CVS Live Guest - 2023-01-10 - Michael Lofton

Author Streamed Tuesday January 10th, 2023

There are 198 episodes in the Guest:Solo series.

Streamed September 24th, 2023

CVS Live Guest - 2023-09-24 - Shounak Das

Streamed September 15th, 2023

CVS Live Guest - 2023-09-15 - Bug Hall

Streamed February 25th, 2023

CVS Live Guest - 2023-02-25 - Jeff Elsdon

Streamed February 25th, 2023

CVS Live Guest - 2023-02-25 - Ben

Streamed February 25th, 2023

CVS Live Guest - 2023-02-25 - Mason Carson

Streamed February 4th, 2023

CVS Live Guest - 2023-02-04 - Adrian K.

Streamed February 3rd, 2023

CVS Live Guest - 2023-02-03 - Andre Rose

Streamed January 3rd, 2023

CVS Live Guest - 2023-01-03 - Adrian K.

Streamed December 30th, 2022

CVS Live Guest - 2022-12-30 - Joust7800

Streamed December 17th, 2022

CVS Live Guest - 2022-12-17 - Will Lawson

Streamed December 16th, 2022

CVS Live Guest - 2022-12-16 - Shawn Ruby

Streamed December 9th, 2022

CVS Live Guest - 2022-12-09 - Ryan Adler

Streamed November 30th, 2022

CVS Live Guest - 2022-11-30 - Will Lawson

Streamed November 18th, 2022

CVS Live Guest - 2022-11-18 - Dirk Lafleur

Streamed November 11th, 2022

CVS Live Guest - 2022-11-11 - Don Johnson

Streamed May 14th, 2022

CVS Live Guest - 2022-05-14 - Joe

Streamed May 1st, 2022

CVS Live Guest - 2022-05-01 - Ben

Streamed April 12th, 2022

CVS Live Guest - 2022-04-12 - Joe

Streamed February 10th, 2022

CVS Live Guest - 2022-02-10 - Aidan Lisney

Streamed January 30th, 2022

CVS Live Guest - 2022-01-30 - TJ

Streamed December 31st, 2021

CVS Live Guest - 2021-12-31 - Zackery

Streamed September 26th, 2021

CVS Live Guest - 2021-09-26 - Nikola Krcic

Streamed September 18th, 2021

CVS Live Guest - 2021-09-18 - Bill Whatcott

Streamed September 17th, 2021

CVS Live Guest - 2021-09-17 - Nathan

Streamed September 3rd, 2021

CVS Live Guest - 2021-09-03 - Chad Ellis

Streamed March 21st, 2021

CVS Live Guest - 2021-03-21 - Ben

Streamed February 28th, 2021

CVS Live Guest - 2021-02-28 - Nikola Krcic

Streamed February 23rd, 2020

CVS Live Guest - 2020-02-23 - Pykris

Streamed February 22nd, 2020

CVS Live Guest - 2020-02-22 - Aidan Lisney

Streamed January 25th, 2020

CVS Live Guest - 2020-01-25 - Kalen R.

Michael is a graduate of Christendom College Graduate School of Theology where he received his Master of Arts in Theological Studies (Cum Laude) in 2018. He is currently working on a doctorate in Theology with Pontifex University and is writing a dissertation on the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Michael is the founder of Reason & Theology where he has interviewed many of the leading figures in contemporary theology. He has also appeared on EWTN, Catholic Answers, SiriusXM Radio, Radio Maria and has contributed frequently to various newspapers and websites.

Under Construction

Under Construction

These YouTube transcripts are generated automatically and are therefore unformatted and replete with errors.
how are you doing Michael good how about yourself David I'm pumped up and excited I could barely sleep last night because I'm going to meet you oh well I'm really honored to be here thank you don't don't get a big fat head because of me but uh like we were talking about a little bit before we went live uh there are very few people that are defending the living magisterium warts and all and we'll talk about that we will get into that but um I'd like to start as I always do by having my guests go back in time even before the Age of Reason when you were very young your first record your first Notions that there's this God that created everything and there's religion there's a church there's Christianity there's this guy called Jesus who walked the Earth two thousand plus years ago uh you must have had some impression from relatives who are religious or just televangelists what were some of those earliest Recollections what impression did it have on your young soul and when you reach to the Age of Reason when did you first Say Yes to God and to Christ and his church and just walk us through the dark times of puberty if you had any up to early adulthood and then all the way up till today just touching on the highlights and it's a big big challenge but everyone all my guests they rise to the occasion it's always interesting so take it away yeah well see I was born here in the United States in Louisiana but really early on we moved to Israel when I was two years old so my father was doing some missionary work there and um you know so I had a little exposure to Christianity but that was just too young to really understand any of it um you know we returned to the United States at the age of four my parents divorced and then I began to live with my mom who converted to Judaism so started to have a little bit of a background there but again still too young to really understand any of it um at the age of seven we returned back to Israel but this time to begin practicing Judaism in the holy land and that's when I actually started uh um learn a little bit about God as the head of the house at the age of seven uh I had to do certain uh liturgical ceremonies in the Jewish tradition I had to lead some some of the ceremonies uh so that was really the earliest memories I have of learning about God uh but you know it was just mainly something that I was just told to do so it wasn't out of conviction or anything like that um we Loosely did that and for a while my mom did it but then just kind of became nominal and so we stopped practicing Judaism and then we returned to the United States at the age of 12 where I began to move at that point I moved in with my father and I began to learn about Christianity and really start to understand some of the very very Basics and I became a Christian I was baptized at the age of 12. um and I you know took Christianity seriously but as I got into my teens and stuff like that I started to move away from the faith and so by the time I got into my early 20s I wasn't living a really serious life um but at this time I'll move to New York City the age of I want to say 19 something like that and you know hip hip Rock Bottom at one point um I want to say around the age of 22. and it really forced me to start to look into um God Christianity my faith um there was a cataclys for that but a person handed me a Bible at that time and I was so impressed by the fact that they gave me a Bible and actually cared enough about me to do something like that and I was also kind of at the end of my you know in the end of the line didn't really want to live at that point so I just said you know what I have nothing to lose let me just go ahead and read this and I read it cover to cover in a little less than a month and it profoundly changed my life ever since then completely changed my life um and I can then talk about my story about how things progress from there but I think you did also mention what were some of the earliest memories I do remember again some of those liturgical celebrations um in Judaism and also I would remember I would often you know just look outside my window maybe around the age of seven or so I don't know um and think to myself this could not have just come here from nowhere it had to have come from a creator and and I remember being very convinced of that at a very very early age wow so you must have had uh quite a gardener to get that impression from looking out your window no but just looking at and just seeing trees and just seeing things I just thought this could not have come from nowhere it had to have come from a Creator and there was just again this great conviction that that was true and and I realized how absurd it would be that all of this came by chance what about um devote family and friends or even strangers like what's the first time where you remember looking at another human being and saying wow you're tripping me out right now just by the fact that you seem to have a vertical Dimension that no one else I've ever met has how old were you like he could have been in your early 20s when you had that experience or it may never have happened yes I don't I don't know I can't pinpoint a specific time we'll just stare deeply into my eyes kidding kidding that'll work kidding kidding kidding I was going to ask you the only question that I prepared for you actually was um it just occurred to me yesterday I don't like to prepare for my interviews but I did have one question that came to me how humble are you on a scale of one to ten I don't know and I think if one were to to even answer the question it would it would put them already at you know a zero yeah well I was thinking where to answer the question wouldn't it put you out of zero it's a trick question it is a trick question but what's the best what's the most humble answer is it it's not 10 it's not one it's probably is it five it you know it's uh because this is this is the whole thing about self-awareness and the uh religious right or what do you want to call it like I'm holier than thou and I'm very humble and and all these sorts of things so maybe like if people ask me for example how intelligent do you think you are I always say five out of 10 just because that's average and it's a safe it's a safe bet because the bell curve shape of most distributions in nature probably I'm in the middle let's just say five I think that's the best safest guess is it is it the same thing in religion like if someone says how Catholic are you how humble are you uh how righteous are you how holy are you is it safer to say five than four or six what's your what's your hunch on this because it's very delicate this whole selfishness I I don't know I think it's most prudent not to answer something questions you know okay I would rather let God determine the answer to of that I'm most concerned about what he thinks about me rather than what I think of my own alleged humility have you ever been accused of being holy or humble I've been accused of being holier than thou excessively even most recently yeah because on the channel I'll mention that hey this is sinful this is wrong and people will say oh you're holier than them ah no but it was anyone did anyone pay you a compliment that you didn't feel like you deserved where they were sincerely saying that you're very holy and humble I don't know I um I do feel that that does happen I do feel that that yeah I would say yes you know when I when I hear certain compliments I kind of feel like hmm I tend to think a little differently it's difficult it is difficult um being a public figure is that too much to say that you're a public figure I I don't know I don't I don't know what really constitutes one because this whole world of uh it's not televangelism it's internet podcasting apologetics whatever yeah are you are you a theologian are you uh what's what is the title that you're most comfortable with maybe you're not comfortable with any title well I I do have a masters in Theology and I'm working on a doctorate in theology um so I I definitely do theology I also do some apologetics you know in fact I would think the great majority of what I do on YouTube is Theology and apologetics okay and do you have an emphasis and forgive me for not uh doing my homework on you but I never do homework on anyone I prefer I prefer to have the discussion with a real human you know sure um but uh what is the emphasis like I sent you a long email with the sort of emphasis that I place in my tiny little apostolate or whatever it is um what is the emphasis for you is it about like today is it about the living magisterium is it about theology is it about sorting out hairy controversies where do you think the where do you think the emphasis lies or is it just fighting rad fighting off we'll see they're all related all of this is related and it's all really goes back to the magisterium um our understanding of it uh whether we're in line with it whether we're in dissent from it um whether or not it is actually authentic and has Authority from Jesus all of these questions so I like to explore things that are related to the magisterium but all those things really tie into it and what is a connection because my my podcast I've been doing it for six years I'm very um unsophisticated I've dubbed my Approach sloppologetics because it's so sloppy but um the point is you what you see is what you get and the things I'm thinking about the things I'm worried about um they come through uh in every interview like today I'm at a certain state of mind and that's going to come across to you and you might wonder why am I focusing on this question or that question it's because that's where I'm at and I'm a little bit selfish and self-obsessed so it just it's just all out there for everyone to see some people if you watch their Catholic podcasts you get the impression that they're very polished and that if you saw them in the private life they might have a different demeanor a different attitude they might have different emphasis and that there's a lot there to discover that you're not getting to see on camera where do you fall in the spectrum between those two extremes like me a little autistic dweep and someone who's very polished and has a high production value and a lot of followers where are you on that Spectrum would you say like um where am I in the spectrum of how I am on camera versus in real life how authentic are you you come across as authentic how authentic would you say you're uh your podcast is yeah I mean I would say that that's how I am off camera however what would be a notable difference is I don't generally have a whole lot of interactions with people in theology um locally just because there's not a lot of Catholics now I have in the past when I was Baptist and uh Presbyterian there were plenty plenty in fact most of my interaction was with people in person rather than online but now it seems to be flip-flop now that I'm Catholic and there's not a lot of Catholics nearby but the the sort of the heart of the question I'm getting at here excuse me is in your walk with God in your faith Journey you have Crossroads you have decisions to make you have uh anxiety you have doubts you have fears you have a struggle for virtue you have all these things are you letting your audience know about any of that or part of it or just are you censoring yourself heavily on that or you open book and letting people know where you're at or is that just completely irrelevant to the work that you're doing on your podcast that's what I'm asking I think I'm an open book okay that's pretty cool that's pretty cool so I want to thanks for sharing that by the way I just want to touch now on some topics that you brought up you mentioned Israel and Judaism and then moving to the states so there's the I guess there's a separation or a divorce in your parents is that right mm-hmm do you remember what age that happened around the age of four wow and what uh what's what's the sibling situation have you got siblings yeah we were separate a gunner early on because I chose to move in with my dad and my sister remain with my mother and if anything's too personal you just let me know all right but um what's the faith Journey roughly speaking of your siblings did they go Christian Jewish atheist agnostic are you able to talk about that a little bit uh I mean I wouldn't mind I just don't know if they would mind I see okay okay I don't mind though okay um but yeah I know I tend to be the only one who is a Catholic okay um all of my family you know they they tend to well there's there's a mixture but they tend to be Protestant so oh I'm the only Oddball who chose to go to the Catholic route yeah yeah yeah would you say that you're more religious than most of your family I think that there are some members of my family are pretty devout but it's going to be more in a Protestant context okay um so it's going to look differently than somebody who is devout in the Catholic context I think there's much more formality to Catholicism than there is protestantism so it's going to look different but as far as intentions I do think that there are some family members who are pretty pretty devout and your friends I don't know if you have a large group of friends or a small group of friends but um are they of all walks of life in terms of world view uh or do you tend to like have you limited yourself where you prefer to be friends with Christians or do you not discriminate in that way I've had all kinds of friends but I've noticed that most people tend to um move away from me when I became a Catholic oh um but I'm I'm you know I'm willing to um interact with anyone but I've noticed it's not always the reciprocated yeah yeah yeah in fact a ton of Friends cut me off when I became Catholic unfortunately so uh I guess it's hard to know if uh I guess we can consider that like a test of the friendship just like traveling is a test of the friendship and that you find out who your friends are and I think kovid was a test for you have a lot of friendships too um there's an idea there's an idea I like to play with which is Unity you know we have this idea of Christian Unity but just unity in general unity in um the platonic sense in Academia for example it seems like people can say hey I believe this you believe that this is excellent we're on the same page and there's a sort of camaraderie but then as your education advances in parallel you specialize in this particular aspect of that discipline whatever it might be it might be literature it might be uh whatever you and your friend find yourself diverging because you're forming all these specialized opinions it's the same in religion the more you look into religion the more you start committing to these finer and finer branches and then instead of being unified with your fellow Christians suddenly you're in this narrow camp so I want you to talk about that because the idea of Education bringing us closer to the one to that one truth seems Contra it seems to be contradicted by our education system and specialization and by the infighting in Christian communities and within even within sects and uh branches of Catholicism can you just talk about that and the reason I'm asking you is because I'm kind of desperate to figure out how we can come together and stop splintering and infighting so what's your take on that yeah it's it's really easy to fall into a mentality where you become pretty exclusive the more you study Theology and become committed to a particular position I think it's important to keep in mind Essentials um and also the context of the discussion if I'm talking to just a Protestant for instance I'm going to really just limit myself to the Bare Bones Essentials of Christianity um whereas if I unless there's a need for me to maybe challenge the home or something like that I'm not going to however seek to be divisive or exclusive with them um but if I'm maybe interacting with a Catholic I might be a little bit more um you know focused I'm going to then focus more on the essentials of Catholicism I might not necessarily nitpick some of the disagreements that we have that don't relate to the essentials of Catholicism I'm not necessarily going to press those and try to make that a reason for us to not have a friendship or have interaction now if somebody is you know a Catholic and they're going against the essentials of Catholicism yeah I'm probably going to give them some pushback but if we keep that in mind however what are the essentials knowing what they are and then you know not letting the non-essentials be deal breakers for friendship and interaction I think that that will help us to be not as exclusive as sometimes we tend to be when we get really committed to specific positions yeah uh it sounds like from the sounds of it it sounds like you're less antagonistic than I am I called my podcast Catholic verses because I'm seeking out differences and my Approach has always been a sort of uh three-step program where if someone's an atheist I want to ignore Catholicism ignore Christianity sure and I want to focus on the uncaused first cause bring them to monotheism classical theism and then the next step would to be to look at history and realize that the the Messiah that everyone's talking about in in Judaism and Islam and Christianity is is makes Christianity true I think that's pretty sure clear and easy and then the final step is Authority if someone's already a Christian but not a Catholic to talk about Authority and I think it's it's pretty easy to make that last step now the it's easy once you're in once you're in the Catholic church it's easy to see that framework but there's something about the conversion process it's not primarily intellectual it's volitional it's what the will do you have Goodwill or as Saint Augustine said there are two cities characterized by two loves love of self under contempt of God or love of God unto contempt of self so basically it comes down to your will Who Do You Love what do you love do you love yourself or do you love God and not to insult uh my uh separated brethren or uh non-Christian monotheists or atheists or agnostics but it's all about Good Will um that's the conclusion I've come to after six years of interviewing all kinds of people I've interviewed over 200 people from various different worldviews do you agree with my general assessment there yeah absolutely I mean if I were talking to an atheist I'm not really going to get into specifics on Catholicism unless they bring them up I'm gonna just start with more fundamental principles and that is is there a god right is there a personal being who is a Creator God start with those things and then we can work our way up like you noted and and same thing with a a just a Protestant somebody who doesn't believe Catholicism I might not then start with theism obviously for them dumb but I do think that if I were in a position to be able to encourage them to look further yeah I'm going to go to the authority issue that's exactly where I'm going I'm making a beeline straight to that so a quick little uh uh boasting opportunity here for you have you are you aware of having converted anyone to consolation or being instrumental sorry in that process yeah yeah and you're right to phrase it that way I mean because it's it's ultimately God who convicts Hearts but sure God God does ordinarily use means and people to spread the message and things like that that's pretty cool yeah I I usually get a comment daily um wow there's a lot of people have come to the faith or have come back to Catholicism maybe they've left for uh Eastern Orthodoxy or something along those lines and they've come back so it's those that it's those encouraging messages that helped me to continue to do what I'm doing because I get those but for every one of those that I might get a day I get a hundred more negative people trashing the channel so what are the criticisms they have oh goodness they're endless a lot of them are lies um the spreading of Lies they've heard lies and they just try to level those against me um a lot of them tend to be you know straw man arguments rather than actually engaging the content it's very conspicuous that the vast majority of them don't engage the content it's funny humans are humans are very funny what I've found I mean I'm just small potatoes in the in the podcasting World obviously I do this part-time I work full-time but um you know the the characters that I really really really want to interview and I want to talk with are the cantankerous keyboard Warriors who are hateful and I really really want to talk to them and they never ever accept my invitation never I'd like to see one of those interactions if you ever get one let me know send it to me I'd like to watch it the closest I don't know I see but is there really is there really wisdom in interacting with some of these people that that's what I'm saying is just I think I feel that a lot of them are not good willed now if somebody has a disagreement but they're of Goodwill sure I'll interact all day long that's fine but a person who doesn't seem to have good will I just don't know I don't know if there's any wisdom to it well there's the wisdom of Christ that I want to be instrumental and imparting that's the whole point I understand that uh the you know I really I really admire the grumpy cranky God haters that do come on my show one of the my favorites is Aaron rod do you know him I've heard the name yeah he's I don't know if I've ever sat down and watched any of his videos he's a big guy with long hair yeah and he's he's quite a character he's very cantankerous very hateful towards religion he was raised Mormon which is which is uh what I call X Factor atheism they've got it's atheistic but with this all the judeo-christian natural virtues they're grabbing they're glomming onto that you know um but anyway he came on my podcast twice and he's uh basically fell in love with the guy because he's so colorful he's got a big heart he's like a liberal you know like a classic American liberal just like he he uh just a sweetheart that's misguided and naive about Ultimate Reality and can't think his way out of a paper bag unfortunately but very entertaining and so these uh that's the way that's why I'm interested in the grumpy keyboard Warriors because I think they have an innocence that uh Dr Taylor Marshall for example would lack a certain innocence you know I don't know I guess it depends on who we're talking about I mean because the different people are different I mean I'm sure there are some who are cantankers who who are of Good Will and could be reached but then again in my experience there's plenty of them that can't and it's those it's the latter that I'm just referring to um um but yeah I imagine that there's there's some who are keyboard Warriors who you could still reach they're just so shy but um what about a lot of these keyboard Warriors especially on the right wing they're very hateful towards the Jews and a lot of conspiracy theories about the Jews and I've always remember I've always over romanticized the Jews even as an atheist I over romanticize the Jews it's only recently that I started thinking well maybe you know what's up with the different taboos against like questioning anything to do with the Jews where I've started recently to think like that's maybe a red flag or an orange flag but um you know the Jews I always I always love the idea that we are the the the um how should I say the non-jewish dogs under the table of the Jews eating the crumbs and that we are the Wild Olive Branch grafted onto the natural uh cultivated olive tree that is the chosen people and that Romans 11 they are there's a partial hardening for a time until the full number of the non-due screws come in and then the Jews will come in so my my Catholicism is very very judeo-centric and maybe too much so but I don't think so I want you to talk me off the ledge if I've gone too far in romanticizing it but we are the younger son that's usurped the place of the eldest son right we're definitely the younger son I don't know if I'd use the term you sir I don't know if that's exactly what Paul uses in Romans 9-11 he sees it more as in grafting into the Covenant um but we have definitely we've got the pride of place now in the Catholic church for sure there's no comparison between modern day modern day so-called Judaism and Catholicism it's just like there they belong to a false religion right I think that who has the pride of places those who are in the New Covenant and that could be people who are ethnically Jewish or not of course anybody who's in the New Covenant of course um as far as the the Jewish people um ethnically considered who are not in the New Covenant um I I do think that there's going to be a restoration of them in the eschaton where they're going to be engrafted back into the church um so in fact that's what we see there in Romans 11. uh so God is not done with them he's going to bring them into the Covenant and I think that a lot of people in Catholicism missed that they they miss the fact that God is not done with them he is going to engraft them in salvation become Catholics salvation is from the Jews what's that uh which book is that from yeah Roy Schulman well you're talking about the book of Romans of course but okay is that what Paul says does Paul explicitly say salvation is from the Jews yes he does okay the book of Romans okay yeah so yeah but he also says other things it qualifies it a little bit more than that right but what he means by that is that uh the Messiah came from uh the Jewish people and also they had uh the testimony of God and so they were testifying to the one God while the rest of us were pagans and so the message of Salvation has come through them what about um I'm sorry for like I'm not I'm I'm just treating you like I treat all my guests so if you have areas of expertise that you really want to talk about we can talk about them but for now I'm just going to Freestyle what about Abraham as the father uh in the faith our father in the faith um like from Adam to Abraham that's one well I guess Adam it's a Noah note to Abraham and then um I think it's um that famous convert uh who's that guy from Franciscan Steubenville who's the guy the famous convert yeah Scott Hahn he talks about the different covenants the adamic Covenant all the way up to Jesus um so these different sort of zones of time um the Jews are they they're just one of seven covenants is that the way we can think about it like there's there's a history there's a there's a Salvation history prior to the formation of of Israel and the and the Jews right and that's that's very significant right but what is it the point I'm making here is what's the connection between Abraham and Moses and um and the Jews what is the connection can you just complete that story for me sure yeah so the the Jewish people are going to come from Abraham Isaac and Jacob and God establish a covenant with Abraham it wasn't the first Covenant I mean there was the endemic Covenant there was the Covenant with Noah prior to Abraham um and that was much broader in scope but then there does become a more limited scope of a covenant in Abraham Isaac and Jacob and we do see the Jewish people descending from that and carrying on that Covenant unto the first century and in the first century it's Christ who is born who fulfills the Covenant that not only we have in Abraham but also the Mosaic Covenant and we we would still say that that Covenant um with with Abraham it's it's not like it's abolished it's it's there it's fulfilled in Christ uh the New Covenant is a fulfillment of such things so in your mind not that it matters to pinpoint it but when what is the the beginning of Judaism like is there a tribe is there one tribe the tribe of Judah or is it is it all 12 tribes or like where would you put that beginning of yeah it kind of depends on how we're defining terms um you know I think Jews would certainly find their origins in Abraham um now Judaism yeah that is related to the tribe of Judah but then there's some differences between that and what we see with modern day Judy is zooms with modern day judaisms um they are going to be something that is post destruction of the temple it's going to be really a reformulation of Judaism as it was in the first century so what we have in the first century with Judaism is not really what we have today it has been reformulated because of the destruction of the temple so what I see um authentic Judaism as in my opinion is Christianity Christianity is the Fulfillment of those things yeah I see modern Judaism is more of a deviation of walking away from the ultimate roots of Judaism that's just the position of the New Testament there's no way around that now I'm not going to tell anybody how they should have their own religion or anything but if we're just saying what is authentic to the message that was given to Abraham Isaac and Jacob and then also in the first entry I'm going to say Christianity that is the Fulfillment of these things yeah not modern day Judaism I would agree 100 what I'm what I was more getting at and hoping I'll drop the subject but I just want to press you a little bit more you know uh Abraham got the circumcision that's a sign of uh we could argue that's a sign that he was the father of the chosen people but there were also branching branchings within the descendants of Abraham Isaac and Jacob so uh it's a hairy question it's one that I guess we don't really need to answer but would it be safe to say the circumcision is sort of like a sign of that that's the the beginning of the chosen people that were set apart and made Holy by God is that a safe assessment I think circumcision in Abraham is certainly a sign of that Covenant and they're certainly chosen chosen for what is the question chosen to bring forth the Messiah um yeah I do think that that is a sign that is really identified with Abraham but then you'll know Paul talks about how Abraham was justified prior to the circumcision so we have to keep in mind that you know it's not like those that Mark somehow is what makes you part of the Covenant because some people are going to say okay well unless you have this unless you're circumcised unless you're keeping the law you're not part of the Covenant and Paul's going to come and say wait Abraham was justified before the sign of the Covenant so as long as we keep that in mind yeah sure I don't have a problem with somebody saying well yeah that that sign marks when that Covenant began but it is fulfilled in Christ and the sign of the New Covenant is baptism um absolutely so uh yeah I'm completely on board with uh one of the early church fathers said that Judaism priests presupposes Christianity it's of course absolutely absolutely it's all about it's all about the uh coming Messiah they were prophesying the coming Messiah sure so um I often talk about Noah he was I hated him when I was an atheist I really hated him people would accuse me of being an anti-semite and I'd say no I'm an anti-nola height because I hate Noah uh now he's one of my favorites I actually have an icon from here I don't know if you can see that oh yeah that's pretty cool I like that icon but um you know the early church fathers talk about the ark Noah's Ark as one of the uh sort of types of the church and this is a slam dunk for me in terms of the uh no salvation outside of the the Catholic church doctrine which was reaffirmed at Vatican II if I'm not mistaken right that's my reading anyway so can you talk a little bit about uh the ark and no salvation outside of the Ark and how uh how how ecumenism works with that from your perspective and in your experience yeah yeah there's a lot to this one yeah a lot of ways we can go with it too well I mean look in the same way that outside of the Ark during the flood there was no salvation um likewise it is with the church there's only salvation in Christ in his church which is the church is basically the extension of Christ in the coronation it's his mystical body so we identify Christ with his church so in the same way that there was only salvation in the ark and no salvation outside of it with the flood likewise we would say there's no salvation outside the church now how does that work with ecumenism well I mean we could say that there's some people who are related to the church more than others I mean somebody who is baptized is much closer in relation to the Covenant people of God in the church than somebody who is you know an atheist who's never been baptized in fact we would even say somebody who has been baptized is partially in the church but they but they only have a partial communion it needs to be um it needs to be finalized with Chris Mason and Eucharist and a formal entrance into the church so we can talk about with ecumenism people who are closer to us and others who are moved further away um but what we would say is regardless there's still only salvation in the church now where it gets sticky is somebody could be in the church a member of the church even though they haven't been formally received into the church that's where it gets sticky so we could say that there's somebody on the ark even though they didn't formally come on board if you will you know we we refer to uh these people sometimes as people are in partial communion but it's possible for them to have that interior disposition where they're United to Christ uh they're in the church but it hasn't been formalized they haven't formally um entered the church through its sacraments especially Chris nation and Eucharist um maybe they've partially entered through baptism and then again maybe they haven't actually been baptized it's possible for a person to have that desire for baptism and to be given The Graces of it and that Union that comes with Christ through baptism it's possible for a person to have that even though they haven't received the sacrament yet what about the um what about the Last Breath last microsecond of life where God intervenes I'm not saying that God sure must or does but it's possible that in some cases he might because he wants all men to be saved um you know I've always preached on my channel that God has a plan for everyone and that if you're you know uh your friend or your uncle or whoever every indication is that they didn't die happy death and they didn't enter the church there's still that chance that God intervened in the in that quiet moment of death um and I have always emphasized the fact that if it worked then that soul ascented to all the Marian dogmas and the papacy and they ascended to all the Catholic stuff in that moment and the way I think about it and the way I justify this radical belief not saying it happens often it might I don't know but I'd like to think so but uh God only knows but um the way I justify this is because there's no contradiction possible uh amongst the the blessed in heaven they're not going to be sitting around having different opinions about about mariology or stuff like that so you have to it's just a matter of fact you have we all have to get on the same page whatever the true world view is if it's Scientology we're all going to be scientologists in heaven if it's Catholicism we're all going to be confident in Heaven There should not be a controversial uh position right yeah if once a person is you know reaches that state of the afterlife I think they they encounter the truth and they'll know uh but prior to that like in the moment of one's death I think it's possible for a person to have that disposition of ascent even if they maybe didn't know that they need to be in Union with the Pope or something like that the question is do they have that disposition to Ascent if they had known so if they have known that they needed to be in communion with Christ Church through the papacy would they have done so if the answer is yes then they are disposed to to that even though it might not be explicit in their knowledge and awareness it's implicit there's that disposition that's implicit I think that if a person has that disposition God is not going to fault them for what they don't know unless they were deliberately trying to be ignorant and keep themselves from the truth that's something else but if that ignorance is invincible and they are disposed in their heart to accept God's will whatever his will is if they knew God's will would they have accepted it if they have that disposition can God work with that of course he can but if somebody's closing themselves you know off to God deliberately either in in knowledge of the truth or their will and disposition they're like no I would not have sent to God even if I knew this was the truth now that's something else they're deliberately cutting themselves off from God at that point yeah well I often say as a Catholic I just went to confession today uh but and it's amazing it's amazing I'm gonna have you talk about confession in a little bit but right now I just want to talk about um the um what was I talking about why did I bring this up with a confession uh I'll come back to that I'll come back to that I wanted to ask you I want to ask you also this is something controversial in the Catholic Church which has to do with uh my friend Gideon Lazar I don't know if you know him the Byzantine scotus he did a little talk about predestination in the Catholic perspective and I was a little bit surprised and then I went and read in this book which I've read multiple times you've seen this before right I read in there the dogma of predestination that God has predestined some men to heaven and some to uh rejection okay so uh there's a spectrum of interpretation that immediately Springs to mind for me as a non-theologian non-expert but you have a lot more education and experience and you maybe have thought about that this dogma of predestination and what it might mean and you've had professors probably talk about it and you've probably read a lot about it so I'd like to uh hear your perspective and then find out how much wiggle room you have for like sort of best case scenario worst case scenario of how to interpret that yeah I've had some of the best Scholars on in in the area who've spoken about it um at length um you know I do believe it's dogmatic that God predestins yeah the Saints because it's explicit in scripture there's no way around that it's just obvious in multiple places fall explicitly says that so of course God predestines the Saints the question how is how does that work with Free Will and how does that work with reprobation that's where the sticky part is and that's where scripture might not necessarily be as explicit right so we we do have to accept predestination but a particular form of it that's where we have some wiggle room and so there's there's going to be some who say that um God actively damns the reprobate I do believe that is not within the Catholic uh you know wiggle room I don't think that that's a Catholic so we're not Calvinists yeah I don't I don't think that the calvinist position even though calvinist might want to contend with that what I just said there and qualify it more but I don't think that that's a legitimate option in Catholicism um but what you will see is is something a little bit different in Catholicism where you you would say that okay perhaps he's not actively damning the river bait but he's he's passively allowing for them to be damned and that's more aquinas's few and then you know somebody might ask how does this work with free will summer of the opinion that well what what it is is God knows whether or not a person would accept the truth or not and he predestines based on that foreknowledge um others are going to want to push back on that but I don't know how somebody could push back on that without ending up in an active reprobation position so that that's that's what one of my concerns so but I mean look there's some incredible theologians out there who know way more about that that subject than I have spent their entire life just working on it so I'm happy to defer to the experts on that one what about uh Saint Paul it's pretty strong language when he said says what if God wants to make certain muscles for Honor or something yeah I mean Romans 9 is incredibly strong um especially whenever he notes that you know Jacob and Esau he determines these things before either one of them were born um and that's why some Calvinists will try to use that uh to promote their View um however I I might still push back and say it's it's still possible however for God to even prior to them being born having done anything good or bad is still predestined according to foreknowledge um and so even that strong language I don't think excludes a foreknowledge position I don't I don't see it I see how it could lend itself to something stronger than that but I don't see it as absolutely excluding any kind of foreknowledge position so it's interesting it's very interesting in the Catholic church we have we always are going to have a tension uh uh Free Will and Grace and you know uh for the most part I celebrate each and every tension that there is a three persons one godhead you know whatever I mean all of these tensions I celebrate them because I celebrate mystery and attention for us you know finite dimwitted creatures attention for us is a sign that oh there's something Transcendent here there's something mystical or magical or not magical but mysterious I get what you mean yeah yeah you know so we we we as Catholics tend to be a little bit more comfortable with the mystery and uh I remember when I called into uh The Atheist Experience Matt delahunty pretty much hung up on me as soon as I mentioned the word mystery because he's like oh mystery what is that people excessively appeal to it I guess so he's just like I guess gunshot with but uh yeah but the the the mystery of iniquity is another mystery that I'd like you to talk about if you can because it's one of the most troubling things I've ever encountered in my life this idea that one of the brightest most beautiful seraphim could Rebel how do you how do you understand that yeah that's been one that I've thought um about a fair amount um not any in any real academic way but just something I personally have contemplated the only answer I have for that is there's an imperfection in his knowledge otherwise I can't account for how is it that someone who knows this is the greatest good would choose something other than that greatest good it doesn't it doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless there's an imperfection in his knowledge and I I struggle to know how's that how's that the case given that even you and I know that God is the greatest good but maybe we don't know it in the way that maybe an angel could potentially know those things but we know that God is supposed to be the greatest good uh but maybe there's an imperfection in his knowledge that makes him question that I don't know I mean I I'd be curious to know what the fathers of the church said about this question I haven't read enough to know um You probably don't remember you tell me right now but um you know I I deliberately sin even though I know it's wrong and I just say well of course I'm weak and I'm going to go to confession okay um so this is bad I don't want to ever do that again okay but yeah I mean if I were a Gambling Man I'd say probably I'm going to do it again so but I don't want to you know I made a firm resolve today and not never to sin again even venial soon okay so it makes sense for me in this Fallen World because I've got immediate pleasures and I can just I can just say well I don't want to wait for heaven I just want to have pleasure now but Satan or Lucifer whatever his name was when he was up in heaven he had he had did he have the beatific Vision or no no no no no no he did not uh and that's why he fell okay but though he did not have the beatific Vision it's like yeah the next best thing but yeah exactly and what would entice him away it has to be some kind of imperfection and knowledge when when we go towards some good that is imperfect and um we sin and it's because we see some good in that sin um so when he sins he had to have seen some kind of good and something other than the greatest good there had to be some kind of imperfection for us it might not always just be an imperfection in knowledge it could be a weakness of the will and things like that with with Helm he's not going to be subject to a body and so it's going to be a little bit more complex it has to be a defect in knowledge uh somebody are you also it's a defect in his will perhaps I don't know but that's what really isn't is is unexplainable to me how is it that he could know God not in the beatific Vision but still knowing him in the way that he knew and still walk away from that and not just Helm but many of the uh Fallen Angels who went with him a bunch of followers and you know they don't have to deliberate you know they don't have discursive reasoning like we do it's just immediate for them so it's like that's one of the arguments for people who say that that's why they can't be redeemed it's because their knowledge is already set but it's like okay yeah but sure but knowledge can be communicated to an angel that can change their their note so could there ever be any knowledge given to them that might change them I don't take the position that any of them are ever going to be restored so I'm going to say no of course yeah of course we're not allowed to say that um you remember uh when Satan said to Evie shall not die if you eat of the fruit Scott Hahn said that was a threat like meaning you better eat it you better eat it or you're going to die he he said um that God's words was no no no Satan oh I'm sorry to say Satan coerced bullied Eve into tasting the fruit he said you will not die if you eat it meaning you will if you don't eat it that's what Scott Hahn said interesting what do you think I haven't heard of that I guess I'd have to think a little bit more about that I wonder if there's anything in the Hebrew that would lend itself linguistically to that are you opposed to the idea like is it repugnant to you that idea of bullying I don't know if if I would exclude it okay um I I just I don't know if I've seen enough evidence for that but I do highly respect Scott so there has to be some Merit to that position if he put it forward and it's interesting it's a very interesting take because he said Adam he was there he was just sort of hiding and he was not doing he was not doing his duty as a husband to protect his bride and so he ties it all into this uh headship of the family and it's all it's all a very Macho interpretation of the the fall um I'm not sure in the good sense I mean but um but you know um I am a young Earth creationist and I love the proximity that I have to the garden and if you believe in theistic evolution I think uh it's philosophically untenable and I think you're distancing yourself from that and it gives you a certain cloud of like you can just have less pressure on you to pursue the good and these sorts of things what's your take take see here's one thing that I don't know enough about science and things along those lines to weigh in either way um I tend to be agnostic on the question of theistic Evolution versus young Earth creation I'm open to either okay um where wherever the evidence leads here's my concern however is for those who take a hard stance it would seem that you would have to have an incredible knowledge of science and and but I could be wrong on that just that's the impression that I get you you don't need to know anything about natural science you need to understand metaphysics you need to understand uh the dogmas of the Catholic Church you know the Dogma that the soul is the form of the body you know we have the dogma of transubstantiation so we have this hylomorphism we have a Dogma that God created a good world we have uh all sorts of dogmas uh this the soulless form of the body diver say that one yeah um there are many there are many dogmas and the most important one for me the one that brought me into younger's creationism although I never believed in evolution even as an atheist I was agnostic about it I just thought it was a stupid idea like why would I say that I evolved from an ape why would anyone do that voluntarily um uh the Dogma that tipped me over the edge and it was father Chad ripperger I don't know if you know him or respect him but he tends to be a little bit of a Trad but or the the tracks like the tribes like him but uh he tipped him over the edge by um sort of paraphrasing Saint Maximilian Colby with the Immaculate Conception dog with it that is the uh slam dunk because if Adam uh were conceived in any womb he would have been conceived immaculately because he didn't sin obviously until he was formed and so I would have been uh another Immaculate Conception and the Dogma says there is a unique privilege given to Mary now there have been people that say well there there's prefall on post fall and there's a category error to apply this uh term Immaculate Conception to Adam and Eve but um you know that's what that was what got me over the edge and then I've discovered the metaphysical Arguments for it and Chad rippiker does a good job of uh outlining the metaphysical principles that are violated by the by any theory of evolution so I'm 100 convinced uh meaning 99.9 repeating uh that young Earth creationism is the case evolution is false um but uh yeah so any response to that well I think if the Catholic Church taught something that necessitates young Earth creationism yeah sure I would accept that oh yeah yeah go ahead yeah yeah because I I trust the churches teaching Authority better than I do my understanding of Science and even the world's understanding of something of course so if the church weighed in on it or has something that necessitates that position I would go for it I just I haven't seen that yet does one position appeal to you more than the other do you secretly hope that uh evolution is true or that young Earth creation of semester I'm kind of indifferent yeah it's it really hasn't never been an interest of mine okay to be honest what about the rib uh Eaves having been formed from the side of Adam do you know anything about the magisterial Wake that would be a slam dunk right if it were dogmatic I think that that would certainly lend itself um if if we're going to see that as like literal yeah I think it would certainly lend itself to theistic Evolution oh yeah I I yeah I I think it would I don't think it would necessitate the theistic of I'm sorry I'm sorry not theistic levels okay I'm so sorry I was like wow how did you come up with that wow younger young Earth creation gymnastic mental gymnastics for that one I don't think it would necessitate young Earth creationism but I think it would lend itself to it very strongly um but yeah that's kind of where the debate is right I mean how reinterpreting such things um is this something that literally happens historically or is it uh something that symbolizes some truth but it's not necessarily literalistic in nature that that's where the debate is but I do think that if the magisterium were to come out and say this actually happened historically in the way that it's described and it's not a symbol of something else um yeah I mean how does that not lend itself to theistic Evolution yeah do you know uh the Colby Center and Hugh Owen do you have any respect for them I know the Colby Center but I I don't know like really in depth okay about them so yeah sounds sounds familiar very dignified man you should have him on your show for sure you should reach out let's see let me let me check because it seems like he's got a beard he's got a beard he's very holy quiet dignified man humble um Byzantine right Byzantine right see Byzantine right yeah I wonder if I met him the other day you should definitely reach out his father was high up in Planned Parenthood can you believe it wow and it was all about Evolution like Evolution and Eugenics and abortion it's all tied together why is there something from familiar yes I have had them on okay uh I interviewed him that's why it sounds familiar okay I interviewed him a while back but I've I've interviewed like several hundred people that's why it's like anymore I wanted to ask you uh on a different side note who's your who are your top three favorite guests and don't you know I don't want you to fall into favoritism and get in trouble I don't want to get in trouble but um just sort of yeah who left an oppression uh who's impacted you who do you just think who did you have good chemistry with you just like the guy or gal and what's the guy to gal ratio is it 90 guys yeah I would say probably 90 guys I mean and it's about 90 percent guys who are my viewers too so it's it's kind of proportional really yeah um it ranges between 80 to 90 percent guys who watch the channel I don't know that's the way it is I don't have anything that would exclude with it or anything no no all of all of us are in the same boat they were doing this stuff I guess men just tend to gravitate more towards the the show um yeah good question I don't know I can maybe answer it this way I can the first thing that comes to mind is an interview that I had that was very impactful on me if that helps yeah I interviewed Mike aquilina on one of his books on the church fathers and friendship and believe it or not that one really impacted me because a light bulb went off during that show for me he was talking about how one of the reasons why the early church was so effective in evangelization is because of friendships they would be friend pagans they would befriend non-believers and they were present to them as good Witnesses and that converted people more than any kind of preaching and Proclamation not that those things are bad but it was again friendships and living as a Christian being a good witness to them that really converted people that profoundly impacted me and I've tried to keep that in mind in preserving friendships and establishing friendships um that that was incredibly impactful on me so that was like the first thing that came to mind that's very cool I got some follow-up questions follow-up question follow-up question number one will you be my friend yeah sure you know he even notes about how you want to have a friendship um you can have a friendship for some with someone even just just to be friends not to try to evangelize them not that it's bad to call people to Christ but in other words he's saying it's okay to be friends with an atheist it's okay to be friends with a non-Christian just for the sake of being friends because friendship is a good in and of itself that also was impactful for me because it lets me know okay it's not like I have to just be their friend so that I can evangelize them like a bird though I could be friends for the sake of being a friend it's it sounds very very very much like Pope Francis that's the vibe I'm getting it's like it's all about that relationship and uh it's it's uh what do they call it accompaniment or whatever sure sure yeah yeah that that's the connection they haven't put together but I think there's truth to what you're saying yeah that's one of the reasons I like Pope Francis because he has that very simple uh love practice of people and uh he's the opposite of a rat Trad that's true that's very true and I I dislike the rat traps as you know no offense I've met some sweet ones I met some very good ones uh some good ones yeah I just don't like the attitude you know the stinking attitude sure um yeah the distance do you know the do you know the definition of friend the cat Catholic definition I know it but I want to know if you know it the Catholic definition of friendship I don't know if I could specifically name it one but I'm curious to hear a question with you what would be a what would be a Christian definition of friendship just off the cuff I know it when I see it well I would be pressed to give a definition for it though I'm curious however what's the definition that you have well it sort of contradicts what you were saying because it says friendship is um a friend is someone who helps you to get to heaven that's what a friend is that's that's what I've heard from this now I have heard that before yes let's talk about this yes yes so it seems to run against your idea like no no we don't need to but but you know uh who was it Saint Francis uh of Assisi who said preach at all times and use words if necessary so it might be that might be the workaround where it's like it is you know it's both it's both and like you don't need to preach You Preach with your with your friendship the Friendship is abuse to preach yeah like if you have an atheist friend um I do believe that a friendship is a good in and of itself but if you have an opportunity to witness to this person if you have an opportunity to bring them to God and you don't take that yeah that's not being a good friend yeah that's not being a friend at all because that's going against charity but there's so many opportunities to do it non-verbally I think that's where we can have that that 5D chest thing right where we have have our cake and eat it too um I think Saint Augustine said that that definition I'm a big huge fan that's how I became a Christian was because of Saint Augustine so I'd like you to talk about um Saint Augustine what he means to you as a theologian and as a Christian uh in your prayer life uh in your theology uh and then I'm going to ask you about a couple of other big name uh theologians and and Saints let's start with Saint Augustine please Augustine was actually pretty impactful in in my life when I was still a Protestant and helped push me in the direction of Catholicism I I remember reading his uh confessions yeah that's what converted me when I when I when I was yeah still Protestant and I was very impacted by that I saw the warmth the seal the passion the love for God that spoke volumes to me and that will always stick in my mind when it comes to Gus Augustine so he's he's been pretty impactful there um I've also of course read some of his theological Works uh the anti-palagian writings some of the anti-donitis writings uh some of his commentaries on Psalms and sermons and stuff like that um now he has a ton of others but those are some that I've looked into and I've appreciated most of it a few bits here and there it's like yeah I don't know if the church would agree with that but you know not not every saint says everything that you know they're not always accurate on everything sometimes I feel Augustine is also a little too verbose he spends a thousand words getting to somewhere that we could just say in 10 words have you read the city of God I've read parts of it and every time I try to go through it it's just like oh my God you're really really tangent tangent yeah the first the first ten ten books it's like all about the Greek gods and stuff like that I love that I love it yeah but for me it's like I think we could have turned the city of God into like a fraction of this you know oh I love it I love it um what are some uh do you have any citations or quotes memorized from Saint Augustine does any do any come to mind I hate to put you on the spot but it's fun yeah uh you know of course the the most famous one which is probably the most meaningful to me our hearts are restless until they rest in you talking about God uh that was a story of my life because there was a lot of um a lack of peace and restlessness until I found God that's why those words resonated with me more than probably anything I've ever heard from any others saying wow yeah that's chapter one I I pray the entire first chapter of the confessions every day is oh really daily prayers yeah it's short is it from chapter one it yeah it is from chapter one yeah wow yeah it's been a while since I've read it but that stood out with me and actually I don't know if you saw the Augusta movie but they had that part quoted whenever he was being baptized yeah they quoted that part is it a recent contemporary production yeah I was probably done like six seven years ago so well the fact they had actually would have been a little longer than that because I remember they had a viewing for Pope Benedict he watched it I think it was well done yeah yeah um yeah some of my favorite quotes for apologetics purposes from Saint Augustine are Christians don't need the Bible I love that one we only need we only need the supernatural virtues of faith hope and love I love that one I love using that one against the Christian the uh Protestants which one is that from uh which book uh I'll have to look up I'll send you the link uh the next one is is equally powerful uh and it's from his uh interactions with that guy the uh who's that Gnostic guy that he was always fighting with uh do you remember he was in a key yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah he wrote against him against maniki or whatever it was and he said I would not believe in the gospel word not for the authority of the Catholic church I love using that one with the non-catholic Christians um but there's so many there's so many colorful gems uh that he's given me especially uh in the city of God I love that quote that I gave you earlier about the two cities characterized by two loves that is so powerful and it's so spot on another one of my favorite Saints I want you to talk about if you know anything about him and you probably do he's the second Saint Augustine do you know him of Canterbury yeah Saint Anselm no saint Ansel of Canterbury oh and some of Canterbury yeah he's called the second okay I was thinking of Gustin of Canterbury no no I don't know anything about him and I'm not terribly interested what little I've read but Saint Anselm is is called the Saint the second Augustine because he sort of followed in the ideological footsteps have you read his prayers and meditations or any of his philosophical works I tried to get through a little bit of it before but I I didn't complete um now of course I've encountered when I've done philosophy classes and schools which I didn't find very impressive now I understand that there are spin-offs in other versions of it and maybe it's stronger than one initially expects but I didn't find it to be too terribly convincing now in fact the Curious thing is I just got it right over there um came across some of his uh selective works that I just got at the bookstore the other day and he has A Treatise on the filioco in there that I'm going to be reading so oh no I knew that he had that Treatise it's just I haven't read it yet well his his best stuff in my humble opinion uh the most moving some of the most moving writing I've ever read are his prayers and meditations if you haven't read them I highly highly highly recommend you read them very touchy very touching didn't didn't tan just publish those I don't know I don't know some of them it seems like they sent me a couple of shorts it's short it's not long yeah they I think they published it and sent it to me not long ago I got a stack of just okay you're reading this huge library of books is that a real backdrop behind you yeah and this is that's real life yeah and there's a lot more books it stretches for Miles there's a lot of work so no but like I I'm I'm familiar with a lot of this stuff but I haven't had the chance to read some of it uh so you know I just wanna I just want to mention the reason that I'm so excited about Saint Anselm is because I was an atheist at one point for 25 years and when I was studying philosophy as a hobby I went through chronologically from the pre-socratics up until Descartes and then I converted but when I got to uh the 12th century or so I read the ontological argument and I chewed on that like a Zen colon for eight years and it was very instrumental in bringing me to God that and The Cloud of Unknowing Do You Know The Cloud of Unknowing I've heard it but haven't read it but yeah yeah the introduction of the book says if you're not a Christian don't read this book and I'm like but I want to read it to read it anyway I read it yeah it did that's cool it's a mystical thing well kind of like Thomas the campus oh yeah I guess I usually see him in that sink yeah I love that I love it yeah I love I like this first book there was a there's a sequel to that uh imitation of Christ here do you ever read it something about a garden or something I don't know no no I'm not familiar I don't know the imitation it might be fake it might be fake I don't know I wasn't aware that there was a sequence then yeah I I may have been fooled into buying it for my Kindle because I was disappointed when I read it like this doesn't seem like the sequel to The imitation of Christ um now another one of my favorites uh and do you have time do you mind if I keep your do you have time yeah I got just a few more minutes and then I gotta head out but yeah just a few more okay sure uh very briefly then uh talk about Saint Francis uh of Assisi and uh Blessed John Don Scottish two that admire a lot yeah Francis um I I can certainly appreciate him and his approach I've been really impressed by his Zeal and passion to preach the gospel he goes out there was it the sultan that he literally went to the sultan to preach the gospel knowing that he could get killed for it I was pretty impressive and of course the Stigmata I mean he's the first one to receive this Stigmata and I I've always found that pretty fascinating that testifies to his sanctity um so those are two things that really have stood out to me his willingness to preach the gospel and in spite of the fact that he knows he could easily get killed and of course the stigmata um seems like I read his rule a while back too and it uh and and it certainly seemed to be a good rule in fact I was thinking of at one point becoming a third order uh Franciscan um but it it didn't didn't work out I mean I could have it's just like but there was a lot of other things I had going on so I didn't pursue it you like Saint Francis de Sales um did he did he look into being third order but didn't do it I don't know you know I'm just changing the subject here oh you're asking do I like Saint Francis de Sales um yeah um one of his Works trying to think of the title but I'll recognize the picture as soon as I see it it's not the spiritual combat I know he didn't write that one but it's usually in the same category what's the one that I'm thinking of the spiritual word oh well it's not the controversies that that one that one's going to be more of an apologetic but I liked his book on the sign of the cross the introduction to the development uh okay okay yeah yeah that I remember that being a great great book it's been probably 10 years since I've read it but I it stands out of my mind as that was a really good work of his I'm reading the complete works it's going to take me a long time of saying uh Alphonsus liguri you like him I love Liguori um one of his best books that he wrote was um on the Virgin Mary oh the glories of Mary yes and and another huge one uniformity with God's will uh preparation for death is amazing too and now I don't think I've read that one that's what I've read over and over and over uniformity with God's will uh did you read the Phillips did you read the Phila Khalia of the Eastern desert fathers no I do have the filicalia and I'm reading through it and I have also read the desert father is the one that was published by what's her name Benedict award I think it is the one who put that one out I've read that one but philicalia is like pretty long yeah it took me 11 months to read it took me 11 months to read it yeah it's it's like four volumes and there's actually a fifth volume that has a release it's mostly repetition but it's it's a it's a therapy uh Saint John Vianney you like him yeah now I'm trying to think does he have any works I don't know I've just I I don't remember reading any of this stuff I just I don't hear the stories of his life I've heard some stories about I don't know I think if he has any books I can't think of anyone let me see let's go um I I don't I don't see anything coming up it's just stories of anecdotes Legends yeah what about uh Saint Ignatius Loyola you like him you know I haven't looked too much into them I do have a Jesuit friend priest who comes on the show and he talks about him a little bit so I've never really gotten into seeing Ignatius Loyola I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that I'm just I've never really looked a whole lot into the spiritual exercises or anything like that well we're going to talk about the uh Jesuits next time if you'll come back now that we're friends you I got you on tape saying you're my friend so if you come back I'd love to talk about the conspiracy theories the black Legends I'd like to talk to you about the the Glorious Inquisition and the Glorious Crusades and uh all that kind of stuff you know you need to get uh Steve widecom fun for the Crusades oh okay well now now that we're best friends uh we you should definitely send me uh like guests okay because I'm like a bottom feeder here on the internet so I'll just take whoever you send me Steve Wyckoff is is great and inaccessible is his emails online if you even know them he'll most likely respond very cool well I really appreciate you taking the time and uh I hope I didn't make you sweat too much with some weird questions but uh I I do hope you'll come back in all seriousness because I have a lot of questions to ask you a lot of stuff to talk about and uh I do really appreciate it and I'll let you get back to your day but uh I'll just ask you to pray for me and mine and uh I enroll each and every one of my guests in a Perpetual Mass okay so you're going to be getting flooded with these extra Graces thank you every day till the end of time and it's for you and your family so are you married yes okay do you have any kids yes cool so your spouse and kids and your parents and your siblings thank you so I appreciate that we need it yeah well you're you're fighting the good fight there and uh next time I'd love to talk with you about Saint Paul he's one of my heroes in the faith amazing one of my favorite amazing and the New Testament era one of my favorite yeah amazing so God bless you and thank you very much and we'll talk very soon thank you take good care God bless bye