CVS Live Guest - 2022-08-12 - Joshua S. Howes

Author Streamed Friday August 12th, 2022

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I met Joshua through Pinesap and Speckzo. He is relatively new to his Calvinist faith, but he is very committed to his beliefs. We discussed our differences in general and authority in particular. God bless him.


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These YouTube transcripts are generated automatically and are therefore unformatted and replete with errors.
we are live I'm here with Joshua Joshua how are you doing good how are you I'm great I'm very happy to meet you and you're a nice young man I saw you on specso and pine steps uh YouTube channel but I didn't really watch it so I want you to uh talk a little bit about yourself who you are uh what you believe but more importantly where do you come from like what was your childhood like how were you raised what were your parents what was your parents Faith growing up if you have any siblings just fill this in sort of the background to the extent that you're comfortable sharing of course yeah totally so I'm Josh I'm a reformed Christian uh calvinist it would be another way to describe my religious belief um I was raised within an Anglican family my dad's actually an Anglican Minister um to two great Christian parents with two great uh Christian siblings um and I've really appreciated the way in which they've raised me to be the young Russian I am now um you know if I could point to anyone who would have inspired my faith more it would be my dad and he continues to guide me along with that which is incredibly helpful um I mean was there any uh I guess I suppose I moved around a lot because my dad was a minister so I've lived in quite a few places across Regional New South Wales uh bigger state in Australia and um yeah I'm at Uni now so and how old are you in the farm 19 19. okay so uh well you have to fill in a lot of the details because I mean uh you selected your particular Christian Community for a reason uh multiple Reasons I'm sure you have uh what you consider to be very good reasons so I want to hear what those reasons are and the thought process but also you know not only the head but also the heart like what Drew you and uh and then uh we could dig into more uh other stuff after that yeah well ultimately I'm reformed because I think it's biblical I think the Bible points to some hard truths um that Calvinism um probably most accurately focuses on I think that main point of Calvinism is God's sovereignty and God's Authority which is actually something I struggled with um sort of media 12 when I was a Libertarian like a full-on anarcho-capitalist and I really rejected God's sovereignty and Authority in my life and it wasn't until I fully understood reform theology that it really brought me back and understood um the idea that I am clay that God has made me to follow him and serve him and ultimately glorify him and so um that is that is I think what the Christian life is all about um and I think that that really does Connect into your heart because when you understand God's sovereignty you fully understand how gracious he is in allowing us to live and enjoy his creation so what about free will do you have free will or no right so uh this is an interesting uh discussion within reformed circles um many good theologians RC Sprouse particular inspiration of mine and he talks about how um we have free will in a sense but ultimately because of our total depravity it's bound by sin so um before the fall Adam and Eve were totally free to follow um God and and Obey him um but you know when they sinned and when original sin came about then that's in uh binded their decision um so that they could unless God intervened they could only make wrong decisions um or perhaps they could only they weren't able to obey him otherwise so that's my perspective on Free Will it's bound by sin ultimately so how do I choose to please God and to die to self and to live in Christ how do I do that it's obviously by the grace of God it's by the grace of God right right but the choice is the choice free or is the choice compelled by grace it's compelled by grace I don't think that anyone can come to Christ unless Christ draws to them that's that's my perspective and it's irresistible the grace is irresistible right yes God can't come and offer us you know the only reason God would off but why uh Grace being irresistible um do you mean that um you know God can't come to us and offer it offer it to us and then ask having have reject it is that that what you're referring to um well if if God decides to save me I will be saved is that that's what I'm getting at yes yeah yeah but God wants to save everyone so everyone's saved no so God doesn't wish there are sort of I talked about this a bit in the um in the pine sap debate but there are a few different um definitions or interpretations of uh when the Bible was referring to wishing so um there's it all sort of breaks down into two components one of them is God Desiring that something would happen but he doesn't will it um in a in a sort of predestination sense and then another one is God actually physically willing something to come about so you know God I think um obviously I think any any Sovereign benevolent God would would wish everyone to come to him but it's clear that he only chooses the elect to be saved um which is which is where where sort of Calvinism draws that distinction okay um there's so many things to talk about this is just such a fascinating conversation and I I don't think I've ever had a calvinist on my podcast before so I hope you don't mind if I dwell a bit on it is that okay for you yeah totally totally okay uh first of all uh before I dive into some of the many many points that I find fascinating about this world view and this particular interpretation of uh of Christianity uh can you just give me a sort of a baseline what are the typical uh contrasting points the most sort of contentious points between specifically someone like a Catholic uh and a calvinist like because I'm Catholic that's what I want to focus on I mean you could talk about where you differ from The Seventh-Day Adventist or the Scientologist or whatever but that's not interesting to me it's not interesting to me what's interesting to me is where do you in your particular form of Calvinism where do you differ most from the Catholics and if you want to bring even bring up some of the points where you found difficulty with pine sap communicating or getting a clear uh finding a way to understand each other because I'm interested I'm very interested in uh Unity Christian unity and the things that separate us our lies truth unites us and the lies divide us so I'm very interested in trying trying to talk with my fellow Christians about those things that that where we differ you know especially the most important points so just touch on a few of them and we'll dig in a little bit yeah well I think there are probably two main things the first one was the topic of our debate with pine sap which was limited atonement uh which is we we touched on briefly just then the idea that um you know Christ's death would be um it's possible that it could have covered all it was able to but it was only intended for the elect that God intended to save and then the other point would I be what is what is the church um is the church an institution that being the Catholic church or does the church simply refer to um a group of Believers and I think that really um is the is the dividing line between Protestants and Catholics okay uh do you before we dig into I want to dig into the limited atonement but we before we dig into that um do you see a spectrum like if you're at the top you have the fullness of the Christian saving truths in your calvinist uh worldview uh uh can you just sort of step down the ladder in terms of who's the closest the next closest and then how far away are the Catholics are we the furthest away or one of the furthest away just give me an idea like on that Spectrum what are some of the highlights on that Spectrum who's really close to you who's really far from you right theologically and I'm talking let's let's limit it to trinitarian uh uh Christians because if you start straying from the Trinity I think you've gone too far anyway for sure right so I guess you have um probably below the um reformed theology guys and the Calvinists you have evangelicals who are really close and sometimes it's difficult to draw a distinction but um not all evangelicals I think I like hardcore um five-point Calvinists um then I mean you probably could go a bit lower to like liberal Christians um and at that point you're probably hitting the Catholic side with some of these Thomas and stuff and augustinians which is where um Calvin and Luke like Luther was an augustinian monk so some of that inspiration sort of um influenced the um the roof like the reformed and Protestant Theology and then at that like below that you have I think every other Catholic um and the Orthodox church and so that's it's quite I've sort of grouped them quite broadly but I think that's that's where I grouped them yeah that's helpful that's that's really helpful to understand that and the the way that you're able to Envision that proximity or distance relative to the fullness of the Christian truth is because of tulip the five points is that what you use is that you're guiding uh yeah the Five Points of Calvinism are really Central to um yeah understanding calvinist theology um you definitely don't have to agree with all five points to be saved I think there are many in the Catholic Church who are saved but it's ultimately the question is what do you put your trust in when it comes to Salvation do you put it in the church do you put in the sacraments or do you put it in in Christ a Christ Alone well they're all the same thing like uh Christmas church or one they're one flesh as Saint Paul says right and the sacraments are just the means of uh of Grace of Christ's Grace like everything I'm sort of uh in favor of the Sola grazia uh the Catholic style of solar grazia the Catholic interpretation of Sola grazia everything is Grace um if you want to point if you want to point to something that's not Grace then it's not uh it doesn't have being like for example sin sin is not Grace but sin has no being and there's no there's no ontological being to Sin Sin as Saint Augustine said sin is not a thing but a way it's a way of being a way of acting a way of thinking a way of doing um so yeah everything is Grace and um I'm a very very jealous monotheist meaning that I hesitated even to embrace the Trinity and the Incarnation but I I did so on the the um I guess uh well I I became convinced of Christianity because of the historical analysis of the times uh preceding Jesus and leading up to Jesus in the time of Jesus and the time following Jesus it's just the historical analysis of that um using uh you know common sense I'm not a scholar but just looking at the competing the competing stories of the different monotheistic religions like who who is the Messiah did the Messiah come and who's this Jesus guy is he the Messiah it's just pretty obvious to me that uh and of course you have to realize of course also that when I became a monotheist I had a lot of Grace uh which enabled me to see uh differently the texts like the Bible and uh the writings of the fathers and stuff like that which as an atheist obviously I had a at a much darker intellect and a much weaker will although my intellect is still dark and my will is still weak but just touch very briefly on uh uh it's tulip right the Five Points can you just sort of name them and give a really really quick overview of them right so uh funnily enough I've only been a calvinist for a few months so I'll get them up just so I don't make any mistakes not a problem better not to make a mistake I mean you know I go to Catholic church and the the priest has said the mass a thousand times tens of thousands of times maybe hundreds of thousands of times but he still always reads from the text because he doesn't want to make a mistake so I think it's a good it's a humble way of approaching the truth to not rely on your own understanding right so the first point of Calvinism is total depravity um that is when and perhaps I'm not explaining it um to the fullest accuracy but my understanding is that total depravity refers to after Adam and Eve ate from the fruit original sin came about and at that point we we weren't able to draw near to God he was only able to draw draw himself to us so that we could be in a right relationship with him unconditional election is a similar idea that um it's not that it's um it's not that it's all us coming to God but um it's God who elects some and he refuses to elect others and that's that determines whether someone's saved or not limited atonement is that it's refer it's the topic that I debated with pine sap whether or not Christ's death was intended to um it was intended to save everyone um and it wasn't it was intended only for the elect irresistible Grace let me I'll just get up a more full definition of each of these ideas sure right so irresistible Grace we did actually talk about this a little bit but uh it overcomes the elect's resistance to obeying the call of the Gospel um and then finally we have perseverance to the Saints the idea that when you are saved when you have fully taken root within the Christian faith you can't fall away because God holds on to you um so that that is the Five Points of Calvinism okay uh before digging into the doctrine uh I just want to talk personally psychologically do you you're very new you're very young uh how secure are you that you are numbered among the elect yeah Totally Secure um I mean yeah I think the Bible makes it very clear that um every every Christians who should have total assurance that um the day I wanted to elect if if they truly believe and trust in Christ um there have been times there was one particular time that I referred to where I would say that um you know uh I did not believe and I'm still thinking through that right because before that that period during mid-year 12 um I had an understanding of Christ and I wanted to follow him so I'm thinking through the idea of perseverance of the Saints whether or not you can fall away because from personal experience I can tell you that there's lots of evidence that you can fall away but um yeah at the very least I think the fact that I um had that misunderstanding of the gospel and then the fact that I came back to it probably makes me more assured because um I'm now I'm now able to point to um a point in my life in which I I really understood the gospel which is incredibly encouraging so not to dwell on the negative but I am very interested uh because I'm a great sinner a very weak man and uh I'm interested in uh uh you know this possibility that we can say no to God's grace I mean that that is a Catholic dogma by the way we it's I cannot doubt it as a Catholic that we are able to say no and we are also Able by the grace of God to cooperate with God's grace and to build Grace upon Grace and to eventually um you know get to heaven there's a you know this is going to have to be a purification um but I I have a lot of lust a lust for food a Lust For Women a lust for power well not really lust for power but you know um if you were you know if you were to watch me day to day you would just say I'm just a nice regular guy a little bit weak willed and pathetic but you know I'm not I'm not very spectacular with my sins but I know that I have a certain taste for that vomit and that to roll around in the muck as it describes in the Bible like uh and uh you know Christ said you're not worthy of me if you if you do that you have to set Yours self to work at the plow and not turn back right but in my human nature I'm very aware of The Temptations of the world and the Flesh and my eyes and my taste buds and everything is just on fire Satan is just there all the time telling me hey David look at how tasty the world is like taste and see how good I am that's what Satan says to me and then on the other hand I've got God saying to me taste and see I am good and I know I know which one is the liar and which one is true right I'll leave it as an exercise to The Listener to figure out which ones which but um what I'm addressing here psychologically is the fact that I am weak my intellect is dark I am able to be fooled like I do sin um so that's just a little uh mini confession and that's why I'm very very comfortable with the Catholic Doctrine as opposed to the calvinistic doctrine so maybe just do a similar um analysis psychologically about your darkest time I don't know when it was maybe during puberty or whatever during your your darkest time and uh how you explain it psychologically in the context of being part of the elect like do you become part of the elect at a certain point in your life or is it from the moment of conception explain those things to me um right well yeah I mean lust is an ever-present struggle for most young men including myself and I'm sure many of my listeners um I don't think that was ever What drew me away um I think it was was this sort of um late late schooling period um but yeah that nevertheless I think I myself actually rest assured in in the Protestant understanding of Grace um which is that it is an undeserved gift the Bible says that God doesn't save us with a foreknowledge to anything we will do but he does from from you know within our mother's womb before uh we were born you know Christ wrote our name in The Book of Life so it's not as though well first of all it's a complex question um because you are sort of suggesting that I mean if I were to have died before um before I fully understood God's grace it's a difficult question because then you're you're sort of asking what would have happened if things had turned out differently what if what would have happened if God's will hadn't come about um so I what I will say is that I think yeah Christ God has written our name in The Book of Life since the start um and that yeah he's he's destined some to be saved and some not to um since the beginning of time okay you know it is uh it is one of the most important uh things that you and I can think about that anyone can think about Christian or or not Christian is like you know where where did I come from who am I now where am I going and do my choices matter and uh this is why I favor the Catholic position because not to disparage your position I I admire your position but I disagree with it but you know I do admire a lot about it um but you know this idea that we can ask ourselves do our choices matter and you know I recently started a spiritual Journal so I can keep track like what am I doing what am I doing with my time how much of my time am I wasting how much am I sinning how much am I you know praying like you know I can't I've been there there are things on my bucket list like hey I should you know I should pray more often or I should do these sorts of things different devotions to God um and I haven't really been that good at it but this journal is a practical tool to say hey just be a little bit more self-aware of the choices you make and it's just like dieting like if you just pay attention to what you're eating then the next time if you see on your calendar that you've been eating ice cream and chips for breakfast lunch and dinner every day for the past two weeks then you might say hey that doesn't look too good on paper and even though that's what my desire is maybe I'll go grab some veggies and fruit and some meat and some clean carbs and stuff like that so it's just a little bit of feedback like in this life we have to think about what we're doing and our you know is is this activity that I'm doing or this thought that I'm having or these words that I'm saying are they pleasing to God yes or no like just become aware of that and try to become put yourself in the presence of God and so from a Catholic perspective this is a very healthy uh reflection that we can engage in in order to try to strive to please God more now obviously that's only by the grace of God that we can do this is everything is Grace like I said solo grazia but um I'm cooperating I'm striving to cooperate better and better um but uh there's probably a reason why I'm rambling on about this but yeah it has to do with free choices do my choices have consequences where am I going how do I get there um it would seem that you you undervalue all these questions about the choices we make in self-reflection and make let's let's do a little bit better today to glorify God just a little bit better today it seems like your position would undermine that correct correct me if I'm wrong well yeah I totally value Works um it's just what why are you doing those works so Paul says you know you are saved by grace not by work so no man can boast um The Works are are the fruit of the spirit they're an outworking of the faith so I would totally you know all those things you're doing are excellent um it's just you know why are you doing them are you doing them um to to be more sure of where you're going after you die are you doing it to be um sure of your salvation or are you doing it because of Your Love Of Christ um and the desire to be more like him so those are all things that I'd I'd like to strive to as well but it's just why is the question yeah yeah no I 100 100 agree with you I a hundred percent agree with you but I'm a I'm a spiritual baby taking baby steps so right now I want to avoid hell and I want to you know I want to get to heaven and these this is impr a very very imperfect reason to glorify by God or to strive to sin less or whatever it's a very very imperfect uh uh set of motivations but it's it's a reality that that's where I'm at it's sad it's embarrassing it's pathetic but that's where I'm at and I know that one day the goal is to be in a position where I'm good for goodness sake I'm only thinking about God and pleasing God and I'm not concerned about even my own salvation I'm not even thinking about that because I'm so at that point so elevated into the love of God and the love of Christ that I'm just I'm just there I've arrived but I have to be honest I'm not there okay I'm not there yet I'm selfish and I just want to avoid hell and I want to go to heaven that's where I'm at and now it is also true that I love God because he's infinitely lovable and you know my love for God is a very weak and imperfect love it's just sort of like an intellectual thing like hey do you love the infinitely lovable thing yeah I do right obviously like if that's the multiple if that's the question in your theological exam like if it gets reasonable to love some somebody who's infinitely lovable yeah okay so that's about as deep as my love for God is it's just like yeah obviously like it's just obvious yeah I love God but am I there am I there with the great Saints and I'm not sure how you feel about the great Saints but am I there with the great Saints burning on fire and totally ecstatic meaning outside of myself and not thinking about myself no I'm not but that I I do have to get there I mean I have to get there I have to get there because the alternative is help so I have to get there there and it's only by God's grace that I'm going to get there so I'll just let you reflect on my ramblings there yeah I guess I don't think you can cancel out like this isn't what you're doing but I think some Catholics have this idea that you can cancel out these bad things you've done you can make yourself more sure of Salvation by you know undertaking all these Works whether it be pilgrimages or um I know I can't quite remember what it's called but I I suppose indulgences and all these other sort of workspace methods of Salvation particularly among those who are struggling with you know some very strong sins but what I would say is that any amount of sin that we've ever committed and everyone has committed sin um makes us as far away from God as possible in of ourselves um and that you know you can do as many good things as you like but it's not going to make you any more saved um I mean I believe that all sins are equally sinful I don't think as a Catholic position you guys have your deadly sins um and yeah and things like that I think I think having right and I think having the idea that I have makes me more sure of my salvation because I don't know maybe there's a bit of a difference between our understanding of Grace but but it is an undeserved gift um yeah and it has no idea we see it as we see it as completely undeserved obviously but the the difference is that we see it as a dance where it's like God gives us a little bit of Grace and then we can say yes and cooperate with that Grace and we'll get more grace and we can build Grace upon Grace and all of the grace obviously is on merited but the you know the the cooperation like there's a Grace that you receive in order to cooperate with the grace and it's just like I think that Saint Augustine said it very very well when he said that um in heaven when God crowns our merits okay so this is what Saint Augustine said I know you don't believe in what he teaches but this is from a Catholic perspective when when God crowns our merits he's crowning his grace he's crowning his own gifts to us so this is what we need to understand when we talk uh Catholic and non-catholic when we talk about Grace when we talk about works we need to understand that yes works are the fruit of the grace and of the faith yes yes we agree with that and when God crowns our merits he's just crowning his own Grace that's all he's doing so it's just a completely it's a completely solo grazia position but this the thing that a lot of non-catholics don't seem to understand is the relevance and the pertinence and the power of that cooperation like everything in between the very first Grace and being crowned in heaven in between there there's a whole dance there's a whole thing called life and it's Rich it's complex it's full of danger it's an adventure okay it's not a big waiting room where it's like you're in you're out now just wait no it's it's a very very dangerous adventure and if you don't watch yourself you may find yourself that you have striven in vain as Saint Paul said like lest I you know fall short because I had run and not completed the race like this is what Saint Paul talks about excuse me that I don't get the wording exactly right but it's something like that so you know it's a very dangerous exercise life and it's full of choices and uh you know there are consequences to those choices and you can fall away and uh it seems undeniable I just I just don't understand how Calvin and the rest of you uh fail to see that but maybe you could just share your perspective yeah I mean I look at a passage as simple as you know you are not you're saved by grace not by works uh wouldn't wouldn't striving and wouldn't that dance be be a work it's a it's a physical artwork yeah but it's though it's just like you said you don't deny the works you value the works it's same with us and we know the works are uh fruit of Grace we know it so we agree 100 on that part right but but it sounds like but the drama the drama and the danger you can't remove that from life because then you're just like I said you're just stuck in a waiting room like you're going to hell you're going to heaven enjoy your weight I mean that's not that's not what the drama of life is obviously this is just completely obvious that life is not just a big waiting room we have decisions to make it's very very dangerous right it is very very dangerous if you don't feel that if you don't feel that fire that that danger if you don't feel hell nipping at your heels if you don't feel the demons thirsting and hungering for your soul if you don't feel that I would dare to say go so far as to say that you're in danger that you are committing the sin of presumption you know that's that's how I feel as a Catholic and that's just how I feel with the common sense like life is a drama is dangerous yeah I mean Earth this life is certainly not a waiting room um and I don't think like I said we don't do good works um to to get further away from that nipping of hell but um it's clearly you know Christ has given us a Great Commission to make disciples so it's not so much we do good things to secure our own salvation but we do good things to make it clear to others to the unsaved how good God is and to draw to draw them with our words and with our actions to Christ so that more will be saved um and I mean I guess yeah you certainly have that fear which um I think I could probably have related to when I was younger but I just look at something something like the criminal on the cross next to Christ he hadn't done a single good thing except turned to Christ before he died yet he had no fear he had a total Assurance because Christ said today you'll be with me in Paradise yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I I understand that I do agree with that um do you fear this is this is going to sort of get at the heart of the the question in a roundabout indirect way do you fear displeasing God now or yes or no well I feed I suppose I feed his pleasing God because um because of the morality of it because um of how good God is um and how how deserving he is of me being good to him but it's not a fear of my own destiny or my own salvation if I if I fall if I turn against him um in a in a for a short period of time in sin uh just because anyone does that right yet yet all the elector saved yeah yeah it's a very subtle question it's very very elusive trying to nail it down trying to and I'm not just saying on your side on my side on both sides on every side of this question it's it's very Elusive and if you speak with an atheist who doesn't believe in Free Will that's elusive trying to nail them down to to understand that it's that there can be no morality without free will there just cannot be morality without free will but what do you say about uh the connection between morality and free will because it seems like you're just sitting pretty and you can I know you're not a fan of Luther but Luther said allegedly said sin and sin boldly because we can't lose our salvation um right well I'm I've I haven't read much of Luther I don't know what context that quote would be in but Paul clearly says you know to a church that was doing the same thing shall we see in the grace May abound certainly not um so we we don't sin because we have a love of Christ um but yeah morality is is closely interesting interestingly enough um it is it is closely related to the idea of free will like I said um the the sinful morality that that aim that immorality um actually binds our decisions to be only good only Evil all the time um and so we have free will but our will is only to do evil because of our fallen nature um and only by you know God um stretching his arm out to us and inviting us in can that will be truly free because now we have the freedom to do um what God made us to do and that's obey him yeah I I'm thinking now I'm thinking now about a monk a Catholic monk who was disturbed because he wasn't sure of his salvation and he wanted to know like am I going to be saved God yes or no just tell me like just tell me and God's answer do you want to take a wild guess at what God's answer was just for fun oh I couldn't possibly tell you no man no no no from a confidence perspective what should what should God have said oh right naturally God would have said that um if you have your faith in Christ if he is Lord of your life and you have a desire to obey him then yes yes you're saved what God Said what God Said allegedly what God Said and this is not some dogmatic uh you know infallible truth but this is a story okay it's just a story but what God Said is you know basically you don't need to know that all you need to do is act as though you have perfect Assurance just act as though you have perfect Assurance he said I'm not going to tell you but behave as if you have perfect assurance and then he was liberated he was completely free and he didn't worry anymore about his salvation he just acted like hey I'm a Child of God I have perfect assurance and then he was free so I the reason I'm telling you this story is because it's very it's very flattering to Calvin and his followers that those those who are like you um believe in uh this uh this Doctrine right I don't know what percentage today of Calvinists have strayed so far that they wouldn't even be recognized by Calvin I don't know that's another question but um you know it's very flattering to think about that story because that's exactly what you're preaching and it's I mean I think it's true I mean I think that's it's absolutely true like you should just why why are you hesitating why are you worrying why are you rubbing your hands and and and uh you know it's because you know the answer I could speak for myself the answer is because I'm attached to the world I'm attached to my sin I'm attached to my all these short-term Pleasures that's why so that's that's my imperfection but um what would you say to me personally because I love God imperfectly but you know I do love God and I'm striving to um have that Assurance okay I'm striving to have that Assurance like the monk in the story and to let go and to die to self and so what would you say to me like you're you're an evangelist you want to you want to help you know bring uh bring I don't know I don't know how you'd phrase it but you said earlier something about like you can be instrumental in God's grace or something like that right so what would you say to me as an individual like I'm a real human being and I'm going to end up either in heaven and hell so what can you say to me right now right well as a Catholic I think uh one of the reasons why um Catholics have I think a warped view of Salvation is that they have a few different um sources of God's Authority one of them would be stories such as this one of them would be the Catholic catechism but I think ultimately the only um sure and the primary source of God's Authority that cannot be overruled is God's word and through stories such as the thief on the cross through Paul's writings to the church um and through the book of Acts where all that simply happened was that they were baptized in faith and they were converted to a Love Of Christ and and poor made salvation clear to them and certain to them I don't understand how you can look at that horror historical account and the letters to the church and Christ's own life and not have a full understanding that we're simply saved through faith by grace and not through our own works it's been condemned right collegianism has been thoroughly condemned we are not saved by our works but we are but on the other hand we have to cooperate with the grace that we get so that's the way God has ordained uh you know the economy of Salvation now I want to talk to you about the Bible thank you for that by the way but basically what you're saying is cut up the middleman and the institution and the church the sacraments and just go straight to God and go straight to Christ and just put your faith in him and I I like you know I like the Simplicity of that but that's just not the way that God ordained the economy of Salvation okay so I want to talk to you to prove my point to prove that Catholicism is true and Calvinism is false I want to zoom in and talk about the authority of the Bible on what basis do you uh have an infallible Cannon because there's no table of contents in the Bible so there's an authority that what I call the church that infallibly declared the Canon how do you get around that gotcha um right I mean I haven't done I don't think I've done my due diligence in in researching um why why the reformers took some books out and kept the rest of them I know that a brief explanation would be that they saw contradictions in the Apocrypha and um and some of the other books in your Bible the president in ours theologically um that would be as you have 66 how many books do you have 73. 73 right we do have 607 yeah you took out seven uh yes if my math is correct yeah uh well this is this is something I would encourage you to look into because it's uh it's gonna lead you to the church as the source the source of authority it's going to lead you to the church and the church is the pillar and the bulwark of the truth right it's not the it's not the Bible it's the church that's the pillar and bulwark or foundation of the truth that's what it says in the Holy Scripture but we need to really understand the authority of the the scriptures and where that Authority from where it derives and the the Canon of scripture you do believe that you do believe that we have an infallible list of infallible books or do you think we have a fallible list of infallible books or do you think we have a fallible list of merely fallible books that contain the wisdom of God and the point us in the right direction the list itself uh I think is something I'm thinking through I know the books themselves um the the books themselves and the writings in them are infallible you know all scriptures God breathe it's God's word uh which I think is probably a distinction between you and I in that I've heard Catholics say the church right God's word and clearly it's God that write God's word the official diet I want to correct you the official Dogma is that there's absolutely no error in scripture and that it is God who is the primary author of every jot and Tittle and every part of the Bible okay so that's very clear to understand that if you're talking with watered-down Catholics who don't understand their Catholicism then welcome to 2022 welcome to planet Earth in the Fallen World okay that's just the way it is I'm not saying I'm a genius that I understand everything about the church but the basics that we you know where we we have access as Catholics we have access a lot of access to our faith to understand our faith and sadly a lot of Catholics just don't bother they can't be bothered to learn what their beautiful Church actually teaches so I want to I want to apologize to you if you've run into Catholics who don't represent the Catholic faith yeah faithfully and I'm not disparaging these people's character you know they're busy with their lives and they're stressed and whatever and it's not their top priority for whatever reason I think that's a mistake to not make Christ in this church the top priority in your life I think that's a mistake but then again I have to admit that I'm just a miserable worm and a faithless sinner so who am I to judge I can't judge but I do wish that Catholics would uh fall in love with their faith fall in love with the church and learn about the church and learn what the church actually teaches so that's the end of my rant but it is a pet peeve of mine so I wanted to uh to stop you there but you can continue now yeah so the the scripture itself I think is infallible the list itself I'm laying towards an infallibility but like I said I want to do more research so I could actually back up a claim like that yeah yeah well you'll be flirting he'll be flirting with an Apostolic religion of one one sort or another and you'll end up Catholic if you really if you really dig into that and if you really follow the truth where it leads you will end up in the Catholic church because there's there's no one else that has the authority there's no one else that even lays claim to the authority I mean the Orthodox I I don't quite understand how they claim the authority of uh having um defined the Canon since the history of the Canon of scripture is very well defined it's very Catholic but as you know the Orthodox and the Catholic has a few splits throughout history and uh so it's hard it's hard to unravel all of that but in either in either case there's no Protestant denomination that makes any sort of claim of uh an infallible um teaching office what we call the magisterium the living magisterium we have uh Christ and his Apostles and uh you know Saint Peter is the head of the Apostles and we have their successors their successors which are called Bishops and there's an unbroken chain of authority with a laying on of hands which is of course biblical everything about the Catholic church is completely biblical and then it's right down to the present day we have this this Authority this is the infallible Authority the the three identify the three um I forget what they call them but these sort of three traits of the church I guess are Authority that Authority I talked about the infallibility and in defectibility so these are three uh three qualities of the church that are not claimed actually by any of the non-catholic denominations I don't think that the Orthodox but I would have to I would have to look into that more clearly to see how they understand these three points yep right and I think that's the second point so the first one which I said that you know Catholics and Protestants um or particularly Calvinists uh divide themselves but I think you're right the authority of the church is the other big thing and it comes down to the passage where um Christ gives Peter the keys to the kingdom uh and he says on this rock I'll build my church now Catholics believe that Peter is the rock but but just before that passage in the verse before um Peter confesses that Christ is Lord and and then Jesus says on this rock I'll build my church and so we believe that the church is built on the rock that confess that uh on the confession that Christ is Lord um not not the rock of the of the institutional Church itself we believe that the church is the collection of Believers those who have faith in Christ yeah but I've heard uh exegetes um who understand biblical Greek analyze that phrase in question whether it's Matthew 16 or whatever it is um you are Peter and on this rock and there's absolutely no way grammatically speaking that he's reaching outside of that phrase it's within the phrase uh so there are grammatical strong grammatical reasons but I really don't care about the exegesis I don't care about what the scholars say I don't care about any of that why I'm Catholic is because of authority who has the authority if it's each Christian channeling the Holy Spirit when they decide what the Canon is and how to interpret the scriptures then we're screwed because you know look at the Christian communities around the world throughout the past 2000 years just look at the contradictions and each and every one was claiming to have that god-given direct Authority from God it's a holy spirit that lives in me the Trinity lives in me and I can identify the scriptures and I can interpret the scriptures and I have God on my side and if God is for us who can be against us and all this sort of thing but the contradictions they cry out for an explanation and if we look at the doctrines one of my favorite um apologetics techniques is to just look at sexual morality and I'm sure you have a very firm sexual morality but there are many many denominations I'm sure you'll agree if you look at the history of the Christian communities there are many that start with firm sexual Doctrine sexual morality and little by little for whatever reason they stray from the teachings of Christ and his church and they end up uh you know doing all sorts of things and not not even to talk about the Cults like the Cults of Christians so-called Christian Cults that have Arisen especially in the 20th century but many examples of that with the sex there's always sex and there's often violence and it's just demonic very demonic um so things like divorce things like contraception things like uh America you know marriage teaching on homosexuality the teaching on adultery the teaching on polygamy the teaching you know against all these evils sexual evils including masturbation you know there are very few denominations that take as heard a line as the Catholic church so can you just comment on that and maybe just fill me in a little bit on the teachings of your community that revolve around marriage intimacy and sex right so I think morally I actually probably share some similar positions with Catholics things like the head coverings things like contraception and I suppose that has something to do with my political background rather than anything that you know my Minister has said um but I suppose my point is that just because our churches as institutions have have these severe problems that doesn't mean that um you know that's an indictment on all of protestantism or all of the Believers like I said I think you place an emphasis on the church as an institution which is why that um if if you look at if you look at the Christian World morally I think the the Catholic church is doing relatively well when it comes to morality aside from uh taking aside anything for anything that scripture explicitly says um about salvation so I think I think you probably win on that point but I think the idea that Protestants have that the institution itself is isn't the church means that you know our churches that really their protestantism say Baptist Church and Anglican church and some Mainline Presbyterian churches they can be doing as poorly as as they are but it it isn't actually an indictment on those who truly believe because I think those who are pushing this theological liberalism most of whom actually don't have that um salvation so therefore they don't actually represent us and so just to be very clear um you you don't have any liberal sexual teachings that you personally adhere to or that your community generally teaches is that right no no I don't I go to a I go to a Evangelical Anglican Church oh you do I do yeah yeah and Evangelical Anglican church and where are they with the Tulip the whole tulip thing right uh I've I haven't heard a sermon or a series on tulip um I think probably they would agree with like at least four out of five points of tulip maybe with the exclusion of limited atonement um you know they're very reformed but um I I don't think they're explicit about it anywhere uh what I would say is that you know none of their sermons none of their teaching causes me any discomfort with my own beliefs and there's there's a variety within the Evangelical Church okay is is the Evangelical movement born out of Reform and what can you trace that back for me right um I suppose it began really with the Great Awakening um during I think the uh 17 or 1800s um but right it is it is reformed I think it's more reformed than some of these liberal churches that you have um I know that morally liberal churches are about as far away from Catholicism as you can get within the Anglican Church liberal churches tend to be anglo-catholic and liturgically high Church they believe that um the um the communion is the literal body and blood of Christ and many other things when it comes to um I mean I went to a Christmas service that was how a high Church angular Catholic that was the only one that was available and then I went to a Catholic Church a few months later and which was um not not um not Latin Mass but it was sort of a Mainline Catholic church and and it was very difficult to tell them apart so there are a lot of similarities liturgically and theologically between the two yeah I did I just want to go back and mention that I don't believe in the church as an institution although Christ did Institute the church so it is an institution but I don't think of the church as an institution I think of the church as Jesus Christ I think of churches the mystical Body of Christ the the bride of Christ and I think of the church primarily as the church triumphant in heaven embodied in the body and soul of Christ and his mother Blessed Virgin Mary like she's their body and soul Christ is their body and soul and that's that's where it's at that's like heaven is God you know the church is Christ and Christ is God and God is heaven and it's all like there's only in in a certain sense I have a lot of Sympathy for the philosophies and religions of the East which are termed monism there's only one thing there's only one reality it's Heaven it's God okay that's it there's the one Mind Of God that's it there is a Catholic uh understanding that jives with that to a certain extent you know that the only reality is God his you know his grace and I think he could you could relate to this also like that uh we are nothing sin is nothing only God is good and you know it's one of my favorite Expressions God is good God Alone is good um so you know there's a sort of hint of modernism but monotheism obviously is significantly different from and distinct from uh from monism because God deigned to create creatures were finite creatures we are we have to admit it we are finite we are creatures we are not God but the goal obviously is to um participate in the life of the trinity in heaven so uh at that stage I mean we remain creatures we remain finite but somehow mysteriously we're being incorporated into the into the life of the Trinity so you could sort of see how monotheism starts to blend with this idea of monism where we're so United with the will of God and with the love of God and just swimming in that love in the life of the Trinity that it's almost indistinguishable from monism uh so I want to emphasize this because the mystical element of the Catholic Church the Catholic church is the mystical Body of Christ it's not just an institution like any other Institution and I want to emphasize the mystical and the the love of God and the incomprehensibility of God and I want you to talk about all those wonderful things from your calvinist perspective is do the Calvinists have a hyper rational intellectual Outlook where there's no room for mysticism or do they get transported in prayer to uh the unification with the one or just talk a little bit about mysticism from the calvinist perspective please right I think the very fact that um I haven't come across much mysticism suggests that uh it isn't present much in the in the uh calvinist church or at least um uh I don't have a a great understanding of the history of it um I think I I don't know how relevant this is to the idea of mysticism but I think the church should be as approachable as possible I think we should make it as easy as possible for people to approach um salvation approach the body of Believers um as a group um and sort of feel feel welcome within the church um I think that yeah things like things like the praying that you're referring to that would make us more one with with God I I do it's it's not obviously we play we place a high value on prayer but perhaps for different reasons you know we pray and I don't know maybe I don't want to misrepresent you but I we pray so we can communicate with God as he communicates to us it isn't an LA sort of spiritual or mystical element of Assam becoming more one with god um you know we're one with God as a body of Believers and we'll be entirely one with God in heaven with new bodies um in his presence but um yeah some of this Mystic mystical stuff is just not not anything I've had any background in uh the closest you can get to that within the Protestant Church would be um you know your charismatics and stuff um with faith healing um and speaking in tongues but but very little of that is at all present uh in in reformed circles particularly within the Western world yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I myself am very cautious about uh the charismatics of any denomination even the charismatic Catholics that just sort of keep a distance because I'm just skeptical and I'm just a little bit wary and I know that Satan likes to put on a lot of Pomp and ceremony put on a show uh so I'm very very skeptical but I know I also admit that it's that God can do what he wants to do and he can he can pour His holy spirit onto people and they can have uh mystical experiences you know like I mean I think it's good to have a healthy dose of skepticism and to protect yourself from falling prey to the snares of Satan I think that's very important um are you are you uncomfortable with uh are you uncomfortable with the mystical and the fantabulous too it depends how present it is in scripture like I think many aspects of the Catholic in the Orthodox Church are cultural things that they've picked up picked up because um they're unique players in the world and their unique history yeah um and things that weren't quite present in the church you know uh I can't look to many passages that refer to the sort of things that um the Catholic church and the Orthodox Church practices regarding mysticism okay really like what well I suppose that's my point is that um you you refer to things like praying and becoming more one with God I mean what would be other examples of the mysticism well you didn't hear about Paul getting carried up to the third of heaven or whatever what's the passage can you remember what's what's the context of that he he says yeah yeah uh uh Paul third heaven I'm sure you can Google it faster than I can I know 14 years ago was caught up to the third heaven whether in the body or out of the body I do not know God knows second uh Second Corinthians uh something something 2 Corinthians 12. I'll have a look at it there's another definitely guys some mystical experience I mean mystically right so there are many things in a mystical uh about our faith um it's I guess depends what you mean by mystical um it's just not a term we use much is my point uh even if we believe you know in everything that happens in scripture I think that there is less right so you see lots of spiritual um and sort of miraculous events happening in Acts uh what I would say is that much of this is so that Christ so that God can prove um his deity and like his existence through miraculous acts I think Christ did this as well to lead people to him but I think that stuff still happens in the Eastern World um in sort of um the global South and in many of these poorer countries where there it's it's much more spiritual in a sense you have like witch doctors and shamans um and demons and all that um yeah so just as just as God operates differently uh in this world as he does in in that World um or that part of the world I think Satan operates similarly as well he entices us with physical things like lust and and money and power but he um he sort of operates in in other parts of the world through demons and possession so I think God makes himself present in in scripture um during that period of time and then also today in poorer um sort of culturally different countries through Miracles but then he makes himself present I think here through things like apologetics and logic um and um scripture and and scholasticism that sort of stuff so I think probably that's why um well I agree this stuff happens still and it did happen in God's word it's just not present in our in our culture and we're in where we are there was another we can keep talking about this still but um there's another thing I was talking with a friend uh online on Twitter about confession and um yeah Paul calls on us to confess our sins to each other uh and Catholics I think probably connect that with um confession like to a priest whereas I don't think that confession to a priest is something that Paul calls us to do at least um he doesn't emphasize it in the same way that you guys do when it comes to being one of the sacraments so we can keep talking about this and then I'm happy to go I'll just I'll just deal with I'll deal with confession right away I mean it's all about Authority once you realize once you examine the Canon of scripture and you come to an understanding that it has an infallible source that can the authority that defined the Canon of scripture is as infallible and not only as infallible but more infallible than the Canon itself once you realize that then you're going to start asking yourself what is this infallible Church where is it what is it and how does it and what what does this church teach where is it and what does it teach and so uh then all of these questions about comparing contrasting your private judgment you're leaning on your own understanding to interpret scripture and leaning on the understanding of the experts in your in your Christian Community once you realize that you're just leaning on your own understanding you will quickly and easily and gladly give that up to have the authority of God almighty Jesus Christ having an infallible teaching Authority here on planet Earth because that's what God ordained positively that's part of Salvation uh the economy of Salvation God instituted a church and he his holy spirit embodies that church and guides that church protects that church and we have a living magisterium that will protect the faith and teach the faith and explain the faith and uh the holy spirit is protecting the church from ever teaching formally teaching error you know so uh uh that once you arrive at that through your investigation of the question of the Canon of scripture then the sacraments why are the seven why aren't there seven and a half or 13 or two or none or whatever you know those questions just don't come into play because you just say you're just bowing to Christ at that point you're just bowing to the authority of Christ okay Christ said they're seven sacraments who am I to gain say Christ and when I say Christ I mean his church Christ and his church are one so when I when I bow to the authority of the church it's synonymous with bowing to the authority of Christ it's the same thing there's absolutely no difference and you have to remember that earlier I talked about Christ being in heaven with his mother Body and Soul whereas uh most of the I mean the majority the overwhelming majority of the other Saints who are in heaven are there in Soul only waiting for the Resurrection The General Resurrection um when I talked to one of the reason I emphasized the church triumphant in heaven is because that's where we have the Real Purity of the church in the church suffering in purgatory there's a purification taking place it's very painful very long that's why I don't want to go there hopefully uh and then of course here in the church militant it's a complete mess we've got wolves and sheep's clothing we've got weeds among the wheat we've got uh Sinners pretending to be Saints we've got Saints who look like Sinners we've got it's just a complete hot mess here below so the the reason that I'm able to talk about Christ and this church being one is because I'm not deceived by the messy messy nonsense here in this Fallen World and uh oh did you hear what this bishop did oh that's so shameful and how can you believe in the church well it's because this this is not the end this is just the baby steps the beginning the testing round this is where I pledge my allegiance to Christ and hopefully cooperate with the grace is to be purified so that I can stand before God one day and be you know participate in the life of the Trinity to a certain extent so uh again I just want to emphasize that Christ in this church are one and when I bow to the authority of the church I'm bowing to the authority of Christ and to bear in mind the church uh triumphant the church suffering and the church militant to clearly make that distinction because a lot of people just think about the the world they think about the pope and you know they think about the Bishops and they think about the priests they think about the pedophiles and think about the scandals and all that sort of thing I don't think about that I don't think about any of that I think about Jesus Christ and how he is the church he is the church Christ is Christ is everything right and uh as Saint John the Baptist said Christ must increase I must decrease that's what it's all about yeah I guess yeah right so then it comes back to the passage where Christ gives pay to the case of the Kingdom I think uh even if I were to accept the explanation you had about um you know the church really being built on Peter um where does where does scripture where does anything indicate that um Apostolic succession is present you know Christ says what you loose on Earth um will be loosed in heaven and vice versa but he doesn't say that about any of his successes just because someone succeeds him in that role I don't think that promise if it is present in him saying towards Peter is present in his successes it's just it's just your private judgment you're leaning on your own understanding and your tradition sorry to say but your tradition you have a tradition that you've adopted it's a man-made tradition sadly it contains a much beautiful truth of of God and uh I command you for that but um once you realize that the authority of the church is an infallible god-given Authority and that creationist Church one then you're not going to start gain saying you're not going to start asking about well what what did Christ mean when he said that he built his church on Peter or Peter's Faith or this or that he's just not going to ask those things because all you're going to ask is what does the church teach because basically what you're saying is what does Christ teach and you have that Assurance if you want to talk about Assurance I have the Assurance I have the assurance that when I go and I ask what does the church teach I have the assurance that I'm asking what I'm really asking is what does Christ teach what does Christ infallibly teach and when Christ ascended into heaven he said it's better for you it's better for you that I go it's better for you than I go imagine that how could it be better for us for his flock how can it be better for us that he goes away it's better because he instituted a church and that he sent the Holy Spirit the helper to guide and protect the church it's better it's better having the church it's better than having Jesus Christ himself walking on the earth I know that sounds Blasphemous too non-catholic years it sounds Blasphemous but it's Jesus Christ himself said it's better for you and I'm saying this of my own volition I haven't heard this preached in the church this is just my Common Sense deduction Christ said it's better if I go if I don't go I won't send the Holy Spirit into the church and so I conclude maybe I'm wrong but I conclude that it's better the church is better for us than if we had Jesus Christ himself in the flesh right here right now in my room in your room talking to us and explaining to us it's better that we have the Catholic Church that's what he said about what I believe and I would say I I would explain that passage by saying uh like like you said he does refer to the Holy Spirit coming and so instead of Christ being present physically with us um through the Holy Spirit coming which was only made necessary because Christ left by the Holy Spirit Come I mean Christ is actually present within us so I don't think he's speaking to the church it's uh he's not he's not referring to it being better because the church will be present is referring to it being better because Christ is now within us rather than standing next to us um yeah and I think I I think that it's an important question yeah I wanted to just comment very briefly and I'll let you continue um remember when I talked about the Holy Spirit indwelling and the Trinity living within us and how each and every non-catholic Christian Community claims that they can infallibly Define the Canon and then interpret the scriptures that's the problem we know that Christ Sent His holy spirit to guide the church because otherwise we're just left with a bunch of contradictions of different Christian communities claiming that no I'm right about the doctrine no I'm right about the doctrine no I've got the Holy Spirit God I mean no I've got the Holy Spirit God I mean that's the Holy Spirit cannot contradict himself so we know with certainty that when Christ said it's better that I go because if I don't go I won't send the Holy Spirit to God the church we know that that's the case that the church is where it's at that's where the authorities at it's not in the individual no offense to you but you are not where it's at you are not the you are not the the book does not stop with you the bucket does not stop with you it stops with Christ's Church that's where the buck stops it doesn't stop with you you would admit very readily that you are fallible that your interpretation of scripture is fallible right you admit that right yeah yeah I would so that's why we need an infallible church and that's what we got that's why it's better that Christ went away and that's why he sent his holy spirit it's better it's actually better to have that infallible church so I'll let you uh continue with your thread right because I suppose I did ask the question about um yeah whether whether or not that Apostolic succession it can be assumed in in God's scripture or what Christ said to Peter um and I guess you said that when once I have an understanding of the Catholic church and when I enter it and put my faith in it then um then all that all that will almost be negligible um but I think that I have to have an understanding of the apostolic succession for me to be convinced to join the church for me to have an understanding of how the church works and why it's legitimate yeah I mean you would it's I don't know it each each Pilgrim has their own Voyage to take spiritually for me it's all about Authority where is the authority I mean we know that God is infallible we know that we know that Jesus Christ was God we know that he's infallible we know he built a church where's the church he built what does the church teach where is his church what does it teach where is his church what does it change that's it you know so if you want to tell us a question I'm asking if you want to if you want to tell me that it's the Anglican Evangelical uh whatever like I mean okay you can try to make your case for that you could try to make your case for that are you going to try to tell me that they're the ones who defined the canon in scripture are you going to try to tell me that or do you have to go and do some research to find out you know I'm not I'm not I'm not trying to make light of uh of your newness and in the faith I'm not making light of it but there's some very very very serious questions that you have to ask yourself about Authority very very serious questions and then you can appreciate the scriptures and what the scriptures teach because you have an infallible guide that will help you and it will prevent you from going astray with things like the sovereignty of God what does that mean the Free Will of man what does that mean grace and works and all these sorts of things and then all of your private judgments that you made you can let go of the the wrong judgments you made and you could say hey I was right about these things they align with what Christ and this church teach but until you have an infallible church until you have an infallible teaching body that can tell you where you're wrong where you think that you're right then you're just going to be leaning on your own understanding you're just going to be using your private judgment and look at look around you at all the different Christian communities what they're doing they're contradicting each other and now some people like to say well they don't contradict each other on Essentials just on non-essentials okay well if that's the case then I'm I'm also saved according to the non-catholic Christian uh I don't think we would say that I would think we would say that the idea of um the Salvation issues are the essentials and and that's where Catholics and Orthodox and Protestants break right that's that's where the division is so um yeah yeah yeah I just think I I guess you're saying like like you were talking about um you know what is the church is the question and that's the question I'm asking you is the point I'm making like to understand the church you have to understand Apostolic succession I don't think it goes the other way around I don't think you understand the Catholic church and put your faith in it without understanding you know what what happened when Christ said um these are the keys to our kingdom what you loose on on heaven will be loose on Earth such and such that's that's what I would suggest I would just I would just I would just if you're if you're a serious Christian who believes that the rule of faith is the scriptures the Bible That's the your infallible source of uh saving truth right if if that's where you're at and a lot of non-catholic Christians are there I would say that's where you have to start you don't look at the Eucharist and John 6 and all this sort of thing no you look at your beloved source of infallible Christian truth saving truth you look at that and you say where did it come from who had the authority to define the Canon and if you can answer that question then you will have found the church that Christ built and then you can ask what does that church teach it's really it really is that simple it really is that simple so I'm not asking what is the church I know what the church is the church is Christ because that's what Saint Paul says I'm asking where is it if I go down if I go to the Westboro Baptist Church down in the states and you know they're teaching all kinds of crazy stuff uh or if I go to you know uh whichever denomination you want to choose I I grew up in a denomination Believe It or Not which today has ordained its very first atheist Minister it's a Christian denomination it's the most popular denomination in Canada and they have recently ordained an atheist Minister that's how far they've strayed yeah so uh you know we don't need to look too far that's the church I was baptizing I was baptized in that church um do you believe in baptism that baptism is necessary or not at all uh I think that I don't think that any any uh there's any spiritual out working when you're baptized I think it's simply simply a symbolic communication of um the newness of life that the cross gives you that washing away of sins okay okay and so you would say zero sacraments there are zero sacraments well I don't actually I don't quite know I mean I I see a value in um in baptism I see a value in communion like Christ calls us to do these things whether or not um they're salvific I see I I mean marriage isn't even a uh I don't believe it's a Sacrament within the Evangelical anglicanism it's so important Christ will calls us to become one flesh within marriage um I mean Christ calls us to confess our sins there's all these things that you've useful and valuable but uh like like Paul says you know we're not saved by work so no man can boast it's not a Salvation thing but it's still an outworking um that communicates our love of God yeah yeah so um we will in about 15 minutes we're going to wrap up so I want to make sure I want to give you an opportunity to touch on a couple of little uh bullet points maybe that you had coming into this like things you'd like to talk about or if there's something that you thought you asked me but I didn't really give an answer or something like that you can press me on it and I'll try to satisfy you a little bit more yeah probably another question right I think probably another question I've had I'd I would have would be uh Mary's Perpetual virginity I can point to two passages where the Bible is really explicit that Mary had um Sons yeah well what does the church teach ER right so yeah I guess my point is that uh it seems to be a blind trust and Authority if you if you're not able to yeah trust in the authority of Christ it's once you once you believe that Christ and this church are one you have to understand my perspective if you take one thing away from this inter this dialogue it's the perspective of the it's that it's the perspective of the Catholic the the faithful Catholic that Christ and his church are one flesh it's a deep mystery of Saint Paul says Christ in his flesh or Christ in his church or one flesh and that the the authority of the church is the authority of Christ it's just it's just that simple once you understand that you don't have to believe it but if you understand that that's what I believe then you'll understand how I'm able to just brush aside all the scholarly all the scholarly work elbow grease that went into establishing that Mary is indeed a virgin before during and after the birth of Christ I've read the theology I've read the skull the school you know the scholarly you know research or whatever you want to call it um and it's not contrary to reason but that's not why I believe it I don't believe it because of all the rationale and the reasoning and the grammar and the languages and the you know the historical context and all the everything they bring to bear on I don't believe her Perpetual virginity because of any of that I believe what about that scripture though right price teachers yeah I believe in the scriptures the scriptures the scriptures are inerrant they're infallible they're inerrant and there is no error in scripture and the primary author of the scriptures is God that's great that's one of the primary sources of my faith the other primary source and the preeminent one is tradition because the Bible is the written tradition right it's the the part of the tradition was written and that's what we call scripture but the sacred deposit of Faith consists primarily of tradition and then of subsequently of that written portion which we call scripture that's the deposit of faith and I have the utmost faith in that because why because that's what Christ tells me is the source of faith and uh so yes I value it I respect it I'm interested in it I love learning about it but when I debate with a non-catholic or when I talk with a non-path like I don't waste my time trying to bring up arguments from scripture and this and that it's just like let's first find out where the scripture came from who had the authority and if if Christ did build a church that had the authority the infallible authority to define the Canon of scripture then hey let's find out where that church is today and let's find out what that church teaches and let's try to conform Our Lives to Christ and to conform Our Lives to Christ we have to listen to what Christ is teaching through his infallible church so I hope you understand my perspective I know you don't believe because if you believed you would be Catholic right now you don't believe right yeah yeah you don't believe it yet but you have the potential to believe it and you could believe it especially if you dig into the question of authority and the Canon of scripture I think it's I think it's very very uh powerful and I think it's an absolute essential step in your faith Journey you have to confront it you may come out the other end with all sorts of uh justifications for why you still believe that the Catholic church is not the church that Christ built and that the Holy Spirit indwells you may come up with all sorts of sophisticated arguments that will keep you in your calvinist tradition but you're always going to always going to have to admit that you are fallible your interpretation of scripture is fallible your assessment of history is valuable your assessment of uh the Canon is valuable everything that all your private judgments are fallible right and so then you will have to you will have to admit that you are claiming for yourself the same thing that every other non-catholic Christian has claimed and they all disagree with you about all kinds of different things and uh you know I'm not comfortable with that I would not be comfortable with that but um many many Christians are because they they clearly believe that they have the Holy Spirit and their friend whom they love and respect is being deceived by a Satan it's like that's what it you have two Christian friends who belong to radically different denominations with different you know fundamentally different uh outlooks on very essential uh saving truths and they each look at each other as obsessed uh you know oppressed by Satan if not possessed by Satan because how dare you claim that you're getting directly from God something that is clearly opposed to the god-given truth that I embody because I am the holy spirit so you understand my concern right I don't think that I'm leaning on my own understanding and I think anyone who is safe isn't leaning on their own understand so then you're leaning on the Holy Spirit you're lean on to being one of the Trinity yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah right exactly you're leaning on God and so when you and your Christian brother who disagree about stuff get together one of you is lying about relying on God leaning on God one of you is one you can't both be leaning on God because you disagree and God does not contradict himself right so you have to understand this this is the problem with protestantism I've got nothing again personally but it's just it's just inevitable if you think about Authority you're going to have to understand that you're you are calling God a liar or your friend is calling God Alone maybe you're comfortable with that maybe you're comfortable thinking that you're part of an exclusive club and that all these Christians are you know calling you know uh calling Satan God because that's basically what's happening if if you're coming with these interpretations that are private judgment because they contradict your judgment which is based on Direct uh Knowledge from God then where is it coming from is it merely human or is it demonically inspired like what would it what would the source of that be if it's not God what could The Source possibly be right well well you would believe the same thing I mean if you were you're debating with me right now and I don't believe in you know we are you know I'm saying I'm filled with the Holy Spirit you're saying you're filled with the Holy Spirit and we're having this discussion so it's not exclusive to Protestants I mean Catholics Catholics one Catholic uh could be a could not have an under serious salvation the other one could they're both in the church they're both partaking the sacraments both baptized and and you could be having the same discussion both of you convinced that you're filled with the Holy Spirit if it's a disagreement about salvation issues then one of you is and one of you isn't it's that simple but the spirit doesn't allow us to there's a there's an asymmetry there's an a perfect asymmetry and you're trying to you're trying to level the playing field but it's not level the the playing field is not level what I have the null non-catholic has what I have as a Catholic as a faithful Catholic is I know who and what the church is the church is Jesus Christ therefore the church has the infallible Authority and the indefectability that is promised to Christ Church and Christ Church alone you now if you wanted to make that claim if you wanted to make the claim I'd be very happy I've never met a non-catholic who's made this claim but if you want to make the claim that your church that you can identify as the Evangelical Anglican or whatever it is or this the calvinist church or whatever it is if you want to pick one and make the case that it defined the Canon of scripture I'd be very excited to hear you make that case and I'd be willing to shoot holes in it very quickly and easily but you don't make that you don't make that claim right you don't make it well right well I I just I think you're placing a centrality in uh who determined the canons of scripture when it's not determining the Canada scripture that's Central it's the scripture itself and what the scripture says so um you know whether or not fall out of the sky did the Canon follow to the sky or is there a history to like I mean have you read the history of the Canada scripture there's a long history to the Canon of scripture and all the controversies and all the questions and all the debates and all the you know the prayers and uh you know the different Christian communities that fought over it and uh you even talked about uh the seven books that were removed like these are all historically documented parts of the Journey of the Canon of scripture so this is something very concrete it's very historical and you can actually examine it and you can actually use your god-given intelligence to make a decision about what happened what really happened what's going on and who had the authority to define the Canon of scripture the reason I'm emphasizing it is because it's it's going to bring you into the Catholic church it's going to bring you to the Catholic Church unless you're stubborn and proud if you're stubborn and proud I mean uh even God can't help you because the people who end up in hell they're they're just victims of their own Pride they're not humble they're not willing to stoop low and enter into this ugly black vessel which we call the Ark of Noah or the Catholic Church you know the in the days of Noah a lot of people were scoffing at Noah and he tried to preach the good news and they saw his ark and it was covered with pitch inside and out it didn't look too attractive uh just a big box basically and uh they were eating and drinking and making Mary and uh they refused to get in only eight Souls were safe so it's the same thing today a lot of people mock the church they don't understand the church um and my Stern warning to you is that there's absolutely no possibility of salvation outside of the Catholic church so you have to get in and the way to find the church I'm sure if you believed the Catholic church is the church the one true church that Christ built I'm sure that you would get in warts and all right you would get in warts and all because you know this is a Fallen World this is the church militant and that Christ is perfect and god is perfect and that here below we're working out our salvation with fear and trembling right yeah and I guess my point is I would say to summarize God put the scripture together working through um the elect through the holy spirit that was within them that allowed them to distinguish um right from wrong I mean he made a scripture obviously at some point in history he would have gotten the church to the point where they had the complete scripture and so it's that I put Faith I do put Faith in a church and I do believe that church was is infallible and I do believe that it put the scripture together it's just that that church is not a physical institution but it's Christ Church the body of Believers so I'm making the same claim as you is my point it's just that we just the the variable is what is the church you're saying it's not the same question it's not it's not the same clamp and I'm sorry to to sort of bully you on this but it's not the same thing because when you ask me David what does the Catholic Church teach on this particular thing I can go to the Catholic church I go to the Catholic sources I go to the living magisterium I go to the Vatican website I go to the you know the approved books and I tell you this is what the Church teachers but if I ask you if I ask you which church will you go to which documents will you go to which experts will you go to I mean I mean you've got I say God's word right okay you're only going to go you're only going to go to the Bible no no I'm saying it's solo scripture isn't the scripture scripture only but it's scripture above all levels right so that's that'd be the first thing I go to certainly right but if that's the only thing that's inspired by the god I ask you what does the church teach you can only say with certainty you can only say with certainty these things in the scripture this is what the church teaches and you can't that's the efficiency you can't even tell me you can't even tell me what the church infallibly interprets you are stuck you with your Bible and the Canon is just some historical thing that happened and you have faith that it was the church and that God inspired these men to define the Canon and to remove these seven books uh 1600 years later or whatever right and you just have faith that that was the case but when I asked you what does the church infallibly teach about the interpretation about certain scriptures you can't tell me because you don't have a church you don't you don't have a body it you don't have a teaching body you don't have a living magisterium if you did then you would not be accusing me of having an Institutional church because then why can't you be the you'd be called the the pot calling the kettle black at that point because you would have a living magisterium you'd have an Institutional Church you would have a catechism you'd have a website you'd have the whole thing with uh you know sort of Catholic answers it would be calvinist answers or yeah yeah I can tell you what the church I can tell you what the church uh infallibly um well as was the phrase used it what the church how the church infallibly interprets scripture in regards to Salvation because the church the church is is uh is locked step on salvation or everyone who's saved believes the same thing about salvation which is which is the only thing that that matters above all right so I can tell you in the same way that you can tell me what Catholics believe about salvation I can tell you what my church the body of Believers believes about salvation because we all believe the same thing it doesn't differ from what the Catholic Church teaches oh yeah of course yeah it would okay yes so everyone okay so let me get this straight everyone's in lockstep everyone's in lockstep and everyone agrees except for those who don't yeah definitely [Laughter] except for those who don't so that which are you'll say the same too you're saying all Catholics believe the same thing about salvation except for them Catholics no no what I'm saying is that only Catholics when asked what does the church teach only Catholics have a living magisterium and uh an ongoing growing body of these this accumulation of Doctrine that's well documented and it's apostolics its Apostle Apostolic in its succession only Catholics have this source of infallible teaching throughout the history of the church the Calvinists don't have that they can point to their Bible and they can say everyone agrees about the essential saving truths except for those who don't well I mean that's that's just a non that's a non-starter that just doesn't that doesn't doesn't get you off the ground at all because you're admitting that there is a disagreement you're admitting right away there's a disagreement all you're saying is you're right and I'm wrong that's all you're saying but what you're saying the same thing I'm saying I'm saying I'm right and you're wrong but what I also have on top of that is I have a church I have the authority of a church you don't have that you don't have if I asked you what what is the oops what is the uh if I asked you about the priesthood for example uh can women be priests what does your church teach what does your church teach about women in the priesthood what does your church teach about well I would say no but they would say no but my point is that the church agrees the elects believe the Believers agree on salvation so you know you can say well you know maybe you have the wrong idea about how often we should do communion or the wrong idea about ordaining women but ultimately all those who are saved believe the same thing about salvation and I do claim to have a church and I do claim to have an infallible source of information it's just that we that's what we do for my church is not an institution like the Catholic Church my church is the body of Believers under Christ and my infallible teaching is the Bible you know you can have more documents than I do but I don't think it makes those documents any more correct or valid um you know they can have a more complex church but I don't think it makes a church any more valid then or simply let me try let me try to uh make you understand in a different approach okay so I have a church my church has a website vatican.va okay anyone that has internet can go and check out vatican.va or whatever it is okay um you don't have like his on my on my website I've got uh it's not my website but my church's website it's got uh infallible dogmas and it's got uh the the the non infallible or fallible teachings and it's got everything in between it's got disciplines it's got dogmas and it's got uh everything in between okay um and there's a development and organic development of Doctrine where it's not dogmatically defined at first and then over time it gets it gets more clarified by the by the cheat by the church and then eventually sometimes for practical reasons because of opposition from different sects outside of the church there's pressure put on and then these things get clarified and defined and then they end up being formally defined as dogmas and this is a process that's ongoing and uh we have an accumulation of these doctrines and they're stored in their garden they're protected they're interpreted they're taught and everything else okay you don't have if you do have that if you do have that then please send me the link to the church the church that Jesus Christ built send me the link and I want to see there's absolutely no good reason why the church that Christ built would not be accumulating the teachings and solidifying and organically developing these truths because there are logical implications God gave us reason and Free Will and we're able to think about cogitate Prey Upon prey on these ideas and we're able to infer and we're able to have connected truths that come back from these other established truths and then it just builds and builds and builds and builds by the grace of God we're able to grow our understanding and uh that's just a natural that's just a natural thing in any in any science and theology is the the queen of the Sciences so in any science we have this accumulation because we we dig and we dig and we dig and hopefully we're digging prayerfully right and we're digging and digging and thinking thinking and we're coming up with these connected truths and so if your church is doing the same thing if your church has a website and it's doing the same thing and it's accumulating these doctrines then you're just the pot calling the kettle black I mean it's just the same thing you just another Catholic institution right accumulating these doctors but if you don't have that then you're proving my point which is that I have something that you don't have I am not just in a perfectly symmetrical situation with you where you say I say I'm right you're wrong you say you're right I'm wrong no it's not symmetrical I have this church that's been accumulating Doctrine and you don't and if you do send me that link because I want to see um my point is that Cross Church doesn't need a website it's that before before websites were created obviously the church still existed the Catholic Church still existed libraries I've got a library like where's my Bible I can't even fight it but I've got a library you've got a library as well the library's maybe your library is a little inaccurate maybe so books could be taken out but there's no development of scripture Christ hits the beginning since the scripture was created however you believe it was created that was it there's no development of scripture that's the most traditional thing protestantism Calvinism is more traditional than Catholicism because there is no development of scripture God gave us his word and that's that if God wanted to develop scripture maybe he would have written maybe he would have gotten us to write more books that that were infallible scripture but he only gave us the 66 books or you know that's that's where the disagreement is right yeah I think I want to ask you I want to ask you finish your thought finish with her right so I think that we are really on the same page we're making the same claims I'm saying this infallible Church you're saying there is one I'm saying we've got you know a set of documents you're saying you've got them but it's just which documents are correct am I 66 books correct or are your 70s 73 two books correct 73 73 yeah I want to ask you uh briefly before we wrap up here um yeah in the Old Testament what did Moses teach about divorce hmm right so um so right so in the Old Testament um it was I I the only the thing I remember most is Christ saying you heard this but now I tell you you can only divorce um if there's actually unfaithfulness I'm trying to remember what Moses taught because I haven't read much of levitty because I haven't read much he taught that you can issue a bill of divorce okay and what did Jesus say Jesus said he only taught that as a concession because you're stiff-necked okay because you're a stiff-necked selfish rebellious people that's why Moses gave you divorce it's a concession it's a concession so what do we see from the Old Testament to the new what do we see we see an organic development of Doctrine we see an organic development of Doctrine and organic development of Doctrine that's what we see in the scripture but just a few minutes ago he said there's no development of descriptions you said that you just said Exodus don't have to Exodus I'm saying after the Bible after the 66 books there's no development in terms of in terms of what's infallible yeah yeah we agree on that we agree 100 on that we agree 100 there is no uh there is no the public Revelation is closed after the death of the last Apostle Saint John the public Revelation is closed there are no new truths in this sacred deposit of Faith the sacred deposit of faith is sealed that's it it's sealed that's it so you and I agree about that it's just the unpacking of it it's just it's endless to unpack it if you've ever read the Bible which I'm sure you have you know the layers and layers to be unpacked you can unpack it you can spend a lifetime you could spend a million lifetimes unpacking the layers of the word of God and that's what the church has been changed this is the interpretation yeah the doctrine does not change the doctor there is no change there is no change in the infallible truths of the Sacred deposit of Faith there is no change possible it's impossible right because God does not contradict himself he's not make mistakes he's not changed his mind the understanding our understanding can deepen but it's an organic growth so like I said we can have logical implications that hadn't occurred to us before and then suddenly it's well wait a minute okay if my christology is correct then suddenly my mariology is being enrichened over here it's not changing it's just being enrichen by the christology over here wow okay we've really plumbed the depths of christology by the grace of God and wow now we know that Mary was the mother of God because Christ is God Christ has two Natures he's human fully human fully Divine so Presto wamo now we have a richer mariology this is the organic development of Doctrine and it's it's in every science every science has it but the the deposit of faith is closed it's fixed there's nothing new there's nothing new it's only our unpacking of it our understanding of it our digesting of it and our logical seeing the logical connections and then suddenly we have more richness that we've unpacked and we've understood so I hope you understand that we're not adding anything we're not adding anything the Catholic church is not adding anything God forbid um if what we're talking we're talking about now is interpretation that I can put to the rags of Augustine and Luther and um Calvin and and just they're not infallible but they are they are you know greater understanding scripture I'm just saying that we're not as diff we're different on salvation and that on all these other things we're not as different as you think we are uh is my point I don't think the Catholic church is unique in that sense well I mean you know um we're not that different even on salvation because you know I think that everything is Grace and that uh the cooperation is a fruit of the grace like our cooperation with Grace is a fruit of Grace and what does that yield that cooperation yields more grace and more cooperation and more grace and more cooperation and so on and so forth right it's just like it's fertile God's word is fertile so I don't think I really don't think we disagree that much about uh Salvation frankly I mean uh obviously there are some uh you know if you really dig down really deep then uh you know the issue of free will or something like that there might be some heard disagreement because we firmly believe it's a dogma of the church that we are free and not absolutely only God is absolutely free but we we can make some degree of free choices and uh they have consequences and these sorts of things but I really don't think that um you know I'm coming down pretty heavy on you about the Canon of scripture and how you have to get into the country only only because only because I'm passionate about Christ and his church and I want you to experience the fullness of uh Christianity and because you're so young and holy and devote uh you know I'd like to have you on my team you know yeah yeah I say to you I would say the same to you thank you very much but I'm not young I'm not young and I'm not holy that's the only difference no well that's a good point listen it's been a real uh real pleasure meeting you talking with you and I hope uh I hope you learned a little bit about my faith and my church and uh I hope you'll come back and we'll talk again okay you too can we do quick summary statements like like less than a minute do it yep so I mean I would say where we where we the the lines that we break across is what do you put your faith in uh for salvation I put my faith in um Christ alone uh our through faith alone through Grace uh and uh I I mean we didn't quite get into that it's in such intensity but to your audience I would say you can be a Catholic you can be within the church but if that's what you put your faith in then you are saved if you put your faith in the institution if you put your faith in the sacraments then I don't know how you can say you're saved but that's that's my closing argument yeah I would just say I agree with you 100 it's everything is Christ everything is Grace put your faith in Christ the only uh detail that I think is very important is that Christ did build a church and where is that church and what does the church teach and you will not be less faithful to Christ by finding his church and obeying his church and by the way all of the ancient greeds say I believe in the church they say I believe in the church in the same phrase when they say I believe in God the Father I believe in God the son I believe in God the Holy Spirit I believe in the Catholic Church okay it's the same it's the same it's the same because Christ and this church are one so that's my closing statement I hope you come back uh God bless you uh I'm uh I hope you don't mind but I've uh enrolled you and your family in a Perpetual mass of the Holy sacrifice the last decent for you and your family all day every day well not all day but once a day till the end of time and you don't believe in all that mumbo jumbo but I do so that's my Goodwill offering to you and in exchange I'd like you to please pray for me and mine okay I will thank you thanks for having me I'm sure I'll be on again sometime we'll have you on by the way your name means Jesus right you know that right it does yeah yeah Jesus saves I think yes God Saves um yeah yeah yeah nice name so we'll talk very soon we'll talk very soon my brother thanks for taking the time thanks for having me see ya God bless bye