what do you have going on there this is um that looks good tonic water with tropical fruit frozen fruit that you buy in those little bags oh yeah yeah it's probably good for you yeah except for the sugar well there's not too much sugar i guess in the tonic water so we are live i'm here with lena hi everybody thanks for having me on again appreciate it lena looking good in the fresh air uh have you been since we last talked i've been well yeah i'm on holidays now so i can't complain i'm on uh construction holidays and so very nice yeah i've been uh getting some stuff done off my task list and i've got more things on my task list that need to get done but uh i like being on holidays i like not having to go to work so i got two weeks have you spent time with the family no my family situation is messed up uh well i'm trying to hear that yeah yeah you'll pray for me and mine with your own special prayers and uh yeah that's sad but um you know i've been i'm not overly social i think you have the same sort of thing you like to be alone yeah you know so uh i'm happy i've got my wife and that's amazing and just we love being uh you know we give each other a lot of space she likes to do her thing and i'd like to do my thing i'm on one end of the apartment she's on the other end in montreal we have apartments that are like bowling alleys like they're really narrow and long and so okay we always make a point to get apartments that have the one office on one end and then a room on the other end so that we can be far apart and do our own thing she's an introvert too huh yeah she's kind of mixed like me i'm mixed uh but we're both leaning i guess toward introversion and we both were kind of eccentric weirdo loner children and bullied at school and that sort of thing and so i'm trying to hear that we well it's a good thing because we learned how to enjoy our own company and how to be creative and all the silver linings right yeah yeah yeah i would not change it for the world for sure because i can't imagine what it's what a hellish nightmare it is to be locked into people pleasing and all that sort of thing um we all do it to a certain extent but uh you know there is that danger when everything is when you're just conforming with everything and you're on that mainstream path i think it's a bit of a danger to lose yourself i think more likely though not getting bullied is probably better overall you would say right yeah it wasn't excessive bullying i mean we're up here in canada it's probably there there were no firearms involved or anything you know yeah yeah canadian bullying is just where they say sorry twice instead of four times yeah yeah well i can relate a bit i mean i definitely experience you know some of just the the social bullying maybe not so much physical but yeah um yeah and i think it's a bigger problem too just with today's age age of the internet age of uh the gig economy like people just don't have as much free time which kind of economy is that our gig economy well maybe that's just the us we're like uh you know service economy okay it's all like contract they're calling you a gig economy now because now you know now you have all of these different um you know part-time jobs no benefits no you know no no nothing and and people have to work it's basically just hustle culture you know it's uh yeah i work as a result of late stage capitalism we could say i got a crappy job with zero benefits i've never had it well i've had jobs with benefits but i hated those jobs so i prefer to have a crappy job that's not this job is it yeah the job i have now yeah oh okay i was gonna ask if you had a day job or not i do have a day job but uh my day job is in construction working in an office and there are no no benefits uh but you know that the only times i ever had benefits when i had a job in the past uh it was crappy government jobs or big really big business jobs i hate that i prefer to work for a small family company which is sort of like what i'm in now and you know you don't have the safety net and the i don't have dental or anything like that or any yeah anything really medical or whatever but i guess here in canada we have our uh medical career right yeah our medical card and i just try to avoid going to the doctor into the hospital as much as possible just because you know they're trying to help but they can also hurt you when they're trying to help you so just try to avoid interventions as much as possible not that i'm paranoid but you know i did have a mess up on my wrist i broke my wrist and they had to do two surgeries and they messed the first one up that's why they had to do the second one so they're trying to help but you know it's complicated and it's just i'm sorry to hear that i i thank you i just you know when i broke my wrist i i told myself it's not broken it's not broken it's not broken it's not broken and for two weeks i was telling myself that but my arm was turning purple and green and all the way up to the elbow oh yeah it was broken and my wife's like i think it's broken you should go to the hospital so finally i went but you probably made a work by waiting so long the doctor said no it's good it's good he said it was good because uh he explained it to me why it was beneficial that i waited i don't know why but i can't remember the reason but all of that to say i'm a little bit hesitant to have medical interventions and down in the states it must be a nightmare with the financial cost because i have a relative who was yeah i was visiting was visiting holidaying down there and uh had a very brief stay in the hospital and it was something like uh it was tens of thousands of dollars tens of thousands of dollars and yeah i've heard testimonies of ambulance drivers who said they feel terrible picking up certain people because they know that they're just just the ride alone is gonna wreck them so it's it's pretty messed up here not gonna lie yeah so how have you been are you on holidays or i can't remember what your situation is no i'm on unemployment i have a shitty job at nordstrom and i was guaranteed you know two weeks in advance scheduling and uh i've got nothing on my schedule right now so what kind of stuff is that is that clothing nordstrom yeah they're a retail clothing store okay uh somewhat like higher end luxury stuff but um yeah so i'm just collecting unemployment and trying to find another job but it's uh it's terrible out here oh boy i don't have a car either so it makes it harder oh boy oh boy oh boy well you said you have a bunch of roommates right i do yeah one of my roommates works at nordstrom actually three of them do wow um one of them is in like the actual sales and then um two others in like the shipping area so and i do like the fulfillment it's like picking orders it's it's a horrible job and we're all wage slaves here so it's i did that in england at a bookstore w.h smith book warehouse so you get the orders and you go fill the orders and go down the aisles and it's you know it's somewhat interesting because the people are all you know transient like just like they're just travelers or whatever that we're just passing through listen to my podcasts and whatnot while i work do you mostly when i slack off ah yeah i'll i'll try and like find places to hide and little nooks and corners yeah yeah so i'll be praying for you that you find a good uh good job i don't know what you're looking for but i don't know honestly i mean i'm i'm kind of disillusioned with the the whole working thing but i want to do something that's meaningful with my life you know i want to contribute to society i just i don't see it as a society worth contributing to in any way and i think any job i can get now is only going to put me further into debt and you know continue to support a system that's uh corrupt i say that because you know capitalism is inherently exploitative like that the way that you make profit is off of the work of other people so i think the whole system needs a revamp yeah we need what i think we need is subsidiary which means that power automatically flows down to the lowest possible conceivable practical level so you know the individual and the family and the neighborhood and the borough and the city do you see that as flattening hierarchies it's just kind of broadly it's not it's not flattening because you know you can have higher levels but they do less and less you know like i have a libertarian from not libertarian but he says that the federal level should only be self-defense and you know defense and a couple other highways and a couple other things like that and i'm not into political philosophy at all so i don't really have opinions but uh you know i think libertarianism is probably oversimplifying a lot of stuff but um yeah the idea the idea of having less power at the higher levels and giving more power to the lower levels i really like that and that's a catholic idea too so i mean i'm in no position to have an opinion about politics just because it's well beyond me i just don't understand don't care but i know that um i don't like the government controlling me or enslaving me and it just seems like those who have power they enjoy it and they rig the system so that it benefits them they're not looking out for me you know what i mean yeah i don't distinguish between government power or other kinds of power right i think that abuse of power in general is a problem yeah and so when i talk about flattening hierarchies that's kind of what i'm referring to right is making the power a level playing field so that the little guy can't get stomped on and i don't see libertarianism as achieving that because the problem with limiting government power is that that gives other power free reign right if you limit the government's power to for instance regulate corporations uh corporate power is going to become the new dominant force right and we kind of already see that in the u.s yeah yeah for sure so i it's a it's an interesting balance between having rules and and power structures that are basically implemented in order to protect against the accumulation of power you know it's um it's a bit paradoxical in that way how you have to use the government to ultimately get rid of the need that the government you know provides a solution for right because ideally or at the end of like a socialist utopia scenario uh we would have anarchism right where we would have no government power overseeing anything because it would all just be organized right we wouldn't have the sorts of inequalities and injustices uh that we have today mostly what i care about is personal freedom and i think that's exactly what you were getting to when you're talking about you know first the individual then the the the family then the community you know i i see that as the same way in which we should prioritize our values right value the individual firsts and their rights uh and then work outwards from there but yeah well yeah we don't have to get into politics but you know it is there's a lot of psychology involved and there's a lot of tribalism and like if i were for example in an airplane and the airplane crashed on a desert island we all survived but there's we just have to live with each other until we get rescued like for years and years and years i would be stuck with a bunch of people that most likely disagree with me about everything and that's just the way it is and so i would end up compromising and going with the the mainstream values and the sort of average joe blow attitudes and i would just be compromising constantly non-stop you know and i could i could i could deal with that like i'm used to compromising i've been married 27 years i know what it is to compromise i'm very happy to compromise but that's kind of what life is it's like if you're part of the mainstream average way of seeing things you're gonna get your way most of the time in a democratic sort of setup where and i'm assuming on this island that people would kind of want to listen to each other and take the majority vote on stuff like that's maybe that's yeah i mean sometimes you can't compromise even on the island you know sometimes you've got to you can bend your morals but everyone has a breaking point you know and then it then it gets violent so um we could divide up yeah obviously we want to protect democracy we want to compromise more than we fight you know we want to work together i just i see it as more i mean i don't see the republican party for instance as like a group that we should be trying to compromise with right because what happened with january 6 i know you haven't been following the the hearings but i mean as far as we can tell trump did try to throw a coup right this was if if they had thought it would have been more successful or could have been more successful i think that they would have tried right and i think that they realized that it wasn't going to work and so that's why trump called it off and that's why there's a lot of this back peddling going on um but like as far as i can tell the republican party is a terrorist organization i mean they are as anti-democracy as as it gets and you can't compromise within a democracy with anti-democratic forces like you agree we can't compromise with with like the nazis right yeah can't i would i do not trust the right any more than i trust the left which is to say i don't trust them at all i just don't trust them at all i don't trust no by the left do you mean the left establishment the democrats yeah i'm talking about those who have power those who have power like i mean you're an individual you're probably identifying with the left and that's fine whatever uh but if ever cheat you were to rise to power then you would necessarily i think you would necessarily be corrupted by that power and then we would go from our little friendship to uh like yeah it's just like that guy is now in the untouchable class of those who have power and have been corrupted by power that's the way i see it um so i hope you're not aspiring to greatness in the political realm well so yeah i mean i guess what what hope do you have in democracy then because it sounds to me like and this is the vibe that i get from a lot of christians is like oh well humans are corrupt humans are fallen our political systems are never gonna work right they're always gonna be flawed yeah and so we gotta we gotta put god in charge and i have a lot of problems with that um you know not not only in that everyone has their own idea of what god wants um and that we have to hash out not what god wants but what people who speak on god's behalf want uh but the other problem is that it kind of goes against the whole free will concept right like if god's gonna put us here as humans to go through this weird experience we're doing right as limited beings it seems to me like the the effort should be on us and it is on us to to well as it says in genesis to go out and and conquer the earth right so yeah i think a lot of people just immediately assume that that should look like a uh theocracy but i think when you actually like get into asking what's the best system for here now because we are stuck on this earth for the time being um that you know until jesus comes back we should have a democracy that that is the most appropriate way to to balance power now i don't know of any better way i mean democracy is not perfect but like did you have a better system i don't have any solutions whatsoever other than each individual trying to be nice trying to be reasonable you know sure compromise don't be an egomaniac or at least if you're an egomaniac try to sort of try to control that so you're not like trampling on people's feelings and on their dignity and uh you know let's try to get along and let's agree to disagree about all the things we disagree about and if we can educate each other let's do so diplomatically and in a friendly manner like let's seek the truth and we're not gonna sound like um those all sound like liberal ideals yeah that all sounds like democracy like enlightenment values like the the sort of thing john locke and then those guys that's yeah i think i disagree with i disagree with some of john locke you know but there's a lot of good stuff there and i don't i don't like i said i don't know enough about political philosophy to really uh take a position i take the this sort of uh position as an individual like what would i want to do and what would i want done to me and uh like how do you treat people there's how do you treat people like you just it's just basic like you have to love and respect people even if you disagree sorry you have to love and respect them period now can you make fun of them and that sort of thing like yeah i make fun of people and i mean i make fun of my wife she makes fun of me and we make fun of everybody but you know as long as it's good hearted and it's light-hearted good-natured fun you know and if someone's extremely sensitive you probably find out pretty quickly they don't like being the butt of your joke and then you take that into consideration other people really like really digging hard with uh with criticisms as a form of bonding whatever like everyone's got their own way the trick is to be sensitive who is the individual in front of you or who is the group in front of you and uh like the group dynamic the group dynamic will be different from the one-on-one dynamics so you and i could be at a barbecue and it's like a completely different set of rules and i'm just wondering hey why is lina acting like that when we speak one on one lean is like this and then it's because there's a group dynamic and like you have to adjust to that so i may be a little bit a little bit autistic like where i don't quite understand all the rules of the social stuff no but it sounds to me like you're you're giving mind to the nuances involved and i appreciate that yeah yeah so like politics the problem with politics and organized religion and you know commerce and business and everything else and journalism and everything else is that people let their own selfish ambition get in the way of the principles that should come naturally in a healthy family or in a healthy society without the principles i have an interesting hypothetical for you sure suppose you were drafted right and you go to war and you find yourself alone on the battlefield separated from your from your platoon or whatever uh and then you know an enemy uh soldier runs over the hill and you both spot each other right and you both raise your guns at each other and you're standing in this standstill and you can see each other right you can you're looking in his eyes he's looking in your eyes and you're both standing there neither of you have pulled the trigger yet do you do you lower your weapon or do you shoot him well i want to lower it i would just like uh what's this is like one-on-one uh this is like we can easily we can easily justify this to our commanding officers you know the war is still going on around you i mean yeah yeah i mean are you gonna be able to like someone's gonna have to be taken prisoner or i would probably something's gonna have to go down i would probably not end up in that situation because i'm you know i i adhere to the just war theory of the catholic church and the rules are very strict and trying to go grab someone's oil or their resources is not a just war i'm sorry it's just not a just war period it's just not so i would your country if your country drafted you and you you thought it wasn't a just war you would um i would object would you conscious would you be willing to would you be willing to face the punishment of like imprisonment or whatever for sure as like a form of protest for sure for sure for sure i mean that's i'm not uh i'm very skeptical of the motivations behind every war that i've seen i haven't i've never seen a war in my lifetime where i thought wow this is so admirable and uh this is so great i wish i could join it i've never seen that i've only i've only been skeptical and said well who's who's profiting financially it's just like no that's i think we're on the same page there too yeah we're on the same page with a lot of things i i really regret to inform you that i i forgot last week that someone booked for uh seven o'clock you're not intruding you're not intruding but we have half an hour to go so okay maybe what we'll do is i can invite this guy in i don't know him but we could do a three-way and then you could say your goodbyes after that if you like that do you like that yeah i'm down yeah let's do it okay but are there other uh more pressing issues that we need to get i'm enjoying the political talk but we could move on to if they're more pressing issues with the natural sciences physics and all that sort of thing right i was thinking about like the the axioms of science and getting into that again yeah because i think that i hadn't really flushed out my my view entirely um but who who wanted to join do you know who it was or i could look it up uh some guy i met on because i might know you might what you might know i said i might know i don't know if it's like a one of the common people that are around like the counter-apologetic circles or okay let me check let me check the check let me check how can i open my window here although you have some pretty interesting guests on i mean you have like quite a quite a mix of people you've had on i'm pretty impressed ragtag crew all kinds of people yeah so i can find out on my twitter here i'll go to my twitter and see i've been meeting people on twitter and uh i have to be honest i invite just about everyone as there's so few people that want to come on and that's why i appreciate you lina one of the reasons is because you're open friendly you're willing to talk uh and you don't agree with uh some of the stuff that i believe but that's fine you are willing to talk adamantly disagree you could say but yeah that's that's the good stuff right no he can still be civil with me which is nice so this guy is brett mitchell and he just got back from tanzania where he married his tanzanian woman so how did i meet him i just i reached out i don't know if the name rings a bell or not but probably not not right now i think he's a regular little guy like me 39 followers on twitter so he's just just a cute little guy i reach out to people just if i see something interesting on their on their twitter you know so uh yeah i'll send him the link for this very same thing and we could do a little three-way chat before before we wrap up was there anything i said um did you listen to the entire tom jump thing i didn't get a chance to no i've got it in my watch later is that the one is that the one uh that triggered you to say hey we should talk about the metaphysics of science is that the video uh i mean i i stopped by briefly and i was mostly arguing about abortion but um no i mean that's that's just what i'm interested in oh that was foreign you were chatting in the live chat right oh my bad yeah no i think i may i might have just missed t jumps entirely then okay because we did talk about science we did talk about natural science and metaphysics and these sorts of things yeah i mean he was on rebecca's stream i think like right before you yeah um which i caught that one and um it was good yeah i mean i like obviously i disagree with him on politics but when it comes to like the the evidentiary um you know the epistemology behind religious claims and and where he comes from i think we're pretty much in agreement also you've seen a lot of his content did you two get it no i i mean i so i got into like the atheist youtube community through the axb uh atheist experience yeah yeah so um i think there was like some small youtube channel called like the agatha foundation or something that had like highlight clips of different speakers so i remember seeing you know a lot of matt a lot of hitchins some other guys um and so i think and i saw t jump there first and then it was a while before i saw him again on modern day debate and so he did a few things there um i think i saw his one on capitalism which i was just that's where i i like first start you know disagreeing with him and looking into his views and stuff but um no i mean i think he's a an awesome addition to the the atheist community i think he's a good speaker he's smart what did you think of him i've always liked him just because he's quirky and uh he gave me a bit nastier vibes this time i've talked i've spoken with him three times twice okay 2019 and then once uh just recently and he gave me uh harsher vibes he wasn't as friendly uh this time he was uh like giving me dirty looks all through the whole interview but that's fine whatever i mean i did wake him up like he was literally waking up like rubbing sleep from his eyes when we started the stream so i you know whatever uh and he i just found out recently that he's diagnosed with autism so he's got some issues with communication and social stuff right which i forgive very easily did you catch my apx uh axp or whatever it is with ideas yeah i actually love that one yeah we could talk about it if you want sure yeah they were they were interesting i had no idea i was expecting matt i didn't always on holidays but uh yeah it was a weird vibe it was really it was really friendly and uh not as aggressive as matt dillahunty was with me but uh you know i yeah it was strange it was a little bit strange what did you think of it well i thought i thought he got a little bit like i don't know if it was triggered or just kind of like uh which guy moddy i guess i don't know he just pushed back on you uh talking over him a bit which i think was just i don't know if that was necessarily like you trying to to step over them and it was just kind of maybe the audio connection or something but i mean i don't know it was weird they they granted for the sake of argument right that the the first cause yeah that was true and then you know they were kind of like okay now what you know well they kept saying oh we're we don't know anything we don't know and explain like we're five years old or whatever i just found that a little bit odd and we don't know about philosophy and whatever and uh trying to take some kind of uh well to be fair i mean the the five ways has been thoroughly discussed on that show so i mean i haven't heard either of those hosts which i think they're both like fairly newer to the show yeah i haven't heard either of them discuss like why they don't accept the five ways and their problems with it but like yeah the way that they kind of just casually threw it all into like the same just first cause argument and then dismissed it or they didn't even dismiss it they were just you know like okay fine we'll accept it and then show us how that gets to yahweh right yeah and i mean i didn't think that you were successful in that but like i kind of wish that they had gotten into like the first cause stuff but yeah yeah yeah but i just appreciate it uh at the end when the what's the the guy there uh the long-haired guy or the short hair guy guy the short-haired guy he calls himself something profit or whatever the apostate yeah yeah yeah i think so i think so but he gave me a nice sort of like thank you and he he he said some complimentary words to me i forget what it was but i was surprised and yeah i appreciate little things like that like i just appreciate that like the humanity it's like uh it doesn't take a lot of effort but it just shows the character and you know even though we probably agree i disagree on 99 of things it doesn't matter like i just look for that i look for that that's what i look for i look for the humanity in my interlocutor and if i get that i'm just melting i'm just like wow this is amazing i don't care about the disagreements and the the things we're arguing about it's like who cares that's just my hobby thinking about ideas you know it's like day to day if we're on the front lines together in some war i'll have his back he'll have my back hopefully and you know it's that humanity it's the bond of humanity that's way more important than any stupid position on any theoretical question and that's the struggle i think with with coming from um well this isn't for all atheists but a lot of atheists were religious at first yeah and so the the deconversion process i mean i don't i can just speak for myself and saying that my religious upbringing was traumatic and that i had a lot of resentment and anger over basically feeling like i had the wool pulled over my eyes my entire childhood you know and you know the sorts of claims about eternal damnation and all these aspects of christianity that i see is really toxic and and really you know authoritarian in nature um that that can upset people you know and it can be hard to to get over that uh emotional aspect of it i still think that they're coming from a a correct place right and it's it's justified anger but when we want to engage in conversations with theists it's not productive you know and so that's definitely an aspect of my life that i've had to mature a lot with um is having these conversations and being able to engage with fascists and and have a civil conversation and explain to them without getting all triggered you know why the why force birth for instance is fascism you know and then it's uh it's hard uh especially when it's topics relating to really important aspects of people's lives um but yeah i definitely think atheists need to in general work on their their optics i i remember mad de la hunty responding to you know basically defending his attitude and his approach to it and he was basically like look it works you know i've got thousands of emails from people saying thank you so much you changed my life you helped me to see the light of reason and then you know let go of my delusions and whatnot and i think that's all good it's just can he do the same thing without being an ass and i think you can right yeah so and i again i'm not trying to like flame him because he is he is one of the best but yeah yeah yeah well i mean i would i would make a distinction again like we did with the politics versus an individual uh you know when you're an entertainer and that's what he is when you're an entertainer uh and you've got a public uh show and you're he goes to the dunks instead of the the compassion sometimes yeah it's just the way it is and like you can have your your tricks and your your persona and all those sorts of things and more power to you whatever right um but uh are you a fan of digital gnosis yeah i really like him but he hates me he hates me i really want to i really want to talk i don't think he likes me either why well we got into this discussion about um well it was basically bread of life rebecca um was you know skeptical about uh morality coming morality being natural right as a product of the natural world and that well essentially her claim was it's impossible that morality is natural therefore it's supernatural right um which is already fallacious but you know i was like fine i'll bite let me see if i can present to you at least a plausible natural explanation for morality right um which is not good to do against uh you know philosophers of ethics and you know people who really looked into this because uh it's really hard to draw like a clean connection between our biology and our psychology you know just it's it gets so much more complicated a lot of the sorts of explanations that people give end up sounding like and i think it's called uh evo psych um he's kind of just explaining broad characteristics of human behavior uh with evolution just doesn't always work um and so and you know i admit i was definitely like not presenting a hundred percent proof that like this is how consciousness developed but i think i successfully presented you know a possible case for naturalist uh origins but um yeah he thought i was just kind of droning on on on high-minded evo psych conspiracy theories or something why does he not like you because i debunked uh his 500 arguments against christianity and when was that was that months ago a couple months ago and uh you know he took exception to that he was he was very pissy about it like um and um you know i don't know it's just like i i i like him i like his face i like how he speaks i like everything about him but i aggravate him just the way i look and the way i speak and everything so it's just like we're completely not excited i like the way that he you know philosophizes i think that he has a very sharp mind i think that he is able to get to the the heart of the different arguments being presented um and more importantly show a lot of the rational incoherence and inconsistencies in a lot of the world views you know i interviewed him when he was christian right do you know no how did that go it was nice i mean he was protestant so obviously i disagreed with a lot of his positions but i mean he was just a soft gentle christian and he was you know in many ways still questioning and seeking and uh vulnerable very vulnerable and very emotional and uh i appreciate that you know and so unfortunately he went to the dark side when i would say the dark side what you would say the lights still searching yeah i don't know where he stands now but uh yeah i think he says he's agnostic so it reminds me it reminds me of a good friend of mine that i recently reconnected with very tentatively because um you know some years ago this is probably six years ago on facebook i made there was an app that will say hey what do you look like as the opposite sex or gender or whatever so i used the app and i looked like a beautiful woman it was amazing and so i posted that and he's like that's not funny you shouldn't make fun of trans people and whatever and i'm just like get over yourself buddy whatever it's an app everyone's doing it why are you giving me a hard time anyway he unfriended me send me a link to that app i want to check it out i'm no longer i've been on facebook for years so i don't know how i'd find it but you know do you know what the app was called i'll look it up i'll look it up look it up i'm sure you'll find a million of these apps but anyway he he got overly sensitive he unfriended me and he wouldn't respond to my calls and like we were pretty close friends you know and so recently he accidentally like he joined uh telegram and i got notifications he's in my contact list on my email and i don't know big brother's watching everything and trying to connect people so he's like he was kind of surprised that i reached out to him on telegram but he begrudgingly said well look i you know i don't agree with your religion i don't agree with you you know you're a homophobia you're a transphobic you're this you're that you're a bigot you're fascist you're all these things yeah and i just i just accepted i just accepted all these uh insults like whatever like i mean you don't know my heart well i wouldn't see those as insult i mean unless he was being insulting with them right he's wrong is he wrong he's wrong i'm not a homophobe i'm not transphobic or not i'm not i think you are well you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you want to get into that or if yeah we could try it we could try i sent a link to my friend so he may join at any time but yeah get into it okay that's fine we can we can drop it at any time but i mean yeah i i definitely think from the different positions that you've that i've heard you say at least i mean to be clear like tran um when we say homophobia we're not talking about a phobia we're talking about a distaste or disdain frankly just seeing homosexuality as a sin i i would say is inherently homophobic okay so it's the word has been co-opted and divorced from the phobia yeah i don't think it's ever meant like an actual fear of like like in the same way as arachnophobia i think when that term first got applied to it the thinking was like oh there's some sort of like underlying stigma or like societal fear that that causes the sorts of um hatred and and like disdain yeah but i don't i don't know i don't hate any human that's that's my no and i i wouldn't charge you with hatred per se but like so again like do you see homosexuality as a sin of course yeah so that alone i would call homophobia okay so i think i think adultery is a sin i think masturbations are saying what am i like am i just a complete bigot because everyone everyone's masturbating and most people are fornicating and committing adultery well so those aren't those aren't protected classes right so like homophobia we we consider to be uh an intrinsic part of yourself right now i i also don't think masturbating is wrong right and so maybe you're just sexually regressive you're not angry with me that i think it's right i'm not angry that you think that's wrong in the same way because it doesn't it doesn't demonize and stigmatize in the same way right when you say that being homosexual is wrong in the same way that murder or rape or fafsa right all these other sins when you lump it in it you're basically saying these people are bad right or at least that's how it comes across because you know you separate the person from the action or like the the desire the the sexual orientation um having the desire there's not a sin to have homosexual inclinations desires and all that oh that's different it's not a sin it's only your treat your free choice to do what you know is wrong and if you don't know it's wrong it's it can't be a mortal sin it cannot be a mortal sin if you don't know it's wrong if you don't know that it's wrong if you don't know that it's wrong listen to me carefully if you don't know that it's wrong you cannot be committing do gay people think it's wrong in your life do you think most gay people i would argue most gay people who aren't you know in the closet or like otherwise religious i think most of them want to be proud of who they are right they don't see it as like a an affliction or like a a curse um and and more importantly they don't see any of the the homosexual actions that you would condemn as bad right like i see murdering sorry about that um did you hear that the motorcycle went past um i don't see homosexual acts as bad in the same way that murder is bad and i don't see any justification why you would other than because god says so one one moment hold that thought hold that thought one moment please is he here no he's he's canceling no tell him if he wants to join in i can hop off on his company he has companies so this this works out obviously this works out nicely all right yeah so uh repeat what you just said about it's not a sin to forget what you said well i mean so what about it is wrong right like murder is wrong in my mind because you're you're hurting someone you're killing someone right and that's just a bad in a number of different ways yeah before before we talk about that i want to go back to what you said about like you know masturbation it's okay to be against masturbation because it's not a protected class of people well in my well it's not okay it's just not it's not um homophobic yeah okay i just want i want you to understand the hierarchy in my mind of all the sexual sins okay you need to you need to understand you need to understand this to properly critique me okay um they're the only people having sex are people who are married and that are open to life and that are giving either a committed relationship lifelong relationship one man one woman not closely related and they're open to for the purpose of reproduction right open to reproduction it's not only for the purpose of reproduction it's also a mutual self-giving and an act of love okay okay okay those are the only people on planet earth having sex or who have ever had sex or who will have sex everything else everything else is a form a rape in your eyes everything else is a form of masturbation so rape is a form of masturbation incessant form of masturbation stretching for masturbation you know bestiality is a form of masturbation so at the top of my of my hierarchy of sexual perversions the umbrella under which everything falls is the broad term masturbation okay well but youtube masturbation as like self-rape right like you're you're mutilating yourself self-abuse yeah self-abuse yeah so i mean it's and you could do it in a group you could call it all masturbation yeah let's just call it all um you know inappropriate like the misuse of sex abuse of sex yeah abuse that's what the word masturbation means to the original greek it was yes abuse so why do you believe that other than because that's what you think god says because of the nature of the human the nature of the woman the nature of the man the nature of the goat that you're trying to have sex with whatever like there's a nature everything has a nature okay so that's what it's all about we've discussed this before you and i have discussed this before the nature everything a screwdriver has nature a screw has a nature a nail has a nature a hammer has a nature and you have to pick the right tool for the job that's it period and i'm fine with that so but i mean so you're saying it's unnatural yeah goes against why but what makes you why do you have your particular understanding of what is and isn't natural well just look at reality look at the fact that every homosexual has a mother and a father a biological mother and a biological father okay look at that fact and then look at the zygote and look at how the zygote came to be it was a male sperm and a female egg that came together right so it's just biology it's basic biology and how did the sperm and you get together well it was the guys part with a woman's part and they fit together so it's just it's it's self-evident if we look at nature it's like the the tribesmen in africa when they were asked what is a woman they said the woman is a female and she can become pregnant potentially without if there aren't defects obstructing that yeah i saw that matt walsh's interview i thought that that was um pretty disingenuous considering you know he went to i don't know if you know about the tribe he went to but i mean incredibly misogynistic incredibly um patriarchal incredibly not the sorts of virtues that we want to uphold as as westerners so i thought it was curious that he went to like to them for his most tribal people right let's be honest like most um third world communities have an understanding of like a an intersex um sort of third third gender category right like most other cultures besides western culture as we call it which is really just european culture um they have concepts of of a third gender right they they have they understand that i think in a lot of contexts it's like a spiritual entity right like the hermaphrodite in um in the greek mythology and and going back a long time i mean this is not i always feel like it the the whole gender construct really is just a product of of western christian thinking um so much as it is biological i mean if you really want to talk about the bio biology of the situation um you know well first of all gay people are are natural right we see gay couples and all sorts of other uh animals and all you know it's it is extremely natural yeah you have to remember that the christian worldview involves a perfect paradise and then disobedience of our first parents and that is a fall from grace and there are many uh certainly the question is how do you determine right so what's natural today what's natural today is i have a natural inclination to be lazy and selfish and to steal and all these sorts of things right so that's natural that is natural and you can see examples of it everywhere even in children but that's not a good thing right so yeah what's what's natural isn't always what's good yeah but you're saying that homosexuality is bad because it's not natural so i mean i just it seems confusing sexual acts are just as natural again your nature right yeah the inclination to for the inclination to sodomy is just as natural as the inclination to theft it's just as natural you can see it just as much it's rampant it's rampant in this whole world but again the reason you said it's wrong when i asked you why else besides god said so the answer you gave me was well it goes against their nature but now you're saying it is natural no i'm saying that in this fallen world according to your definition of natural which is a perverted definition which says that if it's if it's happening therefore it's natural so every all the evil things all the evil acts that are happening are natural according to that secondary definition that you gave you've strayed from my definition which is what what is the purpose what is the purpose of man what is the purpose of woman and uh you you've strayed from that and you you you're using this yeah let's let's use the word purpose then because you you now still have to distinguish between the intended purpose and how it actually is right and i can do that in all of these other cases like for rape or murder or theft right all these other cases where we say yeah that's natural but like that's not the intended right or that's not the preferable outcome or situation it's not ideal and it's harming people yeah exactly right it's not ideal it's harming people there's we can point to all these negative effects that it has i just you can't do the same thing with homosexuality [Music] okay go on well it's i feel uncomfortable uh you know rubbing your face in it but it's just like you can google it what are the what do the bigots say uh the dangers of homosexuality you'll get a big list right so look at what yeah let's go through those it's distasteful to me but if you want to you can lead the church well i don't want to like you know make you feel uncomfortable but if we're gonna have a serious conversation about your homophobia i would just say i would just say i would just talk about the family and about intimacy sexuality it's more than obvious that a man cannot impregnate a man or a goat or a greed a pencil shark or anything else again so what is the relationship between being able to to conceive of child and whether this action is moral or not you can hammer a screw into the block of wood but it's better to use use the screwdriver it's better it's more natural would you condemn someone for using the nail in like a in a moral sense for using a hammer to hammer in a screw no for using or yeah whatever you know whatever the role you're using the wrong tool i would just give advice if you want my advice use the screwdriver to put the screw into the board don't use the hammer because it's perverted it's perverted to use the hammer to hammer the screw into the board it it seems to work it seems to work but it's perverted and it may lead to other deranged and perverted activities so just be careful your analogy is falling apart david there's i mean there's a thing you think using a nail to to hammer a hammer in or whatever your analogy i mean i don't see how that's perverted i mean it just it doesn't you know when i think of like molesting children or like okay have you ever have you ever seen something like that have you seen anyone drive stick for the first time that is unsettling it's unsettling and it's just not how you change gears in a stick shift car and you know you have to be trained how to do it because if you're driving automatic your whole life you're just going to grind the gears so that that grinds on my gears and it grinds on my gears when you know uh my wife analogy that's a different analogy though right in that situation i would say there is a risk to using the wrong gears right there's not only the risk of crashing and injuring yourself or you know just damaging your car and not being able to go to work um but you're putting other lives at risk on the road right like there's a lot of negative factors that go into that yeah so can you elaborate a bit on on those issues like how is it that the misapplication of sex in terms of homophobia like what are the specific outcomes that are negative in your mind well it's all it's all connected to everything that will attack and destroy the fabric of society which is supposed to be so we have pornography we have adultery we have gay sex we have all kinds of stuff that takes away from the integrity of the family which is the the basis of society which is the the fabric of society and it's basically restricted it's destructive to society because it's a little bit more specific can you get a little bit more concrete for me sure like let's talk about homosexuality and let's let's yeah well i mean it's just happening there's damage being done to the individuals that are involved and if they god forbid if they adopt a child that innocent child is going to be corrupted and confused and it's not good that child is not going to have what is natural what is natural in a family is to have your biological mother and your biological father and that's going to do damage not having access to that it's just not natural and it's just not good again i i get that you think that that's unnatural but considering we have different definitions of natural you're gonna have to give me something else you haven't provided me any reasons as far as i can tell to accept your understanding of what is and isn't um you know pervasive or corruptive like i'm just i'm hearing you say oh it's not natural like oh it's it it's detrimental to like family values and stuff and i'm just i'm not seeing any of that and i i want to see where you're coming from let's just let's just keep it really simple in a in a clear-cut example of a child who has two possible futures one possible future is a loving mother and father who are his biological parents the other scenario the other possible scenario is an equally loving same-sex couple which one do you think is objectively absolutely eternally and immutably better well i don't know which one's going to be eternal i don't think parenting lasts forever but we're talking about i'm talking about the moral judgment when you make a moral judgment this this situation is better than that one it's not it's not a it's not uh a subjective opinion it's not relative it's not temporary i might even say the gay couples better simply for the fact that they're more likely to be liberal and still but we're setting up we're setting up a situation we're setting up a situation where everything else is exactly identical the only thing that's different is over here we have biological parents over here we have a same-sex couple that's the only difference but what what would be the difference then well is there any benefit to having a child raised by its biological mother and father yes or no if you don't believe that then you're not going to understand anything about my worldview at all if we have two all else being equal situations yes then obviously i don't see the difference right and that's that's the problem there's no value in being there's no value to being a biological parent whatsoever in your worldview there's no value to that whatsoever the fact of being a biological parent to a child is nothing for you it's absolutely nothing it adds nothing you can raise the child right right i could come up with hypotheticals no everything else is equal but is the fact of being the biological parent is does that add value to that child yes or no everyone i think agrees that there is value in having a connection with your family with your roots with your genetics with your culture with everything where did it come from people people are very disturbed i have a sister who's adopted i can tell you it is a significant factor who are my real parents i always wondered who are my parents what were they like i did some research i found out oh my mother was she lived down here and she did this and that and she had this problem in that problem whatever people want to know they want to be connected to their biological parents they want to be connected to their family they want to be connected to the roots they want to be connected to their heritage and to deny that is ridiculous it's just absolutely ridiculous that's not what they said right okay so all things being equal all things being equal do you see the value now of the biological parents okay you can't be like all else being equal and then throwing a bunch of other situations that would make you equal well i mean so everything you mentioned right is like a product of the fact that like that's how our society is structured right like the fact that we have such a close connection to our kin is largely due to the fact that if you're not connected to your kin historically speaking you're dead right like that there's a deep instinctual connection between biological parent and kids right and i'm not going to deny that but there's a big difference between that you know instinctual or emotional or what have you need for for understanding your origins or your your connection to to your kin right and having your your biological parents as your parental figures right like there's a lot of of um adopted kids to gay parents who who do know their their biological parents right and it turns out that their biological parents are pieces of who didn't want them and right and so it's like that's why i said all things being equal all else being equal all else being equal right so we can't we can't use the cheap example you can't use the cheap example of the crappy biological parents and the wonderful same-sex couple because that's that's just not fair i'm saying all else being equal because i'm trying to isolate the fact of biological parenthood that there's something there undeniably we all know it there's something there of value and you're robbing the kids of that right and it's that value that as soon as you say all else being equal you should be eliminating that value as well right because basically you're saying what you're saying is it's just it's just a construct it's a construct all the things that i point to that i think have value you say are a construct of society and if we change society we can look back on that as backwards and old-fashioned and the future the future is it takes a village to raise a child and you can raise any healthy liberal pair or group because there's nothing to there's nothing to prevent there's nothing to prevent polyamory and polygamy there's nothing to prevent that from your point of view it's absolutely no reason to cling to this old-fashioned idea of a couple being the parents why not have a throuple and we're seeing this in the mainstream media now we're seeing this in the mainstream media in the entertainment we're starting to see polygamy creep in again polygamy is i would argue is natural right it's it's the christian concept of marriage that's unnatural yeah you just say that you have to say that you have to say that but that's the reality of his of history right like before we before we were even civilized right back when we were monkeys uh i don't believe it it wasn't polyamorous it was more like the the alpha male of the tribe gets all the women right like i mean you're painting a very um i don't want to say whitewashed but definitely like a revised history um of how humans have made it yeah i'm a young earth creationist don't forget point i'm a young creationist right a young writer yes so we're operating from from different understandings of history but yeah i think our disagreement about what's natural is really the the key contention here right because when you say all else being equal but biological parents have all of these intrinsic values to them i'm i'm looking at everything you're saying and i'm pointing out how those are exactly the things that would make it not equal right and look you can look at you can look at examples of experiments that were done that try to live out and make a reality out of your fantasy and it is a fantasy it's a demonic fantasy that biological parenthood is only a social construct and all the value that's reflected into that yeah it's it's a complete fantasy it's i'm telling you right now it's an ontological metaphysical reality that the family is one woman one man not closely related committed in a lifelong relationship self-giving love open to procreation that's the reality and your fantasy about it doesn't matter who raises the children they've tried that they've tried that in hippie communes they've tried it in christian perverted christian cults they've tried it everywhere it ends in disaster it ends in mental illness it ends in addiction and all kinds of disaster now you can explain that away any way you want but i explain it by saying they were perverted they went against nature and they were punished by uh karma and by uh by the justice for god okay and and i mean at that point you would have to assess which explanation is superior i'd say whereas you're just kind of going off say i would say good luck with that experiment if you want to try if you want to try it good luck with that but don't invite me into that group because that's going to be a disaster earlier point like plenty of cultures already have been and do try it and and one successful one can you point to one successful yeah i would argue there's plenty of societies that are more successful than the model we have so one great example would be like sweden right they the way that they raise their family well first of all they have a stronger traditional family system right which which i'm in favor of not because of its biological structure but because of its interpersonal structure right but they also have a number of other societal programs going on that aid in exactly what you said a village raising the children right um the the fact that they send their kids to walk to school with the other kids the fact that they have um these these group projects that kids engage in with the community that are you know separate projects for them right the way that they organize their um playgrounds and and schools and and everything right they they have a far more interconnected uh community i would say okay i'm reading right now the swedish culture the family the nuclear family that means biological mother biological father and the children is the most common household unit while the two-parent health school household with children is still typical there is a high rate of single-parent households so there's nothing there's nothing radically different about this exactly but do you see how i'm distinguishing the the biological setup that you think is is what's important here from the actually important things which are the values that that setup provides right yeah i'm all in favor i'm all in favor of uh you know these structures and rules and like the the different uh thing it's not possible to get the same values from a same-sex couple and i'm saying well not only is that not evidentiarily supported but i would argue as society becomes more communal that it'll be more it'll become more balanced the the value that a biological kin provides will be more or less what the community provides right and and again we're not going to be able to change intrinsic biological instincts and that's how you were somewhat equivocating between sex and gender by the way um gender is a social construct sex is biological yeah and it's not and it's not a um uh it's bimodal it's not it's not one or the other uh not to interrupt but maria is in the chat hello maria maria says how long has the swedish model been in place so i'll let you answer that briefly i have no idea okay probably a long time considering how many wars they're able to avoid but yeah we're we're not going to make a lot of uh headway really with this line of uh questioning whatever why they have a better social cohesion is because they have less uh societal struggles right they're wealthier they're more homogenous there's a number of different reasons why uh they would they would handle childbearing better than here in the states the socialization of the child is very important and you know friendships and other families and community all these things no one's denying that what i'm denying is that we can throw away the biological parents without paying a price for that a very very high price for the individuals involved and for the society that's what i'm saying we didn't have same-sex parent like no one's arguing to throw away or like destroy the family it's just allowing same-sex couples to have families too is only beneficial in all the aspects that you're talking about right and the same-sex couples that live in sweden i'm sure are a lot happier there than they would be here because of because of the the demonization because of the rampant homophobia yeah we can agree to disagree we can agree to disagree i i love you i respect you i disagree with you and hopefully you yeah um until you provide me with reasons to see homosexuality as a bad thing i'm still going to see you as homophobic go for it all right i've been called i've been called worse i've been called worse but you know when you see when you see a real homophobe and you put them next to me you'll be able to spot the difference you can spark the difference you can spot the difference don't pretend you can't you can spot the difference don't pretend you can't i don't distinguish who's real or not but like yeah you're not calling for for the death penalty or anything like like some christians here in this country do yeah i'm pro-choice with everything i'm even pro-choice with abortion like choose choose choose but choose wisely for god's sake choose wisely that's it i thought you were pro-life i am pro-life that's why i want you to choose life i want you to choose life but i do want you to choose i do want you to choose i do i don't want you to be forced i don't want you to before i do not want you to be forced i want you to choose but i want you to choose life choose life and that's that's with everything everything i think we're a hundred percent on the same page there right like i don't see abortion i mean it's a medical procedure so like in that sense it's good but like no people you know ideally no one would be having abortions right yeah um yeah the old slogan the old slogan was rare and safe or whatever it was you know yeah well that's good we're both we're both against forced birth and i like that so so am i a fascist still so like there's 14 commonalities of fascism right okay um and so you know i don't know how many you'd have to score on to like be considered a fascist you're pretty fast and loose with calling me a fascist for someone doesn't know the 14 points come on man i came pretty fast and loose with the insults i i don't want to be black and white with it i i do want to call it out where i see it right but i i don't see it and like either you called it out you called it out before you knew the nuance to my position what did you see where you see how rash you were in your judgment do you see that no with regards to your homophobia that you still seem to be i'm pro-choice i'm pro-choice i'm pro-choice you want to adopt you want to adopt a baby as a same-sex couple that's your choice i'm pro-choice approach the moral opinion that you have about it right it's not outright fascism but it falls in line with fascistic tendencies right like there's a reason why the nazis were anti-gay there's a reason why they banned abortion right like you're all of your reasoning might be different but all the outcomes still land you on the same side do you see yeah but i'm not i'm not out there i'm not i wasn't voting to overturn roe v wade i wasn't even excited when they overturned roe v wade it's just like whatever that's the problem that's the law the fascism isn't the radicals who are extreme the problem is the the moderate right like the the moderate nazi was the real problem because they just kind of let it happen you know um and it wasn't democratic it was um you know the the prime chancellor elected hitler right so it was it was kind of the same shady business we had with with um what trump was trying to do but i'm looking out for the kids i'm looking out for the kids the innocent the most vulnerable and you're really letting loose fast and loose with the accusations of my nazi and i'm a fascist and sort of thing you're free you're free to do that i just hope you know that it doesn't seem very moderate it doesn't seem very liberal and moderate you know the year by those lights you you are um an enlightenment thinker right by some other means you are a fashion right it's not black and white it's not your one or the other it's you may or may not represent tendencies which follow along the implication if we read between the lines of your virtue signaling that what we read between the lines is that you lina you are not in any way shape or form a fascist you are not you're above that you're above that i disagree no i'm an american all right like at the very least i'm complicit in a global hegemonic power which has a number of highly authoritarian tendencies right like the supreme court alone um so like yeah no i i definitely have my own uh moral charges against me that i i accept and i am trying to to fight against right like i think that my political activism is a part of that um but like no like i consider myself a vegan i still eat meat sometimes because i'm poor and i have to get whatever food i can and it just so happens that all the vegan options of places are more expensive and usually the cheapest thing is is the chicken dish so i don't see it hypocritical of me to point out the farming industry and say you know this is genocide you know the the food industry is is corrupt and needs to be reformed and yet still recognize that like my individual personal actions don't really affect that right like whether i eat meat or not isn't going to change the farming industry what's going to change the farming industry is maybe how politically active i am and whether i can help create that change you know well if there's no demand they won't be making money off and they won't be interested so you are contributing to the demand i got a question i got a question from maria she says what is lina's opinion on surrogacy is exploiting low-income women as biological resources what's your opinion on that did you understand the question right um basically getting paid to give birth to someone else's kid or yeah or even just um selling your ovaries or your sperm right like i see all of this as um capitalist exploitation yeah yeah capitalism ruins everything poor women uh maria says no poor women okay well i'm guessing even they would do that or if they're poor they need the money so like yeah that that that is exactly the the type of capitalist exploitation it's exploitation yeah yeah yeah because i mean if they if they were receiving um their basic human rights right right to have free food health care housing right all the things that is that a human right to have free free food give you um but don't right uh if they had all of those things then they they wouldn't need to go sell their bodies in such a way and again i see that as the same way with all of work right whether it's um being a surrogate parent or whether it's being a sex worker or whether it's being um you know a worker at a factory would you sell your body on the street if you could make a lot of money doing that i'm sorry would you personally be willing to sell your body to ugly old men for money if it were profitable and easy just i'm asking asking for a friend it depends on how dire my situation is right right now right now like you're looking for work is that an option is it an option no why not because i'm fortunate enough to not have to to look for such work i can make money other ways okay but if i'm very privileged in a lot of ways okay i'm just wondering do you do you see it as an undignified way to make money and exploitation no sex work is real work i just i see america's demeaning and dehumanizing you do see it you do see it as dehumanizing and exploitative i i i don't see it as shameful or dehumanizing on the part of the worker no right the the worker is the one who's the victim they're the one being coerced into having to sell themselves right the owners um that's not the same case the johns and the pimps yeah so i mean it's it is dehumanizing um the the exploitation of capitalism is inherently degrading and dehumanizing but you know victims are going to do what they have to do and i'll i will never condemn someone for doing what they see as you know best for them in the circumstances that they're in you know yeah like we're all trying i might even say you know it's a fallen world so maria asks do you see that surrogacy uh situation as human trafficking is that is that stretching i mean fire for you yeah i mean so that's the that's the the fine line with consent right like obviously if they're not consenting to it but that is just straight up um you know rape and torture and all and all the rest yeah it's capitalist exploitation enslavement in the same way no right it's not physical bondage but it is a sort of bondage um and so yeah you i think we can differentiate the the severity levels saint paul said if you if someone doesn't work neither should they eat so uh that seems to contradict what you said about free food being a human right yeah right so i mean that that is a pragmatic take right if we're on a desert island um and it's it's work or survive or work to survive rather right um i think that if you're being lazy and then you know you don't get the same access right i'm fine with that but we lived most decadent you know the richest country in the world we could we could have no homeless people and not even notice the money coming out of out of the federal budget right like this is the reason why there's homelessness and poverty under capitalism is because capitalism benefits from homelessness and poverty right it's a unique situation that that capitalism actually perpetuates because the owner class wants a bottom line right they want a a low desperate working class the very bottom rung to be able to to pull from right and having an unemployment having some percentage that's unemployed keeps them desperate it keeps them low it keeps wages down right there like there's a number of reasons why um having it the way we have it is beneficial to the owner class right um but i mean this is all like separate from from human rights like even if we looked on the island example yeah right everyone still has a right to free food free health care free education yada yada they're just not going to get it because they're on a desert island right and so in that situation we would have to triage and and make accommodations right and if you're not helping to work then we might not be able to accommodate you the libertarians say that when you take something that's not a human right and you declare it as a human right then the hospital worker becomes a slave and it gets exploited and the person that does all these other services for you prepares your food they're now enslaved and they're being exploited by you because they have no choice but to uh serve you these things that are not human rights but which have been declared as human rights well now now let's be clear right like that that is the case right now right like the reason why fast food workers have the job that they do is because if they didn't they would be homeless and they would starve right if that weren't the case if we provided everyone with free food free education free health care yada yada one that would free up a lot of job mobility people would be able to actually work the jobs they want to work um but two are you joking who would work if they had free food and free shelter give me a break this crazy myth of like oh we have to threaten people with with death otherwise they won't want to do anything like this this is probably the oldest and most pernicious myth of capitalism and it's completely false and i think it's actually exactly backwards i think that once you take care of the bottom half of the maslow hierarchy of needs right if you think of your pyramid where you you take care of shelter and healthcare and all these survival needs that frees people up to actually like contribute to society right like think of all the homeless people that could have jobs right now and could be working if only we gave them a place to sleep and and some food to eat yeah right there are many dirty jobs connected with providing people with these basic human rights needs and who's gonna do those who's gonna do those dirty jobs who's gonna clean out the sewer when it gets clogged up who's gonna do that if you've got everything taken care of who's going to say hey i could just stay at home in my air-conditioned luxury suite with the free food and everything else and watch tv or i can go unclog the city sewer who's going to make that decision nobody right i i completely disagree not not only is sitting at home doing nothing uh incredibly unsatisfying i mean this is that is the sign of of mental uh you know mental health problems not not a sign of a healthy living right but but to your point of like doing these jobs that are required of society these are exactly the roles that we should be um heroizing right that we should be admitting that we should be glorifying right the fact that our garbage men are you know paid i mean they're actually paid pretty well compared to other jobs right but like the fact that our like our front-line workers are treated with such indignity and disrespect um yeah it just boggles my mind that people think like oh we have to we have to hold people under like the whip and and keep them desperate and and coerced into into working otherwise people aren't going to want to like contribute to society like no i could see a society where being being a plumber right being someone who provides great value to the community is like something that people would do for free you know people would be doctors for free right just for the chance to like be respected in the community and and um yeah but i mean but people can't do that because they can't survive unless they uh go to work right and so people end up not doing what they want doing what they have to do and these these dead end jobs that don't provide any value right most of american economies is really not like doing anything right like the whole gig economy the whole service industry we could get rid of all of it right we don't need to have all these different restaurants we could just have the food shipped to you directly right you could get your drone shipment of grocer every month by the government for free and and do away with all of these useless nine-to-five jobs and read all that work into something useful you'll own nothing and you'll be happy so um you know i can guarantee you i can guarantee you sorry i have to correct you on this because again these these are the pernicious lies that are told by capitalism that completely misunderstand what socialism means right socialism is not that you'll own nothing and you'll like it that's late stage capitalism right where the owner class where the one percent who's monopolized everything and accumulated all the power because that's what happens when winner takes all they will own everything and you will you will subscribe everything out right you'll live on the company town and you'll have you know you'll own nothing whereas in a socialist system the owner sorry the the workers own the means of production right and we've never had this by the way this is like this is a pretty radical thing to consider that the workplace should be as democratized as the government right the fact that that the boss has authoritarian control over what happens in the workplace is like having a dictatorship in government i mean it's they're different kinds of power right one is government power one is corporate power but the outcome is the same the worker class owns nothing so it's radically different to put the means of production into the hands of the workers to democratize the workplace um to allow the workers to actually receive what they make and to own what they make to own what they produce like that is a deeply libertarian value and it's it's really only upheld under socialism the current system we have now you do not own the product of your labor your boss does right and their boss does and it goes up the chain to where you get nothing and then ceos get another couple hundred million onto their their bonus uh maria is suggesting you look into distributivism distributism distributism have you heard about it you can look into it i don't know what it is distributors it sounds like things are getting distributed or redistributed i i can just promise you i can promise you if for whatever reason uh free food and shelter and all these sorts of things get declared a human right and it gets implemented and i'm getting food well they are human right nobody if it happens i'll be very happy you can call me mentally ill all you want that's fine i'll be at home with my wife doing my little hobbies and reading my books and doing whatever and i will not be volunteering to go clean up the sewer i will not be volunteering to do any of the dirty jobs that are necessary to make society run including providing all of these free goods and services i will not be volunteering for that i will be enjoying the good life at home that's me being honest i'm being honest with you david what if as a plumber instead of your boss making most of the money from your work what if you made a hundred percent of of the work that you put into your plumbing right what if you owned the pipelines as a worker right you had a collective ownership of the the the actual things you're working on right one you would make more money right uh two you would have more say over how the job is done right um like i i everything about making plumbing for instance socialist just seems like it would make the job better it would make the job more appealing the one word the one key word that makes me cringe is collective you will own as part of a collective well it's just like that desert island thing it's like yeah yeah yeah but you know like uh we're on the desert island and there are only a limited number of coconuts and it's like okay i'm the coconut harvester and you know this is it's like there's always going to be competition there's always going to be one-upmanship there's always going to be a sabotage there's always going to be jealousy rivalry there's always going to be you know i don't see it as a rosy uh as a rosy scenario like being part of this workers collective and all this sort of thing and you've got to say and it's yeah my little voice against all the other plumbers it's like what it's it's the same it's the same stuff man it's the same it's the same morons that you have to deal with day-to-day it's the same morons are you suddenly going to make everyone enlightened and everyone kind and generous and selfless like because that's what's required for for me to buy into uh some uh human nature human nature human nature we're selfish i get that but right now the plumbers do not make the money from their work right like there is a one percent owner class in in the plumbing industry as in every other industry right the the ceo who doesn't do any plumbing at all is making millions right do you think that's fair do you think that someone who does absolutely no work should make money from other people well i don't know i mean i'm assuming uh that rich people work hard too in their own way i don't know what do i know but uh you know what are they doing what are they doing laying around counting their money like i'm pretty sure they're worried i'm pretty sure they're worried sick about all the things they're responsible for and they're trying to manage it right i mean that's why i'm not that's not why i'm not climbing the ladder to be part of their ranks because it's just it's the last thing i would want is to be responsible for all these livelihoods and to deal with all the problems and to be invested and to have all of the risk and all that sort of thing it's like no thank you i'd rather be at the bottom i'd rather be a slave because i don't want the nightmare i'd rather sleep at night work hard during the day sleep at night instead of worrying about all these families i've got to feed and all the machinery that's getting obsolete and breaking down and rusting and everything else and i want that too right but my point is that the manager who runs the facility is not the ceo right the uh every stage that's important and relevant to the actual work that's being done is not where the money's going right in most of our industries the money is going to people who haven't even been on the sales or like haven't even been in the factory they don't you know they don't follow what's going on most rich people what they do is they figure out schemes to get richer to make loopholes in government no i'm not even kidding like like that's really mostly what the owner class that i'm talking about engage in they they live on their yachts and they they waste a bunch of gas flying around and uh you know live up their luxurious luxurious lives and then they enforce policy you know and they they spend with their money right they donate to political campaigns um towards making sure that the government ants can't take their money so i mean all of the problems that that you're pointing to i'm like yeah these are this is theft this is wrong right this is like the evil greed of human nature and making it so that the workers own what they produce is making things more fair yeah i don't know what i think about when i think about the the elite and those who are high up in with power and money and that sort of thing i just pitied their souls because you know this life is very fleeting and it passes by so quickly and then they're going to meet their maker and this is of course from my christian perspective they're going to end up either in heaven or hell and it's just harder for the rich man to enter it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle so that's what i think i i think immediately of my sympathy for these poor these poor people uh who are wealthy and powerful because it's it's more challenging for them to get to heaven that's what i think let's save them let's save them from their their wretched ways by taking their money away and to the people who deserve it yeah let's flatten these hierarchies it's a big project you're a young you're a young person so you can pour all your energy into that and your optimism and uh i would say your naive fantasy but i encourage you to to fight for justice and goodness and all this sort of thing so i applaud you for that i'm going to let you go i am going to let you go now because i want to spend time with my wife no offense to you well thank you for having me on again i really appreciate it yeah we're going to get up it's unusual we're going to get up early tomorrow and go to the country so that's why i want to sort of spend some time with her and get some get to bed early but a real pleasure as always talking to you and stay true thank you very much we'll talk soon and uh god bless you bye