so we are live and I've got Matthew Murdock here say hello Matthew hello what's been going on what's on your mind and what do you want to talk about with me today well a lots been going on I just want to shoot the breeze I know that you were interested in talking about my views on Hell so I'd be since I had that went on the encounter which was a men's retreat after almost losing my faith completely as you know I don't know if people listening might know about that but you you helped pull me off the ledge many times since I met you falling into atheism but I had that really drastic life-changing experience by going to that men's retreat experience God encountered him firsthand and came down from that experience a new man growing the fruits of the spirit peace patience gentleness self-control even to the point where my wife actually said I want whatever you have something that she would normally say to me but you know that lasted for the last couple of months but now I'm I'm starting to kind of tank back into the way that I was before which is very unfortunate but I had to be out about that so we can talk about that that's why I'm at sure so yeah it's nice to hear that you had some good experiences with that and you know I've always been a supporter of everything you do because I know your hearts in the right place and you love the Lord and as I've said it many times in our private conversations if you have God I mean what what else do you eat really have God Almighty so figuring out all the rest is a joy and a privilege just to know God and to love God and to serve God that's the main thing and so that's the emphasis that I've always placed with you and I hope that that resonates with you as a Christian absolutely I because I was just reading in John Gospel of John when Jesus said that eternal life is to know God the Father and Jesus Christ whom he sent and that's that's what I want to do is to know him have a real relationship you know I think I just had no intellectual relationship for a long time where I was kind of going through the motions doing Christian things and just felt that emptiness and that's what eventually led to my collapse and that I had that jolt of an experience I know it was a move of God I know it was the Holy Spirit but I also know no I can't ride that emotional high forever and Here I am I'm not doubting God again but I'm just kind of you know I my old nasty self is coming back as with my family and not a loving person that I'm supposed to be as a follower of Jesus Christ which sucks and it's discouraging you know but yeah well it's an opportunity I just see it as an opportunity to be humbled by your own weakness by your own vice by your own limitations and all that sort of thing it's just an opportunity to humble yourself and go before God and say look at me look at what I am and look at what I am without you and without your grace and you gave me a little taste of grace I like it I want more and I'm nothing without it you know I'm I'm a pathetic mess without your grace I mean that's the boat that I mean that's the boat that you're in and that's the boat that every human being that ever lived is in including the Most Blessed Virgin Mary she's nothing without God without God's grace she had the privilege of the unique privilege of prevenient grace that came before she was conceived in the womb of st. Anna and so she she has that privilege that no one else has but without God's grace she's nothing she knows that and so even the greatest of saints is nothing and it's a it's a miserable sinner without the grace of God this is this is why I resonate with the Protestant religion so strongly even though I think that they're wrong to stay away from the fullness of communion with wrong their emphasis on grace is really awe-inspiring and I do get pushback from some of my comments so people don't like that but I think it's very important to realize that we're nothing without God's grace that really is the whole story for me and then like I said finding your way into a closer relationship with Christ and His Church is of the utmost importance to me but you can't do that if you don't acknowledge about the father you need to we need to take baby steps and we are you know we are spiritual babies we're not great Saints all of us and even like I said even those who are great Saints are only great Saints by the grace of God and they were they were just as pathetic as you are you can read lots of examples of Saints who struggled with anger who struggled with impatience who struggled with sensuality selfishness there's no stories that you can draw on for encouragement and so I I don't know what to tell you other than we're all in the same boat Matthew you know yeah it's frustrating because you know just for that brief period of time maybe a month or so I just I felt like I didn't have to like try to be something but I'm not I just was I had the peace I had the patience I had the self-control my thoughts would just for going toward Christ just naturally I didn't have to sit through Mike I better think about I gotta think about Christ I'm gonna focus my mind focus focus you know then I'm just focusing on focusing on Christ but just how it usually goes during the day you know it's just stupid but sad so it's just like you said it was a little taste but to maintain that I don't know how you maintain it but you know everyone's got their ideas but it was just such a real thing and I just I don't know maybe that's what it was like - when you're I don't know thank you fight or whatever maybe that's how the Saints were just blocking every day after they went through whatever they went through I don't know yeah I just seen a live screen here the live chat there was of a Christos Rick's mentioning that he finds it offensive when Catholics say or give credit to Protestants for the emphasis on grace I mean I'm well aware that everything the Protestants have comes from everything good they have comes from Christ in his church his Holy Roman Catholic Church so I'm not I'm not naive to that fact but when you see when you see someone running with one idea with one theme whether it's Bible alone and then you you sort of see that emphasis on the Bible it makes you it draws your attention back to that level Bible even though they're they're wrong to preach this this this notion of Sola Scripture it's it's the flawed notion but it does draw your attention as a Catholic to the Bible like in the treasure that we have in the church and that comes obviously from Christ in his church and the same thing with any anything else that's being emphasized in in the Protestant sects like in Calvin in Calvinism grace is greatly emphasized but they're wrong obviously they're wrong about many things they're just putting emphasis so much emphasis on grace that they're even willing to annihilate free will yeah I agree oh they misuse grace though and it's all all grace and you know I friends that you know will just go on living a completely sinful screwed-up lifestyle and intersect all of grace man it's all faith and I mean it's misused in those circles too and I don't believe that and I'm not a Sola scriptura guy you know all of our talks in my study through Catholic Catholic apologetics I mean I agree with the Catholic set it's not Sola scriptura is not not biblical the Bible doesn't claim Sola scriptura so I don't have to believe that I know that cannot be it but it's funny that you say that the Calvinists but they get wrong but Kat John Calvin said that nothing he ever wrote in his Institutes wasn't spoken by Augustin first like you just basically took all of his ideas from st. Augustine and then ran with it and I don't know so that's kind of funny but you'd say that because I think that but the Protestants especially Calvinists they say that Rome is so evil yet they got everything from a Catholic saint and then even the Catholics most Catholics that I have talked to I think you as well say that they don't agree with Augustine on a lot of things either yeah I mean he's it's just interesting to know that he is called the doctor of grace that's his title that the church has given San Agustin the doctor of grace because he does emphasize grace so if a Protestant wants to turn to st. st. Agustin and sort of twist his words or take their favorite parts of what he's taught and build a religion around that they're free to do that but they're straying from Jesus Christ in the process unfortunately but you know obviously the reason that I love San Agustin so much is that he's a saint and the church has endorsed many of his teachings not all of his teachings and he himself has retracted or corrected or nuanced a lot of his teachings later in life so I mean you can you just because it's a saint doesn't mean everything he says is infallible he submitted to the church and he the reason he is a scientist because he submitted to the church not because he emphasized grace although grace is a good it's a good of the Holy Roman Catholic Church that the Protestants have picked up on just like other other denominations pick up on one or two different key ideas of Catholicism and they emphasize it to the detriment of everything else and we always need to have a balance and we needed a living Magisterium that can resolve conflicts in private judgements and when people want to lean on their own understanding they're gonna run into trouble inevitably it's very unlikely that someone would lean on their own into understanding their own private judgment and come up with a set of dogmas that correspond exactly with those of Christ and His Church right the odds are against that so probably if you're leaning on your own understanding it's probably a dangerous endeavor thank you yeah I do and I agree yes you know I was pretty much on board with all this before but some of the issue that I take with that now is that what I'm reading researching some of the the dogmas of the faith it's really and I know it's it's private reputation on my own but I mean I'm saying if they had to get together and councils and iron these things out like we take a vote these guys say yes these guys say no and like when they were trying to reason out and flesh out the Trinity is that this is it that that's a bunch of men coming together reasoning and like taking a vote there were some people who disagree and some people who agreed like with the Trinity and what the consensus ended up being like they won the day they won the vote so therefore that stamped of the doctrine as a dogma and that's that's for the doxy right yeah but Betsy seems like a bunch of men relying on their own reasoning they were just pulling up the Scriptures and saying no this scripture says that the scripture says that this tradition says that and they were all kind of voting so that seems like human reasoning is the same thing it seems that way yeah and she seems like for the living Magisterium like I'm saying it I would I know this might be stupid but if it were truly led by the Holy Spirit I think that all of these men represent the Magisterium those who are anointed by God to give us incorrect interpretation on faith and dog doctrine you could stick them all in separate rooms but the same question right and they can all write it down look for and put it forward they all come together and read what they had whatever they decided on the issue and should be a hundred percent unanimous or else what you know if there's one dissenting opinion and it's obviously not the hope the same Holy Spirit communicating to all of them you not I mean yeah that's a nice that's a nice that's a nice fantasy but reality is much better reality is a lot Messier and that's not reality I mean we need to look we need to start we need to start with manifest reality what is the reality today I mean I would prefer that Adam and Eve didn't eat the fruit of the tree what they did okay so we need to start with manifest reality manifest reality as we live in a messy world every human is a sinner but by the grace of God I mean God can and did prevenient grace to Blessed Virgin Mary as I said before but even she is a sinner without that without that prevenient grace so we are in a fallen world we are fallen people our intellects are darkened and our will our will is weakened because of the fall and we our God is working with our fallen nature and it's a very complicated and painful process coming back to paradise and it's not as it's not as neat and tidy as you might like it to be but that's reality you need to look at manifest reality and if you look at the world all of the religions of the world all of those claiming to be monotheistic they worship the one true God and if you look at how they operate in terms of infallible declarations of the central saving truths you're not gonna find any organized religion that's living up to your naive fantasy no offense but that's just the way else I agree so because what we have is a bunch of people doing the exact same thing I'd have to take someone's word for it when there's no real way to validate I can't validate I don't because other religions are actually speaking the truth I'd have to take their word for it just like I'd have to take the word of these guys the Magisterium as you say know you know there's no way for me to about verify whether or not it's those guys are just coming up with things using their own private interpretation and taking a vote and saying okay we'll just go with that and a lot of those things it seems like that's exactly what they're doing no but you're you don't like how the sausage is made but I'm telling you the sausage is wholesome and healthy it's wholesome and healthy just away from the your eyes from the sausage factory that disgusts you but basically it's a wholesome and healthy sausage by the grace of God and there's an important point I wanted to make about that yeah if you want to look at if you want to look at why I trust or why you should trust the Catholic Church as opposed to any other group of people claiming to have infallible guidance of God it's because of the four marks right we have a church that is one Holy Catholic and apostolic those are the four marks and if you investigate those four marks and you try to find out do with it do a test find out if any other religion has the a and if you if you want to also you look at the three attributes that this actually helped me a lot looking at the three attributes of authority because given Authority indirect ability and infallibility if you look at those three attributes which religions claim those three attributes which religion today in just limiting it to Christianity which religions today actually claim that they have not strayed from the traditional teachings on family and sexuality which churches can you name any any Christian denomination that is not strayed on contraception other than the Holy Roman Catholic Church if you look at the history of contraception in Christianity you'll see that everyone started straying in the 20th century and before that there were a few a few cases here and there but it's really in the 20th century everyone started stringing everyone except for the Holy Roman Catholic Church I don't think that's a coincidence that's just the four marks and the three attributes shining through and anyone who's sober and who looks at it with a fair and open mind is going to see that only the Holy Roman Catholic Church is maintaining these very very unpopular positions on family intimacy sexuality and these sorts of things okay well I mean I agree with the contraception thing I mean I'm there with you on that I don't know if that's a oh hey that's one example of moment I yeah I mean it seems like I don't know I mean what if you know the Mormons don't believe in the contraception either so does that mean I should look at them they never changed we need to look at all of the traditional teachings of Christianity if we're going to limit ourselves to talking about Christianity that you don't need to know you can start looking at other forms of religion but if you're if you're happy with Christianity and you want to figure out where the true Church of Christ is I I suggest looking at the continuity of doctrine it's very simple yeah and that's cool but it if you do that there have been in the Catholic Church and Catholic tradition there have been developments have been changes over time no no doctrinal changes you could say it's a progressive revelation want but there are things that in the first couple centuries more didn't exist there weren't dogmas they were around as and if you look now at the growing number even you know the virginity the perpetual virginity of Mary didn't come around for what a thousand years or something no no it was it wasn't I'm sorry Immaculate Conception some of yeah some of those dogmas that we hold to now I mean it took a thousand years as I can know to happen and the schism happened and all that stuff that was like a thousand years after the church is going and it seems like they were developing doctrine developing dogma adding more just kind of like how laws just keep increasing like the law books just get bigger and bigger and bigger as time goes by yeah you could have called people you know before those dogmas were there they could have been living in Paris E or something no it's not a heresy if it's not well defined by the church right I mean the Immaculate Conception is a good example many people were opposed to that doctrine until it was codified and formally defined and then if you then once it's defined if you stray from it then you're yeah you're at risk of becoming a heretic if you persist obstinately in your in your in your private judgment but I wanted to just I just wanted to say there's no there's no development there's no there is no revelation after the death of the last apostle revelation is closed and every single dogma it comes from revelation it comes from the deposit the sacred deposit of faith which is sacred tradition and sacred scripture so there is there's no such thing as a new piece of information coming into the body of secret the secret deposit of faith like when we have a Marian apparition for example everything is tested against the scriptures and against tradition and so when at magic gorya this this alleged gospel who's supposed to be the Blessed Virgin Mary says that she is not the dispenser of all graces that goes against tradition so I reject I reject that and I'm free to reject it until the church says it's authentic and even when the church if the church were to say that magic Oriya is an authentic apparition it just means it's worthy of belief it's not contrary to belief to believe in it but I'm still free to reject it because it's a private revelation it doesn't come from the sacred deposit of faith which closed with the death of Saint John the Apostle so I really want to emphasize with you it's very important to understand that revelation is not ongoing the the public revelation is closed and every dogma comes from the public revelation never from a private revelation never from a Joseph Smith with a new piece of information never ever ever ever ever and if if it were not a constant tradition of the church that the Blessed Virgin Mary was conceived without original sin it would never have been defined by the church period simple as that so you're saying that a Saints in the second century would have been able to tell you yeah we this has been passed down from the Apostles that Mary was immaculately conceived and that she was assumed into heaven bodily they would have been able to tell you that he key players knew it key players among the Apostle among the Apostles how is that transmitted is it transmitted perfectly is it transmitted in a way where everyone is well aware of everything in the sacred deposit of faith that was handed down every Christian is always aware of everything in the sacredness house I faith you know of course not Peter and Paul well select there are select people that definitely knew because it's it's it's the Apostolic Faith which means that the Apostles knew right some of the Apostles knew every doctrine and every Dogma that we come up with the church in the church that we that we define that we discover in the sacred deposit of faith because that's what it is it's a discovery it's not it's not an invention it's a discovery every dogma that we discover was known by one or more of the Apostles and all of the dogmas are known by Jesus Christ and by all the members of the Holy Trinity right it's like they say these are eternal unchanging truths that we are discovering and defining and it doesn't mean that the majority of people the majority of Christians knew consciously all of the content of the sacred deposit of faith that would be completely absurd even in the case of the Trinity like you said there are people that were confused about the nature of God and Christology and all these sorts of things but there is a seed in the sacred deposit of faith there's a seed of that knowledge in the Apostles themselves if you think about on the road to Emmaus if you think about Jesus opening the scriptures to those disciples think about that there's a seed there it's like Socrates said learning all learning is a remembering so Jesus reminds the Apostles oh this is how you read the scripture this is the true meaning this is what was foreshadowed this is what the Messiah is this is what the death and resurrection of the Messiah means it's a remembering it's a calling back to mind were forgetful people even the apostles were frail in their intellect and weak in their will so God had to remind the st. Peter right he said he would deny him and he did deny because he knows the weakness of st. Peter but then he strengthened him with the Holy Spirit so that he could guide and protect the flock I mean this is it's all a very messy loose and messy thing but God's in control and he allows us to be weak and to be frail and to be forgetful and to stray and to fall into Arianism only sorts of things but there will always be that thread of that seed of truth that comes from the sacred deposit of faith that will persist that's the exciting part of salvation history it's not a bored mind we're we're all completely brainwashed in you know blind followers and we all have from a to Zed every single doctrine from the sacred deposit of faith memorized if you're a Christian that's what it means no we're all straying we're all subject to temptation from the demons and from pleasures and we're all subject to confusion and that includes that includes the Apostles so there's going to be a lot of confusion and there to be a lot of opportunity for the Holy Spirit to move Christians individuals select Christians doesn't mean they're better people but just means those were chosen to illuminate some of these truth and to bring this organic growth of our understanding of the fullness of the truth of Jesus Christ to fruition in the Holy Roman Catholic Church that's that's the teaching of the church so you need to see it in that organic way with the cooperation of an all good and a perfect God a perfect God cooperating with a very very flawed and imperfect people that's the exciting part of the salvation history story yeah I love it man there's so much there's so many points I wanted it copy and say wait so let's stick to them the Marian thing okay so it's a growing deal right but you're saying that and and you know I can agree with what you're talking about but so go with the Marian things when were those nailed down around what time they're before up to the marriage when was that an official 1950 1950 the Assumption yeah okay all right so you're saying that that dogma that doctrine has it's traced back to there's no private revelation come I didn't come up with it so that little bit of history that bit of truth was passed down from the apostles almost 2,000 years for it to show up and where where is the document edition did they find did they go and dig something up and find on the tablet somewhere that Peter rose somehow how if we have this tradition going back to the Apostles did they have missed something that significant and it wasn't told in the first second century and passed down why did it take almost 2,000 years for this to show up well it's a tradition it's it's a tradition that's always been there but it doesn't you know hasn't always been there because it wasn't there before 1950 no no the tradition the tradition was there the belief was there but it wasn't formally defined and automatized is there any trace of that that you can trace back to of course nice yeah me of course of course it's it's everywhere throughout the history of the church otherwise it wouldn't be defined I can give you I can send you documents and I can I mean if you want if that's the verification that's what I'm saying that's it looks we're this thing pops up after thousand years is that something that's been floating around all that time and finally I came down and said okay we're gonna we're gonna say this is this is right of course and what what caused them to finally come around and say in the case in the case of salvation thing right if I if I reject any of the dogmas I'm in trouble right so they're important and not to make an official dogma so why in the heck would you wait 2,000 years if it's all even there to nail it down like that I don't because it's it's a there's a bottom-up pressure from the lady in the case of the Assumption there was a bottom-up pressure people bishops were coming to the Pope and it was I was correct it was defined in 1950 but people were coming to the public the bishops were coming to the Pope and saying that our priests are being told by the laypeople that they want this to be finally defined because it's a popular devotion it's been it's been celebrated as a cooperative devotion traditionally anyway but there's there's a an outcry from the people from the bottom up that they want to see this formally defined because they love the mother of God and because there's pressure there's pressure from those outside of the Catholic faith and so they want to have the comfort of the definition right so there's pressure that comes from the bottom and then it trickled up to the Pope and he said ex cathedra he defined it I think it's the maybe the second or the third ex cathedra definition of dogma that we have in the history of the Catholic Church as far as I know and he defined it because of the bottom-up pressure to please the people because they were crying out for this for this Dogma to be defined even though it had been a tradition since the beginning and it had been part of the you know the the devotion the popular devotion since the very beginning and it's it's formalized in many different churches of the West and of the East that's another thing you need to look at the treasures of the East were also you know incorporating a lot of these merry and devotions yeah and I think there's a good reason for that the the East and the West both go back a lot further than any Protestant denomination does and they both cling to - these marian devotions right so we need to we need a really patient approach to looking at the dogmas finding out why why it was defined what basis they had to define at what sort of justification did they have what kind of arguments did they have and then you can dismiss all of that because once it's defined none of the arguments are protected infallibly from from error so all of the reasoning all of the argumentation that's all this is completely beside the point once it's been defined and the reasoning and the argumentation all the historical stuff is very very secondary it's the Holy Spirit that allows the church to define dogmatically these these eternal truths and all of the argumentation and the scholarly worship research they're not protected from errors so it's it's an it's a very interesting mindset to have as a Catholic where we've on the one hand we value argumentation scholarship theology and all the sort of archeological findings that support this teaching or that but they are all completely secondary to the movement of the Holy Spirit which allows the church to discover these unchanging truths so when they when it comes time to drop the hammer on that specific thing like that's because to me like no offense but that sounds like politics like the way people are putting pressure on the game he's like okay fine what we'll drop the hammer that but you're saying but it was the Holy Spirit that finally led cause you said it's like the pressure the people I didn't say lead I said alone is a big there's a there's a key distinction between leading and allowing the Holy Spirit allowed the church to define that it didn't lead the it didn't necessarily lead the church to define that it allowed by Church a big distinction but the definition comes from the Holy Spirit right yeah it's called Almighty the church is the mystical body of Jesus Christ who is going incarnate so it was revealed by the Holy Spirit to these guys that whatever time on any of these doc dogmas no no no no no no no no no it was revealed it was revealed before the of Saint John the Apostle and then it was discovered by the church and the Holy Spirit allowed the church to define it because the Holy Spirit protects the church from teaching formerly teaching error concerning faith and morals but it was revealed during the time of public revelation which was before the death of the last apostle that's very clear and you need to emphasize that you need to really clarify that in your mind please yeah because I mean then you kind of be a contradiction because it would be revelation by the Holy Spirit revealing ok you can do this later on yeah because the so the guys prior to 1950 they didn't know whether or not she was oddly assumed or immaculately conceived I mean you could go either way they didn't know didn't have an official stance it was it like if they were given permission like whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven it is it possible to any of these dogmas are wrong that you would still be no standing you'd still be sinning not to follow it because you're just supposed to submit to the power structure no no the Church teaches that these dogmas are contained already they're revealed by God in the secret deposit of faith before the death of the last apostle so that's there's no possibility that it's an arbitrary decision that the church makes and then the Holy Spirit puts a stamp of approval on it and then it's retroactive Lee true that's not the way it works I don't know you know you I'm not trying to be mean it it looks yeah like politics it looks like it's arbitrary it looks like they're kind of making it up as they go along yeah I I'm you know I would be happy if that's oh my god chose to run his church to say look whatever the church decides and put my stamp of approval on it and then it's retroactive Lee true like that's the way history unfolded I would be perfectly nobody innocent I would be perfectly happy if that's the way that God chose to do it but my church teaches me that that's not the way that God chose to do it the way my chief my church teaches me that the way God chose to do it is to reveal all of the saving truths all of the essential saving truths before the death of the last apostle and then the church is unfolding and understanding that and heretics come along and then the church opposes the heresy defines the truth and the Holy Spirit allows them to discover these truths but it's not necessarily leaving them I think the Holy Spirit is leading all men of good will the Holy Spirit is leading all men of good will I think the Holy Spirit is leading us in a certain way but not in this way that you're imagining where the Holy Spirit is saying okay you're the Pope so I'm gonna like show you stuff no I don't think it I don't think it works like that Wow and one question I've been wanting to ask me too when they were ordering like when the whole Protestant thing was going on and they were like burning people at the stake do you when that was coming from the top the Pope's and stuff was that a moral thing for them to do was that was that right for them to teach from the top down that that's how you deal with people with dissenting views as tournaments take or torture them you know where that's not my reading of the his you're talking about I talked about the Inquisition are we talking about well a lot of the the Protestant guys were being who are translating and like young boost you know the who cites those guys like all these little people who sprung up you know when the Catholic Church was in full power and authority a lot of these guys were you know burned at the stake for heresy Martin Luther was they wanted to kill him but they didn't find him do you think that that was a justified thing like should is there the time when the church taught that you know heretics are to be extremely there's no Dogma there's no Dogma about that so it's subject to error you know that's that's a matter of discipline like a hair a heresy is a dangerous thing and in the Old Testament God no he said if anyone tries to lead you after another God you kill him even if he's your best friend or if there's a there's a law that says if someone even your friend or family member tries to lead you to go after another god you're you should be the first one to bring him out to be stoned to death so do you think that the church has that kind of authority why or why not well I mean that the people the people in that in authority in the church in the hierarchy they're free to make mistakes and they're free to all of God's will and to apply God's justice right and that might involve self-defense and that might involve just Wars and that might involve you know a sort of holy righteous anger against Satan and his demons and it might involve at the same time and it might involve making a whole lot of mistakes based on pride and confusion and being led astray by the demons so there's nothing infallible in policies surrounding those sorts of particular details there was nothing enshrined in Dogma because there's nothing in the sacred deposit of faith that could that we could possibly enshrine dogmatically to say kill your enemies right there's nothing there's nothing in the sacred deposit of faith that would justify making that dogma even if someone wanted to if a pope wanted to make that as Alma they couldn't because it's not in the sacred deposit of faith so it's going to be left up to us as fallible men to use our prudence and our you know our discernment and to prayerfully make decisions about how to fight off our enemies and how to turn the other cheek and all those sorts of things is very messy messy situation I'm just very happy and thankful that I don't have any power I have zero power I have zero Authority about zero responsibility and I wouldn't have it any other way because it's a burden and it's to those whom much is given much is expected and what does it say in the Bible about don't become a teacher because more will be required of you what do you ever that oh yeah dad James yeah that you've got it that or you know you'll be a stricter judgment as applied to you thirty other people that's why I always make a point to say what does the church teach because I don't want to teach anything I don't have anything to teach I just point people to the church and if you don't think the Holy Roman Catholic Church is the one true church just send me the website of the one true church and that'll be easily and quickly resolved right but no one no one has ever sent me the website of the one true church that Christ built right it's but I have the URL of the Holy Roman Catholic Church the Holy See and those who oppose the Church of Christ are unable or unwilling to provide any alternative which i think is very very telling but as far as are you gonna get in your car and start driving yeah I have to I have to start rolling good do hands-free and yeah for sure you're gonna be okay oh yeah okay so what about how the eternal torments of Hell can you tell me your perspective on that how what have you been exploring reading and thinking about with respect to help okay well yeah I guess that you had you haven't published your thing yet but Chris day I listen to his debates and I went into this debate it says like the hell debate I went into it thinking like all this heretics gonna get smashed who sang beliefs and basically annihilation or it's called I'd like the phrase conditional immortality but then listening to those debates and the scriptural case that this guy made it was just so airtight I was just I was convinced so basically I believed in conditional immortality which means that because there's some Bible verses that explicitness and it's a principle that I think that I can point out in Scripture over and over again that the gift of God the gift from God is eternal life but the wages of sin is death so I believe that there's the second death everyone's gonna die the first time in the flesh and then there's gonna be a resurrection resurrection of the just now paradise and then the resurrection of the wicked to destruction and when it says second death to death that means two died i immortality is a gift that only comes to the faithful and even if you're alive immortality of the soul you're alive forever even in hell you're still a lie forever so I don't think that the Bible teaches that there are some verses that in order to sound like they support that but I think if you look at like a bunch of these versions and context you see that that the wicked are like chaff that are just burned out generated you know the books are open and it's just a painful execution and it's lights out for God's enemies okay um does this give you comfort that if you do end up in hell it won't be quite as bad as you thought I don't know really well I would rather be annihilated I guess but and yeah be slowly you know tortured to death or whatever like the Dante's version of hell whatever the heck that I mean but a violent execution doesn't sound good either but sure I mean I think I know where you're going with that lecture I think I'd probably pick that over a journal conscious torment for sure but that's not why I'm I've always believed in the traditional view of health the Catholic view of L like some know Chris dates arguments aren't emotional arguments it's all scriptural but of course private interpretation I know but that's that's where I'm at I really think that that's what the Bible is talking about talks about destruction and yeah the the branches in Christ who are gathered up or who are the fruitless branches that are gathered up and thrown into the fire you know it's like all of these images of things are thrown into a fire in Jim yeah I remember now do you remember the image of God as a bush that's burning you remember that yeah with that well is this yeah do you member the bush I don't think that has anything to do well well it's the same fire it's the same fire same fire and how how would you make that algiere or comparison there because there are two fires there's only one there's only one fire yeah it says God is an all-consuming fire I think James says an all-consuming fire now like he'll burn you know either it's consuming love or it's gonna burn you up but go ahead yeah I mean I don't see the connection there well I mean let's just assume for the moment that you're correct and Total Annihilation awaits the the reprobates okay what implications does that have for your Christianity one of the most important implications that that new understanding of Hell has for your your understanding of Jesus Christ and His Church and salvation and everything else that's important for a Christian well hey life I believe journal conscious torment or conditional immortality that makes absolutely no difference in my day-to-day life it doesn't help me be more or less holy you know or want Jesus more but I do think that it's it's a more it's more just now like it gives me a better picture of God cousin kind of weird to think about that God would want to just do that because I mean if you think about it you know if someone heals a loaf of bread cut off his hand let him go that's a huh that's the harsh penalty but I can say okay cool I could live with that or do a jail sentence for a while and they let you out sure no but if you kill somebody cuz your life will be taken away from you so there's different punishments but if a guy kills somebody but do you think it's just I think a firing squad just can't just cut off his head whatever and beat the crap out of them then kill them whatever maybe but just slowly torture that guy to death and keep alive for six years and torture them in a torture chamber would you what do you think that's just that form of it evil torture chamber type of thing that justice it's not something it's not something that God when I was positively God does not positively will that anyone be lost right it's not it's not that glad to be fully in the sky right right but he would be the one that would be torturing the people in the torture chamber for all eternity so he would have a hand in it you know I mean it would be that he would be that guy he is the reality that they are willfully falling away from because of their pride and self-love he is the one reality which they have turned their back on and their suffering as a consequence of that he does not positively will that but he allows that because we have free will he has to be loved freely and he's not going to make a bunch of love robots and he's not going to rape his creatures he's going to ask his creatures and invite his creatures to freely choose with their free will and their reason to return the love that that same love that he shows to them you know and those of us who say yes we'll be learning how to love here below and forever and all for all eternity we'll be getting looks are closer to that love and becoming integrated with that love and being deify it becoming one with that life of the Trinity so the opposite scenario is not complete annihilation the opposite scenario is falling away from everything that's good and just suffering with everything that is a lack of good and the complete absence of love is the greatest torture probably the greatest tortures of hell is that lack of love right it's not it's not that your balls are in a vise yeah so tortured with hot pincers and you're on fire forever just burning I think that's all very figurative language and it is eternal conscious torment it's not bad it's not because it can't be outer darkness and flames at the same time because it's obvious poetic language if yeah they're to be in that state forever but still use the absence of all things that are good right life is a good thing so if you're still alive you're conscious you're aware that's life you're alive a good thing I think that without God you're unmade and it's your right to absence of all goodness all good things and that's very that's life itself is a good thing yeah the first princess yeah the first principle is life and to be falling away from God is to be primarily to be falling away from life and that's why it's referred to as that's why it's referred to as death because you're falling away from life but that fall that fall unfortunately doesn't end it's an ongoing all and that's what's so horrifying about it really well I think so I know like Hellfire preachers and things like this it's effective in a certain way to kind of make you afraid but you've been in your own selfishness you're like oh yeah I don't want to go there so I'm gonna fake it for Tim like I love God and and it's like how you said God God's not gonna force himself upon you but it's like love me or I want you to choose to love me but he's got a gun to your head or worse than that not even a gun to your head cuz that would be annihilation it's like hearts gonna slowly dip you into this this pot of boiling oil and then I'm going to revive you and then just keep on doing that unless you love me that's that's not free choice that's a threat do this or else I'm gonna cute I'm gonna I'm gonna torture you hurt you unless you love me so I think it's more of how I'm seeing it now is you're missing out on that great good thing like he's that he's the best thing with God and to be alive in God and like you said that growing tour that's that's that's amazing ever okay good that you'd be missing out on or don't choose to reject them God's gonna fail clearly projected life unmake you gone don't get that eternal rewards so that is your eternal punishment meaning that it's there's no way back after a certain part you're gone you missed out on the beat that's out on the the joy and the bliss and all of these things that's where like like irresistible grace not like the Calvinist say it's irresistible grace like can't resist God like he's got your arm getting behind your back kind of irresistible but I think of it as like irresistible like you're starving to death for whatever you're within of your life and then someone puts your favorite meal in front of you and it puts a pile of dung on the other side it's like what are you gonna choose no it's are you gonna choose the dung are you gonna choose the delicious food that's the greatest good that's what his kindness and love is so irresistible and draws you in like you're going to walk that you're gonna go for that not like the threatening type of thing I don't know but I could be wrong yeah but Liam would if you were to enter into full communion with Rome would you abandon your conditional immortality doctrine I would have yeah absolutely I mean I becoming a pop community but then I'm going to forget all this other crap and just okay you know if I if I can trust and verify I know that the Imaginarium Basu they say they are and they actually it's not just men getting together making out so the group taking the votes politics this map I can really see that no it I would drop all of my argument yeah you know all my private interpretation I would just I don't know what I would do because and that's all I was asking you about the the heretics being killed it's not just to try and nail you on Catholicism I really wonder about because if if it's true and there's no salvation outside of the Catholic Church then anyone reaching something gonna be close to hell fishing fishing you know should they be killed no no I mean the Protestants did the same thing John Calvin killed a guy who had a person killed because the street robbed reaching against the Trinity burn you know there are burning people at the stake they were doing the exact same thing the Catholics were trying is that just that justifies it so the real thing I don't know but but the church maybe they didn't make a dogma about it but they were definitely supporting that type of behavior for a long time yeah in many cases if you read the history books in many cases it was a question of treason treason it was a government decision to try these people up for treason and all these councils political politics behind that - nailed down so that we can have solidarity in this kingdom that's going to be Christian now so I mean was it that important that these things got nailed down or did politics get in there and just everything and they got away from what they were supposed to be doing which is the true Catholic and Apostolic Church but they know when they win it became the official state religion did they just get corrupted and it's just like that's some people's argument - I don't know I don't know how to know that that it's as you say and the Magisterium is legit and all that stuff legit I would drop everything and follow him I was no questions I was just good and that's why I fired you so much I love it I want to be like you I grew up but I just I don't know you're not helping could be could be pride it could be whatever but I don't think that it is I just I have to be convinced of it know in my heart that that's what it is but when I look at it I just see I see and I see people I see politics I see things that shouldn't be there you know and like it shouldn't be a vote man help I just don't get that like oh kind of been calling sick that day that 100 guys voting so I guess they'd help take it up I want the security of the Magisterium I want all of that stuff I just missed all seems like you said it's very messy and I just don't understand him like you said it was this organic thing but now it's just very rigid and nailed down now we have all these dogmas and you plus this plus that I mean there's no room for growth out I don't know it seems like at first it was an organic thing you could believe different things to be okay like you didn't have to leave and start burying dogmas or you could believe in it we could all fellowship together and four brothers and we love each other but then you nail it down and you're like okay now there's division you guys are heretics we're gonna burn you but a week before they made that decision they could be brothers I just don't understand you know what I mean yeah so yeah so let's let's try to play a little thought experiment let's say that I love it let's say I belong to a false religion and somehow Christianity is true but Catholicism is not the true true church so what am I missing what can you entice me with so that I would leave this safe what I think is the safety of the church to go outside into the wild rain as the floods are approaching what what can you allure me with to leave me out of the safety of Noah's Ark from my perspective what can you lure me out with it's like for example Oh David you can have a lot more fun as a non-athlete Christian because the morality is not as strict on sexuality or whatever like just try to well like if I was trying to decaf like you yeah and make you a Protestant or just just just just saying look David I'm not a Catholic but I'm a Christian and I think that this is the place to be and you're gonna be better off being like me being a non Catholic Christian even though you don't have a specific label for your form of Christianity but you could say David you can have more of x y&z if you join me in my Christianity because in your Catholicism you're limited by all this rigid man-made politics baloney right so what kind of arguments could you make like what could what do you have it better than what I have in the church what do you have outside of the church that I have that I don't have because I'm inside the church it'd be hard like if I was trying to who are you with Pharisee or but you know which I don't think that I would do it no but you don't think you're inheriting I don't think I don't think yeah but I don't think that you have anything that I don't have that's the thing what I would say is you I can have fellowship with anyone who calling on the name of Christ and knows God and I think has a true a true disciple of Christ whether or not you know whether or not they agree on certain the Trinity offered the Trinity that even the Trinity I think I think if someone is confused on that it's a confusing thing I don't think if you asked Peter hey to find the Trinity he'd be like what are you talking about he would have he would have no clue what you're talking about Peter had no idea I guarantee appalled in either you never even talked about and all the stuff he's just like Oh awesome god I mean I don't think any of those guys could have defined it that's why it took a few hundred years from there nail it down and say well what's going on here um but what I what I think I don't think you're miss anything because I believe that you know God I really do think that about you so I wouldn't worry about you man I think that you I think what you found in Catholicism is beautiful how God's doing I love it I love hearing you talk about it I love it blesses me I mean you have real wisdom I think that God coming through that church and I don't think there's anything wrong with it okay um I want to I want to find out what something which I don't think you're right about everything so I would just say I don't have anything wouldn't have because because believe it or not these all these Protestant churches they're just as not all of them I mean of course there's total apostate funds that are saying you can be a homosexual and whatever and whatever you want to be marry your dog and you can lesbian pastor and be an atheist and still be a go in heaven I don't buy any of that stuff but um I mean the Puritan churches that I was going to there they're just as strict they're just as dogmatic they're just as ha based or more so than even though they're all about grace but at you style of dress or this and that you don't believe in five points of Calvinism the predestination blow-up about your hair taking your foot in your worshipping a false god you're going to help some of the hardcore guys that like that so they're just as dogmatic over what they've come up with themselves in their councils done so I wouldn't say that it's free to man you can get away with more I don't think so I mean that's not what I've heard but um I don't know man how but I mean it but if I was I don't know it's hard to hard to say oh let me just put it to you this way I believe that I am within the safety of Noah's Ark do you think that you are safely within Noah's Ark kiss or no yes okay good I hope so and what reasons do you have to believe that reasons I have to hello it's the gospel you don't try citizen phone that we're a disciple of Christ and that's what puts us in the boat I think but does that mean that just because I need some confession of faith at anytime or got baptized and I can empower the hell I want no that's not a disciple of Christ I think if you are a true disciple of Jesus Christ Eve's that he's the son of God because Paul lays it out in the Corinthians 15 this is the gospel Anita says I Christ died and was raised on the third day then did see the father and then he's coming back I believe all that and then it's the way you have to follow the narrow path there on that path you're in that's why that's my security is just the promises that are found in Scripture about those who believes in Christ lays out the way says people if you love one another as I have loved you have eternal life give others have you as you've been forgiven I think withhold forgiveness if you don't follow the narrow path there's a bunch of ifs ditional you know very % of the time in a and every individual it's a very very rosy and optimistic picture do you share that Catholic point of view in terms of salvation being offered to everyone that thinking to write you know but before that it was not so rosy that's one of the changes but I'd say that just came to mind you know before that it was like no not a baptized member of the Catholic Church that knows no hope of salvation and the Second Vatican careless has no they're you know Protestants are separated brethren and stuff before that it was no foreign mathema if you say grace alone you are Anathem who are gone to hell maybe you believe these things but now it's not the same so that's changed man no it really is a change no it's a change in emphasis oh it's only a change in emphasis right because cursed damned to hell yeah there are brothers though but are they still cursing down to hell they're just our brothers who are cursing them down yeah it's an objective it's an objective you need three criteria to commit mortal sin one is grave matter that can never change so it is a damnable sin to be a heretic right but you also need you also need free consent of you will and full knowledge of your intellect so there's three there are three stages to qualifying for mortal sin they have never changed it's just that the emphasis now is on the the ignorance the invincible ignorance of those who by no fault of their own are born into agenda born into a tradition and the culture which is not Catholic which is anti-catholic by no fault of their own they're born and raised in some sort of Westboro Baptist Church and I think that all gays are going to hell and by no fault of their own that's how they're raised and they don't know the Catholic Church they don't know Jesus Christ but a by no fault of their own they are straying from Jesus Christ and that first criteria criterion is their the objective matter is there they are objectively speaking they're a heretic they have straight to Jesus Christ but they don't have the full knowledge and if they had the full knowledge they would still need to give full consent of their will so it's a question of Education it's a question of reminding once again Jesus Christ reminding us with our feeble minds and with our weak memories and our weak wills reminding us of who he is and who is church's and a lot of people are out of touch with that through no fault of their own that the point that was emphasized by Vatican 2 there's no change it's only a change in emphasis with with the challenging times the church is saying look it's not like it's not like the people that are breaking away now are fully educated Catholics like Luther who consciously took moved away these people are born into a tradition which is now hundreds of years old right very different and I'll buy that but that's what's going on that's still I'm screwed that's born into Catholic family that sucks but anyways I do I think that that sounds awesome and just that God would work on an individual basis the guy no the tribesman out in the middle of nowhere he's never heard of the gospel knows nothing of our gods and his worshipping a tree but he's trying to do the right thing and following the light that God has given to all of us that content stuff I sure as hell hope so that that guy's gonna be ok yeah it's like God is a just judge and we trust and then always gonna be good and always gonna do what is just I don't see how anyone can say that it's just that that did you know mr. probable guy and knows in the rain forest somewhere is gonna just be born have no opportunity to hear the gospel like you said invincible ignorance and then just be like thrown into the you know to you just born for fodder for the fires of hell you know no I've heard that stuff and I think that's total that's not just it's not justice counter to so I sure hope that's yes I do agree with that that's why I'm telling you well then we're the same then you know like yeah I wouldn't I wouldn't say a nontrinitarian is going to hell if he's looking at Scripture looking at things the best he can and he's not trying to say I'm gonna be a heretic but he's just like really convinced or he was born in that culture or something like that like he said or as mine just gets twisted up just dumb like me you know I just I just get twisted up in this stuff and I'm really thinking about it and I really want to do what's right but this right so how can I go against my conscience and do it because in the Bible it says if you go against your conscience even if it's not sin what you're doing and you're not sure of it and you do it anyways it's sin for you see that's like a subjective thing so that's tricky and someone like me is dumb I'll just tie myself up for not saying well is it or isn't it and I just back away you know that's why I'm kind of backing off the I'm gonna the steps you know think with the Catholic Church I just don't know I don't know how can I can jump in but I don't know about anything so yeah do you think that God would incarnate and build a church and then promise that it's better that he goes away and sends his Holy Spirit and that that Holy Spirit would lead his church into all truth do you think that that is going to play out in such a way that we do not have access to the essential saving truths or do you think that on the contrary that God has a plan for that where the Holy Spirit leading is church into all truth entails a certain guarantee a certain certitude that we can have that we have found the Church of Christ and that we can join the Church of Christ and that we can obey the Church of Christ and that we can have that security do you which of those two scenarios sounds more likely based on what you read about the Ascension of Jesus Christ into heaven well I absolutely think that we would have to have access to that or I mean we're screwed say - I'm not going to leave you orphans yeah we have the Holy Spirit but that's just the thing no and he said the Holy Spirit would lead truth because you know that's what maybe doubting the Protestant thing in the end with is because if they all have the Holy Spirit nobody who agrees on anything it's supposed to be where's the unity where's this holy where's this apostolic Catholic need reversal truth yeah we'd have to have access to it but that could be interpreted another way name and think that yes of course and what did he say when he ascended he said you know the the Great Commission Matthew 28 or whatever when he says go baptize all nations keep them to observe what I've commanded oh and baptize them until I come back basically him butchering that but you know that was the Great Commission so I'm saying prove that those guys carried out their mission they went and taught people about Christ taught them the words of Christ baptized them and they baptized other people may be baptized other people and it just spread worldwide okay I'm up for a bunch of extra stupid stuff and that doctrines and churches and divisions formed after that but I think that that issue of saving truth no no Jesus crisis and his message and of being obedient to him which is why you know the scriptures are so important they're important they're not Authority I'm not saying it but I mean it was a good good deal that they wrote their stuff down and passed it around so that we can and obey the teacher prize that way I think that job very clear in the Gospels that it's faith and obedience to very simple commands the commands of love Jesus summed up he said this is what I command you they love one another as I have loved you that you be one as the father and I are one you are to be one I'm going to be in the father and I'm going to be you and we're all just this big oneness thing this body Oddie of believers family I think that you can have that family with or without that rigid structure or institutional idea of church like what your but I think I think what you're saying the idea of what a church is as an organization or an institutional thing I think in a familial way I can spread the same way and we're just meeting in houses and breaking bread together and loving on each other I think that that's just that gives me just as much you know like you look and act that's what you see cuz people don't know the people's house and Sharon jeez if they believe oh my gosh holy spirit came baptized and bam there's a church in that guy's house now and they all meet together and not I mean okay let me ask you a question and it's spreading of it okay let me ask you a question you've mentioned during this interview and in other talks we've had that you said I'm tied up in not to get confused about doctrine and I go back and forth and you know you certain you have a certain level of anxiety when it comes to ecclesiology where's the true church and what are the true doctrines and this sort of thing okay I don't have that I have I have peace and I have comfort and I have the reassurance just by just by virtue of the fact of being a Catholic and belonging to the body of Christ I have a lot of peace joy I'm very calm and serene and what I believe I'm not twisted up in knots even with local or sort of contemporary events like when Pope Francis I'm completely calm and tranquil in the face of all that makes sort of all the nonsense people getting frost up over Pope Francis on the right or those on the Left who think he's not left enough whatever I have a tranquility and a peace because I belong to the Church of Christ you don't seem to have that so I want you to address this disparity between our two positions what is what can you explain that we're gonna have to do a party man I just got to the house oh boy here give me a boy get my can I bring my boy sure are you doing nice to see you nice to meet you what's your name haisa very nice to meet you how old are you wow you're a big boy for six he is a big boy yeah how tall are you Matthew I'm about six foot and how old is åsa he is six six foot well how tall how tall about four feet or so Wow big kid man he's a kid in the hypocenter they said ASA who's who do you love who loves you the most oh boom upset baby good answer that's right you believe in Jesus they said yeah Oh rats that's nice that's beautiful man so listen to wrap up I'm gonna just give you the last word if you want to say something or say say the final word or a little prayer whatever comes to mind and we'll wrap up like that okay and I can answer your question really quickly I was tied up in knots or because I was looking to men to be able to tell me what the truth is w