CVS Live Guest - 2020-02-08 - Matthew Murdock

Author Streamed Saturday February 8th, 2020

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Another informal chat with Matthew Murdock. We discussed authority, and the Church, as usual. It is always a pleasure talking with my brother from another mother.

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Under Construction

These YouTube transcripts are generated automatically and are therefore unformatted and replete with errors.
I'm doing well yep Saturday so I'm just heading into town to go pick up my daughter East is mad at friends house and I apologize to the viewers that I'm always in my truck when I do this thing but it's the only time I have a minute of peace so I'm not getting harassed by a bunch of little halflings and this lady that's always harassing me to do things for her I had my I I had my I had my mic mute my mic muted so people couldn't hear me basically all I said was hey how's it going in Matthew what's going on so nothing not a big deal so what did you want to talk about in terms of Jesus Christ and God and religion and hell and all that good stuff well um I want to talk about any of that stuff that's all good stuff I think we that we ended our last conversation we were talking about we nailed a lot of really fun things down but I think the last question that you asked was something concerning the church so maybe we can talk about some church stuff and I guess you know if you wanted to talk about some more things about Hell I just read a really cool article I sent it to you that kind of describes what my view is of Hell you know being Gehenna and all that type of stuff but if you wanted to rap about that yeah let's let's start with the church because that's more exciting for me okay cool yeah what is did did Christ build a church yes or no I believe I believe he did and where is it well I think like what can I ask you define the word church because the biblical word is the ecclesia the Greek word for the gathering that's the word that's translated or translated yes it's Church it's the gathering of invisible people right now yeah it's a physical gathering of people it's in the in the Old Testament ecclesia was you know Israel when they when they'd come together and congregates to worship Yahweh or Jehovah I'm talking to a Jehovah's Witness it witness at work talking with them and they get very upset about the Yahweh thing I think it's Jehovah which I have no clue but I said yeah why but anyways yeah so the gathering of believers Saints the called out ones the God's special people so how you would define church yeah I met the churches I just made a joke about it being the gathering of invisible people because it's not yeah obviously it's not it's not invisible people its visible people with a visible hierarchy and they have a website and everything right like I mean even the jobless witnesses have a website and if you're if they ask you what is the website of the hierarchy of the headquarters of your global church and you're like oh we don't have one that's kind of embarrassing and we do have what we do when I do I have we do a headquarters thing know we do have a headquarters we do have a website you know there's God God is the author of communication all forms of communication so God used the technology of physical writing in books he used the the human authors of the scriptures to write his word in a sacred deposit of faith that written component all the holy scriptures and so he's not afraid of technology whether it's a tablet or a pen paper a microphone a computer he's not afraid God's not afraid of technology God made nature to be natural and it is natural and it's good it's all good and he he uses all technology so it's like God's afraid to use the Internet right God is using God is using the Internet oh yeah I agree I found you through the internet you're like my best bro I'm like God and I'm like a gun for you oh yeah but I mean he yeah he used media to communicate but he didn't do it right away you know he's weight you know the like you the tradition argument that it was passed down orally he used oral the offense mission of things like before Moses ever codified anything or did yeah I get what you're saying there but no I don't think I don't think there's like a stamp on our foreheads that says this is this is the one or that's the one where we have stamps on our foreheads that say that we belong to that church because I mean yeah I mean if I'm talking to the Jehovah's Witness and I say well our headquarters is here and here's our website there yeah well we have all that to right here BAM so what well yeah and then you know the difference between your guys and their guys it's all about the Mormons they say it's either us or the Catholic because we're the only ones who have the keys to the kingdom and have the priesthood so I mean the websites not too impressive I mean there's there's a lot of no no but the reason I mention this websites a reason I mentioned the website is because we need a way to have access to the essential saving truths that have already been well established in the church right I mean it's the reason I mentioned the website is because you can wake up and say hey I believe in Jesus I found a Bible in my hotel my motel like dressing cabinet or whatever and I believe in Jesus and now I'm a Christian right and then you start reinventing the wheel oh the Sabbath is on Saturday and you know yeah de Voort divorce is permitted and all these different sort of doctrines and you know you can't mix flex and and wool and you start you just start making like I mean you just use private interpretation to build your own religion you say I converted to Christ because I found a Bible in a hotel room and so now I'm going to start reinventing the wheel you don't look at tradition you don't look at what is the church like you can't at the same time you can't say well I'm a member of the church because I believe and then at the same time disregard all of the established saving truths that are well documented they've been hashed out rote tradition you can't just disregard all that and say well I'm gonna the buck stops with me I'm gonna reinvent the wheel and I'm gonna make my own religion so when I meet ya when I meet a Jehovah Witness when I meet a Jehovah's Witness and they say oh I have a website that's not the main point the main point is where can I find out what you teach what are the established teachings and that I can go and I can show the Jehovah's Witness this is a novelty this is an innovation your history the history of your stupid man made religion excuse my flippant language there excuse the language but the the the history of your religion is clearly recent and it's an innovation it's a novelty and I can show that by looking at history and looking at the established teachings of the Christian community from from you know from the very beginning at Pentecost right up until today and one of my favorite ways of looking at the continuity and tradition is looking at sexual morality and looking at the doctrines on marriage looking at the doctrines on contraception looking at the doctrines on the issues surrounding life you know those are the main ones but those aren't the only ones but they're the ones that are most subject to change because people are easily seduced by doctrines that are a little bit more comfortable little bit more easy to adopt - right yeah yeah I'm with you doctrine I totally I totally I know that we have a problem with all the different denominations and someone doing exactly what you said by starting their own movement because they'll see one certain aspect of the scripture or some idea that sticks out to them and they make that the main thing and separate themselves from everybody else so I get that I totally get that but do you think but what what gets you in the kingdom what got you in the kingdom before there were Pope's and bishops and all of these things in the time when Jesus had ascended and it's the book of Acts and Peter's preaching his first sermon and I think it's Acts chapter two and you know it's like the the Holy Spirit's poured out and people are asking what they should do to be saved and there was no there was no physical building there was nothing none of those things to appoint these guys - and they made no mention of this type of organizational Church the hierarchy or any of those things they said to repent and believe so if I'm like if I'm that guy that's on a desert island and you know it's a stupid analogy about them to go there anyways because whatever so a Bible washes they're just a total heathen pagan out there and you have had no access to the teachings of the church or tradition or history or any of those things the Bible washes up you read it and you're convicted and you believe in Jesus and you read the things that say if you believe in on him you will no wise perish and to repent and in his heart he's repenting and every day he's praying and drawing near to God and being convicted by the Scriptures alone is that guy in or he's just screwed because he's just in the wrong place at the wrong time no every God God is cooperating in a way that is optimized dynamically optimized for every human in every city in every circumstance in every situation right so the the atheist pedophile who just wants his own pleasure at everyone else's expense God is cooperating with that guy maximally in a way that is maximally optimized for his eternal as greatest eternal happiness so yeah there's absolutely no difference between any two of us we're all sinners and God's working in an optimal fashion with each and every one of us but there's also that objective component there's a subjective component like I'm stupid and I didn't I didn't realize that there's a whole bunch of history already established I'm going to reinvent the wheel there's that there's that subjective component but there's also the objective component that we live in 2020 and if you ask anyone where's the church they'll point you to the Catholic Church and you say where's the headquarters of the church they'll say well the Holy See is in Rome currently and it's been there traditionally from the beginning with a couple of exceptions when it went to a venial or whatever like I mean it's a it's a dirty and complicated history but in 2020 yes when we're the headquarters of the Christian churches most of them will point to Rome right because it's just like this is the reality that we live in now and anyone if you ask anyone where the Catholic Church is they're not going to they're not going to be confused and point you to the Baptist Church or to the Mormon Church or anything else everyone knows where the Catholic Church is right yeah but not you you're not going to find agreement on that being the center of Christendom because I mean the majority of you know Protestants and you know Eastern Orthodox pretty much would even deny that Catholics are even Christian I don't believe that but I'm just saying in the traditions that I grew up in not grew up in but was in my early years and Christendom you know that was the stance there is that you know Catholics you know that's that's the what the of Babylon and all of that type of stuff so not until I met you did I really actually hear people really sticking up for the Catholic faith people really quiet about it even my family who are Catholics and everything they don't really tried to convince me otherwise you know mm but so I'm just saying if you if you ask if you're asking people this and that I mean you get a different answer from everybody and you know you could easily say that these guys in the beginning these these bishops are all doing the exact same thing that the Reformers did just earlier on by you know interpreting the Scriptures by their own private interpretation and making their own decrees and rules and laws and to building up and making us believe do you believe that there is a religion do you believe that Christ built a church and that church is protected from teaching error concerning faith and morals or do you think that Christ allows his church that he built to fall into error concerning faith and morals and that basically we have agnosticism as our agnosticism is more powerful than our Christianity ultimately because Christ is not guaranteeing through the Holy Spirit when he ascended into the Father and he said it's better for you if I go if I don't go I won't send you the Holy Spirit which will guide the church into all truth right you you would have to be saying that agnosticism trumps Christianity because it's just one private judgment against another it's one private interpretation against another you think that's the case or do you think that Christ guarantees that we have access to the essential saving truths of Christianity I mean about this before yeah well this is where my question came in Annie and you slipped in a word there he never he did not say the Holy Spirit will guide the church he said you will guide you he was talking to people at that time you know his disciples and maybe you could say it's like a personal thing he said you know he's gonna lead and guide you and not and I've often wondered what that truth is and that's what I'm wondering that's why I'm asking you the essential thing that puts you in the kingdom because I think the kingdom and the church the ecclesia the congregation all of these things they're synonymous the kingdom of God jesus said you know the kingdom is here in your midst back in those days so Jesus Christ is ruling and reigning ever since he said that he was back then even before the Ascension when he was talking to the the Jews were saying where's the kingdom at then where is he he says that's not found by observation the kingdom ISM is among you so it's his kingdom and invisible kingdom or like you're saying or was it a physical structure that he was building because I mean you could you could see it that way as well he said the kingdom is in your midst or amongst you or within you is what all of the different translations of that verse say so on what the essential thing that places you either you're in the kingdom of God or you're in the family of God or you're not right is it so so what is that essential truth so I think that whatever that truth that the Holy Spirit has promised to lead and guide those early disciples into after you signed it ascended and he was and they were promised that he was going to bring to remembrance all the things that Jesus Christ taught were what was written in the scriptures later forty years later whenever the Gospels were written and passed down you know so I think that those guys were yea protected from misrepresenting Jesus Christ in that period of time when it was just all word of mouth and everything and while they're under intense persecution to write down all of these things that we'd called a New Testament that you think that could be a possible thing or it all comes down to what the essential saving things are so if the essential saving knowledge that you have to have entails all of these dogmas of the church have been built up over the years or passed down over the years or however you want to say it if those are it then yeah Christ would have had to preserve those for us but if the if those saving truths that you're talking about in the truth that was promised that would come when the Holy Spirit came is just those saving truths which is what belief believe and repent Jesus Christ is the son of God he was crucified died buried rose on a thursday on thursday sunday and because when paul says this is the gospel I think in 2nd Corinthians chapter 15 that's pretty much all he says is that you know Christ who Jesus is that he died and he rose again and that is coming again and you know does the church does the Bible teach how many wills Christ has how many natures Christ has how many persons are in Christ and only serves Elias so you do know how to Center those you do not consider those essential saving truths absolutely not because I think that if that was essential Paul spilt a lot of ink lot of ink on a lot of very nitpicky nitpicky details of early church life and in his epistles and it's not mentioned once none of that stuff the I don't think that the any of the Apostles had would have any idea what you're talking about if you said is their dual nature of Christ to do this to do that and ask them those questions I think Peter would be looking at you like you had two heads what are you even talking about I don't think they had that even those things even in their vocabulary that's why they never expressed them when they had every opportunity to do so you know what I mean I said no I don't think that those are essential because if they were essential I mean there there are certain stories in the Gospels that easily could have been cut out and replaced by one paragraph explaining everything that you just said easily you know I mean yeah and if if the Holy Spirit is in fact the author of scripture in the way that Catholicism teachers and Protestant Protestant churches teach as well which I'm still you know weighing out if it is like a magical God used human authors like he uses a pen to write stuff he had every opportunity to to make those issues very clear or at least mention them at all so I think if they were indeed the thing that you need to know to get in or out he would have included that yeah well don't you think everything's included but not everything is explicit and you know like obvious leave it the dual nature of Christ or even the inner Trinity the mechanics of the Trinity that there's nothing I mean you got nothing in the scripture that even comes close to giving it even it's sloppy definition of it it's just we have to put two and two together and use inference and say well there's one God and those three people who have godlike attributes then there has to be three and one two one three and they came up with this I think a genius way of explaining it but I mean it's still really confusing and doesn't make a lot of sense so I don't know do you believe in the Trinity that God is three persons in one essence um I think it could be like that but I think we could totally be wrong and I don't know how I don't know how we would actually know that because it wasn't defined clearly enough I think it's really really uh I don't know it's it's not defined in Scripture clear enough to say that someone's going to go to hell if they don't believe that in the certain way that they do like who was the guy yeah Irenaeus area c area areas yeah that dude i mean his his uh i think he he was like a mode list wasn't he or Jesus was a created being or something it's just it's just a man he's just a man not good it's just a man that guy well you know there's certain statements in scripture where Jesus says things like that too so I don't know do you think like there wasn't a consensus back in those early days either because that guy what is his name again err ariannus area serious he had a lot of followers to in the early church had a lot of bishops were on his side the majority so you know but yeah he had the majority vote you know and so before before they came to that decision a Nicaea or whatever you could have believed his his view of the Trinity and still been saved then after they made the decree saying no this is how you define the Trinity and anyone who who doesn't follow this pattern is now anathema then then all of a sudden it's a damnable doctrine and that makes no sense to me that's like so the day before you can believe this and be fine then the day after they make this decree or whatever this ruling at the council the day after that it's like nope you're going to hell it depends what you know right a mortal sin requires three components objective matter objectively evil matter all knowledge of your intellect and free consent of your will if you don't have all three it's not a mortal sin it's not a damnable sin right it's just a venial sin so you might burn it off in purgatory but if you go through your whole life following the light of God that illuminates your conscience in your mind and you happen to belong to some weird sect that isn't up to date with the fullness of the Catholic teaching then you won't be held accountable for that I mean this is the same as well no yeah that's great well what's that what that tells me is that that's not obviously if that's the case then that's not obviously one of those essential saving truths because I think that without that saving truth no matter what I mean if it's a saving truth it means it's vital it means you're dead if you don't have it alive if you do have it so it can't be a wishy-washy well you just didn't know or you just grew up you know then that could say the same thing for the the Mormon he was raised in Mormonism he was only taught yeah a heretical view so he's fine so then that would mean that there being a part of the Catholic Church of being a part of the Mormon Church or a Protestant it really doesn't matter because God's going to judge you subjectively on your heart right and your belief in your faith so I'm told that that would that would suggest something about like an invisible church like Catholic in the sense of a universal Church olbes all those who confess belief in Jesus Christ and and not just that they believe but they repent and believe and live that lifestyle after like denying yourself and all that following the teachings of Christ right I mean if you're doing that you're pretty you're probably gonna be okay there's a hierarchy of dogmas there's a hierarchy of certainty to in the among the dogmas and the first Dogma is that God exists and that we can know with the light of natural reason without recourse to Revelation that God exists okay so that's that's at the top of the heap and then down at the bottom of the heap we have you know little details of you know Mary ology or whatever at the bottom of the heap which are more recent chronologically in the church yeah and they're more dependent on those higher dogmas right I mean it makes me vital are they like like if I'm if I just say like we're talking about the Trinity what if I'm just like well I just don't really believe that then I'm not I can never be a Catholic unless I say I believe it just just the same as all the way on down to the bodily assumption of Mary can i really be a Catholic and good standing with the church if I just don't believe that and I openly don't believe I can right so no so so there's a hierarchy like you say but really not really I mean you have to you have to buy the whole enchilada you know I'm saying you can't pick and choose oh I like this but I don't like that or else you're not really Catholic you're not really in there you're not really saved but then you have the kind of the squishy oh well it's subjective it's a subjective on everyone's personal experience okay it's like those are two very different things well they don't match the Lynch pin the Lynch pin the Lynch pin that holds them both together is that we are commanded by God to know him and to love him and to serve him and to get to know him means that we have a responsibility to seek the truth and if we seek we'll find and if we find we'll be saved so you can't just say well I'm gonna remain in my ignorance we have an obligation a moral obligation to seek the truth to find the church that's why I keep asking non Catholic non-catholic Christians is there a church did Christ build a church if so where is it have you done your research and you looked into it where is it what are the essential saving truths what's been established what has not yet been assets' open to interpretation and what's been firmly established where we can't deviate from this one particular point of view whether it's Christology or merry ology or whatever it is like if it's established by the Church of Christ if it's established it's established and we have to be obedient we have to educate our conscience we can't just be ignorant because it's easier oh I found out that the church allows for invincible ignorance therefore I'm going to strive for ignorant snow the church commands me to seek the truth that's where I go I'm not going to take I don't have to take a stand on anything that's really like how my mind works I might go oh yeah I just won't say one way or another cool yeah right on but now you say I can't do that so thanks a lot you big jerk but do you have a Bible next to you anywhere yeah I don't I don't want to close my yep really accidentally yeah lose yeah sure but I think it's like acts 17:23 ish around there but it's Paul I think talking or maybe it might be 1725 but Paul is talking about how we're all blindly groping our way to finding God and that's his will that we seek Him and like we're in it gives us beautiful picture of just people blind people in the dark groping around trying to find grab hold of God I got it you got it read that to me bro acts 17:26 and following from one man he made every nation of men who inhabit the hope to inhabit the whole world earth and he determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for him and find him though he is not far from each one of us for in him we live and move and have our being as some of your own poets have said ah that's good huh yeah I like that so we're just groping and trying to find him and he's right in front of us like he said like this your honor yeah a refreshing water or like the virtual reality when he takes out when the headset is removed and God is just right next to you like pulls off that mask and he's arm is around you like Here I am son let's talk you know and that that's amazing to me III think about that all the time yeah it's not far from us and he's actually right here and so he's talking to these pagan people right and acts that's who yeah I was talking to you nothing people he's using he's quoting pagan sources in because he says and him we move and breathe and have our being that's like Zeus or something that was a when one of their pagan gods that was the phrase attributed to them or attributes of him but he's like no that's our God that's that's that's pretty amazing so are we just groping toward him and he likes that and that's pleasing we're gonna find him he's right here or is it this you know this long like la book of facts and figures and articles - 14 X you know states that you know all this is it Batman is it really that well I mean I want to read through like these documents that you send me and Stefan I start reading a motion it's so hard to read there's so much stuff and it's just so boring round like a lot I agree with like that's why I'm glad you're doing that Vatican thing where you're Vatican to deal that you're kind of Bob given some commentary gosh man that it's so hard just to sit down and just plow through that stuff I'm just like I can't do it well I mean when you read the Bible do you read it without punctuation without any accents and just you know no verse chapter and verse numbers or do you do you benefit from the hard work that Christians have put into the Bible to sort of break it up and illustrate it and put chapter and verse I mean don't don't like you should not frown on these learning aids that the church gives you you should not say oh it's boring having chapter and verse numbers they're artificial they were introduced by man later you should say thank God that Christians care enough to make it easier to read my Bible they're publishing it for and why they're making it inexpensive and they've got copies online I can access it for free I mean you should just thank God for every help that you get on how to find this church or get into church I mean it's don't complain about how democratic it is yeah but I mean I think like what you and I are doing right now where we're groping and we're searching and we're trying to find find him and get to know and I think he's I think he likes that yeah I think that's what he wants us to do and but like but back to what we're saying so those essentials I mean we got to nail that down yeah because it can't it can't be a subjective thing that you tried your best and you did the best with what you had it can't be that and if you don't accept article one to our 10,000 13-3 but her and your you're out which is basically what the Catholic system is you like I said you have to buy the whole enchilada or else you're not in at all so which one is it it can't be both well you need to be honest with yourself and say am i Catholic or not right now you're not and you're being honest about that if you the last thing I want is for you to pretend you're Catholic and say oh yeah yeah I believe in the Assumption of Mary and then it in your heart of hearts you like no I don't that's that's that's how you go to hell right lying lying to yourself lying to God whatever so I mean I mean God is not stupid he knows that people have limited education they have limited cooperation with his Grace's and he's working with you in a way that is maximally optimized for your greatest good so you can trust you can trust him you can relax and you can enjoy the journey is the Catholic Church the church that Christ built yes or no well you don't need to panic like oh my god I might be I might be outside of the Ark and I might drown like I mean if you if you know that God exists and you love him and you want to serve Him and you want to find him and you want to find out did his son come to earth and to suffer and die for you and build a church and protect that church from error concerning faith and where else if you want to find out about that you can find out and you'll find out at your own rate don't compare yourself with anyone else and don't be panic-stricken like I'm gonna be damned because I'm not in the I might not be in the right category I have the right checklist of dogmas whatever don't be worried about that just knowing your hurt that you want you want God you want to know God and that's why you're digging into the Scriptures because ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ so you're digging in because you love God right so he sees that and it credits to your account it's it's a credit to us faith so yeah you don't need to panic or worry but my question to you is if you belong to the church where are the established church where are the established truths according to this church that you belong to that you think is the church that Christ built or do you not know where the church is that Christ built you think it's some nebulous ambiguous invisible thing and it's just all you need to do is you know believe in Jesus Christ he don't even need to believe the Trinity you just need to have some vague love of God and some vague belief that somehow Jesus is the Messiah the Son of God and you put your faith in Him and you're saved is that it are those the only a saving essential truths the only essential signatures or I mean are they few are they many is or is the Bible is the Bible nothing more or less than the collection of all the essential saving truths and it's up to your private interpretation to get as much or as little out of the Bible as you're able or what you know where are the essential saving truths of the church that Christ built or do you not know where the church where that churches well I think that the essential saving truths were passed down word of mouth by Christ to the Apostles the Apostles to the or just the disciples apostles included the twelve included but I think there were there are more people you please and like you see this in act you see you see people just forming house churches these people get saved and then BAM they move in and they're there there's a house church like they brought salvation to this family just by bringing the message of the gospel which is you know repentance and faith in Jesus Christ and those very basic things I think we see that modeled for us exactly what people you know we have we have Peters sermon the original sermons that kicked off global thing and fulfilled all that Testament prophecy of the Messiah and what he was going to do we have a record of it in the Bible and I don't think the Bible is perfect or anything but I think like what you're saying I think that as far as faith and morals go uh yeah I think that that that's that it's been protected from error that way so I think that in those recorded words of Jesus Christ our our contain all the essential saving truths so do you think that there's extra stuff that Jesus left out if all the sayings of Jesus were written down the world could not contain the books I want you I want essential ones the ones that were written down had to have been written down on purpose you know because they must have been like the the most important ones is on it you're right I mean he's probably said a bunch of other stuff but what he or the Holy Spirit wanted us to know I think probably got written down or the Apostles hey damper that job that those made it in to the gospel event I mean right right yeah I wasn't a fair idea anyway yeah but before I respond to that I want you to say I want to give a shout out to those in the live chat a bit Chris mr. Rick's Lord Mozart 308 as usual my good friend from the YouTube and I want you Matthew to say hello to Nick's Tannhauser Regis commented in the live chat so give a shout out to a next composer he says yeah you too lowered Mozart in my home he did yeah nice to see them a nice to see them in the live so yeah the essential saving truths of Jesus Christ I mean they they are contained in the sacred deposit of faith there's nothing new that can be revealed the public revelation is closed as I never tire of repeating with the death of the last apostle and how do I know that I know that because I have a church right so how do you how do you form a judgment do you form a private judgment a private interpretation of Scripture where did the scriptures come from and obviously you don't believe the Scriptures are perfect so therefore you think it's just a collection of writings like any other may be slightly more reliable than some other collection that you could come up with but it's not inherent and infallible the way that the church according to me the Church teaches I mean I believe that the church that Christ built is in the Holy Roman Catholic Church and the church answers all these questions for me right like what what is that what is the Canon of Scripture is it in art is there any error contained entirely or in part of the scriptures and the church says no there is absolutely no error in the entirety of the Scriptures or in any of the parts of the scriptures and it's not only it's not only a truth pertaining to faith and morals it's a there's no error whatsoever in any part of Scripture so I if I could show you one right now there are a parent there are apparent contradictions and apparent errors but they there's such thing as reported there in the foibles of men are reported in the Bible so you need to distinguish the literary forms and this is this is this is um this is petty okay I'm admitting this is a petty thing but I can show you there is a discrepancy of an account in second Samuel and no first Samuel and in second Kings for describing the same exact event and in one account it says that's Satan incited gave it to number Israel and then in the second one it says Yahweh it quotes Yahweh saying I am angry with Israel therefore I incited that God saying commanding David to number Israel because he's mad at Israel one says it's the devil and one it's God in the first person doing it you can't have it being God in the devil at the same time in the same way okay oh you can look that up and read both accounts it's just it's very interesting but you see that sort of thing used to challenge they rocked me but variance with God nothing can shake me now because I feel like I actually have a personal relationship with him that I know him in a way that like you could throw the Bible out I would still have Jesus I'd still have my god in mine yeah be okay you can't shake me anymore cuz I know him if my if it's all built on the word of man like a theological system or biblical inerrancy as soon as you find like you said if you find one thing contradictory in the dogmas you'll abandon Jesus Christ and I hate that you know but that's how I was to if I found one thing that was an error in the Bible in any way that's like my whole faith was built on biblical inerrancy so as soon as I saw an error in there oh crap then my faith is in vain oh that's not right and I I want you to reconsider that too because that does not necessarily follow that therefore Jesus Christ is not who he says he was or God does not exist and all that stuff that's not that does not follow up necessity there are many there are many many arguments there are many stumbling stumbling stones stumbling blocks in scripture and in tradition and you can meet for example you can meet set if accantus that build these elaborate though kwarrel arguments against the recent Pope's right and against the Vatican Second Vatican Council you can read long long long involved articles which are citing the Saints and saved a felony and all these Saints and early you know early church fathers and the the counsels of the church and Trent and Vatican one and all the rest and they'll build an argument why the recent Pope's are not valid in their heretics and that's not the other thing but I have a church so I trust the church and I submit in docile obedience to the church and the church tells me it doesn't tell me what to think in every my new detail but with controversial questions you know whether it's Christology mary ology or ecclesiology with the controversial questions of the day what are the things that could rock my world as you said I've never ever ever ever come close to him being having my Rock Tour having my faith shaken because I have the firm foundation which is God the Father and if I'm wrong about Christianity I can still be a monotheistic monotheist and so there's absolutely I don't feel threatened in the slightest I'm ready to walk away from Christianity if it's not true I don't want to belong to it as I never tire of saying but because I have a church because I have faith in the church I have the answers to all the questions of all these controversial attacks that come from said of a Kansas tour where they come from Mormons or that come from Jehovah's Witness or seventh-day Adventists or just generic Protestants or nondenominational Christians they've all got arguments all of them against me in my church I've never ever ever felt threatened in the slightest why because I have confidence in the church everything everything they teach is consistent and it's if you look at the early church worship they believe in the real presence of the Eucharist that alone continuing up until today the only candidates I have left are the eastern oriental churches the Oriental Orthodox the Eastern Orthodox and you know the Catholic Church I mean there aren't a lot of candidates for me right and I don't know how you can sit there and look at church history and the real presence that's that's talked about consistently in the early church fathers and even by st. Paul himself and and not join either an Eastern Orthodox and oriental Orthodox or the Catholic Church I don't know how you do it really frankly well I mean I think that because they got that right good I do believe in the real presence and I do believe that I just don't believe that it has to be some certain guy doing the incantation over it maybe you know but yeah I do believe there's a magical mystical deal in in the Bott the true body and blood of Christ because what Jesus says in the Bible that's recorded that's one of those essential truths right and Jesus maps it out says if you do not drink my blood II my sweat as you have no part of me makes it very clear so I believe it did and so you know you can say that chop that up to something that's really important because he spells it out very clearly and anyone can understand it but on what they say you've told me that you don't think that the Bible is perfect and Saint Agustin famously said if there's one Arabic part San Agustin said if there's one error in any part of scripture we may as well chuck the whole thing in the garbage because we can't have certainty there's any doubt on any passage he was wrong that was that was a statement fatalism and all sorts of things yeah yes that's wrong and like I said I can show you and that's that's just some that's that's his private interpretation of Scripture and Agustin Agustin Harvey said he didn't even have access he couldn't read Greek he didn't know the original languages yep he could read the Latin he'd the Latin right to let the Textus Receptus or whatever the Septuagint Septuagint but that was Greek oh he he could read Latin he only had Latin versions oh yeah Latin Vulgate which we're not we're not as good we have better manuscripts now any anyways like I said if you look up that that Samuel the passage in Samuel and and in first Chronicles or second Chronicles you can look it up read those two things I can show you a discrepancy and two biblical accounts so Augustine will have to just go back to being a pagan but yes it sure success to any of this stuff but the church I could show you right now that there's a discrepancy in an account of the same exact passage so it can't be inerrant in that way but like you said like the the standard that you say the church is protected and which is it seems like a slippery way to get out of out of it you know they're saying oh they can be wrong about all this other stuff but never about faith and morals I can say the same thing about Scripture it can be wrong about if it was the devil who incited David or if it was God who died he David because there's two different authors writing a certain historical events that got information for different places okay no problem let's let's just let's just as far as faith and morals and who God is and how you know God and how you in salvation and all the saving truth let's say that the scriptures were protected from misleading even anyway in those areas which I don't think there's any way that you can pull up something to say oh Jesus says you're saying this way then Paul says it's a different way there's nothing this that I know of and if that was the case then yeah I mean but I mean I trust it as far as you know that the words of Christ were faithfully recorded that's what I trust that but I don't think it's a perfect book that fell out of heaven I think there's a lot of errors yeah that man errors in it san agustin was a bishop in the holy roman catholic church he is he was infallible when he taught in his role as bishop in union with all the other bishops and union with the head of the bishops the pope but and so the reason that the church endorses his teachings where he was right and he and the church does not endorse those teachings where he was wrong is because the church has infallibility and effect ability and the authority to go and be of an authority to make judgments when their controversial questions and when saints have opinions that differ from the mind of Christ then the church corrects the Saints and if the if they're if they're saying it's too convenient though it's not fair oh yeah he's infallible until he says something that we don't like or doesn't line up with our other doctrines oh no he just was well cut that will will put the black highlighter on that part of what he said but he's 100% right over here do you wanna slip roots to the Union do you want to give a shout-out to cure and listenings in the comments on the left cheering my brother I'll be dog what's up hugs nice to see you nice to see out here Kieran say hi to your brother too and your father everyone so the question is the question is one of authority by what authority do you judge and interpret the Scriptures and by what authority to even know which books belong in the Canon of scriptures and it's it's the same question always always always to the non-catholic without well that's a slippery one too because well how do I oh it's the basic authority what's the authority on which you base your judgments is it private do you admit that it's private judgment um as far as which books I would accept or not accept well there are all sorts of Givens there are all sorts of Givens right now like you accept the 27 books of the New Testament and you accept all 73 books of the entire canon of Scripture do you or do you not I haven't looked into the Maccabees and all the other but I did read what was that one the Book of Wisdom Sirach Book of Wisdom yeah yeah that sounds like scripture to me dude yeah I know the voice of Scripture and I know like when I'm listening to the Gospel of Judas the Gospel Thomas all these other things but I thought I've checked out you can just tell you can hear like you know Jesus said you hear my voice and all that like you can tell it's a bit different it's not the same voice it's not the same person and yeah I guess the only way I can know that is yeah it's it's a private interpretation I just my gut tells me that that's false and I can tell I can I can just tell I don't know so yeah I said there's a private that's a private thing I guess as far as authority goes because I think that the Apostles had Authority and of course the authority comes from Christ but how do I know that those were actually Jesus Christ's words I have to take that in fate and and really like I said since I had that experience that encounter I mean I can hear it I know that that's that's Jesus Christ that's that's who he is you know I I trust the words of Christ I don't really trust with the same confidence all of this surrounding stuff even the stories surrounding everything I'm not I don't need those to be inerrant in order to believe I just believe in the teachings of Christ and the Apostles that we have recorded for us so when I when I converted to God the Father I was a generic monotheist and I was compelled to do public worship and then by Providence Catholic monk walk Catholic monk walked into my computer store where I was working and for servicing on his computer and I asked him if I could talk about God with him and the rest is history I went to a mass and I was moved by the by the worship of God and so I asked if I could become a Catholic even though I didn't believe in the Trinity or in Jesus Christ or in the scriptures or anything sacred tradition or anything right I just believed in God the Father so it sounds like you're sort of in a similar boat you want to know God to love God to serve God in this life so you can be happy with him forever the next life the question is why was i drawn immediately into the church whether that church is true or false that's another question but I spent every waking moment since that time in 2009 trying to prove that the church is a false church and so I can go back to so I can find the true religion but it turns out I'm convinced that Christianity is true Catholicism is the fullness of Christianity and at the time when is it generic monotheism my my suspicion was that Islam was the true religion because at a simplified montes sort of monotheism and none of the complications and none of the baggage that's associated with certainly with Catholicism but my question to you is why are you comfortable with the insecurities you have I've been struggling every day to solidify my faith to find the one true religion and if I do belong to a false religion to find out so that I can leave are you are you on that same journey that I was on and you're just your course is more of a meandering course or are you moderate or are you mired by a psychological impediment which is an obsession with the minutiae the details the arguments the theology and all of that because my approach was one of trust trusting son of a loving Heavenly Father where I said well I know you've given us the means to salvation and a clearer communication of the essential saving truths so just guide me and I'm going to use my free will in my reason to test the teachings of Judaism Christianity and Islam and I was guided very very quickly into the church so it seems like I've had a smoother entry into what I take to be the one true religion whereas you seem to be floundering a little bit and very focused and obsessed with a lot of theological questions that have not been resolved in which ultimately you had just admitted come down to your private judgment your gut how you feel because you have a relationship with God two very different approaches to religion and public worship can you just talk about why that might be the case that you're on such a different experience oval track well okay so for me I was very anxious as you know I was going through all this turmoil of where am I out I'm listening to all these different men all these different theologies all these different you know systematic theology and all this stuff and my head was spinning and then listening to the atheists atheistic theology alcohol for the the Church of the Church of the first atheist I was listening to them much listened to them but you know what what I was lacking was that knowing of God in and and I was I was struggling you were with me and you and you helped me my dear brother you helped me a lot Puran helped me a lot of people have helped me even my dear brother Nick when we had our talks and we were talking about my doubts and stuff even all that stuff God was using all of those things lead me to that place where I was up in that mountain crying like a madman saying where are you if you're here I have to know please let me just have you anything else you know to bring me to that point of other as unrest and in my dish and my dad is this all fake am I going to hell is there even is that that horrible deconstruction of my whole worldview and everything to get me to the point where it's on my face crying out to God saying I'll go anywhere you want I'll do anything say you know just just show me something show me you're here not show me like show me the money type of thing but let me know whatever and he did and he showed up so now I'm at rest with all that you put all of those doubts and that anxiety to rest I'm not worried about it the way that I was because now I know I trust him with me I trust him that he's gonna lead and guide me where I need to be so I don't have that anxiety anymore because I know him I don't just have this idea or this philosophy that I'm trying to clutch onto that kind of to get that security like with what you say like you have all the answers met great cool I'm being more uncomfortable now with uncertainty because I think that God he leaves us in that place for whatever reason because that's where faith comes in we don't have all the dots crop you know are the dots connected for us there is a lot of ambiguous things that it could be this way or that way and I think that in the true spirit of God in Christ it's like you say the the having charity and unity and all those things in these different opinions but once you know him none of the other stuff really matters you know I I put all my stock into going to men and having them tell me who God is and how to worship and how to love them and that's when it got into subjectivity and the confusion and this guy says this thing and this guy says the other thing which which just was destroying me inside now and twisted me up in knots but now it's like I I don't really care about all that I'm not anxious anymore it's put to rest I feel I feel secure in but you know I'm still willing to be corrected and it's shown like if if he shows me hey you stupid idiot it's been Catholicism all along you go join the church I'll sign up right then I will I'll run and I'll say sorry to everybody publicly I'm an idiot I'll do it I don't care I really will I seriously or if he says hey guess what it's Mormonism go do it I'll be a fool and go be a Mormon if he tells me that's what it is you know but I just think that those camps and all of those man-made institutions and divisive doctrines that don't do it bring true Catholicism which is a universal oneness of faith unity of mind it's like and I don't I don't need any of that stuff I just yeah I want to just mention a little fun experiment here like let's say that I'm right and you're wrong and Satan and his demons have fooled you into depriving yourself of the fullness of the Christian truth so you're not availing yourself properly of the Catholic life which is prayer and the sacraments according to the mind of the church according to the mind of Christ you got an impoverished form of Christianity I'm not saying this to be hurt I'm just saying as a thought it's all right as a thought experiment pretend that I'm right and you're wrong and then let's flip the tables and say let's say that you're right and I'm wrong and Satan has fooled me into joining this church that has all sorts of manmade rules man-made doctrines and all that sort of thing so I'm availing myself of blasphemous sacraments like I'm worshipping literally a piece of bread and a cup of wine okay so which of those two roots do you think is more likely that Satan and his demons are fooling me or Satan and as demons are fooling you if you had to choose between those between this sort of forced dichotomy which do you think is more likely to be the case man that's a hard no man well what I would want to say but you forced me into one or either or and I will answer the either-or because I hate it when people dodge questions and thought experiment because they don't like what it sounds like you know but the demons are lasting when we're divided and I'm calling you I'm calling you a heretic you're calling me a heretic and we we don't share the love of Jesus Christ and the love that God has for us together to prove that we're Jesus Christ's disciples because I believe that the essential saving faith is just faith and repentance in Christ that very basic mere cursed in it Christianity types of things so I think that if that was the bond that held us together then that the devil and his demons you know get a little slap on the heinie and they're gonna run away and they're gonna hate it that we can still sing Kumbaya together and have a good time in love on I've a Christus Rex makes a good point about it is a to make most buttons are you still there sorry you were breaking up a bit so I started talking sorry about that oh sorry man yeah Ave Christus Rex just made an interesting comment about Jesus when he said do it they say not what they do when he was referring to the seed of Moses who has god-given Authority can you just comment on that that's I think it's an important point to remember one we have to think about this idea of submission to a church right yeah so you didn't hear any of that stuff I was just saying yeah I heard all of it right till I started speaking over you oh okay that's gonna say if you didn't hear it then I just totally would have proved my point that would have been the argument that would ascent you know you have been on my side after that but since we lost they will never know okay the seat of Moses no I love that that's very compelling but he was talking to the Jews about Jewish things in their Jewish history if you know about that the seat of Moses he was he was talking about that that corrupted system of the Old Covenant Judaism which had just turned into utter idolatry by the time that their Messiah came toward they rejected Jesus because they didn't even understand the day of their visitation like Christ said and Christ warned them and said if they didn't repent and he was going to he's gonna come in judgment that's what he's talking about in Matthew 24 I believe come in judgment and wipe all you guys out and that's exactly what happened so I don't think that that applies to me anymore because I'm a new covenant Christian I'm in the New Covenant and Christ's blood which Judas when Judas killed himself do you admit that much and what do you think the significance and the implications of that are for the apostolic succession oh no that's a good one yeah yep they rolled the dice and they had two guys than mine and they picked two Matthias or the other dude yeah I think it was Matthias yeah yeah yeah they replaced him and we don't hear anything else about it right yeah well we have have you read the writings of the early church fathers from the first century second century third century fourth century to century sixth century seventh century how much time do you think I've ever had yeah and those guys were boring to some of these guys I read Origen you know he cut off his balls right I mean I don't want to you know it's interesting stuff but no I haven't read all of them but I read yeren a.s who was the first one the first guy that wrote that first century guy was that your næss the first century we'll the apostles were in the 1st century no I mean as far as non apostle writings but early church fathers was it Irenaeus was there at least one oh no he's one of the first yeah he's one of the viewers so you deviated from the first century Ignatius that's the one right yeah okay well yes I read his stuff and it sounds very Catholic II but he but he I don't think he said anything about apostolic succession he talks about the bishops and a bishop you know the word bishop means servant like the bishops and the Deacons and all that were just servants of the Apostles that like the the people would wait tables and make sure everything was going good so the Apostles could focus on reading the scripture and prayer and all that stuff so I think like the whole big bishop authority funny hat guy I think that came later you know the bishops were were servants right that's what a bishop means am i correct yeah so a bit for a bishop for a guy whose title is servant and then be like I'm in charge of all you fools it means overseer it doesn't make a lot of sense it means overseer one who's overseeing the reason I'm distracted because Nicola just joined us critic Nicola Chris second when I say hi I love you we're gonna be back okay you want to give a so money yeah what up Nicola homeboy that's how many cool people on this in this little community here I mean some nice honest best friends man you know I'm really excited I'm really excited that little Nick stump Houser came back to us I thought he'd like wandered far far away I don't know where he went and I've been worried about him but he's on a serious journey yeah yeah he's on he's he's doing it man any last thoughts just you want to say a little generic prayer that everyone can get behind everyone that's in your version of the church can get behind it's a generic Christian prayer you know no mention of the generic no no no mention of the Assumption of Mary in your prayer just the the basic essential saving truths in your prayer can you could say a little something or a little inspirational final thought it's up to you just we're we're at the one hour mark I want to leave it Lise you can go yeah I know perfect guy we didn't get to get into hell no man I had some killer stuff about Gehenna the word hell doesn't exist anywhere in any of the original languages anywhere and I wanted you to address why you think yeah okay so we're doing that we're doing a held one next time but anyways yeah sure let's both break because I like it when you pray turns the prayers of a righteous man availeth much so am I not going to go very much the fastest ceiling in my truck please come on alright alright so Heavenly Father I just we just all come before you this group of men that you've brought together by your spirit you've brought all these amazing people together that I love and I pray that you would bless each and every one of these guys with just clarity and that we would just seek and find you that we would be able to walk with you to deny ourselves and that you would just give us peace for for those that aren't sure about who you are or where you're at or the church and all that stuff look out that you just you just ran peace on my brothers and in our families that we would be like Jesus and our families and that we'd be that peace we would be your instrument peace and love and and all that Lord got nights just thank you for each and every one of these guys and just I love them saying thank you help us to walk out love every day excellent thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me and we'll definitely do another chat Nicola was saying maybe we could have a three or four-way chat and yeah but until then take care thanks for taking the time to talk to me again and you know I love you you know I'm not bullying you I'm not bullying you too you know because you're not Catholic about but I am excited I'm very very excited about Catholicism the church to have to love it to belong to the church that Christ built 2,000 years ago is so exciting I want that for you I want that for everyone so don't don't take my enthusiasm as a bullying and I love you where you are and just be authentic follow the truth where it leads you and you'll get there and so thanks again for joining me yeah thank you man I love you too and yeah don't ever I don't ever feel bullied man I understand and I and and you know I'm where I'm at so I'm uh I really appreciate you and all of you all you guys really okay well yeah god bless you and have a good one man this is so much fun every time thanks a lot we'll talk soon every time thanks a lot we'll talk soon god bless later brother