CVS Live Guest - 2022-11-11 - Don Johnson

Author Streamed Friday November 11th, 2022

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CVS Live Guest - 2022-11-11 - Don Johnson

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Don Johnson is a former Evangelical Protestant and evangelist who entered the Catholic Church in 2015. He made an amazing and touching documentary called "Dysconnected" and has recently published a book called Twisted Unto Destruction: How ‘Bible Alone’ Theology Made the World a Worse Place. www.donjohnsonministries.org.


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so we are live I'm here with Don Johnson how are you doing doc I'm good thanks for having me on David very exciting to meet you you were kind enough to accept my invitation which was kind of random a guest uh not a guest but a friend from my podcast uh asked me to reach out to you and I didn't didn't know anything about you and you accepted and not only did you accept what you sent me a a link for your documentary we're going to talk about that is amazing we're going to talk about that but first I want to uh have you just talk a little bit about yourself your background especially with to do it has to do with religion your childhood how are you raised you're a fellow Canadian by birth so maybe just talk a little bit about uh little Dawn as a little child in Saskatchewan and your first inklings that there's a God and there's such a thing as religion just talk about your early experiences so I actually grew up my youngest memories are in the Wilds of far Northern Alberta actually my dad was a church planter with the Canadian Sunday school mission which I maybe still around I think they changed their name but I think they're still around and so uh strong Evangelical family that I greatly appreciate very bible-centered we you know memorized thousands of Bible verses and went to uh you know Prairie High School in three hills and did that whole thing um so yeah I had I had a great upbringing in western Canada we uh had a dairy farm in Saskatchewan for a while and then um yeah I mean I I was I guess I would say I was always um Christian did my little Rebellion thing in uh in your teenage years but in my early 20s I actually was driving from a hockey game in southern Saskatchewan back home hit a patch of black ice on a bridge slid sideways flipped my little GMC black short box truck over several times it got thrown out actually into the snow bank and woke up in the hospital and realized you know what if that had been it you know if I had been dead um looking back what have I really done with my life and it was really like a clarifying moment for me and so I told God you know from that because I couldn't move actually I woke up I was like paralyzed um I'm like well if if you save me or if you don't whatever but the rest of my life we're gonna just devote to you and I wasn't paralyzed a few hours later I was able to get up and um yeah from that point on I actually soon after moved to California and have been in California basically ever since that's been 30 years ago now uh working and we went and worked some inner city missions I got into philosophy and apologetics started writing some books started my own Evangelistic organization sort of Billy Graham style did all that and along the way um was doing a lot of radio actually debating atheists and this sort of thing along the way I really had to dig into church history dig into my philosophy of scripture and how it was how I was really like backing some of these arguments up and I was surprised as I dug in as many others have been dug into history and scripture a little bit deeper that in fact the answers to my questions were the Catholic church so oops much much to my chagrin much to my chagrin because that really sort of upset the apple cart in many ways I mean I was literally working at an Evangelical Church as a college Pastor I have a Ministry I'm basically completely dependent on the donations of you know fellow evangelicals and here I am like whoops I'm gonna become like but uh so 2015 I entered the the Catholic Church actually and um along the way I had actually written not only cut me off whenever you want I'll just ramble here for a bit but I had I had written an apologetics book for uh Baker actually not that a little bit before my conversion how to talk to a skeptic and having just finished that I knew I'd have to provide something to my supporters and my family explaining this and I was just like I don't really want to write another book right now and I had a buddy here in Hollywood who made films and I I went and had coffee with him one day and I'm like I think we need to let's see if we can make a movie Let's Make a documentary about people who convert to Catholicism and he was not very excited about it to be honest but um I talked him into it and we scrounged together enough money to uh take a little trip out to Austin Texas where there happens to be a lot of great Catholic converts for whatever reason and we we interviewed a bunch of them and put a little trailer together and that turned into my first film that was what got me into into filmmaking it's called convinced and to this day I mean rcia classes around the country uh use it it's been a pretty I mean for an independent film it's um it's been great um and yeah I think so so then since that time I have been um I mean doing a lot of different things teaching and stuff but uh filmmaking have now made three feature-length films I got a new book out just a couple weeks ago with Catholic answers um so it's an interesting uh yeah it's been an interesting amazing yeah God has been using you it's amazing I mean I'm embarrassed I'm always embarrassed of how little I'm doing for God but it's it's amazing uh to see I guess they're little flowers and big flowers and daffodils and daisies and I'm just one of the little ones but uh it's amazing it's amazing it's amazing what God can do through uh someone who turns over their will as you did and so I congratulate you on that and it's amazing I want to talk a little bit about your parents and your siblings and your friends how did they react uh where are they now in their Journey are they part of the convinced documentary they came to see the fullness of Christianity yes or no yeah no no in fact um that was I mean that was a struggle right to um with for my family I mean they're awesome how many siblings you have I have two sisters uh and married four kids and so it was yeah it was a struggle really I'm not and not uh you know of course it's going to be a struggle I mean we were just a very strong Evangelical family so no I mean none and none of them have you know followed me into conversion uh even today but we're all still very close and and it has become over the years it has become um I will say much better as they have realized oh okay so don actually didn't turn suddenly insane um like maybe maybe some of his maybe some of his arguments were actually valid and I mean I get it I you know it's a that's a tough thing for your sibling or son your daughter to you know it feels like you're rejecting your your youth you know it feels like you're rejecting I mean I I continually told them I'm not rejecting anything this is this is a fulfillment of what is just the continuing of the path you know it's not I'm not turning my back on any of this um it's just that I yeah I see it as the Fulfillment the continuation and so it's I mean it's great that my families are awesome but it was yeah it was definitely I mean still I I haven't uh ever covered uh recovered uh like financially you just give up certain things but it's not good how would you characterize because I'm not too well informed about the different denominations I was raised United Church of Canada which is very very popular in Canada it's the most popular one it's also probably one of the most Progressive or left or woke or whatever they should have they even have an atheist Minister now I interviewed her Greta regreta whatever her last name is vosper I think Greta vosper anyway I don't have a firm grasp on all the different uh denominations pres what do Presbyterian Church as a child United Church I went to uh Anglican Church at one point there's so many different Anglican churches but what are the evangelicals what unites all evangelicals and what makes them different from the other Protestant denominations in your estimation in your experience yeah so I mean I grew out of what I would call the revivalist movement which an American movement that moved North um where you're really rejecting as much institutionalism as possible so we we would look at the United churches and the anglicans as you know way way too liturgical and institutional it was very much you know you and Jesus in your Bible yeah out on the frontier and walking the sawdust Trail and getting people to say the prayer and and that whole thing and actually the Canadian Sunday school mission um in some ways to their credit I feel like would and this might be I actually don't know much about their current state but um in the past they were very focused on evangelism church planting going into communities this is why we were so far north like we were way up in the beyond the pavement sort of thing in the 70s you know Northern Alberta and they would plant a church they'd send some people in uh people like my father would go in plant a church and then hand it off and they would actually hand it off to various denominations sort of like whoever wanted to come in so it was it was an interesting thing uh that you know they were they were very concerned about just getting the gospel to people and getting them saved they didn't have any sort of high ecclesiology is what I would say um they they did have some doctrinal distinctives like the 1970s was a very big time for uh you know pre pre-trib post Mill like pre-tribulation post-millennial eschatology like Jesus is going to come back uh at a particular we didn't set dates but it was a very you know ordered sort of pattern that we thought was going to happen and you know the 70s was a very um big time for that sort of thing in the 80s so yeah that part they were strong about um their idea of church church not so much our our charismatic's part of the Evangelical movement I would yeah I would say sure yeah that that uh your charismatics is very individualistic it's an experiential based in many ways um so you know it would grow like historically your John Wesley's would have been like even though he's a Methodist but out of that sort of heading out into the frontier and preaching the gospel and the Billy Sundays the Dwight Moody's the Billy Grahams who are out there just getting Souls saved that's that's that tradition who who are your Heroes today in the non-catholic among the non-catholic preachers like is Billy Graham a good guy he's one of the good guys oh I yeah I mean I've always liked Billy Graham I mean I I although um in my new book it's a Shameless plug here but my new book I have I have quite a section on Billy Graham actually and it's not this one is not in a positive way like Billy in some ways Billy Graham especially with the segregationist movement and racism in America he in some ways he was good but in in some other ways um he showed some of the weaknesses of protestantism in general and a solo scripture approach to life well Billy Graham um showed some of those weaknesses so yeah in many ways I think Billy was great and in other ways he was sort of uh showed some of the errors of of that whole system so yeah that's a good question I mean I think there's some good writers uh there's some good pastors out there I don't know that I've I mean my for whatever reason my mentors have always been dead authors I feel like like I've always been you know really affected by uh reading books in an often older books no I mean not you know like Lewis you know C.S Lewis not not an Evangelical but also well not Catholic although not almost no almost only a name huh like Lewis was pretty Catholic but um yeah that's a good question I don't I don't know that I'd have any when you think about when you think about the Spectrum when you think about for example the Calvinists are they like on the uh approaching the Dark Side of protestantism for you well to me it's um got to be careful how I say this in one way it's all it's all the dark side and I but I say that listen I say that as a guy who who attends Evangelical churches often okay so and whose whole family is evangelical Okay so but there's no you know on the Spectrum uh logically they all have the same error and you know sometimes that error shows itself in different ways but their Foundation is not none of them have a strong enough foundation so um yeah I think that the whole spectrum is in some ways equally yeah equally uh not uh not sufficient so yeah well to like to fight evil to to provide a means of um getting yourself to Heaven ultimately okay uh so for you uh coming into the fullness of Christianity was it painful what were the most painful parts of embracing a firm foundation when you didn't have one according to your own estimation now you didn't have a firm foundation uh when you were a Christian in uh outside of the Catholic fold so was it painful swallowing uh the authority of the living magisterium the pope and the Bishops was that painful or was it All About Mary for you or what were the hardest pills to swallow for you um yeah argument wise I don't know that I had a huge issue uh with really any of them because it was you know if it's if the church is the authority I saw that as a good thing you know that's that takes the pressure off that's great I want that I need that I want that Foundation okay so if you you tell me this about Mary I'll accept it so in that in that way I mean some frankly some of the you know some of the things I don't like are some of the weird cultural things like you know I have I have a personal um animus towards like Rust Belt American Catholicism culture that was me you know what I mean like that okay culture I like California Catholicism better okay yeah right like the culture is I feel like is I'm more comfortable and it's some of the cultural things I just you know and how can you could you characterize the contrast between the Rust Belt and California just because I know nothing about it yeah I don't and this is this is totally just caricatures characters yeah complete caricatures um yeah it's just I don't know it's just cultural stuff like California in general just is more a multicultural and relaxed about stuff just that's a girl's not even just Catholics but culture in general and the um like the Upper Midwest is a different style of sort of get you know it's just a cultural thing Scandinavian culture there's just I I don't there's a but that's just me you know that's just my personal taste some people love it um so that would that was um like for me the by far the harder part of conversion with us was the relational stuff you know like the the family stuff the friends the like that part that's a huge cost the the um professional yeah the doctrine I mean I I I don't mind arguing with people you know I don't that's what I did you know that's I still do that but I I did that even more before it's not like I had you know I don't have a problem like getting into debates with people I don't take it personally and so that that part never really bugged me I'm happy to debate you know whatever part of Catholicism you want but um yeah to me it's probably more the relational stuff and the some of the cultural stuff that goes with uh you know just church culture so are you familiar with uh Marcus grodai and now his son and the journey home oh yeah I've been on with Marcus yeah okay years ago oh yeah okay okay yeah I love that I love that approach and I love the the consistency and the predictability of the non-catholic Christians when they come into the church just like it's it's fascinating but at the same time as it's fascinating and each person is unique it's always the same story it's always the same story and I love that I love that because it's not complicated religion is not complicated right we make it complicated but it's not complicated it's about Authority it's about your private judgment I mean do you have the Holy Ghost like are you really going to claim to be the final word it's between you and the Holy Ghost yes or no that's it in many ways that is it yeah that's it yeah well and this and the first so the first movie that I made convinced so I traveled around the country and talked I don't know probably 25 30 Catholic converts and then put it together but I did that before I converted so I actually released that film uh not not even so I was I was kind of booked on the journey home like that was the era when I almost before I came into the church and um but you're right so like when I told that story and talked to all that really solidified like why do people convert that was the whole point of the film it's like well why do people to convert and you're absolutely right like it's it once you're convinced of the truth of it and are can submit to it you know so it's got two two sides to it intellectually convinced but also willing then because it's one thing to know the truth and it's another to be willing to sacrifice whatever it takes to follow it and I think a lot of people they like intellectually could be okay with it they're not willing to take the step and on the other hand a lot of people don't know you know they're kind of just following their every whim and they haven't studied it at all but but yeah you're right the stories are they're different in a way but in some ways like I I put all of those 20 stories into one movie Arc and they all fit in you know you know uh Saint Augustine famously said that you love no you have the Holy Spirit this I don't know what evangelicals are going to think about this statement but you have you only have the Holy Spirit to the extent that you love the Catholic church that's what Saint Augustine said bold statement but and he also said he also said uh he was a big part of my journey into the faith he also said that I would he said of himself I would not believe in the gospel word not for the authority of the Catholic church right like I just would not believe in it so that's that's a real conversation under when you start talking about Bible with non-catholic Christians just like it's just like where did we get it where did we get the Canon and uh the third quote that I want to share with you a controversial quote Saint Augustine said Christians real Christians true Christians do not need the Bible they do not need the Bible they just are using the Bible to help those who are struggling with their faith but if you have faith you have hope and you have love you do not need the scriptures you do not need them so these are some very powerful very very Catholic statements which are apologetic tools I think for our uh separated brethren because my angle with the separated brethren of any denomination even the Orthodox is all centered on the Bible and uh the fact the historical manifest reality that we do not have even one iota of the autographs the original writings of the the instruments of God they wrote the Old and New Testaments we don't even have one iota uh so we don't have it and we don't know how many characters are in the Bible we don't know no one's seen it and almost touched it here in the church militant of course in the church triumphant they know exactly every character how many characters there are and what it all means here below we have a living magisterium which interprets this mystical Bible that no one's ever seen here below and it gives us very few uh interpretations of very few passages and just with those few guideposts along the road of our faith uh we have a lot of freedom a lot of freedom to explore the different translations and to speculate about the biblical uh exegesis and to do the historical work with languages and the Tran the uh manuscripts and it's just a big nightmare and I admire those who have the courage to start tackling biblical studies but uh the bottom line really for me is we don't have the Bible here below what we do have is a living magisterium that is able to protect the teaching the tradition the the sacred positive faith and to uh ensure that what they teach uh for the whole body of faithful is not going to be an error so I think it's a slam dunk uh if if this is a big if but if you love the truth if you seek the truth you will find the truth and it really is uh heavily heavily centered on the the the fact of the Bible and the fact that we don't actually have the Bible because the Protestants I listen to Protestant radio all the time and they love their Bible they love their Bible but they don't seem too concerned about the fact and they gloss over the fact that they've never seen it and they don't know exactly what's in it that's one way to put it yeah I I listen my my book the most recent books called um how Bible alone theology made the world the worst place oh it's okay it's called Twisted unto destruction and it's yeah that's the subtitle how Bible learn theology made the world the worst place so um yeah obviously I mean the church is clear that um the Bible is inspired you know like Dave Urban is very good document you know like we have the word of God but it must be within the church that you understand it and that it is um that it is understood as a tool like it's not it is the word of God but you have to understand what that means like it's not God didn't drop this book out of the sky for us to just do with what we want you know then and when when what happens when you do that is actually grave evil and that's I think it has absolutely been a disaster the soul of scripture a Bible alone movement has been an utter um catastrophe and uh so yeah I'm with you and this is from I mean not that not that you can't use the Bible for good right not I I preach the Bible I hope for good before I became Catholic so this is my family you know like yes Martin Luther King Jr did a great job with scripture I think right and but um but that's in spite of a bad philosophy of scripture like you do it in spite of it not because of it and and that's I think if if you don't have that the key for me I mean the key for me is the holy spirit like Jesus said it's better for you that I go if I don't go I'm not going to send you the Holy Spirit and the Spirit uh is the sort of Soul of the church I think that's what the church teaches right it's the soul of the church and uh it's it's just so mind-bogglingly ironic that everything that Protestants are preaching and fighting for over against the Catholic apparent uh Catholic teaching the horror Bible on what we profess uh what they're emphasizing every time it comes it comes back to us we have the fullness of that angle too like the Charisma the charisms you know evangelizing like whatever angle you want to take baptism with the Baptist like we know and understand we have the fullness of the means of Salvation here and uh when it comes to the Bible you know it's like we see through a glass Darkly as it says in in the Bible right so we have a fragmented and Dirk it's it's uh it's um incomplete and it's not without error because of the fact of the way that it was transmitted and copied and there are many many many many many many errors and omissions in what we call the Bible here Below in this Fallen World and there are many errors and omissions now you might say well we have 99 of it that we're pretty certain about but that's still a non-zero uh error and there still are omissions yeah and additions omissions and additions so let's not be too well with our churches I mean but Dave Urban is I mean depending how you understand that um Dave I don't even you don't even have to you don't have to grant that in order to uh undermine the Protestant approach to the Bible you can still grant that it is the word of God without error depending how you understand that of course um but it's still that still isn't enough to just say to them take the Bible and go with it because the Bible just as a book like God the word of God is not a book the word of God is the word of God so right it's not the a book letters on a page do not speak for themselves so you know you talk about Billy Graham well one of his favorite phrases used to be well the Bible says you know the Bible says this the Bible says that well no the Bible doesn't actually say anything okay the Bible is a paper with words on it or you know the script but you interpret the words that's just how text works so when you say the Bible says what you're actually saying is my interpretation of this text is thus and then you speak it okay well understanding that then you realize that unless you have an authoritative interpreter for whatever it is that you might as well you could have any book because you can make it say anything you want that's the bottom line any book can be made to say anything you want because that's just the nature of books they have to be interpreted I I that's from a guy who writes books like I said it out there I hope you interpret it correctly if you don't it could be my fault for being obtuse and obscure possibly on the other hand maybe you're the one that's obtuse maybe you're not getting it and but if I'm around I can offer you the authoritative interpretation of that text right like I could do it because I'm the author well that's the Catholic Church says yeah we do that we got that like you said not for every text not for very many of them frankly we they don't actually offer authoritative interpretations of specific texts but the broad teaching does provide that that role uh the magisterium does provide that and so it allows you not to go off into crazy error with the Bible so using the Bible properly I mean it's a it's a god-given tool But realize it's a tool it's not it's not God's be-all and end-all for Revelation right that's that's not what it is um so that's yeah that just a proper understanding of how to think about the book itself or the texts where you know like where even if you don't know where we got them which you should know but just realizing that books by their nature are a certain way and so like if if you want to go down the road of like Islam and Mormonism where you just have texts and well what happens with that you split off because there's multiple interpretations that's just how it works unless you have a like even even the like the Constitution of the United States here's the text well they left people to interpret it for us right or wrong um yeah just it's you know that's and as an Evangelical as it I did not think about that by the way you know they're not nobody's taught to think about that you're not you're not asking what the history of the book is you're not asking like where it came from or what it is wallets what do you mean what is it it's the word of God well what does that mean well God wrote it yeah okay what what does that mean like like you know you like you never you never ask those questions uh because if you do you well you're you're gonna end up Catholic well it's interesting because there's a lot of uh discussion within uh you know Catholic circles because you've got you know the rad Treads of the Conservative Catholics you got the progressives you got everything in between and uh the a lot of the debate has to do with um especially on the right has to do with our submission to non-definitive teachings okay and I've been listening to a little bit of Lofton forget his name Michael Lofton isn't it I forget my friend sends me videos of this guy who's defending who's used to be a rat tribe now he's defending the living magisterium but um this idea of the dogmas and the you know infallible teachings and then you've got uh disciplines and other things that are not protected 100 although the church teaches us that it's safe to always it's always safe to follow the teachings of the living magisterium even when they're not definitive but there's this whole uh Arena online where people are trying to you know defend their position as a set of a candists or as a rat trat or whatever uh traditional Latin Mass whatever they're trying to you know use the definitive teachings or the or the dogmas as some sort of bludgeon to uh downplay the significance of all the other levels of of teaching the many many different levels of authority and different levels of weight that are given to the different teachings and no one I would say no one in this Fallen world knows exactly what these different categories contain in terms of okay these dogmas are well established and properly defined and there's a clean line between that and the non-definitive teachings which are still you know authoritative and all the way down the line to Pious opinions and these sorts of things um so it's all up for grabs and it's all very loose and free and this is the way it is with the Bible too we have a lot of freedom to play because it's like that's what you know that's what we're allowed by God to do we're allowed to play in this world and to play with not only with religion but we can play with uh anti-religion we can play with you know sin so uh we have a lot of freedom and that's a very frightening idea but within the church as a good faithful Catholic we do have a lot of freedom to read the Bible study the Bible interpret the Bible in many ways as long as we stay in bounds and those bounds are very roughly drawn out for us by among other things the dogmas so I wanted to sort of get your impression of uh this notion of authority and how how concretely things are set out or how Loosely and how much uh assent you must give in your intellect and your will to the non-definitive teachings what's your what's your stance on all that um yeah I mean for me I don't worry too much about non-definitive teachings um I think we don't do enough to just follow the definitive teachings Okay so it's not that we need to worry about how how far can I go you know how far can I get away from the no how about you what the church started you follow that okay because we're not doing a very good job of that one um and and I don't for me the Catholic church I mean I agree there's there's room to play as if we will like something not to finish this up but to me the huge attraction was the definitive stuff okay the stuff that we know like for example and this is what my previous so I've done three films and um as an example my second film is about uh the sexual Revolution and in particular the effects of the birth control pill okay what did it what did that do to culture and I grew up not even knowing that anybody could be against contraception I mean I've never even heard of that like well it's just a net it's like food and water and air it's just something we have and we love and everybody uses it and there's no problems and then when I I started exploring the church I realized oh they actually what I like it's not an urban legend like they actually teach against it well it turns out they do that the that it and I would say that's a definitive one I disagree with anybody who thinks that that's not definitive absolutely definitive um and so as I studied the effects of the pill and I think it's been an absolute catastrophe okay you tried it yourself well gained a bunch of weight yeah right if you want a bunch of emotionally unstable bad physical effects and psychological effects but um just in general in society it's supercharged the pornification the sexual execution of women divorce abortion now this is this the transgender stuff all of that what's the film called uh that one's called unprotected oh okay and as I as I studied that put that movie together I became like more and more convinced that oh man this was a disaster and I also became more and more thankful and attracted to the one institution left on the planet that says that this is a bad thing literally one wow and you're like wow they really do you know to so to me it wasn't a negative it was like a huge attraction like how is it possible that there's only one institution that recognizes this is a great great evil to me that was a sign of like wow this is impressive like this is to me a miraculous I would put it up like a sign of is it is it a lock you know locked down drop dead argument well not necessarily but to me it's a pretty strong sign of the divine origin of the institution that it's the only one left well and so you're like well what other kind of things does the church teach that actually are not biblical properly biblical and you know you look at the church teachings on things like consumerism okay it's very very strong it is it is a blueprint the church teaching on consumerism is a blueprint for PRI like actual Prosperity like a flourishing as an individual human being you know like flourishing as a family flourishing is a society not being sucked into you know buying useless junk on Amazon at three in the morning because you can't even help yourself like you're actually literally addicted uh you don't have 550 dollars worth of clothes in your closet that you've never worn once which by the way is what the average woman in America has in her closet right now it's an actual fact well the church teaching on that I found incredibly compelling okay are you there are you there you just it's a bit of a glitch in The Matrix here let me see okay can you hear me can you hear me Amazon's very angry with you Don how dare you loyal customer turning on Amazon like that you're on a timeout now so let's see if I can get you back miss me stand by oh I could see myself twice let me message this guy oh here we go are you back oh oh I'm back I'm back right in the middle of my rant I got cut off yeah well I said I I was talking to the uh the small audience that I get very few uh Watchers on my channel but I was making a joke that uh Amazon is angry with you and how dare you how dare you totally you see that one little John one little thing against Amazon and click you're off ah amazing so wow so when did you make that film so that one I think uh 2018 re-released unprotected yeah um so yeah I just I mean all of that to say the church is T like it's it's teaching authoritatively uh most of us ignore but if we didn't we'd all be much happier and more content with life right and so to me I mean the side debates about well what can we you know what can we get away with to attract more people like should we should we um you know lessen our our talk about uh homosexuality no no okay if you get to the if you get to the reality of this situation these people are living lifestyles of immense pain and loneliness and suffering and it does no one any good to encourage them in that so why would we and and so that I've actually I mean I'm very I'm very adamant about this like people say well is the church going to change their teaching on on like contraception for example well no they aren't and if they did that would absolutely shake me like that would absolutely be well you know you know there would be a Remnant that would be because the the thing about the the Catholic church and the Christian communities at large is you've got the whole Spectrum from what is called the right to the left everything in between and then other different uh aspects of different you know groupings that you could classify them in different ways and you know there will always be because the church is not United that's a sad thing the church is not United so there's always going to be a group uh that's calling itself the Catholic Church the true church the one Church yeah it's gonna maintain it's always gonna there's always going to be one that actually does maintain the Traditions oh yeah that right that's what I'm saying like the but I think that's that has to be the official visible one yeah yeah yeah yeah that has to be um and so yeah I agree with you like you'll have maybe the Splinter groups but there has to be that one and there has been that's the thing right like there actually has been this one church that has maintained and this is far different right than protestism I mean you can just all you have to like the term uh bad Catholic right like people use the term I'm a bad Catholic uh you know like Stephen Colbert or whatever uses that well what does that mean well he obviously either disagrees with some of the teachings of the church or he doesn't live them out at least well you have you ever heard the term bad Protestant I mean nobody's that Protestant that's not it's an impossible thing to be you can't be it why is that because if you disagree with your local congregation or group you just leave and start your own or find one that agrees with you so you might be like a bad you know Second Baptist of Wichita or whatever because that that particular statement of faith that they have you don't agree with but the third Baptists are okay or like you know Starship Community Church down the street they're okay so you can agree with them so there is no such thing as a bad process and that's that's a key difference like yes most Catholics do not follow the church's teachings in America on consumerism or sexual morality that's just a fact that does not change the fact that the church teaches those things and they're being bad Catholics okay on the other hand when you have uh like a United Church or or uh whatever that's just giving in on everything and they've got the trans flags up and well what are you going to say to them as a Protestant nothing really I mean you're just like yeah that's them that's the United churchers you know like that's what they do um and you just move on to you know so you find you find the local conservative church but that's yeah it's a major major difference between the two and one that I find really really compelling yeah well I'm thinking about an argument I'm thinking about uh you know Paul VI he went against all the Bishops like he got a sampling from the Bishops and then he went against their opinion for the contraception and God bless them for that I think that's the Holy Holy Spirit intervening and you know the the people who complain about Pope Francis like you know say what you want about him he's a man and he's you know he's a sinner he's an imperfect man but I believe he was appointed by God Almighty to be the to hold that office like that's what I pray every day when I pray for the pope it says that God you appointed him and please help him and protect him so that he doesn't go to hell that's basically what my prayer says and it's the church the church tells me to pray this so um you know the thing about the Aryans you know back in the fourth fifth century whatever that was you know we know and you know Evolution I believe that young Earth creationism I do not believe in evolution so like the whole church today seems swamped by Evolution Theory and they seem to buy it I don't buy it you know uh back in the day of Arius that was arianism most of the Bishops bought into it you know and athanasius and a few others maybe it didn't so or was athanasius on his own on that but my point is there's always going to be the truth in the Catholic Church there's always going to be that brick and mortar thing even if there's an overwhelming wave of insanity which there often is I think in the truth yeah no no you're exactly right I mean the arianism I think is uh as a direct uh analogy to the contraception thing because most of the people thought that uh Pope Paul VI was going to switch the rules and then Humanity comes out and he doesn't uh same most of the most of the Catholics were Aryans and no the council says councilman I see it says no we're not so I mean the younger thing I mean the church does not as far as I understand does not have an official tradition or teaching on that right so we do have a little bit more that's a little bit different like if it did have a teaching on it um then I might have to consider it I'm with you I don't I don't particularly care one way or the other but I can see um I can definitely see like a young Earth creationist argument um so yeah that it but if it if the church does come with a defended teaching then I say well okay I take it um and I you'll notice that even you know people call Pope Francis a liberal Pope but we all still know what the church actually teaches on homosexuality on transgenderism on abortion these are not it's not even close I mean you in his you know you're feeling like well is he going to try to no he's no it's not even close the church is very clear on us well much less the Paco Mama Pacha Mama thing [Music] I guess yes see again and I don't give me a break I lost I lost zero sleep because of butcher mama yeah me too that's right I yeah until until we have some sort of Declaration that okay uh you know marriage is no longer between a man and a woman or something all right then then we'll talk but yeah oh well it's it's amazing so maybe uh I don't know where you want to go from here but uh I'll let you sort of lead the conversation if you want to talk uh specifically about your projects that you're most excited about promoting or the ones that you just you know you had the most self-discovery through if it's a personal angle or a marketing angle whatever you like or if you just want to talk about what you're reading and what you're excited about in the faith uh what's uh what's on your mind well um I mean maybe for the sake of time let me let me um Bridge the so I've got this this new book out we've been talking Twisted under destruction it's a it's about Bible alone theology about all the scripture I just out from Catholic answers but um I I mean I can't remember when I wrote that it takes a while for these things to get published but in the meantime I have made this film about the transgender movement which you have seen so these subjects actually are intertwined uh more so than maybe than I would have anticipated you know because I've got a list of things that I do and you just get one done and you send it off and you go to the next one and but um just this past like maybe a week ago maybe two weeks ago I'm scrolling through Instagram okay David and I come across this uh Christian influencer mom with like over 150 000 followers like a major I don't know I consider that a pretty good following okay pretty influential and she is presenting a biblical defense and explanation for why she has basically transd her daughter like her daughter now uh identifies as a boy and this woman was defending not only defending but explicitly saying this is what God wants for her based on Genesis chapter one okay based on Genesis chapter one because hey God said let us make humans in our image you know like the whole pronoun thing and it actually went on for a while about this I mean just an utter nonsense if we're being honest about it just absolutely you know silliness but um that sort of argument is so dangerous and Insidious because the transgender for one the transgender movement is an absolutely anti-human anti-god satanic attack on the person in the family it's as it's as evil as we have seen on this planet okay um it is a dark dark thing for her to be promoting it and and frankly it felt like pushing her daughter in or at least supporting her daughter in this self-mutilation the satanic attack on her daughter in the name of Jesus okay brought brought my two projects together okay because that's exactly the kind of thing I talk about in my book is that using the scriptures to actively promote evil makes things worse okay it's not that she's sitting beside and she's like well I don't know what the situation is no she's using the Bible now to promote something in the name of of the image of God in people like in the name of God's creation to actively promote something that is in fact a satanic attack on the image of God in people right see it's you couldn't get more opposite well so that's what I've been so that's what I've been doing and the reason I was so uh like upset about this is that this the movie that I've made most recently this one that just came out in the last month here is called disconnected it is about this transgender explosion and what a um I mean I set out to sort of like figure out what the heck's going on you know it just seemed insane like what is what and then you know from pronouns that you have to like label when you go into any sort of government thing to to the constant like every show uh but actually what was really the impetus is um my kids friends are either like either they're changing their pronouns or that we certainly know people that are and now now they're not just changing their pronouns now they're taking cross-sex hormones oh now they're now they're getting their boobs cut off um you know this just it's a immensely evil thing so I wanted that's what the latest project is about you feel free to ask me anything about that but that um that movie has taken up the last like 18 months of my life and it's uh I mean a lot of other things but that's been um sort of revelatory as far as what sort of the latest uh I didn't going into it I didn't realize it was quite as dark as it is I think and quite as like spiritual as it is maybe I wanna I wanna use this as a sort of segue to talk about something that was on my mind today because I got attacked on Twitter I used Twitter to try to meet people from my podcast and just to sort of uh you know discover what put my finger on the pulse sort of thing I just joined recently because Elon Musk and all that uh not that I'm a fan but I thought maybe it would get more uh open to free speech and that sort of thing but anyway uh someone posted something with a picture of uh Rachel Levine or whatever his name is uh trying to pretend to be a woman and then that that's a general in the west and then in the East they showed a general military General with icons of Jesus and these sorts of things and the the question was which way do you want to go you know which way do you want to go and I answered and in my little tweet I just said yeah this is why I support Putin and Russian I hope they win like I'm cheering for them and then I just got blasted by people saying how could you they're evil and Putin's evil and Russia's evil and they're Catholics and Orthodox in Ukraine how could you be against them why don't you support them and you know I tried to explain myself as much as I could uh just like I mean obviously I'm for good and not for evil and I obviously love and uh I feel bad for the victims the innocent people who are being tortured raped murdered whatever in all the wars throughout history and right now Ukraine stands out like I have a lot of sympathy for them and I have nothing but Goodwill toward them but if I had to choose between the satanic lgbtq plus agenda and teaching kids about pornography masturbation that it's all good and all this sorts of things on the one hand or uh the other side which ostensibly is pushing Christianity and traditional Family Values which way do you think I'm gonna go like I mean all else being equal right so can you come to my defense here like am I going insane well well I mean I would to me you're not gonna you're not gonna I'm no I'm no geopolitical expert but I'm you won't catch me defending Putin so I don't know but I don't know what enough about what's going on there you won't catch me though defending the LGBT so the I think um for me the answer as an uneducated like I just don't I don't want to speak about something I don't know about and I just don't know enough about the whole Russian we both know we both know Putin's no saint we know that yeah no I right so um and this to me is one of the dangers of our of our mindset right now is that well if you come out against something you automatically have to be for some other thing that maybe you not for either yeah I actually I actually noticed this quite a bit uh with uh remember what was a couple years ago maybe not even so much but some of the police shootings that happened and some of them to me and maybe you'll disagree with me on this but some of them to me seem to be clearly an act of Injustice on behalf of the police now I'm in general what people would consider to be a conservative guy okay like I'm the guy that's anti-contraception okay right but I also whatever that means to you for me to come out and say you know what I don't think that cop should have shot that guy it just doesn't seem like that was I think that cop for whatever else that cop made a mistake right there well you'd think I was a communist right you'd think I was a socialist for the way the people reacted to that like oh I can't believe you become so woke I'm like what are you talking about I'm just saying I'm just saying the guy didn't he he looked like a just a a really bad cop that's what I'm saying like that's an act of Injustice stay in your pigeonhole buddy stay in your pigeon so I that's what I would say to this like to to come out against Rachel Levine here's how I come out against uh and whatever his name is it's it's not Rachel but it would Grant it um this guy it's Richard Dick yeah I can remember it okay so Mr Levine uh to me here's what I would say Obviously a porn addicted Auto gynophile is what I would guess if I had to guess what the guy was um addicted to pornography uh has a sexual dysfunction where he gets off dressing in women's clothes there's a lot of them around but the second thing I would say is that's actually as bad as that is I mean we shouldn't have him in the white house whatever that that clown show in the white house last week with that other guy dressing up as a as a young guy yeah yeah well I don't know what that was but why how he got into the white I mean so there's that you know there's that like this Insanity that's going on there but this realized that that's a a porn-fueled uh sexual dysfunction that affects these males what I'm actually more concerned I'm concerned about that but what that's not what's what I'm most concerned about what I'm most concerned about is the young girls that are being sucked into this uh ideology and getting harmed where there's they're the ones that are being actually they're the ones that are the victims of the porn addicted males that's what I'm more concerned about so with a guy like um yeah Rachel Levine I mean what it's just it's a clown the politics is just a clown show and that and the trance thing is a clown show in that we focus on people like um you know Bruce Jenner you wanting to be called Caitlyn and I'll that's a bit I mean we need to focus what is the issue there I would say porn-fueled autogynophilia that's what that is what's this other issue it's related but it's not the same issue a bunch of young girls living in a porn obsessed culture that are being objectified in broken homes abused being told that they need to take drugs and get their bodies mutilated so they can be happy again that those are not the same they're related but those are and neither of them uh is transgenderism because transgenderism doesn't even exist there is no such thing so you know that's kind of how I go about am I gonna you know so I I tend to try to direct the to the what I see as the real issue yeah I don't know what put I don't know what Putin's deal is right like it is do we need some sort of strong leader to come in and no I don't I don't see like we we got bigger things to so yeah I I stay away from those arguments I think there's some bad stuff there's some bad stuff going on geopolitically in the world right but you would agree you would agree with me you would agree with me that generally speaking in the western developed world today they are doing the will of their father Satan they are doing the will of their father Satan they're implementing all this stuff abortion pornography contraception everything and uh the lgbtq stuff plays right into the destruction of the family so yeah the the Western regimes seem to be evil now if there's a remnant of traditional Catholics Orthodox Muslims Jews whatever I don't care any monotheist that has any semblance of family values and Traditional Values if they exist if they're fighting the globalist satanic West I'm cheering for them in the abstract in the abstract I'm cheering and so I just don't see it's sort of the whole political thing like I would what I want is for people to actually live out the teachings of the Catholic Church like be Catholic like if we had an and we how's that working out for you well I'm like I see you know you see examples of it you see examples of it I know but I'm talking in the regime I'm talking about Trudeau I'm talking about Biden I'm talking about Pelosi I'm talking about these these Catholics so they should I mean they should all be excommunicated if we're being honest that's what should happen and that I don't think that's even that controversial of a statement I mean historically if you stand for evil as a public figure the church and this is what I talk about in my book I give examples of this um during the fight against segregate segregation Jim Crow laws in the states the Catholic Bishops like Archbishop brummell in north in New Orleans he was faced with a group of racist Catholic parents who wanted to keep his school segregated whites only he said absolutely not we're Sega we're bringing them together we're desegregating our our diocese and we're going to do it right now and they said um no he said well okay you're out he excommunicated them he says you have uh you have this amount of time to stop your thing or we're excommunicating you he excommunicated the three leaders of the group and they all publicly repented and came back to the church the the um the uh segregation movement died in New Orleans in that diocese because of that if we took that principle and applied it that's all I'm asking for okay like he that's all yeah if you're not if you're not going to support the church don't come for the Eucharist yeah you should I just I don't see how that's that controversial honestly like that's that just seems like and that's what that God has given the church like that's what Protestants don't have protestantism does not have the ability to say to their members no you must fall in line you can try it on an individual Church basis right like you can try it nobody does anymore but you can actually that's not true I've heard of one Church locally that did it but here's what happens we all know what happens if you run into a conflict with a parishioner they're gone they're not coming back they're going to the next church right they're starting their own they can find you can find one one that'll line up with what you want to do so but the church theoretically well not theoretically the church actually does have the Spiritual Authority to say we're your source of eternal life and unless you repent you're not getting it okay that's tough love tough yeah well and that's but that's what God I'm like that's the that's the role of the church that's the role of the church that's the point right that's why we're here so I I would be interested like what would happen if we did that yeah I mean there'd be less I think there'd be on one hand you'd have less but I think on it would be stronger and maybe then you'd become more like out of that I feel like you would have a stronger but also more attractive Church and even within and again I'm no expert on what's all going with the the inter sort of Catholic debates I'm still a very young Catholic right I'm you know I'm seven years ago yeah seven years nothing you know and I so I don't I try not to speak too much to it um and also not get involved in it because it just kind of bugs me like you said in some of these debates do we really care I mean is it is this really what we're spending our time on when I've got a whole Junior High class of girls down the street like 12 at a time going down to Planned Parenthood and coming away in half an hour with chemical castration drugs that we don't even are not legal to give to sex offenders like that like come on let's let's let's focus on some of these things um yeah I just feel like we're distracted on some of this stuff have you got a lot of support uh like are you uh leading a movement with this whole anti-trends thing or or is it just affiliate and now you're sitting back on the sidelines or are you connecting with people from the documentary like what's happening yeah well that interestingly um and as people who have seen the film um almost all of them one of their reactions is wow I I actually don't think I can sit on the sidelines now after seeing it they think I have to get involved that's been my experience as well I mean in general I pick projects you know that I'm interested in but then I do you know you move on you know you move on to the next one not not so much with this one I don't think uh like I I'm not a guy who goes out and stands on the street corner that much but a couple of weeks ago here in Anaheim I was out there with my signboards um in front of the in front of the pediatricians conference ten thousand pediatricians were here at the convention center so we were out there and so no I'm not leading any sort of movement at all I'm trying to educate people but there is a movement I'm happy to be a part of it and so I you know I stand side by side what is interesting is um that I find it is harder to get uh Christians involved with this than it is some of the some are like the feminists and the gays are more involved in this yeah what a tragedy I'm like it was I had a heck of a time trying to get pastors to come out to the to the premiere of this thing or to get them like what are you guys doing honestly that part irritated me like what what are you doing if not this you know like come on obviously there's other you know like yes you're fighting abortion right yes there's things to okay I get it there's you're busy but um I don't know there's an apathy you know you there's an apathy towards what I feel are some of the really like where are we getting attacked you know like not only in apathy but sometimes you know going the other way like well I I can't really get involved in your film Dawn even though I might agree because I I just don't want the blowback like I just don't want to ah listen I mean and I think in not that long um that we're going to look back on this age and wonder why first of all how are people so stupid but also why did more people not speak up yeah one of those kind of eras you know like how is everybody so silent about this so I I think that um yeah we'll see I'm hoping I noticed that um Chloe Cole who's a uh a friend I mean she's a d transitioner she she brought a lawsuit today uh I think we may if we can start suing some of these doctors that actually will and start to win that will be a huge thing so yeah part I would say I'm part you know just a small Cog in this movement that's still way too small but it is gaining steam um I think as parents are getting more aware what's going on well I've seen you know I've seen uh when it comes to pornography in the schools I've seen some Mama bears really giving it to the councils so the student councils or whatever those groups are called uh like this reading out loud this pornographic gay stuff um so you know there are there are Christian women that are willing to fight for their families and probably fathers fathers and men too and uh you know you what did you think of here in Oakville Ontario did you see the teacher with the project it's obvious to anybody who's willing to do any research on that that he's a porn addicted that's actually I think anime porn is what is is there where that where his imagery actually comes from uh he's a porn addicted aragonophile who should not be anywhere near children okay this is not this is again how is this possible like what are we doing here um and this is what concerns me actually about the movement is that there's not enough as much as there are the Christian women out there what I actually find is the Christian women that are strongest on this actually have to have to hold back on their Christian aspect of it a little bit uh because the mainstream some of the loudest voices and strongest voices are the feminists and the gays now as I've told many people and I at this rally I absolutely stood shoulder to shoulder literally shoulder to shoulder with gaze against groomers and the hardcore feminists you know Butch lesbians standing on this side and uh uh gaves on this side and I was right there with him not a problem I have no issue they're they're nice people I'm good friends with them okay on the other hand on the other hand their the philosophy that they are are building their approach on is not going to work it's absolutely not going to ultimately succeed because their understanding of the human person is the same as the trans yeah it's the same there's no difference and so this is a serious serious problem it's it's arbitrary ultimately it's arbitrary to say well I stand against you know transitioning but only up to 18. well again I get the 18 thing but no if either it's wrong or it's right okay like I understand where you're coming from but there is no such thing as a trans kid if you grant that you should also Grant there's no such thing as a gay kid but they won't do that like you you can't even get a mainstream journalist to say that in America because as you know you're going to get that's that's out of bounds you can't go there but unfortunately that that is the it's the same uh philosophy of the person that your identity is in your will is in your desires is in this like spiritual thing that's not your body and that your body ultimately doesn't matter it's a tool that you can use to express yourself it's a tool that you can use for pleasure but your body is not your identity well that's the trans philosophy but it's also the gay philosophy it's also the feminist philosophy they're the ones that open the door for this and that contraception thing again I'm going back to it again and again contraception opened the door like it gave the tool to disconnect women from their bodies in a way where it it sounds suddenly like even feasible to say oh what is a woman like maybe I'm not a woman what does it mean to be a woman well what does it mean to be a woman if reproductive if your body doesn't play any part right it gets very hazy in a hurry do you know Posey Parker I don't I don't know or I know of I interviewed her she's a sharp sharp lady atheist but uh she's fighting hard and yeah like you said she doesn't have the metaphysical grounding to actually take take it anywhere deep but you know when I converted from atheism I was uh you know I was an atheistic Satanist before my conversion and because I'd gone down the as an atheist from age 14 to 39 I'd gone down the philosophical rabbit hole with all kinds of German ideology and all sorts of things in my course of study of philosophy ended up being a hard solid system a Satanist but uh one of the biggest uh benefits of coming to monotheism and Catholicism in particular was the understanding of uh human nature that there is a human nature and we have a Creator we're creatures and we have a human nature and they're men and women and these sorts of things and sexuality the family that was a big big big big big big big big part like that's what we appreciate as Catholics right um and a lot of people don't have access to that unfortunately but the thing is you know I've since since my conversion I've come to really understand in a crystal clear way sexuality in two I can classify all uh sexual behavior and to to one of two uh categories there's sex which is good and wholesome and godly and that's between one man one woman not closely related and with the openness to life and mutual self-giving love for in a committed relationship and then uh the other sexual quote unquote sexual stuff is all just different more or less sophisticated forms of masturbation that's all it is you've got holes you've got you've got concave you've got convex and you've got everything in between and you can play with that it's just masturbation there's group masturbation there's solitary masturbation and the your boyfriend's butthole can be a tool for your masturbation it's all just masturbation so that clarifies a lot of that sort of cuts them it cuts the gordian knot of all the identity Politics the l g b t q a etc right it's like no yeah you don't have that identity you do not have that identity sorry your identity is a creature of God you're a human being you're a man or you're a woman or your child you're an adult you're a senior whatever or you're a single-celled fetus in the womb and you are a human sorry yeah yeah no I I agree with that actually you're either um I there's a line in unprotected that people really don't like uh where it's something to the effect of um it's either love or it's not love and anything that's that's not open to life like you said any sexual act that is contraceptive in any way like not open to life is by definition killing love it's not love and so um in fact we have a line in the movie that uh pornography is just basically making women into a masturbation device like that is what they become uh you you don't want to be treated like an object well understand why you're being treated like an object to contraceptive sex outside of marriage you are an object that's what you are I'm sorry have you seen have you seen the expensive uh sex dolls that are very life like with the silicone skin and the eyeballs yeah that we talk about that in unprotected you know from one side of the perspective we could say that the dolls are getting more and more human but we could also flip it around and say that humans are getting more and more sex doll like that's that's accurate that's absolutely a great way to put it no you're absolutely right like if you don't want to be treated like a sex doll then you're going to have to understand like you are like man um I'll tell you a little secret about Tick Tock so I I Tick Tock is just an intensely evil app okay um and the Chinese and by the way as far as I understand it I haven't verified this myself and been in China but as I said it there's content that they give to the Chinese and then there's content that they give to the rest of the world and they don't allow this nasty stuff that they give to the rest of the world uh on there okay and what you find about Tick Tock is I've tried you post a video on there and they are intensely quick at getting if it's anything like people ask me like why why aren't there more I go on Tick Tock and it's all those pro-trans stuff and I just don't see you know we need more people on there that are giving the other side the reason you don't have it on there is they delete it instantly they're absolutely harsh about getting that stuff off what they do give you and this is what I also found because I get deleted and then I change my email and get back on there and you know try it again what I do find is that as soon as they you know because it's an algorithm but when you go on with a blank slate like a new email and man the astoundingly pornographic images that are fed to you because it's you don't have a choice again I'm not an expert on it I'm just an old guy who's trying to get his videos out to co you know to people right so I take a little short clips from the movie and I put them out there but what I have realized is um oh you're male and you're you know in your 50s oh let me feed you a bunch of 19 year old girls basically naked that's that and your picture and again I I've got kids I teach High School like the picture that these kids are getting of what it means to be a woman is so Insidious and so objectifying and so evil that the I mean I it's hard to I don't know how you would even overstate just how bad they have it right now right like to be that objectified and they're just like willingly throwing themselves out there one of the I what I have noticed is that um a lot of most of them a lot of them I don't know they are putting you're like how is this allowed well what they're actually doing is trying to get you to their like only fans account to get you their paid porn site all of these young girls are just making easy money you wonder why they're not working at Del Taco or whatever your local uh burrito deck it's because they're making Easy Money uh selling their pictures on the internet and you're like oh Lord come quickly because this is this is some kind of bad okay and so yeah realize that like the more I dig into what the sexual Revolution is and has done the more like outspoken and adamant I become like we not only can we not give an inch on this thing we gotta fight back harder because this is insanity and and listen the church is the only thing that's going to do it the church is absolutely the only thing the Protestants are not going to do it they don't have the the gays are given it a good shot I get it you know good for them but you understand why they are I mean if if being gay male attracted to male or female attracted to female and suddenly um I mean I don't know I don't know we're not trying to make this x-rated or anything but um suddenly when you go to your gay bar as a lesbian in the UK this is a legitimate legitimate mainstream news story in the UK is that lesbians are having a hard time going to their gay bars because there's too many dudes in there expecting them to have sex with them that's an actual fact the guardian like mainstream newspapers are coming and they're like well I don't want to be transphobic so I felt like I had to go have sex with him but it was a male oh but he just but he was a trans when you're in you understand like you understand why the gays are against this right like I just yeah for one thing it has to be male male female so you have to have some sort of understanding of what those things are I understand why the feminists are against this because it's undercut everything that they fought for I get it right like oh man of the year or you know Caitlyn Jenner is woman of the year like what you know of course of course um you know who's the Harry Potter author like of course right like good job be against this right but on the other hand at the end they don't have the metaphysical Foundation to ultimately fight this and the only place that does is the Catholic church so as much of a you know clown show as it is right now and I admit the church is a clown show right now like oh man it's in tough shape it's still the only thing that's going to be left standing at the end I mean it's it's there's nothing else there and so I'm just like hey stay Catholic be Catholic come to the Catholic church because this thing is going down you want to be on the ship there's a bit of a there's a bit of a silver lining I don't want to make light of it but I laughed I did laugh the first time on reality TV when I saw a trans so-called trans male to female get married with a so-called trans female to male and I'm like yes we have it's gone so full circle that now we have a man with a woman and this I'm celebrating this I'm celebrating this I hope you settle down have lots of babies do your thing like yeah so traditional well and you I love I do love like when the uh when your hardcore or radical you know feminists they're like um post when Roe versus Wade went down you know and they're like you know what you women need to do you need to withhold sex until you find a guy you find a guy based that will uh be stable enough to survive those kids yeah you know old school I couldn't I couldn't agree with you more you do need to withhold sex until you find somebody who would be a good dad like yeah that's the point thank you very much I I have images of uh Caligula in the fall of Rome you should do your next documentary about the fall of the West and the sort of recurring patterns in history about uh the Jews like how the Jews Fell From Grace and uh time and time again it's it it's uh it's horrifying and it's real the pattern is real we strayed in the Garden of Eden and we've been straying ever since periodically intermittently and it's disgusting but the patience of God it's uh marvelous and it's awesome and it's awful and it's frightening because of the the Wrath that's being stored up for the Sinners who unfortunately don't repent and the die immortal sin the Wrath is being stored up stockpiled stockpiled stockpiled and that's what hell is it's it's it's a very very very scary thing I don't wish it on anyone yeah well and we're seeing it you know like like hell is just going to be the continuation of what we're seeing like we in in many ways obviously worse but in many ways uh we're seeing the wrath of God today in um like life like I don't I don't know if people realize because we're so atomized and we don't spend time with each other just how messed up like our kids are like I can't they're they're in rough rough shape and there's their minds are mush and they just I'm sorry they're like there's a few you know like I I got some good students at my private school that I you know teach at but listen their minds are mush um they're in deep deep pain they're mostly medicated uh you know seriously oh yeah oh yeah the Pharmaceuticals like again and I talked to a guy in Australia this morning who didn't really realize this and I know in Canada I don't know how much time you spend in the US daily but one of the first things people notice when they come here is just how pervasive pharmaceutical advertising is and how much like you know you you can't as far as I understand you can't like as a pharmaceutical company you can't buy commercial time on on TV okay listen that's all you get here there's nothing but pharmaceutical commercials really the pharmaceutical companies have have such a powerful control of the institutions in the U.S and the kids are so medicated from a young age for everything like our mindset is just so much what can uh you give me and what can I sell you that people from other countries don't realize what a mess it is like we're so um we're so in rough shape in fact I I submitted an article the other day to uh an online magazine and you know they did a nice job of editing it but they you sent that the editor sent it back to me and he's like listen I I toned down a few things because I didn't want you to sound too much like the sign wearing apocalyptic creature you know and I actually my response was hey that's who I am okay I I'll take that I don't I have no problem I have no problem taking that and laying claim to it um because listen the answer is coming okay we we are living in an age that is a catastrophe we have to repent I mean I can't imagine it was as bad we have to repent we have to turn back to God and and you know going part way is not going to do it you know like okay I'll try to I'll try to be moral conservative politics is not going to do it liberal politics is not going to do it it's not enough yeah none of it is enough yeah we have to actually go back to the church and the church has to realize I mean there has to be some sort of we gotta I mean we could get into some stories I've heard of some of the Bishops and some of the nasty stuff that's going on I mean we have to clean house there too somehow God's got to get those guys out of there because the church is in a higher stories you hear just disgusting they gotta go so we need to we do need a cleaning uh of of the church uh but the church is still the ark I mean it's still the way of Salvation it's still the way out of this thing and so we got to be Catholics and we have to invite people to be Catholics because that's uh Salvation you know like that's where it is and so like even in the end of the movie right I give a I I let Christopher West give a little gospel presentation at the beginning and people are like oh you know know do you really want to put that in the film uh because you know it would it would it's going to turn some people off and people are gonna you know it would get a wider release if you just kept it just on the topic and not brought I'm like this is the topic okay this is the topic if I'm going to do an actual documentary about what's happening this is what's happening it's a spiritual war that has to be in there or I'm not being honest about what I see and as a documentary filmmaker you just you got to be honest but that's what you're doing right you're you're being honest about what you see and so no it's I you know and I have hope and frankly the movie ends um uh with a lot of Hope and I didn't write that you know that was amazing we're not I don't want to give it don't spoil everyone everyone listening to this and there won't be many but anyone listening to this you have to see this film you have to see it it's amazing it's the the people in it are beautiful not all of them obviously but the the good guys the good guys the good guys are good and it's shining like a light and it's just beautiful it's just that that the like from the beginning to the end and oh it's just amazing I got tears in my eyes oh thank you yeah uh but that was not me I I got to give credit where regret is due um I that ending which really was I mean brought this it was miraculous I did not write that uh we did not we did not plan that I I asked Daisy who's the main character and when you watch the film you'll understand I suggested that hey uh you know and this was like within two weeks before the premiere like that that last edit literally yes we were we were cutting that thing we were editing that thing 72 hours before it premiered and when I but when I got that footage at the end David I was like that is miraculous it is and so praise God because it uh you just gotta give him credit and say this is cool thanks for doing that and it yeah so it did turn out cool everybody has said the same thing even people who disagree with me they're they hit they're moved by it it's a great story I mean and all I was doing was putting it you know putting it out there but it's a great story so there's a lot of hope I I came away from the project saying no I mean God's still in control right there's been dark times we are living in a dark time um we shouldn't sugarcoat that but at the same time there's hope you know that's you you come out of it uh Stronger hopefully well the way the way I've always thought of it is you know I do belong to a community and the church and the membership within the you know the communion of saints and everything but these Saints also recognize that it's a one-on-one project salvation is also a one-on-one personal very personal intimate project it's me and God at Judgment Day and it's very intimate and it's like God loves me like no one else existed okay and I've got to love God like no one else existed and that there are no creatures it's just me I'm the only creature and there's God and I live my life like that and of course there's the other side of the coin the community and being involved and family and all that sort of thing but we have to have both and uh it seems to me that sometimes Catholics can lose sight of that one-on-one very personal intimate relationship with God now the the Protestants emphasize that you know personal relationship with Jesus personal relationship with Jesus but it really is it really is and the Catholic Church does in her own way emphasize that and it can help us to navigate the Minefield about oh what opinion should I have what people think what people say and all oh the factions in the church and the divisions and oh you know all that anxiety that Satan wants us to feel God does not want us to have anxiety God God wants us wants us to trust him and to love him and to know him and to serve him and it really is quite simple and we have to be like children like like Jesus said we have to be like children just innocent and responsive and natural and simple and good yeah couldn't agree more that is one thing my I appreciate about my Evangelical upbringing is that personal relationship with Jesus um I you know I never had doubt about that and and uh it was um I have noticed it's that is a weakness in a lot of a lot of Catholics like they don't quite it's getting better though and it depends what Catholics you talk to and um where you are but uh yeah you're right well they do say you know they do say in in the Catholic church I don't know who which Saint said it but they someone said it very nicely that religion is what we fall back on when we're lacking Faith so it's all about the faith and when your faith is weak then you fall back on religion religiosity and Jesus talked about that about the Jews of his day that we're very good at religion they're very good at that yeah because it easy feed you eat feeds your ego and you can polish the outside and you know uh you know I would never I would never be comfortable as a Protestant having just being a snow-covered pile of dung I would not be comfortable with that I need I need to be transformed I really need to be transformed really and truly okay I'm not gonna be happy remaining a piece of crap no I do not accept that right that's yeah that realization I mean that's interesting you say that that that Theology of Salvation you know the the uh legal um justification forensic justification where it's just like the label is changed you remain you're like a snow-covered pile of dung like you said but God looks at you differently I used to preach against that you know as a Protestant okay oh yeah and people would eat it up and but then I realized oh wait I'm preaching against Luther himself like that's how that what's interesting to say that because I it was like my Theology of Salvation changed before I did and um so I was like I was just so thrilled when I would you know I was digging into some of these books guys like Bonhoeffer and and others and then I and I developed this Theology of Salvation almost I mean I don't know that I would have been bold enough to say I discovered it but I was like wow this is amazing like okay then when I realized oh wait there's actually some Eastern Orthodox writers that I first started guys like Patrick Reardon uh is in Chicago I think um I started reading his theology books and I'm like oh oh so this isn't new oh I good okay great so I'm glad I was kind of comforted like oh I'm for one I'm not making it up and this actually is the traditional teaching I was thrilled with this and so I actually explored Eastern Orthodoxy for a little while uh before sort of realizing well no I mean the Catholic church is is ultimately where you know where it's at but um yeah it was the Theology of Salvation I was so irritated by what I saw as like the cultural um one the legalism like you said like the religiosity but also the cheap Grace where people just walked around sinning rampantly thinking that well I'm forgiven I said my prayer like God sees me as as his child regardless of how I live this sort of thing like I reacted strongly against both of those and yeah the middle I'm sorry middle ground but the actual reality of Salvation as a process of deification of making of actually changing you you know was just beautiful to me and then I realized oh this is this is what the church has always taught tradition well they I don't want to keep you too long you've already give me an hour and a half but I do want to just touch very briefly on another Protestant idea which is hilarious to me as a Catholic I was raised Protestant but I didn't really have a too steep I wasn't steeped in it just sort of culturally Protestant but um this idea of works is just such a joke it is such a joke it is such a thinly veiled uh shell game it is completely baseless and I'm listening to Protestant uh preachers all day long on as I drive around on my job on Christian radio because I don't have a Catholic radio station and they are preaching the works constantly non-stop they're preaching the works and then they just give their little Proviso like well you know it's it's only the fruit of our uh you know the fruit of the version and this and that yeah right you know it's a fruit of Grace and this yeah well yeah what does the church teaches it teaches that everything is Grace like our our faith is a gift it's a Grace and you know we have the grace to cooperate with Grace and then we have the grace to cooperate some more with The Graces we get from cooperating with those Graces and it's a big snowball and this big you peel back the layers of this snowball or this onion and you get to that initial Grace of of uh well of life and of conversion of everything everything is Grace and and we we can say yes or no to that Grace and the Protestants know it they know that we can say yes or no to these Graces and we can cooperate more or less with these Graces where's the argument where is the difference is it's a it's a it's a distinction without a difference it's a Much Ado About Nothing that's what I think yeah I think depending who you talk to you're probably you're probably right about that uh that they haven't thought I remember the whole uh Works versus Grace thing in fact one of the first books I ever wrote I had this big chapter on it and um I always like and I was just a Bible I was a Bible alone guy so I would just look for illustrations you know well what does it mean to Faith in works and Grace and and I looked at like well the the children of Israel you know wandering through the desert fighting the amalekites I mean they had to be out there singing swinging the swords and fighting and people were actually literally dying yet uh when Moses has his hand in the air they win and when he has his head down they lose and I'm like well after they had the victory they propped his arm up you know and they have the victory do they look back on that and say wow what a great Victory I won I mean no all there I mean any anybody with half a brain is saying God gave us the victory on that they were also sweaty and bloody and they've just been working their butts off that's how I've sort of you know even before I became Catholic I mean well that makes sense to me like you work and you give all the glory to God because you realize looking back it's all Grace you know when I got into studying Aquinas and his you know Arguments for and how um you know his very intricate uh understanding of how Grace the sustaining Grace that keep is keeping you alive right now I also found that very compelling like yes that makes a lot of sense to me that first cause not not that initial like bang bang bang first cause but first cause that's keeping you alive the first thing is right now right now exactly yeah I thought this is in fact this is fantastic this is exactly right you know so um that yeah the whole Faith Works things I mean I find I don't see that I I guess I haven't been doing as much maybe now that the new books that I'll have to be doing it more I haven't been doing as much Protestant Catholic uh debating as I used to yeah but I'll for the most part I found that either they're legalistic like you said like you're actually just promoting a straight Works uh legalistic pharisaical view or you're full of cheap Grace and that to me was more almost the bigger problem that you are you know I said my prayer something you know in the old days the preachers used to literally hand out I'm not even that old today I remember so I saw this maybe 10 years ago hand out a card when you at a even Evangelistic event if you come forward and say the prayer um you put your name on the card you put the card in your wallet and if you're ever question you know if you ever question your salvation open your wallet pull out the card and you'll know that you're getting into heaven you know it doesn't matter what you're doing because that's that's how they understood Grace this one one-time Act of legal justification you know that's and well then sanctification well what do we do with that well you know we try to figure that out it's a secondary thing you do your Works wow so yeah I always fought against both of those things even as a Protestant even as a young kid um I remember just not being attracted because here's what would happen we'd go to Bible Camp every summer you'd preach that message say this prayer ask Jesus into your heart so that you can get to heaven and people would be all excited and they'd go and okay I'm going to live for Jesus I need to go home and by September 1st by September 1st they're living just like they always were and then they'd come back because I was there also you know for years we did this Bible Camp every 25 years probably um they would come back the next summer same kids well how'd it go oh yeah I mean I by September 1st I was back doing all the other stuff and then you know either a they'd say yeah well at least I got saved last year or they just say the prayer again you know they'd say the prayer again and recommit their lives and I just to me it was all just silly honestly like even as a kid I thought this is this is not this cannot be right I was almost I suppose you know the Calvinists would say I was predestined to be Catholic back in those days because I saw sort of the futility of the revivalistic model but um yeah no I mean the whole face Works things it's the Saints really are such a treasure such a gift to us as Christians and to ignore them or to disparage them as I as I sometimes hear disparaging the Blessed Virgin Mary for example I hear that on that's when I turned the radio off when I hear that that upsets me but uh the treasure that we have in the Saints and the example they give us how to live how to suffer how to die How can any Christian go to Seminary theological store is you know Masters in Divinity and the whole works they've read all they've read more of the Saints than I have and they're not moved they're not they're not transformed they're not inspired they're not Catholic what is going on I yeah you got I mean people people can be quite substantly yeah people can be people listen people can be stubborn people don't like to people don't like to not be comfortable and we live in an age where you know they don't want to step out and if conversion is tough conversion is tough and it it makes you um like especially the older you get because you have to admit I mean you and I are both converts from different backgrounds but we're both converts you have to admit that at to some degree and at least at some level I was wrong about all that stuff like all my life I was wrong that's not easy right it's not easy for people or if I take this step it's going to cause friction I'm going to have to give up this I'm going to have to do this and oh I don't really want to do that and it's inconvenient sorry for the inconvenience yeah it's inconvenient it is it's inconvenient um so yeah I mean you can see why the the road to Heaven is narrow you know it's not easy it's it's it takes it takes work and sacrifice and when you get there you're going to say thanks God for all the grace because that's all you're going to see but at the same time you're sweating and working and Swinging your sword and you know you it's hard so so presumably presumably You Believe In The Eternity of hell and there's some people in there or at least the possibility of humans going to hell right I do yeah as the church teaches so uh the Vatican II and some other documents I've read have uh put it very nicely the situation I'm sure you've heard about the the church subsists in the Catholic church this is part of the wording of uh the dogmatic constitution of the church in the second Vatican Council the the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic church and the rad tribes and the side of account to say why don't they just say it is identical with and there there's a good reason for it there's a good reason for it because the Church of Christ uh is ordered to bring everybody in like you got to get on the ark to be saved and like there's there's no salvation there's no possibility of salvation outside of the Catholic church that's what Vatican II teaches it's not some liberal uh flaky Council it's an ecumenical council it's a holy sacred Council and at church you know the church is where it's at but the the way that the church balances Justice and mercy is by saying look there's one church it's the Church of Christ and it subsists in the Catholic church and all the means of Salvation are there but they're also partial means outside of the visible boundaries of the church and you can find your way in by those means and the church breaks it down into four kinds of people there are two broad categories those who end up in Hell God help them that's just too bad like some people are going to say no they have free will they're going to say no ultimately they're going to die in the state of mortal sin they go to hell that's a reality that's sad okay the second broad category is those who are members of the church and that breaks down into three uh different types we've got the full members who are uh that have the faith and are in the state of grace so I did confession recently so I hope that I'm in that category the second category those who have the faith but they're not currently in the State of Grace so like we sin and we fall and we're struggling and we haven't been to the confession yet okay third category those who don't have the faith at all and they're not in the State of Grace but they have the potential they have the potential so mother church is telling us these people this young snotty-nosed atheist lesbian or whatever at the grocery line that you are looking down your nose at because you're a Pious Catholic she is a member of Christ she's a member of the mystical body of Jesus Christ because there's no saint that doesn't have a past and there's no sinner that doesn't have a future and that's a reality this is reality if we step outside of time and we take God's eye point of view that atheist lesbian whatever or that pedophile old man or whatever it is is a member of Christ and ultimately by the end of that person's life because they have the potential that potential will be actualized they're going to get the faith they're going to get in this they're going to get in the state of grace and Hallelujah they're going to be celebrating in heaven with us so it's amazing it's an amazing mystical perspective and I want to see everyone through that lens and I just want to get your intuition on that yeah I I mean that's right that's right like everyone and I don't know you know considering that I don't know which of the ones that are going to end up in hell yeah I have to treat everybody as potentially in heaven right so that's great because I don't know it's amazing so yes every person has to be somebody that you view as Brothers well well we can get we know this that God wants them in heaven right that's the everybody so we know that and that's that's enough frankly like you have the potential to get to heaven God wants you there God made you to be there hell's going to be terrible we shouldn't wish that on anyone um we can see it we will rejoice in it in heaven as just I believe yeah makes sense like I actually had a debate about hell not that long ago with a guy and you know people do see hell as this place where like in fact he used the um oh it's his analogy like well God can't be loving like if my daughter you know didn't do her homework or failed her Algebra test and I locked her up in her room with chains and whipped her like that wouldn't be fair or would it you know like as if as if God is like pitchforking people into hell and you know like the Muslim viewers burning the skin off and it grows back again and it burns off no I mean that's not that's not hell what I did say actually I said well um he was married I believe I said if you if you cheated on your wife would your wife be justified in being angry at you he said yeah he said would would your relationship even if you're even if your wife didn't know that you were cheating on her would your relationship be what it should be no that is a much closer analogy to what's happening between us and God if you want to cheat on God and if you want to to disavow the relationship that you were made for well look at anybody who's been through a divorce that's a nasty ugly thing where it's a lot of pain relational pain I I said this is somebody yesterday like relational pain is much harder than a physical pain yeah okay yeah much harder that type of relational pain that is a foreshadowing that is hell that's a foreshadowing they'll put that into the into the next level and and infinitize it and that's what hell will be like if you want to go that far against love uh go ahead but and and frankly I mean C.S Lewis does that says well he says there's only two types of people in the end right those that uh say to God your will be done and those to whom God says okay your will be done like have it your way that's the only two types you want to you can submit to reality which happens to be good and true and beautiful okay you can do that or you can fight against reality make yourself your own God and see how that goes but we know how that goes pain suffering alienation loneliness everything bad and make it infinite because God is infinite love that's what hell's going to be and we see I mean Hells to me is the most obvious Doctrine in all of them I I don't know why people have such a problem with it because we see it every day like you can see hell all around you if the suffering and the pain that results from people living contrary to reality is so obvious and so and so frankly like even not you can like the Justice aspect of it like we tend to think like okay that pedophile should be in Hell or that murderer yeah we get it like the Justice aspect of it but realize that the Justice aspect of it is only like a I don't know it's like a reflection of the whole like broader picture of the anti-reality aspect of it like the love Mercy Justice all go together and so the reason we hate the pedophile and want to see him suffer is because that's what reality is like you can't you can't abuse a child like that and think that everything's okay you know and so yeah no hell absolutely it's unfortunately but absolutely it's Eternal suffering and people will be there and there could be no morality without an eternal hell because otherwise you could do what you want you end up celebrating in heaven yeah that's right well or I'd also don't I also don't buy the whole like um yeah the annihilationist move because then then it's meaningless consequence because Jesus said Jesus said it would have been better if he'd never been born and that's the state that the atheists always say well I don't fear dying because it's just like before I was born same thing Jesus said that state is a lot better infinitely better obviously and uh that's right that's right but uh you know the uh I often say to the atheist what do you prefer your fantasy or God's reality like which one's better just tell me you know which one's better well and and you know listen at the bottom line it like this whole trans thing is like this taken to it's almost extreme there's still there's still transhumanism coming okay there's still a downloading of you into the that's coming but this is the garden this is this is the the Temptation Of The Garden do you want to be like God or do you want to be a creature and if you will not submit to being a creature as good and beautiful as that is okay you but you will not submit you'll you'll rule in Hell Or Not rather than serve in heaven God says okay like that's that's that's the price of Love ultimately right like God's not going to force you to love him and but the but the alternative for you to be that anti-reality anti-god be my because you're not God so good luck with it right uh that will lead you to destruction by its Nature by its nature pain and destruction so yeah I mean try it but I don't you know I don't don't actually don't try it don't try it I tell my high school kids like listen you're you you know you uh you feel very constrained by your parents and you think that if I could just break away from these rules that all would be well and I'm like your parents are not intending for you to be kept in a cage because they don't like you they see the consequences of you going out and being stupid they're trying to keep you from going out and hurting yourself go ahead and try it but it realize you don't want to do that ultimately and your parents were once stupid themselves that's what I'm saying like we we've been there I'm a parent I've been there don't do it God's saying don't do it okay please I'm giving you life I'm here you're in the you're in the wilderness uh thirsty and lonely and hungry and I'm offering you all of that and more I'm offering you this banquet no we want this slavery we want the garlic and onions that the Egyptians gave us right the meat pots but I like what Saint Augustine said he said uh there are two cities characterized by two loves the love of self unto contempt of God or the love of God unto contempt of self and that's that's such a beautiful summary of the Christian walk and a Protestant said a nice line he said living the Christian life is not difficult and the punch line is it's not difficult it's impossible but but you know but with God nothing's impossible but you know that's that has a very Catholic feel to it because you know uh no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me and to be a saint like every day I'm just embarrassed how unsaintly I am um but that's the whole point to kill the old man to die to self and this sort of thing so we're going to wrap it up top three favorite Saints who are your favorites oh not including the Blessed Virgin Mary of course all right well um I'm gonna I'll start with uh jp2 that was actually that's actually uh my saint I was he died look at that just in time for me to take him as my patron saint when I came into the church okay okay yeah so I love John Paul II uh I mean I like Aquinas Augustine city of God I read city of God as a young a young undergrad and she changed my life as well amazing book so you know the biggies I like the biggies yeah but yeah my top guy for me uh I mean he was he's also my you know my even as a non-catholic he was the the my Pope growing up uh John Paul II I just think was just um I don't think we've yet tapped into how what a what an intellect and what a saint he was like when he was a doctor of the church or something yeah I think like I think so I think so like the Theology of the Body we've yet to see um the the consequences of it yeah yeah amazing what about Don your name your namesake is there a Saint Donald or Don uh Bosco or yeah I mean yeah there is but I don't know I haven't no are you named after your grandfather probably um John was our was our family name so all of I've like I'm like Donald John Johnson so I'll go I mean Saint now admittedly my two like biblical Saints yeah I like I like John the Baptist I love him and I have an icon event back here love John the Baptist I love Elijah I like the prophets you know yeah Paul although um like New Testament Stephen is a guy that I just stand up tell it like it is take the consequences suffer suffer like a man but then and then the church explodes after that right like the suffering and so I don't know I I don't yeah I try not to to rank him too much but those are you like Saint Peter oh sure yeah a little uh goofball a little goo yeah I mean he reminds me of the guy like the kid in class that I have in class who's like constantly like putting his hand up wrong answer wrong answer yeah wrong answer wrong answer he he puts his hand up even having no idea you know Peter reminds me of that I'll even tell the guy I'm like you have no idea you just put your you don't no I I just like yeah okay all right I like Saint James that wrote the epistle the little epistle there I like that that's powerful that's a powerful one I can never tell the James is apart though I don't know how to distinguish them well enough the whole uh Works thing I mean the whole Faith with our works is dead that was I mean that was as a as an Evangelical and I would preach that too again like listen you guys what does I mean James is so clear about this anyway yeah all good ones all good ones well I really appreciate meeting you your uh your great guy and I can't believe the work you're doing it's amazing and I want everyone to watch your movies and buy your books and I put a link in the description and you'll send me other links if you want me to share them but I hope you come back again and send me send me guests that you'd like to hear their story or that you'd like to hear interviewed and I'll interview them uh you know if it's uh feminist a lesbian or Protestant whatever anyone who's interesting or or whatever has something to say about their faith Journey or or their philosophy let me know and uh but I'll we'll stay in touch and we're friends on uh Twitter now sounds good I appreciate it Dave it's been good to talk to you have a great rest of your day there and we'll talk soon God bless you all right God bless you talk soon bye