CVS Transcripts

CVS Live Guest - 2021-02-24 - The Lisney Bros.

hello so yes i can hear you we can all hear you and we are i think we're live we should be like now so if you want to say all your funny jokes and i think it might be a good idea to redo that introduction things that was good okay uh you want me to sure go for it go deep all right your brother just said you're here from the meeting do you want to just keep going yeah yeah of course all right uh so i'm kieran lisney and david is my good canadian buddy and i've been on his uh cbs podcast three times and this is uh this is the first time i'm on his podcast as an orthodox christian all previous times it was protestant or searching or you know a catechumen in the orthodox church but now i'm fully uh received into the orthodox church so that's where i'm at now very cool congratulations on that's amazing thanks man what about you aiden i just uh i'm aiden i've been on twice i think uh talked a bunch more times and i only emailed him an opinions when something is off or i need to ask a question and uh that's our whole relationship right david no i mean uh we pray for each other right we do that i tell you that i pray for you but then i forget i thought that's all it was i mean that's that's what i do because i a lot of the time i just tell i just remind uh the blessed virgin that i want you on my implicit daily prayer intentions right because i i don't list every single name they're too many names but you should list mine i should list yours yes i should so uh yeah i do i do mention you by name when you remind me but then the next day i just go back to having the implicit prayer list and there's no disrespect intended it's just uh i don't like having to add names to a list of memorized names and so please don't take it personally and i do whenever i do interact with you anyone i always uh mention them by name that night so i don't know if that's a proper way of managing prayer lists that's how i do it i think that's that's basically how i do it too anyone that's on my mind that they uh gets a special mention so i you know when people reach out to me it does bring them grace of a certain kind little a little booster shot of grace because i get mentioned by name in the prayers and i don't know the way that it i've been reading about prayers and like like seeking out prayers of other people it seems a little bit more generic in that sense because the viewpoint is generally that god's will is for whatever god's will is and so we just pray that god's will be done and so the prayer can take on a more generic sense and like a general well-being can encompass that person which i think is actually kind of nice in a certain way because then i don't have to worry about like any of the particulars i just have to like even if you just have a general idea of a person or a group of people um you know and then like letting the intercessor or letting god just kind of fill in the blanks because it's like i don't know what's good for that person i don't know what's good for me um so you just you just do that and um do you ask explicitly ask for the true and lasting conversion of people that's what i do uh yeah i do things like that but like that's not like my entire you know i don't know i don't know how much of my prayer that makes up you know what i mean in terms of emphasis like if it's like you know uh my friend is sick please give her health and true and lasting conversion i put a lot more emphasis on the true and lasting conversion than on the little sickness and the health like that's a good that's a good thing obviously to wish on someone but it might not be god's will for that person so my emphasis is always on the true and lasting conversion that's cool i don't know if that's what garbage is once again what about your quiet little brother over there what's he think here nevermind just gonna make another game kieran's expense typically i'm not i'm not as good at um praying for people's uh conversion so much if i don't know them okay so like if somebody if if somebody is like an acquaintance or whatever and they have a prayer need and they say oh can you pray for you know my mom she's in the hospital or something like that i'll pray specifically about that but when it comes to like people in my family or my life that are closer to me generally if they say you know i have a specific prayer intention or even if they don't ask me for it and i just pray for them anyhow i'm also praying for their salvation so it's kind of kind of like a you ending i guess but i'm pretty bad at like you know the average person on the street and being like oh i hope they get saved i mean i do but that's not my first thought because i'm super selfish so i'm just like whatever i want to be saved and now if i tell somebody i'm praying for them i try to actually pray for them right right that's one thing i've been doing too and i'll usually usually in that case i'll say i'll just say a quick hail mary or something like that for somebody i'm not saying like that dude i just asked god to smile on me that's all i had oh that's good i mean it works it's it's easy you fulfill the promise and it's prayer doesn't have to be hard yeah just no no yeah and just help them out help them out in that moment yeah do you do your pendants immediately if you go to confession and get a penance do you try to do it as soon as possible yeah usually when i'm walking away feeling light nailed it aiden in the orthodox church they give our father prayers or what do they give for repentances uh so penance is it's um it can be literally anything it could be just like it is in the catholic church almsgiving whatever typical would be like you know say say an extra 100 jesus prayers or something like that or do you know do as add five prostrations to your morning prostrations or something like that so it doesn't i mean i'm sure every priest is different but my my spiritual father is really traditional so typically it will be say more jesus prayers for somebody or pick somebody out and instead of praying for yourself through the jesus prayer insert that person's name along with your own in there say you know uh lord jesus christ have mercy on us rather than or your servant adrian or your servant aiden or something like that so that's a typical penance what about uh indulgences does the orthodox church have any concept like indulgences that we can draw on every time we pray and get the benefit for ourselves or the souls in purgatory or anyone else uh i mean we're we're constantly asked to pray for each other and um but there's no there's no defined doctrine of any type of treasury of merit or anything like that so there wouldn't be like oh saint piecios was really super good in his life so he did so much extra now we can draw from that we would just simply say well saint paulisios pray for me because you're closer to god now so that that i mean there's no there's no there is a difference there's a the one difference that comes to mind is that uh we catholics have to have the conscious intention of gaining an indulgence to gain an indulgence whereas if i just ask a saint to pray for me or for mine it's it's powerful and effective and their grace is involved but i'm not getting that extra boost of the indulgences you see see there is a difference there it's like um uh i don't i don't claim to know how indulgences really play out in the real spiritual world but i like having that little bit of extra icing on the cake and uh i wonder if it's been discussed among orthodox theologians or it's just completely dismissed out of hand um i mean because there's no there's no idea of purgatory in um i mean obviously we could be talking about temporal sins in this life in the catholic setting you know it's not just for purgatorial needs because right now we're in a we're in a in a sense we're in purgation right now we're ridding ourselves of passions but um i think because there's not there's no doctrine of purgatory and orthodoxy that the two kind of go hand in hand so one would expect that there would be a discussion about that if there was in fact um an understanding of of purgatory in the orthodox ethos but there's so excuse me sure come on aiden get your covey did you want to acknowledge openly and publicly what your cough is all about or no yeah no big deal um we get it it's not it's not a real disease guys um yeah you guys should be wearing masks have you seen anyone uh suffer and die from covet in your hospital i down in anybody die but i've been working with people i've worked with somebody who was most likely going to die okay but that patient was moved off my floor but that patient was very sick tons of comorbidities yeah i i don't like working with covid patients they're it's very frightening um very high acuity very sick human beings yeah uh a lot of work it's a lot of work it's very difficult a lot of suffering will you be immune or only to one of the 5 000 strains after you get through this i think i don't know and it's funny because like i was asked to like did you get the vaccination and i'm like no and they're like did they offer it to you yes i just don't you know this is this is the worst that it's been this is like how many days have it been uh one million it was since last wednesday since the last wednesday that i that i technically had it um but i've been chilling man we got hbo max so friends on on you sound boring sounds you sound sicker now than you did like three days ago yeah um i probably am i probably am but i don't it's still not that bad i'd still be going to work if i didn't know i had two of it i'd be like whatever you know like yeah so you trust the test results that you actually do have coveted yeah yeah yeah i don't feel right adam no but i mean you might just have something else and you got a false positive any chance of that i mean there's always chances of that sure does it feel significantly different no can you speak or cantonese no politically no joke sorry what i don't know oh because it came from china i get what you're saying i think it came from that i think it was an import into wuhan from the us that's what i've heard but like i told you before we went live i've been watching a lot of uh right-wing conspiracy theories which are most so is everything you're saying very tongue-in-cheek right now or is it like yeah okay no i don't know about it other than it's you know nice to have some time yes karen who uh so i kind of like laid off the conspiracy after i'd say like the first like eight eight months so like what are we in like month we're in month 11 we're almost at the year or something like that or we are at a year or we had a year yet i don't know anyhow i'd say like eight or nine months in i stopped like probably actually after the election cycle i laid off the conspiracy because it was getting it dude it's inundating the entire family and people are going insane and it's like what you and i were talking about last year this time when you were talking about conspiracy theories and the evil that's behind them in a lot of ways i i've done a little bit more research into finding validity in that in that i think that there actually is um like this whole awakening thing that people are talking about i i actually truly believe that it's a false it's a false light uh awakening that people are thinking that they're being awakened in a lot of ways but it's kind of like a bait and switch i don't know but you're talking about you're talking spiritually like satan are you talking about oh yeah okay but it manifests in the physical so i think that honestly like because i'm i'm not a republican or a democrat i've never voted in my life i will never vote in my entire life and i'm a hundred thousand percent sure that i will never vote no matter who is the candidate because i just put no faith in it whatsoever but if somebody wants to vote that's cool yeah uh people get really passionate about it but it is something super divisive yeah but i think that trump was a useful idiot in a lot of ways and i think that um he was there primarily to sew more division um because a lot of the things that people were you know cheering trump on for um in regards to exposing fake news and and that corruption and in the political sphere all these different socioeconomic spheres that are obviously um corrupted he's pointing these out but at the same time he's pushing agendas like operation warp speed you know the vaccine he's he's pushing all these other agendas that you're like well wait a minute that doesn't make any sense if he's on our side why is he still doing this or also him calling himself the chosen one and israel regards him as as uh ben yosef uh mashiach but ben yosef i mean it's it's crazy dude like i just i don't know i think it's a false awakening that's a guy it's a cool guy uh yeah i think a lot of the because i've been watching so much conspiracy stuff just for entertainment like i watched the most outrageous uh guy i won't mention him because i don't want to sort of draw attention but uh what's his name he believes that snow is a man-made government-made conspiracy theory there's no such thing as snow it's all man-made oh good grief wait like snow as in like the snow that falls from the sky snow yeah like the weather because his rationale is hot air rises so it's impossible for ice to form up higher in the atmosphere and so i mean that's about as deep as his science goes but anyway i just to say that i think a lot of uh i think a lot of conspiracy theorists are simpletons that just uh get that attention from saying outrageous things and i watch him because he's outrageous right so i'm feeding that i guess but i think it's i think a lot of it's demonic uh just like kieran was saying yeah um it works in a very you know uh the serpent is the most subtle of the creatures so he'll insinuate himself into your mind and into your beliefs and then before you know it you've got a really popular conspiracy theory going and once it's once it's going it's kind of hard to be critical of your own uh monstrosity yeah yeah and the the last thing i'll say about it in regards to the serpent being cunning is that most people we see it's it's again it's the left right paradigm right versus left good versus evil and what i see although the democratic party is horrendous in a lot of ways obviously um people tend to think like oh when satan appears when the antichrist appears uh it's going to be in the form of a socialistic dictatorship you know the one world order uh that sort of thing right but if you if you actually think about it in light of as satan disguising himself as an angel of light um it wouldn't be that obvious so what i personally think is that in the eschaton when all of this goes down could be 100 years from now could be a thousand years from now whatever there's going to be a false flag situation like a new world order in which we all are controlled by a dictatorship a global dictatorship and the solution is going to come in and the person who offers the solution to that social dictatorship is actually going to be the man of perdition exactly so that that's kind of my overall thing so like that's like that's all i know broad scope though but most people think like yeah he's just gonna rule with an iron fist and it's like no no it actually says the opposite in scripture it says he's gonna deceive if possible even the very elect so i mean we would know right off the bat if the dude is a dictator like yeah that's not that's not the the the person instead of christ that is that is a total it's going to be the person offering the solution that's really the antichrist and he's supposed to be mortally wounded meaning that there's some sort of self-sacrifice or a heroic uh gesture that's made right in uh getting getting wounded and almost dying or dying or whatever it is yeah yeah exactly i agree with you we need to go a a little bit further than the surface on all these conspiracy theories and they are toxic they are demonic i think and uh i've just been indulging in it because i've been away from the sacraments so much like we're on lockdown here and the churches are all closing and i've uh i've managed now to find a place where i can reserve and i can get the sacraments um that's crazy it's still like that yeah we have a curfew here it's like we because like codewood will get you if you're out too late well it's because they don't want i guess young people going and mixing it up after dark and uh i don't i don't know i mean as if that's gonna as if that's gonna stop young people from going outside after dark yeah and like you could just have your little party and stay up all night i guess i mean nothing could stop me if i were young and wanted to party with my friends nothing could stop me that's for sure but um you know i do have some sympathy for the governments of the world and for my local and provincial government here because no matter what you do you're going to get flack for it i mean if you're too strict not strict enough like no matter what you do if you're if you're too s if you're too consistent or if you change too much like no matter what you do you're going to get harsh criticism so i think you're between a rock and a hard place if you're trying to govern and guide the masses like that's a tough so i want to talk about the orthodox catholic common ground and uh you know this whole thing with uh the hesi caste movement and all that sort of thing because that's what you showed some interest in aiden do you want to sort of you want to sort of pinpoint some of the questions and uh directions you want to talk about with your brother or maybe kieran can say right away kieran you you're knowledgeable um i know so kieran and i um have had a couple of discussions on this um and as of late um a third party was involved named george what's up george and um george's orthodox and um we were chatting about it um has a chasm and i'm like i'm like the more that i pray rosary i'm like oh the rosary is a it's a prayer of the heart and something very similar i think that the same thing is happening i just think the methodology might be tricked i think there might be some differences here and um the more that i come into contact with ezykasm i'm like oh that seems like a really tried and true tried and true path and um very beautiful obviously the name means such but um when i was bringing it up with with george and kieran kieran you didn't specifically express an opinion but george pretty emphatically stated that no catholic theology and orthodox theology they cannot they cannot co-exist and i said well what if it's a problem with language like what if it's just two people using different words for the same kind of phenomenon and then like just bickering over um terminology over terminology and like semantics and he's like no no no like they've they immediately pulled out words that i that i didn't understand and immediately pulled out concepts that i didn't understand and so the first thing they said was that just doesn't jibe with divine simplicity man which like i don't know anything about um other than i know that god is supposed to be simple not complex and they're i think what was being said composite not composite so like when you have an iphone versus holding a an android you feel the iphone and you're like ah simple light beautiful but then it was said you know the essence energy's distinction um is then made and god can't be simple i think divinely simple in those terms if he if he has essence and energies is that kind of the argument kieran no so god is simple um so this is this is a really weighty topic and the reason why i hesitate to speak on it is because i'm not well versed on it either and i don't at this point at this point in my life i don't care to be so well versed on it but so when we're talking about hezekiah basically hezekiah is not just like um like when you tend to think in in catholic terms you think of oh i'm of the franciscan school of thought i'm uh from the carmelite school of thought i'm from the you know whatever um augustinian school of thought the aquinas school of thought so you have all these different either philosophical or maybe theological uh leanings that accent and pinpoint different parts about the catholic faith so it's not to say that any of them are like dialectically opposed to each other it's just to say that the equine in school focuses yeah the emphasis is different whereas in orthodoxy the emphasis is all in hezekiah which is why specifically in the monastic orders you don't see you don't see a differentiation between a monk in russia and a monk on mount athos because it's all one order it's just there's no delineation they're all practicing the prayer of silence they're all practicing hezekiah um the reason why when we talk about god and how what is the nature of god's being this is particularly pertinent because this is how if how how god is or who he is or how he is defined is directly connected to how we have access to him or how we can interact with him so in further looking into what the catholic definition of divine simplicity would be it doesn't seem and david you can correct me if i'm wrong but it doesn't seem to me that there is actually a dogmatic decree on the equinan type of leaning towards absolute divine simplicity or the franciscan like uh you know skodan kind of thought where there is distinction in god but it's a formal distinction it's not a it's not a yeah it's not an actual distinction so yeah i think if it could be a semantical thing yeah from what i understand uh we would say that there are actual distinctions in god obviously starting at the basis from uh the trinity their son be good we would see father okay father son holy spirit there's a real distinction between the persons and obviously the essence god is not god the father is not his essence he has the divine essence same thing with the son same thing with the holy spirit they share the the same essence just as you or i would share human nature but our human our human nature doesn't give us our our personhood it doesn't give us our personality doesn't give us our our our specificity basically so like me you and david all share human nature um but let's say for instance uh aiden you're more into cars or something and i'm not into drawing right exactly but you have you have different distinctions we have these we have these different distinctions within us and let's say a lower life form could look at us and say oh i know that there are they have human nature because of the energies that they have because of the activities that they that they possess the activities that they perform i can see from those activities that they share a common human nature so let's take creation for instance we can translate this then to god let's say christ we know created everything right holy spirit shares in creation god the father shares in creation creation is a specific activity or or a nergay which is just the greek word for energy which only god possesses so because christ possesses um an energetic creativity same thing with the holy spirit same thing with god the father this specific energy of creation is not equal to the divine essence but it points to the divine essence does that make sense so like so when we talk about interacting with god there's no way that we can interact with his with his nature with his essence it is through his activities whether they're infinite activities or their finite activities whether they're passive or they're active it's through these things that we interact with god so god's love his glory these would be instances of of infinite activities or passive um passive and could be active activities but something like the incarnation was a specific point in time where that came into the incarnation was not from all eternity to eternity the sonship was but not the incarnation so these are all distinct energies that interplay with each other and when we're talking about prayer over interacting with is the grace of god which would be another energy and the reason why we know that this has to be equal to god on some level is because grace by nature is is uncreated otherwise it doesn't have the ability to save you grace is everything that's given to us and david you talk about this a lot or at least um i think you did how everything is grace you know the things that we are given it's all by god's grace and so this we know um is one of his energies this is what energizes us in the sacraments this is what energizes the host in the sacraments this is what um this is what energizes our prayer life how we interact with him how we commune with him um and this is the uncreated light that hezekiah is always constantly searching for so the ultimate goal in prayer from the orthodox perspective and from the from the catholic perspective whether some catholics know it or not is union with christ through the uncreated light that they saw on mount tabor and christ says in um i think it was in the gospel of john christ says i share the same glory that my father in heaven has from all eternity to eternity and this is the glory that i'm going to share with you so if god has this glory from all eternity to eternity that means it's not finite which means it's it's it's uncreated and if we're going to share in that that also means we're we're participating in that uncreated energy or that uncreated life or that uncreated growth so all that to say basically um david or george and i haven't talked much about this um so he's obviously way more well-versed than i am on it i would simply say that for the uh from the orthodox perspective from what i know of people who have no who have very very surface level understanding of catholic theology and praxis which is really what we're talking about they would look at some of the of the different almost like the cafeteria kind of picking and choosing of whether it's a specific devotion or it's a specific kind of type of prayer or whatever most orthodox i think would look at that and say well that's weird we just have like we're all just trying to do the same thing in the orthodox and at the bottom catholics are doing the same thing but there's um there's such a differentiation between different schools of thought and practice in the catholic church the way i would talk about it is in terms of video games like you can uh today and i think since the beginning of video games development there have been games within games so you can be a character moving around in the world and then you can approach a computer and you know the password you can get in and then you can play games on the computer so it's sort of a meta thing so i think what you're saying and i think the way that i i don't think there's any conflict between the orthodox and catholic positions on uh essence energies and all that sort of thing and uh the uh you know any of the issues that you talked about i i don't think there's any difference between um there's nothing that's been dogmatically fixed by the catholic church that's in contradiction to anything you said yeah i got koba too just kidding but we caught it through the phone what i would say wear your mask what i would say is that the vision that you're painting kieran of the orthodox way is uh reminiscent i guess of the uh the red pill in the matrix where instead of being on your computer playing a game and within the game world you find a computer and you log into that computer and you play a game on that computer which will be the catholic sort of uh very um abstract approaches to theosis what you are emphasizing always and everywhere is take off your virtual reality headset and you're sitting beside jesus right now right here right now right so all of the game all of the games within games are designed by jesus christ to bring us to the point where we can remove the virtual reality headset turn and embrace our lord and savior jesus christ who's true and true man so what you're claiming is that the orthodox just skip all of the games that were designed by jesus to help those of us who are maybe further away from the theosis uh you're saying just to emphasis emphasize this one approach which which lifts the veil right through a series of techniques of what i guess we could call quietism which has been condemned by the catholic church so that might be a sticking point quietism has been condemned by the catholic church very explicitly but qualitiesism is another thing that confuses me david because there's so many like that word has been used for like a lot of different things it's kind of like modernism the more people say quietism and the more people say modernism the more i'm like i don't understand what either of those those two things are well it's an inactivity it's a purposeful inactivity whereby you have a an attitude of complete passivity right that's that's oh no no that's the cross that's the crux of uh of quietism where you're you you relinquish your desire for salvation for example that's that's how extreme quietism is right you think that's that sounds that sounds like centering prayer that that's what i was just gonna say that sounds more like centering prayer to me but no that is completely opposite of hezekiah right um but there might be some concerns among some uh catholics who don't understand orthodoxy to clump them in together you see to me so i'm not saying that orthodox the orthodox approach is quite isn't what i'm saying is there might be some confusion about that and on the surface it might look like that because your orthodox approach from the way you've described it and i've never heard it described that way before even though i know there's a more mystical approach in the orthodox church my wife is orthodox even though she doesn't practice but if you just look at this if you look at the liturgies you can see that the the mystical component and even in the icon iconography and all that um but what i'm saying is that uh my to defend my catholic approach with the game and the game within the game and so on and so forth these sort of nested games within games uh that's been provided by the economy of salvation which is designed and guided by god almighty um i think that we might be tempted if we're orthodox who might be tempted to look down our nose at some of these games within games and to poo poo some of these some of the devotions that are uh quaint and maybe popular devotions that arose in uh peasant culture or something like that whereas god would see all of that as equally valuable and everyone's in a position to be saved everyone gets enough grace to be saved and it's not just for the superstars that are able to lift the veil and remove that uh virtual reality headset so i'm not accusing you personally i'm being a snob no no no no no i'm saying it might be it might be a temptation if you're if you're orthodox if you have a strong ego and if you're prone to vanity and pride it might be a temptation it would certainly be a temptation for me i think that i would i think what i would probably respond to that is um simply that we're all given the same gospel so it doesn't matter if you're it doesn't matter if you're a monk it doesn't matter if you're a lay person or if you're a priest or a bishop or an archbishop or you know in in catholicism it doesn't matter if you're a cardinal or whatever we're all expected to do and sacrifice the same way but that looks differently depending upon the vocation this one person might have so you you better believe that there's not orthodox christians every single one of them walking around saying to jesus prayer 24 7. that far from it um there's plenty of monks that don't even do that um basically the grace that we're given we're called to respond to synergistically so um that's going to look different for different people i think ultimately what what the hesikistic tradition um which really is just the orthodox tradition tries to get down to at bottom is that we want to be in union with christ and um there also is um there's a real hesitation to use um personal imaginations personal images um things that you can cocked in your mind because we know that our hearts are desperately wicked and so if we get taken down that path there's a real chance we could be deluded in a lot of areas so we emphasize having a spiritual father to help guide you into this and to keep you from from from falling into pride into temptation um having a spiritual father you know fasting as as as best you can praying as often and as best you can and at bottom trying to to just love people as best you can whether that be a catholic or a hindu or a buddhist or whoever um orthodoxy to me the reason why it's so beautiful is because it kind of has like a it i i hesitate to say the word dual you know duality to it but when i first looked at orthodoxy i thought to myself boy they don't really they don't really seem to have anything pinned down and then when i you know became started to become catechized i thought wow man they're like really strict on a lot of things like they have a lot of things really pinned down it's just that in orthodoxy there's not so much of a dialectical tension we don't try and evaluate paradigmatic things through dialectics so the western minds that's what i was saying this whole time the western mindset the western mindset is essentially going to say um and i'm not saying you know if you're in the west this is automatically your viewpoint i'm just saying that it's common in western enlightenment thought to oppose things so that's why you have protestants and catholicism and catholics thinking that they're so uh they are diametrically opposed in so many ways but it's because they're they're they're trying to answer a question that doesn't even necessarily need to be asked same thing with with modernists or secularists or or what have you so orthodoxy tries to take a step back and say well is that even the proper question and i guess to some that would look like well that's kind of like high-minded and douchey but um ultimately the emphasis is too is to find salvation and to uh and and to gain union jesus christ so um it's not that we wouldn't it's not that we would automatically write off like for instance the rosary they're they're orthodox that pray the rosary um that you know i don't know if they would pray in the same way that a catholic would but i mean certainly these things are not it's not like uh everything is in a box basically that's that's that tends to be what i see in western christianity is we have to put all these things in their neat little theological boxes um and we need to have it all in a specific place and that's just this is not how it is in the orthodox church that's why when we say prayer of the heart most people equate that with the jesus prayer but the prayer of the heart is that's not a that's not a prayer that's a state you know that's to be en engaged with prayer of the heart can be done through the rosary it can be done through saying god have mercy on on me it could be through going throughout your day and just lifting your thoughts to god constantly as saint augustine says you know when he says that to be in ceaseless prayer is to always want to be in ceaseless prayer that that can be prayer of the heart it's just how much are we devoting to that and i'll be the first to say that even though the jesus prayer is my devotion you know i barely get by on my prayer rule as it is you know with what my father my spiritual father tells me to do because i'm i'm horrible but um yeah i mean but i do i do understand totally what you're saying some people could look at that and be just like you know the the palamites as they're called you know saint gregory palamus they used to call them naval gazers because they couldn't understand why they were always hunching their backs and sitting on stools to pray um but i guess it's just again kind of what aiden said earlier maybe there's some terminology or traditional things that aren't understood because for at this point i mean the west and the east specifically catholics and orthodox we're so similar in so many ways but we've there's such a chasm between us and other areas that it's like well that's stupid the immediate thing to do on either side is to just write the other one off uh which is you know a shame but it is what it is at this point david and the response is going to say some of the time yeah some of the time um what i was gonna say is actually david the cool thing about the prescription that kieran's talking about which you say you can like there's a tendency towards pride and i'm like oh that's probably why i'm attracted to it but um but one of the things is when you get catechized um in the catholic church once you're done you're like okay cool i'm just like so what do you want to confess her now and it's like yeah i guess if you want just come on it's come on sundays and don't not show up because that's that's a mortal sin and make sure you're here those couple extra days and then it's like okay but what else and like you know you're like you know you can read a little bit it's good to do some spirituality every once in a while yeah i'm jealous of the guidance that kieran has i mean i wish i had i've been it's not that i haven't been trying to find a spiritual father a guide it's just the hurt it's hard to find a holy catholic priest right and if you find a holy catholic priest i can guarantee you he's even busier than the unholy ones so right or the less holy ones um but you know i i it was a life-changing thing for me reading the uh filipillia or however you pronounce it and every time i would watch catholic media that's why i stopped watching catholic media was because i just kept thinking okay all your arguments all your presentations all your your uh polemic uh it seemed transparently obvious that this was a deliberate distraction from right examining your own appetites like that just seemed painfully obvious after having read the phila calia it's like why aren't you disciplining yourself why aren't you controlling your appetites and examining yourself why aren't you entering into that uh self-examination i mean that just just turned me off from watching any talking heads talking about religion because it seems like you're wasting time you should be confronting yourself and you're getting control of your appetites well and that's when i was reading some of the desert father's stuff i told kieran this the other day i'm like there's a discrepancy between that christianity um and the christianity of today and i said this looks different than catholicism and um you know what's what's wrong here or when i read saint anthony of the desert and i'm like there's there's something really pure and beautiful about this that seems to be like there's just so much stuff because of the variety in catholicism which i'm not necessarily poo pooing because i think it's really good david like you're saying it reaches out to a lot of people and hits different people where they're where they're at um it's like okay the variety is good but like there's this there's a loss of something there because there's so many variations it makes you go like yeah but what's like what's how do you cut to the chase and so um with hezekiah there's this direct route and it's like well we know that this this works and you should you should do this you should follow this this path here and avoid these things and just um you know go this this route my only um trepidation with some of those old works is that they're all written for monks um that's not my only trepidation but they're all written for monks so then you have to adapt that to like how does the modern married man apply this to their life you know in like a healthy way yeah and also like priests so i have a really smart priest you know um he's great um but he's super western and so if i said to him like hey chief talk to me about this he'd probably be like yeah that's that's a thing i don't really know anything about it and then i'd be like cool that's great you know who does that's like you have to you know you i don't i want there to be some kind of standardizations that i can you can seek that out and you can go and and get that for yourself and um because all cohesiveness seems to i wish i could do that little crying thing that he's doing now it's so cute with the eyes watering and the little broken throat so emotional uh it's very touching yeah but no i just want i want to talk about the connection sort of the bridge between the lisney brothers here i'm the bridge because uh to me it's all about vatican ii the teachings of vatican ii the universal call to holiness the structured uh nature of the hierarchy the economy of salvation the way that god almighty set up his church to serve everybody exactly where they are and the availability of this uh theosis or his hezekiah you call it hezekiah karen yeah it's available to everyone and it's not i i don't feel personally i don't feel like oh i wish i were orthodox so i could practice that no i feel that the church is encouraging me to practice that but it's also encouraging me to recognize my vocation in life which is to be a married man with no children and uh it's a rather unusual situation that i find myself in with my wife because of a particular attitude toward catholic church she was raised greek orthodox has a cultural hate does she cultural hatred does she believe any of the greek orthodox stuff does she like any of it no ah she just thinks it's the best she just i don't want to talk about because she doesn't like my talk about her publisher but she just thinks it's the best and that i should be orthodox not catholic because orthodox is the best and catholic is the worst but does she know anything or does she believe anything no but it's the best so it's a sort of a cultural hatred and a cultural pride which doesn't attract me to it but but the thing is uh i want to emphasize the teachings of vatican 2 because it's what's enabling us as catholics to adapt to the modern world and to see our place in the church and how everything we need you know everything we need to have that deep relationship with jesus christ that's what it's all about that's what vatican 2 talks about and emphasizes and there is a lot to unpack in the catholic church today and you want to talk about politics you want to talk about the hierarchy and the drama within that within that and it's bored with all that though like i'm so sick like i don't pay attention to it i don't pay attention to current events so okay when i'm reading when i'm reading the documents of vatican 2 or listening to an analysis of the documents of vatican ii it's abstract right i mean this is the role this is the role of the bishops this is the role of the priest this is the role of the lay people this is the role of the religious and so it's abstracted from current events current events drive me mad right the only reason i paid attention to current events over the past years because of donald trump and all he's ostensibly done for uh the children in the womb like that was my main reason why i was following donald trump so closely because he seems to have done more for the unborn than any other politician but uh i'm going to go back now to ignoring current events because joe biden the catholic is ramping up abortion already so i'm going to just go back to ignoring current and current events but we have everything in the church do you get bored with certain like things that are flavored explicitly catholic so such as like hope every time you say vatican too a little bit like no i'm not i'm on fire i'm on fire for the papacy and for the second vatican council it's like uh dude the only way is the only way that you can be like that you can just elicit more of a response and this probably says more about me than it does about anything else is if you were to bring up like magicoria or fatima i just simply because yeah and it has nothing to do with the complete demonic influence behind the other one i'll throw that one tell you david um i just because they're so up on catholic culture i just i want to vomit every time i hear about them because i'm just so bored i don't i could like oh did you guys hear about the ladies you messaged your megoria and all i'm thinking is when was the last time you opened your bible open go open your bible and they're like what's the bible you know it's the same people that don't you know like i i don't know i guess i just like a part of me hates right now folk catholicism because it's so like it's coming out of a really bad time and it just um well it's just i mean i'm sure i'm sure you want what's best for these these people that are getting excited about all the wrong things right like they're getting excited about all this stuff i'm sure you won't definitely i'm sure you want what's best for them right yeah it's just it's just like um it's just like seeing the same episode of a television show over and over again eventually you just you you regardless of like the content you're gonna hate it you're gonna just be like i can't i've seen that so many times i can't even i could change it to the next one yeah i'm not exposed to people's enthusiasm for for anything catholic i don't have anyone around me that's enthusiastic about the catholic church i don't have any i don't watch any catholic media that shows people that are excited about the catholic church so i'm completely out of touch with that i'm not i'm not uh i mean i i can understand what you're talking about with right the uh the revulsion or the the disgust that you might feel but i mean you always have to remember to connect that to your own pathetic uh foolishness right and to yeah well acknowledge it yeah i prefaced it with that yeah i just acknowledged that you are proud and that you feel superior to another human being which is not a good idea right as long as you know that yeah but i don't feel superior to those people i just can't stand i just can't stand hearing the words fatima and magicoria literally it's working uh no i definitely do and i do with isolated incidents but i'm double minded so it's something that's always combative it's never something that's just unchecked and like i'm never like like oh this group of people they're dumb i'm like oh this group of people and then i'm like you're cheering for that i'm like you're cheering for them yeah yeah yeah absolutely i just don't i just don't wanna i'm just so tired of like the fact that fatima was the main message of um you know the 20th century in catholicism when it's just like hey you guys remember that and it's like why yeah i do but like can't we talk about something else can we do something else you know because it it seemed to me that the same people that would just go to church every sunday receive communion and were just like joe six-packs those are the same people that i just always associated with like um these popular apparitions and um and our dad our dad is a big lover of magigoria and um uh he um he's not obsessed with it by any means but he's always like he's always you know thought that it was legitimate he's like no a lot of good stuff has come from this and um there's actually this there's this small faction of catholics they're not small anymore that have come out of magicoria um and i won't name them but they have all of these different types of um these different types of devotionals that have sprung from this david and they're even more annoying and so like you have the divine will um uh devotion and and i like aspects of this one but the flame of love devotion and um uh like oh i forget i forget some of the other things that have come out of this but like these things that they're always um ever since i i listened to um jimmy aiken talk about this and like talk about how very similar this phenomenon was to the ufo phenomenon that would occur he basically said there's this formula that like every couple years there'd be a ufo book that would come out and the person would claim that they had some kind of experience that built on the um that built on the uh the experiences of somebody else and um but they have revealed more and somehow in the economy of things they're receiving more than that person then they're going to give you something that you didn't get before and um and the more that i look at these like um certain devotionals and catholicism i'm like that's doing the same thing and jimmy aiken pointed that out as well so you have saint teresa's little way and then you have another saint who came 20 after 20 or 30 years afterwards and hers is called the littlest way and it's like and it's like perhaps it's legitimate i don't want to take a steaming dump on something that could be legitimate but like i'm going to try to use my orthodox method of not visualizing anything ever right now right no i know right steaming dump no but you see you see something like that and i'm like you know i'm always afraid of being tricked and i feel a lot like i'm being tricked here and so you have that with this luisa picareta stuff that's going on now where this woman do you know the saint that she i think she's up for canonization but dude volumes upon volumes of her work has been analyzed where she supposedly received all of these um revelations from god and they're just so excessive they're so excessive and um daniel o'connor he's really he's on fire for the lord he's really cool but um his work with the divine will stuff it just every time i hear it it just screams heresy to me and i can't pinpoint what it is and at first it attracted me um but now the more that i hear about it i'm like this is there's something really wrong here the explicitness the extremeness of this it seems like it's it's adding on to biblical revelation it's almost as like as if it's like yeah here's the gospel but here's the super grace right right and we're going to give it to you and it's like um which like from you look at it and you read it you're like this seems really cool this seems really neat um but like there's just like there's so many holes in in those things that it's just like i don't even want to look at that anymore it's just so irritating because i just feel like i feel like everything is a trap and i just um i feel like inflamed i feel like a big open nerve and so then anytime something like that comes towards me um i just want to like i just want to run from it because i if not i'll vomit with rage and so then like looking back and looking backwards is the only safe thing and so you know you read something um um that's a bit older you read ancient christianity and you're like oh this feels a little bit better because this was back when they didn't have this fringy crap that they had to deal with they were just like trying to convince people that mary was the mother of god because they knew that if you took away um her motherhood then you could take away the divinity of jesus and so it's like yeah i want more of that and i want less of this other stuff with this italian saint who supposedly received a whole bunch of stuff and is you know wearing the biggest crown in heaven next to such and such a person because uh look at all she did and um you know i don't know maybe i'm just bitter but i want to get kieran's thoughts on yeah yeah um i think okay wow um in a nutshell because i do have to wrap it up here in 15 minutes yeah or less so i think this is this is again going back to the desert father thing first when i read the when i read the contemporary saints of the orthodox church there doesn't seem to be such a huge divide between them and the desert fathers or the patristics and except for their speaking out against um heretical or sectarian groups because obviously when the desert fathers were around they were basically just fighting against nominalism which is why they went out into the desert because they realized that christianity was just becoming too much of this uh easy thing there was no cost to it anymore so when i read somebody like saint piecios or elder afram or saint joseph pause that for a second have you heard of any of these david only read through him are they any of them in the uh philocalia no so these would all be contemporaries so they would all be 20th century oh no um so uh so just as for instance one of my favorite saints of the orthodox church is this is a saint by the name of paisios and he is born arsenios and he he uh was born in 1924 and lived until 1994. you mentioned in your last interview with me yeah he is um the more that i read about him the more that i pray to him the more that i have interactions with him the more um the more i start to in the orthodox church we call it the fronima of the church the mindset of the church the whole ethos so our connection just as you guys would have you know the the state's post you know schism you would you would look to a saint like saint teresa of avila or saint francis of assisi and say yes when i when i'm close to them i'm closer to the church of christ from your perspective right you're putting on the mindset of the church when you read these saints which is why it's unchristian to not read the lives not god but from what we say in the orthodox perspective is that we know that we know that we know that grace is within the church we just don't know where else it is so we're not gonna say that grace is definitely in uh this presbyterian church over here we're not gonna say that grace is over in the catholic church we're not gonna say that grace is you know with god forbid well god don't forbid but the jehovah's witness or some other crazy sectarian group i'm sure there's grace working there's grace working all throughout the world but we just know that it's in the orthodox church and we see that captivated from the time of pentecost all the way up into our our modern day saints of the orthodox church and there there are elders alive today who literally their faces shine like the sun just as moses when he came down from sinai and and just this is the that's the orthodox ethos so all that to say um i think what aiden's kind of getting at is that the overarching issue or maybe problematic um part on on on the part of catholic sort of fanaticism would be that there is such a there's such a fixation on this thing here and this thing here and this thing here and you get all these sort of little groups and what i personally see it as and i don't mean it to be offensive but when i personally see a lot of this sort of catholic devotions to be it's very similar to pentecostalism in a lot of ways because it's kind of just like a free-for-all if you will and i can't again pass a judgment and say well there is no benefit coming from that there is no fruit coming from that but at the same time i can look at it and say yeah but it's still dangerous like i personally wouldn't do it and i would advise somebody who i love probably not to get involved with it either like my dad spent 12 years praying the saint bridget prayers so that he would have x amount of time out of purgatory that's like that's kind of autistic like that's like very like that's like very point counting and and it's like that seems like an ad extra to the gospel which is basically just union with christ through christ's salvific work in our working with the grace that he has given just us reaching out and taking hold of the gift that he's giving us that is that is salvation but when you add all these extras on to it they might be true i can't say for certain if they're not you know if they're true or not but i would i would guess that um if it's an addition to the gospel message then it's probably best to stay away from it and that would be the politest way one thing i would say is that um first of all uh in terms of apparitions they're all optional like even the approved ones are optional you don't have to believe them uh and there's nothing contained within those operations that which are approved which contradicts or adds to the gospel so everything there's only one public revelation and it's uh public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle and so uh there's no risk as a catholic if you're a faithful catholic following the teachings of the catholic church there's no risk of going beyond the gospel okay that's number one number two uh we are being guided and directed to what is essential for our salvation but there's so many shiny toys i guess that's one way we way we can put it like oh this devotion that devotion these sorts of things but we are sternly warned by the church to avoid taking on too many devotions or getting distracted by our devotions or completely you know basically what it boils down to is it's very easy to completely miss the point of religion and uh there's a famous catholic saying that religion is for those who lack faith right religion is for those who lack faith so what we the goal is to have faith right the goal is to hey guys uh i am super sorry my wife is having a panic attack right now okay i just got a text message i love both of you very very much i love you too and i love you too buddy well peace out we'll talk to you soon good luck to your wife all right we're praying for her now pray for you buddy i love you guys talk to you very soon thanks for doing this all right thank you guys bye karen peace it something i said no i'm kidding i'm kidding is his wife uh prone to anxiety attacks yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i went through that happening like a late adolescent in my early 20s i went through that for a year it's very very very scary it's not fun i had a i had a i don't know if it was a panic attack or if it was an anxiety attack at work um because i i get i mean um yeah but usually it's um when people say that they have like a panic attack usually they say they feel like they have the sensation like they're going to die i didn't have the sensation that i was going to die but i felt this overwhelming um anxiety for yeah for like i don't know three hours it was it was really gross it was awful it was dude it's so tiring um it's really yeah the job's been tough that day was really gross and um it's uh one of those things i'm like i i don't ever want to feel that again i like i almost left that day i almost bounced out of there they're like what's gonna make you feel better i'm like leaving and never coming back yeah you know but peace peace is so um valuable but i learned that this past year has been rough for me because i haven't had access to the sacraments as much and i lost my peace a couple of times and it's uh i talked to you about that privately and it's not uh it's not good we're so fragile we're so vulnerable to demonic attack too and i know i'm dumb dude i uh i don't i don't want to go back to uh being a plaything of satan and his demons because it's really not fun well aren't you always because i feel like i always am i feel like i'm just like i'm easily roped into it i feel like um you know what i mean and then like like i i even get tricked into like thinking something and i'm like great i just disconnected my soul from the church and it's like you didn't even sing you just thought about sinning yeah you know there's a palpable difference like what i what i went through and i explained it to you and your brother i'm not going to talk about it publicly just sure too embarrassing but what i went through i mean is like i literally am i've opened the gateway to the demons and they're they're playing with me and i have to get to confession as soon as possible and as soon as i got to confession bang i had peace and so i know that i am a disgusting sinner unworthy of salvation but i also know that i'm in the state of grace because i went to confession right and i know that i want to keep going to confession and availing myself of the sacraments especially confession in the eucharist because even though i know that left to my own devices i'll just welcome the demons in again i will right i've proven that even though i know that god still loves me he wants me to be saved he wants me to avail myself of the sacraments in a worthy manner and to avail myself of prayer better and better and this is the focus of my uh catholic way of life and that's why i don't see a big big difference between the glorious way of the orthodox church that your brother was talking about and bragging about and rightly so because it is something that i think is sorely lacking in most christians right but there's not a big distinction between that glorious way and the way that christ is leading us as catholics toward and it really is a very very simple difficult but simple approach that we are called to take with with our faith right and to not get caught up in religion is a very very important uh part of that not getting caught up in religion so you can have that faith you can have that fresh spontaneous love and uh have access to that grace right yeah yeah i concur i it's funny though because you talk about the way you talk about confession is the way that i talk about it um people um i was envious because kieran was talking about communion the other day and george was talking about communion and they were just like basically it's like race just like rains down upon everybody at divine liturgy and i'm like man that's dope um like we got to start talking about mass the same way yeah um but i was thinking like i've um i've i have a real struggle with communion just like concentrating and focusing and treating it the way that i should confession no confession like i feel a physical like there's a physical component to confession that is is immediate and it's like yeah yeah people will be like well that's just psychological and it's like no it's not because like because you know like this i didn't there's i mean there is a psychological component obviously but like if i tell you david like if i list off all the sins that you know i've committed to you and you're like yeah man that feels good there's a sense of camaraderie where we both like talk about like how ugly we are i mean there's something nice about that but like that's not like that it's just not the same thing there's something there's something very viscerally real happening at confession um that i've been blessed with and i feel like you've probably been blessed with feeling too where you walk out of there and you're just like free you know wondering how long it'll take you to to get to you know dirty that's never again never ever again it's but yeah the path the path is um simple but i i convolute um treacherous everything yeah you're over complicating your faith walk i think um and the nice thing about having a brother like kieran is he can really cut to the chase and everything he's emphasizing i think is what you and i and every christian needs to hear right which is don't get distracted don't get distracted don't allow yourself to get distracted just because it's a religious thing that you're distracted by doesn't mean you're not distracted right right i mean look at the jews in the time of jesus were they religious or distracted well both they were distracted by religion right they couldn't see what was right in front of them jesus christ so it's the same thing with us we need to get beyond that uh that shallow and lazy religiosity and get to the hard work of self-discipline and uh self-control fortitude and temperance and i mean it's lent now right so i'm trying to be good i'm trying to be self-disciplined but i mean you know by now that i'm not exactly you're awful i hear like a hero of self-discipline self-control especially when it comes to food so i just dude you and every other person in north america i like to cheat that's one thing i like about lanterns like oh i'm going to cheat a little bit now i'm going to have like i'm going to have what i'm not supposed to have taken you do sundays yeah i do sundays sunday is my cheat day oh because i don't even go in your food yeah yeah yeah um is that a type of thing sunday's a cheat day i don't know there's debate on that some people are like oh we don't do that and a lot of people are like no it's fine sunday's a feast day i don't i don't see what that's an issue i pray that the glorious mysteries on sundays only the rest is historical during that oh really yeah oh that's brutal why that's uh that's too much sorrow it's no not at all it's actually it's cool i mean no i'm terrible dude my uncle mark and i've had lengthy discussions about like how the sorrowful mysteries are the best ones yeah we're just like yeah i love the ones where jesus suffers because he he caused that and it's yeah i mean yeah but at the same time though there's this identification with that we're like it's probably disgusting it'll probably like hey we gotta talk about this at some point my favorite my favorite mystery is is um the crowning of thorns i don't know what it is about the crowning of thorns but the idea of them of a man of sorrows where i'm like i just want to go up to that dude's feet and i want to kiss them and um maybe it's just like metal you know maybe it's just like there's something really like brutal

CVS Live Guest - 2021-09-18 - Alex vs. Kieran

yeah so we're live uh i'm here with alex and kieran how are you guys doing what's up yeah i'm all right nice to have you uh nice to have you guys on here both of you together i don't often do one-on-one uh as the moderator but i'm just going to sit back and let you guys uh discover what topics are most interesting for you to to discuss i'm not going to say anything unless you uh you know specifically call on me so you guys just start talking i think he wanted to talk about textual criticism but you can take the conversation any way you want to go uh kieran you may as well start and uh you just have at it yeah sure um so alex did you want to start with that textual criticism you wanted to start talking about the actual uh historical veracity of scripture or what were you interested in in particular any questions right off the bat that you wanted to kind of probe into um yeah so there's so i mean i guess we should start with textual criticism because that's what this was about originally and then if it goes in another direction we can just follow that um sure so just to be clear so i'm not like even entirely sure what textual criticism is entirely about i tried to do some research last night and this morning um i was just wondering if you would be uh if you would agree with the definition of you know something along the lines of um the discovery and reading of manuscripts and collating the readings in them against other copies of the text correct so it's like it's compare and contrast to see what kind of variants that you would get textual variants um you know so examples of like perhaps a manuscript a full manuscript of matthew dating to like 300 or 400 a.d or something compared to another uh copy of matthew perhaps from a different region in the same time period or maybe an older fragmentation of it something like that and then looking to see if the reliability between the um you know describing of it from one copy to another has been accurate or has been altered in some way and typically from there then you can get into the specifics of whether or not the textual variant that you might see is something that is like astronomical that's going to change the doctrine of that particular text so like a good example which this is a false example i don't know of any major textual variants but let's say that we found it an example in um in um i don't know let's take like matthew what is that humming in the background does anybody else hear that i hear it i don't know what it is oh okay no worries um so let's just say like let's just take the virgin birth or something like that and we would just say uh in one copy of matthew it talks about the virgin birth but instead of saying that it was a virgin in the next copy that you compared it to it actually said young woman that would be a huge textual variant that would cause concern for the textual critic whether they're um christian or none and there's many textual critics who are not christian most a lot of them are atheists actually but that's neither here nor there but it would cause concern for okay well then which one is actually authentic and then you would try and narrow it down from there and a smaller example would be something like what would be known as like a a minor or um you know uh it would be like a minor textual variant so like jesus was baptized in the river jordan and then in another copy you had jesus was baptized in the river it would be something that okay it doesn't say the river jordan in this one maybe they're talking about a different river but ultimately it has nothing to do with the theophany altogether of christ being baptized by john the baptizer and having the descent of the holy spirit coming down upon him with the words this is my son with whom i am well pleased you would still see all the elements there to make up the basic doctrine of the baptism of jesus christ for instance so and then i mean we can talk about specific things like that i'm more interested i guess in the history in the the historicity um you know whether it's like the dating of the gospels who wrote the gospels etc that kind of stuff and i'm sure you're probably i'm sure you're probably more interested in that too just because when you get like textual criticism is very hard and the problem with it in in christianity specifically is the fact that we have such an over abundance of manuscripts that it's very cumbersome to go through all of them with the different languages they were translated into and the thousands upon thousands of different copies that we have to where you have to know how to speak like 10 different languages just to be able to compare and contrast you know a decent amount of the manuscripts themselves so um it gets very technical and there's only there's only a handful of textual critics in the world that are actually competent enough to do um well i guess yeah we can what do you want to start with specifically well did you have any one did you have any one particular point in regards to let's just say the new testament let's just keep it in the realm of the new testament for now did you have any um one issue i know you had mentioned before um i think when talking with david in the first conversation about whether or not the people who have the gospels assigned to their name are actually the ones who penned them yes so that was something i was going to ask you um is that your perspective do you think that um for example do you think luke wrote the gospel of luke and mark wrote the gospel of mark and such yeah yes i do um so this is one we're going to kind of get into the difference between and this is what i said to you before a little bit that we spoke previous to this on private message about what the difference between orthodox and catholic views of authority have to do with the um the protestant view of authority so i'm not familiar how or i'm not i'm not aware of how familiar familiar you are with the distinctives between the different traditions of christianity as a whole but basically in protestantism there's this idea that everything that we get as far as matters of faith and morals come ultimately and infallibly down through the text of holy scripture but someone like david and myself even though we're part of different traditions him as a as a catholic and myself as an eastern orthodox christian we wouldn't find an issue with having another infallible source of authority outside of scripture in fact scripture itself would necessitate that because we have to have people that can infallibly state what scripture is because scripture does not validate itself it doesn't it doesn't have an infallible table of contents to say matthew should be in the book or in the in the bible as a whole nor does it say that matthew wrote the gospel of matthew and this for an orthodox christian which is the the particular tradition um i'll be defending christianity from is actually um not a problem for us whatsoever because the tradition of the church tells us that matthew wrote matthew you can't debunk it as a skeptic as whether whether you're an atheist skeptic or you're a protestant skeptic or you're a hindu it doesn't matter if you have any form of skepticism towards whether or not matthew wrote matthew the only way that you're going to be able to disprove whether or not he wrote it is if you give a super late date for it and most scholars would agree that that's not the case so it leaves a really small small area by which it's possible for matthew to have not written matthew and all uh the consensus as we go further and further down the line of textual criticism and we continue we continue to discover more and more copies and earlier manuscripts we see that it's it's almost um infinitesimally small of a chance that it wouldn't have been written by saint matthew and you could argue well maybe it was somebody who wrote at the same time that matthew was alive but it wasn't matthew himself they just wrote matthew's name on it to give it some form of authority and that could well be the case but there's no way you're going to be able to to prove that emphatically because it's down the annals of history and so we just can't say he did or did not write um can i just ask what date do you think would be like too late for matthew to have written it like probably somewhere between like 80 to 100 a.d that would that would be a really really liberal leaning estimate of when it was written and a more conservative would be somewhere between like the 60s and 80. okay because according to the most reliable source in this this basically gives what it considers to be the current like scholarly dating and why and it puts it at 80 to 90 ce and let me guess does that um does that put it does it talk about the destruction of the temple um that's one of its three yeah okay so what's the presupposition behind the destruction of the temple and the gospel of matthew having to have been written after that happened i don't know i'm not like the expert here well well i mean and um i'm not so the presupposition behind that would be that in order for matthew to have predicted the destruction of the temple um in jerusalem in 70 a.d um the presupposition is well that's impossible people can't predict those sorts of things that's a supernatural occurrence so it's a miracle of sorts and so the the undergirding presupposition behind it is well then it must have been written after 70 a.d and that's one of the top reasons why liberal scholars would give it a later date but if your presupposition is that it's possible for somebody to even guess that the temple were to be destroyed in 70 a.d and they just they just made a really good prediction and guess they didn't even prophesy it or anything like that then uh it's still a possibility that it was written before 70 a.d so that's kind of uh that's a problematic reason for giving it a later date i would i would think but yeah so i know what you mean but i guess um given that we're talking in the realm of history and like no one here was there we i i think if you're talking in the realm of probabilities it seems far more likely to me that it was just written afterwards as opposed to it was written before and he either had some kind of supernatural uh future telling ability or he just made a really good guess uh that that could be but again it still leaves you in the realm of then okay well are you going to rely on because both you and i we're both now in a position where we have to say okay so we're gonna leave it basically up to chance that our position is correct would you would you agree with that um maybe not up maybe up to chances a bit much but i would say while i can't be certain i think um if i started with no presuppositions about like anyone's uh like like if i assumed that the person who wrote it didn't have any kind of supernatural ability um if if i start with that then i think i can reasonably get to with within reasonable doubt i can get to 80 to 90 a.d so so i don't want to i don't want to mischaracterize what you said but you said that if you can start with the assumption that somebody didn't have the ability to predict is that what you said um kind of i guess it's like um because well i start with that assumption only because i'm yet to observe anyone predicting that something that crazy so okay um so the only reason that i bring that forth is to say excuse me for anyone listening i've just talked with you guys beforehand but i have a sinus infection um but the reason why i brought that forth is to say that a negative um presupposition is just a positive for something else so if you would say i don't have the presupposition that somebody can predict something then your presupposition would be that tentatively somebody cannot predict something and again it kind of leaves us at those odds of okay well which is which is plausible which is possible both are plausible both are possible and i would say that if you looked hard enough i'm sure you could find recent examples of somebody predicting something and getting it pretty spot on it would just be a matter of of going and looking for that so it kind of leaves us in a quandary with that i mean there's other things um there's other things that are talked about in the book of matthew i think that um could lend credence to the dating but again it can kind of go both ways like you have um for instance so and this is these are some of my old notes but um in um in other books outside of scripture we have like we have uh what are known as the church fathers who i'm sure you're somewhat familiar with but we have early church fathers their attestation to the um authenticity of the scriptures that are in question my cat's on the table right now sorry if you see her but you have somebody like irenaeus for example talking about the penning of the gospel of matthew being done at the same time that peter and paul were in uh were preaching together and um this would have been sometime in the 60s a.d so again that would fit into the narrative that matthew was written prior to 80 a.d or the destruction of the temple in general so um you have little tidbits like that but again it's kind of just a guessing game i would say that um if you were to go a little bit further you'd have to start to dig into some of the presuppositions behind the interpretation of the data that's actually there you see what i'm saying kind of yeah um i i actually don't know too much about you know like early church fathers and stuff but uh i do kind of search this quickly but um one thing that you said that caught me i wouldn't say off guard but um you said uh something along the lines of a negative presupposition is a positive presupposition of essentially the inverse right like tentatively yes but i i mean i think that that's um i'm not sure if i would count it as a presupposition at all it's more just withholding judgment until something but it's based but it's but it's based off of sensory data is it not i guess um yeah i guess i i mean when i say you said you haven't you said you haven't experienced anybody else uh you haven't witnessed anybody else predict anything so all sense data so far that you've coalesced since you've been alive has not led you to believe that people have predicted anything correct uh well within i mean like we're talking about a very specific prediction here but yes right but i mean that would lean i'm just speaking in generality so you could say like oh kieran predicted that his wife was going to come home and yell at him because uh you know he didn't uh he didn't wash the dishes or something that's a different sort of prediction than saying um a plane is gonna fly into my house in eight days from now or something like that obviously one is inferred from the circumstances around me and another one is seemingly not inferred from anything it's just a flat prediction um so yeah there could be some sort of a difference there but um nonetheless you would essentially say that as far as the extraordinary types of predictions your sense data has not gathered anything that would lend credence to it right yeah okay okay um so i guess i mean it kind of leaves us at a standstill with um with dating um but again and and and i i i don't want to beleaguer the point but we have to talk about um i'm always going to be upfront about what my presuppositions are and my my first one of course is that the trinity exists the triune god exists and that he has a way to communicate to humanity and that way is through his prophets through the scriptures and through his holy church and so if i have one of those three things whether it's a prophet or the scriptures or the church if i have one of those things that's saying something that i can't glean all the knowledge from so in scripture i would say that there's material sufficiency for what's in there though there might not be formal sufficiency for all the things that i need as a christian i would look to one of the other sources then to give me what the um what the formal sufficiency is so if i didn't know that matthew wrote the gospel of matthew which scripture doesn't say that matthew wrote matthew i would look to one of those other presupposed authorities to say matthew wrote matthew in this case the tradition of the church of which scripture is encompassed in scripture is a part of the tradition so for me it's not an issue because i i admit that it's a it's a it's a belief um and i think at some point as a skeptic you can kind of stay in the realm of well we just don't know we just we based off the evidence that could go either way um but you know as a christian you take that leap of faith i suppose and you have certitude as far um that would be like a point of contention this idea that um having faith is like i don't know if good thing is the right word but like i whenever i whenever it comes like making decisions for me especially about like what's true and what's not i try and start with as little as i can and i think sure i think it's possible to start with nothing and to think it's possible okay like so you're like if you start with no pre-pre-subs like no ideas to begin with i think you can build up and possible um i don't think so that wouldn't that that would encompass a blank slate i'm not sure what you mean by a blank slate but um so if if you i mean how old are you i'm 16. okay so even by the time that you have cognitive reasoning you you don't have a blank slate anymore right you're starting to be shaped and formed and this is starting to undergird presuppositions it's starting to form presuppositions within your psyche that you're just not going to be able to get rid of you can change them but you can't be without presuppositions i mean in a pragmatic sense so i don't you don't really forgive me if i'm wrong are you are you actually an atheist or are you just kind of like you're just purely like searching and you lean in that direction um i think i've done my due diligence when it comes to the research of arguments for god and i think i can fairly say that none of them have convinced me okay that's fair enough i'm an atheist in that sense but i wouldn't i probably wouldn't make the claim that there isn't a god that there can't be a god but only that there isn't sufficient reason to believe from that perspective okay um so so you've gone through all these you've gone through arguments you've been pretty uh scrupulous with with going through um and so now you started to form um a world view even albeit a world view that's not completely solid yes um yes okay okay um yeah so what i was saying was is that in a pragmatic sense i don't think it's i don't think that it's possible from a purely materialistic or atheistic standpoint to to actually walk that out so when i say something like well you can't get away from presuppositions it just means that face value what it sounds like because you've already started to garner a thought process and a way of thinking about things that's going to naturally lead you to certain conclusions and so right now your your underlying presupposition would be something along the lines of there's no sufficient reason to believe therefore i withhold belief and i think that you're going to continue to filter things through that worldview and whether you know it or not it's going to come with some presuppositions that you're not going to be able to live out consistently so you said something interesting to me earlier you said that when you know in searching for truth i try to i try to follow what's true and i would simply ask you well why why would you follow something that's true because it sounds like a value judgment um but i don't know where you get an ought from an is if if something is true why is it the case that i should even believe that thing or follow what is true is that is there something um inextricably good about truth um so that's like an an ethical question which is um i do consider different from like factual questions but um i would say that so i'm not sure where i fall on the idea of absolute morality from a secular standpoint i mean i don't get it i don't think you can get absolute morality um but i think if we start with the pre i think uh so on the on the topic of morality yes i do think you do single presupposition um but then beyond that are you apps are you absolutely sure um i don't even know what that question means so so you said that you said that you're not sure if there are absolutes um are you certain are you absolutely sure that you're not sure that there are absolutes yeah okay so there's one there is one thing that i can tell you um i guess there's there's one thing that's absolute then and that's me i like i think therefore i other than that other i think other than that we're talking about the realm of um the physical and not like my psychological state or brain and bad ideas i don't think you can really uh accomplish anything in terms of absolutes well um that's an issue because i'm because i'm talking to alex i'm not talking to myself i hope i'm not i'm pretty sure i'm pretty sure i'm not talking to myself here's the interesting thing people talk a lot about like is anything real and i think i think you can say yes well it depends on how you define reality um if you define reality or something is real as in like if i went away it would still be there i don't know but from a from a functional standpoint i think the best way to define reality is what i experience like i see my wall i can i i think at least i think i'm touching the wall i think well because i can't be sure i you know i think i'm touching the wall so to all intents and purposes it's real it's real to me okay steve my cat i'm sorry my cat is being such a pain in the butt um i don't know if you can see her right now she's super cute but and she just wants attention but she's super annoying um can you say that again alex i'm sorry dude yes i wanted to make sure i wanted to make sure she didn't knock over my phone that's fine um so essentially um people talk a lot about the idea of like isn't real right and yes i would say from a philosophical standpoint where the definition is usually something along the lines of if i went away it would still be there right like it's not just a mental construct so here's a book on my desk if i go upstairs into the next room is it still going to be on my desk because it's still existing on my desk well i have no idea no i'm saying i'm just saying that's that's what you're saying right yeah i'm what i'm saying is like you cannot know that fact it is impossible um but what i can tell you is that from a from a practical standpoint i think a more useful definition of reality is essentially what i experience like i experience the wall it's it's real like that's all i can tell so i might as well use that as a definition and even if i'm a brain and a vet i've i've thought about this and i think i've come to a reasonable conclusion even if i'm a brain in a vat i'm not that brain is not aware of that so it's not like i can make any claims to knowledge about brains and vats outside of this universe i guess my question to that would be more of um an emotional appeal but what what is the point then what is the point of even asking the question am i a brain in a vat if you're a brain um i think because it kind of it just like it just ad infinitum just kind of like reduces to absurdity um maybe um i guess i value truth and i can uh so there's one thing that i value fundamentally and that's um that's basically well-being human well-being well well-being in general well-being of sentient creatures is like the core of my moral philosophy and then i think from there you can derive that um almost as a rule of thumb true things increase well-being and false things decrease well-being okay and then you have to speak but you have to define well and being when you talk about truth and advancing the cause for well-being and then then far from doing that you have to then say well it's well it's a good thing to advance well-being like if you were to say my well-being is making sure that um i i live according to the moral law that i've constructed in my mind and i live a healthy life and i have you know i get married and i have kids and i do all this kind of stuff and i i help my neighbor and that sort of thing um well then the question becomes is that a better option than someone like ted bundy who just wanted to kill a bunch of women for his own well-being but that decreased well-being as a whole but who's to say because the person that is in their own brain in a vat is their own brain in a vat according to them well-being is hurting other people yeah but okay let's let's think about it like this if there was a um if there was a 50 50 odds that you were the only real thing and i think it's reasonable to say that it's 50 50 because we actually can't know um if if there's 50 50 odds that i am the only real person alive and everyone else has a mental construct of my own brain which is in a vat um and i go and i shoot someone right if you think about this from a value perspective there is a 50 50 chance that i have just taken a human life which is in my opinion probably one of the worst things possible in my moral framework and a 50 50 chance that i've done nothing wrong and made myself ever so slightly happier if we were to say that me making myself happier as a value of one and me killing someone is a value of negative a thousand and then you multiply that by the odds of each one happening you come up with a general value judgment of uh what negative 499.5 okay that's too much math for me buddy i would simply say i would disagree with the first premise i wouldn't say that it's a 50 50 chance that you're the only person that exists or that i'm the only person that exists from my perspective i wouldn't say that it's 50 i wouldn't say it's a 90 10 percent chance because that would require all these things that i have um experienced to be a mental construct of my own mind such things that like could you imagine like could you imagine driving in your car and turning on a crappy like pop station and being like oh i'm the cause for that crappy pop station and the terrible music that's there i would never personally write a song with this but here but you don't know but the thing is is that let's say i wrote but then i i wrote mozart's pieces so i'm really i'm brilliant enough to to have written those and constructed those in my mind i would disagree and say that that's out of the realm of uh what i uh what i'm capable of yeah so i sorry were you gonna say something else no i was just gonna say i so i just i just don't think it's a 50 50 chance that i'm the only thing that exists so i i know what you mean when you say like um but i i don't think this is where i think it gets really um difficult and weird almost because the brain that would exist as a physical mental construct in this universe and the brain that would exist in a vat outside the universe wouldn't have to be the same this you as a brain and well okay so the the you if we start with the so you're saying that the con you're saying i i know so you're saying the conscious part of me would not have to be the same as the mind of me that is unconscious or that is the one that is uh producing all of the things that i am experiencing through my consciousness is that what you're saying um the the conscious part of you would only have to be a incredibly small subset of the larger kind of brain behind the universe there's there's no reason why you the conscious part of you has to be as intelligent as mozart as long as the larger idea behind the universe is so so the the brain the conscious part of the brain the conscious brain that i am experiencing um would not have would be a subset you said of the brain outside of the universe yeah well if there is like like god if there was a god like sure but like i don't see why i should believe in that so well well but you just said because my my my kick back to you was i don't have the mental capacity to construct things like mozart's music and yours your rebuttal or your response was well that would be the subset of your consciousness that doesn't have the ability to do that but your brain in a vat outside of the universe is the one that actually constructed it so you're just the subset of that but it's all you right so if that's the possibility then it seems far more likely that the brain that is outside or the mind that is outside of the universe that i am simply a subset of is god because i don't have the capacity to do that you would be saying at the same time that the mind the same mind one that is a subset and one that is the larger cosmology or cosmological part of it are the same brain they're the same mind but they're one has the ability to do something that the other one doesn't and i would simply say that that's unnecessarily dividing parts of that mind that you're advocating for when a far better explanation would just be i am in the image of god the brain or the mind outside of the universe is god i am a subset of that i am a reflection of that and i don't have the same mental capacity that that mind outside of the universe has namely god so i would say that it's more of a likelihood that that would be the case rather than saying that my mind is playing tricks on me and what ostensibly what it would mean is that the divine mind or my mind outside of the universe would be lying to my subsetted mind and keeping abilities away from it um essentially to what to like to trick it into thinking that it's experiencing something it's not actually experiencing um maybe so there's two things here one is like depending on your definition of god a brain and a vat idea as i have proposed it would essentially be um you know because i i do agree that the two minds would need to be necessarily separate um so i guess say god but yes i'm not sure like the thing is like that's also why i don't say that um there can't be a god only that i don't see reason to believe in one in the same way that i say it's possible for me to bring it be a brain in an event but i don't see a reason to believe it like it just it just so happens that um i i set up my definitions of things and my frameworks of the world in a way that regardless of the situation i'm in i still lead to correct conclusions but it wouldn't be correct if it's all based off of your mind though it would just be your mind lying to your other mind well right but i that's still like i when i talk about reality as i said it's only what i experience so it doesn't matter if my mind is lying to me i'm still like when i'm talking about reality i'm still talking about what i experience which is like that is true that's that is the only absolute truth yeah but that that can't be the only absolute truth because the statement that's the only absolute truth would have to be an um i guess no definitely that's what it that's what it would mean you can't say that that would be the only absolute truth because by saying that you're then affirming that there are two absolute truths namely the thing that you're affirming but as far as i can tell this sorry go on go ahead no no go ahead um so i do experience things that's true um okay fine practice okay so i guess but you don't but but you don't know that you don't know i i do know that i do experience things that is like like i don't know if you experience things but i definitely well what is it well what is experience to you if i i you're saying that you experience that you're definitely experiencing something but that again it's just another truth claim you're just you're just you keep pushing the problem back a step you keep stacking things on top of each other that have no anchor or or justifiable reason for why they should be there i have no idea why i experience things but i do like i i think therefore i am and as a logical consequence my experiences are just me thinking things like when i see stuff the light that we see in the air as far as i can tell does not actually exist in the same way that we see things like our brain assigns similar values so then you're not experiencing it because you're not using your you can only use your senses to experience something yes i guess it would depend on our definitions of experience but when i talk about i experience something i mean uh can you look it up well yeah what what is it just look up what experience means let's just see let's just take like the webster dictionary um the oxford languages dictionary has a few different examples i guess the one that we're talking about here would be practical contact with and observation of facts or events and what do you observe things with well so this is the thing right i guess i can't really think of a better word than experience but i don't think i'm necessarily using it in this way so can i just like define it differently and maybe we can try yeah sure yeah so when i talk about experience i mean um it's like i think therefore i am i i think we can i think they're foreign i'm pretty sure we can agree on that uh are you sure that you're thinking if i'm so if i'm thinking something okay there's there's actually four absolute truths three of them are the laws of logic which i think um you have to assume yeah sure um and then i mean i i assume them i know you assume them too but i in and i mean if it's just your brain why would you have to take into account the law of non-contradiction well i have no idea but that's just how it let's put it this way when i experience things and i'll get back to my definition of experience in a second but all of my observations of what i call reality are consistent with the three laws of logic so i i think that's inductive proof of their truth um but inductive reasoning is problem yeah so i have no idea if they're absolutely true everywhere all the time they could actually but i i know like i have actually they are because i've never experienced anything ever to disagree with them but again so it's um this is really yeah define define experience again define experience again outside of the oxford dictionary not not from the oxford dictionary because that's things observed and you observe with your senses we've established that but give your definition of experience again i guess my definition of experience would be kind of yeah with my senses like um this so i'm trying to figure out if you can derive it from i think therefore i am but it's essentially like i think um well i don't think you can but yes i think we can reasonably say using your senses to feel things but your your cognitive state is based off yeah exactly so it's circular it's very so i know i exist and i know yes i do i don't know how but i'm thinking i mean but again it's because you're just you're just attaching a bunch of a bunch of presuppositions into what you are um and what existing is um okay so when i talk about existence i just mean a thing that has properties so like if i think then experience but you are thinking as a property okay but you said you're not sure if something exists if you are devoid of experiencing it so if you um if you left if again using the example of the book if you left your book um do you know for a fact that that book is still existing because you're saying it has properties that's your definition of existing is that it has properties but do you know that it always has those properties does it have the identity over time um it doesn't necessarily have those properties when i turn my back to it but every experience that i've had with the book has in the book has had those properties so it could just be that it is a figment of your imagination and the book doesn't really exist absolutely okay so then you can't be sure that anything exists except myself yes um i would i would again i would just i can't because i can't be a figment of my own imagination because but you're but you're garnering the idea that you exist from your senses which you're unsure if they are actually reliable or not i i think i think we might be using two different definitions of existence maybe i'm not sure like at the same time um but because it's like there's i think therefore i am because i have a property and therefore i exist but then um if i were to talk about so there's like two kinds of existence right there's having properties which i'm sure we can i hope we can agree like that that is a version of existence if something has a property it definitionally exists in some way um okay and then there's like the idea of like reality and existence in the philosophical con concept of like if i turn away is it still there like does it exist okay well what about metaphysical things like what about what about math math does math does math have properties to it that's something i've never thought of before so i might need a second to think but i think it might i think it might also fall under like a different category i'm sure yeah metaphysical category but it would still could be but it would still happen yeah it would still i mean you would you would agree that seven plus seven is going to equal the same thing it's going to equal 14 no matter where you're at right if we define seven and seven and plus equals and fourteen the same at every point yes well seven's not going to equal six at some point is it um if you're defining is getting crazy um i think i well i mean yeah if we're using the definitions of six and seven and plus and equals that we have today like yeah it's never gonna equal that's the law of knowledge okay well from there i mean again i would say that that the justification for believing in the the three laws of logic um in this case the law of non-contradiction would be grounded within a a a triad a theistic uh worldview specifically in the trinity itself um so i'm not arguing for like a generic sort of monotheism here but you said something interesting that led me to um think about the problem of the one and so have you are you familiar with the problem of the one in the many because this kind of gets into uh values of things how things are how things are abstracted and also how things um have identity so are you familiar with with that philosophical concept um i am now after googling it so it's the problem of finding the one thing that lies behind all things that's yeah i mean that's a super simplistic way of stating it but so in this case like you would have in the problem of the one in the many you would have basically what are known as universal abstracts or um concrete particulars so we could take for instance this soda can which is actually a perrier because they're delicious but a perrier can you could say let's just say soda in general you can save that on my desk so okay cool so um coke's better um so you have a particular you have a concrete particular there you have a soda can right or you have soda in general then you have the universal abstract which is soda in general right so you have soda and then you have an individual soda can so you have many and you have one obviously is the easy way of putting it but then you get into the question of kind of a chicken and an egg conundrum because you start to talk about for instance well does the thing that i'm saying is a soda can have identity because of the universal abstract behind it or does the universal abstract have meaning because of the concrete particular that i'm looking at in front of me um you understand what i'm saying what are you guys talking about i'm just like listening it's getting crazy can you um aiden if you're when you're not um speaking can you just mute them because it's it's kind there's a lot of like noise going on in the background i don't know how i'm driving my car i can't do that i think it's the wind this is my brother no there's literally no wind it's literally like the most windless that's did you close your window yeah there's no okay no okay no hey hey hey guys uh google meet is uh forcing us off in five minutes so why don't we just continue this conversation right now but we'll just i'll send you a new link like did you make a new link oh that's what that thing is i'll put it in the chat yeah send the new conversation ending in 10 minutes because i'm useless i'm just like hearing kieran talk and i'm like uh everyone get the chat okay you're the one alex can you still hear me buddy yeah no alex where is the agent i'm kieran's brother and i'm way better than him what's going on um the chat i i i have no idea yeah i'm in my phone hold on a second um i can try and like text it to you i guess um yeah wait can you send it um can you send it via telegram oh i sent it to him by his email i sent it to him by his email you should get the email all right oops sorry that was kieran let me do it to aid wait dude are we doing another here gotcha i'm waiting it's loading hold on golly boys hey oh aidan's in the new one kieran uh is not in the new one yet hold on hold on hold on there we go it's because my phone is going super slow i will be able to chat for long because i got to wake up early again and go back to work and that's where i'm leaving from now so i just you know i just wanted to like hop on yeah what the heck because i love attention and then i wanted to leave so why was that that's how i treat human beings alex i use them for what they can give me and then i i discard them so you sound like a smart young man hold on oh thank you you're welcome you're welcome okay we should all be here is that better yes we're all we're all what were we saying uh we were talking about uh it was the problem of the one in the many and the soda can okay and you asked me a question that i don't really remember i think it was something along the lines of like yes so it's it's getting into the um it's getting into the abstract particulars rather than the concrete particulars so it's basically asking does the soda can that's in front of me as a particular garner its meaning or its um predication on the abstract behind it or does the abstract behind it have meaning from the particular itself so it's the it's it's the the classic chicken and an egg basically so when you say that i'm not sure what you mean so like there is the idea of a soda can right yes the idea of this pepsi max can that i'm holding and but that only what i can tell you is that as far as i could tell that only exists because there is an arrangement of molecules and i look at that and i'm okay but so so again though um the molecules aren't telling you whether or not it's pepsi you don't have the eyes to see if the molecules if the molecular structure of it is pepsi or not and even if you did if you had no idea of what pepsi is because of the abstract universal behind it you would look at that molecular structure and say well what's that i've never seen that before i have no frame um there we go so kieran are you saying are you saying that whatever whatever universally designed uh defines what a can of soda is are you saying that that affects the particular organism you're talking about are you saying are you is the question oh does the individual can make up the concept of can or does the concept of can make up with the can is that what you're trying to say yes essentially that's pretty much exactly what i'm saying and then that gets into the exactly so and you could make that you can make that for anything so like if i were to ask you hey um uh aiden go ahead and imagine a dog for me just imagine a dog you would not be able to imagine that dog in your head without having a formal construction of what a dog looks like in your head right because there are many dogs but they're all different from one another they're all distinct from one another so you have the universal or the one concept of what a dog is and then you have many different examples of dogs but are those things deriving their characteristics or driving their um their their in this case their predication so their their dogness from the universality of what a dog is or is the universality of what a dog is determined by a particulate and the reason why it's a problem is because if you say if you say that while a dog derives its uh the concept of a dog derives its its meaning from um a particular then you're saying that nothing is really related to one another then a dog could be a non-dog a dog could be something completely else because you're just arbitrarily assigning one thing that you see in front of you with what a dog is and if it's a universal if they're if if if the meaning is derived from the universal behind it meaning that we know that a particular dog is a dog because we know what a universal abstract of a dog is then you would have to say that nothing is really distinct from one another so there is no distinction between any dog and the reason why this gets you to trinitarian theology where at least it might not be the only answer but it is one of the best explanations for why you have the problem of the one and the many is because god is both unitive and has real distinction in him as well and so you have these things held within perfect tension of one another so it would make sense to say that the things that flow out of god that god creates have that image that characteristic of the one and the many and you could take it from the genesis type of perspective of man being created in god's image you alex are a human being and i am a human being we share the same nature but we are distinct we are many um and is what our what is what our characteristics as human beings are derived from the concept of what a human being is in the universal abstract or is it the other way around i don't see this as a problem at all and um maybe i'm wrong here and i probably am but we'll see um so as far as i can tell um so first of all i'm going to talk about like experiences and reality here can we just kind of agree that things are real because otherwise i don't think we're going to make like that conversation on what is reality went on for a really we can put yeah we can put that on the back burner sure cool so i i experience things and um as a human over time i uh experience like let's say dogs right dogs i think dogs is a really good example um so i i see a creature right a moving body of molecules and let's say i just decided to call that a dog and i see like a very similar moving body of molecules i can just be like oh like they're close enough so um you experience things your mind then creates i guess you could say like an array of like everything that you've experienced and then it starts to categorize them by like oh like this is a dog because it's got four legs this bait this face structure for a tail but like this is a cat because the face structure is different but they're both under the you know category of animals and the category of animals is like under the category of life like it's just categorizations of molecules in motion yeah but that's not actually answering the question of where those categories come from and whether or not whether or not i mean because you're saying that it comes it's coming from these constructs in your mind but again the the the very real question behind it is then well you yourself are you a multiplicity or are you a unity is what is behind you unitive primarily or is it primarily distinctive particular many i don't know what you mean by um like what is behind me like if you're talking about the laws of the universe i have no idea if there's a unified theory of physics but i can tell you that i am made of a lot of molecules but if we're talking in categories i am one person like it just depends on how like what lens you're viewing it through i can be either you um say that again so i am it entirely depends on what you're asking by what is behind me because what's behind me fundamentally um is atoms electrons neutrons protons you know subatomic particles that build up my body but you might be are those are those are those related to one another i don't know i'm not enough in physics okay but i mean let's just let's just pretend that you are you don't have to get into the to the physics behind it but let's just say that i'm just asking are all are the atoms that comprise you alex are those things related to each other or are they are are they um primarily distinct from one another in particular that's a very very interesting question because um on like they're all atoms but that is in and of itself an arbitrarily defined categorization like we just kind of decide to call certain groups of subatomic particles atoms well the question here is not really the meaning or the or the predication of what constitutes an atom let's just talk about let's just say it's balls of light to the question the question is there a real distinction between them are they really particular or are they really unitive are they if they're if they're yeah like they would be dead they would be different they are particular so if they're if they're particular then that you can't say they're all atoms because they could be something else completely unrelated to it adam if you were to take it take it up into let's take it past the subatomic level or whatever let's just say apples okay if you had an apple in front of you and then you had many apples in front of you the question then becomes are the many apples related to one another can we really say that they're all apples and if you say yes you can say that they're all apples then you're drawing that from a universal unitive or abstract principle and if you say that there is no unitive abstract principle behind what constitutes an apple then you're saying that these things are not related to one another there's no unitive principle behind them and therefore they're particular therefore you've just forgotten what you have any knowledge that you have previously of apples you have to then throw out the window because you're not attaching it to a universal abstract of what constitutes an apple in the first place so when you say universal abstract do you mean shared between all conscious beings i would say no just the i guess if you were to take it down to um like a property level if you were to say something like um okay the thing that makes the apple really appley the appley part of it is the property that constitutes that it's an apple right okay and then you have another one and it has the same thing and so you say okay well then that's an apple too because it's sharing that same appleiness to it the predication is the property with which that thing's hot that thing holds and so therefore you can then say well yes this is an apple too but then it's totally hinged on the universal abstract behind it you see what i'm saying i do i i feel like i've answered that and maybe i'm wrong but it's just like so so there is um a perceived notion of appleiness in things that we see either something is an apple or it's not an apple right yeah yes okay so the definition of apple is arbitrarily defined by humans because because then i could say that this book that my bible is an apple and you would have to say well yeah it could be that's well from your perspective it might be but then we're speaking at how do you uh communicate with anybody will you establish a set of like like that's why i established like my the definitions of reality and existence and um perception that like when we were talking about that whole thought process um like we established those definitions right so that we were making sure that we were all in line yeah but what i'm saying is is that take it out of this context go up to the person on the street and say here's an apple i have for you and they say that's not an apple that's a pumpkin or you just farted in your hand and you tried to give it to me that's not an apple alex come on the it doesn't i'm i'm speaking in in um in generalities here there if if you're if you are def like nobody operates like that like i wouldn't go up to i wouldn't go up to my wife and be like hey here is here's the grocery list um now let me define what a grocery list is to you so that you can go to the grocery store and that we're on the same page there's a universal abstract behind what a grocery list is that my wife just knows okay that's that's a that's a grocery list i guess if i feel like that's more in the realm of linguistics and i have a friend who knows a lot about linguistics and i do not um but i could tell you that language is i mean that's but it coheres it coheres to one another right like it all it all envelops one another so if this part of the web doesn't connect to this part of the web then you obviously have some sort of an issue there so if you're talking about linguistics and you have to say well yeah but in linguistics or are inexplicable or are inexplicably tied to um are are tied to the problem of the one of the many which is tied to absolutes which is tied to the laws of logic which is all these things so you could say yeah i mean that's more of a linguistics thing but they all play into one another that's the problem with with foundationalism as a whole i would say is that you're starting somewhere and you're stacking things and if one thing is wrong the whole thing just crumbles but if you look at it from a coherentist type of view you're seeing that these things have um a real connection with each other not something that's conceived in your mind not something that's just like well we just arbitrarily chose to agree on the definition of what a water bottle is you know there's actually something behind the reality of the water bottle that you and i um you and i agree on on a presuppositional level and i'm saying that in the in the realm of philosophy you can't get away from the problem of the of the one in the many without having a principle that is itself one in many that has a unitive principle behind it but that has real distinctives at the same time um i i disagree because i do think that if you i when this conversation is over i'm gonna go and think about it for like six hours but uh all right cool this is like this is turning this is my head spinning around so we agree this is this is crazy so there is so you i i don't think my answer was wrong necessarily so you said that like basically it becomes impossible to communicate with anyone the moment anyone uses like their own definitions of things um um so there was should i wait for him to finish i don't know dude i have no idea hey david can i don't think he's him i don't think he can either bro i think he's away from his desk and he's just like picking up his voice all right alex listen to me keep speaking i have my bluetooth in but i have to go get a water from upstairs okay cool all right thank you so i hope you can hear me right now i can hear you right now yeah i can hear you great so um my idea is that concepts are they are arbitrarily imposed but there is almost a selection type process with languages where um it becomes beneficial for everyone to start using the same word for the same concepts which means that like like when i am talking about a water bottle right we have concepts of all water because it is pragmatic like it is practical and useful for people to have a shared concept of water is it good to be practical i don't know what you mean by it is evolutionary it is evolutionarily advantageous for someone to know what the other person is talking about when they say there's water over there i'm having a hard time um concentrating right now that's fine can you hear hom let me see i wish we could like yeah okay okay so i i've muted him i'll leave this in the chat i wasn't sure if that was i'm not tech savvy plus i'm on my phone so you probably can't do it for yourself but um so apparently yeah so he can unmute himself when he comes back all right cool so basically we've agreed upon arbitrary definitions for things and because it's uh socially advantageous it's evolutionarily advantageous and it helps us to square things away and get things done that's your that's your that's my explanation for why like everyone talks about the same thing when they talk about water okay look i that's i'm just saying like that's why i don't see any of this as a problem it seems to me that it all arises but the very notion but the very but the very notion of talk and talking is one and is one it goes into the problem of the one in the many does it yeah absolutely if you say the concept of talking and then you say alex is talking to kieran right now that is an abstract uh universal and now it's garnered down to the level of example through a concrete particular i might not even agree what talking is with you yeah you totally might not but that doesn't mean that i'm wrong okay but it still doesn't i don't care if i don't care if you're wrong or right that the the question is justification behind why your position should be held or why that why that is the case in the first place that's the that's the root of the issue is the justification behind it so it might very well be that i disagree with you that talking is when sound comes out of your mouth and it makes different vowels and consonants and it conveys meaning to you and i might be worse off for it but that still you wouldn't have a justification to say well i'm right in saying that talking is when vows and consonants come out through noise in your vocal cords and out to the world to where another human being can now take them in and understand what they mean so you still you still haven't explained how it's possible to garner meaning one way or the other whether you're deriving it from the concrete particular or you're deriving it from the universal what do you mean well what do you mean by like ghana meaning do you mean like um establish categories of things where you can then like give them to get to its very essence of what talking is so the talky the talkiness of talking is the only way that you can put it but to say like um okay so talking has the property of x y and z and then those things are fulfilled therefore i'm talking so now i have the universal um abstract which is all those things i just listed the x y and z and now i have the concrete particular that corresponds to it but you still don't have which one has given which one the meaning and you also don't have the justification for why it is if your version of talking why your concrete particular example of talking is um why that should be trusted by somebody else why that should be accepted wholesale by somebody else because my version of talking is actually um smacking my hands together and whatever noise comes from my hands smacking together that's actually talking okay you would disagree with that there were two questions there so the second one was why should my version or my definition i guess we might be able to say of talking um be used by anybody else right yes okay sorry there was a question before that i just want to write these down so i don't forget oh okay it's cool let me just well it might maybe i'll restate it um i don't remember what i said but i would just say that the reason i'll qualify it by saying that um the reason why i wouldn't have to accept it is because you said it's arbitrary you said that the way that we define things becomes arbitrary and it might be so socially advantageous to do so but that still doesn't give you the reason as to why i should accept it just because something is socially advantageous doesn't mean it's actually the correct or right thing it just means that most people have agreed upon it would you agree with that um yeah but i feel like you're starting with the premise and maybe i'm wrong here but that there has to be a correct or right definition of talking like there's just the definition of talking that most people use there's that there's a definition that basically everyone uses and then that's it well wouldn't you yeah i mean yeah that's all that would affirm i would say yes there's only there's only talking so we disagree the in the in the area of where that meaning for what talking is comes from you're saying it's arbitrary i'm saying it's not i'm saying it's founded in the one and the many and you're saying that well i don't really know about that but i'm just going to say that we've arbitrarily decided that talking is when words come out of your mouth so i think arbitrary might be the wrong word there um because arbitrary kind of implies that there's like no reason for it there's like a flippancy to it yeah yeah so it's like but it doesn't necessarily it doesn't necessarily have to be that you could say things are you could say that the actual word that is being because words are just invented right like we just make words up but we know that we know that there is um we know that there is a universal um behind it right but then we also know that there's a particular so the word itself or the thing that we have that's constructed in our mind so dog dog as a word that doesn't justify or explain away the particular examples of dogs nor does it explain the abstract universal behind it do you understand what i'm saying so even if we didn't have the word dog if we had no vocabulary for dog we didn't know what to call them we every time we saw them we were just like or whatever we just knew but we all had we would still have particular examples of dogs in our mind and we would still know that there's a universal abstract behind it because every time i see that thing that's the thing i don't have a word for oh look at that so so naming the thing uh arbitrarily doesn't get you away from it so the naming is arbitrary purely like it really is like words are just words yeah but the actual particular itself the object of the thing you're naming and then the universal the um the abstract universal behind it are not arbitrary and those things are in tension together because you can't define one without the other you can't define them individually otherwise if you say like i said before if you were to derive something and say well this this concrete particular exists apart from the um from the universal abstract behind it well then you're saying there's no abstraction behind it and you're saying those things could potentially not even be related to one another so this dog is not you know these two dogs are actually not dogs they might not be and if you do the opposite and say well we know what a dog is because the universal abstract is there but it's purely a universal abstract there is no particular concrete with it then you're saying that there's no distinction between my dog do you have a dog i have two they're amazing okay so you're saying that my golden retriever there's no real distinction between my golden retriever over here in the united states between your two dogs over there down under there's no distinction between those things so it still leaves you in the quandary of what is where do those things come from but you can't just describe some sort of um an arbitrary word for it and say well we agree that this is that thing that doesn't in itself say that that thing has those properties just because i said it does right so um imagine so forget the word dog um but we'll be talking about dogs without using the word because we have to so so when i say that i've got two dogs right i'm saying i have two creatures with a certain facial structure four legs for a tail and they can breed okay right well they can't but you know what i mean so are they okay so this is what would be called abstract particulars rather than a concrete particular because now you're bringing up the plurality of the dogs that you have in your home yeah question then so then the question then still is are those things related to each other are those things all things that exist have properties but are they sharing the same are they sharing the same abstract universal because lots of things have four legs and a tail that aren't dogs i mean so i i mean i look this may be a bit out of my depth for philosophy but i would say um there everything that exists has properties right because that's kind of how i do define existence the having of properties like this soda can it has the property of the pepsi max logo and black and it's made of aluminium and stuff so that has the properties associated with soda cans and then if i were to compare it to this empty coffee mug i have way too many things on my desk um so do i so i would say like they share perhaps the property of being able to contain things without things falling out of them so they are so like we categorize things in certain ways as i don't know why so you would say so you would say that they're like they're both containers yeah right so like that might be uh what did you say like an abstract universal yes the idea of containers right yep so i would say we experience a lot of things right um yeah when i'm talking about things i mean like we literally experience a lot of objects in our lives and then our brain is like okay this is a bit much to remember each individual pepsi max can you get let's just remember the logo the color and the what's inside of it and now you know what a pepsi max can is yeah i i i get what you're sa

CVS Live Guest - 2021-10-28 - The Lisney Bros.

hey so we're live i'm here with the lisney brothers how are you guys doing pretty good dave and this is your stream so no it's the lisbon it's the lisney brothers stream oh wow you aidan invited me uh earlier and i was like david doesn't like me he doesn't want me on this again and i was like well he did take some convincing i was like david you want gear and on and he's like ugh i was like come on just for old time's sake it took i guess it took me two seconds to email kieran saying hey we're doing this hey kieran i can't see you i can't see you you can't see me no you all i see is your little avatar now aiden's give me his avatar too it's like you guys are like oh yeah i see aiden i only i mean i always only see your avatar david yeah because my software will only let me do one thing at a time with my camera so uh the good news kieran is uh matthew murdock reached out to me so i sent him a link to this chat yes i hope he comes on i hope so but i don't know i i hear from him very rarely but uh have you guys heard from him no no i'm terrible but i'm also a good friend yeah i'm terrible at reaching out i don't talk to anybody but um to be fair he hasn't reached out to me either so i'm gonna i'm gonna fall back on that one yeah yeah well he did explain to me that so uh your cameras keep popping on and off but that's okay that's weird aidan i've seen you just straight up the whole time right yeah i'm seeing karen i'm seeing karen and i okay the entire entire the entire time now is your actual being gonna be in the in the video are you like um sitting there with your icons and your guitar and stuff or is it just your avatar the live feed folks are seeing oh no no no i they're gonna see my little face down in the bottom right corner uh without too much i cropped it because i thought that i'd be able to squeeze it in better with the guests but so anyway uh aiden i guess i haven't talked to you as much recently so how has been going with your health and uh all that stuff you mean you mean because i had covered twice didn't you yeah um it was fine i was awesome i got time off work and uh you know i got to lay around and watch tv and uh you know i didn't have to work out during that time period too because like i'm sick so it's probably probably not good to move my body and yeah i the first time that i had kovid i lost my sense of taste and smell and that was a real downer because um i didn't even i didn't even take the opportunity to be like well you know what i'm gonna be mindful about the fast now i just like tried to throw the same uh terrible dude down the fat face in hopes that the taste would return and it was just like it didn't work but second time around it was no big deal um it was like a mild headache and uh just like malaise just feeling tired so you know other than that i've been good that's cool and your hospital is it um once you told me i think you told me that they're not too keen on the the job down there is that right still so yeah i got the uh yeah i mean it's one of those things where it's like i'm not personally um i don't feel like morally um over the top about the the way that the vaccination was procured because we're kind of arbitrary about all the medicines that we have like actually so many medications are um produced unethically and i'm like well why are we picking this one to like take a dump on yeah i just don't like being told that i have to do something and actually i'm like did you hesitate did you hesitate yeah yeah and i procrastinate with everything that i do in life so i waited until the last moment um to get it and i got the moderna um it's a two-part series and uh i was kind of hoping that they would forego getting the vaccinations if we were recently sick so i was thinking oh i i was saying i probably have a ridiculous amount of of the virus i probably have like a very high viral as a result of everything so yeah make sure that i breathe directly on patients are you uh are you concerned that you're now subscribed for a lifetime subscription you're gonna have to get boosters the rest of your life or no i not really no i kind of like because um it's very like like everybody likes to stick like the mark of the beast on the whole thing and um but like if it is the mark of the beast then you have to keep getting it and like i won't be in the hospital forever so it's just like well how how long conversation is because like um you know like how many parachutes we all bought or like procured like you know from some how many shoes have we procured from a poor person say that again yeah well i was going to say from a i was going to really go to like china so like yeah production and we don't really care about the the goods that we that we get from other countries that are basically made in sweatshop so why would we um throw our arms up about other things which i i understand i get i get the i get why people are up in arms about it but it's just like like the you know the hot button issue to um to complain about and it just feels kind of arbitrary to me um because most of the vaccine vaccinations that that human beings get are um they're pretty uh pretty sketchy their origins so yeah yeah yeah but for actually karen yeah here we go oh go ahead well kieran brought that a couple years can you hear me again yeah i can hear you again what did i bring up okay kieran you messaged me dad and uncle mark a couple years ago because you were concerned about getting oliver vaccinated with just the regular set of vaccinations and you're right these don't seem very ethical um okay but it was actually a mutual friend of mine tim mining kieran who sent me this uh um i think it was a podcast with this bioethicist who's an orthodox christian and his thoughts on the vaccination and uh it was very interesting i didn't even have to listen to the whole thing i'm like all right sold confirmation bias i don't really want to have to fight and lose my job anyway so bing i'll just uh take it on this guy's word but that's his brutal honesty because it's like i don't know i'm a lukewarm christian well i wasn't i wasn't actually thinking from a christian perspective but just uh in terms of you know um jumping on the compliance train it's going to be a long ride i think but i'm just not going to comply because i i'd rather way worse off than the united states right it's extreme what about kieran what's your take on all that jazz well i i didn't even uh i didn't even reach out to you since the last time well i did but um not since i got sick i got sick like three weeks ago or something like that well you were a fever you were feverish when you were debating the young kid remember that was the so that was the first round of sickness that was a sinus infection turned into pretty severe science fiction actually that night that we got off that live chat my temperature was and for a couple nights after that talk i was still pretty feverish but it was it wasn't anything that was like out of the norm and then um and then like two weeks after that my mother-in-law uh she went to go do like some sort of checkup um at the doctors for some other you know medical issue and it was like a routine kind of thing but they did like a scan for her chest and they found she had um i guess aidan it's called like glass lung or something like that or whatever it's called something like that anyway they found her they found some weird thing in her lungs they were like oh yeah that's indicative of covid and she was like well we just had an exposure to covid and i was tested and i didn't test positive and then yeah you probably tested too soon you get tested again she got tested turns out basically everybody got affected and i was like well i feel fine like uh adrian and i got tested we didn't test positive and then oliver started feeling a little goofy so we took him to his pediatrician and she was like yeah he's got it and i was like well i was just tested for it and i didn't have it that was like two days ago she's like yeah you tested too early wait a couple days and i was like yeah i don't think i'm this is probably just you know whatever um i'm probably going to be asymptomatic and there's nothing actually even wrong because oliver seems for the most part okay and then um that next day that was on a friday that next day on saturday i did yard work and i came back inside and i basically just like felt like i was dying and for two weeks well for the first week it was pretty much the normal stuff you hear about just the um extreme fatigue massive headaches um really bad uh respiratory stuff and then um you know it kind of like moves throughout my sinuses and whatever and then somewhere like in the third or fourth day i just lost all taste and smell completely i still don't have any of that back yet um but everything else got better but pretty much i'd say i think it was like 14 people in our family immediate and extended got in adrian's family got covered her dad is still um home from work because he got he has developed into lower lobe pneumonia her grandfather got it and he ended up just passing away from it like uh last week um her grandmother got it she's fine yeah so so a whole whole litany of you know people got it in the family and for the most part um you know it ran its course about the same with everybody but uh there were a few stragglers who got affected really bad but then again there was also the comorbidities and stuff with her grandfather was like 88 years old diabetic you know heart issues stuff like that so um it was pretty sudden but yeah i mean um do you know what they treated him with in the hospital or did he die at home yeah so he went into the hospital i don't i don't want to give away like too many details we can maybe talk about it private yeah yeah there was some sketchy stuff for sure um yeah and uh but that's just lancaster general health and you know their our local hospital is very um sloppy but anyway um so my opinion on the whole like um jab thing though is essentially what it's been the whole time which is just uh i don't trust it i think that people have to make the decision for themselves as to whether or not you know if they want to provide for their families and they feel like that's the only thing they can do then yeah you know be very prayerful about it be discerning about it and do what you have to do um but if you can avoid getting i didn't think at all in fact don't get and i also want to say about that um about the podcast that you sent aiden that uh that tim said i don't i don't trust ancient faith radio whatsoever um they're completely biased in one political direction and um i think that the orthodox police are going to come after you for saying that no i think that a lot of the people on the ground in the orthodox church are uh in david's position in my position but unfortunately like with most media you're gonna hear the loudest most obnoxious side is the one that's typically wrong and the one that is actually a vast minority so i don't remember the link who sent the link i don't remember that link aidan said it to me a while ago and you said hey what are your thoughts on this it was a link to ancient faith radio is um ewtn there's some good stuff on there but in the past couple years it's it's gone it's gone pretty woke and um okay so you know there's been a big crop up of like actual traditional orthodox content creators well the thing is is that um you know with this kind of stuff they try and pretend like the vaccine is not political but unfortunately it's become an extremely political thing so um they try and say that one position of it is is completely political but that the other stance or position on the on the jab is not political and so because they are a is uh the jab what we're calling it now yeah cause you guys keep saying the jab and i haven't heard that before like yeah i gotta be careful with this few or some fewer syllables yeah okay cool oh yeah the jab guys all right cool also they're deleting lots of they're deleting lots of stuff too for saying you know they have their algorithms so well it's because of the jab exactly such a jack wagon but yeah david it's pretty much it's uh the podcast is rubbish okay sorry but it's rubbish yeah i mean i i just and i also hate this idea that it's like oh i'm a doctor so because i'm an orthodox lay person and i'm a doctor that means somehow i'm in authority on what an orthodox person should do uh when it comes to the jab and i think that it's just uh it's ridiculous they've been canceling tons of uh they are you remember because you make fun of his name all the time because you always make fun of the uh orthodox monks names because you just think they're hilarious but uh i have a tree for pronouncing them so yeah i know so you always get like you always make up hilarious names and it's it's funny but do you remember abbott tree fawn i know i sent you some of this stuff before and i know you've been like oh he's good but his name is hilarious i don't okay i know this dude ever uh super humble monk he's an abbot uh up in washington state they canceled him simply because he said well no i think that um it's dangerous to take this vaccine especially with the little that we know about it and they canceled him because he was being too political about it and because he speaks out against marxism and stuff and then literally two days after they canceled this dude um they come out with all these articles and podcasts on why the vaccine is good so i mean it's just it's not very altruistic in my opinion and i think that uh as much as hearts actually they canceled him uh the the company ancient faith because they're not for profit so they're so that they have some big donors in there that have some pretty uh they have some pretty obvious political affiliations and if they pull the plug and say hey i don't like the content you're producing i'm not going to give you any more of my money then that obviously puts them in a in a tough position so they have to cater to the people that are giving them money i mean as most non for profits go that get corrupted that's that's what happened with ancient faith and that's what people are starting to see because they just keep canning uh good solid holy priests who are just literally speaking about the truth and then they're bringing on a bunch of people that want to resurrect origin and make him a saint and talk about universalism and a whole bunch of garbage and it's just nonsense yeah did you ever listen to that uh universalist orthodox going to heaven yeah yeah it was very disturbing because i thought that was one of my first introductions to orthodoxy and i'm like is that what they're all like no that is the vast minority position it's it's not even a minority but it's literally not even supposed to be a position it's condemned as heresy in this ecumenical council it doesn't matter what part of origin you want to resurrect whether it's the pre-existence of souls or it's uh universal salvation or it's the allegorizing of genesis it doesn't matter it's all been condemned in the sixth academical council and then it was reaffirmed again or it was condemned in the fifth council and then reaffirmed in the sixth council and then you have crazy um orthodox people that are trying to state insane things like origen was a saint and uh like the the bishop baron type stuff like dare we hope that i'll be saved i mean no we don't because christ says that's not going to happen we can have hope and love and want people to be saved but if you're trying to say that satan's going to be redeemed i'm sorry scripture is pretty explicit that that's not going to happen so it's just the the um yeah i guess uh uh hope and desire are two two different i mean because like what you're stating is uh um you know uh we kind of hope that jesus is wrong about his proclamation about um you know how many people are actually like that's because um you there yeah you keep cutting out i don't know maybe my internet connection's not good it's a poopy i'm going to move my laptop closer to me okay oh he's on this laptop somehow um yeah not a good one okay um gotcha can you is it is it not cutting i can hear you now yeah i can hear you now so you're saying that there's a whole bunch of orthodox not a whole bunch you're saying there's a minority of elevate origin as a saying yeah there's a basically what it is is that there's a whole yeah there's a there's a small few of very loud and obnoxious orthodox that are trying to uh emphasize a whole litany of heterodox things that we don't accept as a church and it's unfortunate because it always seems to be the case whether you're talking about the orthodox church or the catholic church or the protestant churches largely speaking that the most loud obnoxious ones are often the ones that are the most heretical so i like that one of my biggest pet peeves about um there's two things in orthodoxy that when i first came in contact with it and i didn't know any better i thought i don't know if i'm going to have to look into this a lot further because if this is true then i don't want to be orthodox one of them was was universalism if that was really as wide reaching as it seemed to be because i didn't necessarily want to be in a church where that was even allowed to be a debate and then the other thing was uh substitutionary atonement because i kept hearing from all these different orthodox theologians and writers and stuff like that like pop theologians the people that you'd hear on ancient faith that oh orthodoxy doesn't believe in uh in the atonement of jesus christ we don't we don't believe that uh christ was a substitutionary sacrifice for sins because oh that's that's evil god wouldn't uh wouldn't do that but i was like okay but that's totally biblical language to hear that so what i what i learned is that actually no it's completely orthodox to teach the substitutionary atonement it's just that we don't believe that god's wrath is what is poured out on christ like protestants do we believe that uh you know it wasn't it wasn't like he was taking on the punishment of god the father or anything like that so but we definitely believe that christ was a substitute for us and that he was an atonement for us and took on our sin and paid the price for it there's definitely a penal aspect to it and there's a substitutionary aspect to it so there's little things like that in orthodoxy that you hear all these like kind of pop things like sometimes like when when like um a good uh correlation for a catholic would be like oh don't you guys believe that everything the pope says is infallible it's like no of course we don't believe everything the pope says it's it's a common misunderstanding that is super irritating um so yeah so unfortunately there's tons of little things like that within the orthodox world that people are like well i thought that orthodoxy taught x y and z and the other big thing the third and most annoying thing is orthodoxy doesn't really seem to uh have its doctrine pinned down and this is what i thought for a little while leading up into actually looking into orthodoxy because it basically just seemed like well they don't really like to define anything it seems like they're just kind of like everything's a mystery which in one sense yes we are big on mystery but we have i mean we have a church filled with a history of uh very accurate and detailed theologians so it's just uh anyway i'm rambling david that's your cue because i don't have anything good to offer i just i wanted to ask you kieran um because i i have never really understood um why it was necessary for christ to suffer because i know that one drop of his blood would have sufficed or even one word or just the thought i mean he could do it he's god he can do what he wants um but i also know there's the infinite um insult of mankind's sin in paradise that needs to be accounted for and needs to be um reconciled or whatever the word would be i guess uh atoned for yeah um so i understand all that but i mean my understanding of why christ suffered so much and died isn't really clear and i think i think the way i intuitively the way i think about christ's extreme suffering physically the way he was tortured and had a bad trial all that sort of stuff um the way i think about it sort of intuitively is that this is what happens if you're patient and meek and humble it's an example it's an example it's an example yeah and then in terms of the spiritual suffering it's it's another example to us of which side are you going to be on are you going to be comforting christ during his torture and death on the cross or are you going to be one of the ones contributing to that that pain and suffering and like if you're with if you're with him you're comforting him and if you're against him you're actually literally torturing and killing him yeah so that's the way i see that's the way i see the death the suffering and death of christ but i don't i don't really understand theologically what god's intention was what was what was the minimum and what was the maximum and did christ achieve the minimum or the maximum price christ definitely had to die um the reason why he had to die and we we say this in the um resurrection hymn on pasca we say christ has risen from the dead trampling down death by death or conquering death by death and that's where you get like the little icxc nika that christ christ conquers christ conquers everything but the main thing that christ conquers his death and the only way to kill death is to kill it with death so christ be because he was perfect he didn't actually deserve um not the punishment of sin which is what a lot of people say oh we're being punished because we've sinned so now we have to die no no death is simply the natural uh reaction to walking yeah the natural consequence of walking away from the tree of life but because christ didn't transgress the law in any way obviously you know he didn't have to die he could have lived and he wouldn't have had to taste death but he took the sting of death saint paul says oh death where is your sting and christ took this thing of death and literally it's like he took the sting of death and injected it in death itself um so yeah his blood one drop could have sufficed to atone for the entire world but death itself would have actually had to have been met by christ who didn't deserve it in order to um take death and essentially have death kill itself um and so now obviously we participate in that so that's the most like elementary way that i could uh go into it but if you're if you're looking for if you're looking for a more extensive dive into the necessity of christ death burial and resurrection but specifically death i would point you to father stephen de young um in his whole council of god podcast um also he has a podcast called lord of spirits that's really good and then another um content creator who's also uh um on his way to be a theologian and he's a biblical scholar and stuff in the uh orthodox church his name is uh seraphim hamilton and he goes by the name cobain the christian and i'll give you these two guys you'll absolutely love their stuff but they get really super in depth with um atonement and that kind of stuff and they put it in its proper context and they correct a lot of the things that are sort of um pushed back too hard against by most orthodox because it's true protestants like if you're talking about calvinism they have a really gross idea of god where essentially not only do do they have a god that is demanding of sacrifice to the point because his wrath needs to be satiated which is really gross like thinking about god being passionate enough that he's so pissed off and angry that he needs to kill his own son not only is that an issue but the other issue is that if it's really god's wrath that's pouring out on the sun christ well number one he didn't pay the full price because he's not eternal he's not um eternally damned to hell christ went down into hell only for three days and all he did there was preach the gospel as saint peter said so he didn't actually pay the full price and secondly if you have god the father damning christ the son or pouring out his wrath and punishment on christ then that means you have a separation in the trinity which obviously can't be so now you have um now you have a separation or a split in the godhead which is nestorian and and can't be a thing so protestants take it too far and say that god poured out his wrath on the sun because he needed to have this wrath satiated and orthodox some orthodox take it too far in the opposite direction and say no we don't believe any of that therefore we don't believe in substitutionary atonement when really it's the opposite we just um we just let scripture say what scripture says there's all sorts of different analogies for christ's death burial and resurrection in one passage we hear that it's like a legal debt in another pac uh uh passage we hear that there's a healing aspect to it we hear that christ is victorious we hear all these different analogies and like any analogy if you stretch them too far you're they're going to break so rather than saying when christ when scripture says for instance in colossians that you know christ uh took our our iou or our our sin debt and nailed it to the cross people are like oh well who's that payment for and then you get certain theologians throughout the church age saying oh he paid god off then you get other people saying oh well he actually paid satan off then you get people saying oh well he paid he paid death off or he paid so and so off but to take it any further than what scripture says in one sense you can start to poke holes in everything so you have to be careful when you're talking about anything theological not to take any of the scriptural pictures and analogies too far so is there a legal aspect to atonement yes is there a healing aspect to it yes is there a recapitulation aspect to it yes absolutely all of these things um is the orthodox position significantly different in any way like a major way or a subtle way from the catholic position on a tournament yeah so it's hard to stress how like severe it you guys have you guys obviously believe in substitutionary atonement but i don't think that you guys believe that for instance god poured out his wrath no the son yeah i don't personally believe that but i don't know what the church teaches i don't think the church i don't think the catholic church doesn't make sense i think i think that you guys um you guys have more nuance in your understanding of the atonement like orthodox does but your main emphasis is on the judicial aspect of it um so classically looking at at catholicism what you can really see is that protestantism largely uh mimics or understood atonement in the same way but rather than saying that humans have the capacity to participate in the redemptive aspect of it or to partake in the merits of um of of you know all that christ did and the saints and all these things protestants would just say well no we don't participate in any we don't get any merits for anything because they don't understand the distinction between merit and um you know payment or or or wages they think that if you say that while we merited something blah blah blah that means that god owes it to us not understanding that merit just means it's like a reward uh you don't that god doesn't owe you anything but because you're faithful he gives you a little treat or something um so there's a difference only in that aspect i think between most protestants um and catholic understandings of the atonement and then with orthodoxy we kind of take in everything so you'll hear the different theories of atonement whether it's christus victor or penal substitutionary atonement or uh the moral exemplar position or whatever and we look at all those and we say every one of those has some truth in it that's you can you can you can read fathers of the church that lean more heavily on the penal aspect of it you find more fathers that lean more heavily on the recapitulation aspect of it if you read saint cyril he talks heavily about the recapitulation theory where christ had to go through every stage of humanity first and redeem it and recapitulate it before he suffered on the cross um and that he he looks at the um he takes more of the christus victor view which is essentially yeah christ conquered death by death and the atonement yeah sure it was there but i mean the main thing wasn't that christ paid a penalty for sin the main thing is that christ conquered death by death so you can find all these different elements without throughout the church history uh history but i think that within the last thousand years from like anselm up i think is when when catholicism classically started getting more judicial with its understanding of atonement uh and we just don't really like look at it like that although we acknowledge that there's an aspect to it that's true to say there's a judicial thing being fulfilled so thanks for that uh aiden i want to get your perspective on what you think the catholic sort of idea of atonement is like i mean you can just say uh you agree with everything your brother said or you can add whatever is different but the reason i'm asking you the reason i'm asking you to do this now is because i've got i've actually got my little book of uh catholic dogma here and i'm going to read a tiny paragraph after you've said your thing and see if it if it changes your opinion at all and see if what karen thinks of it too so what is your basic hunch about the vicarious atonement of christ on the um you're breaking up breaking up um breaking up aidan are you there am i breaking up yep yeah yeah you're good we can hear you now good um no my view is um i i don't know i haven't read my substitution but i would assume that it's a very uh centered um uh centered uh teaching on the whole thing closer to what kieran is saying but kieran and i had a conversation about a quote the other day and so i kind of see it as jesus opened a pathway for all men to follow and it kind of um uh goes under uh the you have to die before you die so that when you die you don't die and um that's how i kind of think about that because uh if i do too much diving into certain things it becomes too scrupulous for me and it just kind of like i just over confuse myself yeah but that being said every time i pop open my catechism um it's so beautifully centered and um i i love i love the catechism i love the most recent catechism yeah i think your brother's looking at it right now i'm not mistaken are you yeah i am oh yeah yeah oh he's trying to get the headstart oh david's going to say this and i need to say that this is wrong no i want to see you i want to see it the catechism um has such a way about like like explaining things that's not like overtly um technical technical yeah so it's kind of like okay like i'm reading on christ offered himself to the father for our sins and on everything i'm reading like yeah i agree with that but there's like so far there's no talk about was written by masons who are trying to uh basically modernism into the whole gamut so i think you should close that book and uh open some father seraphim rose and read to us from that what do you think buddy amen dude love me some father seraphim so uh one of the dogmas we have in the catholic faith is christ offered himself on the cross as a true and proper sacrifice that's a defeated dogma we also have another defeated dogma christ by his sacrifice on the cross has ransomed us and reconciled us with god and then that's the other one ransomed ransom theory yes we believe in that too but not to the death level wasn't it anselm that said that that speculated that um the ransom was paid to satan i hope not that's absolutely nothing to say but um no we don't we don't owe anything to satan but um there's a little paragraph here called inadequate patristic theories of the redemption and it cites uh saint irenaeus of lyon and he initiated the so-called recapitulation theory or mystic theory of redemption and um it teaches that christ as the second adam saved and united with god the whole human race in this view salvation of man had already taken place in principle through the incarnation of the son of god side by side with this theory which gave to the passion and death of christ a subordinate significance only saint irenaeus also expounds the pauline teaching of the ransoming and reconciling through christ's death on the cross so i guess it just it just subordinates a little bit the death and suffering on the cross origen on the other hand changed the pauline teaching of man's ransom from the dominion of the devil to an unbiblical ransom theory um it was origin perhaps yeah he held the devil by adam's sin had acquired a formal dominion over mankind in order to liberate mankind from this tyranny christ gave his life to the devil as a ransom price but the devil was deceived as he was not able to maintain for long his dominion of death over christ and so on and so forth okay others explained that the devil lost his dominion over mankind by unjustly trying to extend his right this right to christ also despite the fact that this error was widespread patristic teaching held firmly to the biblical teaching of man's reconciliation with god through christ's death on the cross the notion of a dominion of the devil over fallen mankind was energetically refuted by ansem and some of canterbury ah there you go so it was the opposite so he fought against it yeah the notion the notion of the atonement i don't know if you mind if i read a little paragraph this is the catholic nutshell here it says there's a there's a dogma christ through suffering a death rendered vicarious atonement to god for the sins of man that's that's a dogma the other one is christ's victor the cure vicarious atonement is adequate or of full value by reasoning by reason of its intrinsic merit that's another dogma christ vicarious atonement is super abundant that is the positive value of the expiation is greater than the negative value of the sin and finally christ did not die for the predestined only christ died not for the faithful only but for all mankind without exception that's an interesting one a lot of rad trads in the kafka church don't believe that yeah but the thing is is that they have a that again because they're importing origin on what that means there's two views of of apoca stasis which one is the correct view and the other one is the false view one says that either a everyone is ultimately going to be in union with christ they might just have to go through some suffering first and then there's the correct one um or then and then b um everyone's just automatically going to go to heaven so you have one with a little bit of suffering one with no suffering and then you have the correct view of the pocket the stasis which is that um all of uh creation is gonna be put back in order and it's gonna be um it's gonna be re-justified or re-justiced meaning everything's going to be put back in balance so that's the correct view dying for all of mankind everybody nobody technically is actually going to stay dead i mean they're going to taste the second death if they're not with christ but everyone's going to be resurrected so that's the correct way to view it is that everyone's going to be resurrected and where they're at is going to be in perfect alignment with what is actually supposed to be the case so that everything is in perfect balance yeah um because again like if you if you take the judicial or the justice view of salvation too far you start start to get an idea that justice is this thing where christ where god needs to satiate his anger and he has to punish somebody he can't let something be unpunished when we would say no god can supersede that with his mercy but also you have a false view of what justice is justice literally just means things in balance which is why when you have the little law symbol you have the statute with the two balancing scales because true justice is not having somebody being punished severely it's having things being put back in order properly and things being in perfect balance so yeah anyway amen to that dave yeah um there's just a little definition here given of the atonement by atonement in general is understood the satisfaction of a demand in the narrower sense it is taken to mean the reparation of an insult so i think that uh is a nice clarification you know what's funny though you know atonement is like a like only a couple hundred year old word does it really literally mean at one yeah there was i forget which um i forget which theologian it was back in the um oh i think it was even after the medieval times it might have been in the victorian era or after um but when they were translating in well i guess it would have been in the in the uh i think it was first in the 1611 king james so it would have had to be around that time i believe don't you know fact check me on that but i know it was around that time um but when they were translating they had no like they had no word for atonement um and so they they kind of got this idea of like okay well there's this idea of being put back in proper relationship to god i'm at one with god so that's where they got atonement from so you get all these like different views of atonement but the word itself is actually it actually i think it's hilarious because it i think it um i think that it it perfectly uh encapsulates the the holistic kind of orthodox view of a relationship with god which is to be in union with him which is what salvation is to be in union with christ so at one with christ atonement i don't know yeah i never knew that before but i thought that was funny it's a made-up word totally i mean all words are made up but it's like a very made-up word well it's funny that it made it do you think the word or the concept oh god david no i was just going to say one little thing that it it made its way so powerfully into the old testament that uh day of atonement and all that is like very prominent yeah so it came in handy yeah oh yeah i was actually gonna say don't you think it kind of the concept of atonement do you think it kind of falls short because of jesus's sacrifice um well mankind and creation will be propelled into a place that is vastly superior to that of where um creation started before mankind fell yeah well maybe we're more at one with god in the end in the second paradise than in the first paradise right yeah right i mean um that's the i'm selfish so that's what i'm looking that's what i'm looking forward to um reading about adam before the fall and hearing like oh yeah you have the chance you have the opportunity we all have the opportunity to be in a state that supersedes what he originally had and lost and it's like oh that seems uh that seems really appealing to me in one sense um because the only thing better than if less is more just imagine how much exactly so do you spend do christians spend a lot of time thinking about the meaning of christ's death like i mean because i find it i find it a little bit mysterious and is it something that a lot of christians uh my wife just came home and said i had to tell her i love her what was the fashion dude i'm sorry i love you do uh thank you same to you do you uh do a lot of christians of all different types think about christ's death and the mystery of it or is it not something that gets a lot of thought from christians we should we should kieran was it you who said something to me or was it an orthodox saint that said something about the crucifixion being the actual ending of creation that wasn't me oh well i read that and that blew my mind we never thought about that before and it's like didn't you just tell me didn't you just tell me about that or maybe we read it together or something because i think i know i know i brought it up to you yeah yeah do you know i've thought about death a lot but not like the the full implications of that depth because it's just or that death because it's just so it's so heady and not only that but because there is such a focus on the crucifixion especially in orthodoxy especially in catholicism that it it's a lot like saying a word over and over and over again until there's this meaning so you know i have my crucifix here that i love looking at jesus on my crucifix but like really it should disturb me to think that like dude you have um you have a guy hanging from across and literally perpetually like stuck in a state of um so i don't know i don't know dave i don't know if it's possible for any of us to think to truly think enough about i when i'm in when when i'm in a proper headspace uh when i'm doing my rosary and i'm looking at the um the crucifix and christ's body represented on this representation of the crucifix i tripped myself out by doing a meditation where it jesus christ is in that statue he's tiny he's only six inches tall and he's in that bronze or whatever the metal is he's within there like his body's in there suffering like he's right there he's a foot and a half away from my face and he is literally inside that metal casing suffering and dying right that's uh that was a powerful meditation that i had because sometimes i think okay i have to place myself in the scene and i just imagine jerusalem and all that it's like no screw that i'm i'm here right now in my room with this crucifix and jesus christ is six feet six inches tall he's inside this metal casing like a torture device so that was a powerful and trippy uh meditation and sometimes if i'm in if i'm in a good head space i can feel that and i think we need to sort of connect with that the reality of it and another meditation i've been doing at the mass is getting really really nervous that uh the priest is going to spill the precious blood of christ once it's been consecrated and turned into the blood and trying to picture that it really is christ's blood because it is but i'm trying to have that nervousness because when my wife has a glass of water on the couch i'm nervous so why shouldn't i be nervous about the priest holding yeah hey david it says the call is going to end in 10 minutes just to let you know absolutely yeah yeah we'll wrap it up we'll definitely wrap it up because i got to go yeah but one thing i wanted to say about the empty cross of the protestants do you think that's a little bit of uh reluctance to acknowledge the price that was paid or am i missing the point of protestantism yeah i don't know what that is there is i think because they because of uh the sacrifice being paid once and for all in hebrews talking about um you know the the the one sacrifice they look at and they're like see it's over it's done with well that's because they don't have a proper understanding of the eucharist and um you know how we participate in the sacrifice right uh every time we go to mass or liturgy and uh yeah so i think it's just the fundamental misunderstanding but as a side note like i i'm wearing my you know little right now that doesn't it doesn't have christ on it yeah every cross i have has christ on it there's an over there's an emphasis in in my church in particular with the resurrection of christ because i think honestly in a lot of traditions of christianity the the thing that gets most often overlooked is how important the resurrection is and how uh fundamental and important that is and what that signifies but um even even the descent into hades the heart that the harrowing of hades and uh not having a fully fleshed out kind of idea of what's going on there in most traditions there always seems to be either the emphasis on uh just the crucifixion or uh yeah the crucifixion's done bro yeah nothing else needs to be done christ paid at all bro it's like yeah of course you did but so i think that that i think that's that's something that they're like allergic to uh crucifix but they're inconsistent with it it is it is weird because they won't wear a crucifix around i think it also might have to do with uh like an iconic class which is which is so bizarre though because um having christ on the cross depicts something that is act it's actually the incarnate the incarnate word but when you just have the symbol of the cross like if you want to talk about paganism that literally is paganism an that is actual paganism it's it's so the irony is just never thought of hilarious that is a that is a pagan symbol and it obviously was a pagan torture device so to have an empty cross with no christ on it if you if a roman citizen were to look at that back in the day in the first century they'd be like oh who are you going to torture and kill they would have no understand no christian would have an understanding of what an empty cross meant apart from christ being crucified on it so it's so ridiculous the iconoclastic thing of like but then what also is weird is like you're going to most pro and i'm in people's houses all the time and they're largely evangelical houses and they'll have pictures of christ all over the place they're just not canonically painted or written icons so because they have a blond-haired jesus that's hanging on a cross it's somehow okay because it's it's painted in uh you know victorian style whatever but if you have an icon it's like oh no graven image is like what it doesn't make any sense maybe they see that they were yeah but i i did read something very powerful in a protestant writer of i don't know the 18th century or 19th century something like that it was all about the precious blood of christ and i found it very shocking i know there are a lot of evangelicals that talk about uh the blood of christ and the cleansing power of the blood of christ and i like that i belong to the confraternity of the precious blood but this writing that i read it was representative of one particular protestant group that was sort of obsessed or focused on the blood of christ and the power of the blood of christ so that's maybe not your typical protestant um emphasis but it was very weird and refreshing to read it and i couldn't help but think that it was very catholic i don't know or maybe orthodox too plea plead the blood of jesus you do get that a lot of pentecostal and uh like charismatic baptist okay churches yeah yeah my wife goes to a baptist church and he's a great pastor and he's he every time that they're at church he talks about the blood of christ but uh yeah it is it is rather interesting so there's still there's there's good um you know in those traditions there's just they're missing a lot and they're uh they're adding a lot of weird stuff too i just think it's funny how ironic it is we you know as catholics and orthodox we get accused of paganizing christianity but yeah most of pr most of protestantism is literally just gnosticism it's essentially uh you need to believe everything exactly the way it needs to be believed otherwise you're not going to be saved and they just import all these weird dualistic uh gnostic teachings and it's and then we get accused of being pagans because we you know we pray to the mother of god i like in this uh book fundamentals of catholic dogma that i'm reading uh doing a little series on it but the author makes no bones about it he just said he just clumps together like the errors of of uh like the materialists the pantheist and liberal christian theology it's like all clumped together right yeah just like in certain in certain respects like it's just like they completely miss the boat in exactly the same way it's like what a what what a group like you know you got the gnostic manichaeans you got the pantheist you got the materialists and you got your liberal liberal protestant theology it's like strange bedfellows i guess yeah yeah for sure we'll wrap it up there but make sure i'm thinking wrong huh go ahead finish wrap it up there it always that always makes i was just gonna say that always makes me think like oh where am i like like what like if everybody's so wrong then like where am i where am i where's my wrongness because yeah yeah um it's really it's really easy to look in those things and be like this is wrong this is wrong this is wrong and then i'm always just like oh man if everybody else is wrong i'm probably wrong about a ton of stuff of course of course of course pressure your brother said you're the one who kind of but your brother your brother showed me that that thinking yes it's so wrong about everything in me yeah yeah we're so wrong about everything but that's what your brother kieran said it's like uh we don't we don't get to heaven by having a checklist of beliefs and getting the the quiz right right so right um but uh i was just thinking today we may get cut off at any moment but we're thinking i was thinking today about the little child and the two kids in the backseat of the car and they're so worried about you know oh did did daddy did mommy and daddy do their taxes properly did they remember to file like the uh the a30 form did i don't know if oh i don't know if he signed oh i'm so worried about this you know and the kids are discussing like the stuff that's well beyond their ken it's like kids aren't supposed to do that right it's like we're in the back seat we're supposed to just be good and keep quiet and that's about it right like we're not supposed to put our nose in uh god's business really that's a really good analogy i like that yeah so this talks about how dog went dictator prayer life yeah yeah he talks about how it guides i think he says it's like the light pose does he say there's a light am i cutting is c.s lewis the one that said they're the lights on the path is that what he said do you remember that dogmas are the lights on the path like you're walking a dark path but we have the dogmas that light up the path i don't know if that's right i don't remember i like cs lewis though yeah he might have making up his a map and a a man i think he uses something with this the be afraid that like i don't have this dogma right and this dogma right then i'm going to be way off the path and it's kind of like like you know you're just kind of at god's mercy anyway so yeah he's going to pour his wrath on you yeah yeah exactly he already has look at this wonderful so thanks for taking the time guys and i hope you i hope you guys don't get any more of the kovids okay of the coofs the coops and don't get any more don't get any more jabs how's that uh david let us know let us know what matt says then yeah yeah yeah yeah i will i'll email you all right cool later talk soon i just all right cool later talk soon i just tell

CVS Live Guest - 2022-03-15 - The Lisney Bros.

so i think we're live i'm here with aiden again how are you doing aiden good how are you man i'm doing all right thank you very much what are you drinking this is um a free perrier energy drink that i got because i ordered my groceries online and nice they gave me a free perrier energy drink with like caffeine yeah caffeine and some gourana or something ooh guarana or whatever it is is that bad [�__�] it sounds like it so excuse my language but um no whatever it is it doesn't taste great so i added in some uh i added in some here's a plug for perrier it doesn't taste great i i added in some uh i have alpha mousse or whatever it's called uh grapefruit flavor and get pamped man i put that in and uh but the thing is it's uh it's making me nervous because all the caffeine i don't do caffeine normally really why not because it makes me nervous oh dude you're missing out wait so um uh the lakora the lacroix as i as i call it the lacroix pamplemoose um in the states we don't really call things pamplemousse the first time we ever saw that was on the the uh the fizzy drinks the the lacroix drinks that like okay pamplemoose became a thing it's just great it's just great for their grapefruit right what's the brand name yeah what's the brand name of the thing it's like it's lacroix let's see what it is but for a while i was really deep in the cut and uh looking up a lot of lacroix pamplemoose memes because they're just so stupid and a lot of them were like get pamped you know uh you know what la cua means right no i don't the cross does it yeah oh that quarter i didn't think the quad decreased now across so like why would it be used on uh like a fizzy drink it's just a popular french name like uh and there's a place called la qua in france i can google that okay oh is that a place it doesn't seem to be a place maybe i'm wrong about that maybe it's the name of uh a news publication oh yeah so enough about that that's it's not tangent too much but um yeah i've got about an hour because my wife uh wants that that's what i've got we've got dexter new blood to to jump into so we've got a first episode down and now we gotta see where this is going that's a serial killer guy yes it is he he is i thought he moved to your country but apparently it was just upstate new york and i'm disappointed that he went from florida to new york instead of florida to canada so i was just like look at that ah but cool so what season is it it's like the ninth or something like that oh yeah but uh that reminds me this is not a good segue but i should uh share the link with matthew murdock because i told him i would give him the link and he can hop in here share it to kieran let him uh oh well kieran's gonna be painting but share it to him just in case he wants to to come and talk hop on yeah okay of course he wants to hop on let's see a couple of dudes hey yo oh man he really railed me the uh the other day in like one of these chats that we're in okay so he it was so good um he was talking to one of his friends who i believe is an orthodox priest or a deacon his last name i think is deacon so i think it's i think his name is father deacon um but um kieran uh what how does he say this he's just so ridiculous um hold on a second he talks that this guy is like chatting he's saying he needs to lose some weight and karen's like funny story aiden lost a lot of weight and uh um he said he just woke up one day and stopped smoking cigarettes and decided that he had to had to lose a lot of weight and then he was like um then he proceeded to say that it was from my having danced in a bunch of gay bars i believe like all right karen got me there he's obsessed with you and gay sex that those are his two obsessions karen yeah yeah i've been told that i'm obsessed with poop okay that's why he's attracted to you i guess i guess so it makes a lot of sense all right david i've got some questions for you today actually sure all right so we we've been talking about the rosary and um i wanted to know how long you have been praying it well i since the beginning like since my conversion in 2009 so you've had over 10 years of consistently praying this devotion yeah i've yep what's the biggest block i've ever skipped that's a good question um i think i've never skipped more than two days a week i don't think i've ever done more than that but i only do that i don't do the full rosary you know as you know no it's like five decades yeah you've done it but you've done five decades pretty consistently consistently yeah the the promise to get the promises you have to do a full rosary once per week did you know that of the conference do you mean the conference yeah you knew about that so yeah um as long as you do it four times a week you're pretty much covered right if you do different if you do different mysteries i follow the classic i follow the classic uh monday tuesday thing okay schedule um just mondays and tuesdays no no but i mean i'm just i don't wanna name all seven days of the week i think you should i don't wanna show off come on um so that's that's a really long time and that's really impressive because like the rosary at some points becomes so repugnant to the to the practitioner now ask me how many times i've actually paid attention while praying it no but that's like that's a key part nobody has ever successfully done one of them well i don't i i just don't believe it in my in my heart i think saint louis demolifor did you think he did yeah do you think so yeah i think a lot of the saints did i think a lot of the saints did that's what i like to think andre pio probably did too that dude was a monster he was always he was floating in the air like you said you told me uh jp2 floated in the air right yeah that's what i've heard i mean i'm trusting the people you told me that i believe yeah definitely um what about you what about you how much how often and how consistently have you been doing it for how many years uh the end of 2017 is when i decided to make a commitment to it um and i've had periods of time where like i've gone like the first year i did it every single day for a full year you know just a five decade and then um called uncle at a certain point and like have gone periods of time weeks or months without without it and then would like pick it up and recommit and pick it up and recommit i failed so many times with it um but i've also had moments with it where i pray it more than more than the five decades um a day because it's my primary it's my primary prayer so if i just you know at this point i've built up enough of a relationship with it where i know like okay i have no reason not to squeeze five decades in every day um because if i worse comes to worse i can just pray the sorrowful mysteries which is like sadistic to think this way but it's like well those are always easy for me because like you know suffering and it's tuesday today is really sorrowful tuesday yes it is do you do so you do follow the the recommended thing you don't no i just do i just do whatever i feel inspired okay so yeah yeah i try not to be too scrupulous with that with me because i'm just like you know what if i'm picking it up and i'm praying like like one of the traditional sets i don't really care and if i end up praying more then i then i'm like i'm sad so today i prayed um the sorrowful and the joyful and with no intentions of playing praying the joyful i was just going to pray the sorrowful all day i was basically just going to repeat it because i do that at times too where i do nothing but pray the you know the sorrowful mysteries um i found whatever i found a new uh a new thing that i tried twice and uh i'll bounce the idea off you and see how you feel about it sure okay so um you know i know it's kind of a bad habit playing video games but there's this new video game i'm obsessed with which is very wholesome and there's no sex or violence in it um but it's very calm and there's no stress there's no pressure there's no time there's nothing you just you're just building stuff okay okay minecraft it's called uh astroneer astroneer and uh it's just a cute little game kind of like a lego mechanic everything is clicky and little sound effects as you build your little things and whatever okay so it's just kind of like if you want to do a brain dead activity that's kind of fun like playing with blocks it's kind of like that but for adults i guess so anyway um what i did is i said okay i wasn't in the mood to pray my rosary it was a saturday or a sunday i forget which but um i'm obsessed with this game so i thought okay while i'm playing this mindless game what if i do the rosary but because i'm not really paying attention because i'm playing a game while praying my rosary that's not really very good but what if i do like an hour and a half and i do all uh how many mysteries are there 20 if i do all 20 mysteries because i have um i like to listen to it i like it's like a it's a nice way to pray the rosaries to listen to it so i put it on it's actually my own version with my own voice so it's kind of like it's me praying sure so i did that it was like an hour and a half and um you know not really paying attention but just kind of absorbing it so um i kind of like the idea of working myself into a spa head space where i can feel comfortable with because normally i would have a heart attack like a panic attack thinking about oh my god i have to do like all 20 mysteries it's too much of a commitment and too much too much time and like i'm just going to be on the edge of my seat the whole time like am i going to get through this and whatever but it was nice because i just said look this is a freebie thing it's kind of like a half-hearted rosary but i make up for it by doing an extra long one 20 mysteries which i don't normally ever do and um i enjoyed it like i enjoyed that and i think if i get in the habit of doing that it'll put me in a more relaxed state because my prayer life is always nervous um but i was completely relaxed as i was just sort of mucking about building stuff in my video game and listening to that so just want to get your feedback about like the pros and cons of that and uh how much that counts like does that count as doing the rosary or not or yeah so i guess i have some prettier liberal views on what counts and what doesn't count but i think that prayer in different contexts like just praying and being okay with praying badly and praying in weird ways and like praying um just in moments that can that like people would consider inappropriate i think that those are really beneficial because we're supposed to be striving to pray at all times and so like if you're playing a video game and you're like decompressing and you're using that also as prayer time i think that's really special and that like it's kind of just a it's kind of just bizarre in general to think of that but it's like why why not like why do we always have to like compartmentalize yeah we always have to compartmentalize so um and not only that but it's like pruning your neural networks so that like um like you're saying like because you're you're you're giving yourself a stimulus you know um uh like a lot like you know in this case you're attempting to do something for a longer amount of time that would usually elicit some form of extreme anxiety because i'm sure you still experience the anxiety even with just five decades right yeah yeah because you still feel like you have to get it done yeah yeah yeah right so it's like exposure you're exposing yourself to something that would normally elicit that like fear or like that fight this is an addiction i think this is an addiction i think yeah i mean yeah yeah i think so because what you're you're but you're just like allowing yourself to like get comfortable um just being around something so like when it's like exposure therapy and so you know like if you were afraid of a dog you wouldn't just go up to dogs and start petting them you'd be like ten feet away from a dog then seven feet away then six feet five feet four feet that type of thing until eventually just sitting next to the dog and then petting the dog and then petting the dog for one minute two minutes three minutes that type of thing so if you're listening to yourself um pray the rosary i see no reason why that wouldn't uh why that wouldn't be incredibly spiritually beneficial and um and count for your uh your prayer for the day especially if you have like a passive receptiveness to the whole to the whole process yeah and here's the other here's the other mind boggler so now that we have the internet and we have uploaded videos right you can like pray you can pray along the rosary with like groups of people that have prayed years ago and they've recorded it and uploaded it yeah and i always wonder okay so if i'm like playing a video of like a whole bunch of nuns and mother angelica and they're all playing praying this chaplain or praying this rosary like is god hearing their prayers as many times as they have hits on youtube and i like to think that like yeah that becomes like frozen in eternity and not only does it like accrue those prayers over and over again but every viewer that watches it and like prays along with it there's this like big cyclical ever-increasing um prayer that kind of like rebounds through through eternity nice like a fractal kind of prayer through space and time and all that yeah yeah and i mean that's how prayer is anyway because it goes outside space and time so yeah i found a nice um a nice youtube video okay i've got two things to say one is uh they do zoom rosary every day uh twice a day on a local catholic radio station here in montreal and i haven't tried i just learned about it today on the radio as i was driving around at work the other thing is i found a really nice uh rosary let me see if i can find the reference for you here quickly and uh let's just say joyful mysteries and i can find the one can you hear if i play audio will you be able to hear it don't know insane can you hear anything mary invites us to join her on a journey through the life of jesus when you listen back you'll hear the holy spirit okay i'm just gonna let this play for two seconds of the mother of our savior because we say the rosary with our body and our spirit it should touch us at every level of our being it is no monotonous ritual but a deeply contemplative christian prayer okay so hello um when you listen back if you listen back to this you'll hear it and you'll see the channel and all that stuff so i don't need to tell you about it but um i can't see you and i can't see myself right now oh here we are okay i'm back so it's a nice it's a nice uh rosary that they do it sounds like the guy might be east asian or something like that and there's singing and it's always the same music it's the same presentation but it gives a nice little meditation like just small very small meditations with the mysteries that's really cool they do the at the end they do the um what is it called the litany of our lady is that what they call it um are you familiar with that no i mean i know i mean i know i've heard it before i know i've read it before but um litany of loreto i think it is the litany of loretto yeah i am familiar yeah uh lord of mercy christ have mercy lord well this is a slightly different version than what i do heard those before but it just goes on and on i pray it uh every day i've actually memorized it have you really yeah i've memorized a whole bunch of prayers it's one of the things i love most about prayer even though i'm not good at prayer and i get nervous during prayer one of the things i really love is because i've always complained that i don't have a good memory but i've managed to memorize like a whole buttload of prayers excuse my language what a load of prayers buttload man you're so naughty i should publish a book like uh david's buttload of prayers be awesome and it would be great anyway uh yeah it's like it's like uh it's a it's something i enjoy is trying to use my memory for example let's say that you and i both know some guy like whatever because we watched his video or whatever okay and you're like oh do you remember that guy that did the video about uh litany of loretto and i'm like yeah and you're like what was his name again and then i would have to like search my memory and i'd be like don't tell me let me try to find it right in my memory and i don't want to look it up i want to find it in my memory that's one of my favorite things to do like is is to say is to tell myself david you know this guy's name right because you've been exposed to it x number of times you know that you know it's in your memory so um now it's a fun game to try to find that to scan to search around and find it but to watch to watch the process of trying to find it and to try to figure out what is it that leads you to that information okay is there an explicit um technique that works or is there um are there loose associations that you go to like i like examining that thought process of that's pretty cool searching the memory because it's very uh it's very mysterious the mind the human mind and the memory and the imagination and um like i mean i'm a little bit cautious about the imagination because of the orthodox and how the orthodox talk about don't don't indulge it don't indulge it don't explore it and all that but sometimes when i'm having trouble falling asleep at night i do tell myself okay you can uh allow yourself as long as it's not pornographic imagery you can allow yourself now to kind of let images come to you and i mean in eastern religion meditation they use i think they they shun imagery but they also explore going beyond imagery so i'm not sure how that works maybe you could talk about that but i don't know too much about um i don't know too much about imagery in eastern meditation in that in that context i know that they use a lot of visualization but that's like in um that's like a whole other field of um what's it called like the secret like it's like self-manifestation so it's kind of like here see yourself owning that that volkswagen jetta and it'll be yours i don't know why i picked a jetta but you know that kind of thing but i didn't really get too much into what's a because this episode is brought to you by jeddah and i'll stand by for those peace announcements do you ever watch your youtube videos and they have like they're just having a conversation and then suddenly the segway segway into the sponsor have you seen that i'm not well yeah i guess with pints with aquinas there's like different things but it's it's like you know the um catholic content yeah it's all it's all like catholic stuff there that they're advertising so if i see the um what's the what's the lent program that all the dudes do and they all brag about it and they all have to talk about it exodus 90. okay i'll do man don't worry about it tired of hearing about it it's like so overly catholic it's annoying it's like okay we get it you like to fast that's cool we got to be real men here like uh yeah yeah yeah that whole man's movement i've never really looked into it too much it's cool it's got benefits and even the exodus 90 program is cool i just don't like somebody imposing me you know with like cold showers oh yeah yeah you know what i mean like one of my guests uh talked about that and i'm like oh my god you must be a saint to do that like no that's the thing is that it like it's the it's the asceticism but like like i don't know i i have a maybe it's because i'm jealous i'm probably just jealous it's okay like it's okay to be jealous right well i mean it's okay you just can't be envious okay is that it yeah yeah it's jealousy is jealousy is you want the good thing that they have and envy is you don't want them to have it and you want them to be deprived of it and you want them to suffer because do i want them no i don't want any of that for them i just don't want them to talk about it no because it's just like because it equates it equates asceticism with holiness and it's like well yes and no it's like saying like suffering and sorrow equate love it's like they only equate love they only merit something is if you intentionally use them um alongside of love so like sorrow you know and and uh and uh self-deprecation or only only working if we're doing it for the love of god and doing it for the love of man otherwise in and of itself it has no merit so like me you know like showering in cold water and not watching netflix for 90 days to talk about it with a bunch of bros doesn't mean anything unless of course i'm you know using it to become more humble and using it to get to golf yeah so um but i guess i shouldn't call anybody out on that yeah yeah yeah well you know i mean honestly i think okay i think that um i agree with you that there could be pride involved like jesus said don't be like the hypocrites that show their they're wearing ashes on their head and sackcloth and all that with their fasting and all that sort of thing don't make a public display because they've already had the reward right you're better off saving your reward for heaven and all that so um i agree with that but i also i mean i can't help but admire people that have any discipline or any self-control or any temperance or moderation like i just can't help but admire them even if even if they're doing it for all the wrong reasons i still think wow right and even if it's amazing for the reason for the wrong reasons there's no real way to say to like put a finger on it and say like see that one's doing it for the wrong reasons we just don't know we don't know the hurt so but here's the cool thing about stepping on the gas going full throttle with that stuff so like i always have a hard time there's a certain group on youtube um uh gabby after hours he does some really good stuff um and he like talks about the rosary but a lot of them are really hyper into four a day you know and like dude my whole life changed since i've since i've been praying for a day the complete rosary yeah which is like admirable but at the same time it's that's a big that's a big time commitment and so um i'm like you know it is possible it's definitely possible because like i saw this and i was like you know what i'm gonna i'm gonna make an attempt to do this and i did it for an extended period of time over december and january wow um and it was a really cool experience but it's a really but here's the thing though david like you do it at the expense of other things so like spiritual reading kind of kind of drops down because you don't really have time to do that um like the bible or watching like like watching netflix yeah well no but and then and then you also find that a lot of the time to get it done to meet your commitment for the day you're praying at inopportune times so i'd be like shopping at the mall and i'm like praying and half praying half shopping and it's like you can't you can't really do one or the other very well you know and uh but the cool thing is about that is that you um it's like working out you only know your boundaries you only know what you're capable of by accidentally doing too much or by doing too little like you you come to learn more about yourself and about the practice through um committing yourself to doing to doing something that's out of your normal range and then from that experience i was like oh five is nothing well and whereas five used to really um you know five decades would like there'd be days when i'm just like i don't wanna i really don't wanna do it it would like emotionally crush me because i'm just like oh i feel like i'm being drugged down by this dead weight yeah and um and you know from that experience it's like you know one one rosary versus four rosaries is um very very doable and there's no reason why because there's no reason why you can't do it there's so many opportunities throughout the day or you can you can go back to your prayer you can break it up yeah you can go back to it and so um so while i don't necessarily think that like um i don't know there's just something about harping on quantity yeah um that i that i always have a real struggle with you know i like understand where they're coming from because you can't see really good fruits come from it um but you can also see you know like some of the negative aspects of it too yeah i i can be uh i'm gonna be honest here and it might be embarrassing but um if i if the church didn't so strongly recommend the rosary i just would not pray it i would not pray i would not pray i would not pray because right i don't it's not my natural instinct it's not like it's not something where i felt like i'm benefiting from it it's only because the church says hey this is really important and uh all the popes and all the indulgences and all the saints and everyone like i mean i just i can't ignore that i cannot i cannot ignore the weight that the magisterium gave it and the saints gave it and that everyone's giving it i just can't ignore that but right left to my own devices if i didn't know about all that i just would not do it i would i my prayer life would be a lot simpler right because i wouldn't do the rosary i wouldn't do any really fixed prayers ever what would you do i would just do the little spontaneous prayers that i love so much like just i love you and thank you and please help me and i'm sorry that's it you know that's it like just little ejaculatory prayers like ding ding ding ding and maybe maybe the jesus prayer like the jesus prayer i do have an attraction to it i do pray it i pray it's like my back burner prayer that's just it's if i find myself unloaded it's ray it's ready to come out like if i'm frustrated and if i'm annoyed and which happens a lot like when i'm when i lack patience i go to the jesus prayer you know that's cool yeah yeah that's really cool and i'm finding that i'm as i'm getting older and as sort of the past two years of pandemic and the lack of access to the sacraments i find that i'm more impatient and irritable and just nasty and so the jesus prayer comes out a lot like today i ripped my jacket like carrying because my bikes get stolen like there's no tomorrow i think it's karma because i used to steal bikes when i was a kid and uh so i've had like 20 or 30 bicycles stolen in my adult life from for real from me yeah yeah wow dude so i think that's a bit of karma but i try to accept it you know i just accepted and i thank god for humbling me in that way and for giving me the punishment in his life and these sorts of things but i was carrying my my new used bike because now i just buy used bikes because i lost so much money on expensive bikes that got stolen but um i was carrying my used bike up the staircase because i can't leave it outside and i live on the third floor so it's a lot of lugging bike heavy bikes up the stairs and i get my jacket gets dirty and today i ripped it like carrying this bike up a narrow stairwell and uh things like that like just that aggravate me and i was just annoyed and so there's this impulse to say i think i've mentioned to you this to you before where i have an impulse to say jesus christ as a as a curse word like a lot of people do and i just flow it into the jesus prayer and keep praying that over and over again cool but that initial moment is genuine frustration and it's a pejorative use of that word jesus christ right and so i just i don't beat myself up about it i just say no that's not the way and i just roll with the the proper use of the word and the name because it's a powerful name really cool it's a powerful name it's a powerful name um even for satan he wants to inspire me to misuse the name it's powerful for him and it's powerful for the good guys right so it's like just like sex like it's sex is good for satan because he can win a lot of souls with sex and sex is good for god because he can win a lot of souls with sex right so it's saying with food say you can win a lot of souls with food and god can win a lot of souls with food right the misuse of food and the proper use of food the misuse of sex and the proper use of sex like every good is a tool for satan and a tool for god for both of them to win souls that's how i see it yeah i really like that i think that's cool that you like reorient yourself to do something because that's really all you can do once you uh you know once you decide to to to make a change is just continually redirect until one day it just comes naturally or that stuff just kind of sloughs off like if i said the f-bomb instead then i couldn't really there's no prayer that stops it starts with the f-word right just kidding i'm kidding i'm kidding i'm sure that they're i'm sure there are tons of them what no not the ejaculatory ones the ones that are uh the ones that are off the cuff i'm sure those are the ones that contain the f word you know um they're very genuine i i think that uh there's something to be said about humanity admitting their their dirty broken awful just situations and meeting god in that situation um i think it's cool this conversation is reminding me of uh oh kieran says aidan is gay i didn't know that i think we have to end the conversation i don't speak with gay guests and uh he says hey aiden great shirt so uh yeah i just it's good karen i just read he should hop on the call here even though we don't have a lot of time left we have about half an hour left um the uh i just read a quote by a saint and he said um the reason that humility is the best tool we have one of the reasons i'm paraphrasing here obviously one of the reasons is because satan doesn't understand humility he just has no clue about humility he's never experienced it he's not capable of it he doesn't get it it doesn't make sense to satan like it just he there's nothing for him to grab a hold of with humility it's just completely foreign to him and this is a very long paraphrase of a really pithy uh statement which i wish i could uh regurgitate but i can't remember what he said but the basic idea was satan doesn't get humility he just just doesn't understand it and that's why it's so effective against him so what are your thoughts because it can because it confounds him yeah it seems that all the virtues are like that he doesn't understand love either and um uh humility is one of the weapons um i think it's it's the mentioned in the ways of mental prayer um dom fahody la hodi vitalis la hodi um uh like like if you find yourself doing something in prayer that's wrong or incorrect you use it as a moment to humble yourself and then you're you're brought to a place that's better having humbled yourself and having experienced that fault hey um hey sinner and that's why that's why we confound satan because it's something that's immediately used to turn sin into something um that warrants even greater grace cool hey your brother your brother looks wild i am i'm painting right now ah cool painting from painting for my buddy at uh at church oh wow yeah yeah yeah it's very good it's very good sandwich yes yes looking good bro okay oh shush you hey karen people at work saw uh some pictures of you and saw like your video of you making tea and they're like yeah aiden he's just like you he's just not as good looking oh i'm sure they said that no no that was legitimately one of the comments that was made yeah yeah it was awesome wait i wasn't even in that video i wasn't my face wasn't even no your face wasn't in that video but i made sure to back it up with a photograph of you so that way they would know that i'm that i am related to you but that you are like the uh you know um i'm the better verse hey did you okay did you do you did you do your cutting around the all the trim and everything uh no my my uh my boss david did that because i'm a noob at painting and uh yeah i wouldn't trust myself to do that otherwise i would have to tape it first and that would take more time so yeah so don't judge me basically i can give you i can give you one tip right now all right go ahead put more paint on the roller then you put more paint on the roller how does that sound why'd you let him in on this uh this conversation this is uh this is gonna just happen this is this is really gonna flounder yeah no no no just let's just ignore him and he'll work he'll work and we'll talk and he'll listen he'll keep did you catch david's um comments on uh the jesus i caught his comments on uh remembering a buttload of prayers and everything following okay that's good yeah right it says that's a that's a good way to look at it saying jc in a derogatory way and then turning that into the prayer of jesus yeah yeah and then flowing with it so did you know uh i invited matthew murdoch and i sent him the link and he might join us if he gets home from whatever yeah wow that's awesome he emailed me and uh i guess you guys haven't talked to him in a couple of weeks or months weeks or months yeah it's been a while it's been a while shut up aiden okay fair enough so uh yeah that would be exciting i don't know he's been emailing me like once per month kind of thing like over the past two or three months and so how's it going i'm hoping i don't know anything i don't know anything he's just like hey i've been thinking about you and uh we should catch up and it never happens so i think he's probably busy and uh but let's hope that we can have a group chat sometime i'd like to get um nick stumphouser on here too you guys have met him right now oh yeah yeah it's awesome i haven't met nick no he's no i actually i don't know if i met him either i might have spoken with him via email but um okay yeah i don't think i actually talked with him put more but i would definitely be definitely down for that yeah so let's get back to the religious content so um humility uh just a real quick recap of what you just said before your brother came in sorry oh i said that you you were saying that satan's confounded by humility and i said that when you use humility um uh in moments of sinfulness you actually take the sin that you just committed and then you weaponize it against itself and you make it into a greater good and that's probably like the component of it that really confuses satan um because you have this opportunity to take whatever he's throwing at you and uh and use it for for good yeah and that would actually probably make him rage if anything else and you know which makes me very happy you know uh speaking of speaking of humility leading to happiness um i'm trying because i've been sort of mildly slash moderately depressed over the past two years because of covet and different things in my family and whatever um and because of not having access to the sacraments and stuff like that it's just like weakened me spiritually and you and i have talked we've talked privately about stuff like that but anyway um one thing i read i think it was saint alphonsus liguri and many other saints probably talked about how we need to have a simple a simplicity in front of god with our sins and we have to have always joy like the saints always had joy even if it made suffering and whatever sorrow for sin they always had joy so we need to have this joy and i think uh my goal as a christian is to use that as a litmus test like do i have the joy of christ if not then basically i'm sort of still enslaved by satan and so the the litmus test is to have the freedom to have the joy because when you feel bad about your weakness or your sinfulness because i've been more i've been more sinful this past two years than i was the previous 10 years combined um when you feel heavy when you feel sad when you feel guilty when you feel depressed when you feel all these things that's not the christian way that's not the christian way it's not and it's pride it's pride because he said oh how could i fall or how could i turn to eat my vomit like a dog you know like this this idea like it always comes back to me like i'm like a dog i'm just like a disgusting beast and i have no self-control and just you know worm and i'm just a faithless sinner and all this sort of thing and this sort of uh self-deprecation it's okay to a certain extent as long as you maintain your joy but when it becomes like a a toxic self-hatred or some kind of um darkness that's that's an indication that it's prideful and you need to remember like hey like that like uh saint teresa of avila said i think uh she said look this is what i do like when she would sin and her sins were nothing compared to mine but when she would sin she'd say to god this is this is what i do this is what i'm capable of this is what i bring to the table right so if you want more of that god then just continue to let me be me but if you want me to be christ-like then you need to you need to come and take the wheel as the protestants would say jesus take the wheel you know take control and let your will be done because if it's going to be my will it's going to be done this is what you get right this is what you get every time so it's a sort of like a simple um matter of fact statement that this is what i bring to the table nothing but ugliness sin selfishness whatever and i acknowledge that you already know that because you're god you know everything but like hey can we go back to where i'm in a state of grace and where i'm doing your will that would be great you know i mean that sort of matter of fact thing and um not getting heavy about the fact that oh my god like uh like over dramatizing dramatizing the what you bring to the table or pretending like you know suddenly um it's no longer the case because if i look back at my own personal history with sin it's like i was sort of sinning as a an atheist or whatever you want to call me for most of my adult life and then i had my conversion and then i had a lot of graces and i wasn't sinning as much and then with the past two years i started sort of reverting back to like a dog eating my vomit to a certain extent and i don't like it but the the displeasure and the heaviness is pride and if i were just like a saint i would just in a very clean clear matter-of-fact way say well yes of course this is what i do on my own without you without the sacraments and without a proper prayer life so i just want you to uh give your two cents on that i know it was a very rambling and sloppy portrayal of the the saints words and ideas but uh did you get the message what i'm talking about i did um and i would like to say that like i don't like the word more when it comes to like analyzing like our own sinfulness because i don't know if we have the vantage point necessary to say like oh yeah i'm sinning more because the uh the context has changed so like the longer you go uh like you know the the longer your walk is the more that you've been involved with your face things start to shift and there's less um less cookie and more and more you know more coal basically so like like you're not getting consolations you're not getting certain things like you did certain graces things just aren't handed to us after a while so like objectively you can say yeah i'm committing more of this sin and it's like well yeah maybe you've been committing more of that sin but the circumstances around it are that you've been um you've been here for a while and you've had a chance to like let like the fire die a little bit things cool down and so um you're not getting rewarded you're not getting rewarded in the same way so maybe that merit maybe how you're behaving now maybe your um maybe your responses to it are actually more uh beautiful in the eyes of the lord um compared to like when you first converted and you were sinning less and and and like being oriented towards holiness or or whatever you want to say um because you know uh it wasn't as it wasn't as difficult for you it was it was you know more god and less yeah you know less david the the image that comes to mind as you're speaking there is of the the little child i don't know how old but very uncoordinated helping uh his father or let's say mother okay helping the mother to make supper like to make the salad to cut the vegetables into or to make a cake or whatever it is um i'm just using this image because it's easy to understand how a child would make a mess in the kitchen we could use the image we could use the image in the work shed too of the boy helping his father to build a shelf or something but i like the cooking analogy best because it's not really not a big deal like if he makes a mess in the kitchen and like it's um you can still salvage the meal kind of thing and the parent knows the parent knows that the child is not ready to be an adult and to cook a proper meal but it's just training and um when the mother is holding the wooden spoon with the child and holding the hand of the child to make the stirring motion and the cake turned out beautifully and then the next time she sort of lets him stir on his own and add the ingredients on his own and he makes a big mess of everything and puts salt instead of sugar and whatever like the mother just smiles right because she knows there's no real harm done he's learning and uh it would just be it would just be prideful for that child to throw a tantrum when he realizes he's not like a michelin star chef yeah right karen what do you think um there's a so the one thing that david said uh i don't know if he was just talking about the saints in general but there's one saint i think of the russian church who said that um you know we shouldn't think that we're so sinful that god can't save us but we also shouldn't think that we're saints uh basically those two extremes are a delusion and rather we should say to ourselves that i'm a sinner but god loves me and i place my trust in my hope in him and so when i make a mistake i go to christ in his mercy and cain and panikiya will take care of it that's it nice uh kieran i got i got a notification that uh google meet only gives me one hour and it's been uh 48 minutes so quickly i want to get your take from the from the greek orthodox perspective um as you know as you know my wife is uh culturally greek orthodox and she is very very very sympathetic to uh the russians in the whole situation in europe with the ukraine she's very sympathetic and she showed me a couple of videos of uh greek orthodox priests and stuff like that she's very sympathetic and i tend to agree with her like i think i'm not naive enough to think that they're free from corruption or abortion or anything else in in the east but i do think that the people in the east do hate the corruption of the west and they don't want the corruption of the west can you just talk about that from an orthodox perspective okay so there's two splits so if yeah if you want to go if you want to go the greek route largely speaking and i belong to the greek church that's where i was received into the church in that jurisdiction but just keep in mind like i could go wherever i wanted but basically the greek church on the ground is very traditional but through the patriarchate and through the um the bishopric the greek church is typically more liberalized than any other than any other jurisdiction um so in terms of like i was at i was chanting at a pan orthodox vespers on saturday and um you know you could you could you could feel some like well i won't say too much but anyway there's there's a lot of opinion in the greek church about siding with uh ukraine and for us like what i say about it is that the geopolitics are very complicated and there's a lot we're not being there's a lot that we're being lied to about um and there's also a lot of prophetic words from the greek saints like saint paulios saint porphyrios a whole bunch of other saints basically who have said that russia is going to be the instrument of god's judgment yep to the west and um i totally i i fall in line with that position because um yeah putin's not a i don't agree with putin is but at the same time if we're looking at zielinski or any of the other presidents of the ukraine um that have been set up you know since to to now basically um it's all been cia run and it's uh really messy so they're they're what they're trying to do i mean russia basically said hey we have one stipulation you're taking all these countries around us and you're putting them into nato and you're trying to get them to join the eu ukraines where we draw our line don't push into ukraine don't have them join etc etc and that's the one thing that the us poked and said well we're gonna do that anyhow so all i know is that we're being lied to about a lot and the other thing is that patriarch uh kirill uh the the moscow patriarch he's not innocent either he should have condemned putin's actions in in invading quote because if you look at it in that sense it is technically an invasion though again i'm sympathetic um but he's been condemned by other uh russian bishops he's been not not condemned in the sense of like it's taken out of the diptychs not not being commemorated during liturgy stuff like that um so basically i see this as like another excuse for people to be russophobic and to uh trash on it's it's basically the cold war all over again um i just wanted to i wanted to emphasize more of the prophecies and from god's point of view the wrath of god and like king cyrus being used as an instrument of god in the old testament well well we've we've i mean look at ukraine now they're like number three in the world or whatever for stuff that i won't say but with children um okay that comes that comes that comes directly from the west and now we see the two one of the two biggest sins of the west number one would probably be abortion and the the second one would be pornography but yeah yeah um just in general just uh wait wait wait disgusting uh sexual exploitation google watches for keywords uh it's it's because it's the youtube i'm sure david will be fine because it's just small yeah yeah yeah i'm a small potato yeah um so how do you talk about it too but okay i was just like well how do you talk anyways so you have these two you have these two big things i'm rambling now but you have these two big you have these two big sins and uh for all the bad that russia has done and being aggressive or whatever um they you have to admit that since the fall of communism they have been a bulwark for the christian faith particularly in orthodoxy and their revitalization of not only our generation of people who are now spiritually inclined but also the east as a as a whole whether it's russia ukraine georgia all these countries they're now so traditionally minded that they won't even allow something like um a pride parade to go on so like that's important like that's really important stuff but of course because the west we would see that as something evil now even christians and uh heterodox christians within the west are seeing russia is completely evil even though they do all these really christian things so it's the whole thing is confusing and i mean like i said multiple saints have said um you know that russia would be the instrument of god's judgment basically yeah did y'all hear that pope francis is uh consecrating russia no way to to the immaculate no way yeah oh no way yep wow are you serious wow russia and ukraine wow when i don't know there was just an announcement today wow amazing i have to i have i have to ask like what is okay so like from the catholic perspective like because russia is not going to be like russia would not recognize that i'm just i would just be straight up now because we like the orthodox would look at that as um as uh heart worship basically we would look at it as like a form of nestorianism so like if russia is not receptive to being consecrated to the immaculate heart ukraine probably would be because there's lots of catholics in ukraine but russia not so much what's the like how does that play out in terms of fatima and all that kind of stuff if russia's not receptive to it doesn't matter um i don't know how i don't know if it works like that so like i don't know yeah um because are there are there russian catholics yeah yeah yeah very very tiny amount but yes um yeah i don't i don't really know like what this like i i don't understand how like i don't i don't know what the significance i guess would be because and fatima it was originally interpreted that russia would be converted to catholicism but when when sovietism you know um fell um and they saw that orthodoxy was having a revival within the russian church and the previous soviet bloc altogether um catholic theologians started reinterpreting it as well no they're just going back to orthodoxy but somehow that's what fatima meant all along and now this is not convinced of that there's debate among among even yeah among catholics you know what that means you know conversion to orthodoxy conversion to catholicism um yeah i don't know it's i don't know to be honest i'm not i'm not as interested in that stuff anymore as i used to be i guess but like i would think that it would be at least somewhat important that russia would get on that that russia would be on board with the consecration to be i don't think that's that that's how it works because the pope has has consecrated um the entire world um to to the immaculate heart and like consecrated different like countries to different things so i think it's just i mean he didn't like hey hey world is that cool he just did it well well if the entire world has already been consecrated then how come russia needs to be consecrated is our lady to be consecrated by name i don't i don't know who are you to question god wow that's that's under the presupposition that the pope speaks for god no we're talking about the apparition of our lady we're not talking about the pope oh well that's that's also operating under the presupposition that the apparition of our lady was yeah you don't have to you don't have to accept the apparition even we as catholics don't have to accept the apparition right be kind of foolish not yeah so if if it were if it were something that were demonically influenced for uh let's say what would be what would be the pitfall in my believing in it or not believing in it well i guess would be the question because um the question was your question was your question was um who are you to question god and my i'm saying that i don't presuppose that the apparition was legitimate so i don't think i'm questioning god well even even catholics are not obliged to believe that the apparitions are legitimate so it's kind of a moot point but i mean if i if i had a muslim and a jew come into my home and say individually in their own religious way i bless you and i ask the blessings of god to be upon you and your household and i want god to protect your household i would welcome that i would never question that i would i would celebrate that i would thank them i would add them to my permanent daily prayer list i would have nothing but gratitude and positive things to say to them and i would consider them my friends because they're helping me to get to heaven by bringing the blessings of god onto me and my household okay so that if i'm if i have that attitude attitude toward other monotheistic religions that aren't even christian imagine how i would feel as an orthodox about the pope of catholicism blessing uh bringing this blessing on the world by fulfilling uh what is ostensibly uh an apparition of our lady making a request right i would always see that as a positive thing always just like jesus said well just like jesus said if uh was it jesus who said it or was it saint paul who said uh as long as the name of christ is preached doesn't matter if it's for good reasons or bad right what was what did saint paul say read the bible whether they're with us is for whether they're with us or for us christ is being preached but the thing i i get what you're saying the sentiment is essentially that this person has a personal belief and they are wishing blessings upon me and how can that be a good thing and i would say on i would say on i would say on a personal level yes uh absolutely that person is is uh there's so many more pious muslims than there are christians probably yeah um but i but i would say that again um doctrine does matter and so like if we're talking about this on on the sacramental scale if we're talking about this on a global scale um and and also even on a let's just say a liturgical scale we would we sure it's it's one thing to have a muslim come into your home and say hey i'm going to pray for you yeah um and you could take that as one thing but it's a totally different thing to say you know uh we can pray together or um you know this is all basically um this is all good we don't need to actually hash out the differences so like we would never we would we we would never want to be confused i guess in those in those terms of like okay um this is a good thing that that other that catholics are seeing is a good thing and maybe pope francis has good intentions but um no thank you we don't believe in that so like he can do it but again like it would be something that we would we would say yeah it doesn't really mean anything because we don't number one it's not christ it's talking about uh the theotokos and number two it's the it's the immaculate heart which we don't affirm it's a it's a real big dip in theology there's a big uh chasm in that area so he's free to do it i suppose but uh i would say her heart is the flesh of christ i hope you realize that right her heart is the flesh of christ every every piece of her flesh is the flesh is the same flesh it's one flesh with christ i hope you do realize that it's the same flesh it's the same flesh it's the same flesh it's not a hard concept it's the same flesh mary's flesh is christ's flesh it's the same flesh i would like to think about that more yeah that mary was mary was mary was stretched wider than the heavens in order to be able to contain god the word within her womb and certainly she bore the savior of our souls but she bore christ in his human nature yeah his devi his divine personage was not difficult no but i'm not talking i think here one of the videos you sent to me was a was a monk talking about why the why god listens to mary um and her requests and it's because he borrowed a body and borrowed blood from her so like again yeah and and that's fine to say that it's ontologically the same i would have to look into more i don't know if that's accurate to say that and and number two um all of this again is operating off the presupposition that that that this is actually coming from the theotokos right right that fat amounts coming from that and i just i just don't i'm not convinced of that right but i'm not trying to be difficult yeah yeah yeah no problem but i'm just i i'm shocked and horrified that anyone would take exception with any honor that's prayed that's given to the blessed virgin mary any honor there's no honor that's too much honor and there's no praise that's too much praise other than saying that she's god she's not god she's a creature but other than saying that she's god almighty there's no praise that's too much praise there's no there's no attribution that's too much i don't think i don't think it's a matter of praise i think it's a matter of of splitting things i think it's a matter of splitting things up the whole notion again of immaculate heart and isolating that from any other particular part of the theotokos would be something we've just it's totally foreign to eastern orthodoxy so again i don't want to i'm not an authority i wouldn't want to speak and say yeah this is totally i would just say that classically speaking if you were to read like vladimir lawsky or any of the the contemporary theologians of our church they would categorically reject any type of heart fixation whether it's with christ or it's with the theotokos we just don't have that within our paradigm so that's why the problem of consecration to the immaculate heart in and of itself would be a problem right off the bat for us yeah and why russia why russia would just probably not be well not probably they would not be receptive to it i mean just based on that but you know what the thing is um blessings don't yeah the more that i think about it um they don't need to be it's not a blessing it's not a blessing it's it's a consecration it's a consecration different it's different yeah yeah and consecration is saying we're invoking the grace of god it naturally entails that and so again we would that would that would be difficult for us to affirm when you consecrate the host it's done by the grace the uncreated energies of god and so you're now saying that the immaculate heart this doctrine is on the same part as something like consecrating the bread and wine into the body and blood of jesus christ and i just personally can't affirm that no no it's not it's not it's not a consecration in that sense in that technical sense of the eucharist the consecration it's not you know you're conflating the two notions like when uh when i consecrate myself uh have you never consecrated yourself to jesus or to mary karen uh i mean not not consciously i i have my i have my um my dedication through christ i suppose so like hey christ uh you know jesus i try and pray to you every day i try and and devote myself to you and make every waking moment about you i suppose you could call that a consecration but as far as formally saying hey i consecrate myself to the body and blood or i consecrate myself to the immaculate heart like there's no there's real there's no notion of that within um you know that consecration it's a very precise term it's a very precise term uh we have tauntering too so you could be tortured into something you could be conscious of reader you could be i guess in a sense consecrated to that to that particular duty that particular instantiation of your walk with christ but um yeah it's not something that i don't think that you would undertake yourself apart from what your spiritual father says hey here's your prayer roll try and live by this just do that kind of thing you know what i mean i don't know if i'm making sense i'll let your brother respond while i search youtube i was actually looking at you david because i was wondering what you were uh what you were typing so like i heard some words i'm like those words are too big i don't care i don't know what he's saying the consecration i'm reading wikipedia here the consecration of russia to the immaculate heart of mary by a specific act of a reigning pope along with all other catholic bishops of the world was allegedly ordered in a marian apparition by our lady of fatima in 13 july 1917. consecration of russia as a country would usher in a period of world peace um see and that makes that gives me pause too because when they say peace and safety than war and destruction so i i mean if i'm being honest like the the whole idea it says that um if you like if you just read what you just said there basically um can you reread that that first couple lines that you said there the consequence of something the consecration i'm sorry yeah so the bishops the catholic bishops and the standing pope that that it's a very basic principle it's a very basic thing and i should have said it already but obviously we do believe in the pope we do think that there's a pope we think that there's such thing as catholicity of bishops but we don't believe that like the catholic church affirms the orthodox uh apostolic succession it says we have valid sacraments via apostolic succession yeah but we would just we would say we would not give the same courtesy unfortunately with the catholic church and so right off the bat again it's another presupposition that we just wouldn't affirm based upon the idea that he has no authority in our paradigm the pope has zero authority in our paradigm at this point unless he repents and comes back and says hey i'm gonna renounce all these heresies and hey uh here the news the news appears in the wikipedia article it says pope francis announced he would consecrate russia and ukraine to the immaculate heart of mary on 25 march 2022 at st peter's basilica in rome wow a consecration ceremony is also scheduled in fatima portugal by the papal elminar cardinal conrad krajewski wow i'm i'm very excited i'm very excited and uh aidan how do you feel about that uh actually it makes me ask a bunch of questions so like sister lucia i think she said that she said it was completed yeah she did and so um part of me wonders why like pope francis who seemingly hasn't really had any kind of um like spiritual gusto or he hasn't had it he hasn't all of a sudden he's you know like uh to quote to quote my uncle like lacking in spiritual balls in a lot of ways um not nice i know david um but uh why all of a sudden he's just well i remember saying you remember saint paul before his conversion yeah yeah fiery one way and then he was firing the exact okay so you're saying you can't be fiery communist antichrist authentic for fiery i think i'm just kidding i'm kidding i'm kidding i'm kidding yes i know you are but come on come on david okay can i just ask one question before the time's out yes okay before they drop the news okay so in not not tasteful not tasteful so in the book of revelation when it says that the antichrist will usher in peace and safety and the false prophet will come and he will he will announce his coming et cetera et cetera says that if it were possible even the very elect would be deceived yeah can you imagine a situation in which oh my gosh we're on the brink of world war three yeah pope francis comes in consecrates russia and ukraine now all of a sudden peace is is shouted and then we have pope francis working with somebody else in tandem and people are just like oh my gosh he's he's now just redeemed his entire pontificate because let's be honest even though you look at him as infallible when speaking ex cathedra he still has had a very shaky and rocky you know last years he would redeem himself in one shot and people would be like oh my gosh he just brought in peace and safety and all this stuff and there would be so many catholics that would be like okay that was really good that he did that all these people that have been like okay like on on the verge kind of like aiden cause i know aidan's a little on the verge where he's like um i question things with this guy i question things and um lord forgive me for blowing up his spot but like those are things where it's like doesn't that make you question at all like okay it is possible maybe it's possible that the pope could be either of the false prophet or uh usher in a false arab everything is manufactured nowadays too karen to be honest with you though my mind didn't go there with that my mind didn't go oh i know your mind is i know i even with the couf everything was manufactured and lied and i would say that ninety percent of it yeah even with night with ninety 90 of what we're being told about this war in ukraine it's probably mostly a lie so like if that's the case if most of it is probably not even trustworthy to begin with then like how much does peace and security even mean if it comes i want to say i want to say something in my own defense which is i'm excited i'm going to remain excited about the consecration no matter what you say do it and and don't listen to me and also i have a lot of checks and balances in my faith whereby i can recognize a wolf in sheep's clothing okay um there are many many checks and balances and litmus tests that i do like you know we just go down the list like abortion contraception uh unrepentant homosexual acts um you know all the time all the ten all the ten commandments like i mean the traditional the traditional the traditional all of the traditional teachings about family sexuality and uh that sort of stuff uh contraception all these things are litmus tests for uh jesus christ versus antichrist okay and divorce divorce pornography all these sort of things like it's so obvious satan can't help himself even when he tries to pretend to be a christian like with a cult leader like david crash or whoever there's always sexuality sneaks in there always or corruption with money or corruption with whatever okay so it's i don't i don't want to be proud and say that it's easy to recognize the antichrist at work in the world but it's pretty easy it's pretty easy right like i know i love you david i love you but that's literally the vatican that's what all of those things that you just said the vatican has indulged in time and time again i suppose but it's easier something that that even that even an atheist can look at and be like oh i know for a fact that like this person this dude is doing this evil thing like discernment comes from the holy spirit if you don't have the holy spirit then how do you have true discernment so like if a person from the outside who has no relation to christ whatsoever can look at the vatican and be like what they're doing is wrong like what does that really even say like that doesn'

CVS Live Guest - 2022-05-10 - Nikola and Aidan

so i am live i'm here all by my lonesome and we're going to see if anyone shows up it's supposed to be a group chat between myself aiden lisney and nicola krisik so we'll see i'll share the link right in the chat does this work right in the uh live chat so we'll see it's like herding cats trying to get these people uh together because i don't think the time zone thing is a big big issue but it's just uh schedules getting the schedules to match up but it is 9 00 p.m they both said they're in i know uh what it's like on a weekday evening things happen so they may or may not show up we'll see right now i'll just chit chat to kill the time i'm excited i'm very excited to be working on the archives the archives of cvs i've got some pre-recorded audio only episodes i think you've seen on my website i've published some of them um i'm working on right now i'm working on kieran kieran part two so maybe i'll show you how can i do this can i do this maybe i'll show you makes it easier if i just show you so you can see karen park sorry aiden part one aiden lisney part one down here that was recorded on june 23 2019 and oh lo and behold hey speaking of speak of the devil i was just talking about you we're actually live already no way um who's joining who's who's in nicola oh that's awesome supposed to be but uh did you get my do you check your emails regularly or yeah it did um did you get my most recent email i guess he did because there's a link in it right yeah it just said group chat click link right yeah yeah yeah yeah but there was one just before that i don't know if i included you in it where uh nicola is like oh nobody likes me and it's not happening and whatever i'm like no aidan's in i mean i'm in nathan's in what are we chop liver i mean you need kieran what do you need is he the cool ultimate cool kid kieran and who's the other one oh well matthew murdock that would be cool but he always comes back like two days later oh i just got the invitation if you have his phone number text him right now live okay hold on wait where's nicola uh well that's the thing he's like he's like oh no one likes me but uh i emailed him i said no we're we're in we're doing this um so let's see well the first email said i think i couldn't see who is sending emails because he doesn't he doesn't know how to hit reply to all so he always replies to me maybe i did that i don't think you did that by the way is this centered appropriately because you're always supporting me you could scoot towards me a tiny bit wait can you see me on your screen yeah i can see your can you see me are we sideways are we side by each on your no i see like a big if you see a big david and a small ayden oh okay so you can move to your uh left live chat you're left sorry i was texting matt murdock yep yeah baby guess what guess what i was doing just before we met here on this live chat i don't want to guess [Laughter] i was editing aiden lisney part two from 2019 you have a part two pre-recorded audio only interview that i never published and i'm oh i've never edited it it's just sitting there with a whole bunch of other archives holy cow it's like i was so excited to discover that i was gonna go in and do a matthew murdock episode because i know i've got a bunch of his but i'm like hey what else have i called they sell i said what else have i got in here and it's like holy cow i got an aiden lizzy like that's funny dude i didn't i mean we've talked so many times that it's like i don't realize it there i guess it makes sense that there's like enough times that it would be archived but and it's good it's good it's exciting it's like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah this is about when you're on fire for your faith like you really believed and i'm just kidding but but no but i i was in a much better place like that's the that's the embarrassing thing it's like i really went downhill uh uh christmas of uh 2019 and we all didn't want to say anything to you we're like ah uh we call you lukewarm david when we're referring to you it's horrible it's horrible just i went through such a rough time but i'm coming back i'm coming back who's on your shirt it's the comeback these are some rock band i have no idea the reason i like this shirt is it doesn't look good but it is extremely thin and lightweight and it is long so i love it's not so much that i love tucking my shirts in but i hate not being able to tuck my shirt in i hate when you tuck a shirt in and then part of it like part of it gets untucked and your belly is exposed first world problems yeah definitely dude but i didn't picture you as the type that would like to tuck their shirt in anyway i feel like you'd be like a t-shirt jeans my shirt my shirt is not tucked in right now because okay because you're not wearing pants i don't have to take i don't have to tuck my shirt in but i have to have the option of tucking it in you understand so i have to be able to tuck it in like when i sleep at night i wear uh pajamas well i'm actually not wearing pajamas and i'm wearing shorts because it's actually hot here for the first time yeah but anyway quick what's hot for you what's what is hot right now 60 degrees it's like 65. uh let me see right now it's 20 but it feels like 30. so celsius celsius okay okay 68 feels like yeah what's the real feel the real feel is only the i don't know but um yeah okay today it got up to uh 30 for realsies like it was up to 30 i think if i'm reading this correctly what is 30 degrees is that like one like close to 100 fahrenheit i lied no i didn't didn't today it only got up to 24. uh let's ch check 30. hold on c in f that would be 86 is that good 87 yeah that's hot it was around 88 today here i want to say oh yeah yeah it's 73 right now so it was a hot one mowing the lawn do you have oh yeah do you have a nicola crisix phone number that way you can text shoot him a text i don't i don't if i did wait so were you were you chatting with him were you chatting with him and then he just emailed all disappointed that it's not happening i said yeah it is happening buddy let me he's maybe he's chicken [�__�] he's backing out no i don't know tell him to join because i really i just listened to i just watched your chat with him okay um we could just in the meantime we can kill time and uh you can tell me what you thought of kieran's thing with brenda brenda's interview with me i listened to if you listen to any of it so i listened to like two minutes of brenda's thing yeah um and then i got distracted because like you know um you know easily just easily distracted um as illustrated by that um no but i saw on the sidebar like there was a conversation between brenda and um matt murdock and i'm like oh i wanna check that out and so then i listened to like six or seven minutes of that and then um from there i saw the so bad i saw the illustration that you put for kieran's little thing with the with jesus and the church fathers and that was the church fathers those were the holy innocents that were slaughtered oh is that what that was yeah that's more fitting um he told me karen told me to do that he told me to do that so i can't did he really he said that would be a great image for that yeah that is it it's really good well it pulled me right and also seeing the lisney name i'm just as um you know narcissistic enough to see something that mildly pulls me into it and i'm like oh well that's kind of like me did you like that i put the music yeah i did i did i thought kieran i thought kieran like sent that to you to be honest with you i was like i thought kieran out of the music i didn't even mention it to him i just did it without his position and like because you told me you kind of told me that you'd like to see that everywhere so yeah i want to see that anytime there's a technical difficulty you just put you just put that chant we should put it now like waiting for nicola he hasn't shown up i think that would be very appropriate but yeah just just waiting dead silence and then music well we could like break out our smartphones and just like not look at each other and just do like scrolling and whatever like both of us on the screen well that would be fun that'd be good get a lot of hits for that the kids like that these days they do narrating games as well they can really dude so totally unrelated but not really because it's it's catholic um i watched uh the exorcist today um the original one the original one and uh rachel came in at one point she was watching because it was just the the handsome father uh charis you know he was he was chatting and uh and then all of a sudden close up with linda blair and he was like oh that's disgusting why are you watching this and i'm like it's not that scary she's just like that's that's not why you don't like just don't watch it it's terrible i'm like nah it's good so i watched the the full thing i started it the other day and i finished it today and i was like that wasn't that was actually from what what i've read about it i thought it was a surprisingly sober take on exorcism obviously there were like a couple of things that um like that you read about where you're like okay so obviously the length of time that one that like deliverance ministry takes it's longer and it's like it's more played out like a couple other things were exaggerated but other than that i thought oh that's actually a pretty appropriate um i didn't think it was scandalous to be honest with you i mean people always go to like the whole crucifix um scene where she sexually stabs her junk yeah and they call it the crucifix you know masturbation and i didn't even i'm just like okay it was horribly it was a horrible desecration but it was so violent that there was nothing there was nothing pleasurable pleasurable about it wasn't intimidating it wasn't to no no everybody says it kind of talks about it like it's like horror porn but i didn't get that at all i was like oh this is actually a surprisingly catholic um film that um kids should definitely not see but i thought it um i thought it was uh um from all the books that i've read about exorcism and i've read i've read a couple um and those are usually the only books that i can actually start start and finish um because i you know darkness we love darkness more than than the light but um but i was like oh no that actually seems to be like dead on and it was in my mind kind of a triumph because minus the fact that there wasn't there should have been a little bit more jesus in it but it was it was a triumph in my mind because they had this mainstream success where they had the two hero priests um like they both died but they both died the manliest death ever in service to somebody else and um gave this honest portrayal of um uh you know um demonic attack they didn't show too much weakness uh in the face of the satan and the demons no i didn't well the well the one dude was father karis the the one who flings himself out the window he was definitely not smart in the way that he handled uh the demon but um the one who died of the heart attack the older the older one he was like the experienced exorcist and obviously priests don't go like you know jumping out windows during most exorcisms and most of the time it's the level of danger is not you know on par with that because obviously they had to make it like good for the movies but um but yeah i thought that they handled it well they went in there they faced their fears they showed what true men were they were um chased in the face of sexual obscenity um they were caring they were compassionate there was just something really cool about that about seeing a couple of catholic men um like come in there and you know act in the name of their faith without flinching and then they sold that to a mainstream audience which is like you know how often does that happen i watched it in the 70s i know it was the 70s because i was still living in my childhood house and we moved when i was just turning uh from nine to ten so i know i was uh nine years old or younger and i know uh that it was the seventies um because in 1980 i turned 10. so um it came out probably in the mid to late 70s right but 73 oh yeah okay so it's been a while since i've seen it that's my point that's my only point here so what is so you saw when you were a kid but you haven't seen it as an adult i it i don't think i've seen it as an adult i may have seen it once or just like without paying attention like normally when i watch a movie i can't not pay attention i'm laser focused on if i like it or if i don't like it i'm just laser focused my only solution is to turn it off because i can't not look at it i'm raised on the television so i'm like hypnotized by the television no matter what right so um if i don't like it i just have to shut it off or change the channel or just do something but it can't be on in the room and i can't ignore it um so i may have caught glimpses of it or watched parts of it or whatever but i don't think as an adult that i've watched it partly because it did freak me out as a child like it did freak me out um but i think since converting like 12 years ago i think i must have at least played with the idea of watching it again and now i'm thinking maybe i will watch it again but you should fast forward through the nastier bits maybe i just didn't look directly at stuff like during a certain day because not really there's no nudity there's no puking um yeah no no because she does like stab herself in the vagina with a close effect that's the most disturbing thing yeah and then like makes obscene gestures and says horrible things towards her mom and towards the people around but i mean again it's not um it's not gratuitous yeah it's not like you don't see that and think like oh yeah like my worst fear a couple years ago um during uh we i had to uh what was it i had to um kind of dissect a cat and my teacher was like aidan come over you're gonna break his chest and all i could think was like i hope i don't like this i hope this doesn't lock unlock those cat titties no i mean i didn't you know like some kind of weird just like gee the sound of their bones breaking was great actually i yeah you know what i mean something like that yeah you know but um but no when you when you watch it you're just it's not um not a turn on it's not a turn on though it's it's it's more like you can watch it with a catholic filter and bike you're like oh that's um that's par for the course is she is she uh a good catholic girl in between her uh bouts of disgusting grossness no they're a religious um and that's the interesting that's the interesting thing about it the mom um is an actress um seemingly good family i think they're divorced daughter they even show the origins of it too she like at the beginning of the movie they like a ouija board and they're like hey where'd you find this like oh i found it in the house and she's like showing her mom how to do it she's like yeah new house yeah they're staying in a house because they're acting in a film oh okay and so i think that they're having a house built for them and they're staying in this nice house but they were affluent enough rich enough that they have like people working for them and um so mom and daughter they hired satan to babysit the kid for example basically yeah yeah no no but i mean it always starts out this way and that's the other cool thing is that it's like informative because they pull out a ouija board and she's just like how does that work and she's like oh mr howdy talks to me and uh like shows her mom how how she does it and um and it's just like clearly the lesson is always if you have a ouija board just throw it away like i don't know like but i guess it wasn't a cliche back when that film was made like you know um that you don't that you don't touch a ouija board but i don't know if you've ever seen the shirt in hot topic they have these like awesome like 50s decals of like these kids like um you know how they have like like dennis the menace type of cartoons where there's a kid like playing with a yo-yo or pulling his wagon well it's a bunch of kids sitting around a ouija board and just says let's summon demons and it's like a joke but i mean like obviously that's the only like logical conclusion of using a ouija board now anybody that would use it you know um like have no excuse uh well that's the whole state of that territory the satanic panic was like the 80s it really kicked off where they're talking about the ritual sexual abuse and all that sort of thing sure um so in the 70s i mean i think it was less um as you were saying it was sort of less on the radar of the general pop culture so uh i don't know who the director was was it ridley scott or someone or no it was no maybe that was the author i don't know who the director was but the director now the writer of it was his last name was blatty but i can't i can't really remember because the guy um because i i think maybe if i'm correct the the director was also the author because it was a book first um hold on william friedkin friedkin oh okay william friedkin yeah music by johnny written by yeah so william peter blatty was the author and um i don't know if friedkin was a catholic i know the author obviously was but um sounds jewish to me you can be jewish and catholic that's true that is true uh i'm just looking at his wikipedia thing here his parents were jewish immigrants from ukraine cool so i was right no mention of christianity uh eggs or cysts so he's best known for the exorcist and the french connection and the funny thing is like with those movies um the people involved in them uh like you think that you hear more conversion yeah you know stories come about from them because it's like weird stuff apparently happened on the set of that film and um you know people died after filming it and i think we're injured like the one of the gentlemen um who played a director in the movie um that was his last film um he died right after making it he died in the movie his character dies in the movie and then he died after making it um i think linda blair the woman who played um reagan the main character she didn't get work for the longest time because nobody wanted to hire the she was taking that girl she was typing she was yeah and for yeah i mean kind of like a if you play jesus you're you're never going to work that guy converted right that guy converted from uh yeah no he was already a catholic he was already a catholic he just underwent a deepening conversion i believe so i mean who wouldn't i mean i guess joaquin phoenix didn't after he played jesus but was he catholic to begin with who yeah no no actually he was involved in a uh christian cult in south america um uh the children of god or something like that are you serious yeah so his his uh i read um river phoenix's one of his biographies and um it spoke about them uh living in south america they uh they lived in one of those like weird hippie commune jesus groups which eventually uh disbanded because of the um widespread uh sexual abuse that occurred and um but they used to do like a lot of busking that's how they like learned how to be entertainers they used to like play um fishy music i think they called it fishy flirting or something like that what's fishy flirty that's when the sexy young members of the children of god would go out and bust and flirt with people to bring them into the cult we just watched a documentary about it a month or two ago and it was very disturbing very disturbing especially since uh one of my wife's best friends belonged to that cult as a child and really the family still belongs to it um yeah i won't mention too many details so no one can connect the dots but yeah it's uh it may have mellowed out a little bit by the time this guy was born because he was i think he was born in the 80s or something or in the 90s or something young younger guy but uh yeah the the the cult leader was quite sick i mean as most cult leaders are we've been watching a lot of these cult documentaries there's a rather boring documentary about a weight loss christian cult okay called way down and the w-a-y but the cult was called way down w-e-i-g-h or however you spell whey and uh you know she was an evangelical oh oh is that on hbo yeah it's really badly done hey you need to shave your chin so you just have the um goatee no not even a goatee you need to have a fu manchu you could be like google burdello um who's this uh turn your lights off nicola yeah show the beauty you got it flaunt it man i used to i used to turn your mic away from your mouth it's too loud you're too loud and too sexy oh yeah you know what hold on whisper to us whisper to us in your sexy voice okay hold on yeah so how's it going thank you for calling hold on okay is that a little better or still loud it's good still alive no you're good how about now that's better how do you like me now better how you like yeah aiden we tried three times to get uh the video with uh nicola and one of the times his audio stopped working so i was over dubbing him with an indian accent as his lips moved i wish i kept that i wish i kept it it was so funny but it was also very racist racially insensitive that's excellent yeah i i wonder how that would have looked on the video that would have been funny man nichola i watched your or i listened to your interview today with david and i was like the my favorite part um it was also my least favorite part because david you were reading a prayer for tears right and it was way too long um but nicola your face you you closed your eyes and you like you had the patience that i didn't have and um uh it was great no i mean like i'm just like man what's going on david like this is like you're not memorizing this this isn't gonna happen um but nicola your face you were just so angelic and peaceful the whole time i'm just like i could watch that man sleep in the non creepiest way like if he looks that peaceful i'd like to see the thought bubble though it did it went on it went on long but i i wasn't expecting that long neither but i said i'm gonna soak it up so that's what i did i closed my eyes to soak it up and then i was like wow this is a long prayer but good but then i said no way in hell is he memorizing this challenge accepted challenge accepted challenging better there's better challenges out there like not that you know like that's just the spring challenge the sprite challenge where i have to drink it without burping the whole bottle how much is the whole bottle it's like 250 350 milliliters or whatever it is i'll do that one if you want sure no but david yeah you're sweet let me guess because you want to memorize that because you want the gift of tears is that correct that's correct you know you don't have to do that to get the gift right you just have to ask for it it's not like pre-wreck like memorize this prayer and then that happens but i i want to i'm not expecting to get the gift of tears anytime soon so i want to have that prayer memorized so that i can just at any time i want i can just soak myself in it i suppose if you died went to heaven met god face to face and then you had to fumble in your back pocket you're like wait and pulled it up and then read it to him i'm sure that it wouldn't have the same effect too much on you you're one performance it's like i did this for you lord so i had i had the gift of tears for two years strong i mean i can cry about anything when it came to jesus christ the prayer mass anything i would instantly start crying for two years but wow now that was two years ago so for the past two years um a lot of it most of it vanished and i i only have it at some times now like christmas and easter i'll get it no no i can get it even at the eucharist randomly sometimes i don't know i don't know how or why but i walk up there and there i am legally i'm like i'm trying to hold it back too you know let it flow man awesome but here's the funny thing about it so the reason i mentioned it is because if you get it ha uh be ready to have people look at you and think everything is wrong and think you need help so they're gonna come at you do you need me to pray for you everything okay yeah what's wrong i got and i'm you don't understand no everything is perfect you know that's what i tell them but just say just read them the gift of tears prayer by saying augustine and they'll they'll soon lose interest in all of your problems but one priest got it right away he asked me are you okay and i said yeah yeah i said just um and then i try to start explaining he said ah he goes you got the gift of tears he goes that's good cool priest man sounds like a good one yeah but here's the here's the funny thing though for my journey for two years i was floating man full of consolation and just but this past two years man a lot of it's going away it's almost like i have to learn how to walk you have to learn how to walk again and just be back in the world in reality and struggles and yeah even the fighting just to go to mass and you know the normal the normal stuff the new normal the new normal yeah that's supposed to be uh that's supposed to be a blessing when that happens i've been um been reading about different forms of mental prayer and i've been like trying to practice um lectio divina and it's it's great it's a lot of fun um but that's because i'm so new at it that it's like oh um this is this is gonna be great it won't start meeting much until you start laboring with it and you know um like getting past the initial you know and then getting into like the whole you know slogging out putting the cross on your shoulder and like walking down the street every day same time same place that's when it really starts to um you know count for something because god always you know takes away the cookies at some point it's funny i needed it i needed it myself it's a blessing because i a little judgment started coming my way and i'm looking at people like why do they act like it's so hard to go to church once a week and why did i act like it's so hard to pray and why did you know like i started getting that but this was a good check-in for me you know to to remember the struggle yeah it's awful when i read about this far i'll carry you this far but i'm putting you down right now right there that's where you get off [Laughter] but that carry was wonderful man amazing every time i try to put it in words i can't so kieran says uh nicola i do i do love you but tonight i was on full dad duty because my priorities are all screwed up and i haven't realized yet what's the most important thing in my life signed signed kieran so i appreciate his honesty on that yeah yep because he became an all-star on the cvs podcast and he i don't understand how he you know he he's not putting that first he's playing hard to get with us because he's too good for us it's got to be some kind of game he's plotting don't forget he's he is and platinum nichola don't think i'm not aware of what's going on right now i know why you're joining this chat you're trying to bump yourself up in the stats you're just like everybody like i just wanted to jump in and say hello and you know very well well played sir well-played what do you mean this was all the mastermind david his plan worked his plan is working should i say puppet masters yes pretty soon pretty soon we know we're going to be sending him it's like just venmo me before before the chat just spend money 20 bucks and i'll just be all of us paying money to get on but so i didn't get a chance to wash up yet i still got paint all over my hands a little thing i was spraying today i got paint in my beard i thought this wasn't happening when i didn't get i didn't see any more responses on the email so it's because you guys you guys are old school you don't know or your new school you don't know how to hit that reply all button because everyone's replying to me just to me so no one else can see all the communication so when aiden said aim said he's in and you said you're in but the boys couldn't see it karen's uh kieran's chatting with us saying and this is great laffy smiling face and so he's uh enjoying this uh why is he joining there but not here i don't know anyway i don't understand that because he'll dominate he's doing is he's doing his uh dad thing you know that's good yeah whenever i talk to him he always like he's like yeah man presuppositional blah blah blah snorts then he turns he's like oh buddy do you want some kind of thing that i can give you hold on give me one second and then he turns back and he's just like yeah dude [Music] you've gotten so soft and weak that's good that's very good but he'll he'll join us next time like we'll do this uh we'll do this again for sure but he'll join us next time but yeah it's true he will he will dominate you like that's his that's his duty as the the older brother is to dominate the younger brother i know it's funny i'm thinking of um kieran's journey and just remembering the first few videos oh my god oh my god he was and he was trying to settle straight david oh my god david i'm sad the bible says this and but it's amazing to see the journey man nichola were you protestant as well or were you because after i had my ear i listened to you by the way your first one but i can't remember i just remember you oh what were you you were you were um and all i remember is where i was driving i was in reading pennsylvania and i remember you talking about peter bowing down or telling somebody else not to bow down to him and you're confusing your battle with that piece of scripture but that's all i remember from that interview because it was a couple years like two years ago that i listened to it so i'll stop interrupting you answer i'm i'm i'm i was born catholic and i was a catholic my whole life but nobody practicing it in the house we just had all the images in the house and we went for easter and christmas that was it so knew nothing about it then i had my conversion or my whatever it's called uh my um miracle from god or whatever that was and then from that day i just said i'm gonna follow god as best as i can four years ago and i started reading the bible for myself and um and started watching um youtube videos and and then uh what came with a lot of protestants was the catholic bashing and i felt for those right away and then should i stop being a catholic stop being a catholic was full-blown protestant for about eight months and god pulled me right back into the catholic church after that and even the way that happened was a miracle in itself man because i wasn't or were you were you like a liturgical christian before you were yeah i would say non-denominational and if you okay made me give a name i would say baptist fine but it was more non-denominational probably yeah okay believing because a lot of people just like use that to as the weight as the um way to describe where yeah you know even i'm not a protestant i'm a christian right right um out of the protestantism yeah a miracle but anyways um but besides the miracle um catholic answers had a lot to do with it and um but um i would say yeah mostly catholic answers had a lot to do with it and then my first video was when i finally said wow i'm catholic and and that was right after i found david's channel and got my first interview i was a fresh catholic all over again on that first interview what an honor you reached out to me or what how did i find you um i found you i watched one of your videos and commented and then you commented back and just said you wanna or you asked me i think um i ask everyone yeah don't feel don't feel too flattered ask absolutely everyone i know multiple times multiple times until they say yes or it's until they say stop asking me she chased me she chased me oh yeah and then finally i said yes guaranteed not with the hair down though it had to be tied up because with the hair down she would have ran again i think david should always tear down and i think you know i could do yeah i want the beard i wish i could have the beard maybe i'll like you oh is it your job that you can't no well my wife doesn't like it and plus i don't have a lot of facial hair wait she's orthodox she should love uh she should love a big old juicy beard man but you know i want to i want to just mention something about kieran again it's all about karen right it's all about it's always a bad case let's use a code word it's all about jennifer he's going to be like way to go kieran i'm tired of dreaming about him every night to go there it is all about him so so anyway i'm listening to the archives and going back to the old interviews i'm editing one of uh yours right now aidan and uh i'm sure it's me are you sure it's not oh wait that was actually curious there's a lot of talk sorry there's there's a substantial amount of talk about kieran in that one but there's also one i'm doing editing also one from matthew murdock and it's all about kieran so it's interesting you know the way he uh insinuates himself into our minds and uh what is it like what is it about him like he's just he's good at taking he's really special karen's really brilliant he's funny um he's you know uh kieran oh yeah definitely the mustache yeah my my wife loves anybody who's remotely addicted to anything she thinks that people that she thinks addicts just have an enigmatic personality so like kieran is just hands down you know like when he guns for something he's just like right there i remember in like third or fourth grade he wrote a poem about um thunder or lightning or a combination of the two and it got published in this like book that the teacher like submitted it to and my mom read it aloud and i was like oh wow that was uh that was really brilliant but that was the first time i had any inkling that karen was smart and i was just like he had to copy that that's not him but it took a long time for aiden to admit damn my younger brother smart that that took a long time for those words to come out probably yeah for being the older brother just to give something to the little brother because i know how my older brother is with me and oh yeah yeah well nichola you know i was i was the fat kid right i was like the i was i was always the like kieran's overweight older brother i looked like a woman for many years everybody called me rosie really yeah i lost a lot of weight and uh david you're laughing but it's so true man it's so true everybody's like this is like oh you look like a lesbian i'm like fair enough were you insulted when trump uh threw some shade your way how did you throw shade in my way or just making fun of rosie o'donnell all the time oh yeah well you took that personally i do feel a kinship with her and so i would have i wouldn't have liked that had i heard that so how about you guys know pat is it a boy is it a girl oh yeah saturday night live yeah i was i was called that i was called that for a few years from i would say from 14 to 15 i looked like pat wow you're married right yeah i bet your wife is smoking hot too because that's what happens to all the dudes that that get made fun of they always find the hottest woman that will say yes and they they beeline it for them and that's [Laughter] how long you've been married almost seven years almost seven years how about you yeah i'm going on ten going on ten years this september how old are you if you don't mind me asking because i can't i can't read you're 40 40. oh wow nice man nice i would have just said how about you 32 30. okay okay i'm 52. so we got the 30s 40s and 50s covered here wow mark by the way so astounded at your age david who is mark oh your uncle mark yeah uncle mark yeah yeah yeah he told me he thought i looked young yeah he couldn't believe he's like no way it's like yeah i know david has uh david's going to live forever i hope so well i don't want to live forever but i mean uh i'm blessed with some good genes like i think uh you know i talked to my dad today and he's in his mid 80s and he's out gardening and uh you know wow so good i got some good genes like saint anthony the great yeah dude lived until he was like 108. yeah i just want to live long enough to um my goal is to either die a martyr and go straight to heaven or to that's unlikely to happen or to be a confessor you know what a confessor is isn't it similar to martyrdom where you die for professing the faith well i think one of the criteria is that you don't commit a venial sin or obviously not immortal sin for 10 full years before your death so you have 10 years how would that even occur i mean i mean i'm gonna try to make it happen oh i don't mean for you i just mean i just think in terms of myself i'm just like i literally like i go to confession i sit down and i'm just like let's sin again baby just not too bad before i receive that's i know i know i know kick down the door and i'm just like sup [�__�] let's go hey i want to share a blasphemous fantasy i had during mass this past sunday just sounds horrible just because it's it's strange like i've never had anything like this before um you and i aiden talk talked back in 2019 in your second uh interview part two which i'm editing now and we'll publish soon we talked about having sort of sexual stuff fantasies come during math well i talked about that anyway and um no i frequently yeah so much it doesn't even phase me anymore yeah but this was this was not to do with sex this was to do with food this first time this happened to me like i often think about food while i'm at mass like hey what's my next meal going to be what am i going to eat oh it's going to be delicious like whatever you know i'm often thinking about food during last i try not to but that just comes to my mind and um because i'm hungry usually during mass but and i'm just always hungry all the time even if i just had a meal i'm always thinking about when's my next meal but anyway the point is i was looking at a beautiful life-size crucifix is that matthew murdock no it's my uncle he's at a chicago concert he's sending me videos i know you won't like this but he's like so i'm looking at this life-size crucifix of a white you know statue of jesus on the cross at church and i'm fantasizing about the chocolate cake that my wife asked me to pick up on my way home from church i'm thinking about what kind of chocolate cakes are going to be how delicious is going to taste and all this sort of thing and um and then i just i just had this this this image the reason i'm sharing this with you is because it's partly sick and twisted and it's partly edifying the sick and twisted part is that i pictured the one of the soldiers at the crucifixion holding up on a stick a piece of chocolate cake for jesus to eat right and he's like here have some chocolate cake it's just like a totally absurd monty python moment yep um but at the same time you know it really did it really did humble me it put into perspective this perverted lust i have for food like what the hell am i lusting after a piece of chocolate cake for when i'm you know about to receive the body blood soul in the vineyard of jesus christ and this this idea this mockery of christ by offering them a piece have some cake jesus here you go you know like the when they gave him the vinegar or whatever it was that wine sour wine whatever it was it's just i don't know i've never understood if that was a mockery if they're trying to be nice to him or they're trying to provoke him and trying to get him to talk about elijah or what they were trying to do with that wine there like it seemed like hey he's going to say something hey give him some wine like is it a mockery or were they compassionate i don't know i don't understand that bible scene when they offer him the wine on the hyssop branch or whatever it is but um with the chocolate cake thing it was definitely like uh derision and scorn and mockery and uh you know but it did humble me and it did it did uh condemn me like i felt like uh condemned for this uh this trivial lust i have for something as silly as uh dessert you know well there's like what there's potential sin and then there's actualized sin and we don't like deal with certain things until they pop up so like maybe that was just an opportunity for you to heal in that like one little weird way you know what i mean like you wouldn't have had to deal with like your lustfulness towards like cake or dessert foods you know what i mean and then it like put it in a very explicit way so like um so spotlight spotlight yeah it's like shining a light on it so that way you could deal with that directly because it's just like that's how i've been kind of thinking about sin now anyway i'm like like if something really disturbing comes up because sometimes if i'm like not paying attention that's when it disturbs me but then after a while i'm like oh that's actually that's fine but then i'm like oh this potential for this would have this would have existed had i not had this experience anyway even if i failed to the experience you know what i mean like it's like oh yeah that that potential always existed so you just had the opportunity in that moment to deal with it and then you flubbed it um but like right now right now i'm experiencing something kind of similar to the chocolate cake david right now like i'm praying not right now but like in my generalized prayers where i'm praising jesus and the word sexy keeps coming up where i'm like my sweet jesus or i'm not like my sexy jesus and i'm like no that's that's not it's absurd like i'm sorry jesus that's not what i mean but there's obviously this this satisfaction in the lord that that covers every desire and so it's like well it's not totally wrong it's just um it's just you know not it's just not respectful and it's not like quite hitting it's a bit misguided a bit misguided yeah right right just needs to be tweaked a bit yeah exactly omitted completely we talked about this at length in that your 2019 interview by the way we talked about this yeah i know it just keeps coming but now i'm just like man all right well you know he knew how awful i was before so i was thinking about the course yeah go ahead nicole did that um scene pop out of totally nowhere no no like the oh i'm saying the the guard holding the stick with the cake on it that hold the guard holding the stick did that like just pop out in your head with the cake already or did you think of the guard and then jesus and then the cake on the stick was it like no it was like no the sequence the sequence of events was i'm looking at the crucifix uh admiring it the mass is ongoing i'm half-heartedly listening to the mass and i'm looking at the crucifix and then the idea comes into my head oh yeah i gotta buy that chocolate cake for anna while i'm looking at the crucifix half-heartedly participating in the mass and then right away the whole scene played out in front of my eyes this mockery of christ where it's being offered into his mouth i didn't see the soldier i didn't even see the stick i just saw the the cake on his mouth okay and then i just thought oh my god this is like blasphemous and then i just thought it's funny and then i thought um what is the significance of this what is the meaning of this like what what uh it puts things into perspective in terms of uh you know fasting respect respecting your body and your body's a temple and what is food and is it okay to have some sweets from time to time and what is moderation and all those sorts of questions like you just start thinking about all that sort of thing right yep yeah that glenn is powerful man and i deal with it i take it out on my cigarettes mostly i'll tell you that i'd be scared if i quit i i think i would gain all kinds of weight you'd end up looking like uh rosie o'donnell yeah i was just trying to email you a photograph of her so that you would see but i couldn't do it it won't let me upload it for my phone nicola i also enjoy and this is not good because i'm a nurse and i'm supposed to discourage people from smoking cigarettes but during your interview you're smoking and i'm just like enjoy yourself buddy like i'm like good times vicariously my wife is a nurse she's a registered nurse as well and she works and ate south neurology the neurology floor so ugh neurons got some heavy yep she got some heavy stuff yeah what's the first detroit michigan yeah oh no way okay okay cool yeah we got a lot of michigan nights um down here in pensacola you should uh travel down south and uh come on you're isn't that i think that's where kent hovind lives is that true did you go visit dinosaur adventureland yet or what i do not know what that is you know you don't know ken hovind wow okay david interviewed him is he like a crete like a like a young earth creationist he's the he's probably one of the most famous the most famous one you gotta watch his videos i mean the guy is he's quite a personality he's got a lot of personality and uh you know he's quite sharp and he's got a edge like a lot of edge and he doesn't suffer fools you know he he was my favorite the whole eight months i was protesting he was they had my favorite i would say i still i still like him i mean he he was a little bit aggressive with me against my catholicism you know mocking my belief in purgatory and these sorts of things but i did a response video to him too which i think is uh one of my favorite things um the vitriol against purgation or purgatory like really no because it lends credence to the works it lends credence to the whole issue of faith in works and i was thinking about faith and works because uh one of my daily prayers is uh to the saint saint michael the archangel it's like a sort of uh cha they call it a chocolate to st michael or something like that but um you do the crown the the the with the three hail marys and the like the nine choirs like i do the nine choirs thing yeah the nine quarters there's some brutal prayer man that's all that's a powerful prayer i don't do it properly i do a um sort of like an abridged version of it like i don't do the hail mary's or the our father our fathers or the the uh the glory bees or all these sorts of things i just do the parts that i'm not praying already 20 times a day right like i mean uh i just wanted to get the skeleton of it so that i can like if i end up in a prison cell or something like that i can reconstruct it because i i wanted to memorize the parts that i haven't already got memorized that i say 20 times a day anyway so i just got the skeleton and i've just been in the habit of saying that and uh but the one of the uh choirs of angels um well it's the archangels it says uh by the intercession of saint michael in the celestial choir of archangels let me lord give me perseverance in faith and in all good works in order that i may attain the glory of heaven yeah so give me faith and works so that i can go to heaven what does that mean and as the church prays so she believes as the church prays so she believes so if i'm praying that i want the archangels to give me faith and works so that i can go to heaven what does that mean it means i can't go to heaven without faith and works right like i mean i mean this is not a shocking revelation we know the church teaches that we need faith in works but every day i'm praying this and i'm thinking wow that this is like it's uh it's so taken for granted by the church that it's even found its way into our our prayers right do you think there's any weight to that yeah it just struck me like it just struck me like yeah we it's like it's like an endorsement the stamp of approval given by just this random prayer that i started praying maybe six years ago i think the problem is is that it's not usually parsed out well enough you know like i think trent horn does a really good job talking about faith and works and i always really liked his apologetics that like kind of spoke of those things um um and as far as like you know purgatory is concerned and like working or or or whatever you want to say to get out of it like people always like catholics tend to uh classify purgatory as a place and not as a process and it's like biblically it's so sound that like well you have to be clean to enter heaven you can die in an unclean um state um god it can do that in the blink of an eye but what is the blink of an eye to god to man and what does that process feel like um obviously divine justice has to exist so you can't you can't continue to be um awful to other human beings and not um you know not somehow give back for that because you know like god is all good he's also all just um so really it's just like let's put two and two together here the catholic teaching on purgatory isn't is actually very um it's very vague very open um we have to use reason we have to use reason yeah to me i was gonna say with faith in works to me it's like common sense it's like go ahead and try that with your wife just believe that you love her and that's it just believe it just believe it and everything will be fine and and you know what's funny what's crazy is when i after um after becoming catholic again and then understanding purgatory to me that tied so many loose ends within christianity like purgatory made everything make sense you know that like even how can someone have a deathbed confession how can someone all kinds of loose ends are really tied up that purgatory is the answer to many of these um these unknown questions on on how it makes sense you know that so for me it was deep to understand purgatory and how it all makes sense tied a lot it tied a lot of loose ends up for me yeah it's nichola i've been really interested in prayer lately i mean i've always i've been interested in prayer from the beginning of my conversion but i want to know what do you do for your daily prayer rule or life it's funny as i see you guys saying you guys do the rosary you guys do the everything they are all amazing stuff but i i cringe when i have when i when i try to do set prayers that's when my mind starts wandering that's when that so me it's been for a while now it's been the most sincere and how do you want to call it um spontaneous and sincere as possible um that's most of my prayers and i'll probably do five percent of set prayers and it's 95 percent just just including him in my daily life daily thoughts daily the uh you know when i get a moment and and only sometimes when i'll get into deep prayer is um i have this gregorian chant that i'll play sometimes and let that play and i'll just i'll just gets into everything man karen gets it i know kieran finds his way into everything i told you there was one i found i fell in love with the moment i heard it and then ever since then i'll use that sometimes send me the link but i try the rosary and i've just started doing the rosary um yeah it's tough but i've been doing the the um the divine mercy chaplain actually and with my family so with my wife and my four-year-old and almost two-year-old and we've been trying that and that's been yeah that's been awesome mega grace mega graces wow because i feel like you might you might be a real lover of the practice of the jesus prayer is it the short one the um um lord jesus have mercy on me um yeah yep um it's funny because i don't how does it go again i don't know exactly what different versions of mercedes good enough uh lord jesus christ son of god have mercy on me a sinner sinner yeah yep yeah no it's funny that one when i remember it i'll say it but i forget to say that one a lot i just more like um in different ways again i'll it's i guess my way is most sincere as possible is all i try that's it sometimes i will not even say the word i won't sometimes i'm saying plenty of times i say i'm sorry and but sometimes i won't even say i'm sorry i just i know he knows my heart and i just look down and i you know and and i leave it at that that's what i mean yeah so so that's been mine and i'm sure i'm gonna come to a point where i'm gonna need more set prayers and then get to them i'm sure and i know that that's coming but it's just been as sincere and as spontaneous as possible that's it nice that's awesome dude um that's what catholics need catholics need that and i don't lose i don't lose too many by his grace i don't lose too much focus during mass it's strange i used to before you know yeah but i don't i don't i can focus and hear what you know i mean pay attention what the priest is saying and be all in and once the eucharist is coming start trying to bring all my sins to you know all my sins to it and just um accept it as deep as possible so i don't know it's a grace from him though because in other words and other things there my mind can wander then and lose when i try to read actually when i sit down and try to read my mind will wonder it's weird it sounds like you kind of have a general practice of the presence of god kind of like what brother lawrence talks about which is just turning every activity into a prayer excuse me i i don't know brother lawrence the um i have read that book because it's short i read short books and books on demons because i was just telling you that i could start you know yeah short books and books on demons that's for sure everybody should start [Laughter] the short books i gotta start because i need to uh read more and get into not let my mind wander while i'm reading you know i've had two real moments with um the holy spirit i mean i've had a couple i'm sure i've had more than that but two that stand out in the last couple years with the with the holy spirit and um one of them i was standing in front of my bathroom mirror and i was like being overly heady about prayer and i said lord how do you want me to pray and i felt this guttural response in my chest and in the back of my neck and it just said from the heart that's all god wants us to just pray from the heart it's as simple as that so i'm going to tell you i'm going to tell you a story and a second one if i remember because but um so i did a novena asking for a dream i wanted a dream i said from god whatever he wants to give me right i said give me whatever you want to give me if um but i want something from you anything what should i do what can i do what support whatever it may be i did a nine-day novena and it didn't and the ninth day came and nothing happened right and i remember i was a little disappointed about that and i was like you know i kind of lost a little faith in the novena prayer right it's stealth and i was like okay whatever you know and this and that and then but and then about three weeks later and my dreams i barely remember them i i don't really have too many dreams and if i do they're goofy silly and i forget about them by the time i wake up but anyways about three weeks later or something like that i have this dream it's as real as can be right it's vivid it's real it's deep i walk into church i get on my knees as soon as i get on my knees everything disappears the chairs to everything is just me on my knees blackness and i look up a human heart the biggest human heart but it's huge it's a huge human heart i would say about 10 feet high above me and maybe six feet wide right six feet up like a huge human heart i see and i looked to the left and and fire there was fire um fire all around almost like but there was nothing there to be on fire but there was a fire as if something was catching on fire every every direction i looked all the way around was this fire and it was you burning in hell and then simultaneously with all that i literally felt like a combination of if i was on the world's fastest roller coaster if i jumped out of an airplane um that falling effect um all these crazy emotions and comfort and love and and um just all kinds of a mixed bag of what where it was like almost even revving up and getting more and more and more and more and that's what woke me up then so it was pretty crazy it was awesome but yeah it was awesome but yeah so but that's what he gave me and then i was like but if i ask what did that mean hurt on fire what else does it mean besides i see a heart the heart of love or the love of christ burning the heart of christ love and that big heart and that's been a big that's been a big thing too for me god keeps giving me that grace of love love love love and that could sound very corny i know and i know an atheist an atheist could even love someone and they say to be nice and love everybody but there's a real love and a fake love right so and it's just god keeps pushing that love and then and the more i try then the more i realize how hard it is to love everybody and love correctly and love like christ did you know it's a far it's a high mountain to climb but we just keep trying for that amazing anything but fall into the religiosity of it and fall into the motions of it and fault you know so pharisaical rigidity and yeah rigorous rigor yeah legalism checklist uh checklist check check check i did not yeah okay i cried cried my tears i had my dream about the hurt okay i'm in yeah i'm fascinated by the transverbation of the heart like the idea of the heart getting pierced you know and like like this like terrific angel comes down and stabs you in the heart and i'm like man lord i really want that and then this is like well you know maybe you should try to like love people naturally like and like like consistently yeah baby steps baby stuff yeah like why don't you like you know be better to your wife and it's like okay and then it's just like yeah but that's true though like you don't just like get the big stuff without the the small steps in between it wouldn't make sense that way so yeah yeah i love mother teresa too yeah i'm just inspired by her so much [Music] she's your countryman she's your fellow countrymen right yep albanian ladies it's not for that reason that why i'm attracted to her i'm attracted there by the love she gave and by the work she did man so and then that makes the extra connection she is albanian as well so her power her the power she has in her delivery of every word she speaks no wasted no wasted words i opened a book with her one day and i saw her face and it it just beamed with light i'm like ah she's holy there is just no denying it yeah i heard a speech she gave about abortion just the four or five days ago and i was like wow wow wow try to look up the speech whether she gave on abortion that meeting national prayer day in the white house or something like that yep yep i was like wow wow amazing she's amazing and then she and i love how she's in that michael they put her in the michael jackson video you know that song a man in the mirror no way do you know that something yeah yeah there's a there's a few shots of her no way i loved it i love the part they chose to even put in somebody has a kid a sick child and she could she just basically dove to grab this child and put her in his arms put him in her arms and i'm just like wow it's so deep i love it you know i was i was at a job on a job picking up some materials at the supply whatever warehouse and they have all kinds of stuff they stock for all kinds of different businesses and one of the things they're stalking is all this lit these linens like i don't know what they are but they're like like laundry's been done or something and there's all this fabric there like i don't know if it's bed sheets or what it is but i swear to god it looked like i shouldn't swear to god but it looked exactly like and it reminded me of the what the the sisters you know mother teresa's sisters like that order did she found that order or what but it's got just the white with the blue stripes with the blue stripes i saw it i don't know if she made it fame i don't know if she put it on the map or if she found it but i know she had her own thing she found it but i don't know if that came with it or not but i just i just felt a desire like i wanna have one of these clothes with this like this white and blue because it just it just brought me to mother teresa and i just love i just love her yep yep they were selling um one at my church uh a version of it like a scarf but in the white and blue i loved it i i i bought it and i just i got it blessed and i love that thing so yeah it's cool to have though but i know what you're saying about that and you know she she dealt with she dealt with the the poor right where she's famous for dealing with the poor and helping the poor but she made a funny comment about a funny assessment of who the poorest people are it's those in the west who are killing their babies they're the poorest people they're the poor you know she she sees through she sees as god sees she knows who's rich and who's poor that's right and it's the poverty the poverty to not even value your own child that's the ultimate poverty yeah can you imagine i got dark really quick yeah so found her headdress and it'll be really nice to have have something like that around don't kill your children well yeah that's why we love her though that's why we love her because she she will nail you on your hypocrisy she will nail you without like without you know without like cornering your personal indeed that is look how deep that is you're not the poor that has zero dollars in your pocket that's the poor right there yeah that are killing their babies yeah you know that's what poor being poor means and we have to see jesus in those people that's the hard part those though i was i was at the i was at the uh i was at the propane station getting some propane tanks filled up for my work and uh you know i just dressed like a street bomb and whatever and i got my bashed up pickup truck from work and whatever totally classless and uh this rich guy pulls up totally rich totally rich car he's dressed to the hilt he's got like his cravat his french cravat and his sunglasses and his hair is perfectly he's got the nice shoes and the watch and everything and he walks up with his little tiny canister i've got three huge hundred pound canisters he's got a little 30 pounder and uh the guy running the shop the propane shop says oh excuse me i i'm just gonna serve this gentleman first and then i'll do you okay even though i got there first and i made a joke i made a joke i know i know full well i'm not stupid i know the reason is because he has a little one it's faster and then he'll do my three big ones okay i know that but i made a joke and i just was acting like i'm all pissed off like yeah yeah sure serve him first because he's rich and i tried i tried to give attitude right right in front of the guy and i was hoping that he would have some humility he'd laugh along right but he he kept a completely straight face and he thought i was serious that i was seriously like oppressed under class that's like rebelling and i'm showing my true anger towards the hatred towards the rich people whatever i wasn't i was just making a joke can you laugh at yourself like can you laugh at the theater of this like we're all gonna die we're all going to end up before our maker and like can you laugh at the role you're playing because i can laugh at the role i'm playing you know but he couldn't and the guy working there couldn't either he's like no no no no he worked very hard for his money the rich people work very hard for the money and i was thinking i had another joke spontaneously come into my head yeah it's hard work managing all those slaves isn't it but i didn't say that joke i didn't say that joke because the first one didn't fly that one certainly wouldn't i would say they probably just didn't get you were joking but but you're right they in the within themselves now they got to realize to be able to laugh at themselves yeah come on they just probably had no idea you were joking that's all they thought you were serious probably yeah there's something overly sterile about people with money like they're and i was um yeah i guys have probably seen women that are so good-looking that it's painful to look at them it's just like oh my goodness it's like they're ripping your heart out right now there's like a type of man and woman that exists that exists that's i see that david collins yeah so like there's uh this type of rich person that exists they're just so well put together they're so clean they're so well clothed it looks like they don't sweat it looks like they don't wipe their butt it just looks like they're just this immaculate like floating species that just goes along and just doesn't doesn't you know pour out any fluid from any orifice and um unlike nicola with his tears with his tears i went to your tears not anything else go ahead that's right no but i mean there's something about that person where you just like and you feel like it's kind of it's like the opposite you know when saint francis meets the leper and he feels repulsed by him like you see that with those people and i think about my interactions with them because i know i get those people as patients and i have to put my hands on them i have to touch them i have to take care of that to interact with them and i almost feel like my dirtiness is like corrupting their their like their well put together

CVS Live Guest - 2022-05-12 - Brenda vs. Joe

so we are live i'm here with joe and brenda take it away guys okay uh my name is joe um i'm happy to have a conversation with uh brenda i think uh i'm a theist and she's an atheist so yeah maybe we can both talk about our points of view and uh you know just discuss them i don't think probably neither of us is going to change our minds but uh do we have the set this is the topic of abortion a set topic uh i wasn't gonna i was just gonna talk about if god exists oh okay i thought that was i was misunderstood i i misunderstood oh your daughter okay huh okay um yeah i'm an atheist i i don't think there's any good reasons to believe that in the existence of of god okay all right uh so then let me ask you what what would a good reason to believe in god what what would be a good reason i think that if you could consistently perform some kind of miraculous feat that would give me that would give evidence that would increase my increase the probability that a god exists well if you can consistently do a miraculous feat then it wouldn't really be miraculous would it because you would just sure would sure if you did it all the time it would be normal right no if you could consistently break the laws of of physics for example then that would indicate that there is perhaps a supernatural force or being which could intervene in the physical universe and alter things was just thinking if it happens all the time that would seem to be a normal thing if it consistently happened i understand a miracle to be like a once you know it happens once right or i understand a miracle to be a violation of the laws of uh the universe okay all right so so presumably a god who exists independent of the universe created the universe would have the ability to intervene and that intervention would be what i would call a miracle and he could do it consistently it wouldn't be a mechanic like the loss of the universe it would simply be at his whim right or or something like that but that would indicate to me that there's a higher power okay so so like if what about like somebody rising from the dead would that be a miracle yeah that would change my that would change my outlook i would then have to reevaluate everything i know um either the the world doesn't work the way i thought it died does or there's a being that can step in and intervene in the mechanics of the world okay that's good that's good man i remember i listened to an episode of uh talk even and jay mike said you know j mike is one yes one of the hosts he said well even if jesus rose from the dead it could it's more likely that it's aliens so it's like i would say that yeah the probability would be but if you or somebody else could consistently say pray to god and and have that happen that would indicate that it's not aliens it might be that god it seems to me okay okay that's uh that's reasonable so uh i'll just tell you i i wasn't always a believer i didn't believe a lot of my life so but some things happened in my life and uh i also started studying the arguments and i kind of changed my mind on everything so what was it that happened in your life was it a young catholic girl that happened in your life oh no it was just some personal experiences oh okay but that's the uh dug at pine creek thesis is that young catholic girls have converted more non-believers than any argument ever has well yeah it's not so much that i'm religious it's just i just came to a belief that uh that god actually exists so it's not so much i'm not part of any real religion so it's not that i'm so you you're not a christian ah i mean you can label me that but i i'm a believer but uh i'm not your theist are you a deist does your deity intervene in the universe i believe uh i believe christianity is true how's that so sounds like you're a christian then go through some is that if we go through some of the arguments or okay or if you want to ask me any questions or whatever well i'm just kind of i am kind of curious i i believe that there are no good reasons to believe in the deity so i call myself an atheist if you want to push maybe an atheist agnostic but i have a positive belief that there's no good reason to believe in a deity and so far i understand that you are a nominal christian is that how you would put it yeah i guess you could put it that way why christianity rather than islam or judaism uh judaism is really cool you know you get to go to the the central bank and make a withdrawal when you convert to judaism uh-uh i didn't i was actually i'm bored i'm born i can hear dave i can hear david because he knows my sense of humor i'm born jewish actually so well i come from a jewish family get all that gold man okay all right well i'm sorry i was being flippant but um why not islam or hinduism uh with hinduism you've got like about several thousand gods to choose from oh because i don't believe that's true so i believe that i believe i believe in the evidence for the resurrection so oh that isn't that what it all comes down to so well i don't know well first you have to believe god exists if god doesn't exist then then christianity is obviously not true correct right if there's if the judeo-christian god doesn't exist then there's no good reason to believe in any of the three major um abrahamic religions right yeah so well for me i like a lot of the philosophical arguments those are those are things that convinced me so really yeah the first the first question i always ask myself is i think it's leibniz questioning why does something exist rather than nothing do you think there's an answer to that um i'm not sure there is a good answer to that i i think that something does exist if nothing existed then i'm not sure how there could be anything right right i mean that's i guess that would mean something has always existed wouldn't you agree some well yeah either something or some person i suppose or some being that's usually how it's put usually how it's put in with leibniz's cosmological argument is that it's either a being or some principle or some aspect of the universe that has always um existed but um yeah i can just i can just postulate that there's always been uh something even with the big bang i could say that there just has been a prior prior conditions of some kind okay so uh so now wouldn't that do you believe like an infinite regress is possible it might be i'm not sure i see a logical problem to an infinite regress um but there are people they're called infinitive infinitivists who do believe that infinite regresses are not necessarily um bad i think i would tend to um reject uh reject an infinite regress type of argument okay but that doesn't mean that doesn't mean i i think that the universe can have an infinite past oh that's interesting i don't see any contradiction and lots of people have written about it that there doesn't seem to be any logical contradiction between their having being an infinite past or an infinite future i mean after all if you can have an infinite future you can have an infinite past okay well i think there's pro i think there's quite a bit a bit of problems with that so it's all right if i so yeah an infinite pass okay there's a lot of problems with an infinite past but the infinite future you you know the difference between potential infinite and actual infinite sure okay so like a potential infinite you know we could go on into the future forever right yeah potentially but actually but the actual infinite will will never reach it right we'll never reach a point where we've reached an actual infinity right that would seem to be the case so so there's no such thing as an actual infinite i don't know i i i would tend to reject actual uh infinites existing in our universe yeah okay so so that then there's a problem with uh an incident i think the multiverse could be infinite and there are people who say that the universe itself could be of infinite size there are people who say that i'm talking about like infinite quantities like you can never have an infinite number of things well there's people who say that the universe could be infinite in size okay well there's no there's no number infinity so you can't have a like i couldn't have an infinite number of pens right it doesn't seem so no right so and the problem with an infinite past is so if there's a series of events that goes back infinitely you would actually never arrive at any you would never arrive at today and you would never arrive at any point in time because there would always be an infinite number of the number of events before any single event so there's a lot of problems with an infinite past which i think it's just illogical what's the contradiction well well the first contradiction is there's no such thing as actual infinite so if you can't have an actual infinite you can't have it couldn't be i don't know why there couldn't be there's no logical contradiction in an actual infinite i think i think that the multiverse could very well be an actual infinite okay there's no such thing as having an actually infinite number of patterns right now you agree to that there could be an actual infinite in the multiverse and there could be one pen in only in each universe and therefore you could have that as an actually infinite number of patents so you can't have an infinite number of pens it could be um i don't see how it would work in this universe although there's people that say it could be infinite but it doesn't seem likely to me but you could have an infinite number of pens spread out through an infinite number of universes so you can't have an infinite number of things sure there's no contradiction to reach an infinite number once you have to reach the number that precedes that number infinity is easily dealt with in modern mathematics today all the time but it is a concept but there are infinite sets and mathematicians deal with infinite sets all the time i know but we can't have an actually infinite number of anything can we i don't know why not i'm not seeing the contradiction there's set theory deals with infinite sets and there's no logical contradiction in an infinite set so i think you could have an infinite number of pens in an infinite number of universes i i think that would constitute you know the set of pens and it would be infinite okay i mean i think we'll just disagree i mean i don't think infinity is it's not a number it's not a quantity it's an unreachable quantity so you can have an infinite number of universes and you can't have an infinite number of pens because infinitely you're just rejecting that a priori i don't see the justification for that because mathematicians deal with infinite sets all the time it's set theory is it a number or not it's not a number then it is a concept it's a set right there's a potential you can potentially go on forever but you can't have an infinite number of things i don't know why not because there's no number that precedes it but you can have a set with an infinite number of members an incident meaning unlimited but there's no quantifiable number that that that can be here it's not a quantity i i suppose in the traditional sense it's not a it's not an integer an infant set is not an integer i don't think maybe it's a different type of thing it's a mathematical object and it's perfectly valid to talk about infinite sets and like i said you could have say in this universe there's only one pen but in the multiverse which i believe is possible if not even somewhat likely i'd give it greater than 50 at least there could be another infinite number of universes with one pen where did that predict that could exist okay if you say so but uh you said that it's you said it's more likely it's 50 percent likely that we have uh well that's i i'm no expert i'm not i'm no expert on this i just take what the people who um seem to know what they're talking about have to say at their face value and the and the physicists that i read about tell me that the multiverse is highly likely to be true so they believe that there are multiple universes in addition to ours right our our universe our cosmos i do they say cosmos for the multiverse i forget which our universe is just one among a multitude which i believe could be infinite and our universe could be infinite in size and that's just what the the theoreticians in physics tell me and i'm not an expert enough to dispute what they have to say so i just take take them at their word well i i guess i've heard different because i i remember watching a video with lawrence krauss and he was you know he i think he believes in the possibility of a multiverse and he was on a panel with a bunch of physicists and uh the other physicist said there's no evidence at all of a multiverse so that's right there's no evidence of a multiverse but they still think that it's a possibility it's my understanding okay that's fine yeah there's no evidence of a multiverse i don't know how you would you would get evidence for that i don't know how that would work but according to our best empirical theories about our universe my understanding is is that a multiverse is a distinct possibility okay that would need an explanation too wouldn't it if there's a multiverse uh yeah i suppose we would like to have one yes we believe in the principle of sufficient reason yeah i'm not sure i do know that everything needs an explanation yeah i think some things might not have an explanation oh that's interesting i think that i i think that so i think the principle sufficient reason is that everything has either an explanation and something else and an external cause or uh yeah it's a necessity of its own nature right so and you think there's something but there could be an underlying substance or principle to our universe that simply has always existed that would make it necessary right i don't know if it makes it necessary it could just have always existed i don't know what that would mean to me say it's necessary necessary means it can't it cannot not exist i'm not sure that having always existed is the same as cannot not exist i'm not sure those are the same yeah i think those are just okay you you think they're this i'm not sure about that i think you're right they're not the same oh okay i think necessary would be like maybe if it exists in all possible worlds like two plus two will always equal four in every single possible world possibly yeah i'm not an expert you know way more philosophy than me so i don't know a great deal there's lots of people who know a lot more than i do yeah all right uh are there any other are there any arguments that you like to talk about with uh i don't know that you find yeah it seems to me that i don't know how a mind can exist without a body wouldn't that be would that be an argument from ignorance um it would be an empirical argument and it would be simply an inductive inference that it doesn't seems to me that minds are always the consequence of brains brain activity right and it and i have a hard time understanding how a mind could exist without an uh without a brain to give rise to mental activity there's a lot of people who are substance duelists right like i don't know if you've heard david david chalmers he's like an expert brain uh scientist i know i think he i don't know much about him i'm really sorry i i doubt he's a substance duelist isn't he a property duelist uh i don't you might be right but maybe the property i'm not sure i think substance dualism is really hard to justify i really don't see how you can justify their a substance due list what do you think uh this is something i thought about this i watched josh rasmussen and he said he's talking about what thoughts were right guitar yeah what are they that's the activity of neurons in your brain it's the firing of neurons what are they made of neurons your thoughts are made of neurons the thoughts are what you have when your neurons are firing like yeah we can be pretty sure of this because when your neurons don't fire people tend to be dead it seems to me thoughts are immaterial entities how do you how how did you figure that because my my thoughts can't be part of my brain why not because they're not physical they're not physical things so you're just begging the question well they're not well if you think if i think the thought uh how much does a dog weigh and i think that thought and i think well where is that thought what what does that thought look like it would look like your neurons firing then aren't you begging the question how do you know that no it just it just seems to me that that's what it would be because when we turn off those neurons you don't have thoughts anymore so you think your thoughts are made of matter well they're the consequence of of your neurons activity right so when you're when your neurons are not active right then you don't have thoughts but what do you think they're made of they're not made out of anything they're they're the consequence of of brain activity okay so they're not making any so they must be immaterial if they're not made of any no i don't think so so this computer right now is very active right and when i turn it off it will no longer be active but that doesn't mean that the software is immaterial it's not immaterial the software actually exists on the hard drive it's simply being the consequence of what i can see right here in front of me and the operation of the computer all of that is i woke up i woke up alexa computer stop [Music] i'm gonna have to think of another word because because that's my wake word for alexa um so stop laughing david i changed the wake word to the c word now i can't use it um no computer [Music] there it goes computer stop god damn um so so um i don't the software is not immaterial right it simply and these events that are happening on my screen are not immaterial they they really exist and they're the consequence of my pc and its operation and so my thinking my experiences um and all my beliefs and sensations are the consequence of my brain when it is um working properly or even improperly then i get bad experiences okay you know i think we can just disagree i think i think thoughts are immaterial things but uh yeah how come because i just think they're not i think it's really almost self-evident that they're they're they're immaterial entities that they exist they're not doesn't seem self-evident to me at all it seems to me it seems to be pretty evident right if i drink alcohol um it changes my thoughts because it's changed my brain right if i take lsd it i've never done that um could i be terrified of doing that if i take a psychoactive drug it changes my my experiences because it changes how my brain works how does how does um alcohol affect an immaterial substance i can't answer every question i just think uh i think the mind is i think your thoughts are immaterial entities that's just my opinion but uh dude we go to something else if you want well no i i kind of want to pursue this because this was elizabeth of bohemia's objection to descartes which was she didn't see how material objects could affect immaterial world or the immaterial could affect the material right unless you're saying there's some sort of causal connection between the material and the immaterial do you think that there is uh you know i'm not like a brain expert or anything why can't why can't immaterial things affect the material world because they're causally um isolated from each other because otherwise if if and because we think that the uh the physical world is uh causally closed there's no outside it would violate a number of conservation laws right so so where in the brain does the soul connect to the brain to to the body these are questions i can't answer you know i'm not i don't have every answer to everything and then it seems to me that it's not terribly up um self-evident if you can't if you just hypothesizing something for what you can't have any kind of explanation and or any kind of mechanism i can offer a mechanism which is simply that my thoughts arise due to the activity of neurons in my brain i can point to them i can point to the region that's responsible for vision i can point to the region where there's higher order thinking and all kinds of things but you can't give any explanation well you're the one who said that thoughts are not made of anything so that would be the definition of thoughts are they're not a substance they're just the activity of the of the brain well it's got to be made of something if it exists why so you think if if it exists it's got it has to exist either material or immaterial right those are the only two options sure well he says these could be different levels of description right so one way of talking about for instance the the water in my teapot is that it's hot it has a temperature but there's no such substance as temperature temperature is just a way of talking about the collective activity of all the molecules in the water which is that they have a kinetic energy that results in the teapot water boiling but there's no substance called temperature but it's just it's just a way of talking about about the water okay so the thoughts they're not made of anything then they're not material they're just they exist right do they basically there's a supervenience there's a supervenience there's a way of talking about things how how does the neurons create the thoughts i don't think we know that i don't think you know that but they the neurons um have connections with each other and it's their activity that gives rise to thoughts thoughts and memories memories are stored are memories stored in the soul i have no idea well we're pretty sure that they're stored in the brain and i believe it's many of the memories maybe not all are stored in the neuron as chains of of molecules inside of the neuron i could be wrong about that i'm not up on everything so but it's memories are are are physical i can go into your brain and erase your memories if i know where a specific memory is i can erase it by scrambling that region of the brain can you put like a memory and like can you hold a memory land can you put it in a box probably at some future time we might have the technology to do that okay i think we just disagree it's fine well you don't have any reason you haven't given any reasons for any of the things that you're talking about it's just you just believe these things i have reasons and evidence which is that substances affect the brain which affects my thoughts you have no explanation for why that would happen you have no explanation for memories it doesn't seem possible that the soul even has memories maybe it doesn't you have no explanation for any of these things i never mentioned this all you did you kept mentioning it against the soul material or immaterial i never talked about this the salt what do you think what would it be if it exists i don't think a soul exists all right well i didn't say anything about this all i just talked about your thoughts yeah what does the soul think look did all i talked about was thoughts and i said they were they were immaterial yeah i don't think they're immaterial i think they're material and i said we disagree and that's yeah yeah but what do you think do you think that our souls can think i do i probably yeah i do i do i think i think your mind is your soul oh okay well how does that work i don't know how does the multiverse work um it come it came into being as a result of inflation in the early part of the universe how'd that happen i'm not sure i don't know okay so you're defending something you don't know i don't know everything either you know i i i don't understand where you're going with this so you seem to want to have this position but you don't seem to want to have to defend it all right i'll just say you're right how's that is that better because we'll just go around and run in circles do you want to keep going in circles we would just go on for an hour talking the same stuff you don't want to do that all right if you want to change if you figure up some up something else in mind no don't you think that's a better idea than just keep going around and go ahead sure what are you what are your thoughts on uh morality do you think like i think uh you know some atheists think it's objective subjective like i think it's easier to put it like are there just moral facts or moral opinions so um do you know that what what is uh on the objective morals to you dude how do you understand that uh i would say i guess a moral fact would be something that's true regardless of whether any person believes it or not right so objective means that it's independent of personal opinion yeah right and so where do your morals come from no i'm just i'm just asking are there more are there such things as moral facts i'm not sure that there are but what do you think uh yeah i think uh there are more facts i would go towards that because i think i think if there are no more facts then it just becomes everything just becomes merely subjective to each individual and then that means you can't really say anyone is done right or wrong because everybody can just make up their own moral system yeah i'm not convinced that if there are no moral facts everything is subjective i don't believe that so then you think it's objective no i didn't say that well it's got to be either objective or not objective which would be subjective i'm not sure about that isn't that a dichoto a strict dichotomy objective or not objective well i don't think there are any objective morals but i don't think that if there are no objective morals then everything is just is just um piggledy pealty why not i because i think that there can be there can be obligations and um possibly you could use the language of obligations and duties you could take the utilitarian view that what's what's moral is what's in the what's best for everybody you could take a number of views and those don't have to rely on any objective moral facts they don't have to where do more obligations come from um probably for me from society and from my my my culture and my parents the people around me so like if i came from like nazi germany then my obligation would be to do what they did right would it by your theory i think is that that's not my theory we said it comes from our community our families where we come from yeah well if i came from nazi germany shouldn't i do what they do and like kill the jews i'm not convinced that that was in line with the culture of germany for one thing i think that they may very well been out of a line with the culture of germany okay what about like like i used to live in africa and uh i lived in uganda for a little while for two years that it's illegal to be gay and they they maybe they kill gays that's part of the culture is that yeah is that wrong objectively yeah i think it's wrong or it's opinion i don't think it's objectively wrong okay so they have their rights but i cannot like things and i can think that i can think that that is um not a good law for people to have right it doesn't follow that because that if i have if i don't agree on moral facts that therefore i have no say in anything yeah of course you can have your opinion but it's just your opinion versus their opinion nobody's right nobody's wrong well you're just kind of totalizing right and wrong i think i think that right and wrong could be different than simply that i think um i think it's it's a good thing right to help people to not cause harm to other people and what if i and so that would be in line with my moral belief that you shouldn't not necessarily harm people so laws against homosexuality would unnecessarily harm homosexuals yeah well that's just your belief why would they yeah well because well because i i think it's it's just a better way to do things right so it would be my job to convince the legislatures of that area to change their laws like if i was back in the pre-civil war south and there's laws permitting slavery i would be against that i think i would be against it i hope i would be against it but then it would be my duty to convince people around me that they should change their laws and no longer practice slavery because i think but because i think it's immoral in moral meaning that it causes harm to people unnecessarily and they shouldn't do that so it's a fact that it's immoral no no it's it's it's my it's my my my belief it's my moral principles it's my my moral beliefs and somebody else who believes slavery's all right then that's theirs like in the bible like in the bible yeah right it'd be purely subjective no no no you're just making this dichotomy because everything has to be either all this or all nothing and i just don't i just don't accept that it has to be all or nothing like that it seems to me to be a very extreme view i think i i am able to say that some things are wrong based on my beliefs and desires about and i think that we should not hurt other people to the as much as we have you know unnecessarily cause harm to people and i think that therefore that gives me a um a duty to convince other people that they should they should don't do that you know when you're hurting gays or enslaving people you know don't do that and and i have to convince and i think that's what history shows is that people over time come to the conclusion slavery and it's a bad idea um being anti-gay that's a bad idea we should we should value other people right and not harm them unnecessarily that's those are bad ideas yeah yeah i think that's a moral truth that we should value other people i would say that's a moral fact not more not a moral opinion well you know the rapist or the murderer or the pedophile or whoever they're just gonna say well why should i listen to brenda why shouldn't i make up my own uh do what's in my self-interest well they don't actually believe that though do they they don't rapist don't rape do rapists think that they should be raped well do they rape no i'm saying do rapists think that they should be raped i don't know what they think i i would i would guess that most rapists would think that they ought not to be raised so what they're doing what they're doing is making an exception for themselves over other people it's like the thief it's like the thief who steals thieves don't think that you should steal from them but they think they can steal from you therefore they're making an exception for themselves correct right so they don't actually believe that that theft is good they only believe it in you know it's just it's just i get to do it and and you know right so they're making an exception for themselves which is illogical right they think whatever benefits them is right right so they're making an exception for themselves and who says they can't well if you have a moral law right that's not going to say it's not going to say um theft is theft is bad except for john doe it's gonna say theft is bad okay i think we just i think that there are moral facts and you think i don't know what you think but uh i think i told you what i think okay i don't know i believe in the principle of harm which is that we shouldn't harm other people all right well you think that's an opinion though not a fact i think it might be a little bit more than just an opinion i think i think it's a bit more than that what does that mean i don't know what that means it's more than an opinion it seems like it's either you have an opinion or you have a fact i don't think there's anywhere in between okay all right convince each other i don't think either way but uh i think we probably disagree on everything so huh what do you think about design what i'm guessing you don't think i know you don't think you got a whole list don't you i mean if we're going to talk i don't know what is design so i think that evolution is a fact right because it is our best theory that accounts for all the evidence that we've found right about animals about speed different species fossil animals and living species today evolution is the best explanation for how biology works without evolution biology doesn't make any sense so evolution is the best explanation that's a that's a claim how do you know that it's the best one we've come up with it conforms the theory the theory of evolution explains the facts that we find on the ground the the fossils that we dig up and the animals that are still alive when we um when we um understand them it's a unifying theory that explains the biology that we see on earth how did evolution start i don't know oh what about abiogenesis is there evidence for that yeah there's evidence for that there is i never thought about that what is it you haven't looked into it then why should i talk about it with you you don't know what you're talking about all right there's evidence for abiogenesis but we don't have anything definitive or near to the level of evolution uh evolution takes place you know afterwards so that's okay so evolution is the explanation for the origin of species by means of natural selection descent with modifications abiogenesis is the explanation for the origins of reproducing life on earth there are a number of theories we found that molecules for life like rna will spontaneously self-replicate in clay in in clay um on the surface of clay and stuff they just spontaneously assemble themselves hmm i rather there's a lot of problems with that experiment but what have you read the the other side too i haven't read that much on it but i don't think i would suggest that um this is something i do in both politics and sciences is that if there's something i don't know i google the pros and the cons so i would read um not just the people who are making claims from the creationist side i would read the the evolution side right and so there's a lot of good material out there that's not hard to find so i think you should do your due diligence and and look for the answers unless you're just looking to confirm prior beliefs i agree with you i think you should look at both sides right so berkeley uh berkeley university has an excellent um website on evolution which which is really good and explains a lot of the fundamental concepts so you could look into that and there are a lot of there are a lot of undergraduate level college texts that are available you could probably find free older pdfs of college-level texts and those are approachable by reasonable people and you could find out about them i would suggest i do the same thing with politics too when somebody says such and such uh well joe biden is responsible for inflation and then i i look around and i google it and i find the people that say he is and the people that say he's not and then i make a decision yeah i think you should look at both sides i'm 100 that's yeah that's what i do good right i applaud you right and the same is true for um policies surrounding uh mask wearing uh policies around vaccinations uh policies around tax policy gun control um any of those other what we should do in the ukraine there are different people giving their different opinions and if you look up and if you just put like debunked um after the search term you'll get sites that will say that they're debunking this or that and you can get the other opinion and then hopefully you make a choice based on on the best available evidence um you're not always going to do that i don't always do that but um it's a good way to approach things i agree with you i'm with you 100 i think you should examine both both views we'll see which is the most better explanation for everything and uh conclusions on everything right and in my understanding the best explanation of of the presence of life on earth or species of life on earth is evolution by natural selection which is that there it we have an environment in which only some animals will survive to the next generation right and only those who are capable of surviving will in fact survive and those traits get passed down to the survivors and so over time right you get new species that way for example the evolution of whales from a land um dwelling pecacetus there's hundreds of fossils and you can that have been uh discovered that show a clear progression from the land dwelling quadruped of pacquisitis to an ocean dwelling uh a whale or or other species for instance right and this explains how that happened you can you can practically watch right the nose the nostrils go from the front of the snout right to the middle of the head how many generations do you think it would take for a for a land dwelling animal to turn into a whale it's a result of populations over millions of years so it takes millions of years for these things to happen here's one question i have about evolution i i was always wondering how did male and female come to be for every mammal it seems to me like every wikipedia page on that there you know it seems to me it's more we're almost out but there's an advantage to having males and females because it mixes the genes better so did every animal split into two it seems like that what are you talking about how did every animal split into two yep male and female how did that come from one single thing what are you talking about oh yeah yeah yeah i i don't know what you're talking about what do you mean they split into two how did male and female come to be i don't know but you know that there are male and female bacteria right i don't know yeah you don't know a lot you're right neither do you actually i do i've been able to answer all of your questions i don't think you've answered any of them well if you're going to be rude to me i'm going to be rude back but you haven't answered any of my questions and i've i have answered all of them well i thought all your answers were wrong remember because you answer a question doesn't make your answer right does it david sorry man if somebody's gonna be rude to me i'm gonna be rude back i don't think i was rude i don't i don't think i was rude no problem it's fine i'm just going to summarize it which is i was able to answer every single one of his questions he has no idea what he's talking about on any of the subjects no idea how souls no idea how souls have memories how souls work or function you have no idea how how the universe came to be you have no idea how species come to be you have no idea how how life came to be you don't have any answers uh every and i asked answered every single question that you asked me and you gave no answers to anything that i asked you all right if you say so brenda you couldn't tell me what the multiverse was you couldn't tell me where the multiverse came from you couldn't tell me a good answer what thoughts were you couldn't tell me how evolutionary i told you what thoughts were yeah and you were wrong those aren't some doubts you haven't you didn't show i was wrong just said you just went nuh-uh no you said there you said they're not even made of anything i did too i said they're they're they're the the result of the active brain activity and i wouldn't say they weren't made how do i know that yeah because when you because when the brain activity stops the thoughts stop so are your brain you're a brain expert i guess let's agree to disagree and let's not get let's not get nasty let's not get nasty let's i think it's over buddy peace and peace and love well we're out of time anyway because google meet is going to kick me off in two minutes so uh yeah i don't think we accomplished anything uh productive there it's okay i i'm not overly upset or anything don't get worked up either of you i'm not overly worked out don't get overly worked up if i had to choose a winner i'd choose brenda i think brenda won thanks david no because come on you gotta you gotta bring you gotta bring more than that joe you can't just say that brenda's beliefs are stupid you need to bring principles you have to bring principles and so uh i mean it's nothing it's not i'm not putting you down joe i'm just saying you're ill-equipped to uh because brenda had explanations based on a materialistic worldview and you needed to go deeper into the metaphysics and get to those philosophical principles which are immutable eternal talk about causality talk about the difference between an infinite in actual infinity on a number line or in set theory and then uh composite physical objects which are always subject to cause and effect it's gonna the call's gonna end so we'll talk soon thanks for doing this all right peace out bye-bye have a good one bye

CVS Live Guest - 2022-05-29 - Aidan and Rebekah

god is the creator of the cohesion that's right it's true um we're live i'm here with aiden mid-sentence what's going on pontificating about the joys of baking they didn't hear any of that right no no no okay all right we're starting fresh we're starting fresh so how are you doing i thought the monkey joke was a little bit i was like oh not safe for work material right here doing good dude doing good we're on the cusp of change in our household um in a good way um yeah yeah i've been thinking about what i want to do transitioning out of um nursing in the hospital that i'm nursing and uh getting another nursing gig and so we're trying to move up a little bit more north but still stay south okay so so we're thinking in south carolina and i um have a job interview at this uh hospice center called agape and i'm like ooh that's that sounds up your alley vaguely catholic yeah um well with a word like agape and thrown in there yeah um so hopefully we'll be uh packing everything up and we'll be going up north oh man what a pain no man it'll be great it's gonna be beachside still so we're still we'll be we'll be uh in the charleston area nowhere wow that's a disgusting place full of rich people is it yeah there's like reality tv about that place i mean just be careful don't go to those parties don't go to those parties i've seen them on tv it's so funny everybody was telling us that about florida too um they're um one of my friends mike um my todd shout out buddy um he's just like uh you know threw out a bunch of warnings about florida's like florida's a really evil place i'm like actually florida was the most welcoming like uh mild uh jesus filled environment you could possibly be in and um like i don't know about where you're from but like do you guys um have like open anti-abortion like billboards and billboards about jesus yeah okay so like that like flood like fills the streets here so it's a pretty pretty cool place to i like that yeah i thought you might i thought you might yeah edgy edgy stuff but you know what though that the thing is is that it exists because it's not edgy down here it's just another um you know it's just another group of people that are just talking to themselves basically so otherwise otherwise it wouldn't exist because if if they had to fight everybody submits to cowardice and really myself like at the top of the list there um but you know i mean maybe that's just like the so they're preaching to the choir there yeah i mean um isn't that kind of how it always is a lot of the time yeah a lot of the time i mean like it's funny though because rachel and i we were on the beach today and this gentleman came up and started talking to us and uh everybody just thinks because we we are like crusty hippies and we look like crusty hippies they just automatically assume that we're like very democratic and liberal yeah and so they talk in this very presumptuous way and um and then we're always this they're like oh okay all right yeah yeah don't agree with that but okay and you know and it gives us this impression that that liberals expect everybody else to be liberal but we don't know if that's the case or if we're just very um like millennial looking i don't know i don't know what it are you a millennial yeah i am okay i think i am they're supposed to be the worst uh generation no offense well yeah i mean every generation is the worst generation because uh isn't jet what are we up to now gen z or j jenny are we really yeah it's looping back it's funny anyway i'm getting all this from the zoomers the zoomers say that the zoomers are the best that's what they say what's a zoomer they're [Music] should i look up the ages is it worth looking up the age ranges um yeah yeah i think so let's look up the age ranges this is a zoomer a baby boomer or no no no no no no no zoomers like in between a millennial and an alpha or a gen a it's in between there i have no idea what any of those things are i'm gen x yep the generation that wanted to befriend its children so everything anyways no i mean in like the worst way possible so here's here's how i see it so the baby boomers um baby boomers treated their um kids like garbage the gen x kids the gen x kids then over corrected by oh i want to be little michael's friend here's her trophy [Music] you know uh millennials and so on and so forth and so we just keep getting more and more issues by uh we're getting more neurotic and psychotic baby boomers were born between 46 and 64. okay gen x between 65 and 80. 10. i was born at 70. so i'm right in the middle of genex gen y or millennials were between 81 and 95 roughly okay when were you born 90. okay yeah you're firmly in the the gen y millennial thing but there are two kinds of gen y there's y point one y point two so um too much tim it's too much information okay gen z gen zed is born between 97 and 2012 if that's even possible and then those are the zoomers so they would be between nine and 24 years old and why do they think that we're the worst no no they think they're the best and that uh you know the millennials are yeah the millennials are the worst i don't know i don't know why um probably just sibling rivalry or something i don't know gotcha gen a is generation alpha it starts with children born in 2012. wow and it's going to go to 2025. i mean who who belong believes all this nonsense i don't know it's just another tool to use for divisiveness i suppose it's just uh it's once put people into camps one step up from astrology yeah i suppose so wasn't outlawed by the church though well i guess astrology is astrology dude did you know that um they're like some traditional factions of catholicism that um like back in the day used like astrology and they like believed in like reading things through the stars yeah yes i mean i just talked to a guy who's an unorthodox orthodox and he believes in that stuff yeah always wonderful and he believes in reincarnation too yeah that upset kieran karen was upset did it yeah curious should be upset because i mean there's plenty of of um work by the church fathers that says that reincarnation is not the truth it's incompatible with the faith it's incompatible with the faith yeah absolutely this guy had some strange ideas no no offense intended no but uh some strange ideas but i always let people know i don't always let people know when i disagree with them like i just interviewed a controversial controversial guest and i got some feedback about it mixed feedback i didn't you know i didn't go out of my way to make the guest feel awkward or to press the issues that we disagree about like for example kovid like we talked a little bit before going live and it was it was obvious uh we have different opinions but a lot of stuff a lot of stuff you know uh i don't always press press try to press people's buttons for no good reason but like if someone's like hey do you want to discuss this belief of mine and you know i'll never pretend like i agree like i'm like okay we're gonna talk about this okay so here's what i think and sorry if it hurts your feelings but this is my catholic belief you know what i mean but uh i like i like doing little mini battles like that as long as everyone knows they're getting into it but i wouldn't just be like hey so-and-so told me that you believe in this that's stupid i think you should do that i think it's an excellent approach i gotta work on my napoleon dynamite accent a bit but i pretty much i'm getting there i uh i've started watching i don't know why but i watch a lot of your stuff when i'm exercising so thank you david gets you up it does get me pumped no it's actually really nice to just to have something to listen to while you're while you're doing something you know something good for yourself but um what were you listening uh rebecca davis was the last one she was really cool she had a really cool attitude i didn't watch all of her stuff and because i i like it was towards the end of the workout that i started it and um i'm gonna be on her podcast uh next week oh that's cool man i'll have to i'll have to watch that um i i've briefly tried to like look her stuff up afterwards just to see and i could only find like a couple of oh gotcha it's not under her name um and i wanted to i just got the part where she's like yeah i don't really believe in hell and i'm like oh i really wanna i'm like gotta gotta open my ears for this one um but i didn't i didn't get i didn't i had to like stop it because i was just timing out and i'm like okay i'm all done here so i'll have to come back and visit this but she's so nice and um oh my god she's beautiful too and just really like yeah really cool and then it's just like all of a sudden just like antitypical to the gospel and then i'm just like wait i she supports so-called gay marriage too she does yeah gotcha gotcha man she's um well she also i i saw one of your car not one of your comments i saw a comment in the comment section that was just like you you think allah is the same as um as as uh our god basically yeah i could hear the anger in the person's like tapping the keys and i'm just like this must been a really good interview if you can you know upset that many people there wasn't that much there wasn't that much talk of islam although she did sort of travel and work with muslims and she she used to be a hard liner like whatever denomination she was uh like yeah this is what we have to believe and this and that and not very ecumenical but then her travels softened her and she started to think okay well different uh i mean i'll let her speak for herself you should definitely listen you should definitely listen to the whole thing because yeah she's a very interesting lady and uh just so personable and bright it was nice that you also had a lady on i know it's like a dude fest all day i don't know i know i'm just like dying to talk to women man it's like oh my god it's a woman it's like so amazing [Laughter] it's like such a rarity you know it's just like you have like just like these guys today you know the irony is i was talking to my little friend sid sid he's the little guy um cute little guy you can watch it i i interviewed him yesterday he's the second time i've interviewed him but we're at the end of his interview and i've got lena coming on and i don't have no idea who lena is but lena knows rebecca and i'm thinking okay and lena was very harsh with me in the comments saying oh i won't even stoop to debunk your stupid young earth creationism your anti-science whatever and a bit harsh like that and i'm like well hey let's talk about it you know so lena booked an interview but lena came on the live chat and i'm talking to sid and i always joke around with sid because he's a young guy he's very silly and he puts up with my stupid jokes and stuff like that and uh i'm like oh sorry sid i started interrupt but i just got in the live chat i got lena and i'm gonna interview lina after you so uh hey this is cool whatever and i'm like i said to sid i said lina's a girl's name right that's a girl's name right he's like yeah but he said in today's world you never hear no no you don't know i don't know even if it's a girl's name you don't know and i'm like oh let's not get into that come on don't spoil my buzz like i want to interview a woman you know and then lena in the chat's like i live in california and i'm like wow california girl like i'm getting all excited right and uh turns out turns out yeah did you see it no i didn't okay well there's that's the punches that's the punchline to be determined yeah nice guy really nice guy though really nice which one lena yeah lina okay yeah is a dude just a pretty shot anyway he's a nice guy i like him nice warm guy but anyway i don't want to get too deep into it but all i'm saying is all i'm saying is i and i got a lot of reaction from the from my listeners because you know some conservative christians and all that so gotcha awesome all right so i have to check out i got some negative feedback so one of my longtime friends and listeners was uh basically condemning me to hell that i'm a satanist and an anarchist because i didn't roast this this lena person in the in my interview like i was just very friendly a little bit flirty like i mean it's like you know you have to be everything to them david uh mother brother secret lover um anyway anyway whatever i mean it's just it's interesting it's my my whole point is here is that you know it'd be nice to have more women on the show and i really really love women i love their vibe i love their mystery i love their hair i love everything like you can tell by your own hair i like how they dress uh nihola nihola think knows about your love of women's hair as well who is that yeah nicola i i didn't know if the nicola he's always uh yeah he's always busting your child about your long flowy hair show me your hair it grows yeah and i'm all i'm all for it man i'm all yeah because you embrace your your feminine side but he's scared he's like i'm like gay because i find that david's hair sexy yeah well i'm always battling the uh it's always at work so you're gay right i'm like people you've worked for for 10 years and like you're still gay right you're still gay yeah no it's either um [Applause] yeah dude it's like but they're not afraid to ask me are you gpng what's gpng gay pretending not to be gay gay pretending not to be gay uh no no no i'm not my wife is not my beard i am but it's so funny though because i always have that like i have that soft look right so at work um i'm either uh like patients with dementia or violent patients in general like look at me they size me up and they're just like this guy's a weakling and they're just some men that you look at you're like i won't mess with this man i'm one of those men that either you mess with because you know that i'm in i'm inherently weak too too pretty or something i don't know to be able to defend myself which is true and um do those yoga moves i'm gay you do the sun salutation boom boom possess instant power instant strength so uh joe joe isn't sorry threw up but i got an urgent message from my sponsor joe in the comment section you know joe right little bold jewish guy anyway he's my friend okay he asked did you think lena was pretty and that was yeah he's asking you obviously because i've never seen obviously yeah can i just say yes yeah i'm just going to wait and say i said yes i said yes okay i showed i showed my wife i'm like this guy's cute and uh she's like i love your completely ejected objective ability because you you you uh to to to see the the the good looks you always you always tell karen and i that we're nice looking people and so it's always like it's just polite though i don't believe it i think i feel it i feel it uh right in the pit of your soul i i i fee when you say it i know you i know you're believing your words so yeah yeah it depends on the hair if you're having a good hair if you're having a good hair day or whatever right today today i'm wearing my spectacles today it's just a phase seven seven seven is good no dude seven to six seven i'm a six seven is good if i had my glasses if i had my contacts in uh the you got to keep the beard the beard is essential for you it's essential i can't remember what kieran's facial hair situation is uh he's like got like a goatee that grows outward but he doesn't he doesn't have sideburns so and me i don't have anything here so between the two of us we might have a full beard one day so uh yeah i love rating the beauty of men and women dogs goldfish like i mean it's just like anything else it's like show me two apples two tomatoes whatever it's like i love evaluating beauty i just love it and you know squeeze the tomato like oh my god this one's like perfect you know what i mean weird definitely no but you know it's so funny though because like a lot of people are attracted to catholicism because of beauty and i was never attracted to catholicism because of beauty i was actually attracted to it because of silence and reverence and i didn't realize that that was like those were those were traits included in in beauty but um a lot of people like you know see the see a landscape they're immediately um then brought into the sovereignty of god and they're like wow god is you know god is omnipotent god is is great god is good and me i'm just like oh son you know i'm just kind of i don't know i'm kind of stupid when it comes to that stuff but in the past couple years i've been praying for joy in the simple things and now when rachel and i go for walks it's half a joke but also half true um i'll hear a bird whistling or i'll see a flower and i'll go [Laughter] and run up to it gately you know which is again you know half a joke but also it's like pure mdama that you're consuming before these walks or mushrooms magic mushrooms acid what is it basically yeah it's the joy the joy of the lord and uh plus it makes rachel laugh so but i do like you know i do like um individual flowers whatever that's is you know moderately beautiful whatever i prefer the smell of a flower but when it comes to like oh look at this beach look at this mountain whatever it's like i can get a thrill for maybe half a second and it's just like i'm over it i'm over the beauty of nature in the landscape i'm just not that impressed sorry just not that impressed i'm more impressed by uh animals like humans and other animals so just like that's that's more exciting for me uh who was it um um catholic philosopher peter kreeft spoke about people that are interested um he had a book about about angels and i read this book when i was like 10. and um he said that uh statistically he noticed that people that are interested in creatures also have like this this this interest in um in angels as well so people that are fascinated by animals here on earth also have that that that angelic fascination do you do you have that yeah i mean uh yeah for sure but it's not it's not i i don't have the deep appreciation like um i do for humans like i mean i you know it's more much more intellectual with the angels than it is with the humans like i mean uh i i just have a more direct relatability to humans than i do to angels and it's more abstract and a bit colder and more disconnected with the angels but i do think about my guardian angel i try to you know pray to him i pray to it or i guess we could say him because relative no no no no you can assign the gender because from what i understand it's typically more male or more female traits i think i think they're named with male names right michael yeah all the ones that we know officially but some i have a um i have a book from joan joan cruz called angels and demons and she talks about people seeing their angels as male or female and i think women tend to see theirs as female more often and men tend to see theirs as male 1 um which like you know i kind of i think there's some kind of there's some credence to that you know um uh i don't know why but more comfortable more comfortable guys i'm more comfortable with guys like uh no i'm not saying like uh in real life but with if i would want my angel to be well probably because all the disgusting masturbation i've done i would probably want it to be a guy right i wouldn't want a woman watching that and what are you doing so uh do you reward your angel do you like offer specific prayers for him to go off and do things as a distraction no i mean like yeah i i always think about that i'm like oh man he saw the worst like all of like everything in detail and so sometimes i'm like okay like like you can take the precious blood um like if you went to mass that day i specifically picked the altar that's closest to me because i just really love my home priest and really just like the idea of like the local parish and so you know if i'm feeling particularly um not guilty but if i feel like oh um my guardian angel really put up with a lot today i'll say oh you know what father you know allow my guardian to uh i call him my big brother because that's essentially what he is let my big brother take the precious blood to somebody that he wants to take it to today as reward for his um you know fidelity to to youth through me yeah and i'm like i think that's a pretty cool thing because you know how often do you get to like play a part in the joy of your angel most of the time it's like sitting on a toilet you know and he's just there like you know it's just there like oh the patience of these angels man it's the patience of god it's the patience of god but we're gonna enjoy all the stuff even all the nasty stuff we're gonna enjoy it once we're in heaven understanding how it serves god's purpose and all that right so that's that's a real uh you know we're gonna have a different perspective on all the nasty stuff even war rape everything we're gonna see from god's perspective and how he allowed it because it's for the greater good to allow it and uh yes it's uh obviously regrettable that it happened but uh god in his wisdom allows it to happen obviously so um but i want to tell a little anecdote what happened today at church as you were speaking i was listening but i was also processing in the back of my head i got to tell my story i got to tell my story i got to tell my don't forget to tell your story don't forget the funny story so um the funny story is there's a woman okay so a bit of background we're at church and the organs playing and it's like beautiful like freaky psychedelic like it usually is with this guy's amazing right and uh i think it's messy ends or something like that the the composer it's just really wild music and uh anyway i just noticed today like it sounds even more psychedelic there's just like this sort of humming and i thought like what's going on like it says organ not tuned or something flapping like sounds like paper flapping or something anyway when uh when the uh this lady got up to sort of enter the catholic communion for the first time because she's raised baptized anglican uh the priest asked her up and you know he had told us beforehand this is going to happen but then at the end of the mass she came up and she had her little creed that she's going to read the creed like the full length whatever the proper apostles creed is called or whatever and uh the microphone sadly uh was giving that same papery effect like it sounded like you could barely hear what she's saying like on like on peanuts with that that when the parents are on the phone with the adults talk huh yeah exactly yeah but it kind of sounded funny like squeaky and whatever and so i was embarrassed i was laughing i was trying not to laugh like i mean practically in the front row and a row at church i'm trying not to laugh it's like embarrassing no one can hear it someone walked got up from the pew walked all the way to the front and it's like to the priest like no no no no we can't hear we can't hear anything so it was a bit of a disaster and i felt bad i felt bad for this this young lady she's probably 30 35 and uh anyway i waited out front in front of the church like a stalker and she came out with her husband and whoever the other guy it was and i'm like hey you're anglophone right because i could tell by a french accent she's anglophone so i just thank god i can speak english and so um i said hey congratulations like what were you reading because we couldn't hear it and i said uh she's like oh yeah i'm so sorry and whatever it's not your fault and i said and you but you're uh what did i say your donald duck impression is on point because it sounded like donald trump what she was saying this is a woman i just met that had this monumental occasion at church and i'm like oh but you're dumb so she was laughing but um the inviter on the show i did invite her on the show and she's like i'm a very private person but thank you for the offer and it's like i just felt like oh come on man don't don't be a dweeb like come on anyway that's what i thought that's what i thought but i was you know as awesome you know i'm a little bit kooky right so when i cornered her outside and at first she's like oh thank you yeah and we joked around a little bit and then i started ranting and raving about the catholic church and the anglican church and the reading and like oh you know the history of the church and i talked about the church militant church suffering church triumph it just went on and on and on her eyes are glazing over and she's her husband's patiently standing there waiting and i i guess i realized a little bit too late that i'm just like rambling but i thought okay this is a new convert to the face she's gonna be on fire she's gonna be excited whatever but she's basically just like uh i did this so that i could be the godmother to my uh whatever you know so it's basically just it's basically just like okay you could be the godmother but you're gonna have to get uh you know enter full communion with the catholic church that's the rule okay so i'll do it and she's like yeah the church is important because good sense of community and all it's just like oh come on come on i don't do i want to hear a sense of community come on you're joining the catholic church for the sense of community really i know there's so many there's so many better communities to join like there's so many better ones out there i don't want to disparage this woman's character i may you know i may be having fun with it exaggerating a little bit here but it's just storytelling but i love her i wish her well i hope she's on fire for the faith and she just thought who's this freak it's not his business right well you know and and it's also the best place for her to accidentally end up and catch fire so like so like who knows man maybe she'll just be sitting there one day and she'll like suddenly get gobsmacked by something that like really didn't ever penetrate before at her anglican church and she'll be like whoa this is the truth yeah but she never even attended anglican church that's the thing like she well from what i understand from what i understand she's just sort of like loosely christian i don't i don't want to judge her but i got the impression i got the impression like either i'm way too much and she's just normal or like uh she is actually kind of lukewarm but i don't know i don't want to judge i don't want to judge her especially since i told her about my podcast she's probably listening to this right now going yes that's exactly what she did she thought that that awkward encounter was so awesome that she went home she youtubed you said cbs podcast sift through all the cbs drugstore uh nonsense to find this one live stream and now she is she is in attendance and she's just like how do i get into the live chat to tell this douche that he needs to rethink how i feel you know i i single-handedly gave her the gift of tears that's pretty good that's right listen you know uh when it comes to uh someone entering the catholic church as an adult i want enthusiasm i want you to be pumped up like this is it man i'm in i'm in wow it's god's church like how that how did i get in you know that's how i felt and uh if you if you haven't listened to my interview with pine sap he's like 21 years old pine sap is that a new one it's a new one bald yeah short hair military haircut whatever sweetheart sweet heart and a gentle kind soul polite guy he lives in some red state um he's uh he's on fire like he's on fire for the i love to see it he's that's awesome voracious reader he knows he's digging deep into vatican too he loves vatican too he loves pope francis i'm like what is happening in my world we've got so cool young catholics who are hardcore and they love tradition and they love the living magisterium the pope and the vatican too what is happening this is like a dream come true i've been dying i've been waiting ten years to have this combination of tradition and living magisterium it just it's it's like a miracle i'm so excited and he's excited that's what's even more that's i feel like i gotta jump myself up david yeah no i well my prayer of like my personal prayer approach lately has been uh taking a turn for something better um i would say because um you know rachel and i don't have children so like a couple months ago i was thinking like really thinking about it i'm like well if you just go to work and you come home you like hang out with your wife and you do your thing like why are you not more devoted like why aren't you more devoted to your prayers why aren't you um why aren't you being a better husband why aren't you like because i always thought like yeah when i'm old i'll go to daily mass and it's just like why why don't you do that now type of thing and um daily mass isn't really in the cards for me but practicing mental prayer um reading the daily scriptures reading the desert fathers trying to practice some kind of ascetic discipline with a little bit more rigidity a little bit more focus um inter you know intercessory prayer for others like doing these things consistently and not just like you know my haphazard rosary or two a day that's like you pray whenever type of thing and then i was like oh we're good we're covered i just you know pop this thing out and um so for the past couple months i've been fine-tuning and kind of um structuring um a prayer a prayer regimen for myself um that as um you know uh originally it was i started making it because i wanted to know about um about contemplation like infused contemplation and um and all the sources say well you can't get to infused contemplation unless you um are prepared like preparing yourself for you can never gain it yourself but you can always ready yourself for it and then um i didn't realize it but i've been reading a lot of stuff on spiritual warfare and the demonic i've been reading father of morth um his one an exorcist explains the demonic not that one i mean i have that one but uh um an exorcist shares this story i think it is and um i'm like oh what what is this and the more that i'm like diving into this prayer rule i've been developing for myself the more i see like this piece that all human beings are craving and they're searching for in yoga they're searching for it in eastern philosophy they're searching for it in eastern meditative practices it's actually found in full and developing um uh a prayer practices in accordance with the church but also the other the flip side of that the other side of the coin is having a very real having a very real sense of spiritual warfare and engaging in that and it seems very very strange because when we think of like peace when we think of like um happiness like when you do think of like like the buddhist like greens and like chill ah trickling water breathe in breathe out kind of stuff and so you're like yeah that's peace and not um like when you read you know uh the spiritual combat um it's like oh yeah all of life is a war and you're going to be waiting waging that war till the day that you die you you see those two things and you think i'll take the green grass running water and not the the warfare bit and um it's funny because the warfare is where the peace actually is and the other one is where the dangers where the dangers are and so it's been really cool um even just like getting my toes wet in like the catholic theology um that looks unappealing from the outside but yeah very cool very cool insight very cool insight and i believe it 100 i believe it because you know uh satan wants us to be asleep love no no no no go back to sleep don't worry about that war no the other people are taking care of it the big people are taking care of it don't go back to sleep okay so that's satan's role basically uh with the green grass and the running water not to demonize these practitioners of these religions but um you know satan wants us asleep or drunk or intoxicated with you know romantic love or whatever it is whatever is sedating us and keeping us down and so uh jesus says to be sober to be awake and [Music] i come not to bring peace but a sword right but when you hear that like you're like ah what's the other thing again about being asleep you know like sleep feels so much better than picking up your sword every day and then like you know especially when your sword is not looking at beautiful women or um not being a coward in the face of some kind of issue that like you have to speak up about or being obedient to your supervisor or not um not being angry and catty at a person that's um really really mean you know like it's like oh man why is that spiritual warfare why can't it be like why can't it be just like physical training but um or a chess match or something or a chat no i can't do that i'm not that good but but the more dude and the more that i keep reading and god there's no way around this you do have to have a strategy for um for the whole process like you can't just go into it saying like i'm just gonna pray and i'm just gonna do this and everything will take care of itself i mean we can step into the arena that way but like it's re you know what i mean like that's okay god will take any effort that you give him and he'll reward it and slowly peer us off to where we need to be but i'm getting to this point where i'm like okay i have these specific areas of deficiency and i need to pick um the worst one and head that off now and beat that one by degrees and then i need to get to the second one and that one you know what i mean like there is like that that's the best way to do it when my wife and i watch crossfit and we watch those competitions they're not just training arbitrarily and like you know beating at the air they're doing specific regimented actions so that they have strength in all of these different fields and to expect not to have to do that in the spiritual life would be naive for sure for sure we watched anna and i watched uh william shatner show about it's called the unexplained and this episode was about uh extreme sports in particular running long distance ultra american culture running ultra running yeah ultra fascinating it was fascinating um it's such a pure sport like running it's just i feel like i feel pain in my lower back just thinking about running because i used to run five miles a day like very casually when i was in my early 20s and even then my back would be like oh it's getting like just compressed it's just not i just don't have a healthy backbone my sister died because of uh spina bifida so it's like maybe something in my in my genetics about bad posture and bad weak backbone all that sort of thing but um uh uh uh i just had i thought okay that was one thought but there's another thought that i had anyway the extreme sports thing is pretty cool with the discipline and all that uh but there's this other idea i want to bounce off you which is that i just sort of had an insight about cooperation i always talk about from my ivory tower oh we have to cooperate with god's grace and this and that it's true it's true but i just realized how to do it which is like more concrete and i have to thank satan for this because he showed me what it means to cooperate with god by showing me how i cooperate with him with satan so it's a very good uh epiphany i had it's like why in the past two years why have i been sliding into you know bad habits you know looking at stuff i shouldn't be looking at stuff like that um and i thought okay well it's because i'm no longer having custody of my eyes like i'm indulging when i see some chicks cleavage i just look and i shouldn't be doing that because that's like feeding the demons and then i'm ready for the next stage so i realized like there's this whole thing about like a little cheating here a little cheating there or if it's with you know self-indulgence with food or laziness or whatever um i see now i can see you know first of all why you avoid the near occasion of sin but i can now see the that idea of the head of the serpent you let the head of the serpent and the rest of the body can easily slide in and follow in and i i see i'm starting to see now by the grace of god and with confession and stuff like that that this weakness that i've been experiencing over the past two years since covid has given me more insight into how to cooperate with evil and i suddenly realize that that applies for the good side too like right what is it to cooperate with god's grace well you get you get given a little opportunity right and you think oh that's not much right just like with the sin you think well this is not a big sin this is not even a sin this is just sort of uh delectation it's just sort of like it's just a little something and you know in the back of your mind like well it could lead to more but i won't go there of course i won't go there right um so it's the same thing when cooperating with god's graces it's just that little it's just a little tiny grace like i mean there's nothing to get excited about but if you take the opportunity that's there and then there's oh wait there's like a slightly bigger opportunity and a slightly bigger one and then before you know it it's like big graces right so this is an insight i had maybe it's um embarrassing that i hadn't realized this sooner the sort of parallel between obeying satan little by little by little and then before you know it you're in mortal sin and then on the other side with god just say yes to the little graces and they'll get bigger and bigger and bigger and then before you know it you're having a transformation in your prayer life and in your ability to focus have clarity have peace have joy all these things the gifts of the holy spirit yeah that sounds right to me um like it's kind of like having a room with a bunch of doors in it and like a bunch of doors are opened and water is spilling into the room and filling it up and most of the time that's just sin it's just like all the the worldly things that we really like to engage in and um it's really easy if you keep those doors open then you're just gonna have all this sin pouring in but if you start closing those doors off by practicing the virtues by practicing prayer by by frequenting the sacraments those doors shut and then what can you do you start opening windows you know like you probably do a lot of religious reading and i do i do as well i do a lot of like reading like in a leisurely fashion but i'm also on my phone all the time too they're like just kind of like doing whatever i want on my phone and so i'm like okay well if i close the door of my phone and i just decided to pick up my book a little bit more that like is explicitly catholic whether or not the book is incredibly spiritually edifying warning warning explicit catholic material warning yeah you know like just any kind of like like right now i'm reading like like the father of moore's book it's just so it's just so catholic you know there's just no there's just no denying it but if you're constantly filling your mind um or you're filling this room you know with something of the faith um and you're like closing it off to the things of the world before you know it the room is is being completely filled with all of these good healthy things that we actually you know actually need need for ourselves and so that kind of that i see what you're saying about letting a little bit of grace pour in because then a little bit more pours in and a little bit more and a little bit more and before you know it you're flooded by it hopefully well this is what they say uh you know these people that are into the whole uh you know new science the new physics oh so exciting right in the early 20th century whatever and all the books that were written popularizing the new physics and wow uh but they taught one idea that i carry with me from that reading that garbage is that it's not all garbage but it's a lot of philosophical blather but um one of the things i carry with me is that idea of everything is traveling at the speed of light whether it's true or not isn't my point but the idea that there's uh uh two axes there are two axes uh and it's between space and time and so it's a proportion some percentage is travel through space and some percentages travel through time this is the relativity theory the general relativity theory i think or special i can't remember um of einstein so it's basically the the conclusion is everything's traveling at the speed of light is just different proportion of space or time because there's space time right this is what einstein believed this was his model and i think a lot of it's garbage but whatever uh so applied to the spiritual world i like to think of that same uh two axis system where it's like good and evil right even though evil has no substance but it's like good in the lack of good whatever and so what you're saying about like hey let's replace some of our calendar blocks or at least time blocks of certain days let's just replace some of those moments or small time blocks just swap some of the bad ones out or the mediocre ones or the even the neutral ones out swap the neutral ones out for uh catholic like you said 100 guaranteed explicit catholic content right and what can go wrong i mean nerd alert is what i said because it is it's just so lame but you know and making i actually made an excel graph back when i was on fire for my faith two years ago uh an excel spreadsheet was just like 15 minute blocks of every waking moment of every day like okay and now i'm doing spiritual reading now i'm doing my prayers now i'm at daily mass now i'm doing this and uh it was unmanageable just to like it's just like my whole life is just spent updating this freaking database it's just like forget it you know whatever and then my whole life went to hell because it's just like a lukewarm loser but did it catch the database i should have kept the database yeah that would have felt good living by that well it's funny that you did that though because that's basically just the prayer rule of a monk you know their whole their whole day is um like regimented into these different sections where they try like this time is dedicated to matins and this time is dedicated to mass and this time is for your personal reading and this time is for a nap and this time is for a communal meal and this time is for like just you know like leisure and this time and and i'm like oh that's really that's really cool because then their whole day becomes this this opportunity to produce um you know or to receive the gift of contemplation and uh and i'm like actually every person in like the married state can like can operate you know in a similar in a similar manner and it's uh but you know then you take it you try to do it you're like this sucks this sucks a lot because like if you want to wake up or i don't know if you wake up a little bit earlier to say your prayers but i wake up a little bit earlier to say my prayers and like every time i'm like i want coffee and i want food and i want youtube all before i start saying my prayers that's that's what i want and so because i'm willing to wake up a little bit earlier for my prayers i'm like alright give yourself the coffee the food on the youtube and then and then say your prayers and um it's good but it's so pathetic dude because i'm just like feed senses you know and and then it's like and then god you know um just do it for god you know like like your favorite little flower there just do it for god and that's right i have to i have to say uh i may have embarrassed myself because bread of life is in the live chat that's rebecca oh cool so uh she says hi guys she says you're so hard on yourself because she she thinks that we catholics you know were dwelling on sin and if you watch her entire interview she has a pretty cool saying she says i don't have time for thinking about how sinful i am because i'm so damn holy she didn't say damn but she said because i'm so holy i don't have time to dwell on my sinfulness because i'm just too busy being holy do you know the story of the two monks the two desert monks right they both commit the same sin of fornication right so they go off to their um to their superior and the superior says to them okay so your punishment you're both gonna go off into yourselves for a full year i'm gonna give you bread and water to last you for a full year and you're both gonna um you're both gonna uh commit yourselves to acts of pen um penance and so a year goes by and the one comes out and he is beaming like a sunshine and like he's just look at this guy and the other guy is like just emaciated and thin and tears coming down his face and just like uh so they both go up to their to the superior and he said how'd you guys fare and the one says to him ah i spent my whole year praising god for forgiving me for my sins and i feel great and the other dudes just like i spent the whole year fasting and beating my breasts and lamenting and mourning my sins and the superior said both of what you did was acceptable in the eyes of the lord and so that gave us the option right so bread of life what up you're looking at the the stupider yeah self-congratulation always me yeah oh such a sinner i'm a bigger sinner than you aiden yeah you are oh yeah that's agreed yeah if you want to outdo each other in humility you win buddy i don't care i don't like like i can't i can't even pretend to be humble wow that's like 5d chess like oh i'm not even going to compete against you because you got me beaten already yeah dude i've heard davidson's everybody they're gross [Applause] it's true it's true it's not dude it's just so i just love the idea of like somebody going up to like a priest like father i did such and such and instead of being like warm and welcoming he's like oh you did this you're going to hell get out of here just go if he does it with the napoleon dynamite voice like exactly that's gross oh he's not a valley girl though but ridiculous no but i mean it is it is you know it i have to admit uh bread of like well not bread of life but rebecca did kind of gently show me an example like how to be christian like i don't have to be self-obsessed with what a loser i am you know what i mean it's refreshing it's very refreshing and uh i mean you you you seem balanced aiden to me balanced but a little bit like me just a little bit self-critical like me you know what i mean okay sure yeah um yeah dude um people tell me i'm happy at work all the time like how are you so happy and i'm like what are you talking about like i don't i don't know you know but that's all i've been praying for really is just like if i'm not like i don't feel good but i want other people to feel good when they're they're around me so it's like i i don't know if i'm doing something right or not but i can read you well read your memoirs it'll be like uh saint teresa of calcutta it's like god abandoned me and i was like you know she she was there like with the beautiful smile and i love her wrinkles and everything and and but she was suffering on the inside because she felt abandoned she felt you know um so rebecca says she's always doing this to me it's like just keeps doing this to me she says you guys are shining in righteousness many don't care if they are sinful but the fact that your sin disturbs you shows your righteousness so she'll always do this she'll always take my frown and turn it upside down and she'll just say hey like you know maybe you don't need to be dwelling on that whatever it's just it's very simple it's very uh it's very positive and i take it i take it seriously as a divine providence you know when you meet uh people that have a refreshing perspective she really does exercise her vocation as a mother it seems because that's such a that's such a um comforting thing but it's such a comforting thing and my grandmother was like that i'm gonna i'm gonna expose my uncle mark for a second because he loves this story um but when he was battling an addiction with alcohol years ago he got drunk and he crashed his car into a telephone pole and then he went to like later on he he drove to my grandmother's house because you know everybody would just congregate there to get tea and biscuits and she's like she came out to the door to greet him and um she's like oh mark what happened to your car and he like looks back oh yeah i got drunk and wrapped it around a pole and she's like oh come on in fatigue and just very like but not like a sweep under the rug kind of attitude just kind of like huh well let's feed you and there's just this kind of busy breezy effortless unwillingness to look at the faults of others and just saying okay come come come come to me let me let me let's take care of you and yep yeah a total realist acknowledgement of like yes this happened and yes we're here and this is what this is how we're going to move on like i mean we're she's in the moment yep and she's like this is what we're gonna do and it's not to condone anything or to pretend it never happened or whatever right because like i'm from i'm from ontario canada where there there's a little bit of a repressive vibe like hey let's not talk about that and you're shirley's coming over and we don't want to talk about that thing and you know what i mean it's just disgusting and not to disparage anyone's character but it's just sort of like a it's a cultural thing right it's uh it's part of the reason i moved to quebec quebec is a catholic culture everyone's more just like italian like hey vinnie why are you such a bonehead or whatever you know i mean that catholic right the catholic way right right so it's more uh it's one hundo p catholic yeah let it hang out and it's like yeah we're sinners whatever you know past the potato chips whatever it's just like more casual and less uptight like buttoned up christian thing right right so uh rebecca has sort of like the best of both worlds because she's like cool and like you know like zen and like in touch with their christian faith but not uptight and you know i'm not saying rebecca is perfect but there you know there's something to be uh to be learned from her example i think um yeah my buddy would always joke at the yoga studio um because this is the cliche thing to say it's all about balance you know it's just it's all about balance which is just the cheesiest thing but it really there really is something about developing a flow and a balance with everything um it's true that's uh that makes something that makes something appealing um being i guess i was always taught to be harsh to yourself and then um easy on others around you and that always seemed to be a very catholic way of being where you made sure you know that log was pulled out of your eye and you didn't go looking you know for specs and other in other people's you just you know um acknowledge your own unrighteousness and then try to love everybody else around you regardless of circumstances 100 i mean this is hard it's it's intuitive for me even though you know as everyone who knows my podcast knows i'm very selfish self-centered whatever but but part of that part of that the good side of that the silver lining for that is that all the all the tendency that a lot of rad trads have to stick their nose in someone else's business and say those people are evil i don't have that i just don't have that it's like i'm legitimately concerned about number one and it really is it really is more important to me that i go to heaven and that i get right with god personally then saying oh my god did you hear what aiden said that's not that's not catholic that's not god i think is it and it's like you know it's it just so happens that i'm a good fit for catholicism because all of the saints always teach me you cannot feel superior to any human being well they don't say you can't feel superior you can't think yourself superior i often make this distinction yeah i feel superior yeah sure i feel superior but it's just a feeling right but god though dude god forbid that i think or believe right that i'm superior the the trad community like i find myself gravitating towards a lot of like trad material that actually it makes me feel more peaceful like there's certain things but but then i don't know how they take it and they just they just ruin it they just absolutely they use it for evil i dude the more that i see senses fidelium on youtube the more i just want i just want to take that production down i just hate it so much um like they he the last thing i unfollowed them and i just i'm like i can't do you anymore like they had a thing about condemning women who wear pants and i was just like and they it's just so oh it is just so gross and it's like who you know somebody in the comments said something like padre pio hated one woman woman wore pants and it's like padre p lived in the 1800s and died in 1968 so he would hate pants and uh you know uh he also smoked cigarettes and and used tobacco products but that didn't make that correct that didn't make that good it just meant that that's what he believed he was a holy man despite you know his flaws but you kind of have this group of people that like really get into their their like ideas about everything and ironically they fetishize fetish fetishize women in veils and head coverings like the the the it's so funny to me they're just like yeah women shouldn't wear pants but then in their videos they just have like the pictures that play to like the the um to like whatever sermon they have they just they rotate between photographs and it's always beautiful women dressed in this like traditional catholic garb and it's just like you do realize that's just as pornographic in some ways as as um you know condemning that girl for wearing yoga pants or just wearing regular pants in general right and um i just i can't stand it dude i just want to go right for the i just want to go right for for the jugular with those with those guys sometimes because they're just so uh can you imagine can you imagine how jesus christ felt walking around jerusalem with those pharisees and sadducees and scribes and zealots and oh my god yeah but he tore them a new one he was awesome he like that's why jesus was so cool in a lot of those circumstances he was just like let me set a trap for you and then they're like and they fall and then jesus is like deuces breath and he like turns around and hightails it out of there with his bros you know and that happens more times than not where i'm like looking at jesus like tear apart the pharisees i'm like good job hey i just had an idea you want to challenge the census fidelium no no no no no no rebecca just said imagine how us women feel so i'm gonna send her about pants i'm gonna send her the link and she can meet you and she can oh there's the link rebecca click the link join the call just for just for five minutes just to say hi to aiden we're waiting click the link rebecca click the link now not at all creepy not at all creepy do you like candy little girl we've got candy oh she said okay one minute the candy thing worked i figured her out now okay yeah she didn't see it because she was reading the email but if she goes back to yourself rebecca likes candy okay good okay anyway i'm just being silly i miss yeah absolutely i'm a silly sinner where's my whip i'm gonna whip myself flagellate self-flagellate are you hot dude yeah i'm hot and sweating i can tell yeah rebecca has that effect on me and don't give me the celsius crap how hot is it with you today in fahrenheit uh uh [Music] weather hey hey siri tell me the weather just kidding i don't have siri whether they're 23 celsius that's not fahrenheit you can switch it to 73 fahrenheit okay and that's what it is right here that's 72. hey yes rebecca yeah hey aiden rebecca rebecca how are you it's nice to meet you you too thank you have you been watching this whole thing no i just came in whenever i i think it was probably maybe 10 to 15 minutes ago when i came in good good so i'm not sure where the conversation started i was gushing about your beauty before you started watching so when you watch it back i'm going to be embarrassed but all right oh and i told him it was weird no but aidan really likes you too uh it's not just me so yeah i was telling david i started watching your your interview when i was um i was exercising and i didn't it was just the end of it and so i didn't i only watched like 20 or 30 minutes maybe and i got to the point where you're like yeah i don't really believe in hell and i'm like clincher and i didn't get to follow up on that so maybe you can maybe you can talk about that for a second oh well i would but i want us to have a fun conversation david's blood pressure is going to go up if we talk about that oh no i gave i i may have exaggerated a little bit but anyway uh yeah we won't dwell on that but uh basically i want to know i'm curious i'm like i would say she's an annihilationist if that's the correct term annihilationist yes and the reason and i can just give a two-minute summary uh the reason that i believe that there is no eternal conscious torment is because of the way the bible talks about the afterlife several hundred times the contrast that's given is life versus death it talks throughout the old testament about the destiny of the wicked being destruction and that the wicked will be no more now so you know this idea that they're going to be tormented on and on for eternity well then we can't say they've been destroyed we can't unless we like redefine the word death and redefine the word destroy into meanings that we never use in english and they don't use them in hebrew and they don't use them in greek and so we we have to like totally redefine words that have very simple meanings like death and destruction so um you know there's very little biblical support you can maybe take two verses from the bible and say that it even mentions eternal conscious torment and those are both in revelation which is a highly um metaphorical book there are symbols throughout so it's very to me um unwise to take two verses out of revelation and make those to be the literal afterlife of eternal conscious torment when we have hundreds of verses from non-metaphorical you know narratives and you know i mean different you know theological descriptions that clearly contrast life versus death if the wicked are being eternally tormented they're alive they just have a really sucky life right so um this is you know whoever forgot to love the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life so the contrast there is clear and it's not heaven versus hell yeah that's not as controversial as what i thought never mind that's a that's a word i'm thinking like like i didn't universalism but i only caught like well yeah um but at the beginning of the interview david said something about you being a universalist but you said no no i'm not i'm not a universalist so i didn't um think that to be the case wait can can you um as a catholic like what is the thought about annihilationism it's uh heretical the punishment of hell lasts for all the the punishment is uh the punishment of hell lasts for all eternity it's a defeated dogma the punishment of hell lasts for all eternity we have uh biblical references here daniel 12 2 book of wisdom 419. judith 16 21 matthew 18 8 25 41 jude 7 we've got matthew 25 46 2 thessalonians 1 9 matthew 3 12 mark 9 14 mark 9 45 and following matthew 25 46 i think already said that apocalypse 14 uh more references i think you missed some david well this is just this is just i don't think you can see my book but it's just i'm just i'm being i'm being facetious you were very lots and lots it goes on and on it's like two pages worth of stuff here and the fathers the fathers of the church and this sort of thing but hey let's not talk about that this is like a buzzkill i want to talk about i don't think it was a buzzkill at all i thought it was very interesting talking about eternal torment i'd like no but it's interesting let's just get rebecca's impression of this fine young man aiden my friend what impression do you have of him well uh like i i said in the chat you know it i just i'm absolutely blown away by you guys righteousness and it delights me so much to hear you talking about wrestling with your sin you know striving to live a godly life striving to set aside time for god and this is just beautiful you know there's uh you know a thousand youtube channels i could turn on right now and they would be blaspheming god or not talking about worldly things doing all kinds of other stuff but it's just you know your your righteousness is shining forth in that your your efforts to live a godly life so i just i love the conversation so aidan i'm thank you for being a righteous son of god and i'm i'm glad to to meet you i uh a couple of years ago i was walking out of class with a bunch of um ladies we were in nursing school and i had my rosary in my hand i was really angry at somebody and i was like oh there's such a bag of and uh they they laughed hysterically because i was holding my rosary in my hand they're just like man that's horrible and i'm just like look i didn't promise to be better than you this is because i'm worried because i'm worse than you okay like i need i need this and so there's no righteousness it's all just like i just understand that i'm like uh i really need i really need the lord and if i didn't i would be so far gone it would be it'd be unreal well and that's the beautiful thing you know i think sometimes it the the the worst sinners the that we are it's so much easier to come to jesus right i mean people all the time that are like hey i'm a good person why would i need jesus i could you know i i don't you know i don't need anyone to do that i you know do this for my kids i do this for my wife i'm a good person you know i don't do anything wrong and i'm like okay well you can't see your need for jesus but you know a lot of us do and so it's it's a beautiful thing to know your need for the savior and so that's you know many people are are doing what you were doing but not seeing their need for a savior you know yeah i guess that's true and then and then i feel i feel more inclined to like pray for those those people too because um they're missing out and it's uh it's always and it's always cool to see people like david um david's always in a similar boat he's just more vocal about it than than a lot of us and uh uh david kind of wrangled a bunch of like-minded folks together and actually to his credit a bunch of people that are completely unlike-minded so it's it's always it's always cool coming on the cvs channel and uh seeing seeing the newer things also the narcissistic side of me sees my own self on there frequently and my brother who's i feel like as an extension uh an extension of myself um but uh yeah you're i can't wait to watch the rest of your interview um what do you what do you do for a living are you um uh you said you were living in different like muslim communities were you doing um like missionary work well i mean it depends how you define missionary i do always think of myself as a missionary my husband has been the provider of the money and i've been you know doing most most of like most of the time for the past 18 years i have been either at home with my kids or doing ministry full-time uh i did have a just a job for you know four months or so but other than that i've been full-time ministry that's probably going to change actually i'm going to apply to catholic charities here pretty soon awesome yeah that's awesome have you gone to mass before oh yes yes okay i was going to say have you have you seen because um uh have you seen like the book of revelation play out in mass have you seen the similarities of that like the language that's used in in the book of revelation and then and then the relationship there i i have never thought about it that way why don't you explain it i'm not very good at explaining it there's the marriage of the lamb yeah the marriage yeah the marriage of the lamb um scott hahn is this really he i think he was a i think he was a methodist but i can't really remember i can't really remember what his denomination was but a real lover of the bible just a really cool dude um he was a preacher for a long time very anti very anti-catholic when he was in school he started picking up the church fathers and just became immersed in the in them and then started like sneaking into mass and started seeing the bible played out in the mass and um just seeing like just how steeped it was in scripture and then he wrote a book called the marriage supper of the lamb and i read that but i everything that i read i just quickly forget i whatever i read it has to be short and it has to be really simple because i'm just i'm not like my attention span's really bad so um i picked the shortest theological treaties because uh um you know i can't really i can't really do anything different but yeah um so the charity work that you're gonna do what kind of what what line is it is it going to be like homeless or well i'm hoping to be able to work with refugees and that's you know what i was doing in turkey when we lived in turkey and so i was you know doing a couple different things to help refugees and uh in particular refugees from afghanistan because i speak persian so i can communicate with them that's awesome that's so cool yeah did you have a lot of exposure to like the orthodox um community while you were um uh you know in the middle east there's a lot of not too much i i have been to you know at orthodox churches a few times and my favorite professor in seminary was orthodox oh that's cool yeah so he he was a protestant and he had he converted to orthodox and so i got a lot of exposure to the orthodox church through him because he just loved like the icons and you know and the church fathers and so he he was really just um you know kind of you know kind of preaching orthodox church stuff to us so it was fun that's cool is your husband in the ministry too um my husband no he is a linguist he he speaks like seven languages and working on his eighth um so he he does work for the government and uh so that's what's like taking us to other countries and stuff so that's awesome but he's gonna learn ecclesial latin and talk to david about hebrews i don't speak latin but i love david you speak latin but your husband believes like you the same the same like you believe pretty much rebecca yeah okay we're the same on everything except for young earth creation oh really um yeah he doesn't believe in evolution okay um i i would have never married him if he believed in evolution like that was like i i like i was like that was like one of the first things i asked when we were dating like do you believe in evolution oh no and i'm like okay wow cool all right we're we're good um do you wait do you wait do i believe in i don't know what i believe dude i was talking to my uncle about this the other day because we were talking about your your interview actually and my uncle was just listening to it as well rebecca and mm-hmm yeah and uh he was really enjoying it i don't know why david cares so much about evolution never did anything for me like just like never you know considered it and i'm like yeah i'm the same way but i like to tell people i'm a young earth creationist just to irritate them like i like the idea of like providing somebody health care and um like they think that i'm competent and then i'm just like dinosaurs were fake and then they're just like what was that last part and then then they're immediately afraid that i'm going to administer the wrong medication so are you a doctor then god no no i'm a nurse oh cool they don't know you couldn't pay me enough to be a doctor and i'm not smart enough clearly i'm just like no no i don't believe that but yeah that's cool though um that's that's a it would be wonderful to have that skill it must feel just so wonderful to be able to help people who are physically suffering do you enjoy your work i do it's the most satisfaction that i've ever had with a job it was um it was hell the first year that i did it it was so i would go to work and be afraid that i was going to kill somebody and it was just a nightmare i wanted to get out of it and um then i found this miracle drug called celexa and celexa really helped it was just like one of those things from like oh my anxiety levels are just so through the roof and um prayer wasn't helping um nothing was really doing anything and i was still like keeping up with my spiritual life i wasn't like out of detriment or out of neglect but i'd find that i'd go to work he'd work 13 hours or close to 14 hours and then i'd have off for a three day stretch and i couldn't purge myself of of my work day i was just so so stressed out and i went to my healthcare provider and was talking to them about it i'm like i guess i can i can try some kind of medication option and i even felt it before my guardian angel has just tapped me on the shoulder several times and said you need drugs and and it's true you know god works through very ordinary very ordinary means and ever since i um started taking a little bit better care of myself and um you know got a medication that worked for me my anxiety levels just dropped down low and i was able to come to work and deal with um deal with circumstances in a uh in a way that worked for me but i started nursing in the covid um pandemic so i thought i was going into orthopedics and i ended up on the floor where people were um unable to breathe and so it's like um that's a major difference you think you're dealing with knee and hip replacement elective surgeries and then you come in and um wow and then you know um you're you're basically stopping people from from uh from dying and uh it's you know i didn't feel like i had any of the the tools necessary to help anybody when i first began but it's changed it's changed a lot and i've grown very comfortable in the role but floor nursing is a um very very stressful job um but i do work for a good hospital that allows us um to incorporate our faith into our care and so um um that was that's very special there's chaplains everywhere um there's crucifixes in every room um you can like you can consult um chaplains of all different faiths um whenever there's a priest around i can i can go to confession i can you know request the anointing of the sick for somebody you can you can there's just so much there's just so much um there that's available for people that um in normal secular hospitals you wouldn't have do people scream and cry when they're at uh in the hospital and really sick or do they just quiet oh yeah they screaming oh dude it's it's no no it's um so orthopedic pain is like the worst you know i know that if i get somebody under the age of 40 they're typically going to be the the more difficult ones to deal with because old people know how to deal with pain and um so like well i see tons of motorcycle accidents um and like what they don't tell young men about motorcycle accidents is if you have pelvic trauma um you have external organs that get hurt too and so like i think if every man knew the actual consequences of of pelvic trauma they would probably ditch their motorcycles um but so yeah it's really terrible so they scream in pain and agony all day and then and then you have you have two two ends of the spectrum you have young people that are in the um the traumatic accidents and then you have the older people that might have like memory care issues um dementia and they'll break their hip and so when somebody has a broken hip that's another incredibly painful issue and so you have people you know screaming in pain just laying there before they're fixed and then screaming in pain when they're trying to do regular activities um of daily living like just going to the bathroom so getting somebody up onto a bedpan and if they have um bilateral lower extremity fractures and one of their shoulders is broken and they have one good arm you know trying to get that person onto a bedpan um it's a joke it's just it's so excruciating and um so they're okay let's talk about hell again because hell is a lot more a lot more pleasant to talk no but the secret is this when i go in and i meet my patients first thing in the morning i offer them caffeine and i offer them sugar and i find that if i give them if i give them coffee and if i give them something sweet popsicles it literally like night and day difference so i don't know if jesus is behind that phenomenon um it's either jesus or it's it's just our addictive tendencies but i like to i like to think that jesus is the one um bringing the uh the coffee the coffee to everybody because they are there meds that will kill pretty much any pain like heroin or what do they call it the lotted is the is the the main player in there dalotta is the one that um that uh usually knocks out pain but it's it's got a really quick half-life so you inject somebody with that and then in an hour they're there um they're feeling it again but um i had i have gone through the real spectrum with pain medications i found because we have a lot of people on methadone methadone really helps people with pain we kind of have this this view of methadone um as late people that's like oh that's the drug that gets people off a heroin so you don't get high from it and it's not not even slightly true methadone will like knock you um knock you through a loop and uh and so i know that if a patient has methadone their pain care is going to be uh a little bit better because it's it's it's pretty strong um but heavy work man very heavy work very very literally literally they're quite they're quite they're quite heavy and uh but it's good man i work with a lot of cool people um you know but we're high burnout rate high burnout rate and absolutely absolutely man if you heard my language on the floor that's one of the things i've been working on lately is i'm like you know i told the priest a couple weeks ago i'm like yeah i'm satan in the hallway and then jesus when i'm in the room because i'm just like you just add on one more doctor one more doctor's order and i'm like and then you know you kind of have to knock it off and get into character and go into the room but you know yeah let's talk about hell again well do you do you see any healing miracles good question good question uh not healing miracles but um i had a gentleman who saw angels on the operating room table um and um he was um i and i really i tell you what um because i had a couple of opportunities to like pray with people and i'm very afraid to pray with people a lot of the times i'm not like a not like a charism of mine so it was really cool that like some people are in so much pain and but they're just so open to prayer that i'm that'll offer it and this gentleman i got to pray with him and i gave him a rosary that i made him and um uh it was just really cool and he had this abdominal injury that got really infected and i kept trying to tell the health care provider like hey look something's wrong with his abdomen he's screaming in pain it's really taut it's really rigid something's wrong and he had to go get emergency surgery and when he was on the table with his emergency surgery he told me he saw these two angels and they were he said they were massive and this guy is big this dude's like a 500 pound dude he's not a small guy and he said that these things basically like their fingers were half the size of his body he said they um they had this mother of pearl color and they had um um these like golden like decorations like going down their skin that he said were almost kind of like veins and he said their heads were shaped like um axes and they had eyes all over them they said they were huge and um one of them had this flaming sword that it held and it told him um to pick up his sword and he felt them take him and one of them placed their his giant finger he said it was kind of reminded him of like how we would picture like the incredible hulk his hand would be and he felt this pressure in his stomach and um couldn't describe the sensation further but um was just so uh uh impressed by that he said they were so scary but not they were i don't like fear of god's scary not like terrifying it's just like something you would see and you would mess with yeah um but did they help him during the surgery that was that was the impression i got but he came back weeks later i saw him in the hallway i was walking i don't even think i was supposed to be there that day um and i was walking down the hallway and there he was in a wheelchair with his family he's like hey i'm here to get more surgery my abdomen is infected so god willing everything everything's okay but um um yeah i'm pretty sure that that was that was true angelic uh intervention but we also have creepy stuff too oh really like what hauntings yeah we have a little girl that um that runs around on the hallway um that uh a doctor has seen um and a couple of my patients um had a patient in say 8 69 and um she had dementia and she could talk about seeing this little girl and i saw a little girl last night i'm like yeah okay you know and i did my work with her and a week later we were all out in the hallway meet a couple of other nurses and they're like yeah that patient with dementia saw that little girl in 869 and i'm like oh yeah you know the patient that was here last week and i said her name like no it was another patient with dementia who was in the same room and i was like oh that's really strange that they would both see the same uh the same thing similar circumstances but um you know the same kind of uh appearance so um i don't know if that's like um like a soul asking for prayer or if it's some kind of demonic presence but um the more i see dementia the more that i see a weapon of satan because it's just so it's just so evil it's so disturbing now were you being literal when you said you felt your guardian angel tap you on the shoulder about medication yeah it's a feeling it's a sense um but did you feel a physical tap no i've had a couple of moments with him um i don't ever get full-on um uh like angelic encounters i've had one like moments that that are um i think god places them there to test my faith um like the other night i was trying to pray and i had this uh this ringing started happening in my ear i just turned to him and i said dude can you get rid of the sink ringing and almost immediately the ringing went away and so moments like that that that could be a physiological phenomenon that doesn't necessarily mean it's spiritual it could have been something mental that just clicked off and so i just keep it open to um the spiritual side but at mass a couple of years ago um i was praying a little bit after mass had ended and i looked up and i saw on the altar saint michael and then as soon as i saw him it was he he was gone but the impression i got was this huge um massive like 20-foot bulldog of a of an angel and then um that was it i couldn't tell you any any real details or anything meaningful i want to have you okay i'll let rebecca answer then i want to tell you a story yeah have you seen or felt anything literal like that well you know i for a period of time in my spiritual journey i would say between 2015 and 2017 uh i felt angels quite often and um and at first i wasn't sure what i was feeling um but what it would feel like is something like just like kind of an electricity but it was localized now when i feel the presence of the holy spirit i'll feel sort of an electricity all over my body but this was different because it felt like something was brushing up against me you know on one side or one place or on my hand or something like that and so i i suspected it was angels i felt that it was angels and then i have a friend who sees angels now you know i i i never know you know sometimes you don't if you don't know a person well you don't really know if you should believe that they see angels you know it's like one of those things that's like but it's very weird a lot of those you know a lot of people who tell me that they see angels in the other areas of their life they're so serious and grounded that i tend to believe them right because it's like they're not like kind of like this you know they're not like loopy in every way but anyway so it's like okay you know this this person i didn't know her that well so i didn't know if i believed her about her seeing angels all the time but i was on a mission trip with her and she was telling me oh do you know what you know she was like there's an angel on the plane wing right now and she was describing this angel and i'm sitting next to her wait a minute i was sitting next to her on a bus but she was describing to me the angel that she saw on the wing plane so we were not on a plane sorry but so she was sitting next to me on the bus and as she was describing this angel on the wing plane i felt the the feeling i feel when an angel is right there and the moment that i felt it she said one just appeared right there and so that made me say it's awesome wow okay it was sort of a confirmation to me that like what i was feeling and suspected was angels actually was and that um she was really seeing them so yeah that's cool that's really cool i didn't say anything to her you know i didn't say oh i feel an angel i just i felt something on my arm the moment i felt it she said an angel just appeared right there right now you get so at peace you get peace with that or anxiety or uh what do you get with the angels oh wonderful wonderful um you know it it's just as i feel a joy in the presence of god like and i i during that time period of my life is when i saw the most healing miracles so it's when i saw the most instantaneous miracles it's um and it's when i felt the closest to god so i i had an experience that like it really like at that time it made me feel the presence of god nearly on a constant basis for about six or seven months and if i ever for a moment didn't feel it all i had to do was like i would just kind of instinctually lift up my hands and i would just feel the presence of god come over me now you know i don't know like i like i want to get i would love to get back to that i don't know what happened to it you know um but that is that that that was really a wonderful time we have uh periods of consolation and desolation and it's all uh training in the spiritual warfare that's what i would say that's what the church teaches you know with the god spoils us a little bit withdraws and then spoils us and withdraws and it's all part of that that's what i've read in the saints you know it's uh i was riding on a pink cloud for like 10 years solid when i converted in 2009 so uh you know it's really yeah it's just now like the past two years where i've been uh so you know maybe part of the negativity you're picking up from me is just the fact that i'm at a low point now like two years of low desolation compared to the 10 years of pink cloud but i want to share a little anecdote with you and see what your gut reaction is both of you um i was just a it's just a little story about when i was in europe living in belgium with my wife and we stayed with this woman jack ross jacqueline ross she's an artist really nice sweet older lady and uh she shares my last name ross so just coincidence but another thing to bond over and she treated us like her kids you know just being very generous with us and we slept over one night and i don't know why we slept over at her house but anyway she lived in a cute little house and there was a little attic and we had to go up like a ladder to get into the attic so you climb up this ladder and then you just have your little nook and we slept there and uh you know i know i knew that she had lost her daughter tragically i forget how she died but might have been cancer it might have been an accident i don't know i can't remember but the point is i knew i knew that she was grieving the loss of her daughter it's never easy i don't think to lose a child but um an adult child too right like someone i think she was in her late teens early 20s something like that the daughter that died so you know we talked about many things that was one of them obviously but uh i wasn't like dwelling on that but when i went to bed that night i had a mystical vision like it was more than a dream it's like you know everything's very deliberate and you turn and you look and they're climbing up the ladder is this young beautiful woman with the muslim head thing and you know just a modest thing like you would see the blessed virgin mary okay and i had no i was atheist i had no love of the blessed virgin mary whatsoever obviously so i just thought oh this is like uh i was just in in awe and it was just like a silent peaceful thing and there she was she had a neutral look on her face but it was sort of like a beautiful face and i don't know if she went down or if just that vision ended and then the next morning i'm like hey i had this dream it was really weird like it was really real and i described it and i described the face i described the hair color even though the hair was covered mostly by the veil and uh she said yeah that's my daughter and [Music] she said you know in heaven this is uh how they appear with the veil and she just took it for absolute certainty 100 percent no question yeah you saw my daughter you know so what do you think of that story is she doing wishful thinking or you know was it subconscious in me because it was more than just a dream like you know the special feeling you get when something is supernatural is happening what impression do you guys get from that little story i think you're a liar that sounds that sounds cool man i think people know um i think people know you think there's a daughter yeah why not man okay why not um is she happy i mean like is there any indication from my story like i think her going downward signified that she's damned no i think that it was it was probably well wait so did um did your host show you a photograph of her daughter i don't think so i don't know you should have asked for a photo that's what you say yeah i'm probably the wrong person to ask because i'm always a little bit like i don't know if that happened even when god like gobsmacks me with certain things i'm like maybe that's still my brain you know so but if we were to if we were just let's just say for example it's the daughter but i'm worried like okay is she in heaven hell purgatory is she hanging around like a ghost like what's going on she looked peaceful yeah i mean yeah it was a pleasant dream you know zero terror so is that a good sign that probably she's not damned and i would say um i would say so yeah but i mean there's nothing wrong with praying for people anyway yeah you know what i mean like always always soliciting the prayers of our of our christian brothers and sisters that that need that need that um is that okay are you rebecca to pray for the dead or no yeah you pray for the dead that's a that's a good one i have no problem praying for the dead like if if like let's say someone dies and then like you know a friend's relative dies or something and then you know they come over and they're upset then i will pray i'll say a prayer and i'll say please receive that person into your kingdom and you know so yeah i have no problem with that but i mean i don't sit around praying for the dead i don't like like there's like very few circumstances where i would pray for the dead like that's what that's that's like a circumstance i would pray for them i pray i and i'm not being silly here i'm not making a joke i literally pray for the dead all day every day that's like one of my top priorities it's one of my top priorities for sure you know what only yeah you know why because you think they're suffering in purgatory and you want to help them out well that's not the main reason the main reason is because i'm gonna die and i wanna i wanna have these prayers right like i want to i'm preparing so that my stay in purgatory will be shorter so it's a very selfish thing but i also david you think of you think of like purgatory as a place and not as like a just not as a transition why because i always think i don't care if it's a place or a transition or a state of mind or whatever i don't care but all i know is it's long and painful and i don't want it i don't want to go there and i don't want it but if i end up there god forbid then i'm praying every day for the holy souls in purgatory past present and future so that includes me so i have to admit my prayer life is very very self-centered i always say i pray for the true and lasting conversion of all sinners past present and future most especially myself and my wife and those who are close to us et cetera et cetera so it starts with me and my wife and then it goes out from there i'm pretty sure most people do this self-centered style of prayer i'm not sure but i do i think everybody approaches god because something happens to them like there's not like nobody ever says like like i don't need jesus but i was gonna go to him anyway yeah yeah so i'm gonna pray to him i think every i think everybody always comes to like um like fear of the lord like is you know like the beginning of wisdom right so fear of the lord is is egotistical in one sense because you're like oh man i'm really sinful and then you like look at yourself and you see that god is good and um it's narcissistic in one sense but then it brings you to a state of humility over time so i don't think that there is any other way that you can approach prayer when jesus approached that guy that could never find his spot in the healing waters remember he didn't say he didn't i watched the chosen he didn't say like oh oh no no don't put me in the water go put that other guy fred in the water because he's been waiting around for years trying to get in no he just said put me in the water and when people were blind jesus said what do you want make me see it's like so there is i think a precedent in the bible like yeah we are uh sick and you know they're also examples where the family and friends like took off the roof and lowered the paraplegic into the house or whatever like that's very touching but also in the chosen have you watched the chosen no i haven't watched your choices watch that show dude watch the show rebecca have you seen that show i have seen the first season yeah it's good i enjoy it i enjoy it it's quite it's quite nice i had an interaction sort of cut you off you should be sorry i'm just bored of listening to your voice just kidding oh but me too man but i put i i was in the chat with some guy on twitter and uh he's like i'm a calvinist and i don't i don't pray to mary and all this sort of thing and uh later on in the twitter conversation like we're just having a private chat back and forth talk about religion this night the other thing and i said hey man i just met this guy but i'm like hey man would you uh i'd like you to pray for me are you willing to pray for me he's like yeah sure man no problem yeah i'll pray for you what is it and i said well uh you know this is if you're willing if it's okay for me to ask you to pray then what's the difference like i'm just disgusting sinners so if it's okay if this style of intercessory prayer is okay for you why wouldn't it be okay with the mother of god right like it's like you are perfectly fine with intercessory prayer when it's like two dirty sinners but if it's the mother of your lord and savior that's not okay right is that a good is that a good illustration of do you want me to emphatically agree with you after you just you're two different people you probably have two different opinions i want to hear talk amongst yourselves i think rebecca should talk um because everybody knows that you know i'm gonna be like i guess this is one of the aspects of catholicism that i mean i agree with like it's not a big deal like yeah i wasn't expecting that really well yeah because it's such a because if you if you read the new testament on prayer um it seems to be a very specific um it's not even a prescription or a formula but i mean like what you glean from it is pretty much oh you pray to the father in the name of jesus and there are specific ways you do that and um he like also reading about his um you know uh when you pray don't pray as the the heathens do heaping up empty phrases for they think you'll be heard for their many words you know you you read something like that and you're like there you go that condemns uh repetition uh repetitive prayer and um so you can like see all these things and so when people say i have a problem asking for mary's prayers i'm like yeah i get it i mean i don't agree with it but i get it and i you know and then also developing a prayer life um uh you know um in the catholic tradition um you see it you're like okay so even if it's not disagreeable why are we not teaching more so the way that jesus specifically told us how to pray like why don't we see that being handed down to people um with more emphasis you know because the rosary gets like thrown in everybody's face um like all the time but if you like think about jesus's words regarding prayer catholic you're like jesus spoke about prayer why did he do that and they're like you can open the bible and read it you know there's a very like strange relationship with a lot of catholics and um scripture so you know very refreshing to hear what you what you think yeah it's one of those like it's it's a practice that i i feel that i understand and i'm fine with i don't do it and that's because i can also see the other side of it where it's also like we're not really supposed to commune with the dead like you know that's also kind of though right and that's where that's what i'm saying there's like kind of a that you know the saints are alive right but i don't see but i don't see in scripture like you know an example of this being done so it's not something that i do but it's it i have no problem with people doing it like i'm not gonna you know tell someone they shouldn't ask mary to do you know intercede for them on something so well and i get i've always had like a complicated relationship like in that area but i've always ended up defaulting to it anyway because i know that it's it's good for me and mary has helped me out on so many occasions and um i was deep into yoga for a long time and felt at odds with my faith about yoga and i feel like it was mary's intercession that like slowly started pulling me out of like eastern um uh eastern philosophies and into uh the lap of christianity or the labs specifically of jesus because i mean you know she's got two legs so jesus is sitting on one of her thighs and then you can you can occupy the other and that's kind of how wow did you make that up or is that a castle no no i made that up yeah wow but um you know he's a little bit uncomfortable hearing that but it's cool what it's interesting it's very intimate i mean i'm dude if we're supposed to be like little children then there's there's nothing wrong with that man pick me up and take care of me because i'm yeah i'm garbage so like i need i need to be picked up and held rather than um running off and doing a bunch of things on my own well so um did you end up like coming to like a firm position on you don't think yoga like should do you think christians should not practice yoga i think aiden shouldn't practice it um it's uh i experienced some weird spiritual phenomenon prior to my um actual jump into yoga and then when i started reading yoga literature i'm like oh i experienced that like i don't know if you know anything about kundalini um but i experienced um a kundalini spirit once when i was 19 or 20 years old and it was um it was really terrifying and so then when um i got into yoga i read this book um called the science of yoga and it was really awesome but they had a whole section dedicated to people that have experienced the phenomena of kundalini and just um looked at it pretty objectively and was like this is pretty scary and i'm like hey i experienced that i didn't know that that's what it was called but um one night when i was um half asleep half awake um i experienced sleep paralysis i was sleeping on my on my stomach and my head was turned to the side and i felt like very hot and cold at the same time like um i can't remember what the phenomenon was my skin was cold and i was burning up on the inside but i was sweaty and i felt like somebody took a tuning fork and banged the tuning fork on my spine and i felt this bizarre vibration up and down my back like i was a like a like a rumble pack and um this like weird electrical stimulation throughout my whole body and this big this big cloud appeared and it had a face and it like told me it had seven different names and it it was just absolutely horrifying and um you know uh people kind of chase that spiritual phenomenon i knew instinctively i'm like oh that's a demon and there's just no there's just no other way around it there was nothing about the experience that was pleasant i was steeped in really disgusting sin at that time um i had sought out the um counsel of one of my friend's moms was a um i don't know she's a tarot card reader or just a medium in general but i do i sought out her help and it's like there you go open doorway right there um but people [Music] chase this phenomenon down they actually want it in the yoga world and there's just something so um there's just something so backwards about that and so the more that i got entrenched in yoga the more i saw uh the occult side of it and um uh just what it did to people made people narcissists and made people body focused and made people um it was very much um reserved for sexy people not broken people you know it's one and i always saw it as a tool that could be used to help people fix their bodies and then but it ended up getting hijacked by um hi my name's brittany i'm gonna do this handstand and it's just like it's just so overly sexualized and i'm like me as a man i don't really have a place i don't really have a place in this uh anymore and uh slowly got you know slowly phased out of it but um i was also too cowardice too too cowardly to be my authentic christian self in that in that situation too because it was um just like a den of uh spiritual cherry picking so jesus isn't really welcome in that realm unless of course jesus is accompanied by the buddha and by um krishna so pretty strong words and a pretty powerful testimony and uh i think you're 100 correct i mean uh what do i know but i mean i i think there's a reason why the church has warned us against dabbling with eastern mysticism and even with yoga there are documents uh encyclicals that have been put out in the last century that talk about the dangers of the east you know the beauty of these the truth of the east and then the dangers and it's a balanced appraisal but there's no doubt there is a spiritual element to yoga practices and uh that's where the danger lies when you and i aiden have had this conversation before about stretching stretching is not demonic right stretching is not demonic no it's just not yeah but i would argue that yoga is so much more than than stretching like rebecca do you practice yoga or have you practice oh no no not at all okay i i feel the same way about it i mean i'm i'm probably not i don't feel strongly enough about it that like if christians are practicing it i'm not gonna be like the one being like no no no you know like i'm gonna say okay let the lord work within what they're doing and let them worship because some of them will say i'm worshiping god i'm not worshiping any you know other deity but a lot of the positions and stuff um are you know specifically for worshiping certain deities and things like that so right yeah and there's no escaping that well and i mean so somebody didn't believe in god and they went to a worship service uh three nights out of the week and they were told you don't have to believe in god but i just want you to stand here and i want you to sing the music and i want you to put your hands in the air and um i just want you to do that you don't have to you don't have to believe any of it and they did that consistently for a year one day they come in they're down on their luck they're like man i really feel awful today my boss treated me poorly my girlfriend left me i i you know what i'm a real slob and then all of a sudden they're in that they're like wait a second it just lends itself to this to this moment of receiving whoever's at the other end of that practice and the same thing with yoga the more that you put yourself into that posture or that um breathing exercise the more that your um pruning yourself to receiving whatever whatever that that demonic entity is and uh so much of yoga is anglicized and gymnastic and then there's like bits of it that are absolutely not um uh anglicized and so there's just no way there's no way that that you can be informed enough to know which postures are safe and which postures are unsafe because there's so many of them they've all been modified they've all been sold to white women in spandex and then like packaged up for white men white men to go and and enjoy for themselves i mean this is the this is the truth it's just this is really what it is it's it's a um just a big old um uh pit of deception that um uh is very very attractive i still find myself floating back to it in mind and thinking like man i could go practice or teach a class or you know whatever and then um thank god i haven't you know actually acted on those impulses because uh it's just so fleeting and so um pale compared to the to the truth but now is the attraction that you have to it because of the women in spandex or is it also because of like the the kind of like practice itself it's the practice itself in fact even if i did go back like towards the end of my practice i was like teaching a class with my head down because i'm just like ah this is two there's no chance to be in this and i you know just got married and i wanted to be good to my thank god for my wife um because she's the one who opened the doorway for for jesus to come in um but i instinctively knew you have a bunch of habits here that are not conducive to being married so get it get it together and so um that changed but there is something attractive about the practice that's not related to sex and there's it's just about like maybe maybe sex visually maybe it's another way maybe it's like virility um like suppleness um freedom from our physical bondage because there really isn't an aspect of us that we're we're just so physically bound and yoga does free you from a lot of that and also it just it looks cool you know christianity has so much stuff in it that just looks so lame like if i see another you know jesus fish and cross i might vomit you know but then you look at like you look at that compared to a lotus flower and you're just like ooh ah mandalas you know dude with six arms like there's just something there's something cool about it like uh exotic it is exotic which is why i think the orthodox church is so cool because when you see certain like bits of iconography you're like oh yeah that trumps that trump's yoga it like you know tramples it underfoot and so if you want something mysterious you want something um holy then and there are these deep wells that you can go to to draw from that you just have to know where to go and don't talk to um you know your joe six-pack catholic you know because he's not going to know where it is you kind of have to be willing to um you know do the deep dive yourself so we're going to wrap it up because my my thing is going to end here my call's going to end they put a time limit on it but i'm really happy that you two met and uh rebecca this guy's got a brother this guy's got a brother you wouldn't believe these guys they're so different but they're so similar and they got the sibling rivalry everything so uh you'll have to meet the brother sometime but it's a real it's a real joy and a pleasure that you're so spontaneous it's very rare uh no insult to the the fairer sex but it's so rare to find a woman that's just like yeah sure give me one minute you know if that was my wife would be like yeah give me four hours and i'll get ready and then maybe i'll be ready to be on camera but to be that spontaneous and to be that cool and like hey yeah i'll jump on a video and i'll talk with this guy i've never met and it's like two-on-one catholic versus non-catholic it's like very cool that you're so uh hip and you're just open hip and open and uh yeah and it's just a real joy to have you both on here thank you so much can we do this sometime where it's actually scheduled because uh i i am like the fair sex and i do like to put on my my makeup just i like look pretty well you gotta get that eight pack tightened up a bit i noticed i know let myself go buddy that's why you wore the t-shirt normally he doesn't wear clothes during our interviews but he just said uh getting chubby again i loved this talk i mean we just jumped from one topic to another and it was so much fun and so thank you so much for inviting me on that was really sweet amazing thank you yeah no it was awesome i wanted to say also i really enjoyed it thank you for coming and livening up because it seems that um when i've been talking to david lately we've been getting other people to join it and it makes it so much better because it's just like like i um i love to talk too much and then it's nice to uh have other people uh you know make it uh so have some variety so thank you for listening to my garbage david thank you for having me on yeah it's always a pleasure you're uh you're both sweet people and you inspire my faith in different ways and you need to repent now david you're on your way to hell why what i do nothing i just wanted to let you know before i go that death draws nigh and that you have but uh a moment i see okay i see i see what we're doing okay you're showing the contrast between yourself and rebecca and the two the two sides of that christian and i'm telling you you are holy you are righteous you can sing no you're singing sing it sing that song don't worry be happy how's it going don't worry yeah so no there's more to it than that we have a lot more in common uh probably than aiden ever thought right aiden sure absolutely absolutely um you just need somebody to like come in and pick it up and elevate it to that moment but if you get a couple of like negative nancies you know together all the time then we just kind of you know the tonal quality matches so you just need somebody else to come in there and be unwilling to compromise and you know drop down to that level and then instinctively the two bums will then raise up to it but you are going to go to hell david if you don't change your ways so i appreciate it on that note i will appreciate it i love you enough to tell you that that's not true i'm so sorry i'm going to be appearing on rebecca's show i think wednesday is that right wednesday yep that's awesome so check that out check out rebecca's channel bread of life i don't even i don't even know what it's all about because i'm trying to like not learn too much i like the organic get to know me kind of thing and so i don't want to learn too much from watching old videos there very excited actually i looked you up um and kept spelling your name wrong so um i only got like one like um video of you talking to somebody else so i'll check out your bread of life channel too um cool you do that regularly yes um usually a couple times a week awesome so i had covered like last week so i didn't do much but um if you type in if you go to youtube and you type in bread of life channel it'll be the first one that comes up okay i'll check it out it sounds awesome yeah okay bye thank you so much take care god bless good night bye take care god bless you see you david bye nice talking to you bye

CVS Live Guest - 2022-06-13 - Brenda vs. Kieran (feat. Pykris)

we are live we're here with kieran and brenda it's up to you to to run the discussion so about now have a good one all right awesome hey brenda uh good afternoon good evening yes evening whatever how are you doing um i'm doing okay i'm doing okay good so um i guess we were gonna talk about abortion yes i guess so okay um so i did listen to your talk with uh joe and then um i don't know i made a response to you forever ago um that i don't know you probably didn't listen to it was it's more just kind of ramblings after hearing your discussion with joe because i was pretty surprised to hear your take on a in particular it might have been the discussion you had with david actually before with uh then then with joe or you guys discussed abortion and you had talked about the fact that it's a human being from the point of conception have you uh maintained well yes it's um it's human it's human tissue right my blood is human right my fingernail is human so uh i'm not sure i know what you mean when you add in human being but well are all of the necessary components for a fully matured adult human being within that little zygote or that single celled organism no they're not there it has to develop over time all of the dna is not there and present replicate okay the dna is present in my blood okay your admission to david was not that this was human tissue but rather that this was a human being from the point of conception your only qualm with it was that even though this is a human being this is a human life if you don't like the word being or something like that this is a life from the point of conception is that it should still be or maintained to be the woman's right to abort the child or murder the child yes okay well it's not murder since it's legal well that's not how you judge what's what's yes no it's not if the law were to change tomorrow that says that abortion is not murder or is murder excuse me would you then concede that abortion is murder i i would say that yes legally abortion abortionism is murder and i always murder someone um i would argue that the law needs to be changed but if it were illegal if it were if it were legally considered murder at that point and murder is wrong is murder wrong uh yeah okay so if it were legally considered to be murder let's let's not let's not even let's leave out the whole you know we can petition to have this law changed at that in point of fact at that time before the law is changed if it's considered murder would you then concede that it's murder and that it's wrong if murder is is wrong uh yeah but i think that people can um it's legal it's illegal that's what i mean by wrong it's just against those social norms at the time yes and i would advocate that i can advocate i would yeah it is i would simply advocate that people um this will either disobey the law if they wish to in civil civil disobedience or else uh lobby um to get the law changed to one that is um but murder is wrong but murder is wrong yeah okay so you're gonna advocate to have something that is wrong that's being uh that that that's not being protected so something that's wrong that's not being protected by the law you're saying well i want that thing that's wrong to be protected well if the speed limit is 70 miles an hour and i think that it should be 55. um who cares what you think why would i care about that uh because that's how society reaches laws by by a democratic process right so if if i'm speeding in our society sure yeah if i'm speeding um i'm breaking the law even if i think okay we're not talking about we're not talking about speeding we're talking about we're talking about taking a human life let's keep it on the topic of yeah i don't i would consider natural law i would consider this natural law you don't get to kill another person i i think that they're saying is natural law i know you don't i know you reject natural law i think that's silly but i think there's plenty of things i think i think you intuit the idea that natural law exists because you think that things are uh your personal preference and that they ought to be followed so i think that you do actually adhere to a form of natural law you just deny it um while simultaneously trying to persuade people of your of of what your inclination towards um your preference might be but but but again it's arbitrary it's ad hoc it doesn't matter what you want if you can't set up a formal standard for why it is your opinion is better than another's then it's just that it's just your opinion i can give reasons why i think i can give reasons why i think michael well reasons are different than justification reasons are different reasons are just that's what reasons are that's not what that's not what justification is yeah it is no no no it's not not necessarily i think they are what do you think they are you can have a reason that is totally unreasonable i mean i could be like a friend yeah yeah sure you can sure you can reason i could say brenda why do you why do you like the color blue and you say oh well because applesauce tastes good and that applesauce i had has a blue lid on it that's why i like the color blue that's not like that's not a good reason that's not a justification i don't think it's a perfectly good reason i think it's gonna be hard i think it can have any arbiter yes it would be but for your personal you're forgetting that you set up that you you stated at the outset that murder is wrong um yeah it's it's against it goes against my social norms of the country where i live yeah okay so is murder is murder wrong here just as it's wrong in china 500 years ago uh probably not there's probably differences about what's what's uh moral or immoral or against the laws of uh brendan reporting according to brenda there would be things that i would disagree with but if i was in china i would have to observe the um the the the normative customs of the land unless i chose to either be in civil disobedience or to convince the people that i live with that i have a better way of doing things but all of this all of this is obvious all of this is obfuscating and not actually getting to the issue as to whether or not something is actually ontologically wrong or not i don't think there's any such thing as ontological wrong okay so then why so then why do you care if people say that uh that put laws i do care restrictions on abortions okay but why because what's the point what's the point well i have reasons for for opposing uh other people because it's um it's a woman's choice um to control her pregnancy it's her body it's her body and it's not her body it's not her body it's not her body pretty sure that it is it's not her body okay stop interrupting stop interrupting guys just have a back and forth so a woman has a right to control her pregnancy it's her body and it's her choice and if she does not consent to uh holding the pregnancy then it's her right to terminate it okay so two points are you finished yeah okay two points num first of all um it's my body i have a three-year-old son he's fully dependent upon my body 100 yes i do he's fully 100 yes i do he's fully hold on i didn't interrupt you he's fully dependent upon my body if i were to leave him in the room by himself for a day or two with no supervision whatsoever he'd either stick his finger in a light socket and kill himself or he would die of starvation because my son is totally incompetent and doesn't know how to take care of himself he's 100 percent dependent upon my body and my wife's body still at this point no do i have the right to kill do i have the right to kill my son so he's not no you don't so you he's not dependent on your body he is dependent he's 100 dependent on my body not in some way not in the same way he's not living he's not living off the nutrients from my body specifically right that's what i mean by being dependent on your body okay he's still dependent on my body is he not he's not no he is did he depend on the paycheck that i bring home from work that would be being dependent on your paycheck not your body and does my body go to work for me i would think that you go to work yeah okay does my body is my body uh encompassed by me does my body i would say i would think that you would include your your body as as a part of you yes okay so if my body is the means for my income and my son is dependent upon my income then that is only one instance in which my son is fully dependent upon my body that's no that's not a logical argument it is a logical one because it doesn't follow from the fact that you have a body and that your son is dependent on you earning a paycheck that therefore he's dependent on your body that's not uh um that's not a that's not a uh a sound argument that's just not sound okay i fully 100 disagree i think it's a completely sound argument i think that my son has been dependent upon my wife's body since conception until now he still is and if we were to um exclude our bodies from the equation and we were to not do anything for our son and nobody else were to come and substitute their body or their um their help or nurturing with my son that he would die because he is a three-year-old and he does not and and but so here's again here's the logical step then you would say that i don't have the right to get rid of my son i want to know is it only because the baby inside the womb is dependent in a different way on the woman's body that that somehow means they have no right to life is that is that where you're drawing that distinction well the reason that you are um morally and legally responsible for your child is because after he's born i don't care about i don't i don't care about legalities we're talking we're talking about philosophically here there's plenty there's plenty of there's plenty of societies in china again let's go back to china where it's okay it's okay to leave your unwanted child abandoned and you will not get penalized for it okay there have been plenty of there are plenty so you brenda if you were to see that because it's legal in that country it would be okay to do that to abandon that child uh not for me no i would i would disagree with that very expensive that's a psychological state that's a psychological state i don't care if so i would just like that and i would so i would disagree with that and i would try to convince the people around me that it's it's that's not a good solution to a problem so that's what i would do um but they think it is a good solution yeah okay and i would try to convince them otherwise just like if i was in um in in a country where they practiced slavery i would say that that was wrong and that i would disagree with it i would not cooperate with that society and i would try to convince the people that they should change the laws and forbid slavery are you still there brenda yes i'm still here nothing happened not in my mind it okay it broke up on my end it's probably my computer i have a poor connection um yeah i mean again i i don't think we're going deep enough i don't think that i i don't i don't care personally and i'm not saying that to be mean i i don't care what your personal want or desire or what your opinion on what you think is beneficial for society is that's how i i want to know is something i know that's how you do it but i'm saying that's not a justification because any person any no it's not because any person can come and pause that you need an objective you need an objective standard by which to judge that so there's plenty of things i don't think there is any objective standards i know you don't and i think that's silly i think that's absolutely silly because you're talking about youtube you're talking in absolutes you're talking i'm not talking in absolutes i've been pretty clear that that what i consider moral is relative to to my uh my preference and then you continue and then you continue to input your preferences in other societies why would you why would it be a good thing why would it be a good thing to posit your preference into um a society that disagrees with because the majority of your worldview because that would please me so your pleasure i always pleasure your pleasure is is what is most if that's your that's that's the basis for what is good your pleasure i think because i i i it's preferable to me right you said pleasure it's preferable to you okay yeah it's it's preferable it's preferable to me to live in a society to live in a society where slavery is not practiced children are not abandoned on the streets and and women have access to safe and secure uh abortions okay it's preferable this is what joe said it's preferable for hitler to kill jews yeah okay yeah i don't think that's a good idea i don't care uh well uh i would advocate that he not kill jews i would have um i'd like to think that i would have fought against his his regime i think i would have tried to convince the people people that if this is a bad idea um all of those things and i would not have participated i think i think i would have uh much more likely um that's a very good case that i would not have um i would engage in whatever civil disobedience i could or left that society okay most likely i would have had to leave and then i would have joined in in the war against him to stop him because i would feel very strongly that what he was doing is is is just not right it's it's not preferable it's not a good thing so so if i can like kind of trying to concisely get your your side of things down so this is this is what i'm getting so morality is not absolute correct would you agree with that like from your world view morality is not absolute well i don't even know what the word absolute means i would say it's it's mutable it's mutable so you can change it it can change over time morality can change over time i think it obviously has i mean but like not just in a legality or a societal way i mean like yeah i think there are times there are times when you can lie and there are times when you probably shouldn't lie but there are times when you would be morally obligated to lie and there would be times when you'd be well that's more obligated to that's true that's ethics that's more ethics that's the application of morality that's not actually morality itself that's that's well if it's applicable to lie like if or steal if let's say stealing from the rich to pay you know to give to them is it absolutely or not is is morality absolute or not it feels like you're you're you're being hypocritical there i don't think so i think it's absolute absolutely is it absolutely wrong is it a categorical i think it's absolutely wrong to steal all the time yes no matter the circumstances correct but you just said you just said that there were cases where you would uh state or lie no no no no i'm staying i was stating in instances and where it would be applied ethically i'm not stating that i would do those things i don't see how your ethics can conflict with your morality i would think that that would be saying you're morally hypocrites that would be you gave me an instance where you said that morality changes and you said i think there are instances where lying would be okay and where lying would not be okay and i actually and i correctly pointed out to you that that's not strictly dealing in moral absolutes or moral unabsolutes that's dealing in ethics ethics is the application of morality and i'm stating that in any situation if something is stated by god to be immoral we are not to partake in it so if it requires me to bear false witness in order to i don't know do other some type of virtue it's no longer a virtue okay so is it is it a moral absolute to lie or not which is it it's an it's a moral absolute it's an absolute wrong to lie because there are times you would lie no i'm saying i mean of course i lied i just said there were times i've already i've won no no no i don't think you're good brenda i don't think you're understanding i'm not saying that i personally that me kieran would i'm stating that people when applying ethics or when applying morality to their ethics would engage in things and justify it by saying well if i lie in this instance it's for this greater good here i me personally i'm saying that i do not believe that there is an application of such a thing by which that action of lying is is is good i'm stating that it's a it's a moral wrong i i just want to know whether or not whether or not you there are circumstances under which you would lie in spite of believing that lying is a is a is morally prohibited i'm giving you the standard i'm giving you the objective standard by which i operate on or try to operate on but of course i'm imperfect so if i were to sit here brenda and say to you i've never ever lied before obviously that would be a lie i've lied before i'm an imperfect human being i commit sins i am i'm only immortal yeah i have two i have two i i i'm in perfect but the standard the standard is something that is immutable so just because i am mutable and just because i violate the standard does not mean that the standard is not immutable well it means that you don't believe in it no it doesn't yeah it does no it doesn't it absolutely does not if if you have you do plenty of things you do you do plenty of things that you don't believe in you're you're having a conversation with me right now you're using the laws of watcher where do you get that from um i i don't know if i want to get into epistemology that would be it seems to be derailing the conversation it's not derailing the conversation because you can't get you can't you can only you can only go back and forth on morality for so long you and i are talking about this and your basic your basic um your basic presupposition is well i have a standard for morality that's just preferable to me and i said the same thing that joe said and the same thing that david said which is well who cares no one cares if you have a personal preference for it we're asking for a standard of morality a justification something that you can point to now i admit that mind is circular at bottom on the paradigmatic level mine is circular because my presupposition is that god exists if god exists and god is good and these things come from god then the standard of god is what i'm going to try and follow now i'm upfront and honest with that you don't believe in god that's that's all well and good but at least i'm giving you a justification for my moral code even though i don't follow it perfectly all the time but but throwing in throwing an ad hominem of well you've lied before so you don't believe it that's not an argument it's not an at home it is it is because it's not what the word means yeah sure it is what the word means an ad hominem is just an attack on somebody's character has nothing no it's not it has nothing to do with the actual argument itself no that's that's wrong it's not an at home yes it's okay then explain it to me because it's a non-sequitur saying because i because i don't perfectly follow the moral code that means therefore i don't believe in it that's not an argument there's plenty of things it's not an argument it's not a good argument it's not a good argument no it's not it's not i just pointed out to you that you don't that you do the same thing and then your thing was well that's a two call clearing fallacy so so the point is is that an at home is if you say uh the cat is on the mat and i said well you give me an argument and i say um your argument is fallacious because um you have brown eyes that would be an at-home or because i don't like you because because uh of some feature of yours i don't like you you wear glasses people who wear glasses never tell the truth so your argument is false all right so that's an at home it's not an insult it's just an insult it's not an at home i stand corrected but you that that is what your argument was though it was no you you commit you commit you commit uh you commit crimes or or or um you commit um actions against what your standard for morality would be therefore you don't believe in it i don't that's not a coherent argument do you do yes because you do things that you in which you believe right or do are you don't do things that that you don't believe i don't know i i asked you that in regards to um so if you believe if you if you believe that lying is is an absolutely morally prohibited and you lie since lying is a willful act on your part it seems to me that that contradicts what you've said before because i haven't because i have a fallen name critical no no no because i have a fallen nature and because i have a proclivity to the things that are not of god are sinful can you and i actually that's the christian life that's the hope that's what repentance is that's what turning away is that's what turning towards christ and turning away from sin is so so that is the christian life but if you're going to sit there and say that uh every christian needs to be perfect and blameless before the law when literally our exact um theology says the opposite that no one is blameless no not one i i i agree i you are blam you you can be held responsible for the lies that you commit right sure because lying is is an absolute moral prohibition correct and so therefore i can rightly criticize you for those times that you have willfully lied no i'm not i don't care about you i don't i don't care about your criticism of my lying you're an eight i i don't care you're a human being i care about god's god god's criticism is not going to be ha ha i got you in an argument god's god's criticism of me if i lie and i die unrepentant of it is hey guess what you're separated from me for all eternity so i i don't care i don't care about the standard of brenda this is what we're back to again so it doesn't it doesn't just just haven't hold on hold on i haven't demonstrated you haven't demonstrated that because i because i mess up and um choose the wrong over the good that that thus means that i uh don't believe in it in fact i can criticize you for that and i think you can it just doesn't mean anything regardless regardless of whether or not you take my criticism seriously i don't i have a i have a right to do an internal critique and say that you are not living up to your own moral precepts agreed right and so that that is that is a at the very least a level of hypocrisy agreed right so i am not hypocritical because i say from the outset that it's about that my moral percepts are about my preferences and that they are relative to my wants needs and desires so my moral is is is a is a relative morality i don't believe in objective morality i don't think i don't think it even makes sense okay so um and so we've gone a long way from abortion too well we have to talk about morality in order to talk about abortion from the beginning logic too because well i was just bringing that up as a point to say that you operate with things that you don't at uh you just a priori accept like you don't you don't actually i i don't think it works i don't think that you would have i don't think that you would have a justification for um following the laws of logic consistently like i just don't think that you would be able to do it and i was pointing that out because you were stating because i violate the moral code that i believe in that means i don't believe it and i was using it to show that you believe in the laws of logic even though from you or you use the laws of logic even though i don't think you have a way to justify them how can i justify uh my my presuppositions when it is my presuppositions that i use to justify things with well that's the presuppositional approach but from a theistic point from from from from a theistic worldview where the presupposition is that uh these metaphysical truths are able to be present and to be understood by god's creation because of god in logic in logic in in logic we have uh the accent axioms are accepted a priori that means that they are accepted simply on their face or as being self-evident they are not justified presuppositions are unjustified assumptions that we make that are necessary to do any kind of reasoning in the first place so i can't use reason to justify my reasoning correct it's just it's logically impossible so we accept we accept certain properly basic beliefs which uh form the the foundation or the bottom of our reasoning and we reason we start there and we reason outward from there you can't reason to your presuppositions they are accepted a priori correct my question i guess is what are you a strict materialist um i'm a naturalist yes so i think that we live in a natural world yeah okay and so that's your starting presupposition meaning meaning that um the yeah if you could flush that out a little bit it just means that i believe i don't believe in any um super any supernatural world or entities i think that the world is full is sufficiently described by our best empirical sciences can you can you empirically prove the laws of logic uh no those uh logic is is a is a language that humans made to describe the the patterns and regularities that we perceive in nature so we see persistence over time and we think that that's identity um and so we say that there is a law of identity or we perceive um you know certain certain regularities and we might call that um one thing you know like we if p then q that seems to be based on observations or our regularities that we see in the world right i think that logic like where would you put where would you put something like like um where would you put something like math or language or or logic itself like in terms of your natural the naturalistic framework are those things immutable i guess those are not i do not believe there are people who believe that um abstract um entities like uh logic is just a branch of mathematics anyway so mathematic things abstract quantities or or properties or objects or whatever you want to call them those are just um i'm anomalous in that in that regard i think that they're just the names that we give to to things right so i i don't think that there there are some people who uh believe that there is a world of abstract entities um that exists from that from the mir from the materialistic standpoint you mean or like the naturalistic standpoint the these abstract entities there are people who think that there are there is the material world and that there is a um abstract world the world of abstractions um and that these have no they have no ontology and they have no causal um they have no causal effects on our world i don't believe that i i'm not that would be i'm an anomalous well there's plenty of philosophers who believe that i'm an anomalous i think it's just like a label that we give to things that we and the language um mathematics are the things themselves are the things themselves existent no they're the labels that we give them no it's just it's just like the labels that we give to things it's simply a a language invented by humans so so like so if we were to we if we were to be able to observe the law of non-contradiction which we can do but we didn't have a name for the law of non-contradiction you're saying that how do we do that how do we observe the law of non-contradiction well i guess if you can't separate it from language or from your thoughts but like let's say that nobody ever spoke anything before or something like that and you and i were i i was looking at reserve observing something and i saw that oh that's a that's a tree or whatever that that is in my head like um and then i said oh okay well um you know that's that i don't know if i'm explaining it correctly well you could say so you could for instance point to say a rabbit and correct and know that it's a rabbit without having go ahead finish yourself i don't think i know that that's what you said i think it's i think it's not it's not 100 clear to me that the the sound the word that you uttered necessarily correlates with the uh uh thing that you pointed at i i'm not i don't know does that think itself exists but does that thing itself exist yeah the thing itself is the rabbit exists but i i'm not saying i'm not asking if we can move that into if we can move that into the abstract entities where we're talking about where we're at i know no no no no i'm not i'm not talking about rabbits i'm saying if we can get away from the rabbit for a second and replace rabbit with uh the law of non-contradiction or math like or like the number seven or something like that you can't do this do these things right is seven concrete though is what i'm asking no it's abstract okay but this isn't it's the seventh do we do we what i'm asking do we invent seven or do we decide number seven well we do we discover math or do we invent math um we give mathematicians say that we discover it they said they don't say that it's like not like we're like inventing different equations these are things that are discovered supposedly i'm not a mathematician hey would you guys object if uh someone came and joined the discussion just for fun okay yeah sure okay it's going to be my friend chris so cool so people observe that they're like seven stones um right and they count them one two three four five six seven and they attach the label seven to this concept to the idea sorry that i have of a collection of a collection of seven objects so i have this collection and i've just given it the label or the name hence nominalism then i've just given this collection of seven objects the name seven right so i can't observe seven i can't observe abs um abstractions i mean i believe in abstractions um they're just entirely within my head their concept um and numbers and mathematics and and these things are are concepts in my brain right there's people that think that they exist independent of me but i don't think that's true oh can you hear me yeah i can hear you hello hello yeah i'm i'm here sorry oh we're getting some crosstalk yeah i don't know what's going i think there's like a latency or something uh sorry i've got i've got the uh whatchamacallit the i've got the stream on on my other phone oh yeah you should probably turn that off because it will get i i did i turned it down it's good we're good we're good so we seem to have traveled a long ways but basically i think that there's um nothing wrong with a woman terminating a pregnancy because um it is part of her body and she has a right to uh terminate a pregnancy if she doesn't consent if she doesn't consent to the pregnancy and again okay so i did i i take i i understand i understand your position my i think again it really comes down to number one is it human is it a life so is it number one is it a human is it is it is it a life is it a life and number three it's alive it's a number three is it truly is it truly and solely the woman's body it's from her yes but um it's from her but my son is from me too again these things apply and you say you don't like the logic or the outcome of where i'm taking it but it's the logical conclusion if you're if your criteria for what is okay to terminate a pregnancy as you call it i would call it murder for murdering a child if your criteria is simply is simply that it's it's it's the the woman doesn't want it it's yeah i guess that's akin to something of her property and then uh it's placement within her body those aren't those aren't legitimate reasons i think you don't you don't afford the same bodily autonomy to that person that wants an abortion as you do with the person that doesn't want to take uh a jab an experimental medication yeah so it's not no you don't no you don't you criticized david yeah entire talk with him okay because it is just why it's because it's bad science that's why it's bad science to not admit that a baby from the point of conception is a baby that's bad science no but baby until it's born it's it's a confusion being a human being it's not a person it's not a person it is not a person it is a person well that's what you say that's i don't you you've admitted all the dna necessary for human life is there it is alive it is a living organism from the moment necessary it is a living organism from the moment of conception uh no it isn't yep baby's body is its own not part of the mothers bam well i mean it it i mean brenda i i'm not trying to be a dick it it it literally is it's from the point of concept that's that's been you this whole time that's been you this whole time from the point of conception it from the point yes i have from the point your whole your whole argument is you don't like the level of development of the baby and it's placement it's no that's not my argument that is your argument that's what it comes down to yes it is no it doesn't boil down to that my argument is is that the woman has a right to bodily autonomy right and having a fetus um taking her bodily resources against her will or against her consent is not moral and again oh moral let's not even get into that realm again dude when we're talking about using somebody else's body when we're talking about somebody else's body i gave you the legitimate response that a baby is perfectly and 100 dependent upon their mothers and in most cases where there's a functioning family their father's body too that's not the issue your inability to understand concepts that was just your inability to understand concepts i don't think so i think it's quite i think i think that i i just don't think that you like the the logical outcome of your argument because it's a dumb argument you can watch it you can apply it you can yes i have i showed you where you don't want to be consistent with it i just showed you where you don't want to be consistent with it absolutely i have you said you all you've said is that it's in the woman's body and it's dependent upon her body and so therefore she can do what you must do but i haven't refuted that number one the baby's body is their body of course it's about their bot okay so what about their bodily autonomy um did they not get any because they're not conscious yet yeah so the woman has a right to terminate a pregnancy due to her bodily autonomy she does not maybe you have bodily autonomy it's a simple yes or no question no the the fetus the embryo does is not a person and it does not have rights according to you're not a person until you're born where do you get where's that where's that defined it's the legal definition you are a person when you are born again i'm not before that you are not a person okay so your fetus is again a fetus or an embryo that's what you are before you were born so a baby so so you're willing to allow for a baby to be killed in the womb up to the day of birth uh no i don't care if you don't like the preference i'm asking from your logic is it okay to kill that baby because it's still an embryo it's not a human there are conditions there are conditions under which don't care is it okay i don't care there are conditions under which it would be acceptable but i i think that i agree with the original with the original uh ruling which is you know the first trimester the woman can abort for any reason and this and then you need um the same the safety of the mother and things like that for after after that right if the if it's to choose between the life of the mother um and and that of the fetus then then you choose the life of the mother well sure i've i've unfortunately been in that situation before where both were would have died um and it's very difficult it's a very difficult thing um but that's not what we're talking about this is what we're talking about now we're talking about we're talking about the majority we're talking about the vast majority of people go ahead there have been cases for instance in ireland where a woman was in sepsis and the baby was actually dead and inside of her and was going to kill her and they refused to do an abortion because they had laws against abortion and the woman and the woman died it was as a number of years ago i don't remember when but it was in ireland in the in in this in this because they had laws because they had yes in this decade so they had laws against they had laws laws against abortion right and so the fetus well i would before if the baby's already dead i would be i would be for that sure but that's like that's not properly speaking so you're in favor of abortion no no i'm in favor of that that's what that is terminating the pregnancy the pregnancy she's still pregnant the baby is in her and aborting and that was what was needed is it isn't it isn't an abortion technically even just a miscarriage it can be a miscarriage i don't think a miscarriage isn't that doesn't that i i'm pretty sure that there's a there's an actual term for that i could be wrong but uh i'll have to look that up then but i'm pretty sure that god do you think that uh a miscarriage is a crime scene i don't understand the question what do you mean do you think that it's possible if a woman miscarries should be should she be investigated for a possible manslaughter if she miscarries yes oh because she could have done something to prevent the miscarriage potentially is that what you're asking she could have she could have induced the miscarriage it could have been induced right i'm still not understand i mean that would be united if she intentionally if she intentionally induced a miscarriage so that she would she would miscarry the baby is that what you're asking no i'm confused by your question maybe [ __ ] has been how you can continually interrupt and talk over me i don't understand you've done it the entire time it's really quite frustrating so i think you're frustrating i think you have no logic whatsoever i don't think you're consistent but go ahead yeah good job so let's say a woman comes to the emergency room she says she's had a miscarriage should she be investigated by the police as a possible homicide oh i see what you're saying uh i guess it depends on the circumstances i guess it depends like has she been having has she been having prenatal has she been going to her prenatal appointments did they have any reason to suspect that hey she didn't really want this pregnancy to begin with she's but she actually she's been going to all of her prenatal appointments she's been getting her ultrasound she's been taking her vitamins she walked she walked into the emergency room you don't know any of those things that would that would come out in the investigation should the police investigate every miscarriage by uh pregnant women um i don't know if you would say full-blown investigation but if if not go ahead pikers you take it because apparently you've heard this question before i think this is a ridiculous scenario but go ahead uh i i have and i've and i actually have an answer for it go ahead no unless there's uh extraordinary circumstances which led to the miscarriage as such as uh drug abuse uh purposely trying to you know throw yourself down you're just you're just assuming that we already have knowledge that we have various things you're just assuming that there's knowledge present that we don't that we i mean is any of this gonna change the fact is any of this gonna change the fact though like this stupid little scenario that like if i summon if oh if securing somehow admits that we should investigate every miscarriage as a potential homicide yeah and that's that's i mean okay so then all there's all this body so then i'll just throw my there's put it in a box and then i would just so then i would just throw my hands up and be like okay fine if that's what's going on if that's there's a guy the whole scenario is absurd but but i mean even even if that if that's the best you have against why abortion is is is considered okay um okay fine i'll eat it i'll just say fine go ahead uh um then let's investigate every single one but then you have to admit because you don't really you don't really give a crap about that and you have to admit that no no you don't no then you have to admit you have to admit no you don't don't be duplicitous you have to admit then that the real thing is that you you just want to justify abortion because you think that women should have the right to choose it's not actually about don't give me the system no reason don't yeah okay so then this whole scenario of this whole scenario of okay well then kieran you should admit that uh that we should investigate for homicide okay fine if you're willing to admit that it's actual murder are you willing to admit that it's murder what's murder abortion no no it's not it's okay then i'm not willing to okay then i'm not willing to grant you the fact that we should investigate it as a homicide i i'm being petulant i'm not being petulant it's a stupid scenario it's a stupid scenario it has nothing to do it's not it's not that there's a dead body should the police ignore situations in which there's a dead body present according to you they should no yeah according to you they should abortion huh according to you the police should have their nose out of abortion a dead body is present and you don't think that it should be against the law to do that so according to you it's already been decided that under those conditions and i'm saying it's not it's not a one-to-one correspondence in the opposite direction there are clear there is there would be no circumstance under which a woman would come come to a doctor and say i've had a miscarriage by which looking at the nature of just that woman and the state she's in seeing that something is either extraordinary or not extraordinary about the miscarriage there's plenty just like [ __ ] said okay what if somebody if they overdosed et cetera and you're saying you're just assuming that you know all of those things well this is real life right we're talking about real life the very fact that there's a miscarriage is indication that there's a possibility a crime has been committed because i'm assuming that that we're living in a world where um abortion is illegal right so under those conditions right every miscarriage is a crime scene it's a possible homicide okay and i'm and i'm and woman if the woman mis uh deliberately miscarries uh should she get the death penalty well do you know we could talk about the death penalty if you want but i do think i do i i think that's so so here's here so here's so here's maybe you don't believe maybe you don't believe in capital punishment so here so here's here's where we have to draw distinction so with today's world and people like yourself that voice propaganda that abortion is not actually killing a human life and they're taught that from a very young age i think that a woman a woman has less well a woman is less culpable a woman is less culpable i think that definitely honestly definitely definitely definitely homicide definitely homicide of some kind yes uh but but murder but murder needs to have malicious intent at least of some kind or it needs to yeah she wanted to to kill that baby well maybe maybe she was taught by people like you that it's not actually a baby it doesn't it's not going to come up in the trial it should it's just no that absolutely should she be should she get the death penalty or how many years in prison should a woman get for for having an abortion it would depend on the case brenda just like it would depend on the case for anybody okay that's not for for for murder yes of course it would depend but in general what do you think 10 years it would depend on the case wouldn't it brenda and i personally i personally do i believe in penalizing the doctors who took an oath to not harm anybody that's who i believe in penalizing i think that women's just contrary to what you think i think women who get abortions are largely victims too okay we don't that's not how that's not how the law is done that's not how things are done well sometimes she is no she but she's could hardly be thought of as the victim because she sought out the the doctor paid him the money and had the abortion done so she's not a victim she's she deliberately she sold a bag she was sold in a bag of ill goods so this obviously is going to this is going to matter this is um from everything i've been reading on the internet over the years is that the woman who founded planned parenthood planned parenthood was actually a big proponent of eugenics yeah margaret sanger uh that's false yes at eugenics um that's just that's just again uh poisoning the well that's all you're doing right i don't see what that has to do with anything uh poisoning the well i've i've heard all of this before i mean the point the point the point is with everything the point is you consistently use bad art he was a creepo who i don't care this discussion isn't about margaret sanger so thank you for your contribution pico so the discussion is about abortion right yeah and so murder abortion abortion you're just presupposing that it's about that it's murder it has not it has nothing to do with it yet margaret sanger yeah yeah yeah i i really don't appreciate you bringing in this this this is just this is just obfuscating the topic the topic is i'm not obviously i'm not whether or not i'm not talking to you so i uh the topic is about abortion and pros or cons i'm pro because it preserves a woman's bodily autonomy because i'm calling it because and i'm because it eliminates the bodily autonomy and of the baby and the baby itself no it's not the baby yeah it's not a baby it's not a baby the human the human the human life the life the living organism that's inside the woman i'm i'm yeah if it's a living organism then yeah it is it is it is a life it's it's living tissue it's lemon tissue oh my goodness no no no no brenda brenda brenna this is simple this is like this this is so basic nobody even proponents of abortion will not say that this is not a human life from the point of conception this is what i'm trying but you did not you deny psr you deny you deny so many things you deny natural law you deny all these things you throw out basic logic and then you say something as unscientific as a uh um an embryo is not a human life from the point of control because because i understand when you say human life is it living is it living is it living so when you say is it living just disgusting that was that was get this piece of [ __ ] out of here is it living brenda i'm just gonna get him out get him off is it living get him out i can't i don't have the controls how am i supposed to do that the call is gonna end in two minutes anyhow i'm just asking you a question is it a liv is it living is the organism yes living tissue it's living no no no is it living i said so yes it's living human tissue okay and when you say it's a human life is it the totality of a person in that role in that human okay issue okay i would really like it if you would stop doing that stop interrupting me in the middle of my sentences you're acting very immature so it is a living human being it is a living human being in the sense that it is human tissue right but it is not a person when you say it's a human life i take that as you meaning it is in some way equivalent to some to a fully grown human being and it is not equivalent in dignity indeed in dignity absolutely and this is why i asked you the question as to whether or not because you said that it's inside the womb therefore no personhood and i asked you the question and i asked you the question if a third trimester fully formed baby with inside the womb is suddenly off and is is is not a person does not have personhood inside the womb and then six inches through the birth canal all of a sudden magically is conferred personhood and you said yeah that's yes yes so true so so going through going through the birth canal is what confirms persons yes so what about c-section babies what about c-section babies that's the other way to be a person yes so you're a person because you're not dependent on your mother yes on their body okay so my son's not a person yes he's dependent on my mother that's just you not understanding basic words but can somebody jump in here is this not is this not a logical argument your son it's the whole idea i have just i i have just i have just demonstrated to you that myself no you haven't yes you just demonstrated your inability you already you were already you already admitted that if i were to leave my son alone he would yes yes so i need to do something my body needs to use something in order for him to survive he's depressed he's not my body no he's not dude everybody listening to this can hear that you're just not taking you're just not taking the argument seriously or to its logical conclusion there's nothing else for me to do you're not understanding simple words okay all right holy crap dude it's a simple argument bro it's a simple this is probably a good good spot to end because we probably got 30 seconds left we got 30 seconds left but uh just uh shake hands be friends and be nice and all that stress no i think kirian is an [ __ ] hey that's not even how you rather not talk to him again i told you this would get heated whoops are you still there by chris yeah he left or not pikers pikerton leave listen i told him it would get heated if the topic was about abortion he picked abortion that's what it is and he didn't like the logical conclusions of the arguments i'm still here brother man it it is what it is so and pikas i appreciate your jumping in oh [ __ ] i guess that

CVS Live Guest - 2022-06-19 - Secular Rarity and Apostate Prophet

hey there welcome to the atheist experience uh your name is david is that correct yeah it's david from montreal i called in in 2017 so it's been a while oh yeah certainly has all right i'll just go ahead and put canada all right and uh david how do you consider yourself to be a believer or an atheist believer i'm uh catholic and last time i was on the show in 2017 i asked permission and i got permission to host the uh call on my actual youtube channel and my website and everything and you were kind enough to do that so can i do that again if i record the call can i put it on my thing like i did last time uh now let me go ahead and ask that real quick thank you all right you are getting the go ahead thank you very much that is fine i'm okay before we move on can i get your uh preferred pronouns he she oh sorry sorry uh i'm sorry i'm a guy so uh he him or whatever i don't know just all right yeah i was gonna find that a little surprising the old-fashioned just treat me like an old-fashioned guy and you'll be all right works for me uh little notes i got here the principle of causality reduction out absurd improve the existence of the uncascaded first cause god yeah the unconscious yes sorry about that um all right any other thoughts you want to add to that uh yeah i i don't want to talk about any of my faith-based beliefs i only want to talk philosophy and principle of causality uncaused first cause we don't even need to mention god but last time i called i talked about the principle of sufficient reason and he started saying yeah but what about the virgin birth and what about the you know incarnation and i'm like i don't want to talk about that i want to talk about philosophical principles so i hope we can stick to philosophy this time yeah well you know matt's not on the show this week right oh you're kidding who is it it is secular rarity and apostate profit okay i don't know them but i i mean i don't know anything i haven't watched your show regularly or anything so uh those are two guys well we both know that's not true but okay do you do you watch the show all the time no i don't watch the show i called in once in 2017 and i haven't watched it since um okay we'll go if you want to why would you do that why would you doubt that because i've screened your calls many times anyway you think i'm canadian catholic that's a different guy i've had him on my podcast oh yeah i had him on my podcast my name is david ross i live in montreal canadian catholic lives in ontario i think okay um and i don't sound anything like him my voice is completely different i actually do sound a little bit like him but um all right well anyway i'm gonna go ahead and put you into the call q and uh hopefully you get on the show and have a good time okay thank you very much appreciate it we have uh david he him from canada once who wants to talk about the principle of uh causality uh hello david how are you doing hey nice to uh nice to hear your voice i can't see you but nice to meet you nice to meet you too so what is it that you want to talk about well uh first of all do you believe in the uncaused first cause have you understood that that is necessary so i mean if you're if you're going if you're going to this whole necessary contingent facts uh type argument right um which the principle of causality i mean i'll just be honest is not something that i've spent a whole bunch of time in um but the idea of the idea of a necessary being you know that there was something that started it all i'm not really i i don't really find that to be super valuable when talking about uh god and stuff because it just kind of seems like it's something that we can never really demonstrate right um we do have some valid arguments well hang on hang on david i was i was in the middle of a sentence and it is terribly rude to cut people off it's okay uh but the the the point is that i i don't know that we can ever get past the the um soundness aspect of that stuff right we can show that logically speaking sure we can get some some well-structured arguments but when it comes to actually giving us a demonstration that that we can point to you know um to show that it is true in reality i i don't i don't know that it's terribly valuable i know that there are a handful of people that like it though so yeah i would very much uh agree with parts of that and also say um i mean i mean you could go and argue for um you know the you can argue that there is a necessary being from which all um you know contingent beings uh you know come for come forth or upon which they depend but it is um it takes a lot of speculation and discussion to go into what exactly that is uh if there's if there's just more than one if there is uh you know if there is a if there is a line or a chain of uh such beings and where it leads and all that and it will all rely on um further factors in order for you to point at a god who is that ultimate necessary being it always depends on the person and what they want to argue how where they are going to go with this with this argument but uh david go ahead yeah so i want to use a reduction to absurdity proof um basically we'll assume that there's not an uncaused first cause and the whole question of god and all his pure perfections that's that's a stage two okay we won't even cover that today but i just want to establish that we can know with certainty that there is one and only one uncaused first cause and i'll use a reduction to absurdity proof to do that so we'll assume there is no uncaused first call and you can interrupt me at any time okay um well just real quick and real quick then david because to be honest i think kind of one of the things that ap and i were just saying a second ago was that um let's just give you let's just give you the ball game man okay you won there's an uncaused first cause let's go to the actually showing that it's a god and your specific one we have non-religious arguments that accept the idea of a necessary being and it never takes us to god and we have ones that are religious it sounds like you have a religious one and you have a specific god so let's just say for the sake of the call like ap and i accept it there's a necessary being there's an uncaused first cause yeah how do we get to god from there i think that's what's interesting let's grant that there is another thing and okay great that was easy so uh is that necessary is that necessary being that uncaused first cause is it natural or not i'm asking you i don't even know what that means yeah i don't know is it natural is it natural i don't know anything i don't know anything that is not natural i i would just simply say we don't have a reason to accept anything other than the concept of natural things okay i don't know what non-natural things are right you don't want me to prove you don't want me to prove there's none cause first cause you just want to grant it for the sake of argument okay so do you want to grant this first call or not huh what david here here's the thing you're asking us questions in order to you know find um you know find your introduction to absurdity it's a reduction i can do both cases there are only two cases either they're natural or that's not naturally that's not necessarily the uh that's not necessarily how the reduction of absurdity uh is is necessarily formed you haven't even heard my argument what we're doing is what we are doing i understand that what we are doing here is we are granting that there might be a necessary being depending on how you want to define it or find it now please go ahead and uh you know i'm doing now i'm doing a reduction to absurdity now that you're taking it now that you've granted that there is a first cause an uncaused first cause i'm going to do another a different reduction to absurdity so let's say that you for whatever reason want to say that it might be natural so let's consider that case because there are only two cases either it's natural or not the ex the principle of the excluded middle tells us there's no third option so it's either natural or not so let's take the case where it's natural that if it's natural then it is space geotemporal right you agree with that only if we're saying only if we're saying that the sum total of what we mean by natural necessarily implies space and time and that may not be the case right it may be the case that there are other there are other types of existences out there than the local presentation of our universe exactly we don't we don't have anything concrete to accept that over the natural explanation that we already have um but but just categorically ruling ruling out other possibilities doesn't it doesn't seem warranted to me i'm not that makes sense i'm not forcing your hand here we can explore both avenues there are only two avenues right either it's natural or it's supernatural i'm presuming assuming perhaps well it's not natural or supernatural it'd be natural or not natural right that was it that was the true dichotomy you set up the second true dichotomy natural or not natural and what i'm saying is that the supernatural is not natural and it's above super super means above it's above the natural meaning that the uncaused first cause the necessary being is necessarily not natural and it is the source of the natural therefore we say it's above the natural you could also say it's beneath or more fundamental than the natural it doesn't really matter what the point is it's logically prior to the natural not temporarily prior it's logically prior to the natural and that's uh so we can we can go down this rabbit hole with the natural vision what that there is a is that there is a necessary being an originator from which everything originates so uh everything is a product of that the entire discussion about natural or unnatural can be reduced into that and it's completely pointless so if you want to go ahead with that please go ahead yeah well i don't understand what's pointless about trying to determine because either there's a first cause or not and either it's natural or not and with these two reduction to absurdity proofs we can know that there is one and only one supernatural or as you would say not natural that's fine by me not natural first cause and that's what everyone calls god so uh if you want to grant both of you i just think by establishing don't you think that by granting a necessary being as you want to define it we have already solved that problem long ago why are we still going through this yeah and you can just take us to your particular version of god that this proves because i i've had this exact same discussion with um muslim apologists with into apologists so well i mean you say that but they would disagree with you so they would be hardcore against whatever god you're you're positing i'm almost confident yet everyone everyone got everyone who believes in the uncaused first cause agrees 100 that we worship the one and the same god every all of us agree really every single one of you agree on that when you guys communicate that's a fascinating group chat i have to admit five no no uh look again i i think david david hang on hang on david i think what ap and i are trying to do what we're trying to say with this argument is that okay i guess we could argue forever on what that you know you know go back and forth on is there a necessary being first cause on cause yada hoda blah we could but for us it seems more interesting to actually try to get to the god and and so far we haven't we don't have any reason to go from okay there was a first cause to that first cause as god give us that connecting piece there that we're missing yeah i mean i don't want to burn in hell forever i i absolutely don't i am sure ap doesn't either uh please help us so that we we don't suffer that faith i appreciate you your humility there you're not far from the kingdom as jesus said so um oh good thing unless you're just being sarcastic when you said you don't want to go to hell but it is a horrible place you want me to talk about uh why the uncaused first god uh excuse me the uncaused first cause is god you want me to talk about that how i know that it's god yeah well have you heard of the principle of proportionate causality you ever heard about that no explain it to us give us give us uh give us a talk to me like i'm five moments and talk to us like we're five and explain it to us and show us how you know what i find so tiring about these conversations david it it looks like it always goes by a specific uh script that wants to uh you know spend so much time on so many abstract things instead of just making a point do you feel like always i feel like both secular rarity and i apostate profit as we are uh known i think both of us we just want to sit here and listen to the argument why do you believe that this necessary being is god instead of going through a very long script off do you know this do you know that and there's always so there's there are very few principles they're very few axiomatic principles of the natural sciences do you boys like natural science it's a yeah honestly whatever gets you to whatever gets you to show enough of god quicker the natural sciences you boys probably think science science science trusts the science right so the natural sciences are built on axiomatic metaphysical principles such as the principle of causality the principle of proportionate causality which says you can't give what you don't have everything every perfection that's in the effect is more perfectly in the cause okay and there are other principles like the principle of sufficient reason the reason i called today i thought uh matt would be the matt dillahunty because i phoned him in 2017 and we discussed the principle of sufficient reason i thought it was time to give them a call back but i didn't know it wasn't going to be there but uh maybe that's why you're not uh as prepared for the philosophical principles but these are axiomatic underlying that underlie the natural sciences we can't do natural science without these hands just a handful of principles david to me it sounds like in the time that that myself and ap were so generously giving to you yeah to try and get us to understand your god it sounds like you didn't give us anything and instead you just said that we we didn't know enough about philosophy which i'll gladly admit i'm i'm no philosopher david please i want to do one thing i want to give you one minute to explain to us why your necessary being is the one god that you believe in if we don't have it in one minute then what will happen the uncaused first cause is the next the only necessary being the one and only necessary being and he is necessarily the source of every perfection that we see in the natural material world right if we see any beauty any health any justice any goodness any truth it comes from necessarily comes from that one and only one source so it is the source of everything that you value love justice beauty goodness truth everything so it cannot be any other way you cannot sit you cannot grant me that there is one and only one uncaused first cause and say oh but justice doesn't come from that source or health doesn't come from that source or beauty doesn't come from that source or unity doesn't come from that source everything you're admitting that everything comes from that source you're admitting it for the sake of argument i'll grant you that but you're admitting it for the sake of argument so you have to see that every perfection that we have in this world is coming from that one source and that's why we worship it as god all right one minute is over i will give my response to this uh very quickly everything that you have said within those one minutes boils down to god is the necessary being because god is the source of everything because he's perfect because it can't be anything else and you can't answer this question in any other way now as said i am a complete idiot probably in terms of whatever you whatever philosophical level you expect from me but this is basically what i understand from those uh one minutes god is the necessary being because god is the perfect source of everything because it can't be anything else that my friend is complete nonsense you're relying on the assumption that that this god does exist and that he must be the source of everything that he is the only god that may be perfect and so on on many different factors that render this whole argument that you are making completely unnecessary because you will first have to go and uh that's addiction to us that this gods that's ridiculous i'm sorry can i defend myself i've used i gotta say i i think that uh that summary was basically it what i heard you say basically david was god is all the things all the all the good stuff in the world god's the necessary being that's what i heard i didn't i didn't hear the connection between us granting you that there's a necessary being and then why that thing is god how we know that that thing is god um again yeah maybe i do just need to read another uh a philosophical treaty out there maybe there's a maybe there's a book or or a youtube video i haven't uh come across yet but uh yeah much more than that can i say one thing for 30 seconds then i'll sign off okay we can use the natural light of reason without recourse to faith to prove using a reduction absurdity to proof that there is one and only one uncaused first cause and a second reduction to absurdity test to prove with equal certainty that that first cause is not natural and boom there you go you've got your source of every perfection that we see in this world they're not pure perfections in this world but they're they're perfection reflections of that true infinite perfection of god and we can know with certainty by the light of natural reason without recourse to faith so i thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk to you boys today and i hope you have a good sunday that was very nice thank you too thank you so much bye

CVS Live Guest - 2022-12-10 - Nikola Krcic and Aidan Lisney

but I wonder if there's any truth you know any truth to that I have no idea because I heard both sides like hell no and then I heard well yeah um there was a a section that were dark-skinned that were and they were Jewish you know like of course no big deal so I don't know so hey we're live with Cola Cola how are you doing brother vid what up vid we were talking about we were talking about yay so that's where our names colon vid comes from vid what up so uh yeah we could just keep talking about this whole issue about uh the Jews who are the Jews and you said a lot of black people in Hollywood are starting to speak out and say yeah identify with my roots which are Jewish and you know got the Ethiopians that are connected their roots in Christianity go really deep and even back to Judaism so there's there's a lot of history with the Jews and uh Africa and the diaspora of course but um I don't know that much about it I'm not an expert about it but what I what I like to discuss as a Christian as a Catholic what I like to discuss is the reality that there is in Salvation history there's a role played by the chosen people people the Jews that were selected by God and sort of put that emphasis on it and I think that's what the uh African Americans are focused on like hey we are the chosen people we are special it gives them a certain uh uh what do you call it not like nobility I wouldn't say nobility but um a certain value I guess like an intrinsic value if they can attach themselves to that and there may be some truth to it but I don't know much about the movement I know there was also a movement of uh so-called blacks or whatever African-Americans or whatever that we're attaching to Islam and the Black Panthers and all these black movements I don't know that much about it yeah there's a new one okay there's a new one that's that's growing like crazy they're called they call them the Black Hebrew Israelites have you heard of them maybe in passing just like the name but okay one of the bigger ones there they their organization called iuic um um Israel United in Christ is what that stands for okay and if you want some fun and interesting you know videos to watch just look up iuic and they are very hardcore militant um aggressive um reading the scriptures um and just they they really but it's it's it's like interesting to watch but I in the future in the near future they're going to be a dangerous crowd we'll see very powerful and dangerous okay okay yeah they they're not shy to use force and violence to uh well yeah they don't they're they're you can see they're already they want to at all times but they know that they can't just attack but but once they're in you know some kind of power I feel they're they're not gonna be able to control themselves and they're going to do some attacking it's that's what it looks like but right now they claim we are not a hate group and we are not violent and all of that you know so so they behave themselves overall for now you know but but just aggressive with words and just with yeah so well you heard yeah interesting you heard my talk about the the problem of the Jews that I did and I talked about the analogy of the prison and I got prison gangs Got The Black Gang the Asian gang the white gang and the all these different gangs I guess there might be a small Jewish gang in the in prison but pretty small gang uh we got Muslim gang whatever uh you know that's a total uh turn off for me because I don't think that might makes right I don't like want to impose the truth with my fists and Christ calls us to suffer rather than to dominate with worldly power if he said if I wanted to fight I got the legions of angels ready to come and fight but that's my Kingdom's not in this world so uh when you describe this militant black Israelite Nation or whatever it is is a turn off for me it's just like no you missed the point of Christianity uh so you share that sentiment with me I guess yep big time and and thank God for that you know thank God for that it's a wonderful thing it is hard to suffer with joy but it's a wonderful thing that we don't have to fight physically or or whatnot unless it you know unless it comes to it for defense let's say but yeah I'm not a fighter and I don't enjoy it and you know so yeah well I I recently joined Twitter and I see occasionally there's this one person that I follow I'm not sure how I discovered them but they put a lot of videos of sort of just people in malls or in in fast food joints or on the subway or whatever just scrapping and fighting it just seems like a bunch of savage animals down in the states there and I don't know if it happens up here in Canada but all his footage is from the states and the guy and his followers might be a little bit racist because they're always pointing out that they're black people doing the violence and all this sort of thing and maybe that's predominantly the case I don't know but um it's just have you seen that like is this something that happens like fights breaking out with civilians in the mall or whatever yeah it's funny I haven't seen it in person much no but I've seen a lot of video footage where it happens and is it staged yeah no I mean not the ones I've seen there are I'm sure there's some but no not the ones I've seen even in high schools they have like girls girls attacking girls in high school it seems I know is it a rite of passage like I've seen the world seems to be coming more aggressive even you could see it in the road rage while you're driving man oh yeah everybody's just angry and no patience and so the aggression is definitely churned up it seems just more natural and more the majority of people you know aggression is really high for some reason yeah scary stuff yeah you gotta learn to diffuse all that diffuse that situation I think that comes from all the godlessness you know before they would say a prayer in In School at least and yeah it was very more organized now it's just doing thou Wilt right however you feel and there it is you know it gets more aggressive and more I guess the devil has his hands and more stuff I don't know yeah yeah yeah 100 100 I see that in the world and how how can we ignore that I mean I was upset today looking at uh what they're doing in the Ukraine they're attacking the priests and the churches and burning icons because zelensky said he he sees that the church as a threat so he's uh send in the thugs to intimidate and to destroy churches and stuff like that and burning icons and I know I understand there's politics in religion and there there are two Orthodox churches in in the Ukraine one that's Ukrainian nationalist one that's Russian and so I can understand there's politics mixed in with it but still why are you burning the icons of Jesus Mary and Joseph it just doesn't make any sense if you're Orthodox and you you have some political beef with this other Orthodox Church you don't burn Jesus Christ you don't desecrate the church you don't you know put your hands on a priest or a deacon you don't do that right you have a political problem just go you know figure it out in the political realm why are you using violence and desecrating holy sites I mean that's just I would never do that I would never do that in a mosque or in a in a Temple Jewish temple or a Hindu temple or I mean yeah we could disagree with them but we're really gonna uh use force does that you know does that work a lot a lot of it a lot of it comes from there's a lot of misinformation or even some truth where they say well that's not really Jesus and he didn't really have that color skin so therefore it's Satan so so they switch it to that's evil because it's not really him so there's their green light so well let me burn it down then you know and take their aggression out on it because there's a lot of the now the Christmas is evil you know the Easter is Ishtar you know you're you're dying you're dying the eggs because they used to sacrifice their children and dye the eggs in the child's blood and all of this stuff is um it's it's all over the place making people yeah you know yeah so a lot of it so there's so they're saying it's evil and so these statues are evil and that's how people easily will attack it then yeah yeah but I mean even I mean I I don't know like I mean in the worst case scenario you got like an abortion clinic like I've been here in Montreal to an abortion clinic just because it was in the same building where my church uh my my Chapel that I went to I was temporarily housed in this building so I just walked in the office I want to see what's an abortion clinic look like and it's like high security they've got plexiglass this is before covert by the way they had plexiglass they had like uh you know you had to talk through a grate and you know you need to pass the security before you even get let in through a door into the waiting room it's like high security but um it like it doesn't seem like a solution for me to walk in there with with weapons and like fire right and to like kill the staff and like I mean that's extreme like this is this is the satanic religion an abortion clinic where they're murdering innocent babies and it still doesn't appeal to me the idea of going in and burning it and destroying it and killing people and you know it just it doesn't seem like the solution right that's right and it's it's not it's not but that's that's where the Devil comes in people's minds are especially when you call it you know they want to be they want to follow God so the moment you say well that's the devil's work there there's their motivation to tear it down you know I guess that's what they call they're being deceived that's what they call a bigotry because when you do something in the name of God you say by God by God and that's where the word bigot comes from by God by God oh my God okay wow it comes from black God so when it's when you're a religious fanatic hypocrite using the pretext of religion for your hatred and your violence that's what bigotry is yeah yeah I remember me and my brother talking about it and when he was a hardcore Protestant and I was dabbling in protestantism and he brought it up one time like questioning like would it be the right thing to you know um tear down this this abortion clinic or burn it down like he was feeling like that wouldn't that might be the right thing to do you know what I mean and I was just like no no that's definitely not you know it's it's it's not you know so it's like I guess that's how I know some heavy deceiving going on there man it is my wife often says you know she wants the bad guys to be killed she wants Justice now you know in in global politics like these world leaders that are just evil and I won't name any names but uh she wants Justice she wants heads to roll and I just keep telling her no it's not okay well maybe you know maybe God's going to allow a certain amount of rebellion and violence and Vengeance but that's God's permissive will at work his his positive will is that these people repent and that they get saved so yeah I mean God can use God can use Psychopaths and murderers and rapists and abortionists to accomplish his ends but that doesn't mean that we can condone any violence ever like we can't and so yeah we do want Justice we do want Justice and we want people to stop doing evil but the best way for them to stop is for them to be educated and enlightened and to free themselves from the grip of Satan and to decide rationally and freely I'm going to serve God I'm not going to serve Satan anymore I'm going to serve God that's the best case scenario the worst case scenario is they just keep up they keep on doing evil and racking up the Judgment that's coming from God and then on Judgment Day I told Anna I said look you want to see these people judged the unrepentant do you want to see the unrepentant judged just wait just wait for Judgment Day and you're going to see it's a lot heavier than just chopping their head off it's a lot heavier than that and if you want to see the Judgment you're going to see it just be patient and just wait because they're facing the one judge the the one they can't lie to the one that can be bribed the one that will not um wrongfully uh accuse or that's that's the best part about it it'll be perfectly judged judged you know yep and and and and and it is and and which I think I learned from you that us as Catholics we are to love even our enemies so I mean I've heard it love thy neighbor for I love God and love thy neighbor I've heard it before but you've pressed it a few times and and it's like we are to even love our enemies and the right definition of love right yeah um I'm not the worldly version of love but and it's just like oh yeah that's right we are and that that answers everything because majority of people are like your wife you know they want yeah yeah kill them burn them oh that's the rapist that's to get them you know they would they want to see that they want to they're yearning for justice you know but when you trust God and you know that the Justice is coming then then yeah we can be patient and wait exactly how you just said you know so let's just hope you and I are on the right side of God's judgment on Judgment Day that's right that's what I'm worried about that's what I'm worried about not you not so much you but me no I'm not worried about you I'm not worried about you I'm about me so I'm you know I spend a little bit of time worrying about Hitler and Trudeau and Biden but most of my time is worried about me it's like you know when I walk into a church and there's the Beauty and the both sides of the coin right the Beauty and the the high ceilings and the long aisle and the there's the beauty and I love it then there's the other part I picture here's my long walk to go face God Almighty that he judge me you know and and it's just like said yes so I know what you're saying yeah sobering yeah yep yep very sobering it's why we meditate on the four last things death judgment Heaven and Hell gotta keep thinking about that and yeah yeah and then it's so funny though it's like I try to have that even balance because every time you know I fear I have that fear of God and then I just say but all I can do is trust you God all I can do is trust you and I I always jump back and forth you know or a healthy healthy balance of it you know yeah and then it's kind of like the analogy is uh a father you know your Earthly father it's like you know he loves you yet when you broke the rules and let's say you took the car now you crashed it you got to go face him you're scared you know what I mean so oh yeah it's like it's like both you know it's not one or the other because a lot of people will just pick one or the other and I think a balance is is is is is healthy absolutely absolutely absolutely yeah absolutely I I do spend a lot of time thinking about the whole Faith versus Works thing which the Protestants emphasize a lot and I I find a very useful that we have the Protestants that are are emphasizing that and I listen to a lot of protestant radio at work and uh you know maybe a couple hours a week anyway and uh you know that their emphasis on faith versus works it's it's good for me it's good for me as a Catholic because I have a tendency to want to you know do my checklist and get right with god with a checklist and that's not the way the way is through filial love and obedience like in the fear of offending God to be good for goodness sake because I don't want to offend God who's all good so I really I really benefit personally I benefit from meditating on the criticisms that come from the Protestants and they're right about a lot of stuff and we can take what you know the valid criticisms and we can use it and we can also say that they're wrong in their criticism because the Catholic church is not wrong about any aspect of our of our faith Journey they're not wrong it's just how we understand it and how we place the emphasis of all the nuanced teachings of the church they're so nuanced and they're so it's in like you said it's not either this or that black or white it's like those Shades of Gray and both we have to have the balance we have to have that relationship and this is another thing that the Protestants talk about a lot which is a personal relationship with your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ boom that's it that's what it's all about but as a Catholic how does what does that look like and how do we how do we uh uh walk with God in the economy of Salvation that God has set up for us like he gave us a church he gave us a priesthood he gave us the sacraments he gave us all these things we can't ignore those we can't we can't just pretend that you know like I heard on the Protestant radio the other day they were saying they were emphasizing confess your sins confess your sins confess your sins and they always had to put a little footnote saying but it's not in the confession Booth with a man that's a priest but yeah it is that's the way God set it up like I mean you know so it's just funny that's just funny it's just funny you know the the emphasis they place on all the Catholic stuff but then they want to say but oh no no but it's not sacramental it's not the priesthood it's not this it's not that but yeah it is that it is sorry yep yep exactly and it and it it just boils down to it is all God's grace in some sense we're just complying with it but it's all him you know it's all his grace that's it you know and then there's a mystery there that we're not going to understand and that's where all this um um um this this arguing back and forth and debating back and forth on is because there's mystery involved there you know we're trying to put words but there's a nice uh beautiful mystery that we don't understand but it is all God's grace for sure you know and the more we do the more we're just complying with God's grace that's you know that's that's really what it is but um I can't listen to many Protestants uh today because of how much they Veer away but there are a few I can and thank God for our church because now I can listen to a few Protestants and be able to discern oh he's speaking great stuff right now and then what came out of his mouth burnt wrong okay and then but keep listening to the good stuff good and then again he comes up burnt wrong okay but then here's some more good stuff right so thank God for our church that allows me to do that yeah uh remember this name Nabil Qureshi do you have you ever heard of him Nabil Qureshi no yeah listen man please watch a few of his videos I'll tell you uh I'll tell you what amazing Protestant amazing okay he was a Muslim um converted to Christianity um um ended up getting cancer and passing away really young shortly after So within 10 years of being a Christian but you you won't find a a more sincere sweetheart honest smart man that just loves God that knew what he was talking about and and there's not many exes I could give them you know what when I listened to him he's very inspiring and and sincere you know it's hard to find sincere you know especially when somebody's up on stage or giving a speech he's very very very sincere do you know what's funny Ravi Zachary ended up hiring him oh so he was working for Ravi Zacharias for a little while and then he ended up passing away from a stomach cancer okay so the story is amazing but just grab any one of his sermon or his his talks and just listen what it's hard to find that that love of Christ and how he emphasizes love people you're here to love now and just amazing so just watch one at least one yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah send me a link if you will check out one of your favorites but yeah um okay yeah did you like Ravi Zacharias is he still alive and no he had passed away yeah he had passed away yep and then some dirt the some dirt was pulled up on him and everybody didn't know how to act like as if just because you're a Christian and you talk that you don't sin or something you know what I mean all right okay you know but I like some of this stuff and then some of it was too you can tell like he's a smart man but he he did some acting and some okay you know but whatever so I liked him a little bit he was smart he talked some good stuff but then I also noticed his acting and whatnot and his his image he want to show his image and whatever and this and that so why did do you know much about him or early on in my in my conversion I was listening to him [Music] um you know he didn't blow my socks off or anything but I thought he was a nice guy yeah I was watching a bit of uh uh that other famous guy uh Lane Craig Lane is that his name William Lane Craig yeah yeah William Lane Craig yeah yeah I was listening to him early on yeah uh I've since sort of realized that he's got some pretty wacky ideas in terms of yeah yeah yep but still yeah metaphysics and stuff like that and his of course christology or whatever it is is very very unorthodox I've come to understand but I haven't dug too deeply into it but yeah his essential beliefs on God of the Trinity or he has some kind of I forgot what they were calling it modal it may be modalism or something yeah something going on there but he's also he's also did a lot of good work you know just to bring people to Christ so the one that God uses everybody but the one I really really liked was Dr Peter krieft craved yeah yep the Catholic philosopher and uh yeah a lot of him early on nice and uh he seemed like a nice guy and uh Orthodox you know uh pretty middle of the road safe like uh not not trying to be uh eccentric or anything but just Wise Wise and humble that's what I felt for him too exactly um do you know uh David Anders Dr David Anders no uh he's a Catholic Theologian um one of the rare ones as well sincere down to the point emphasizes uh love of God and love of neighbor very smart but so his show is called call to communion okay it's also a rare a rare gem one of the rare ones hard to find um yeah so you'll like him as well yeah um hold on what was I gonna say before that while you were um we were on Ravi Zacharias and then William Lane Craig um Dr Peter yeah Dr Peter craved who else let's see um I think it was between William Lane Craig and Dr Peter oh okay I was gonna ask you because on your earlier podcast I heard you mention a few times to people about Jordan Peterson right you were just asking them has he caused any hype or whatever but you haven't mentioned him for a while what do you think overall of Jordan Peterson I don't like him I don't I mean I wish him well obviously but I don't I don't enjoy listening to the way he talks I don't like uh what he says I don't like the content or the presentation uh I wish him well like I mean I've got I've got a certain amount of sympathy for him because he's gone through rough times uh and I've got a certain amount of um what should I say camaraderie with him because he's very close geographically like from Toronto and like I'm yeah I'm born just a few hours away from where he was teaching so like yeah he's my fellow Ontarian fellow Canadian whatever so there's that there's that little bit of Pride like oh this Canadian guy like Celine Dion she's uh from Quebec you know and she's a big famous singer I don't like her music I don't like her music but I have a certain amount of pride like oh look it's just Quebec was woman and she's famous and whatever just you know I'm sure from your hometown you probably have some things I got Eminem Pride I live 20 minutes away from Eminem So yeah I got it yeah I drove by his house and he the Kmart mansion He had bought before and all of that so yeah yeah definitely yeah that's pretty cool I I do like I do like Eminem like I like the bad boy type of personality type so yeah I do like him the Rough Around the Edges Street wise kind of rough yeah potty mouth types that's my type yeah that's why I like you yeah uh it's funny though as um to Jordan Peterson like uh um yeah he has uh some wacky views or whatever but I feel like overall it just seems like God is using him to bring people yeah so God at least are just these atheists like oh yeah that's right God does exist duh you know oh really he's having that effect yeah definitely no way yes especially bringing people to respect the Bible to respect the Bible that it's truth Jordan Peter says stuff like it's not just true it's more than true and you know so he says some really good stuff and he's bringing yeah he's definitely just so I feel like besides those you know wacky views and not a grip on who God is exactly let's say yeah because we know that from the teachings of the church and yeah so he maybe is missing that but he's doing a lot of good I feel um that's good yeah just bring your little Ordinary People to just God that God exists at least and the respect of the Bible for sure I'm glad to hear that I'm very glad to hear that yes when I listen to him when I listen to him talk about philosophy maybe he's not a you know he's not a trained philosopher neither am I but his metaphysics is very weak and uh like I just find it hard to respect someone that's supposed to be a genius who hasn't figured out that God is real monotheism is true and then you know if he wants to be a Jew Muslim or Christian whatever it's like I'm not gonna I would I would be celebrating either way you know I'd celebrate another way and uh you know because like that example you gave of the Muslim who became a very sincere preacher and then he died uh his his monotheism was a very very very significant part of his journey into Christianity like it's huge it's huge so that's why I don't I'm not like the rad trats who hate Islam No I don't hate Islam I love Islam I love Islam to the extent that it's Catholic right and it's exactly it's a huge step towards Christianity and what's cool about what's cool about nabil's story is he brought his Muslim love for one God Almighty he brought that with him to Christianity yeah okay and that's what makes it that you know exactly what you're saying and what it's there is wherever the truth lies and people got a grip on it it's a good thing yeah it's a good thing and it's little do they know it's Catholic truth but it's it's still truth and it's a good thing you know so yeah yeah for sure that's that's how I see it and that's the way that the church which is Jesus Christ and his church teach that that that's exactly the situation here on planet Earth in the sick Fallen World everyone's hungry for the truth everyone even the the Satanist and the the abortionist they're out there studying learning trying to observe they're trying to gather the data they want the Intel they want to know they want to know they want to know and they want to understand and they're they're giving glory to God now they're not giving to Glory they're not giving to glory to God on purpose they're not doing it in a way that's conscious like saying I give you glory god that's the next step but the first step is they're going to give glory to God just through their Pursuits and through their being just their very being so like everything's giving glory to God the the the way to get to heaven is to give glory to God consciously purposely and to make a decision of free and rational decision to say hey God I glorify you I give you all the glory but um the those who sadly will end up in hell they also give glory to God while they're on Earth and even while they're burning in hell they're giving glory to God right yeah yeah yeah um it's funny because uh I was on this topic conversation with my wife like last week or whatever you're just driving and I was talking about God and whatever it's like these new that's why a new Guru could come out tomorrow when people love it and they they um they latch onto it right right away because it's like he's talking about what is our purpose here right what it's like these are the questions of a child why am I here that we all have right why am I here what happens when we die what is this you know all those questions that people still at we have that truth we're we're so blessed that God gave us that truth man and I and it hurts me that somebody's walking outside right now and that they don't know that the truth is right there for them you know yeah that it's it's there for them all those questions that they have struggling with every day that they have the truth there if they just reach out and grab it and that we're blessed to have it in the church through Jesus Christ you know it's it's it's really amazing it really is yeah so close yet so far you could be you could be married to someone who doesn't get it you know that's the sad thing they're uh they're couples like that uh one of them gets it one of them doesn't get it one said yes to Grace the other one hasn't yet said yes to Grace and Saint Paul talks about that in the Bible like you know you can sanctify your wife or you can sanctify your husband the unbeliever but he also says well you can't be sure that it's going to happen either right so Saint Paul says in the same breath like yeah you know uh you your faith can sanctify your your spouse but he also is realistic in saying but it's not guaranteed now if you know if I became a lot Holier and if I would kill my love of self I think I'd be transforming my wife and my all my family and friends just by my pres presence of just that christ-like thing that would you know indwell in the fullness of uh if I'm walking around like a saint right so I I do bear a certain responsibility for uh those around me too and that's why we have to take our own Journey seriously and say why am I not more on fire why am I still being selfish selfish and lukewarm like why like what I love how you said in one of your videos that you're like I'm always amazed how I'm always amazed how little I do for God I started laughing I'm like yeah that's me too I'm just so I'm amazed on how little I do man that's funny like I'm always amazed on how little I do for you so yeah it's true and that's pretty funny man but you know what's funny what you said it it's true and I see that truth right that if we were more like a saint we would transform people but there's also the other half where they Christ says for my name you know people will hate you right and will so I wonder where that balance where that balance is or just does it lie in each individual person or is it you know 70 30 it's a percent that we you know or and just that because sometimes I think of that as well because yeah you know you got the Protestant that's out there he made his sign with a big fire you're going to hell you're going to hell you're going to hell and then the moment they say come on man you're not doing it right see they hate us because we're doing Jesus Christ's work you know it's like they they use that right away it's like no no no they hate you right now because you're being a noisy gong as Paul said because you have no love right so you're just being a noisy gong is what you're being and that's why they hate you you know but yeah have you had this conversation with these Westboro Baptist Church types have you had the conversation with them I tried through the internet a few times these smaller Channels with a few guys I was like hey I'm just wondering if you would have a conversation one day you know with the Catholic because there they are Catholic bashing so the moment I hear the Catholic bashing I jump on their comment section I said are you willing to talk about because I've seen you know whatever I say I see a few errors in which you think the Catholics believe so are you willing to talk about it and so far all five of them are just like you know whatever they'll just respond they won't do it number one and number two is they're just repent sinner they go to me and I'm like yes I know um we are taught to repent and I do repent as a sinner so tell me something I don't believe you know already please you know but so I'm just like are you I'm asking you again are you willing to have a discussion I said and maybe you defend what you believe biblically and now you know and but they so far all five of them won't do it you know it was only about maybe five I reached out to they're little smaller channels but there they were with their sign of hell yeah and outside of Catholic Church two of them were wow um attacking people walking out of the Catholic church so that's what kind of got me a little upset you know yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah for sure for sure there's no need for that and this circles back to what we were talking about the militant uh religious Hypocrites the bigots and uh you know I can't I can't claim to be superior to these people because I'm not but uh we we have like I have a log in my eye but I can still see the spec in their eye you know what I mean so uh by the way I figured out sorry I just figured out why the analogy why did christ use the log analogy in the eye you know I was just randomly thinking about it one day I was like why does he use a log in the eye and spec why in the eye and it's just like oh when you got a log in your eye you can't see okay if you have something blocking your vision you can't see what's really there yeah and this is what happens when we have a log in our eye which most of us do okay we're not really seeing what's right in front of us we're not seeing the truth we really can't see the logs in the way yeah you know yeah yeah so um total blockage of your senses yep yep exactly yeah sorry to cut you off exaggerate it no but it's it's interesting but uh you know one of the criticism I had of that uh just sort of a hypothetical Devil's Advocate sort of criticism of that parable was that like if I'm able to see the speck in your eye and even in spite of the fact that I have a log in my eye okay granted I have a log in my eye but if I'm in spite of that log I'm seeing the speck in your eye isn't it still isn't it still charitable for me to say hey you got a speck in your eye and I could even remove it for you so uh this is just playing Devil's Advocate and I'm completely missing the point of the parable here kind of on purpose just just for fun well I know what you mean yeah but that's why he says remove the log out of your eye first then you will see clearly he says or you will see clearly the room remove the speck out of here so the I guess the answer to my little question is because it's not very not a serious question but the answer is that I'm not seeing clearly enough to do the delicate removal of the spec even though I see I might see it or I might be seeing something that I think is a spec but it's actually not because I'm not seeing clearly that's the problem yep yep there's that as well there's that as well or you can I think it's depending on the person and the relationship and with the you know if it's let's say your blood brother you can or or your close friend you can or maybe your wife you can but is it really a spec that's all that's and what you just said that's true so you know it could you're seeing a spec that's not there maybe or there is a spec that's truly there you know it might be it might be I just thought about this it might be a spec in my eye that is projected in the field of view so I'm seeing this this dark spec but I think it's on your eye because I'm looking at your eye but whatever I look at I'm going to see that spec because it's in my eye yeah because if you ever stared into this clear blue sky and you've seen those floaters like the weird the stuff that's on your eyes so I'm thinking like that like where I exactly misattribute that to the sky like I'm like oh have you seen the things moving in the sky no that's not in the sky that's in your eye yeah yeah yeah you know it's amazing how much in this world that what we see is actually um perspective yeah and we we walk around thinking I just I see what I see and that's it right right there's perspective and there's interpretation of it and it's amazing the difference it's mostly CGI it's mostly computer generated imagination that's what it mostly is because when we're able to look for even a second like how Christ sees somebody that that's a human being that he loves that he died for that all of a sudden that chunky girl is is I don't see her chunkiness no more you know what I mean and I don't see her and there's it's just amazing but yeah we just walk around like weekend like we know it all judging and we see it all right then we uh wrong interpretation that's for sure yeah yeah that's why we're spiritually blind that's what it means and uh yeah luckily yeah I mean you have the gift you had your encounter with God and with Jesus and you you can see through the veil and you're in touch with uh the mystical reality and more than most that I've met you know in the church or out so still poorly still weekly still so much improvement just just so you know it's still much more to go yay of course it's at the beginning but because it's funny my spiritual journey too has been like I never prayed as less as I've been praying lately okay oh yeah but when I truly examine myself it seems like I'm stumbling uphill because I always include God in in my thoughts as I'm driving as I'm I try to include him in the sincere way now so I'm not doing the formal 20 minute half hour hour prayers as much as I was before let's say but I've never been including God so consistently and so sincerely and through my heart and through my mind and know that he's listening and trust that he hears everything and trustee knows my heart and Trust so I'm kind of stumbling uphill I would have to say or I would hope to think I'm stumbling uphill at least you know yeah yeah yeah but I definitely need to do more formal formal prayers and more now get to the written ones and the ones from the Saints and I definitely have to do that more because I'm a lazy slothful mess that's why yeah yeah you know no no but you you uh your journey is similar to mine in that uh in the past couple of years like we were talking about before we went live I've really been struggling with my faith the the prayer life the sacrament's been suffering because of covet and other things so yeah uh but I have had this movement toward the spontaneous connection the um recollection the recollected state I'm not saying I'm good at it I'm not saying that I'm like in the zone but I'm more prone to just have that gentle connection reminder of recollected state where it's just like you know the idea that I've been toying with to help me because I'm sort of depressed spiritually because of my life my spiritual life is suffering the past couple years so it brings it brings a bit of sadness and just depression so um that comes from Pride too thinking like oh who am I to you know to think that I'm you know even worthy to be a Christian right so there's probably there's always Pride if there's sadness and there's joy if you're a saint if you're in love with God then you're not worried about being a loser and a pervert or whatever right so um that's what the Saints always say like they're in Joy because they're not focused on themselves right but what I've been doing lately is thinking about like have you ever seen where the um like you can go to teach your parent day or whatever like bring your bring your teach bring your parent to school and he'll tell I'm a fireman this is what I do in front of the class and the daughter is very proud of her daddy and like introduces her best friend to her daddy and this sort of thing so that's what I'm trying to do with Jesus I'm trying to bring him with me to work bring him on bike rides bring him when I'm eating bring him and have that Pride like and also I'm gonna be on my best behavior I'm not gonna be like checking out hot chicks while I've got Daddy with me you know what I mean so that's right uh just that awareness and you know it's a bit of a psychological trick to say hey I'm going to bring Jesus with me and it seems like play acting or fake or phony or imagination but you know it's real you know it's real you know that Jesus is beside you he's inside of you he's with you so it's just trying to trick yourself into getting in touch with that reality that mystical reality so I'm trying I'm trying to have more of that and to feel less guilty about my formal you know set prayer life my set prayers I still pray my set pray prayers every day but it's not in a very connected way it's more just going through the motions so I'm benefiting from this other side project which is like you said in between the prayers in between the prayers just being having that simple awareness and it's in the moments of uh you know because I'm in sort of a period of despair and sadness which is forbidden by the church but I'm that's just where I am so um during this time I'm sort of the consolation I guess you could say is dabbling with that simplified presence of bringing Jesus with you and I think that could uh open up a new chapter in my prayer life so then if I get out of this rut then I can have both and I have Jesus with me during my prayers and have connected prayers and yeah stuff like that so it sounds like you are doing something similar yep it is it is I just got to get more to some of the formal ones and spend more consistent time let's say in in straight straight prayer but but all day I'm doing the and I keep a bottle of holy water in my car so it's like daily I'll do at least the holy water sign of the cross you know um yeah just always just and including them in my thoughts and my prayers and random just when I think of something good that I have let's say like my children or my wife or some good happens or I just smile and give them a thank you God I love you and just those those their sincerity to him you know that's trusting trusting him yeah that's a sweet moment of intimacy and that's yeah that's what the Protestants want us to have and that's what we have we have that right and more like we have that available to us we have it available to us everyone has that available to them and like you said it's like some people go through life seemingly with without even giving it a thought that they have gone and then they have the God man Jesus Christ that they can that they can love and worship and enjoy that friendship with that intimacy with right yeah like like me not to get too personal let's say or whatever but me and my wife been bumping head um for a few weeks or whatever or a few months let's say um for a good reason you know we we moved in with my mother for now or whatever so we'll bump heads or some or whatever and then I'll just I'll pray to God you know to just help us help this guide my marriage guide her guide my mother whatever and then just all of a sudden like my wife will come home and she showed me a prayer book that she ordered she's like look this came in today that I ordered that I have to do and I I give her a smile I turn around and right away I look up I'm like thank you God you know like give him the thanks you know right away because I know if it's left to me if I guide my marriage completely on my own uh forget it forget it man I'll tell you that much so so I beg God and it's like you know when he just answers I I try not to never forget to thank him and just you know so you know I've been I've been Catholic since 2009 and to this day since the beginning it's been how many years now 12 years 13 years to this day I still forget to pray before and after my meals but I'm getting better I'm getting better because I started a spiritual Journal so I keep track of when I say my prayers so it's helping it's helping and uh but just to put it in perspective like I've been Catholic for 13 years and I still struggle just to give thanks to God from the food that I eat think about that think about that so that tells you that the patience of God and the long-suffering exactly just reminded it reminded me of one in Nabil qureshi's um talks he start the man has cancer okay they told him he has nine months to live okay he had just passed nine months so he has maybe Days to Live or hours to live and he starts out with the well let's pray let's praise God please oh God he says thank you there's so much to thank you for he says there's so much to thank you for first that you gave us your word and written you know the Bible or whatever but he says but this means we can read he goes and then this means we have eyes he says that we can see oh Lord thank you that we could even see and then think and he just goes and it it really melts your heart and it really humbles you to help you realize that I forget to thank him for my two legs that I could walk in my two hands and my two eyes and my taste buds and my ears that I could hear did you ever watch a video of a child here that can hear for the first time and then his reaction and then the parents reaction and and we have that every day yeah okay yeah and we and yeah we didn't thank God our our whole floor 30 years 50 years on this life for it yeah we're so we are so selfish we are so so that's all I know Alice and cold yep hearts of stone hearts of stone big time man Place My Heart of Stone where does it say in the Bible please replace my Heart of Stone with the heart of Flesh what was that I know we're used to it I think I'll look it up yep I forget I forget that's what it is it's My Heart of Stone man yes it's a mystical magical fairy tale I'm the little wooden puppet boy I want to be a real boy I want to be a real boy it's like the light like I said I use this once with you in one of our videos but it's the light bulb plugged into the electricity talking about I'm the light bulb I'm the big strong light bulb given this room the all the light I'm doing it all and yeah as soon as I screw him out of the electric he's done for it and I drop him and he just crashes all over the place and is nothing now that's what we are man where that light bulb plugged into God and yeah we just forget to think you know Ezekiel Ezekiel is the Book of Ezekiel 36 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you I will remove from Your Heart of Stone I will remove from you Your Heart of Stone and give you a heart of Flesh that's always been one of my favorites that's from Ezekiel and I think Jeremiah says something about this too that's awesome I knew her you know I will give you yeah in Hebrews you know and I ask you is do you know what the church teaches about is every human being considered a child of God let's say even if they're going to hell or not or is it just the ones that are going to make it to Heaven that are a child of God or is it just the ones that were baptized do you know anything about it I've heard all those different uh ideas and I I in my personal reaction to the Dilemma or the quandary or the controversy my personal reaction is to just say well it depends how you're using the word and you're I'm okay with using it this way or that way or the other way but let's be honest there's a difference between being someone that ends up in hell and being someone that ends up in purgatory and being someone that goes straight to heaven like those are the those are the things that we know are distinct categories like you know the Saints who Skip Purgatory altogether because they they did their Purgatory here and they they loved God perfectly their their qualitatively different from People Like Us who are not yet Saints and maybe you and I will get there in this lifetime but for myself it's not looking too good right now um and then the reprobates you know those poor souls who say no to God ultimately and end up in hell like there's no there's no higher contrast possible than thinking about the Saints and thinking about the reprobates burning in Hell there's just there's no contrast uh more powerful than that so when it comes to labeling oh which ones get the label of child of God well I mean let's say that they're all called the child of God well there that doesn't erase the difference between the reprobate and the saint it doesn't have any bearing on anything and it just introduces confusion so if you want to stick with one definition just pick one and we'll stick with that but if people want to have different definitions then let's just be clear about what we're talking about are we talking about a saint are we talking about a sinner we're talking about someone that's going to go to hell because those are the realities the ultimate realities right and the label yeah the label could be used a million different ways I could use Son of God to talk about this coin here like this coin this is the Son of God okay so now we're gonna have a debate like oh whose definition of Son of God is it David's definition with his coin well yeah who cares who cares about the label right like if you're talking to David in his coin shop and he's got a coin called the Son of God in that context that's what the word means and big deal right so it's all it's not about it's not about the word games it's about the Ultimate Reality and where we're where we're headed and those are the three those are the three uh three categories you know and and the reality I guess in the this way that everybody's a child of God that God died for them yep and they have that gift if they just reach out and and if they want it yeah like a lot of the the rad trots will get very particular about word usage and I think it's a trap of Satan I think it's a trap of Satan because yeah you know the Ultimate Reality for example in the in the new Mass the novus ordo uh uh they will nitpick on some of the wording right in the English or vernacular or whatever language it is not in the Latin but in whatever language and they'll get picky about the language but I think they're completely missing the point and they're making like making a big stink about uh something that's non-essential really and it's a distraction and it's a cheap shot and it's not it's not getting to the heart of the matter and you know a hundred percent agree yeah I understand because what if the priest has a stutter now what right up and see you have to follow that same level of argumentation if you're saying the words matter that much yeah now well this pre-stuttering well maybe he hasn't consecrated that host yes strong accent this is my buddy you know it didn't work see it's the combination of it it's this it was the intentions are at play it's God's will at Play It's then it's the words as well then so there's more than just you know the words that's that's for sure this is not magical incantation with you all the dance moves right on the dance floor and then God's gonna jump through your hoop no yeah exactly yeah and uh how the devil's the devil could grab us you know in any the saddest one though is when when One Believes to be following God like I think of I would say Peter diamond the diamond Brothers is who I think of and then that my heart hurts because he really thinks he's doing God's will you know completely but then the division is causing as bad as a set of a contest you know yeah it's it's really bad and it's just like gosh how the devil could grab us in any angle when we're not if we're not Vigilant trusting him completely and just you know I don't know but it's bad it's bad because before I would easily fall if someone is dressed nice and has a Bible in their hand he knows what he's talking about that's that's all it's all in support you know it's like yeah all he knows what he's talking about he's trustworthy it's like you can now you see that that oh that's far from the truth you know that is far from the church yeah yeah so I have a question for you it's a hypothetical situation okay so uh you go to a a different uh Parish or your Parish has a different priest or whatever for whatever reason or maybe it's your your long-standing priest whatever whatever the situation is the background for whatever reason the during the sermon this particular priest says something and it's unambiguously anti-catholic case it's just not Catholic okay it's not Catholic so um he talks about the real presence is just uh you know it's a way for us to understand the symbolism and this and that but it's not really transubstantiation is outdated and we used to think this but now we understand it's not or whatever or he says something about like Love Is Love and homosexual unions are just we have to bless them and whatever or like says something where you understand in your own hurt that no this the church does not allow this like a women priest or whatever um something that you are convinced is wrong and that it's it's anti-catholic so what would what would some examples be where you have the nerve and the courage after Mass when you go back and you're shaking hands with the priest uh which they do in some parishes um where you would have the nerve and you would feel the responsibility to talk to the priest or make a at least make an appointment to talk to him and say hey I'd like to talk to you about um something you said in the sermon like how far would they have to go where you would have the nerve and the courage to say I have to tell this guy I have to talk to him I have to if not correct him at least make sure that I've understood him correctly and yeah what kind of like how far would it have to go I would say it depends on the topic but see the one you picked is is essential you know like the Eucharist if he's saying it's now truly the body and blood or it's just a symbol that would be enough to approach him in a loving Manner and ask him do you really believe this or was this a slip of the tongue or whatever so so if it's essential like that that's all it would take but if it was something a little minor I'd give him a few strikes like this is this what he believes maybe he's having a bad week whatever and if I keep seeing strikes you know then it'd be like yeah but it's all about I would still approach him in a respectful way as as a child and just be like do you really believe that you know and so where then it would leave no conclusion I mean no no other way out that if he said like yes I just believe it's just a symbol and that's all it is or whatever I would say okay you know I think the church teaches something else I would just tell him with love and I probably would have to not come back there you know yeah yeah yeah I probably just wouldn't but I wouldn't do it like and it'll be you're a heretic because again I believe really Paul meant what he said man if it's not in love and sincere it's just like you're just uh yep you're a noisy gong that's it and you can see that and so so yeah it wouldn't if it's essential I I would I would you know I would hate to but I would do it for sure and if he wouldn't change his view on it then you know but uh that would be enough to push me away you know but God is still awesome that that don't mean the Eucharist is not the Eucharist you know yeah even if it's that priest that don't oh yeah yeah for sure Believe it or he's having his trouble for the moment or whatever so yeah I met a priest who is a monk and he was Italian I met him when I first joined the church and he was the most one of the most touching priests that I had met at that time early on in the in the church and probably still to this day because he was just very sincere and humble and and uh he had gone through recently before I met him gone through a period of almost atheism as a priest and as a monk okay so he was describing to me how painful it was to get up and to go through the motions as a non-believer or at least in a crisis of Faith like I don't want to put words in his mouth because you know I I'm not sure if he crossed the line like into atheism or whatever but it's certainly a crisis like just like confusion doubt whatever and uh he was just explaining how painful it was and how happy he is because something happened like God moved in his life to give him the clarity that he needed and to bring him back to the fullness of his faith and he's so on fire for the faith now and all this sort of thing but he went through that you know that crisis of Faith as a priest as a monk can you imagine how embarrassing that would be yeah yeah just internally like with his dialogue with himself and uh you know tentatively reaching out like God if you're real like I'm in a weird situation like I'm I'm your priest but I'm not sure you exist and um yeah I'm representing you but I don't believe or whatever like that just must be an awkward how many priests are going through that that's right how many priests are going through that they they have a hard job man even sitting there and hearing our confessions and just doing that on a daily basis it's just wow wow wow you know I can't imagine that's a tough job it really is yeah that's why the graces are there The Graces are there but you have to as I've learned over the past couple of years it doesn't matter how many Graces God's offering you if you don't if you don't quite if you don't cooperate with those Graces it's useful it's useless it's rendered useless by your own self-love your own will you know your your Godless selfless uh selfish will is rendering null and void All The Graces that God's given you that's right so like I mean I talked about a couple of times like my prayer life and how even in my darkest times like wallowing in the muck of sin and this sort of thing over the past three years occasionally how I would still do my prayers but it's just like a completely void and vacuous empty Hollow thing like just completely like today when I'm praying today like today I'm gonna I said my morning prayers I'm gonna say my evening prayers whatever it's kind of like you know sixty percent uh Power or whatever you know it's it's never been at a hundred percent I've never I've never really prayed really well ever but um you know I think I've got up to a good 75 80 power of prayer like where it was like I was into it and I was connected and not distracted and and not being flooded with weird thoughts or whatever but you know today my it's still mediocre but at least I'm not in that sort of where I can I can really feel like when I when I let the demons in I can feel their presence it's like a hollow sad confusion and and distraction and like yeah you're not fully there you're not fully alive and yeah you don't have the peace you don't have the clarity you don't have the vision you don't have the the the sanity you don't have uh that connection and it's just like I wonder you know I wonder for the atheists because I was atheist most of my life and I never felt I didn't feel like that you know but now now that I've been given the grace of conversion when I let the demons in which is a voluntary act like hey yeah this is pleasure I like it let the demons in when I do that you know it's a palpable thing it's like it's like you can tell the difference in your mood and in your thoughts and everything so um it's sort of like a privilege I get it's sort of a I'm trying to see the Silver Lining on this this past three years where I can actually see that wow like being Christian being Catholic is real because now I can feel the difference between letting the demons in and kicking them out with confession and uh and the sacraments are you have you have you gone through that ever since your conversion your reconversion or do you have you never let the demons in oh man of course the demons always creeping but you know my story is is long and I had a an amazing amount of consolation when I first reverted back to the Catholic faith yeah how many years ago was that um five just over five years now okay yep it was as my it was while my wife was pregnant with my first child my daughter so she's five she turned five so it was just yep so that's how I know is the age of my daughter but um oh man that constellation was amazing for two weeks three weeks straight the most the time I try to say God or God Almighty or Jesus I would burst out in tears and start crying I swear it was like I couldn't even say his name without bursting out in tears and gasping for some breath the whole year getting the Eucharist by the time I got up there I was I'm like this balling in tears man tears of joy tears of unbelievable men unbelievable you know so uh so then after I had that for like two years straight you know and then once that that kind of went away got and then is like had to learn how to not let the feeling yep not let the feelings guide me and now I'm just really trying to learn how no matter how I feel yeah that I still stay with trust and with prayer and with love with God and love of neighbor and while trying to love neighbor you know just you know and just trying really hard to to to do that and you know the little I do it's so little and it's just like wow you know so wow but yeah but but definitely definitely and again it's all for a good reason because God knows best you know he gave it to me when it was right time and he took it away when it was the right time you know yeah and it was to learn it was to learn um to make me a better person for sure you know um so but now I'm really really just trying to to still be in the world but not of the world trying to live a normal life without without veering away from my Catholic faith you know trying to have the balance of it you know and not let my feelings guide me no matter what you know of course I'm not gonna feel like going or feel like praying or fear at times or whatever I'm trying to find this consistency where this is automatic no matter what and then any extras and cool and but at least those basic and those sincere and those no matter how I feel I'm you know that they be there yeah that's all yeah well when I think about like we talked about earlier with the faith versus Works thing and of course we can't work our way to heaven and all this sort of thing and we just have to be good for goodness sake and our our ability to correspond with the grace or cooperate with the grace is in and of itself a grace of God and all the glory goes to God and all sorts of things but you know uh I do like I mean and I also mentioned the other aspect of this whole struggle which is um Pride the pride of thinking well you know I went uh 10 11 years being like uh you know my behavior was better whatever like for me personally like the first 10 11 years until covid was just like pink cloud and just like you know no thinking back on another few lustful thoughts but not not a lot but um I was in control and it was just like the high the pink cloud like riding on that high of the conversion of the constellations and all this sort of thing but then there's the pride there's that pride of thinking that you are you know you've arrived somewhere or that you have you're untouchable like Satan can't touch me these sorts of things yep so I think I think I'm trying to give myself the Silver Lining to say well my pride is under attack now and God's allowing me to fall and show how weak I am so that I can learn not to trust myself only to trust God and to learn not to trust like you said my feelings not to follow the feelings but to do what's right because it's right and you know it's right right like every time I sin I know it's wrong every time I sin I know it's wrong whether it's being lazy at work or whether it's checking out the hot chick is walking down the street in the summer or whatever it is like I know it's wrong but I think hey it's right there it's easy it's quick and it's just uh it's pleasurable whatever I'm just gonna indulge in my sin because I want to right and I know it's wrong and you know you God will not punish you for any thing that you were not aware of doing wrong he will not punish you for that right that's that's called innocence when you just make a mistake unwittingly that's innocent he does not punish the innocent he punishes you because you know you knew it was wrong and you did it anyway so I'm trying to I'm trying to uh I'm trying to benefit from this painful three years of realizing that I'm a sick miserable Sinner and I'm weak and whatever and uh like just learn from that accept that and be humbled by that and then get to the next stage which is like Saint Paul like I was thinking about Saint Paul while you were talking because Saint Paul learned how to enjoy being rich poor wet dry cold whatever yeah you know yeah good fortune bad fortune it doesn't matter like he's just you know eyes on the prize Eyes On Christ and so like that's that is the goal I've always known that's the goal but you know it's like we get discouraged easy yeah yeah and the you know every day at work I'm like oh I'm annoyed I'm annoyed by the people at work I'm annoyed by the task I'm annoyed by the demands that are made on me I'm annoyed by the traffic if I'm out of traffic whatever like everything's annoying and I have the thought you know that comes to me the religious Pious thought that comes to me that this is this is good this is purification this is my Purgatory this is you can use this the this is an opportunity this is an opportunity but you know in the abstract I like the idea of the opportunity but in the moment it's just like this is annoying I want it to end exactly and I don't want to suffer I want pleasure I do not want to suffer I want pleasure I want pleasure right now I want to go home I want to sleep I want to eat I want I want to go to bed like yeah so in the abstract in theory you know suffering suffering suffering you listen to all my 300 plus episodes on my podcast I'm always praising suffering but when it comes down to it any mild inconvenience it's like not now I don't have time for this now like what that you know in theory it's great yeah it's great but I don't want to deal with the mild inconvenience now or some annoying yeah some annoying jerk at work or whatever it is like a mystery the mystery of knowing how to link your suffering to Christ's suffering and I'm still trying to figure that out you know maybe sometimes I've done it here and there for a second or something but I'm really trying to figure that one out too that's the goal that's the precious goal that's the alcohol because I know I know it's possible to suffer with a smile on your face I know it's possible I just haven't got there yet that's but it's possible by God's grace it's possible and um and I think we it's there for us you know we just you know I don't know I should pray for it unless I saw a documentary about uh gutter oil do you know what gutter oil is nope I don't know if this is true or false but I saw a video it was a woman in the streets of China a poor woman with a big um like bucket on a stick and she was reaching lifted up the uh the great on the street and she reached down into the sewer gutter with this bucket and she was scraping out all this sludge and uh she was loading up into a barrel and brought it back to wherever she processes it and she extracts the oil from this sludge from the streets she sells it to restaurants and hotels to fry their food in so wow it's called gutter oil it's like very toxic and carcinogens but it's oil and oils high in demand and you can process it you can make it sell it and it's a way to make money okay so if you think about if you think about this it's like disgusting sludge from the streets that is considered waste it's useless it's garbage okay people don't even want to look at it they don't want to smell it certainly they certainly don't want their french fries boiled in this stuff right but for this woman who's poorer she's like hey there's value here I can make money I could feed my family whatever I could stay alive so the reason I'm talking about this is because if we if you and I were able to transform waste and stuff that Society hates like garbage uh dog crap or whatever like how much dog crap do I see in the streets of Montreal in the summer right bags little you know fluorescent green bags full of dog crap like imagine if that if we had the secret recipe the Alchemy to turn dog crap into gold and we suddenly be the richest people on the planet because like people are literally throwing this crap away and we just we have the Alchemy we can transform this into into gold and we could become very very wealthy right so this is the spiritual analogy to uh suffering if we can learn to transform suffering into the sufferings of Christ and then we have that wealth of being the son of the king of the universe the son of the King of Kings and the brother of Jesus Christ the son of God that's that's that's like the Midas touch like the the crap the suffering the inconveniences the road rage all that sort of stuff suddenly becomes transformable by this Alchemy into this immense unimaginable wealth that doesn't last a day or a week or a month or a year or a century or it lasts forever right like we're gonna have all eternity to enjoy being rich like it's a crass way to put it but that's you know the same even the Saints talk about this analogy of the wealth of of being a child of God so uh I mean we should be putting all of our efforts into that Alchemy into that transformation how can we learn how to suffer with Christ how can we learn how to suffer with Christ yeah because that's the ticket that's the ticket and the people in hell are going to be kicking themselves thinking why didn't I look into it why didn't I find out how to become one with Christ and to enjoy eternity with God because that's where the pleasure is that's where the enjoyment is that's where everything good is life and relationship and love and health and beauty and everything that I wanted while I was you know running my shitty business here on Earth everything that I wanted and dreamed of is in heaven it's inaccessible to me now because I'm in hell so like we should we should take this opportunity the short life to prioritize getting to heaven and and extracting that wealth that we're being offered because uh like you said I I believe we can do it and God wants us to do it and he'll help us if we ask him and uh well let's start like let's start baby steps let's start trying and I know you've been trying I've been trying but uh it's not easy right I know I know it's funny because uh Mother Teresa of course mentioned that a lot and you get these atheists they'll grab that clip and call it such an evil person for it because she prays suffering you know right or she seen it correctly the way we couldn't we the way we don't yet and they don't get that of course they don't understand it you know yeah it sounds it sounds cruel you know yeah but if you realize you're gonna suffer one way or another yep in one way or another it's like um and he him saying that is suffering in one way as well and it's just like it's it's it's available to us I just yeah I want to learn how of course well just think I'm just think of just think of the abundance of opportunities to suffer just think of the abundance it's like everywhere it's everywhere but I also don't agree because I um about on this hand now um I was watching some random stuff and there's these guys and wherever and in different countries somewhere and they they get themselves crucified literally in the Philippines okay yes the Phil yep they do that I don't agree with that okay I don't no no no no no no no we don't agree with that at all no no no no I'm not talking about I'm not talking about seeking out suffering yeah suffering saying I'm not talking about that that's forbidden by the church what I'm talking about what I'm talking about is that it's gonna come your way yeah they're going to be so many uh things coming your way where if you're gonna do the right thing it's Gonna Hurt it's gonna cost you something that's what I'm talking about that's what I'm talking about exactly so those are the opportunities I'm not saying hey I've got this heavy object I could bludgeon myself with this heavy object did I show you my new did I show you my new crucifix it's awesome I've seen it on your last uh video you showed it that's awesome where'd you get it from you said uh like a charity shop secondhand shop I think yeah no I think a lot of these places they go around to recently deceased family estates and they buy or it's maybe it's donated but whatever but there's less and less religious stuff in these charity shops I've noticed less and less there used to be more yeah there used to be more stuff yeah because people they're not as many Christians now right right did you see I think I sent you through email my cross that when I was a teenager like 18 19 I seen it at a uh a shop a charity shop or whatever for like ten dollars yeah it was all black it's like this is big it's like about 16 inches tall did you polish and it had me stone I what it did it was painted all black I repainted it white and then I detail painted Christ and the blood and everything and I redid it it was it was pretty cool you know yeah yep and this was before I even I always knew God was real right but this was before I reverted and all of that before God gave me the grace to come back to him and stuff but I just randomly did it I don't know why but yeah but it's pretty cool where's it hanging now in in the living room at home okay you know it's been for a while yeah that's pretty cool your wife likes it yeah so that was fun uh-huh yeah yeah that was fun to do though just the resellvaging it too it feel like you brought it back to life kind of you know yeah it's pretty cool yeah well I give I give a little kiss to my crucifix here I was trying to think where should I kiss it and I decide I guess the feet is the best place to kiss the crucifix yeah what would you do if you wanted to kiss the crucifix it it's so funny I'll either do the um it's random whatever I'm feeling at the time I don't have a specific one here's why though I don't kiss it too much I still have the little I battle with I do not want to fall into any form of error idolatry yes so so I don't fully you know release on in on images and statues I don't um and I don't know I don't know if I should I don't know if I'm missing something I do do it okay but I I'm just very cautious with it I do it one out of five times maybe one out of ten times that I see it you know and I so so um yeah so I'm just I always wanted a I'm the same way I'm the same way but I I've just got such a clear understanding of my own desire to not fall into idolatry and idolatry is such a stupid silly idea to me like it's just not appealing at all so I know you understand that everything every sacramental every crucifix every every time I use holy water anything I do if I if I make the sign of the cross whatever it is I do I categorize all of these sacramentals as prayer it's just prayer with gestures it's just prayer with gestures and there's no confusion in my mind whatsoever like I could take this image of Saint John Paul II I give it a kiss it's not full of emotion it's just a gesture it's a prayer yeah it's just a prayer what does it mean I know exactly what it means it means you're a saint you I love you because you Saint John Paul II you loved God how did you love God you love God by the grace of God so all the glory goes to God I'm kissing the image of saint of a saint and it's just a prayer saying I love you because you by the grace of God you love God yeah yeah yeah it's the same thing with uh Jesus Christ the God man Jesus Christ it's like I kiss it it's not full of emotion it's just a gesture it's a prayer it says you are the God man you didn't have to take on flesh but you did you took on flesh by the will of God you took on flesh and you died for my sins and I love you because because you're perfect because you're God Almighty and because you died for me and please help me and it's just a prayer and the gesture is uh is a token it's a token of love it's not completely Hollow or vacuous or devoid of feeling but it's not overflowing with uh some misplaced feelings or something like that or a magical incantation or like if I kiss it three times and do a sign of cross and dose myself in order and then jump on one foot or whatever it's not it's not like a ritual like that it's a spontaneous it's a spontaneous thing that acknowledges that I am a human with a physical nature I have a body I can my gestures matter if I do the if I pray when I pray in church I always make the prayer hands I don't have to do that I just choose like I'm a physical body I'm going to use my physicality and the church uh recommends it actually the church recommends that we recognize that we're physical beings and that we have uh you know holy postures reverent postures and less reverent process I could walk into a church and just be like like that right I could do that I'm not going to do that I'm not going to do that why why why am I not going to do that well it sends the wrong signal to people around and it would in seem to indicate some level of disrespect or whatever now does that mean that does that mean that I think there's some power in flipping the bird in the church there could be like there could be some demonic power but it's only the power that God gives to the demons and that God gives to me as a Satanist to walk into the church and to do my demonic gestures right yeah but it's like we need to understand like the power of the power of a good gesture the power of bad gesture It's All Coming Back to the glory of God either way so I mean if you're clear it's basically it comes down to like which which team are you on right yeah like why do you do the sign of the cross like a Protestant could ask me why do you do this on the cross because I love God and because God exactly in his Mercy he's given me a church which you know in the economy of Salvation this is uh yeah you know it's just like it's just the way it is no you know you know which other one because that it's minor like I said it's just there that I want to be cautious and whatever right it's mild though it's small because I do do it okay I'll pray in front of the statue and I'll also kiss the statue at times and touch it whatever so but it's just caution you know what other one that I have a line that is is like caution and I just I want it to look different is when I pray to God almighty and then I pray to Mary I almost I don't even want it to look the same okay I feel like there should be a way or I want to find a way or what's the right way that my prayer to God Almighty is so unique and different from all the rest you know okay and I feel guilty almost if it looks exactly the same where I pray I'm on my knees and I pray God Almighty I love you and our father who are in heaven and whatever and then like instantly just switch to him Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with you now my understanding is I know it's all through him with him and in him Jesus Christ okay so that helps me all right but I I just I want it to be different I want it to look different I want it to be you know what I mean almost like that there's a distinction for a reason between latria dulia and hyperdulia right okay and you know this right yeah the the the distinction and Mary's the only one that has hyperdulia right yeah and then yep so it's like there's a distinction in the words uh I also want to make find that distinction in my physical as well you know what I mean that's kind of yeah yeah I'm a bit distracted because our friend uh Aiden listen he's in the chat is going to join us actually here on the video call uh yeah what what I would say what I would say in response to your your caution and your jealousy for God is uh I'm I'm happy to hear it I hope you respect any any uh movement of your spirit like that you want to be safeguarding the rights of God okay so you have to respect that and that's good that's a good thing uh if you want to get more comfortable uh you know you can just take steps in terms of communicating uh you're understanding your unique understanding of the hierarchy of God and the angels and Saints and all that sort of thing educating yourself so you're comfortable with it and then understanding how the church teaches about the whole hierarchy and how uh you know those differences between latria and duly and hyperdulia just making sure that you're on a solid footing because I I personally I'm at I'm at a different place where I came into the church very jealous for God the Father I didn't believe in the Incarnation didn't believe in the trinity um so I with a lot of caution I approached uh Jesus Christ a lot of caution but oh here's our friend okay hello hello hello what up what is that you're ruining you always perfect timing to ruin everything man it's been so long it's been a minute I keep seeing stuff I keep seeing you posting stuff and I'm like very scandalous title and I'm like oh very Catholic content like the Jewish problem and like big letters at all that was very measured and well uh weighed out so hey hey uh Aiden and uh Kieran or no not Kieran sorry uh Cola my my stupid Google me is gonna force me to make a new link so I'm gonna make a new meeting and send it to both of you and we're gonna hop right back on the call okay okay sounds good bye foreign what's this guy's name Cola hello hello so we're just waiting for but the boys to hop back on the call here do hope they got it hey hey are you there hey hey hello everybody's there you bet we're we're here and we're not queer so I can't hear Nicola I can't hear Mr uh Cola turn your microphone on can't hear you just say something say something can't hear you no can't hear you hang up and rejoin Nicola so uh we'll settle the technical issue another technical problem I have is I can't figure out how to get you on top of him on the screen I wonder if I could is there a way to shape my screen better how can I hide myself hide me can I do a top and bottom thing does that work oh there we go that's better I'm so glad you uh you joined me uh me too man what the hell I know I thought you hated me not at all I ignoring me I've moved like 16 times in the past year oh my God painful more or less but uh yeah dude um which state are you in I'm in Pennsylvania right now okay and which other states have you been in Florida in Florida then I was in South Carolina and then and then then uh Pennsylvania which city are you near right can you hear me okay where are you where are you living um Detroit area Detroit Michigan okay okay I'm I'm egotistical I think everybody lives near me so hold on you're near your brother now yeah I was just with Karen actually oh yeah cool yeah yeah yeah there's Kieran right there hey Karen how's it going huge that's a girl that's a female cat right yeah that's Cali all right sorry just to let you know guys I got about 10 minutes left that I have to go but anyways let's so we'll enjoy it what were we talking about okay we were talking about this yeah yeah look there's a there's a distinction with prayer that it's Julia um you have latria to God alone and then dulia and Mary gets hyperdulia right yeah okay uh so there's obviously a distinction there in the meaning and in words so I I feel a little guilty that I want my actions to look uh water keep talking that's that's kind of all all so I'm trying to find for example last week um I went into church to pray and after confession and what I did was I literally I went down and kneel down like how a Muslim does basically with my head to the floor yeah praying to God Almighty and then I got up on my knees and then I did my prayer to Mary and whatnot so I I you know I don't know if this is just in my head or am I on you know on my own to something there that's important and or or what you know what I mean David did you hear did you hear what I said or no no no I was grabbing water but uh the basic oh it's okay I all I said was this I I want it to be a physical distinction so what I did last week was after confession I went into the church and I literally got down on on my knees and my forehead like a Muslim how a Muslim prays okay just to pray to God Almighty yeah and then after my prayer to God Almighty I stood up on my knees and then I prayed to Mary okay so so am I am I overreacting am I is there you know is there something there not what I I'm not sure but I'm trying to find it and I just you know no you're not I feel like it's important but no my uncle and I were having a discussion about this months ago just about talking about when we talk about uh the communion of the Saints and so it's like it's very I think it's important to say rather than saying oh yeah you can pray to the Saints rather how about we solicit the prayers of the Saints so there's like a type of communion that there is a unitive aspect to um our Brothers and Sisters in Christ and that you can join in with them in like a deeper level than what we could ever imagine but through Jesus's you know the head and um and so there is this communion that that does take place but I do think it is important for us to say especially um you know around Protestants or people that might be scandalized to say like oh yeah I ask for Mary's prayers I don't pray to Mary but again it depends on how you're using the word pray because like older English says pray means to ask for but nobody means that now when we say pray we mean worship if we're praying to that's equivalent in our language in our English language to say I give worship too and so yeah yeah dude um I think that if the angels in the Bible were like stop down down in front of me then like to take a similar approach with Mary and say like I'm not going to bow like get down like I would in a reverend way before God just because but but didn't the angel does it say did the angel it don't say if he bowed to marry or not or or did he no it don't say no why do I picture Angel why do I pick your angel on one knee in front of Mary though for some reason but anyways um it probably wasn't the worship it was just again reverence I don't know yeah I think John uh 8 27 says Thou must not bow down to marrying statues I think I read that correctly what do you what do you think David that was the King James version that's right no no but then we do have a church for a reason I just wanted to know since it's you know specified in words and there's the meaning there I just wonder if there's any actions that you know or is it just completely safe it's completely safe 100 completely safe if you understand like the the image that I have which is given to me by the church which is that Christ is ahead and Mary is the neck all of The Graces come from Christ through the neck through the neck which is married to the body which is we're in the body so to me I'm always putting God the Father first that's me I put God the Father first and I Think Jesus Christ did the same thing he pointed us to the father and Saint Philip asked to uh for Jesus to show them the Father and Jesus said well if you see me seeing the father so I think Mary can say the same thing if you see me you see my son and so I think uh Pope Saint John Paul II as an example or Saint John Mary the Vianney as another example they would say or Saint Paul would say imitate me as I imitate Christ and it's always it's always this uh relay race like this chain thing that we're all linked together as parts of this one body and Christ is ahead marries the neck and like I'm the butthole or whatever I hope to have that privilege it should be it should be it should be said though Nicola if it helps you yeah yeah like in your frame like your framework like you're scaffolding for everything yeah you know I but I think it's when we start like putting it on other people and saying like you need you XYZ you know yeah yeah I just I'm more mindful of it because half my family is Protestant and then the other half is yeah whatever you know you know what I mean so then they're like yeah you know statuary is complete completely foreign to everybody and so even just having a statue itself you know um yeah freaks them out or images of Jesus even yeah because it's funny um I'm actually a little jealous of the Muslims that two reasons is they do the well the like I just said I did last week right with my head to the floor they do that and they also dress that you know they're Muslim yeah you know yeah so I'm like literally jealous of that I'm like I wish people when I was walking around they knew I was Catholic without a shadow of a doubt right away you know big that big too yeah so so kind of like that you know but I agree 100 I agree 100 I wish our women dressed modestly like the Muslim women most Muslim women that I see in Montreal and north where I work they're the Shia sect and they're in their full modest dress which which I find very uh it enhances the beauty of the woman you know yeah yeah and it glorifies God like I always think about God when I see the Muslim women yeah yeah when I see a western woman when I see a like some sexy woman in Catholic Church like exposing her skin I don't think about God I know that's right yep not a good thing man he was not down and if he showed any of your arm oh man women only or men too I think dudes I think he was pretty yeah no skin don't show your skin don't roll up your sleeves man don't well I I like watching snooker it's a British table game like pool but uh just today I was disappointed because usually they wear like a suit and today they were wearing like t-shirts and I was like oh this guy's arms are hairy it's distracting it's like my arms are hairy yeah it's distracting you know like put you put your suit back on like I'm not I'd never wear a suit but I was kind of distracted that these guys weren't David you're busy you're a proof of evolution man you're a missing link I like that a lot enamored by um Franciscan spirituality lately um nice uh how do you uh how do you think I can make my prayer life I'm pretty much just exclusively like picking up my rosary these days I'm not really like like rocking you know the boat I failed at my mental prayer practice because all I can do is I'm like I just want to hold my Beats you know that's like what I wanna like I'm drawn to which is good because you know that's like okay Riff on it baby yeah um but uh any advice uh or any thoughts on how to um make my prayer life a little more Franciscan well I don't have any specific advice um did you were you listening to uh this whole episode I was doing with no I literally just got on YouTube okay my new red Rosary with the with the with the holy spirit with the Holy Spirit on there and uh yeah I like it it's red and wooden yeah it reminds me of blood yep White Knuckle your way through [Laughter] if you had been listening to our our talk you would know that um Nicola and I are going through similar sort of dark phase with in terms of prayer life where um the set prayers aren't really we're not really getting into it quite as much and we're going more to the Protestant thing which is just like bringing Jesus with you everywhere you go being aware of him and just it's great yeah that's completely it's a Catholic thing and the Protestants have that right I think so for sure so but they wouldn't call it that they don't know what I don't think they have a name for it I don't think they understand I think a lot of them have read brother Lawrence but I think a lot of them wouldn't understand um that concept so like if they like I think a lot of them if they like understood Catholic spirituality they're a little bit better they'd be like what is this yeah yeah yeah yeah so uh in terms of you know like I mean uh the set prayer my set my struggle with the set prayers has always been the same which is I have to get through this as fast as possible you know that's been my neuroses and my psychosis the whole time like for the past 13 years with prayer right and they're uh my only the only prayers I benefit from like and that I'm sort of recollected in are the short spontaneous prayers I've always talked about this on my podcast I love you thank you like and and Nicola was saying the exact same thing it's just like during the day like appreciation and just like a spontaneous acknowledgment like yeah you're God and wow that's amazing whatever yeah like those are the best prayers those are the best prayers those are the ones I connect with and you know they're quick and easy and spontaneous and it's just but it's part it's again it's part of this battle like I'm in love with myself and the my freedom to do what I want to do and so it's like I don't want to do these set prayers because I could be doing other stuff I could be doing other stuff so what I'm trying what I'm trying to do now like I'm I'm not a good example of a Christian but I'm using my troubled state to my advantage in a certain sense when I do my set prayers it's like okay yes I'm not really paying attention and I'm not doing it well I'm just running through it fast but the Silver Lining is I'm torturing hopefully I'm torturing any lingering demons that are still in me since my last confession like just let's let's zap them with the microwave of these set prayers like I'm not enjoying doing these prayers I'm not really paying attention but let's focus on the fact that they're really not enjoying it do you think that that's what dryness is is like a purgation of those those hopefully hopefully yeah I hope so I I mean I want to I want to I want to get to the place where I'm attentive during prayer and I'm connecting with what I'm saying or what I'm visualizing if it's the rosary or whatever like I want it to be deeper and more meaningful but it's not and it hasn't been except like I said for those spontaneous prayers where sometimes I can get like consolation I can get like a real high or whatever but I'm not also I'm also wary of like chasing after the feelings or the Elation or or the Joy or the consolations right so that's another aspect of it but there's a healthy balance I think where like you mentioned Padre Pio like he was just like in touch all the time in his prayer life and his like it was all prayer life right it was just like there was is no break in between the prayer life right right yeah yeah his whole his whole life was cultivated prayer no and I feel this pull to keep coming back to just like 20 minutes of just like pure mental prayer every day whether that's from a book or from like a simple thought or whatever and I have a hard time doing that because it's like basically and by mental prayer I just mean like interior prayer like um uh just a structured simple like the Jesus prayer would be mental prayer for you what was that the Jesus prayer is that a mental prayer for you yeah it can be but no it's not it's not my personal go-to in this case it would be more so not being um glued to a specific devotion or concept because I need to be like freed from that desire to like turn something into a formula so I know God's saying like hey stop like you're the rosaries excellent and you need that in your life and I know that I'm being called to pray more of that and I know that I'm called to specifically praise uh for my wife every day so it's like you need to devote a certain amount of your prayer to your wife and your marriage because that's the vehicle for Grace and so I know that the rosary is like the main player in that but I also know it's like hey you should also probably be picking up your Bible on a daily basis and um you should also be practicing a little bit of just regular mental prayer where you just come to Jesus at the end of the night and like chat with him about something you read or um whether that's just you know going through my day and like being like intentionally repentant for all of my sins because it's literally like I wake up and I try to be sinful it's literally just like I wake up and I'm just like you know what can I shove into my fat face and then like like what's the easiest connection I can make with other people and the easiest connection I can make with other people is always to make them laugh yeah and the easiest way to make somebody laugh is to be inappropriate and so like in nursing you're either laughing at something that's inappropriate like that's inappropriate or horrific or you're drinking or boozing you know what I mean you're like you know what I mean like the the self-medicated yeah so yeah you got the best route with humor I guess because drinking doesn't really turn out nicely at the end of a long time a long career of alcoholism versus a long career of inappropriate jokes I think you're better off with the jokes but you know what though I know that I'm called to be better than that yeah and I had a priest tell me in confession the other week because like so and it wasn't it wasn't like uh mean I hope but he was like so when are you gonna man up and I was like I was like oh I'm like I don't know bro and you're like uh when's that other priest gonna be in the confession yeah like wow I shouldn't have gone to St John's this week should have gone to Saint Benedicts um you know but uh took it took it on the channel and I've been thinking about it I'm like yeah what am I gonna man up and um I love when the priest bashes me by the way I I don't know why I love it I used to take pride to it and stuff and be like you know I love it when they give it to me I'm just like good I deserve that you know so you're better than me so Nick Nicola Nicola what's your advice to Aiden because I know you have to leave soon what's your advice to Aiden about this uh struggle that he has with changing his ways because I'm in the same rut I'm in the same rut with different you know um and all you got to do is become a saint that's it like that buddy that's all I mean what are you waiting for I know I know there is really it's like I've been turning away from Jesus I have this icon of Jesus that sits on my desk right it was my grandmother's and um all I see is Judgment in his face these days and I know the Lord's like yeah sit with it like sit with it until you pass through that judgment or whatever it is it's like if that's your punishment take it in and it's like he's not judging you dude you're you're casting the judgment on yourself with through your actions and it's like just sit there and take it now so you don't have to take it when you're dead yeah and uh I still don't wanna you know I still don't want to sit here and look at that image because I'm just like Ugh you know I just want rest I want it to be easy I want to just like flop onto the ground and let the Lord Carry Me and the cross yeah yeah and I want him to feed me bon bons you know yeah yeah I'm right there with you man 100 percent yeah I might crawl onto your back and then we can both write exactly he can pick all of us up and that's the thing he did he didn't do that so it's like you know it's like okay you just have to um you just have to keep turning to him habitually turning to Jesus every time we fail and saying I'm sorry please help me I'm sorry please help me I'm sorry please help me and not being oops yeah exactly exactly but the cool thing is when when we're the cool awesome most awesome thing I think is when we're forgiven we're truly forgiven of what we did it's gone and that's just amazing that's amazing like when I hear those words I absolve you of your sin I'm just like wow yeah as soon as every time I'm like wow my soul is lifted it's it is completely different yeah I still get this shock like wild I just can't believe that that you know like he's that good and that he could even do that and will never rub it in my face and just it's amazing why why is there not a lineup outside of every confessional every day yeah much less every Sunday or whatever but it's like the people because I'm not that bad yeah well that's scary I mean I knew and I I loved oh sorry I was I love the fact how we have both too because the Protestants will say like don't confess to a priest right right confess to God it's like well I have both actually and I confess to God all the time and it's like and that is important I think a lot of Catholics will maybe forget yeah they'll only wait for confession you know but it's awesome to be able to confess to him right away knowing he heard you well that well and that's powerful he confesses wins to one another yeah in the Bible so like even then like the Protestants have a hard time standing on scripture for like denouncing the act of uh of confession because is that a Wawa coffee you're drinking right now by the way Tim Hortons coffee okay I was thinking like I'm like we're getting down with some Wawa right now anyway I never heard of it there's such a basis for for all the sacraments I mean I know it's not explicitly spelled out but it's like okay so if Protestants really heed scripture then they're gonna have to at least confess their sins to one another and I want to know what that looks like tangible it's written down in the Bible you better take those words seriously yeah you know what's funny what you said when I I wish I knew how to make videos okay to post them on YouTube I wish I knew because here's one video I would do I would do that all these Bible verses that we have that will put it points you and you get the image of what's going on in the Catholic Church okay like for example when Jesus says this is my body and this is my blood we have that image where the priest goes like this right and then you look at the proudest and it's like maybe they're passing juice around maybe not okay but that's only one example right and then confess your sins to one another get the Catholic or get the Protestant Image First maybe you could show two guys saying hey I'm sorry but then show the Catholic version with the priest right there and the and the Catholic on his knees saying um forgive me and you know it's like we all the images man the powerful of what the church has for us you know it's like we there's so many of those Jesus Christ the worst co-worker in the world and it's just Jesus and his work is always completed in whatever his role is it's like he's just sitting there eating a sandwich in his garbage truck and they're like Jesus what are you doing he's like I'm done Jesus sitting at the nurses station Jesus don't you have to go past meds they're all healed that's funny even even the other one is um you are Peter and on this rock I build my church show the Protestant Church they're like they're just looking around then show the Catholic it shows uh say Pope Francis you know it's just like we have the image to fulfill these Bible verses it's so cool you know you know what so I just heard something the other day Trent Horton was talking about the on this rock I'll build my church first right and he renames Peter at that moment and in the Bible every time somebody's renamed they're given a purpose so people that try to argue against The Rock of the church being Peter um like that moment there it's like well the renaming this moment if Jesus is referring to himself as The Rock the whole thing doesn't make sense it doesn't it don't it doesn't shape up so and thank God most even Protestant theologians they do recognize that and they'll just say it is on Peter but it's on his faith only and it's like well we have both this on him his faith and what does that mean I don't get that so okay so if it's on his faith okay so I know I don't know what just ignore I'm not sure I'm not sure yeah still but you can't let's pray to Mary you know yeah and she helps me a lot I know all the time have you had um an experience with Mary like a specific one no not Mary um now Mary unless that was her heart in my dream that day and not Christ let's say but I just had an amazing dream I think I told you guys I did boy the huge human heart was just there above me floating uh and so unless that was Mary's heart but uh it seemed like if I had to pick maybe Christ's heart or I don't know but nobody would come completely deceived yeah that's true could be yep you know when the the so-called pro-choice pro-abortion people talk about the uh my body my choice and all this and I asked one of my pro-abortion friends if if it's normal for a woman to have two heads and eight limbs and all this sort of thing and he said yeah when she's pregnant it is yeah so uh they want to identify the Flesh of the the child with the Flesh of the mother but in the case of Jesus and Mary it actually is genetically the same because there was no human male seed it was the Holy Spirit so it's the only case other than Adam and Eve I think where we have the same flesh literally the same flesh so I think I do think about uh Jesus's heart and Mary's heart as being the same flesh and the Eucharist being the Flesh of Mary that's what I do think about it that way and it's not I don't think it's Blasphemous because it's not in the spirit of blasphemy and it's just a you know a Pious belief and I think the reality of that's where he got his flesh from right yeah isn't that just the reality yeah the reality yeah it's the reality yeah you're okay with that Aiden yeah well and the other thing is too father Galloway put it like this you know they found fetal cells in mothers like 20 30 years after their children were born still floating around and circulating in their bodies so even if you were to say Mary's flesh was well she had half and then God provided the other half of the deep whatever whatever you want to try to say she still had fetal um cells floating around in circulation in her body so like she contained the Flesh of God um her entire life I would assume I don't know why he's texting me here let's see oh it's a centerpiece she shoveled on she showed on Christmas stuff here oh tis the season to go shopping right actually I've been I've been so I was bringing up the Franciscan stuff because of the Nativity and because of like the centrality of the Incarnation in Franciscan spirituality right yeah other than focusing on the death and Resurrection they focus on the Nativity yeah and like um just some of the coolest um just some of the coolest uh fluid spirituality I mean coming from New Age bullcrap and yoga like I I resonate so much with like um Orthodox theology but Franciscan theology in the Catholic tradition is like this mystical very mystical yeah this really mystical very cool thing absolute prophecy of Christ yep yeah and basically like like um like the Incarnation of Jesus like um I think it was Carol houselander spoke about like the um the inscaping of the of the infancy of Jesus basically being like reflective of the crucifixion the passion and like um I thought that that's like kind of profound because there's this suffering Christ like in the midst of the animals and um you have like all of creation represented there you have you have the the animals you have the poor you have um the Jews you have the Gentiles you have the the Angelic host you have this whole like ecosystem right there in the Nativity and um it's just like mind-blowing when you like sit down and start to parse through it very exciting what does does Pope Francis play any role in your Franciscan love affair here he's I thought he's Dominican he's just is he just okay so he's but he took the name Francis no he hasn't really but you know I try not to think too hard about the pope these days because I um don't wanna know and that's where I'm trying to come from like General like generosity was you know like I just want John Paul II to be alive again and be the pope you know like I just like he's your favorite I yeah I mean he's cool like come on well who's your favorite Nicola your favorite Pope yeah I mean from what I know of Pope so it would just have to be him as well John Paul yeah how about yours David likes Benedict because Benedict Was a Biblical Theologian and he was like he knew how to party like he knew he knew how to like drink the beers and I I always say smoke the ganj I always say my favorite Pope is Pope Francis because he annoys a hell out of the rat traps that's one reason I like that that's one reason the other reason is uh the mystery I like I I don't want to have a pope where it's like I understand all his motivations I know what he's saying I know why he's saying it there's no ambiguity I I don't want a pope where it's like it's just David 2.0 right in Rome I don't want that I don't want to agree with the Pope I don't want to agree with the Pope I don't want to have uh you know I don't want to not be challenged by the pope I'm I'm challenged by this Pope and I believe he's I believe he's a good Christian I believe he's a Catholic and that's challenging given the fact that he seems to believe in evolution and he seems to want to push you know certain medical interventions and stuff so uh but the the you know I want to I want to not lose sight of the complexity of the human being and I want to be able to love someone that I disagree with and I want to be able to see the light in amongst all the junk like the junk Pope Francis brings a lot of junk right it's like a it's a junk pile like every human life here below is and uh he has the potential to be a saint and he may well end up being a saint I don't know uh I'd like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt that they may end up being a great Saint and uh I like the complexity of that uh like they say in fiction when there's a sort of not a pure hero but a complex here what's the word for that where it's someone's sort of a mix of Good and Evil but you're rooting for them like there's a there's a dynamic no this is a term for that where the the hero is uh anti-hero I think that's my friend I wouldn't say that Pope Francis is an anti-hero I mean I mean you can probably give them more credit than that so no and honestly dude my anger for the radical traditionalist Catholics far outweighs any kind of irritation I have with Pope Francis so like the idea of like Taylor Marshall like squirming like in his chair like I I just I really like I like that so I'm gonna I'm gonna intentionally I'm gonna start wearing Pope Francis shirts and I'm just doing this I wish I I made a sincere prayer the other day I hope uh uh I hope my wife's not listening to this but I was praying that God would Grant her a love of Pope Francis because she really hates Pope Francis with a passion and she does my wife and I was praying also that she would come to love uh Mother Teresa of Calcutta because she really hates Mother Teresa she she's believed all the Auntie Mother Teresa propaganda and there's a lot there's a lot of it we were talking about this earlier yeah yeah there's a lot of anti-uh Mother Teresa stuff which I don't I don't understand I think she's she's one of my favorite uh recent Saints because I do I do get a little bit nervous about recent Saints yeah but I'm comfortable I'm very comfortable with her as a saint and uh Saint brother Andre who's here in Montreal he died in the 20th century but a lot of the recent Saints even Padre Pio I have to be honest I'm a little bit like just a little bit scared to go full on with Padre Pio the Stigmata doesn't help because I'm nervous about the stigmata sure and uh the fact that he may have endorsed Garabandal apparitions and stuff like that which I'm skeptical of just just and the fact that he's so close to me in time like I'm just very I know the church well the church the church I believe the church and I believe he's a saint but there's just sort of like an emotional uh sort of reaction that I have where I'm a little bit scared even with Saint John Paul II I'm a little bit like I'm not fully I have his image here I'm not fully like letting myself go enthusiastic with him but uh that's so maybe there's a little bit of rat Trot in me where I like The Mists of time you know yeah sure you know it's funny you know what I think um I think the birth of red Treads is simply from it's mainly one thing it comes from inside of them they believe that they're more holy than the next person and I I really I think that's all it is really if you boil it down it's their image they think I'm I'm confessed and I'm prayed up and I'm your filthy scum and I'm more holy than you you know and I I want some rewards and notices for my works you know I swear I really believe that's what comes from their heart and and then uh a red tread is born yeah that's what I think probably yeah yeah definitely it does seem to be here and this kind of I'm obsessed with uh the concept of contemplation because it's just so it's just so cool like the idea of um contemplative prayer just really really catches my eye because I'm selfish um and then the more I dive into it um the more I see that there has to be this balance between order and then the ability to let go of order and it seems that radical traditionalists represent the order and then the falling away from order seems to be the Progressive Catholicism and it seems that like you have to stick to order and then allow yourself to fall away from it but you always have to come back to established order so then that way you're always reigning yourself into the middle which is like where the real content is where God is and so it's like like what David David your your concept of like I'm not I'm not traditional I'm not Progressive I'm wherever Jesus is in the center I'm with Jesus and I'm like yeah that's actually like true and you have these like like these borders that seem to like rain everything in and I think that's why the rosary is cool because you get this established order then you have like the content of the meditation and um I think like I don't know I'm prideful when it comes to the rosary because I'm like oh it's been two three but it's like but I think I have a suspicion that there are so many different windows for contemplation in the context of that prayer and so everybody thinks like the the main one to get into is like oh well you're gonna meditate on the mystery and the meditation of the mystery is the real part and the Hail Marys are just vocals there's so much but the more that I pray the prayer the more I'm like actually I don't think that's the case I wouldn't over stress the Hail Marys but I wouldn't over stress the meditative content either because everything eventually peels away and you get to wordlessness and you get to like you get to unknowing you get to the content where you're like I can't even Pro it's just Faith it's whatever faith is you're just like I don't know what this material is but I I know God is right here with me I don't know what he looks like I know that whatever Aiden thinks he's he looks like has to be scrapped I know all of it has to um be thrown to the ground eventually and I have to be willing like to not know but um yeah so you know uh just that rigid radical traditionalist side of things really annoys me because if you just if you just harp on structure day in day out day in day out you train your you just drain yourself so quickly and then if you do the whole radical uh the whole Progressive thing um it just Fizzles out because it it you just get rid of the actual content it like leaks away and you just have you know vapid nothingness so I don't know I don't know it's literally a juggling catch it and throw it and catch it and release Catch and Release catch and release but um I'm reading a book actually by Dan Burke and the uh of the Avila Institute uh Saint Teresa yeah is it the contemplative Rosary yeah I'm reading that now I bought it because I did the rosary with them online I did one so I think I did Joyful Mysteries with them or whatever and then I checked out but that was on the anniversary or on the whatever special date they had the Marion event so what do you so I've read that book and my one complaint about Dan Burke's reading on that is that he basically states that everything has to fit under a Carmelite umbrella and so it's like yeah this is good it's good to pray your Rosary but you need to have pure mental like pure teresian mental prayer for this to really benefit you you need to be able to do this and not put your Rosary before that what do you what do you think David because jpii basically states that it's a school of prayer and not um which to me sounds self-sufficient it sounds like to me like you know why can't that be your um Touchstone your go-to your um Bedrock of um um you know uh meditative contemplative prayer yeah for me it's like a love story and uh all the books on technique like I mean I could buy books about how to save my marriage how to love my wife and all this sort of thing as long as you realize that these tips and tricks and techniques and all that are completely secondary to the organic loving of this human being that's right there beside you right now right then you're on the right track but when you get attached to this school thought that school thought this technique and this Rule and whatever and you treat your wife like uh Pavlov's dog or whatever it's like you're on the wrong track period right so that that organic thing guys I gotta go speaking of it I'm gonna go love my wife so I'll see you guys yeah God bless you guys God bless you my friend we'll talk soon love you guys pray for me love you bye now we can talk trash about Cola just kidding kidding can you raise your camera just a bit so I can see more of your forehead there you go uh so yeah that's my quick and dirty answer to like the constraints of like well it has to be caramelite spirituality and it's funny because I I just got a book on Carmelite spirituality so can you see if I have any other lady in here anyway no and I love it yeah I think it's really good but it's all about building a scaffolding system that you eventually tear down anyway you're like do you know you know what I mean like like it's like first you consider you know you let you reflect on it then you develop affections and from your affections you um can ask for things you can petition and then um you make resolutions from that and it's like yeah that's really good to have that established order um but like so David I bought this book I don't know why I did not have this right so this is into a silent into the silent Land by Martin Laird and it's called the practice of contemplation so this guy is from um Villanova University near me um he's a an augustinian monk he talks a lot about the Jesus prayer but this is actually all in the vein of um uh uh centering prayer having a prayer word using your prayer word to just cultivate contemplation so he argues that like you can't ever you can't make contemplation happen which I believe um you could only like set the stage to receive contemplation from the Lord which makes sense and so the best way to do that is to have a prayer word and to be like to blah blah blah blah blah and compare that to you my boy Thomas Dubay about everything um who states that there is no method and that the only way to truly get close to the Lord in contemplative uh in a contemplative manner is to become holy which I'm like I believe this dude yeah I want to believe that this guy he doesn't directly contradict this however this dude's like hey you need to be holy yeah and um follow the gospel so this is uh teresian um this is Saint Teresa uh St John of the Cross and the gospel on prayer and so like this is some pretty heavy stuff but it's awesome um but yeah it seems to be what you're saying that it's like if you just turn to Jesus and you're like I love you and you make some time to say I love you every single day um that seems to be the best way to you know approach I'm trying to escape from the religiosity of planification where I've got my checklist and all this stuff and I always talk about this because it's true I talk about my checklist because I actually literally literally have a checklist every day of what I'm doing so I want to be liberated from that because that's nothing but a it's like it's like the law like it's like the the Old Testament law like the judaic law it's like all it does is show me what a loser I am that's all it does so in exchange I'd gladly exchange all my checklists and all my pelagianism and semipelagianism for a relationship with Jesus Christ that's right that's the goal right that's the goal to say you know to say no to that's the end that's the end step to say no to selfish pleasure and to say yes to Holiness so I like your second book much better because that's that is the way and you know it's easier probably easier to sell a million books with a million different techniques and here's how you can do it and build your scaffolding and this and that other thing and I'm not disparaging Saint Teresa of Avila or St John of the Cross or any of these people no but even she says she says mental prayers about loving much it's not about thinking okay okay so like okay yeah they would tell you the same thing it's just hilarious because we're humans and we like we're like well these are the things that we typically experience because we want to like because you want to have to know those things because when you pray you start to come up against things and then you think like so like dryness and prayer you and Nicola were talking about dryness in prayer right and so if you're not engaging in certain sinful activities you're partaking in the sacraments you're actually living a good and holy life that would be a considered a passive purification and so if you understand the concept of a passive purification you might not fall to um despair because you understand this is actually a normal piece of my of my walk it's just something that sucks and that I have to keep going through despite uh these circumstances yeah the reason I'm going through a dark emotionally dark three years is because I've said yes to Satan let the demons in I just indulge your pleasure okay so that's like I'm aware of the reality it's not like I'm going through some passive purification it's like I invited the demons in and now I'm suffering okay so that's just the way it is the same thing like with the Aged alcoholic who's like I wish I'd never indulged in alcohol and I thought it was fun and now I'm I've got this albatross around my neck you know so it's like just like Karma cause and effect and it's like you let the demons in and it's not cool it's just not cool so uh yeah so I'm aware of that and like the Holiness thing it's like you know my problem is it's the same thing with my physical health and my spiritual health it's the same thing I will push to the Limit like I will eat junk food until I'm starting to feel sick and then I'm like hey I should pump the brakes on the junk food need some healthy food and rest and this and that the other thing and then I feel better and when I feel better it's like hey I can indulge every lust for food that I have right so I just keep on that balancing Point like you know and then I just pull back just enough to be feel healthy enough to to indulge in my sin always it's always the same thing so it's the same thing with my spiritual life it's like well I said my prayers well you didn't pray well yeah but I said my prayers and like you know I went to I did my Sunday obligation yeah but you didn't go to you know know it didn't go to your way or do anything or whatever but just the constant rationalization like I'm just going to do the bare minimum and when I do the bare minimum hey I get qualified I'm a Catholic I'm in good standing with the church like that like the rat traps damn yeah rubber stamp like hey I'm in good standing right uh not so much you know because God sees the hurt and my heart is just lust for every selfish pleasure like that's just what it is right so I am conquered like asking for joy in those normal activities like saying hey God can you just give me joy in these normal activities yeah I'm constantly asking for I'm constantly asking for that I say you know I want to enjoy this is one of my favorite prayers is I want to enjoy everything everything goodbye and the Ugly whatever I want to enjoy everything it's very important to me that I enjoy everything but I have to enjoy everything in a way that pleases you that's the one caveat right like it's like that's the ticket that's the living the dream is like where I can enjoy everything and I'm pleasing God but in the meantime right in the meantime I'm gonna please myself because that's like that's just handy like hey I'm thirsty I take a drink I'm hungry I tell you whatever so it's like I'm gonna cater to myself while I fantasize about this dream where I can enjoy everything while pleasing God but in between this sinful reality and the fantasy of being a saint are some painful self-denials right like that's the reality and you just can't get from A to B without taking those steps period yeah it seems to be really really prevalent that that's the that's the case like uh I was St John of the Cross basically says like you can't have one threat holding you back if you if mystical contemplation is your end goal of really Experiencing God as he is is your goal um you can't like one little hang up is gonna is Gonna Keep you tied down to the ground and so like you think like okay so for me I'm really um I'm really into sugar like and I know that I'm gonna have to deal with sugar right right you know I mean I'm picking up a nine but nine thing well I know but I'm laughing because I have the same addiction it's so bad though like I literally feel it I wake up and I'm like you know so proud of myself because I'm like I'm not gonna have cream of my coffee today but I gotta eat this sweet thing along with my black coffee so that way I like enjoy this and it's like dude lame however St John lacrosse says um you can't do extra Penance in an area um that's not the sugar you need to go right for the sugar you cannot be attached to any one thing in this world so if you think you can double down on something else and be twice as good in one area to make up for your deficiency wrong no you need to go right for the thing that sucks the most I'm like no [Music] brownie points for being detached from all the things that I've never been attached to right right yeah like me too but me too man this is what like 100 credit for all that like double up on the credit for that and then just like conveniently ignore like that I'm completely addicted and attached to all these worldly things yup yeah that's I would love that but that's not gonna happen I'm like no no not going there bro so we're gonna we're gonna have to man up I've heard that before David I've heard that before and it's funny though because if you do uh man up in one area it actually makes it easier to uh scramble together some self-control in other areas so if you pick an area that's like really difficult to tackle if you say I'm gonna actually I'm gonna pin down my sweets and I'm going to I'm not going to eat sweets anymore um then presumably because you have resolved in that area that does spill out into other areas and make it easier for us to um then take that kind of initiative with other things because um that I mean that's how it was simply when I quit smoking cigarettes years and years ago that was what pushed me to lose weight then once I lost weight I'm like I didn't do anything I learned how to run from running I learned how to do hot yoga and if you've ever done Hot Yoga before David it's not easy really awful they heat the room up to like 115 degrees and then you do this hour and a half long exercise it's literally just rips you to pieces like once you start like building on things that you know but it's like taking that initiative because if you think like oh gee I'm really great I'm doing really good right now then your motivation drops because you're just like well I'm not smoking weed and I'm not cheating on my wife and I'm not drinking alcohol and it's like okay that's good and it's like but you're like for some reason the motivation then like drops down it's like so total complacent if I don't have sugar what else am I going to have and it's like actually that's a really good question and the answer is you have the Lord you know and it's like taste and see that the Lord is sweet or the Lord is good yeah yeah man um yeah we should do it it's the the New Year's resolutions are about to start in four weeks I might I'm looking into the [Music] um what is that awful thing Exodus um Exodus 90 or Exodus um that horrible thing I think it's 90 Exodus 90. uh for 90 days you um uh it's a Catholic program oh yeah I think I may have heard of it yeah eggs 90. yeah you do I and I don't think I would do the prayers associated with it because like I pray enough during the day I pray to a fault actually I like avoid things like the prayer um so I I would actually probably make myself do the things I don't want to do and do a little bit like less of the things I do want to do first with prayer but um but yeah dude you take lukewarm or cold showers um you only eat three Square meals a day I think on Wednesdays and Fridays you do the traditional catholic fast of the small meals um there's no snacking there's no sweets there's no alcohol um I think there's exercise involved I think like instituting some kind of exercise program I don't know if they still keep up with that or not anymore um and then it's supposed to be like a weekly like fraternal thing where you get together with like your brothers and your Parish that are doing it and you like like yeah share and you hold yourselves accountable oh no social media too like no um Twitter yeah so like no Netflix that type of thing oh okay oh that's good no TV and movies yeah what do you do then where do you put your hands like what do you like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so one of my big challenges is being diligent at work it's gonna kick us off the call here unfortunately I have to go see I have to go in my wife's gonna be home in two minutes oh two minutes okay good we'll wrap it up here but yeah I want to get on top of my laziness at work and my gluttony with sugar and salt and whatever's fat and gross I got hurt burn the other day from shoveling food in my face and my wife suffers from heartburn so I gotta take that as a little warning sign not to eat like a pig but wait David before you go yeah have you seen Bigfoot before the real one in the woods I mean in general no the fake one yeah the real one come on have you no I have not seen the real Bigfoot no are you no I but I've been just so interested in Cryptids lately I've just been like I've been listening to this podcast there's this guy um I accidentally found him and it turns out he's from York Pennsylvania it's hilarious but I found him when I was in South Carolina and um he like does a lot of uh a lot of interviews with people and they're like their paranormal experiences he actually interviews this priest quite often his name is Brother Richard he's from Ireland he's this um Franciscan monk and he talks a lot about like the Catholic View and the Irish view of um the other like the world like you know like the the spiritual dude it's awesome I'll uh send me a link I'll send you a link to it but um but then that just begged the question like wait David have you ever seen Bigfoot I'll keep your eyes open I'll keep my eyes open for bigfoot I'll uh I'll shoot yeah do well actually it seems to be the case though if you're looking for him you'll find him um and from what I understand it's not something that um that anybody else wants to to encounter it's pretty scary but oh really okay I'll avoid him yeah no there seems to be this this um there seems to be this uh spiritual reality at play with Bigfoot and it really confuses people because there's this physicality with it and um like there's a lot of Native American lore that comes into play with it and a lot of um shamanistic um elements that like come into play as well and uh um all right do you have Native American um that I did I thought that I did but I did two genetic tests and they both came back negative for Jews or for natives so that was disappointing you were hoping man I wish I was Jewish um you're a spiritual Jew as a Catholic ambulance period yeah nice nice and the other Jews the other Jews are called carnal Jews in the Bible um dirty dirty dirty Colonel Jews and we're the pure spiritual Jews is that how that works that's so bad I'm copying a link here for you and just hearing your my negative energy you're terrible um by the way I think it's did you did you listen to my Kanye rant a bit of it yeah yeah I did um uh and I I enjoyed it because I I'm I don't know everybody wants to take a massive dump on Kanye and I'm like the dude is clearly having a mental breakdown and because he's so famous he's just having it in front of everybody and everybody's like can you believe what he's saying and I'm like yes I can believe that mentally old person is saying really horrible things because he's mentally ill and uh the idea that like you know people are like oh mortified by it is so lame well what he's actually saying is not bad it's just the way he's saying it is uh it's just not well measured and well-timed I don't know enough about the content of what he's saying to to comment on it I just know I got through one part where he was comparing himself to a 15 year old rape victim like dude oh I didn't hear that okay yeah uh basically what I heard was um uh he's like well yeah you know if you have like a 15 year old girl and she's getting repeatedly raped by men and then as an adult she hates men you know that's basically right he's been saying like that's what I'm okay okay I'm like ah probably not the best um illustration yeah yeah yeah yeah but um you know yeah I don't know um it's minimizing uh something pretty traumatic because like yeah yeah I mean I don't think a 15 year old rape victim would talk about it on podcasts with a bunch of different commentators I think it would be a little bit more horrific than what he's talking about but yeah what's the basic what's the gist of what he's saying that the Jews screwed him and they tried to control him and all his Jewish lawyers and business people and all this sort of thing and they're part of some big cabal satanic cabal and whatever and uh you know so like I mean he's misguided for sure but he says he loves the Jews so like he's he's striving to be a Christian so he's he's striving to love his enemies and he's striving to love everybody and so you know he's misguided he's immature in his faith obviously and uh I wish him well and to the extent that he's Christian I mean I admire him but I've never been a fan I don't really get his Vibe and he just seems like a demo it but you know I love him and I hope that he comes out the other end with some Solid Faith and one of his lyrics is uh um Watcher watch your attitude um so I'm so gratitude so like yes I understand the dimwit part of it because uh my one of my best bros like thinks he's a genius and I do like I do like Kanye music it's it's I've never heard it I've never knowingly heard it listen to his last record I think it's called Jesus's king um it's not bad uh it's just whoops that was the end of that

CVS Live Guest - 2022-12-27 - Aidan and Rebekah

foreign here with Aiden and Rebecca how are you guys doing good how are you great I'm excited to talk to you both and I hope you both had a Merry Christmas YouTube Buddy what did you do for Christmas I stayed home with the wife and we uh uh what did we do uh oh we went to see a friend Christmas Day and uh we talked to another friend who moved out of town to a small country town and she invited us for um New Year's Eve there's a New Year's Eve party happening in a very small Border Town that borders on the U.S so we're thinking we might do that it's in a bowling alley so it's like a bowling alley party so we can bowl and eat snacks and stuff like that so that's by my standards that's a pretty happening and exciting uh Christmas and New Year it's exciting for my standards as well yeah that's cool man yeah very nice how about you Rebecca are you doing anything for New Year's oh I I don't really have plans except that I'm gonna do a talk on The Big Bang on New Year's Day uh so I think that'll be fun what is that oh on my Channel The Big Bang is that what you call it the Big Bang Yeah I mean I don't believe the Big Bang so I'm kind of like talking with someone about you know reasons that they believe the big bang and presenting evidence against the Big Bang ah cool uh I thought it was bread of life you changed the name no she's talking about the Big Bang Theory I think you're still going under the same name she's she's saying she's gonna do a talk on on the subject I see okay okay okay so you have to are you so do you believe in um Evolution or creationism or no yeah I don't believe in evolution I'm like David I'm I'm one of those crazy young Earth creationists I I believe whatever makes most people irritated so I'll just whatever whatever everybody's emphatically against I'll just say yeah I believe that I don't think that's right join us Aiden yeah Universe creation is I know but I'm more of a provocateur so I don't think you'd want me for your cause because there wouldn't be any compassion or love it would just be me sitting there and like poking at people I'm not but I'm not smart enough to be effective at it so I guess maybe I would be okay for your side my little brother would be better Karen is kieran's a creationist right David I think so yeah I think so yeah he's brilliant so he would be able to to to tell you why everybody else is wrong and why you two are right so I uh I was listening to Kent hovind he's one of my guests and he's a young Earth creationist he's pretty controversial for many reasons but Kent hoven's made a joke back in I don't know this is probably decades ago now in one of his talks he said uh I've got three kids one of each and that was edgy back in the day because like he was implying that there could be three genders instead of just the boy and the girl but today I looked it up their 74 uh genders so if you if you want to have one of each you're going to need to polygamy too to have one of each or you live 300 years yeah you know there's that David come on oh okay yeah the Methuselah project are you aware of this uh Rebecca that they're doing a try and extend human life as part of the transhumanist agenda did you know that not surprised I think you might have mentioned this in one of our talks I interviewed uh years ago I interviewed my one and only Mormon guest and he's a trans and open transhumanist and the Mormon religion is sort of an atheistic religion where you've just got a big man in the sky and he's currently the best it's anotheism which is we worship the best of all the gods and we are in competition with that God to surpass him so it's a form of atheism I think and uh the so-called gods are just material beings like like us that have ascended so there's a there's an overlap with the New Age movement where we have this ascendance and it's a sort of a gnostic thing too where we want to have more and more subtle matter to it to the point where it becomes a spiritual being and a spiritual being is still material but it's a more subtle form of of uh matter so uh a lot in common with the Gnostic New Age movement the Mormons and well they worship a lot with uh Harry Christian is a lot too there's a lot of crossover between Mormonism and the the Krishna Consciousness movement and I never understood why and I suppose that's probably probably a piece of it because there seems to be like a polytheistic element to Mormonism yeah which is um why we don't you know in Catholicism except somebody who's been baptized Mormon as being legitimately baptized but um I feel like a lot of Protestants have the view of Catholicism like it's like it's a cousin like a close cousin of Mormonism and it couldn't be further further from it yeah but no I don't feel that way at all um but you know with Mormonism it's kind of interesting because you know I I know the beliefs are not Christian Orthodoxy um but some of the best Christians I know are Mormons and what I mean is your Reflections very very wonderful people and then some are very very creepy um so we went to mean personality wise or like in the way I mean just in well all you know I can give you an example we went to the mall to share the gospel a few weeks ago and of course I live in Utah so it's you know very warm and heavy and so we one of the people that we talked to was you know a a pretty high leader in the Mormon church and he was really I mean just his whole presence was very like um off-putting um and you know he was just you know just saying a lot of appalling things um that of course we don't believe and then you know and there was just you know something about him that was totally off then you know again I've also met other leaders in the Mormon Church our church did a collaboration with the Mormon church to help uh the community and I met the you know the the main leader of the the stake in our um town and he was such a wonderful guy his wife was wonderful um you just really sensed true Christian love from them I did and so you know there I feel like there's it's kind of a situation with the wheat and the tares you know Jesus told the parable about the wheat and the tares and there are some people I think there's there's enough uh Bible reading in Mormonism that if you read and you read the teachings of Christ and you hold on to that there's enough truth there um to re lead you in the right direction and then there's enough like terrible teachings in the church that if you hold on to those I mean in the Mormon church if you're holding on to those and you're trusting in those then it's really a lot to lead you in a very dark path so which is scary that's like uh because it's always like a you know when you have something that feels very very true but then there's like a percent of falsehood in it and then that like little drop is enough to corrupt and to ruin everything and to lead you lead you away and I feel like every time I've fallen for a new age trap that's kind of kind of what it is and also on it's also on the fault of the church too for um uh developing like cliches and um kind of like a false icon of what the church is and what what Christianity is and it makes it kind of look unappealing and you know when you sometimes when you think of Catholicism you think of like the old pictures and the Baltimore catechism with like the dude with the shaved face and like the suit likes you know hands folded hands clasped very boring very like um rote and static imagery and um the experience of God is much more Transcendent and beautiful and probably something closer to how um you know people Express themselves in Eastern religions you know there's something appealing about the colors and about the um the freedom that's expressed there and of course it's deception it's lies but I think that if Christianity kind of had some of those um some of those elements expressed people would be more drawn people would be more drawn to it but unfortunately um I think religious imagery has gotten in the way of a lot of that I could be wrong but um I mean it happens it happens in all in all major religions too if you if you do any deep dive into Hinduism you get the same um unappealing glossy images that just repeat over and over and over again and those two become boring and they become Static and stale and um uh look at my yoga old yoga teacher's house you know you'd have the Gita and all these pictures around and um they all started to look the same and they all started to look copy and paste and um after a while you just kind of grew disillusioned because they um you know were just there depicting a reality or representing a reality but they couldn't actually be the direct experience of it so so it sounds like you're saying you like the messiness of God's reality and sort of the chaos like even in that we read about in the certainly in the Old Testament but even in the New Testament there's a there's a messiness a confrontation with reality as it is and uh yeah things don't fit into nice neat categories where you've got your shiny brochure with the Norman Rockwell paintings illustrating what the church is all about so yeah you want authenticity and to confront the messy reality that's I'm 100 on board if that's what you're that's right yeah yeah well David so like the the last conversation YouTube had um you had your your book of of um Catholic doctrines look at that there you go Dogma and um and for me I see the word dogma and I see a book and I see like block lettering I'm like like boring and like and then and then you jump into the Dogma too and there's this like static there's this rigidity rigidity to it right but like it's like an opening you know there's this like you know very hard lines but then you fall through the lines you go through the lines you jump into whatever that is and then there's this vast space within within the Dogma so like the Dogma just points to a reality but the reality exists of itself and then you have the opportunity to experience it um by like learning whatever the boundaries are but then coming to a place of Unknowing and experiential knowing and then you're like oh you know and that's kind of what I always want from God because uh I'm selfish and I want to uh um I want the lights and the goodies you know I want all the cookies yeah um well if you think that you've understood a Dogma then you've completely missed the point of the dog because each Dogma is a mystery and each Dogma is an eternal truth of God and will never comprehend God and will never comprehend any of the Mysteries of the faith so uh not to bash the rat rats and the so-called Conservative Catholics but they love making a character of the dogmas and making a character of the history of the church making a character even of the Saints and of the popes that preceded uh you know uh highest the the ninth or however back they want to go they just make a cardboard cutout caricature that's nice and neat and clean and they want to remove the mystery and uh I prefer the messy reality and confronting in the dogmas the mystery because it's Transcendent it's always going to go beyond our intellect and it's going to be an Act of Faith and of putting our faith in Christ that well I don't quite completely understand how this could be the case or it seems like there's an apparent contradiction but I will respect the general uh you know the general warning which the dog must present which is like don't go beyond this point and uh you know stay stay in bounds and then you can play when you stay in bounds you can play freely like a little child you can have that freedom in Christ and you can play and when the other kids are saying hey you've gone too far in that direction over there it doesn't mean that the child understands the Dogma that is that signpost like you're going too far it just means that the child loves God and is striving to obey God so that's the mentality that I take with the dogmas we don't need to understand them we just need to say hey you're getting warmer warmer hot okay you're in danger oh you're over the cliff you're you're Heretics cosmetic or God forbid apostate like that's that's the way it goes and we look at the history books we can look at people that went over that edge and left the faith and it's like well we warned you we didn't understand the dogmas but we warned you that you were going against the darkness apparently you know what do you say Rebecca well I mean look you guys have a a it it's beyond what I think is necessary but you already know that I mean um so for me um faith is much simpler and you know so yeah I don't know bounce though to your plate to your plate Zone oh no of course there are I mean Orthodox Christianity is you know but I think when we're talking about Orthodox Christianity we're talking about things that have been expressed numerous times in the Bible you know not um and that are like the clear teachings I'd say the Nicene Creed is a you know Fair um assessment of this the essential teachings of the church yeah and so and that Creed talks about a belief in the church right yep well I'll also say um Simplicity seems to be highly stressed and anything you read about prayer um uh dropping as much as you possibly can and approaching everything with childlike Simplicity seems to be the best and it also seems to be the most peaceful way to go about it too and uh so I respect David's um seeking out of dogma and I respect your approach of Simplicity because I'm somewhere in between because I'm not smart enough to tackle the way that David is and I'm not um I'm too compulsive and too like uh rigid to fully Embrace Simplicity but I've been praying a lot for Holy Simplicity with everything because it's um something that I really desire and uh something that God is you know there's certain things that it's just like it's a given you know if you ask for it you'll get it so I believe that I'll arrive there with holy Simplicity and humility and um poverty and spirit and so as long as I have those things I don't really care so much about getting it wrong you know as long as um uh I'm somewhere in the truth it doesn't really it doesn't really matter to me too much but David I like what you do though with your jumping into and sitting you know among the dogmas because um it's this very specific um Adventure where you're like picking something you know letting it marinate sitting inside of it being willing to suspend whatever it is that you initially want to believe and then um like almost developing like an elasticity with yourself we are not resisting something that might be barred and because it's a lot like exercise it seems it seems a lot like what yoga was you know with yoga you'd be trying to force your body to do something that it doesn't normally want to do and it could be really painful but then the more that you do it the more you develop a relationship with something uncomfortable the better your body is to then taking that adaptability and applying it to other things so um you know anytime you crack open your Bible you know that that becomes easier and easier every time you confront another Dogma so it's cool man I just want to say I just want to say to both of you because I don't think either of you appreciates this nuanced aspect of my relationship with the dogmas and with I don't appreciate it at all but uh it's like the you know when I was in I was very awkward obviously as a child and in uh Public School we'd have a dance at the end of the year and I would be at the perimeter like on the benches at the side of the gymnasium and just clinging to my bench clinging to the wall that's how I am with my walk with Christ I'm afraid to go dance in the middle of the ballroom with with Jesus and I want to just cling to those pillars of of truth that are at the side of the gymnasium those these dogmas and it's a weakness it's a cowardice on my part like I just should go play but I'd rather cling to the dogmas so it's just an insecurity I have and I'm well aware of that so I don't want anyone romanticizing it that oh David's intellectual he likes the dog was in the rigid approach no it's not that it's just like I should be playing in the center and living in the freedom that is Christ but I'm just scared and I'm just clinging to the dogmas I'm scared for many reasons I don't want to be fooled and I'm uh you know I also don't want to get hurt playing uh you know in the or even just get hurt dancing like it's just and and to feel like an insecure just loser like I'm not worthy to for any girl to come up and ask me to dance and plus it's the guy it's the guy the guy is supposed to ask it's very effeminate because I I'm the guy I should approach the girl like the cute girl I can look on the Dance Floor I know which girls are cute by my by my tastes so it's a lack of Courage it's a lack of Manliness but at the same time uh we're all on a journey and you know I'll get there I have to get there eventually I have to get into that Freedom that place of freedom and that that true walk of faith rather than being in my head and having this overly intellectual safety zone where I'm just clinging to the wall so I'd like to hear Rebecca's reaction to that well you know uh David I do think there is a greater place of freedom for you um and but it this is like one of those things I Want To Tread carefully because I never want to hurt anybody's Faith um and you said if one of the dogmas could be shown to be wrong then you know I would like leave the faith completely and stuff like that so I don't want to challenge the dogmas because I don't I I don't want to take the risk of you know hurting your faith at all I'll do it I'll damage his face really no no no I would I would welcome it you know I I don't want to believe a false religion and if Catholicism is false I don't want any part of it but I also if Catholicism is false then all of Christianity is false and good luck convincing me otherwise with that one why does it have to be all of Christianity's false if Catholicism is false and why does Catholicism have to be like what I mean is like for me Catholicism is not false right it's I don't find because it's just got some carbuncles attached to it exactly so like why does it have to be so extreme or does it have to be so expensive it's about Authority okay I'll let Aiden answer for me no no because I don't believe that way David I because I really don't I instinctively I'm very simple I've ever since I was a little boy I knew God was was real oh yeah you can't shake my faith in God because my faith in God is based on a philosophical certainty that God exists so I'm going to be a lot yes no matter what but my faith is in Christ and in his church and in right all that stuff so but can you have faith would you have faith in Jesus Christ without the attachment of an established body of the church because I would I would still you wouldn't oh I would one hundo P because the all the Bible verses that that we as Catholics use to um to defend the papacy which I believe in um there's like tons of Wiggle rooms with everything and so you can say you can make tons of you know arguments against it I don't think that they're all valid I don't think they're all great but I do think that there's a ton of gray area and uh so if like God came down was like dude churches and his as black and white as what you're what you're thinking is I'd be like okay I would I'd be fine I'd be fine with that I wouldn't have to have the church to have to have the the whole thing however I will say I do believe more so in the authority of the Bible because of the church and and the way that the Bible reads too because every time I've read the New Testament I there's this aspect to it that doesn't feel comprehensive it feels like like here's a bunch of stuff especially when Paul writes like blah blah blah point point point point point point fill you in later when I get there y'all Deuces that's kind of how I feel that Paul was and so it was like oh obviously there has to be an authoritative Church backing that because um these letters don't seem to be all-encompassing it seems to be here's a bunch of points I want to cover these are really important but all you know um I'll hit you back later yeah and so yeah but again my world wouldn't be rocked either way I'd be let's just say let's just say for the sake of argument that I became convinced that the Catholic church was false and not the true church then my immediate reaction would not be I'm out of here my immediate reaction would be I you know I would be assuming that I'm on my way out but I would first on my way out on my way out of Christianity I would ask people like Rebecca or people that were Christian that were not Catholic I would ask them okay so the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth where is the church where is the church where is the church I want to know where the church is if it's not the Catholic church and every time I argue online and I had a big argument on Twitter recently with a bunch of Protestants uh and I just asked them we were talking about the Perpetual virginity Mary and I'm like well what does the church teach and they're like well the Catholic church is not the church I said I know I know that you believe that the Catholic church is not the church so what I'm asking you is what does the church teach well the Catholic church is not church I know that right I know that the Catholic church is not the church according to you but you do believe that Christ came to Earth and built a church and that the church is the pillar and foundation of the church so you do believe in the church that Christ built and you do believe it's not the Catholic church but where is the Catholic Church where is the church The Universal Church that Christ built that's what I would ask on my way out and in my experience in uh you know since 2009 of interviewing people on my podcast Protestants asking them where the church is no one has told me they've just said this this nebulous uh cluster of individuals who are saved or or whatever and they don't have a list of of established doctrines they don't develop the doctrine they don't use reason to see the connected truths the truths that are logically necessarily connected to the established essential saving truths that are revealed explicitly in scripture they don't have a website they did they don't have anything right they don't they can't point me to the church all they say is it's not the Catholic church I love that they don't have a website man yeah right get a website because you have to propagate these teachings you have to propagate these teachings you have to make it make it available what is the church if the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth it's 2022. make a website and just list the essential saving truths so that we can have because that's the role of the church the role of the church is to guard and protect the essential saving truths and to develop our understanding of those truths and to find and discover organically connected truths that's what that's the role of the church like that's 100 obvious to me I don't know how you two see the church but that's how I see the role of the church it's the holy spirit that indwells the church and it's guiding us and it's protecting us that's how I see it I'll concur I just I'm just not as fiercely attached to the concept as you because I'm also always wrong or most of the time I'm wrong and so I'm okay with being Prime I'm okay I'm okay you know what I mean I know you are I'm okay with being wrong like if but all I'm saying is that there's a conspicuous silence on the question of where the church is if it's not the Catholic church that's fine just show me where it is period well go ahead Rebecca I'm sorry well David I think it's um you know how when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus and you know he said look the spirit you know is like the wind you can't always see where it's going you know where it came from but you see the effects and the church is I like the term you used the mystical Body of Christ now so you think I'm part of the mystical Body of Christ but not the official church but see to me those who are part of the body of Christ those who are in Christ are the church that is the church now what's interesting is that you think that the dogmas still we can't explain them all right Okay so why do we even have to get to that level can't we with what with what we have with the scripture with um the what the Holy Spirit has spoken to us um why can't that be enough to guide the church the Holy Spirit indwelling the Believers is guiding the church and we have the scripture that has been passed down to us that's our guide what does that say about the Perpetual virginity of Mary well I don't see much okay so I I wouldn't but I wouldn't make a comment on that right so I I mean they're just as in the Catholic Church there's people with differing ways of understanding the dogmas and different interpretations of certain things well that there's room for that um you know in in what I see as the bounds of the church as well so I don't really see how having all these established dogmas is actually um adding to the guidance do you know what I mean like in a necessary way can I talk to that for a second um I think that it serves as a protective mechanism for the deity of Jesus and so like whenever something is established About Mary it was typically done in response to an attack on the divinity of Jesus specifically so like um like the ever virginity of Mary which seems like the Bible seems to contradict that by talking about the brothers of Jesus which um other books of the Bible like if you go through the different um gospels um those those are those children are accounted for as Mary the life of who is it David Mary the wife of uh clocus yeah um but like uh basically those things were built up that is an adorable Camp um what his or what's his or her name Mr Nice Kitty oh he needs a kiss on the head cute um yeah they just existed to basically like shut down any argument against Jesus being um Jesus being God and so um like like Mary's theotokos like Mother of God um you know I forget what the heresy was that that came about that was trying to rob Jesus of his being both fully God and fully man um but by establishing that Jesus or that Mary gave birth to God um and not to um well and David how did the argument go with uh with Mary is um Mother of God Mary is the mother of Jesus and Jesus he's a Divine person he's a God man he's fully godfully man and mother is not uh Mary is not the mother of his divine nature right here is the mother she is the mother of the whole person person right Mary is the mother of the whole person but I want to say something here that's very very important for my opposition in the Catholic church and why I don't believe that any other definition of the church will ever entice me other than the Catholic church that we see today in Vatican City in Rome and that is sexual morality okay there is such a thing as the natural law is real and I am I will never leave monotheism I may leave Christianity but I'll never leave monotheism and I will always have the natural law I will always have the knowledge of what's right and wrong specifically in the family intimacy sex marriage uh it's it's just a slam dunk there's nobody that can come close to the Catholic church when it comes to sexual morality period so it ain't gonna happen I'm never going to leave the Catholic Church and on that note there are movements within the Catholic Church of liberals who want to change the teachings on sexual morality it's happening all the time it's always been happening and my good friend asked me like what are you going to do if the pope goes along with the German Bishops and starts celebrating a gay so-called marriage and these sorts of things and I just responded that there are splits taking place schism's taking place all throughout the history of the church and cooler heads always Prevail even with arianism which dominated in the 4th Century or whenever it was cooler heads prevailed Saint athanasius led the charge and uh you know I will God willing I will always be in touch with natural law to the extent where I'll always follow the remnant the small thread of the real true church that Christ built and the natural law is key to that so I think I want to emphasize that part of my uh justification for staying in the church too what do you make of the advantage of scripture and this does have this is connected to this okay what you just mentioned but what do you make of Jesus when um he's responding to the Pharisees and he says don't you realize that David and his companions went into the house of God and they took the bread that was only lawful for the priests to eat and Jesus actually affirmed that action of David even though it was um against the law yeah so if some radtrad Conservative Catholics started lynching homosexuals I'd be there saying hey the law kills and the spirit gives life you uh you've missed the point of Christianity right this is your brother this is your brother your wayward brother this that's promoting homosexuality and it's an unrepentant homosexual or whatever the case may be I would just say this is your brother in Christ and uh you've missed the point of Christianity buddy you're living by the letter of the law not by the spirit of the law well and actually we'd also be we'd be morally obligated to physically interview intervene and and stop that action from occurring it's called bigotry it's called bigotry when you invoke God by God this by God that that's where that by God by God bigot that's where the word bigot comes from it's a it's a religious hypocrisy it's pharisaic it's pharisaical it's just that's the root of bigotry and it's mainly the right wing that is guilty I would say of that the left wing just wants to indulge and go the other way and say well look I God loves me God's good I can indulge in whatever pleasure I want without consequence they're going too too far the other way I find that less culpable than the right wing who are pharisaical so I'm on your side Rebecca I know you've leaned slightly left so I'm I'm more on your side than on the right track side mm-hmm Rebecca talk to us about prayer I really love prayer interests me and I know that you're a woman of prayer and um you have some cool experiences so you should share them because it's getting heavy with dogma and what the church is but prayer is dope and I want to hear I want to hear about it yeah well look guys prayer I I would actually say prayer is one of my bigger struggles in faith um so I I don't don't think of me as like this devout woman sitting around in like you know down on my knees and doing the sign of the cross I mean like I I have friends that are like that and I love that and I want to be like that right my husband has like a prayer list of like 200 people that he phrase for every day and I'm like I want to be like that but um it but really for me I mean I do have time where I I sit and and I um connect with God um and and you know I do of course pray for people that ask me to pray for them and and you know and there are people who naturally come to mind that I pray for I would say though like prayer is like um so I don't know if I'm qualified to like tell people about like how to be you know good prayer I think he was impressed by the Deliverance Prayer you did over me uh last night I did really like that I think I think he wants you to do that for him right now that was not a roundabout way of saying that but yeah I would I'll always take prayer I'm just I'm just fascinated by the subject of prayer and um uh I don't know I know that you're a prayerful person and I in my experience with prayer um I don't think people that engage in prayer ever think that they're good at prayer I think that it's it's a struggle for every human being who picks that cross up and um uh I always think of stranger things um have you watched stranger things uh no neither of you have so this is going to be lost on you but um there the main character is this girl and she's endowed with these telekinetic powers and she can go on to this different plane of of living and she disappears at the end of the first season and her friend is trying to um get in contact with her and the way that he would always do this is through his radio and he would set His Radio to static and he would sit there and try to tune in to her and like try to find her and he knew that it was helpless but he would still sit there in his basement and he would just dial out and try to try to talk to her and try to get get her attention and that's how I feel that human beings are with their prayers no matter what their prayer um is that they go to whether it's repetitive whether it's contemplative silence whether it's you know Rebecca the way that you engage in prayer I feel like everybody eventually gets to that point where they're sitting there kind of listening to static and trying to um see if you know they can find God yeah I just want to say one thing before you talk Rebecca which is that I've been struggling this year uh 2022 it's been a rough year I think coming out of it now like I was telling Aiden before my life and uh I learned some valuable lessons from Dancing With the Devil and saying yes to Temptation stuff like that and particularly in the realm of prayer life like there's sort of like Matthew Murdoch used to say that his prayers were bouncing off the ceiling they he couldn't break through the ceiling and I can now relate to that I understand even though you know I haven't sort of Fallen maybe to the extent that my friend Matthew Murdock has been struggling uh past couple of years with some heavy stuff and he's going to come back on the show hopefully you'll get to see him Rebecca but um I've interviewed him many times sweet sweet guy um but he reached out to me today he's coming back he's in therapy but um this idea of the prayer is bouncing off the ceiling I sort of had a palpable experience of that to some small degree this year and then to go to confession and then to have that once again that sort of natural organic relationship not only with God but with creation is uh it's a holistic thing it's not it's not okay we have the cross the vertical and the horizontal it's true but it's one cross it's one reality the natural and the Supernatural is one reality that's the sort of conclusion that I've come to and that the naturalness of being alive being healthy eating well making good choices about sleep or whatever these are all Godly things and if you read the Eastern desert fathers on the discipline of our passions and lusts for food or sex or water or whatever it might be um you come to see the natural and the supernatural it's one thing this this experience of the walk with God and striving to be Christian it's one organic thing and the prayer life is more natural than we might think it is we might be fantasizing it's this multi-dimensional sci-fi special effects but I think it's more today it is so that don't take away my what I'm saying is that instead of instead instead of either or I want the both and because the the Saints I think the saints were in touch with both dimensions the vertical and the horizontal Dimension right and they were you know appreciating this world and the naturalness of this created World while simultaneously being in touch with the spirit world and to the to the extent where there were Saints who could actually see their garden guardian angel and they could actually see other people's angels and they could see just Angels generally and you could argue that's some sort of Mental Illness but I believe I firmly believe I choose to believe that these were holy men of God who were just given that Grace you know well what's the saying David Grace Builds on nature and so of course it would start at a very very natural spot that makes that makes all the sense in the world yeah and the way the way I pray is unnatural because I'm like oh my God now I'm in prayer mode I've got to what am I going to do I gotta do this I gotta do that I gotta say these words I'm not even listening I'm thinking about praying I'm not I'm praying but I'm not paying attention and it's just a total it's totally unnatural and what I challenge one of your things then about prayers bouncing off the ceiling yeah what if what if it was just your perception and not the actual reality like what if those prayers were all being heard it was the best prayers ever they were the best yeah because they felt so awful because you felt no consolation yeah because you felt dryness like what if those were like yeah it could be really uplifting you and you were just like perceiving them as so I should send some more so get back into that statement I'm just kidding well where's Santa bounds Grace abounds all the more I think I read that somewhere David didn't you read that anywhere yeah but he also says should we therefore sin God forbid well I'm not saying sin for the sake of prayer I'm just saying like I don't know because we get we get really hard on ourselves like like and I know I tend to do this so I have to battle scrupulosity Rebecca like all the time you know and so I choose to like go easy on myself and I'm like it's too it's just too heady so I'm like oh I did this therefore this doesn't count it's harsh [ __ ] there's just no other way to put it it's just total garbage um and uh sorry David it really it just really is I mean I agree I agree like what I know that like like theologians like to say like you know if you totally disconnect yourself from God then your prayer is ineffective do you know why that's wrong because the the harshest sinner when he turns in her pants and comes to God is usually like in the muck the migrant the worst of the worst and if that were the case then those people wouldn't be able to turn around face God and pray I mean and that's how they're lifted up out of that so and I want to add to that too because it actually diminishes the power like it it it I'm not it I can't actually diminish the power but what I mean is it diminishes our view of the power of Jesus Christ and his blood in making us holy and clean before God and so it you know sometimes I find myself sitting down and thinking okay you know now I'm gonna pray because now I've I've been like good today you know what I mean so like God is going to hear me and then I I have to correct myself and say no that is wrong I can pray I can face God today because of the blood of Jesus I have been made holy I have been cleansed I am um I am reconciled to God and I'm United to him and because of what Christ did so um that mode that we get into I like your word the scrupulosity or whatever where it's like you're you're like kind of like accounting for yourself is is it's really just a lack of seeing the power of Jesus Christ and what he did 10 minute warning for the call okay oh man lame no but I I I'm convinced there's more fluidity in our faith than we really think there is there's this beautiful um there's this beautiful reality that um can't be expressed and can't and can but can definitely be accessed and um uh I think that we get caught up again in images in like what everything is supposed to look like and like um or even just pictures of the Saints you know we see these Saints we see them in like robes we always see them in like their religious attire and we think like is that what heaven is and it's like who knows who knows but I will say um one of the things that really brought me into Catholicism is the existence of the Saints and so Rebecca your friend I want to read read this to you so I've been reading about um Saint Francis and um he's just so awesome uh just so cool and uh he has there's like a collection of stories um called the little flowers so Catholic so Italian Catholic it's not even funny um but when I read this I thought of your friend Mary and uh this is um Saint Francis and brother maccio so they came to a church which Francis said damasio let's go inside and hear mass and pray but when they went inside they saw the priest was not there so Francis went behind the altar while there he received a vision from God that set his soul on fire it was as if love Flames were coming out of his eyes and mouth Francis approached Macio in the state and cried out brother give yourself to me he said it three times and by the third time nasio ran to Francis and hugged him then Francis was saying ah in the power of the spirit and with his holy breath he lifted Matthew up into the air massio was stunned he later told the companions that it was the most consoled and loved he ever felt in his life and I was like oh that sounds like Mary that sounds like the woman who hugs people and people feel like they're being consoled by God himself and yes um yeah but I wanted to share that with you because um you know uh I think that it's so cool that when you do one of the the cool entry points in the Catholicism is the body of uh of Christ um and the Saints and um you Rebecca know so many living Modern Day Saints that you go to church with but then also there's this invisible body that's backing us up and um in Orthodoxy and Catholicism you have this log of all of these you know holy people that have gone before us that we have direct access to and companionship with in this very moment and to me that's a very that's just such an exciting concept and um in Protestant Christianity it seems to be lacking in something there's a liveliness that that could be present there but isn't there and just wanted to see what you what you think about that yeah I have to say this is one of the concepts that I'm not sure about okay so because because of course I believe in the Saints I I'm sure I would accept all the saints that the Catholic Church accepts as Saints and in fact I'm sure I'm looking at two things that Mother Teresa oh no I love Mother Teresa no it's just being one of the naysayers I actually love her too okay she gets bashed a lot by uh she does yeah that's the joke I'm gonna make a new link and I'm both happy to continue yeah definitely okay I'll be right back I'm gonna send it by email check your email now okay okay love you both talk to you soon foreign ER meanwhile I could play this music by Aiden foreign [Music] 's music uh in the intermission while I was waiting for you to join Hayden should be joining us here shortly here he is Bing Bang Boom and I'll just minimize myself hey Aiden can you hear us yep nice all right we were just talking about the Saints uh Rebecca what was the last thing you were saying well I was just saying look guys I'm I'm not sure about this um and that's because there's so many warnings about Consulting with the dead and things in scripture so right I'm not sure I I really like I'm not against this like if somebody tells me that they you know you know they're praying to Saint so and so to help them with something I'm not going to correct them um I I'm like open to it but it would probably God would have to tell me himself that right I should be connecting with the Saints who have gone before no I respect that I totally I totally get that um because there's a lot of there's so much so many warnings in the Old Testament about um Witchcraft and sorcery and don't consult with Wizards and um yeah I understand that I guess the whole concept just kind of balances on the New Testament scriptures talking about being alive in Christ and God's not a god of the Dead He's a god of the living and so when you really explore that it's like oh they're all just alive and animated in Jesus and so if I have direct access to Jesus I'm going to always have indirect access to all of those who are dead in him anyway and so then it's just a matter of okay well this person fascinates me they have a direct unique connection to God because they are created in the image of God but also uniquely themselves and so um that's always just where I came out with Saints where um you know David's just another reflection of God in just his own David Canadian um white trash way you know I want to say I want to say something here uh you know when I pray to the Saints I don't always do this but I sometimes do this especially when I go see Saint brother Andre who has a tomb here in Montreal uh he did many many many many miracles allegedly we're not obliged to believe it but the church just made him a saint and I I think it'd be foolish not to believe um when I pray in front of his tomb I put my head make the sign of the cross put my hands on his tomb his body is in there his headless bodies in there and he has his heart has been removed so his heart he's on display in a jar uh oh his head yes I think his head is still attached I'm not sure about that one it might be in New York state David the whole um head in the jar thing if you're trying to convince people of Catholicism like the whole it's like okay yeah we have his heart okay yeah so maybe not the best sales pitcher but what I wanted to say what I wanted to say to show my sympathy to the non-catholic Christian perspective is that when I pray to Saint brother Andre what I say is you are nothing I only love you because you love God so perfectly by the grace of God it's by the grace of God that you love God so perfectly you are nothing and I only love you because by the grace of God you loved God perfectly and then I start gushing toward him okay so that's the that's the that's the product because I was born and raised Protestant I have the same fears you have I also do not want to worship an idol so when I kneel in front of a statue at church whatever Saint it is usually it's uh Saint Mary I will say Saint Mary you are nothing I only love you because by the grace of God you have all these merits in Christ period period you are nothing Saint Mary you are nothing and you are the highest Saint why because you knew more than any other Saint you knew your worthlessness your valuelessness without Christ you're nothing and you knew it and that's why I love you I love you because by the grace of God you know you're nothing and you love perfectly by the grace of God you love God by the grace of God so I think you need to understand the Catholic perspective on prayer to the Saints it's a very very humbling thing not only for me it's humbling for the saint I'm reminding the saint not that he needs reminding he or she needs a reminding but it's just an exercise that I go through to let God know to let God know that I have things in the proper order in the proper perspective there's an infinite Chasm between Christ and his mother there's an infinite Chasm but there's another infinite Chasm between Mary and the next highest saint and then there's an infinite cosm between me and the lowest Saint in heaven so in that wild Spectrum I fit in somehow and it's only by the grace of God and it's all about humility and reality that's that's reality so I'm not insulting the Saints I'm not insulting myself I'm not beating myself up I'm certainly not beating up the Blessed Virgin Mary when I remind her that she's nothing but I think non-catholic Christians need to understand that we go we go through this right Aiden yes uh I yeah and I that's why I usually I never use the phrase anymore pray to Saints I say I ask for the prayers of the Saints there's a there's a definite um there's a difference yeah right but I mean also like we in Christianity we use it in direct like the way we use the word is we're talking to God only like that's the way we use the word colloquially well and and like if you look at old books and like old Catholic Books too like the we'll use the word worship you know like oh we we worship you mother and it's like annoys me so much because I'm like all those books need to no David should stop it no because it's just like because then because then you're fighting against like all these misconceptions see it says Hear worship and it's just like no it's wrong it's just somebody's stupid I didn't know I'm more like Pope Francis I love the ambiguity I love being interpret it I mean I guess I'm trying to learn to love it but then I'm also like you know I don't know when you're when you're talking to other people about it see the problem is Rebecca when you have like religion mixed with a culture you're gonna have get this watered-down teaching that occurs and then all of these these errors that occur alongside of them and then are just born into it like folk Catholicism is born and it's beautiful in one sense because it's nice to know that something is so big that it like hits a large group of people but then it's also really depressing because you get then the people that are like they know more about the Virgin Mary's apparitions at Fatima than they do about what's the Bible we don't read that we're Catholics you know that kind of that kind of attitude and it's like it's like that's not it is that's not it at all and um and so I find myself on the side of being irritated um by the lack of um I don't know I guess it's just the last decision yeah precision and also Clarity also the fact that like it's so easy to become lukewarm and to think you really like nailing it like I just I want to confession and I got my I got my my communion way for this week we're good to go said my Hail Mary and my our father and all right I'm in with God and it's like that's not it at all that's not even like close to it I mean you have to have those structures in place um though you have to be able to like um you know have those realities present to like benefit everybody but it just you know sucks in the meantime it's well I don't know I like the borders but I don't like that everybody then just goes to the lowest common denominator as a result I I do agree with I do agree with you and I just want to emphasize for the sake of uh Rebecca that I do agree with you but these are essential in preparation for the the bottle because it's it's a spiritual battle and so the sacraments prayer in the sacraments give me the health the Vigor the energy the clarity to fight the battle to get in The Fray and to fight the battle the spiritual battle that's taking place here in this in this world so uh although I could agree with you you know about the how superficial it is to have your checklist Catholicism and you go to get your sacraments and do your prayers yes yes but I can also tell you from this year with in my struggle in my spiritual spiritual battle inside myself with my own concupiscence that prayer in the prayer bless you prayer in the sacraments are absolutely essential and absolutely palpably real in terms of enabling me to fight the real fight that needs to be fought it's absolutely incredible and I would be I could tell you right now I would be lost without prayer in the sacraments and it's not that I'm good at prayer it's not that I'm worthy in the sacraments or anything like that I mean I'm I'm I have to receive in a worthy manner yes but it's not like I'm good at it um but uh it's all about the Battle it's all about being battle ready that's what it's all about and I think that's what you're saying I think that you're saying we need to be alive we need to be alive in the faith to be active in the faith so I think we agree and it happens everywhere it happens in every Church it happens in every faction I mean you have the people that are like John 3 16. you know we're good go you know do XYZ and I'm going to heaven anyway because Jesus is my Lord and then which is it's the same thing you know um yeah I I I I actually agree with you David I think it is about being battle ready of course you know you would say maybe that I'm not doing the sacraments because I'm not doing them at the Catholic church but I do believe that you know this is what the you know the the spiritual disciplines and and things that we do are not a salvific for us they're not you know they don't they don't you know increase our acceptance with God but they do help us in this battle because we are in a battle and so um you know we we do when we putting on the full armor of God right we are we're um you know keeping that helmet of salvation on you know the breastplate of righteousness so what when we're walking out in Good Works we're not achieving anything between us and God because the reconciliation is already there we've already been United to Christ I'm already seated in the Heavenly Realms with Christ I'm I'm I'm there laughing with Father Son and Holy Spirit that is where I actually am in the spirit and that doesn't change if I oop okay I sin today oh I failed it only roams anymore I've got to go to confession and get back up there no I have been placed in the Heavenly Realms with Christ that's where I am I'm always with him but the question is now how am I gonna walk that out in this world and I think you're right that what is what prepares us for the battle is staying in prayer and and you know confessing our sins and um you know taking communion and these types of things these um these do Keep Us Alive in the battle I want to make an analogy that I think will uh solidify that we're on the same team here we're on the same we're on the same page which is my work I'm notoriously lazy I hate working a nine-to-five job I hate it hate it hate it hate it it's like slavery I'm just looking at the clog I just hate it okay once in a while I'll have a task that is Meaningful and I'm creative and I can exercise my freedom at work and I feel good and you know everyone thinks I'm a genius at work and everything else but most of the time it's just drudgery and I just hate it okay so the battle there is uh very similar because my boss loves me uh my supervisor loves me he literally considers me his brother we've known each other like since 1989 uh but so a year before I was born I'm on the team okay I belong to the company I'm on the team they love and respect me I love and respect them but I'm a lazy SOB okay I'm a lazy SOB they don't know it they do not know it I think I'm a good employee but I'm a lazy AF so uh the battle the battle here the internal battle for me every week right now I'm on holidays but when I go back to work the battle is always the same battle how can I be how can I die to self and be of service how can I use the talents God gave me to be of service and to be really present and not just counting the hours to my lunch break or to when I get to go home that's exact same battle and it's the same thing in the church yes I'm in the church yes okay yeah I belong yeah God loves me Christ died for me whatever yeah okay but can I get past my selfish desires can I get past that and sometimes I do sometimes I don't it's for for the most part I'm just disgusting I'm just a disgusting lazy loser and it's the same thing in the workplace and if I to the to the extent that I'm aware of that and it sounds like I'm beating up on myself and I'm being too harsh on myself but it's it's a reality I can I promise you that but to the extent that I'm aware of it and I'm working on it I can make little improvements and I communicate with my supervisor and I like just recently before going on holiday I apologize to him I said look I've been very difficult this year I've been going through some stuff personally I haven't been productive I've been distracted and he said David I love you you're my brother and we all go through things I'm you know you're here you're part of the team you do good work and you're you're this you're that and you know and so he's upbuilding me and I felt better and you know it's that communication it's the exact same thing with Jesus Christ in in the sacraments and in prayer life it's like look I'm a loser I'm disgusting I'm not worthy I'm not worthy I'm not worthy and he's like I love you I died for you and let's just keep going and I'll give you some strength so it's exact same thing does that resonate with either of you definitely it does except that I I do think and look I think it's beautiful and honest when people recognize their sin and they recognize where they're at like you know that you recognize the depravity the corruption that exists within you but you know the the way that I see the New Testament talking about us is that you were once Darkness now you are light in the Lord so walk as children of the light put on the new self created in true righteousness and Holiness and so I kind of feel like it's not that what you're saying is not true but I kind of feel like um the more that we focus on ourselves as terrible Sinners if when we focus on the sin then we're more likely to stay in it whereas when we focus on the holiness then we're more likely to live holy oh I'm productive today at work I'm productive yeah I could try that I could try that I could try that yeah like I mean if you go to work and instead of saying what a lazy guy I am I hope I can overcome this terrible laziness you know instead if you go to work like wow I am so holy Christ has made me so holy I thank God that I am no longer that person that I used to be because I have the righteousness of Christ and the power of the holy spirit is in me to carry out all of God's will God created me to do good works and he's empowered me to do those in his spirit and um you know here I am a person that has been transformed and I'm being transformed every day more and more into the image of Christ and so you know I feel like sometimes when we focus on the negative we actually make what Christ did so little you know because if people hear you saying this you know there's there's plenty of people in the world that are like okay well then what has Grace done for you you lazy slob you know exactly exactly they get it thank you I'm just being sarcastic but no I appreciate it I'm going to live stream you at work just so you can stream all day while I'm at work you could be in the little corner of my screen pep talks yeah what do you think I think it helps to see Holiness not necessarily in like a personal sense but also just in like a set aside type of sense you know like Holiness being to be set aside for something and so then you don't have to like we don't have to like self-inflict um you know uh uh and self-wound but it reminds me of the story of two monks that were both guilty of the same sin and they both go off to their priest or bishop and they're like what do you want us to do and he's like I want you to spend a year in in Repentance and uh fast on bread and water so they come back and um the one is bright and beautiful and golden and the other one is like thin and emaciated and crying and and he says to the one that's crying like what did you do and he's like I fasted and I cried and I wept for my sins and he said oh that's acceptable and he turned the one who was all bright faced and like beaming and he said what'd you do and he said I thank God for my forgiveness and he's like that's also acceptable and then David I told you this story before this is from the desert fathers but it's I just I love seeing that the two and he's like well both of those things are acceptable and all I'm thinking to myself is like I want the one that was easier give me give me the goal give me the golden base dude like yeah yeah I'll praise I don't want to fast you know I'm like such a fat kid at heart so I'm just like whoa where's the one where we avoid the suffering I use I know that that's not possible but still Saint Teresa of Avila or Saint Teresa the Little Flower one of them said uh if you fast fast for God or you can Feast Feast for God so it doesn't matter it doesn't matter fast or Feast but do it for God I think Saint Paul said something similar enough yeah I like that because I like the option of not um saying no to me but you have to do it for God that's the thing right I know and I do know that I need some some fasting you need to lose weight you're chubby I am I am I am and it's something I I struggle with I didn't know that yeah I was kidding now I feel bad that I made the joke oh I don't take offense to it I'm gonna fast for a year on bread and water I think that's the stream that's what they were guilty of they were poking fun at their brother no um go ahead Rebecca oh I was just gonna say well Aiden you mentioned that you wanted to talk about the rosary I brought my rosary that my friend sent me from Israel wow yeah I've got mine right here cool so I I'd be happy to learn from you guys and David I did listen to your the thing about the Marion dogmas that you sent me this morning did you learn anything yep yes I did I want to grab something it clarified me that clarified for me that the Catholic teaching okay and I guess there was only I mean and so I think there's some interesting points and then there's some points that I'm kind of like hmm I don't know so um but I'll let you guys just tell me what you want to tell me about the rosary and about Mary [Music] begrudgingly every day well try to do it every day it's an uphill bottle for me it's so cool it is um it is so I want to start off with one anecdote and I was working at Sacred Heart Hospital and anybody who would talk to me about Jesus I just wanted to like like I just wanted to listen to their stories because I love I love a good mystical story I love a good I want a miracle story I want demons I want angels I want battles I want um Supernatural I want to hear all of it you know and um and uh so one of what's up is Brianna here oh come on give me a break give me one second sure hey my little sister's here oh cool very cool yeah so is your Rosary made with the wood of a special Tree in Israel do you know not sure not sure I just know it came in a package like that was postmarked from Israel and it says like Jerusalem on the cross in the back ah very cool yeah because I think I think maybe they try to use the same type of tree that was used in the True Cross of Christ do you know the name of the tree I can ask Aiden he might know it no my little sister dropped by so actually I have to yeah I have to cut this short but okay there's two things I just wanted ah man let's get into the good part you like busted we could do it again yeah we'll do it again I know let's do a thing where we can go through the whole roses yeah okay let's just go Rosary okay Rosary all right so you want me to save what I had prepared ah man Lane okay you won't feel rushed you can go ahead if you want to I'm just I just I just love it it's so infectious all right I'll give you I'll just give you this one thing so um it's Sacred Heart I had a patient and his mother was very charismatic and he was a grown man she was in her 60s or 70s and she used to have very anti-catholic stance but she was also Pentecostal and she said she had two moments where she walked in on nuns praying the Rosary and both of them were very illuminative and they were both um what what she stopped speaking poorly about Catholics as Christians she said I I walked in on a nun praying her Rosary she was walking around her room she had her beads in her hand she was praying and she said the room is filled with the Holy Spirit like a physical manifestation of of clouds of the Holy Spirit and she's like and that's ever since I had those those moments I stopped talking disparagingly about Catholicism and I stopped um speaking poorly about the Rosary and I thought that that was really you know just a cool just a cool little um little moment that I got to have that was it was Illuminating for me because I always questioned my choices no matter what I do and I think anybody anybody does if they're being honest with themselves and uh I thought it was really freeing and lovely to hear somebody um talk about um you know one of their biases uh being erased but the other thing I'm going to leave you with is this um so Robert Llewellyn Anglican wrote a book called um into Silence I Believe or a doorway to silence and it's about the rosary and he writes and I believe he stole this from Saint Julian to Norwich I was taught that every contemplative Soul To whom it is given to look and to seek will see Mary and pass on to God through contemplation and so any fear that we have about looking at mother Mary can be erased because she is almost um exclusively just used as a stepping stone to get to the Lord and I guess you could always say like why use her in the first place but it's there's just something about having a mother available to you and sometimes we have this block against seeing God as a mother and so when we start looking towards Mary we start looking at God in a different lens and we can see him as that Eternal mother and father that he actually that he actually is and I think Mary gives us with that ability but that's all I got that's all I got because I gotta bounce now but well okay thank you Eden enjoy your sister enjoy your sister she comes from afar uh 15 16 minutes but I haven't seen her in like years okay yeah it's been it's been a couple years I know I know so I gotta go make her coffee and and show her the house and and be a good big brother so all right I love you both thank you so much for everything Rebecca keep me in your prayers David definitely keep me in your prayers again you're both in you too yeah thank you so much and we'll book you for another uh talk with Rebecca okay yeah let's do it because I really do want to go down that road too and then I'll do a prayer for you also yeah like a real one yes okay we can open it up with that I think sure okay that'll be super awesome so all right guys I will I will bye talk soon cool nice guy yeah yeah I love Eden he's great do you know how his uncle is no I haven't talked to I interviewed him twice and I haven't talked to him since but he's uh he's a cool guy too um uncle uh was it Mark Mark you got it you got it yeah here memory is better than mine so yeah did you happen to catch his interview that I did with him one of the two yes I did so he's uh had his own challenges like we all do whatever and uh pretty cool he's pretty authentic sincere guy open but uh yeah so talking with Aiden he's got a slightly different take obviously from myself right so you find that refreshing that we're not all in the same in the same rut uh you know oh no I mean individuals we're all individuals because I would hate to you I would hate to give you the impression that this is what it's like where morose and we're you know down on ourselves and all this sort of stuff no I have other Catholic friends David okay so don't worry okay I have a spectrum of you know but but you know if I'm giving you a hard time for being down on yourself or whatever you know but don't think that I I think poorly of you I think very highly of you you're blessed you you have a wonderful faith you know I'm I I have a very great respect for you and and so I'm I mean to me your faith is is wonderful thank you very much um so what uh what did you feel about uh uh did you want to talk a little bit about the merry stuff before we wrap up okay sure let's do it so just okay do you have it notes handy or just no I just listened to it this morning so I should be able to kind of Recall now I think I mentioned this before but this was you talked about this and read from the book um it the thing that I find the most interesting about Mary is this idea of her as the the new EVE yeah you know that and so I'm contemplating this idea of her being a bigger role in our Redemption than maybe I've given her credit for yeah okay so um and and then from that I can also see how we would derive the sinlessness of Mary okay like um because you know if you think okay for Christ to be born without the taint of sin then we would then you know maybe Mary would have to be sinless so I can I can get there right but I'm not saying I I'm not saying I'm there like I I also think well you know that would be mysterious right that would be mysterious how she could end up sinless and and the way that you explained it or the way the book explained it is this was God's doing God just he did it that way and that's that's that's all the explanation we're gonna get right like this is a work of God he he made her sinless right um so I'm fine with that kind of mystery so but then I'm also fine with the mystery of how if she wasn't sinless then how could Our Savior be sinless um while she had sin and so I'm fine with that mystery too I understand and so I'm fine with both either way that it goes either way whatever the truth is there's a mystery there and then I guess it would be strange to me although this was you explained this but I mean you also explained it in terms of a mystery because you said there the the idea is that while Mary was sinless she still needed the salvation of Christ and so that's a little bit harder to understand how that works theologically so maybe we could talk about that yeah I mean I I don't feel a great need to dwell on the sinlessness of Mary because you're I agree with you 100 there's going to be a the tension of a mystery either way and so it's just like if Catholicism turns out to be true this isn't going to be a hurdle for you at all period right yes accept it but we can talk about it a little bit um the prevennient grace is it's a unique privilege that uh was bestowed on Mary that at the moment of conception she was accepted from the general rule which is that we're born into the original sins so um it was just a preemptive move made by God in light of The Graces in the merits of Christ and uh he prepared the ark you know uh or um what's the other analogy that's made with Mary uh issues the Ark of the Covenant she's also I guess Tabernacle maybe yeah the Tabernacle yeah the uh she's the Ark of Noah Noah's Ark you know so there are many many over overlaying um sort of like layers of mystical imagery that's used for Mary the new EVE Arc of the Covenant the Tabernacle the Ark of Noah these sorts of things um sort of like mixed metaphors I guess is okay in Christian doctrine just because we're struggling to understand these things and it sheds light in different ways and there's a lot of poetry involved in terms of just going beyond the literal mundane but um yeah so for me uh it's it's so mysterious that I don't even attempt to understand uh like like just just for example the the fall the Fall From Grace it's called The Mystery of iniquity like uh we can go back to the fall of Adam and Eve or go back to the fall of Satan uh I would love I would love to understand how Pride crept into one of the most glorious and brightest and perfect of the seraphim in the highest Choir in heaven I would love to understand that but I don't think uh well I know it's not possible in this life but I don't think even in all eternity I will fully understand that I think it's a mystery correct me if I'm wrong what's your perspective on the uh the mystery of iniquity in the fall of Satan is it something you think we could grasp eventually on Judgment Day or and in eternity oh I have no idea I think there we will know many things then that we don't understand now so I'm not gonna I'm not gonna count it out that I wouldn't understand it I think probably um it it's likely that we will okay but in this life uh you sympathize with me and you agree with me that we will not understand in this life the mystery of iniquity it's beyond you right now to understand how Satan could have rebelled well I mean I don't think it's completely Beyond like maybe it's not Beyond I mean I don't know like it depends what degree you're talking about for understanding like in the same way that we can understand God yeah we understand God but that doesn't mean we understand everything about God I think there's some things we can understand about the fall and about Satan's fall um that doesn't mean we understand everything but I mean what do you what does it mean to you that you can't understand it well if I I I I will attempt to explain it to a child but first I want you to pretend you're speaking to a child in Sunday school and the child asked you why did Satan if he was a good Angel why did he fall just explain it like you're explaining it to a child in Sunday school for me and then I'll see if I agree with you and if I could add anything or if you're going beyond what I think is reasonable to uh conclude well it seems like we we have some hints in the in the Bible that he wasn't happy with his position he desires God's position so I think the child would interrupt you and just say hold on so he's one of the highest Angels full of God's glory and and he wasn't happy yeah just like don't you see all these days people around you that have like wonderful things wonderful toys and they're not happy with them you know you give a child a toy five minutes they play with it and then they're done and you know you fight and then I wouldn't say this to the child but I mean look around at the most rich and powerful people in the world are they satisfied or do they usually want more than what they have right like so this is this is really radically different from my perspective on Satan like you uh you seem to be bringing this Fallen World into the pre-fall Heaven if we can call it Heaven I don't know what's called heaven or it's just called God and it's in his choir of angels uh choirs of angels you seem to be importing all of this concupiscence and our tendency to sin which were the result of original synonyms result of the Fall it seems like you're sort of uncritically importing all kinds of stuff that doesn't belong in that that space and that time uh uh that's my criticism of your explanation to the child because there's a Perfection there and then that we don't have here and so I think it's misleading to the child to say well just like rich people today they're greedy and they're tempted to want more and they sort of things like the child would say yeah but we're in the Fallen World Satan was not in a fallen world when he fell that's that's where the mystery comes in do you see do you see the problem um well but I mean the same situation existed for Adam and Eve right they were in a good place and yet they were still tempted yeah so I mean but they were tempted by Satan who had fallen already see yeah so the the initial it's the initial one that's the trickiest Adam and Eve falling uh my understanding of that is a lot yeah I mean it's easier for me to understand that because I can see how Satan who has already fallen would pose a threat like if you don't um if you eat it you will not die okay so what some theologians have said and this is speculation what some Catholic theologians have said is that when Satan the serpent or the dragon whatever he was in the garden said if you eat it you will not die that was a threat meaning that eat it or you're gonna die and uh you know so if you eat it you if you eat it you will not die but if you don't eat it you will die because I'm coercing you into eating it that's the interpretation of some theologians so you've got this menacing Fallen creature Satan saying if you eat it you will not die and what he means is you better eat it or you're gonna die at my hands so that's the interpretation of some and the menacing Vibe I've carried with me ever since I've read that interpretation even though it's not the standard or the or the common interpretation I've carried that menacing threat of the serpent with me to this day because it is a fact that that serpent is a fallen creature and so there is that taint of sin in the Garden of Eden even before the fall of Man so uh anyway all of this to say that there is such a mystery about evil that original sin and how God's grace could prevent Mary from having that default condition uh it's it's a connected mystery but it it Harkens back to the fall of Satan for me that's where I want to go to resolve the whole mystery of original sin to begin with and because I believe that it's beyond me to comprehend it I just have to take it on faith and therefore I take the preventive Grace that was bestowed on Mary uh by the same uh by the same sort of Blind Faith so it's not a problem for me because I just I'm not in a position to judge the preventive Grace just like I'm not in a position to judge the mystery of iniquity so I throw my hands up and I say God I trust you and that's it yeah well and I understand that like when I was listening to that I just thought okay well these are things that you know if you're Catholic you accept you know and like I have no problem with that there's lots of things that I just accept you know um because that is the teaching you know of the Bible or whatever um you know even my own Traditions that I've been that I've been raised in so um I I have no problem with that I guess the one that I would say is the most doubtful for me is the Perpetual virginity of Mary yeah and that's simply because I do feel like there's enough in the Bible that like I mean we have Jesus's mother and I mean his brothers talked about and so I know that there are Catholic ways of understanding that like you guys mentioned earlier um but and the other one that I've heard that you guys didn't mention is that these were Joseph's children from a previous marriage I don't believe that I don't believe it you don't believe that okay so and then also there's you know the the verse that says um Joseph had no relations with her until she gave birth you know there are other verses that show that that's not necessarily implying anything about what happens after that point just just like uh when God we talk about God and or Jesus Christ you know he will do such and such until such a time and then does that imply a change afterwards no God forbid so there are many examples they don't uh I don't have them at hand on the tip of my tongue but I could pull up examples like that counter examples where it's just like do you really want to apply that rule to the use of the word until in the Bible because it ain't going to end well for your theology that's for sure you know so yeah we don't need to go down that road but um you know the way I think about the Perpetual virginity and I think this will help you is once you come to adopt the mother of God as your mother the mother of Christ as your mother you will intuitively desire to give the benefit of the doubt to Mary in all things and to believe even if it seems absurd and ridiculous and it seems to contradict the Bible it seems to contradict the history and the archeology whatever you will want to give the interpretation that gives the most glory to the mother of Christ once you have a relationship with her and you will want to just err on the side of right giving her credit giving her credit that implies though that there would be something wrong with her having a sexual relationship with her husband right and so to me that is the part that's like okay for me and I guess you know what to say the real question the real question for me is am I giving Mary the honor that is to her as a Protestant that's the real question that we're dealing with this yeah Perpetual virginity is a side issue it's just the one I said is the most doubtful for me but either way like if she is a Perpetual virgin or isn't to me there's no difference amount of Glory or honor that's given her because I wouldn't see her if she if she had you know had a sexual relationship with Joseph I wouldn't think any less of her you know what I mean because I don't see that as a bad thing but what does Saint Paul say about that which is better which is better virginity or marriage which is better what does Saint Paul teach okay well if you're pulling from you know First Corinthians and you know where he says okay I think it's better at the present time for you to remain as you are right um you know then i i s if you if you pull from that and you make that as an absolute and not just a for that present situation then I guess you could make the argument that it's better to to remain unmarried right let's just ignore the Bible and just talk about what impression you get there are two Saints one was married one was not married one became a none uh which one do you think is uh better which one is better they're equal totally equal so to dedicate yourself to to have a mystical marriage because I don't know if you're familiar with the lives of the Saints the female saints but many of them were betrothed to Jesus they were married to Jesus Christ and they they saw it as a direct Choice like you can marry your fellow man or you can marry me and like Christ basically proposed to them like he can only get married once so is it going to be me or that guy that you're interested in and they chose Christ it's a better choice it's a better choice so you would need to be familiar with a sort of mystical marriage uh that is open not only to women but also to men we can have uh virgins uh male virgins also who are the mystical bride of Christ and the the male Saints also speak of this it's more appropriate I think when speaking to a Protestant to limit our conversation to females who choose Christ as their spouse just because it's less awkward to talk about especially in 2022 when we've got lgbtq stuff going on but um I do consider myself feminine with respect to God in relation to God uh uh I'm passive I'm the bride he's the bridegroom so uh this is a little bit controversial in 22 to talk talk about this but uh it's a reality I do feel that's a reality that I'm a man I'm male but in the spiritual realm relative ontologically relative to God I'm passive and I'm receptive and I'm not the source of anything you know and if I have fertility in the spiritual realm it's because he's going to inseminate me like that's it it's just that's it's just that simple you know so um I can't remember where I was going with this but uh I think it's better to be a virgin yes I wish okay I wish I were a virgin I really truly do wish that I were a virgin I really do you don't um no I mean I look I I feel like you if you're if you are single and you're married to Christ and only him that's beautiful that's wonderful that's a great um representation of you know uh the bride and bridegroom and then the physical marriage between a man and a woman if they're living in a way that's honoring to God it's also a great representation of the bride and bridegroom and I do think there are people and I mean I think you can be married to Christ and have a physical marriage so for sure for sure but uh I just think it's better to be to have that full commitment and uh I admire those who did and the Bible also talks about the The Virgins and the Saints in heaven the sisters things um and there's also the question of Purity which I think is a real thing even though you know marriage is good um in the comments I've got Northern Light my friend who I believe is hails from Scandal somewhere in Scandinavia I can't remember exactly where perhaps Northern Light you can tell me um and I forget if this is a man or a woman but Northern Lights a good friend in the comment section of my YouTube channel and the question is do you both see yourself as Christian humanists so I'll let you start Christian humanist I I have to understand what the definition of a Christian humanist is okay so what does that mean I don't know I could Google it Paris yeah I would say by uh I don't know either but I would just say no I would just by default say no I'm not a humanist because I would need to understand what humanism was beforehand uh Christian humanism I'm reading from Wikipedia here I don't know if it's good source regards humanist principles like Universal human dignity absolutely 100 yes yeah individual Freedom absolutely and the importance of Happiness absolutely as essential and principle or even exclusive component exclusive no components of the teaching of Jesus so okay yeah I reject the happiness part yeah okay okay well I think happiness not in this world but in the next world is absolutely a part of being Christian absolutely yeah so happiness in this world no the opposite it's like right we have to suffer and we have to take the narrow we have to pick up our cross and this sort of thing so uh it sounds like it's got some appealing components the universal human dignity is really really important in this life yes really important and the individual Freedom uh to a lesser extent because we have to be slaves of Christ we have to be slaves of someone and we choose to be slaves of Christ so but Christ is freedom so we have that absolute freedom if we can enslave ourselves to him and we are voluntary slaves of Christ it's not imposed on us and nor should it be imposed on anyone so in that way yes I agree with the freedom part yeah yeah the happiness I have a video called Happiness is a cruel God to serve and many people are serving that God and the problem with making happiness your goal is that um if you are seeking happiness then you know it it will either leave you desirous of more because you'll it'll always be around the next corner um so it keeps you always um on a trail for more or if you finally get what you think what to where you're happy then you always have to be afraid of losing it because the circumstances that have made you happy can always end and so it's quite a cruel God to serve um and it will make you absolutely miserable if you set your heart on gaining happiness for yourself um but if you happiness is the product of a life lived for God so if you align yourself to serving God happiness is often the product of that even in great suffering so you know you can you can be suffering a lot um for Christ and if your life is aligned in the right way even in your suffering you can be happy so I think happiness is meant to be that it's a byproduct of Life lived for God it is never meant to be a goal excellent my I agree with you my friend uh he's in Norway he just let me know he's a male he's an or I can't believe I forgot his sex but uh we chat in the comments uh from time to time and uh yeah so that's uh that's an excellent summary of the the path that we're on I immediately jumped to the outcome in heaven in the other life where we're gonna have that uh participation in the life of the Trinity which is beyond happiness you know and uh he just let me know he's 45 years old I asked him my friend how old he was he's uh 45 years old so uh it's sad but true that we have to wrap it up because my Google meet is kicking me off uh I just got the warning there on the screen but uh to wrap up we'll we will talk more about Mary and uh I like your attitude it's a reasonable attitude and respectful and you know we can quibble over the value of virginity and sexual Purity and all these sorts of things uh another time but um generally I agree with you you know uh and if you come to see the church that Christ built if you see that in the Catholic church then obviously you'll join and you'll accept all the distinctive teachings no matter how bewildering you'll accept them with joy so that's not a problem but in the meantime you know I I respect your attitude and I like that you're um open more open than I would say a lot of Protestants I've talked to so I really appreciate that and if you have a loving attitude and you're jealous for you know God the Father God the Son of God the Holy Spirit you want to put them first as we all do so you're on a safe I think you're on a safe path anything you want to wrap up with no just thank you so much David I I really love these conversations it's a lot of fun and and I look forward to doing it again with a talk on the rosary yeah uh I just wanted to ask you how did it go I meant to pop by I just completely forgot to pop by what was it Friday night yes what did you do who did you talk to were the Christian podcasters that you talked to or what happened yeah there were um two uh mainly two guys another guy tried to come on but his internet wasn't working but um Jamie Russell and Eric the investigative Millennial they came on they're Christians um you know we we talked about the Lord we read some scriptures sang some songs very cool it's good very cool so we'll talk soon and we'll uh hook you up with Aiden again and uh I'll have you back for some more one-on-one and we'll just continue the the dialogue and uh I'll be praying for you and yours and I hope you continue to pray for me and mine and ask your wonderful husband to add me to his list okay yeah you're on it wow it's probably the first time we talked wow wow well thank him heartily for me okay okay okay I love you very much we'll talk soon okay have a happy New Year happy New Year bye

CVS Live Guest - 2023-07-22 - Joust and Rice (and Nikola)

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CVS Live Guest - 2023-07-30 - Aidan Lisney and Christopher Rice

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Rebekah is back to discuss Christ and His Church. Kevin joined and we talked about evolution vs. creationism. God is good.

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CVS Live Guest - 2020-01-11 - Canadian Catholic

so we are live this is my first-ever CBS live guest and I have today the honor of interviewing and chatting with Canadian Catholic welcome to the show Canadian Catholic yes thanks for having me David this pleasure to be here I'm sorry for the technical issues we had with the first tribe but this seems to be a lot better and just tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and acquaint the audience with your with your Catholicism and with your online presence yes I I am currently a Roman Catholic I was raised a non-denominational Christian and through a journey I D converted and became an atheist I was an atheist on and off for about one year and then through study through research through thinking I abandoned the position of atheism and started a jerking that eventually led me to theism and Christianity more specifically and from then on it was a journey it took some time but I found myself more involved and more interested in the Catholic faith and eventually I have been to doing can you maybe just tell the listeners a little bit about your childhood how you were raised I believe you were raised in some sort of Protestant young Earth Creationism can you talk a little bit about that place yes I was a non-denominational Christian and I was raised a young the cartoonist and I want to bake bread this any sort of colorful story you can tell about your faith at first memories you have of your faith and when you first as a thinking rational being we decided that the reason God and I want to worship this guy just talk a little bit about your first Inklings that God and religion are real and worthy of your adherence yes in the beginning it obviously came more naturally to me was something I was raised in and something I was something that was like kind of second nature to me if that makes sense now obviously right but over time you know I started more thinking about it and I thought went for it wasn't defensible you know I had the same doubts but my I really started thinking about it and wanted listen I just thought about it and not something that was pleased with was probably around 18 and that's the time when I started doing more deeper into the research understanding historical context listening events and stuff like that so the point would be around when I was 18 so that would be age just to give you and I spend a lot of time also debating and there discussed it particularly the separated atheism and the subreddit debate and atheist I eventually actually created my own separate at once and yeah I had these discussions so the discussions helped me grow the more antagonistic the discussion more development I experienced and would you say philosophy is a major part of your conversion away from God and then back to God I can you talk a little bit about the philosophical ideas that shaped your turn a little bit yes philosophy had a huge part I would say crucial and hitting cure philosophy right is the most important thing right and that's basically what happened to the philosophical argumentation the framework is important to understand basically everything related to the slide especially theology the vent that is really the most important part now of course there was a piece for science there is a place for history there's a place for biology for mathematics all of it but the primary for framework philosophy is the most important mmm some bit what when having these this yes yet the Catholic faith really when we're talking about Christianity I hope you means a more orthodox reversion to you right now in Christianity you're including fee Christians who are atheists but simply like the message of Jesus right then that's a different conversation yes I think I had my mute on there so that listeners couldn't hear the question is basically about what are the deal-breakers to like Christianity Catholicism so you can continue with your answer but there there are different the different deal-breakers for me and just sort of run through the gamut what would it take for you to leave Catholicism and Christianity when we're talking about Christianity as I said issue obviously depends what do you mean because if I'm there Christianity you simply need the most generic form or someone can let believe in God but simply like the message of Jesus then you could always be that if agenda meant something much more specific then that would have to be be the Orthodox for me to believe in one and historically invariably the Roman Catholic Church is II the church that developed from that Orthodox sect so one would have to show me that that's wrong for me to leave Roman Catholicism is the most authentic expression of that white believing sect of Christianity that developed how would you characterize the authority of non-catholics whether they're atheist Hindus Jews or Protestants how would you characterize their understanding of authority how do they speak with authority when they interpret the Bible or the Hindu religious texts or the atheistic secular scientific journals and all those sorts of things what is it with authority in non-catholic world use actually you would be surprised but with a lot of more historical Protestants and I'm not talking about the Protestants who are simply you know you don't even have knowledge of their own but faith in a hospital with historically oriented reformed Christians a half for authority there that they do understand a lot of what I say very intelligently and the issue is ultimately I would say more these people are interested in actually learning about the against leg phase Seymour the X and history the more they actually adjust some of their language to better reflect the problems we have so I've had discussions with one Christians you know they are not all the fundamentalist types who simply sit down and are not willing to listen anything from history they'll actually quote the church fathers interesting that still present the more historical use so yes I think it's a good thing that they also have some sense of this because ultimately it will be all religions have their origin from the fact that we have a neatly imbued desire to communicate with the divine and now of course humans have a way to anthropomorphize that divine and that's where you get the differences in religions time goes by a lot of anthropomorphisms get added you know the features of God that are supposed to be non troppo morphic become more and more anthropomorphised than there is syncretism where religions mix with each other and that's why of course you get so many different views but uh you know it's important to distinguish I think anti-catholic rhetoric tations from various sects from the people from different religions who are willing to engage more honestly and actually study what historical Catholicism teaches do you believe in an eternal hell because some Christians today don't and some Christians in history didn't what's your stance on an eternal unending punishment and suffering in hell I mean I accept the Eternity of hell unless shown otherwise but if you mind open to being shown otherwise I'm pretty open-minded when it comes to people showing me but my default position will be staying on the side of it in a very okay what would you say separates am honest from a monotheistic and I'm honest I mean those of the Eastern religions Hinduism certain forms of Buddhism where there's only God where there's only God and only heaven and all separation is illusion there is no eternal hell what separates the monotheists eternal hell from the monasteries yes so now when we're talking about something like this the most important thing to take is to understand it that the Eastern tradition is fundamentally different from core traditions that we are used to in those Eastern religions the religions understood completely different I've had talks with Hindus and they were not thinking in a completely different framework for them a lot of the religion is an expression of culture of tradition of ritual rather than just rigid truth that they want to you know explain to you that's why you see that a lot of Eastern religions are non Chris hella tizen ones for us and for Muslims this is a foreign concept I mean if you have the truth you want to spread the truth right and for a lot of the Eastern traditions with religions like Hinduism you see the almost complete absence of that mentality what you see isn't you know an emphasis on tradition on nationalism and you know on keeping national religion that is something that has to be taken from me basically it's the tradition in which so the difference between a bonused who looks belief in being eternal punishment and a monotheistic course it's been in which those beliefs to go I listened to your talk with our and raw and I did enjoy it I'd like you to talk a little bit about to atheists that I that I have some experience with Erin Roz one and the other is Matt Dillahunty I understand your interview with him was exciting but I didn't have a chance to listen to it can you just talk a little bit about those two characters because they're very visible in the aggressively atheistic community can you just talk a little bit about them yeah so I'm will acquainted with both of them both of them were people I is somewhat admired back in the day when I was converting when I was an atheist and when I left a Thea's right and Aaron raw was always someone I probably had more experience and knowledge with before my interview we had spoken before about various topics I've had before over text and Aaron rise definitely a person I respect very much he was and is one of my favorite atheist youtubers he definitely has a very entertaining when to in eighth and he is actually one of the biggest reasons why I now accept theistic evolution even a big Catholic she really led me there now when it comes to mental or hunty I think that he is also someone who is ultimately always willing to listen to you but one quality slurring that is sometimes displayed and sometimes ability link of opponents but otherwise I think both of them are people I people that are more open-minded and you might think right so yes I definitely have huge respect for them but I disagree on some key issues yet one of the main issues that I like to discuss with atheists is freewill and most self-respecting atheists today who have thought about it deny having free will can you talk a little bit about freewill and monotheism versus atheism just that sort of debate yes I mean again from an atheistic perspective as much as people do not like using that terminology freewill really is something that is being abandoned dr. Daniel Dennett was really a pioneer in this thing and yes ultimately Furman from the perspective metaphysical naturalism freewill is something that's an illusion definitely because we forebrain is simply a product of mechanical workings of the universe no different in a river flowing down the stream really it's an illusion yes take perspective and that is harder to address because when a theist is a very rich and diverse tradition they didn't it would have to be most from Atheist perspective it is totally logical for someone to ended the whole notion of free will living bucketing old and really pioneered this and I think it's feeling more and more since now you know there are still people who address this issue I must give credit to mr. Dan Barker Oh religion foundation who actually did write a book about this and did talk about the day first rejection of philosophers we have taken you know given us their positions on it he talked about blink - but really it is going down rohde yes it's finding more acceptance among the atheist community that free will is entirely an illusion and I think it is totally the framework under which the atheists operate were you a hard not really I wouldn't put put it myself that way when I was an atheist I spent most of my time he's using an Occam's razor as my argument so I wouldn't argue for my physical would attack another person's position when I started applying skepticism to my position that's when the thing started to change so yeah I'd like to because we're talking about freewill and atheism another approach I like to take with atheists is the beginning of everything that is and I guess you could label this has sort of a contingency argument for the existence of the first cause the uncaused first cause and it's one of my favorite proofs of the existence of God who is infinite in every perfection but that idea sort of segues nicely into istic evolution versus creationism can you just sort of give your reasoning of why you reject young Earth Creationism especially since you were raised with it ostensibly and one of the best arguments for the Big Bang and the singularity how do you explain the singularity and stuff like that answer are you is having God create that singularity so the first British that I like to make is that evolution is not every field of science that conflict a schism when we're talking about the theory of evolution most specifically what we're describing this deep my first city of species so the Big Bang is not a theory of evolution it's filled with this knowledge but fields with the theory of evolution is biology so change my mind is basically that as Christians we believe that God reveals himself also for me and evidence and so we can't merely disregard ever think the evidence is important in determining and changing our minds and I think evidence is sufficient this is not 6,000 years old and where the evidence is sufficient to save the Genesis the first folks were not written as ornithology textbooks they were not written to be seen from our perspective and just he analyzes normal history textbooks they're written there's a narrative to give a seola like so in Psalm 1 138 when a that says you wonderfully need to me in my womb all of us understand that this is was not the embryology this is just a poetic beautiful description of how thankful it is so Genesis incorporates a narrative that was very common around a time and around that is to illustrate points more easily and of course that's symbolic on the Sabbath they got wrist so Israelites has to do it's really a beautiful allegory sort of thing was intended for theological reasons and of course it's infallible and people assume when I take such an approach that I'm saying there are mistakes in the Bible of course not I believe Genesis infallible available is what I believe that the book of Job is a global not infallible is a book for repairing cars but I believe it's infallible for the purposes was written which is fee ology and equipping Christians to better understand their faith do you have difficulty reconciling some of the dogmas of the Catholic Church with your theistic evolution for example it is a dogma defined dogma and explicit dogma that the soul the human soul is the form of the human body so that's that seems like an insurmountable stumbling block for anyone that wants to engage in theistic evolution and there are other there are other dogmas normally divine dogma such as not really I don't I I accept that the human soul was not something that evolved was specially created so you know I I accept that date human humans in their physical form did undergo a process of development a mother soul but I don't really claim to know all that much about it I simply but historically the evidence that we have yeah so can you paint a little picture I'd like to understand how you see the timeline of God having created a good world that's the dogma of the church that he created a good world and that there was no evil in that world until sin so can you paint a little timeline for me of the perfect world that God created and that means a perfect universe all of space-time it was perfect until saying can you paint a little timeline of when the first human came on the scene with respect to you know the thorns and thistles and disease and death and that sort of thing and the six days of creation place yeah well you know this is again something that I do not take a rigid doctrine on you could obviously RQ mmm about the pre-adamite s-- so there for example but when we're talking about the perfect world or something what we mean is there was a specific time in evolutionary history when for example Eve human beings the perfect condition we live in and this is what was being talked about there obviously other explanations for it which I mean had I do not take a rigid stance on that specific one I accept this dogma that the Genesis thing that has historical behind it so I do accept that there was a little figure of course I don't accept the ones that become that because the church itself laughs famous encyclical Divino uh flaunt a Spiritu where he discusses a theory of evolution that's pretty much I think that was a very grown pretty encyclical that is worth looking at and seeing what the church permits us he would say yeah there there certainly a permission to examine both sides of the question of material development of of the body of Adam first the first man but I really want to get back to the timeline do you deny that God created a perfect universe do you think that there was death and disease before Adam fell and if not then just paint a little picture of that timeline how did how did the perfect creation look before Adam fell and then after Adam fell and about what time in history in geological time according to you did that take place I know I did not take a rigid stance on that at all no I I don't personally you know what we have to accept is of course the dominica teaching of the church and cancel it with the scientific evidence but as far as the knowledge goes if I can paint a picture um something that is not available then no I I liked him up because I just for the record would be being complete for me to do that in Tuesday's argue for what the perfect world would move like a world yeah I definitely believe that there was a time in history where God humans disobeyed God and for that pain punishment and you know the doctrine of the original sin but I cannot go beyond what the Scripture teaches us more allegorically and accepting evidence for origins of the human race okay I want you to talk a little bit about Adams birth was he conceived in the womb of some sort of primate or humanoid or whatever they call it no no I do not take that stance at all I think it was a fully human homo sapiens lived and his description in the Bible is a game based on actual historical event now again as I said so books of the Bible is up as actually Bishop Baron would say the Bible itself is a library so you can't go into a library and say is this library called allegorical or is the slight very literal right there are different genres and the genre of Genesis is mostly narrative genre so narrative is not just a liquori it may contain cores of historicity but mostly it incorporates the sisters it for to give a larger picture of see theologically right and this is exactly what I would say that there is a historical event about you know humans disobeying on a more deal event but I I don't take that Genesis was written as I don't believe that that even was the intent of the authors of Genesis yeah I'd like to avoid if you would just indulge me avoid talking about genesis in the bible if you would please just talk about what your Catholic faith consists of in terms of Adam okay and then we can get to evader but just with Adam like um you're saying that he was fully he was an adult fully formed adult when he was created by God did I understand you correctly well yes I personally accept that Adam existed as a historical figure it was our species Homo sapiens sapiens I am open to the idea that Adam did not have parents but I do not accept that a creature to live or so something like that I think he not means to describe actual history right or perhaps if you don't want to talk about it yeah I just want to avoid talking about the Bible it's it's it's it's completely it really is to me completely beside that point I just want to get an idea of this story in the timeline but you've made it sound like you're reluctant to put Adam in the womb of some sort of ape and have him be born and then be transformed by the infusion of the human form which is what would necessarily have to happen according to the Catholic dogma that the human soul is the form of the body so as soon as he has his human soul he has to have a human body not an ape body not any sort of lower primate body but a human body so at some point it's it's so it would seem that you reject the idea that he was formed in the womb of some sort of a is that true yeah so the key to understanding is that were all apes including me and you right I mean they're really from an accent understand if there was no difference of course she Kings are not simply descendants of Apes humans Clarence right so that is beside the point I do not believe that I'm open to trying different arguments I did not take a dogmatic stance my way or the air the magnetic things are important with an exception the things that are not undefined I leave undefined I'm open I'm open minded to the idea that president I'm open minded that's for example except what is the kinetically different and okay you should like to talk about Eve beings formed from the side of Adam there's a long tradition and it was almost enshrined as infallible doctrine in the first Vatican Council but it was it was it was in the first draft or the second draft of a document that was going to be published and propagated to it the franco-prussian war or whatever it was broke out so I didn't it didn't come to fruition so I don't have an actual don't my defined that Eve wasn't created from the side of Adam but I do firmly believe it because that's the overwhelming consensus of the fathers and of tradition what's your comment on that yeah so when we're talking about the church fathers the important part to decide is not just what they believed but the reasons for rightly accepted and this again was is a huge part of the guess like why someone accept something if you go to more earlier fathers right but we forgive that quote for a gift that what we tolerate from them we would not tolerate from today's fathers for example origin was basically a declared her etiquette still we use him as an authoritative very mature simply because of how early he was in history and how undeveloped the doctrine was language right and this is actually has been a part of respecting which is why they accepted something this is the important part a lot of people for example in the early church would have accepted geocentrism too did not go back to you essentially we evaluate why they acceptance and that's how we judge them so the issue that the church fathers believe a literal Genesis is interesting but it's also worth noting that there were a lot of shirt feathers that more generally tried to you know drive a separation between the realm of science and the realm of theology and theology of course is interlinked with science but there is a difference between them and this is the difference that has to be emphasized also as I said have to talk through the natural revelation which we accept that God reveals himself in nature and when this revelation paints a humana misleading picture from would be accepted historically and we have three we read what we accept historically because now I'm telling you I have a book commissioned fess my love the miracles the geocentric model of the universe and that was accepted the water treatment right not go back to that as we evaluate the historical context not only once they believed but why they believed it and when we look at it from that way theistic evolution is something that is totally in line with Catholic tradition which which I think again when we're talking with usage evolution we have perfectly accept the universe was created ex nihilo I accepted atom historic exists these are things that have been except maybe church and again you have to you'd have to convolute it a bit not to accept it now again I'm reluctant to call someone who does not accept several existence and not actually if it came but you know it would be harder to argue because it certainly has been defined as historical figure but as far as what the church permits that is what I take right Dietrich has admitted the acceptance of theistic evolution is totally in line well here we are warned not to treat theistic evolution as if it's an established fact that it's a truth we're warned that we have to submit to the church and the church has a final decision and it was merely a a lot of these documents from the different popes were merely encouraging us to examine different sides of the question just think with contraception right and then when the church finally spoke on contraception a lot of people were disappointed and angered by the decision of the church but I for one celebrate I think it was was a humanity asur what was the name of that that in cyclicals that pope st. all the six came out with you criminalistics so yeah i want to terminally ties which were humanity to excuse me yeah thanks the other one Humana generous i think has to do with the evolution the question of theistic evolution there's another interesting series of questions to do with theistic evolution and it stems back to this notion that there was a period of problem where you're now in the era of Providence but there was a of creation for six days whether those are six 24-hour days or whatever it doesn't really matter the point is that there was this sort of distinct realm of time whereby a special creation dominated and then of course God's providence takes over on day seven and we see you know we can breed and interbreed with different types of dogs get different explore different avenues like that but it would seem that the theistic evolution is forced to say that natural processes took took lower creatures and developed them into higher creatures for example the first life-form whatever it was it was probably small and relatively simple compared to a human being the the by all the secular biologists have different opinions about what that first life-form might have been and I don't want to get into a biogenesis because it's ridiculous it's another rabbit hole but the notion that I'm focusing in on here is natural processes developing a lower life form into a higher life form and there's the principle of proportionate causality which says you can't give what you don't have and so God alone and create and can create a new higher species and so it would seem that the theistic evolution the theistic evolutionist is abandoning the principle of proportionate causality with it which we can't do science and is abandoning this notion as Dogma that only God can create because you have the natural world creating higher from lower which is against the amount of time I think that's a totally inconsistent way to approach it because I mean under that framework we have to also abet and be whole idea human birth and development I mean any or womb you developed from being a single-celled zygote to being a multi-cell human beings right now obviously no one would ridiculously argue that that somehow violates any dogma of the church or any scientific principle it's the same issue we have here I mean God used natural processes to develop state the universe and the workings of the universe and be when we're talking about God as prepared as women you have to avoid takings of very primitive anthropomorphic principle bodies a cosmic painter and literally sits down with an invisible sponge you have to see it more from a more broader perspective we see that as the cause and the causing our times because we do not have a sufficient term to read what God did we only use our analogies so the best analogy would be a baker right this is the framework I cake okay so is it safe to say that you believe that thirteen point whatever a billion years ago everything was there everything that was in its whatever configuration it had all of matter energy had a certain configuration in thirteen point whatever billion years ago and the potential was there for everything that we have today are you saying that that potential has been actualizing is that what you're saying is that what theistic evolution is necessarily saying no not really because as I said these take evolution is mostly about to biology what you're talking about is about tis knowledge and because Molly G ken has led and the Big Bang Theory L just reminding people was discovered by father Josh limit and it was criticized for lending credibility to the biblical worldview that the university has seen you were beginning right so now we have come to a place where Big Bang has actually seen as an equation based on tables but there was a big bang is actually a very potent evidence right the universe does have a beginning at least or local one so no I'm not saying that there was a potency I'm saying there was a singular beginning and this is the most important showing that the biblical framework in the worldview of a beginning is justified okay do you believe in the first law of thermodynamics do you think it's universally valid that there is a fixed amount of energy of a fixed amount of matter energy in the universe oh sure I accept the first and the second law that it's constantly the the total amount of useful energy on average is always diminishing do you agree with the second is even the closed system in a closed system do you consider the physical universe a closed system or an open system I do not know okay well physicists can I studied physics at University physicists consider the universe the material universe in a closed system this is why the first law of thermodynamics says that everything in the universe is all we've got and matter can only be transformed it can neither be created nor destroyed this is for the entire universe okay so we agree with that you know I don't really see a lot of problem that I think that standard waitresses so this creates a problem for the theistic evolutionist because you have to say that in the beginning in that singularity if you want to subscribe to the Big Bang model and you don't have to but it seems like you're leaning toward it if you do subscribe to that or whatever model uses it doesn't just declare fake when I say that I accept theistic evolution I mostly talk about biological evolution that does not necessitate but I accept cosmological theories do as long as I accept the diversity of species that's what biological evolution is about so while I do accept the Big Bang model which many people are abandoning me atheists are and I mean it is for whatever reason but I personally don't that is not necessary to accept to us to get volution you could accept whatever you want about the cosmology as far as you know you can still be a theistic evolutionist if you accept diversity diversification of species right so that's the big separator because I've seen a lot of this where people say oh you accept evolution so that tell me this about for small inky tell me this about chemistry and I try to explain to them none of these are integral to the theory of evolution the theory of evolution by natural selection is about the diversity of species about how they diversified this is what I said this is my portion history I could accept that it not to believe in Big Bang or believed in Big Bang yeah that's what I said yeah it doesn't really matter what model you adhere to don't get hung up on the biological stuff I'm talking in very broad terms about the development of where we are today and everything we have today the life we have today and the different flora and fauna we have on earth and whatever basically the configuration of matter energy that's distributed throughout all of space-time today came from the past and the evolutionists whether it's coincidental or whether it's part of their evolutionary theory doesn't really matter but they all emphasize the fact that things developed from non-life to life and so on and so forth and to nitpick and say well that's not technically part of that field of evolution evolution is specifically about biology I don't care let's let's ignore those distinctions and let's just talk big picture and if you can forgive me for using the word evolution in that broad way like it otherwise I'll just switch to the word change because if you want it as long as it's clear that when I describe evolution what I mean is biological evolution sure so we're going to talk about change in general development of matter energy configurations in space time so whatever your model is doesn't matter but you believe that everything back then way back then had the potential to develop by natural processes into everything that we have today but there may be some divine intervention in there right where does divine intervention come in and how often are there miracles no I don't I don't see it like that I don't think that God has it's left it in often my framework is different my friend which is the very fact that natural laws exist and can logically be studied is inexplicable without something ultimately that will start resembling the divine so what I think is that the very fact that these laws are there rather than not being is the reason you are related to something divine I'm not saying that these laws existed but once in a while God's pops in and does the miracle but for everything I'm saying that the very fact that there are these patterns and there are these laws and there are these configurations is something that will ultimately invariably logically lead you to the man yeah there's something I want to go back to something you said about the fetus developing into a fully grown a fully grown human there is that potential within the human because of the nature of the human being there is built into that nature a potential to develop which is like in the Acorn there's a develop for you there's a potential for the oak tree okay it may not reach that fruition but there's the potential there and it actual eise's overtime and it takes in water and sunlight and all kinds of things from the environment just like the fetus does okay so there's a categorical difference between that development of nature which is built into your nature to have that potential for growth and for change there's a categorical difference between that development and not potential and the difference the completely different kind of animal for example a human coming from a bacteria there's a completely different category of thinking that's taking place there are no yes so can I ask a question do you think that the evidence matters when we're discussing theistic evolution evidence always matters everything matters everything matters do you believe but is it your assertion that evidence does not point to biological evolution is that what you assert yeah we've never witnessed what they call history can I ask you a question you mentioned that you have a science background or maybe yeah yeah I studied physics so then this will be much much more easier do you accept that an animal can produce offspring and whose descendants can interbreed over time they start to differ so much that they can no longer interbreed yeah it's because of the devolution that's like the genetic entropy right we're not getting better word hey as time goes on we're actually degrading so you accept that there could be a species let's run down that produces two lines whose descendants can no longer interbreed with each other yes of course what stops you from saying that these have evolved into two different kinds because you never get new functionality and new positive net gains in terms of functionality in terms of something something that doesn't well something that doesn't have an eyeball doesn't give birth of something than eyeball but we who accept the theory of evolution do not believe that that happens either that's a caricature what we accept is that through diversity species can no longer interbreed and once they reach a point where they can't agree they're starting to be considered new subspecies or a species and thus we get a diversification work from having one species you get several different species right yeah yeah I don't have any problem with species is actually a very it's a very nitty-gritty classification you know we need to go higher up on that classification scale to get to what I'm talking about I mean I don't I don't like these sorts of classification categories that are all very ambiguous and man-made and flexible too because we can we can even the experts differ among themselves so how many species of finches there are for example so your assertion is basically that animals and I'll try to understand correctly first is I used to accept the creationist model your assertion that various categories of animals were created independent of each other and this is where we get kinds basically we had a time or different categories of animals like lions and koalas were created separately from each other in fully developed forms and this is how we define different clients cetera certian yeah I'm not going to dedicate myself to that category of kind because I don't even know how broad or how narrow the kind is in secular biological circles and I'm not attached to any of these classification systems but let's just say let's just say that God created a bunch of different kinds in the in the in a non-technical sense of that word just different kinds of animals whether they're kinds in the technical sense is another question right I'm not I'm not married to that but God created different kinds of animals so am i I am NOT a cat and I'm not gonna ape I know you think that I'm an ape but I do believe that a lot I don't think that you're an ape I mean I simply go by what the word means in biology it's not that I think you are I think I just used that term as biologists use it I did not even yeah I mean I I've seen enough of aaron ross videos here's a phylogeny stuff to know that he thinks I'm a eukaryote and by you know I think that I'm a human being and I think that I have something in common with a rock and I have something in common with a drop of water and I have something in common with an ape and have something in common with a banana and I'm not ashamed to have something in common with a pile of excrement right I have something in common with a pile of excrement right doesn't mean I'm a pile of excrement doesn't mean I evolve from a pile of excrement so we need to be careful when we're when we're pattern matching and if you look at the phylogeny project it's really embarrassing when you see the way that one branch way over here is reconnected way over here because of some genetic discovery and they're like oops okay fits over here and it is it's very flexible it's very adaptable it's very changeable because they're they're starting presumption is it look we can classify things together like with like and the more they have in common in in in terms of physiology or in terms of genetics we can classify it that's the underlying assumption of this this is a secular evolution and I think a few evolutions also into that to know the problem again as as I said is was evaluating the evidence because ultimately look what you concede and this is the most important you obviously concede that through natural selection species or whatever category you want to use can adapt to their environments in different ways you accept that species mmm develop more positive traits right like having fur to withstand cold and the species that developed in South might have shorter fur so as not to get too hot you accept that all these sleeping I I accept you had long hair short hair and a dog's long way that point of view my point is what stops you from saying evolution has taken place once that happens and those species can't breed with each other anymore right can't interbreed they cannot have children they have adapted to different environments what stops you from saying evolution has taken place because I don't see any new functionality being introduced into the gene pool I see a degradation of the gene pool always we never see a higher form of life coming from a lower form of life we've never seen it no one's ever seen that in the laboratory or in nature we don't define evolution that way the way we defined evolution is the change of allel functions what we defined as evolution is its macro evolution basically would be simply speciation which is the inability to interpret anymore and the species have become so diverse that they can't interbreed they're separate you have to interbreed with others and as far as the development goes their appearance starts to change right because they have fur for example at different functions so yeah they always had the potential for fur that's the thing anything anything that develops any attribute or any any characteristic whether physical or whatever it always had the for that and that's what separates the young earth creationist from any sort of evolutionist whether you're theistic evolutionist or any other kind of evolutionist is that we don't believe that an amoeba or a bacterium has the potential to become a human given enough so you could always well you don't need to go that far I mean if you accept the basics of evolution then you could simply say I accept evolution but I don't accept their example a specific for me I don't see why you would separate between I think that there could basically be a single species and then diversify into multiple species that can interbreed yes a always could never become this big probably even define complexity because if you look at some animals they're much more complex and they have you know a common ancestor and you probably accept that wolves and certain small dogs had the common ancestor and if you look at intelligent wolves who are impacts or have a huge hierarchy and then look at a small dog that is it can't even bark properly you know that they come from the Somoza function again loss of function it's always a loss of functionality over time this is the thing we're not getting improvements when we get these purebred dogs that are always sick they're always degraded in every way shape and form and your example with going from one kind of dog to another kind of dog it just reinforces the idea that we've never seen a dog turned into a non dog or an aunt or a dog come from a non dog it's always accepted dollars and wolves had the common in sister right yeah they both look like dogs to me I'm no expert there may be so it's about look so it's what looks to you like they're like is that it no it's it's a theological question right I accept young Earth Creationism because that's what my church excuse me I don't accept theistic evolution I accept young Earth Creationism because that's what my church is always taught and so when I look at the different life forms and the diversity of life I don't try to imagine as you do and as Aaron radha's that we all have a common ancestor which was a single-celled creature or some sort of bacterium or something I don't do that you said that a dog did not come from a non dog but then you accepted that wolves and dogs had a common ancestor so was it a wolf or a dog that was a common ancestor well I mean I'm using the word dog very loosely as the as that common ancestor right but I mean if it turns out it has some long fancy Latin name it's going to look like a dog I guarantee you that it's not going to look like as it looks is it about looks no it's about Catholic dogma and we have been taught that tradition teaches us from day dot that that special creation is the case and that theistic evolution is not the case we have dogmas which forbid I think implicitly if not explicitly they that forbid us from entertaining theistic evolution so it has nothing to do with my appreciation of four-limbed creature and how much it looks alike with the dog and wolf and a source of thanks no it has nothing to do with my amateur approach to biology has nothing to do with I mean like I said it could be a long name of the common ancestor of the wolf and the dog I don't care but it's gonna call it a dog until I learn the fancy Latin name for the common ancestor but I guarantee you I guarantee you it will look like a dog it won't look like an amoeba or something like that are you sa David contest no so then do you believe that the Catholic Church can be led by a heretic who does not proof profess the true faith sure you believe that the church can relate I believe that the truth I believe the Pope can be a heretic the church is not dogmatically defined whether or not the Pope can be a material heretic I think it can be so when Pope Pius the 12th and I will find the quote now to just share it probably image after Leo 13th to find that a Catholic is someone who is baptized and accepts the true faith do you follow that yeah so do you think the Catholic can be someone who is baptized well I mean I've never met a Catholic who accepts the true faith completely so I hope that that what do they call it what's that sort of ignorance that we have it allows us to not fall into sin invincible ignorance I hope the invincible ignorance is behind the little old lady that I met at church who believes in reincarnation and the other one that believes in this new age teaching and the other new age teaching and the priest I met that doesn't believe in the real presence of the Eucharist I'm hoping and praying that they have invincible ignorance because they've strayed from the Catholic faith but technically I mean their material there they've strayed from the teachings of Jesus Christ they strayed from that faith I think it's going a little bit far to say that they're a heretic because to be a heretic you need to be corrected by the church and to obstinately refuse to come in line and that very rarely happens to any individual down at street level so then you believe their Pope Francis probably Pope Benedict the sixteenth a pope john paul ii where pretty much heretics denying what was taught as you said probably dogmatically about young earth creationist no I mean there's been no explicit dogma saying that a special creation of the body and young Earth Creationism at the age of the earth many sorts of things there is no explicit dogma I am I'm inferring I'm using inference based on existing explicit dogmas that talk about related issues right so this is a theological speculation that I'm engaged in and I'm free to do that because there is no there is no dogmatic pronouncement on young Earth Creationism I know that I don't have the weight of dogma behind me to say look here's the dogma a young Earth Creationism in this case but I'm speculating based on overwhelming consensus of the fathers and on the on the connected dogmas which are infallible and the connected teachings of the Living Magisterium which are infallible for example the ecumenical councils you look at the Council of Trent for example it strongly supports young Earth Creationism and it's not explicitly defined by the church so you are free I'm not calling you a heretic I'm not saying that you've strayed from the true faith I'm not saying that Pope Francis has strayed from the true faith on that point but he may have strayed from defined dogma on other points I don't know but I'm not policing him or anyone else right it's up to the individuals conscience to learn the faith and to know the faith in it to adhere to the faith I I give the benefit of the doubt to Pope Francis into you into everyone else I think Pope Francis is a good Catholic man with a good saintly man I wouldn't be surprised if he is canonized as a saint in the future I don't agree with him on evolution obviously but that's something that the church allows us for now to investigate is he is he investigating or is they just shrugging his shoulders like most people and saying go along to get along that I now I definitely think Pope Francis has been very supportive of science and has encouraged other Roman Catholics do not you know be more fundamentalist about this honestly I did not think that an earth creationist Catholics themselves are perfectly wrong I just think that scientifically it's important you accept the natural revelation - and I think that a natural revolution has pointed to the idea that species can bear supplying species are interconnected and interrelated and as far if you are not willing to say that the Catholic Church has been medically taught young Earth Creationism and you're willing to say that you can safely be a Roman Catholic and accept overwhelming scientific evidence my question is why not at least for Microsoft maybe you don't agree that if it's the case but help see the whole point otherwise you'd have to pronounce the fact that was right every takes or at the last bbc's at least that's of course I cannot comment on Pope John Pope first all the sixth III don't do not have knowledge whether they accept it but I know that Pope John Paul the second and Benedict the 16th and Pope Francis more pronounced the more pronounced emphases have made it clear that they accept did you not accept integration addictive 16 showed some sympathy towards clearly design but it would still be hard for me to expect accept that perspective that occurred this is the church's tradition as this is hue you have said because you said that was the reason why you didn't say there was just evidence which I tried pointing to you to words you said that no the reason I believe this is because this is what is thought if that's how it's been taught then I don't know how you can argue that Pope Francis is not someone who is mistaking feel perfectly not just historically living electrically because what you're saying that the church has taught this dogmatically and it has it no no no I never said it would caught it taught it dogmatically I see they're connected dogmas which would necessarily imply I think what I'm speculating here that I think necessarily imply that theistic evolution is off the table that's my speculation I could be wrong but I'm firmly convinced that the the dogma that God created a good world and a dogma that this soul is the form of the body those exclude the possibility of theistic evolution that's my personal opinion I could be wrong I'm not saying that it's a dogmatic teaching and you're a heretic if you don't believe in young earth creationist oh I'm not I'm not saying that and I want to emphasize since you brought up Pope Francis and the recent Pope's I do want to emphasize to you you ask me if I'm I said if accantus far from it I am my number one principle is love and respect and docile and submissive obedience to the Living Magisterium and that includes and that includes Pope Francis and it is centered on Pope Francis and that is the that's where most of my emphasis lies in terms of my Catholicism it's on the authority of the successor of st. Peter he holds the keys we need to love him we need to respect him and not only that we need to follow his lead in terms of emphasis he is not emphasizing young Earth Creationism and how that's the next new point that we that we're going to that all Catholics need to get in line with what he's emphasizing are what the right wing sees as progressive notions and the right wing sees him as some sort of socialist and some sort of you know yeah they see him as a heretic I don't see him that way I see him as emphasizing Christian Catholic social teachings a real emphasis on the dignity of the purpose is not Almighty is that what you said for me because I need to get into the ark to be saved so if I listen to The Vicar of Christ then I will put God first I will have the Ten Commandments a proper interpretation of the Ten Commandments a proper interpretation of the Holy Scripture of Holy Tradition I will have a proper place for Mary and the Saints I will have a proper proper ecclesiology I will have a proper theology I will have a proper social teaching so this for me it's more important to have Pope Francis than it is to have God Almighty because there are many sedima Cantus for example that have many many of the wholesome things that I have as a faithful Catholic but they don't have Pope Francis and so they are technically they're outside of the church and they're and in deep deep trouble they need to they need to get into the ark that's number one they cannot go to heaven if they don't get into the art I mean maybe I didn't understand the term whether it be you believe that the hope is above God Almighty is that what you said yeah because there plenty of people burning in hell who believed in God who worshiped God right but they refused to bow to not know I totally disagree with both the wording and the idea that implies I think that is totally outside of anything the Roman Catholic Church is taught it's a dogma it's an explicit dogma that there's absolutely no possibility of salvation outside of the Holy Roman Catholic Church you have to get in eventually I'm not saying that no Jews get in no Muslims getting in no Hindus or Buddhists get in lots of them get in but they submit through the Pope later to marry and going off without late of the catholic church there is no salvation that doesn't imply of course formal membership if you hear that the Pope is above God Almighty is heresy and absolutely unacceptable as well because I submit to the Pope I am I'm not a heretic because I submit to the precisely because I submit to the Pope right there are many people who didn't that's why you submit to his church and of the other way around no but you don't seem to understand the Pope is not God but he is God's vicar on earth and if I do not submit to him then it matters little if I say my rosary 10 times a day and I have a great devotion to Mary in the Saints because the son of a Cantus do that and those at magic Gloria do that's right so it doesn't matter if I have God and if I have Mary and if I have the Saints if I don't have the Pope right you have to you have to submit to the Living Magisterium that's my point that's why I place the Pope of Oh God Almighty in that sense in the same sense that if I live during the time of Noah I would put Noah above God Almighty in terms of I need to I need to submit to Noah in order to have life because that's what God has ordained could God ordained that those who refused order there prior to get on the ark Irish and so it is of the utmost importance many people outside of the ark that perished in the flood believed in God and worshipped God but they were too proud to humble themselves to a mere man that God had appointed that man being Noah and we all know the character and I know as I said I completely disagree with that idea the papacy in the Bishop of Rome the history behind it this does not support that view of it at all being part of because that's exactly why I submit to the Pope because he tells me how he tells me how to sort my priorities right because I submit to Pope Francis I know that the only commandment is love love of God and love of neighbor for God's sake so I have everything in its proper proportion in its proper higher hierarchy because precisely because I submit to the man who was appointed by God to be the Vicar of Christ the Son of the Cantus don't have it right so there they are in grave danger I don't know if you realize this but the Civic auntie's are in grave danger unless until such time as they humble themselves and they submit to the one true church and to that man who holds the keys do you not see that I agree that the city of occultism is not true and for the reasons but historical views and if I if I may speak I'll highlight that historically the church has placed even the council's above hopes if you look at polka nuria's the first and the mistake with Manos elitism will thing ended the sixth Council the whole idea that Pope is above what has been historically taught or that the Pope is above what God has loved is of course contrary to it the Pope Francis cannot introduce an Englishman he cannot even make it no Dogma to something that has not already been within means from Catholicism the Bishop of Rome holds and historically has held much less authority than you're willing you well you're completely missing the point uh first of all I want to correct you historically the those who were pushing that a council was superior to a Pope they they were explicitly condemn by subsequent councils and by Pope's that ratified those councils the Pope is supreme and he doesn't need the he doesn't need the church in order to speak with the full authority he has the full jurisdiction and at the full authority so that's a historical fact of the Catholic faith you need to look into that because the council is not superior to the Pope this is well established in in the history of the church and history of the council's you need to listen to that we believe that the Pope can overturn the rulings of the Council of Nicaea IIIi have never said that the Pope is omnipotent or that the Pope replaces God I said that it's important it's more important to me it's more it's higher on my list of priorities you submit to Pope Francis right now and it is to submit to God because those who submit to god are there many who are outside of the Catholic Church like you said they may they may find their way into the church and make it to heaven god only knows right my point my point is not that he's my point is not that he is God Almighty that he is in every way superior to superior to God my point is that it is most of the utmost importance to me that I'm in union with the Living Magisterium and that I'm in docile submission to the Living Magisterium because with that comes everything else the church is a perfect society all of the means of salvation are in the Catholic Church now there are means like you said there are means of salvation outside of her visible boundaries and that will help bring people in to the church this is the teaching of Vatican 2 if you read Vatican do the documents of attica - you'll understand my perspective it it's all about bringing people into the arc if you're not in the arc your dooms you have to get into the AIRC so God allows the means of salvation to be propagated outside of the earth just like just like with Noah in his day he went around advertising and there were little Noah hid it cut cults that cropped up and there are many saving truths outside of Noah's family and of Noah's domain geographically but only eight people made it onto the ark and that's the historical reality from my perspective yeah so it may be that our frameworks differ but personally for me I accept any authority that the Bishop of Rome has her head I accept specifically because first item for Jesus I accept the church established I do not first submit to go and then find that I first find God in the end I find his church so the submission to God inhale submitting to what history should not the other way around it means heretical treatments consistent yeah because you're you're misunderstanding mischaracterizing my model my model is it think in terms of Noah with his ark okay the most important human being at that time the most important person even above God Almighty was Noah because that's how God ordained that salvation history would unfold so God is humble he's not like us he's not proud so he knows that he's top dog but he but when he when he obliges us to submit to a mere human being whether it's Noah whether it's st. Peter or whether it's Pope Francis or whether it's his Blessed Mother the Virgin Mary he knows that the demons are incapable of humbling themselves but God is not incapable of humbling himself and we as Catholics cannot be proud we need to humble ourselves as well and that's why but it's a narrow path that's why only eight made it onto the ark and Noah's day and that's why many today are complaining about Pope Francis and many said that said if accantus don't even believe there has been a Pope for many many years right so we need to be humble as God is humble and I'm not saying what you think I'm saying I'm not saying anything heretical god forbid right I'm submitting to put to Pope Francis precisely because he is the representative of Jesus Christ and he is the the visible head of the church and of that living Magisterium ask a Christian if tomorrow it was discovered I know this won't happen and I don't believe this but this aid was discovered Jesus never existed but the Pope says that he did and others are mistaken what would you submit to we do submit to evidence that Jesus did not exist or reducible it's biblical Pilate says well there's a hierarchy in the sciences I put god almighty at the top of the hierarchy he is sites itself with a capital s beneath that we have divine revelation and beneath that we have theology and various sciences of theology and philosophy beneath that and then the Natural Sciences and so on and so forth right so um there's a hierarchy in the sciences I there the physical Natural Sciences will never will never no matter how they seem to contradict Catholic dogma they will never sway me they may make me nervous I may start sweating and losing sleep at night because of the overwhelming amount of natural evidence that seems to contradict the dogmas of the church but I will always as a principal put God first divine revelation and then you know that includes a tradition and Scripture and then theology philosophy and then natural science so natural science is really low on the totem pole that's why I'm very comfortable being you know being a young earth creationist even though everyone is so convinced by the so-called evidence the evidence is real but how do you interpret that evidence that's the key question and it's the same thing if they found the bones of Jesus I just wouldn't believe that they were the bones of Jesus I just wouldn't believe it because natural science doesn't hold as much sway with me doesn't have as much authority with me as philosophy or theology or divine revelation and certainly not of God and God Almighty my point is that I I do not understand how it is possible to distinguish submission human submission we owe to the Pope from the submission we owe to Christ I mean we ice a personal personal knowledge of the Pope as an authority only and solely for the fact that God and Jesus recognized the papacy and his church established it's not the other way around for me I do not see how it you know heretical and the perhaps again you might be under any to say something else of course and whatever the free that language is completely unacceptable the office of the Bishop of Rome is not supposed to be one of an orator stupid a in a role of the servant of the servants who has been entrusted with leading the church and he was not more important that God Almighty completely disappeared well if you had if you had a set of a can test friend and he said is it is it important that I submit to the Living Magisterium of the holy roman catholic church it's currently in rome in the vatican would you say it's not important because you have God you have Mary of the Saints you have all your liturgy and you have your your versions of the original that what do you say it's not important or would you say that it is the most important thing it is the most important thing even though you have God even though you have Jesus Christ even though you have the Trinity you know I disagree that you have Jesus Christ if you do not submit to Jesus so you don't think that the set of accantus believe in God a triune God though they don't believe that the second person incarnated they don't believe that the second person built the church on st. Peter they don't believe in the in Salvation history and the Saints and all that you think that the set of a can test don't have all of that they don't have all of that because they davidís believe that which ended when Jesus said that the church would never and wouldn't never be prevailed against so we do not have all that okay do they believe in God the Father yes they do believe in love the pub so if they came to you and said is it important to me that I submit to Pope Francis would you say no no you have got the father and got the father's about Pope Francis therefore it's not important I trust God the Father completely if you have him on his side that's whatever I would say that if you are submitting to Christ Church then you are in grave danger that's what I would say that's the difference between us yes but the reason I want them to submit to Christ Church is because it's the one who bears it's not first one time to accept the church and find the priest was be first start with God and we submit to the church because it's God who established it if the church was not established by God it's worthless completely but this is the most important thing - of course of course this is what the Church teaches right that's why but it's only those who submit it's only those who submit to the Living Magisterium that belong to the church and that that

CVS Live Guest - 2020-01-22 - Matthew Murdock

so we are live and I've got Matthew Murdock here say hello Matthew hello what's been going on what's on your mind and what do you want to talk about with me today well a lots been going on I just want to shoot the breeze I know that you were interested in talking about my views on Hell so I'd be since I had that went on the encounter which was a men's retreat after almost losing my faith completely as you know I don't know if people listening might know about that but you you helped pull me off the ledge many times since I met you falling into atheism but I had that really drastic life-changing experience by going to that men's retreat experience God encountered him firsthand and came down from that experience a new man growing the fruits of the spirit peace patience gentleness self-control even to the point where my wife actually said I want whatever you have something that she would normally say to me but you know that lasted for the last couple of months but now I'm I'm starting to kind of tank back into the way that I was before which is very unfortunate but I had to be out about that so we can talk about that that's why I'm at sure so yeah it's nice to hear that you had some good experiences with that and you know I've always been a supporter of everything you do because I know your hearts in the right place and you love the Lord and as I've said it many times in our private conversations if you have God I mean what what else do you eat really have God Almighty so figuring out all the rest is a joy and a privilege just to know God and to love God and to serve God that's the main thing and so that's the emphasis that I've always placed with you and I hope that that resonates with you as a Christian absolutely I because I was just reading in John Gospel of John when Jesus said that eternal life is to know God the Father and Jesus Christ whom he sent and that's that's what I want to do is to know him have a real relationship you know I think I just had no intellectual relationship for a long time where I was kind of going through the motions doing Christian things and just felt that emptiness and that's what eventually led to my collapse and that I had that jolt of an experience I know it was a move of God I know it was the Holy Spirit but I also know no I can't ride that emotional high forever and Here I am I'm not doubting God again but I'm just kind of you know I my old nasty self is coming back as with my family and not a loving person that I'm supposed to be as a follower of Jesus Christ which sucks and it's discouraging you know but yeah well it's an opportunity I just see it as an opportunity to be humbled by your own weakness by your own vice by your own limitations and all that sort of thing it's just an opportunity to humble yourself and go before God and say look at me look at what I am and look at what I am without you and without your grace and you gave me a little taste of grace I like it I want more and I'm nothing without it you know I'm I'm a pathetic mess without your grace I mean that's the boat that I mean that's the boat that you're in and that's the boat that every human being that ever lived is in including the Most Blessed Virgin Mary she's nothing without God without God's grace she had the privilege of the unique privilege of prevenient grace that came before she was conceived in the womb of st. Anna and so she she has that privilege that no one else has but without God's grace she's nothing she knows that and so even the greatest of saints is nothing and it's a it's a miserable sinner without the grace of God this is this is why I resonate with the Protestant religion so strongly even though I think that they're wrong to stay away from the fullness of communion with wrong their emphasis on grace is really awe-inspiring and I do get pushback from some of my comments so people don't like that but I think it's very important to realize that we're nothing without God's grace that really is the whole story for me and then like I said finding your way into a closer relationship with Christ and His Church is of the utmost importance to me but you can't do that if you don't acknowledge about the father you need to we need to take baby steps and we are you know we are spiritual babies we're not great Saints all of us and even like I said even those who are great Saints are only great Saints by the grace of God and they were they were just as pathetic as you are you can read lots of examples of Saints who struggled with anger who struggled with impatience who struggled with sensuality selfishness there's no stories that you can draw on for encouragement and so I I don't know what to tell you other than we're all in the same boat Matthew you know yeah it's frustrating because you know just for that brief period of time maybe a month or so I just I felt like I didn't have to like try to be something but I'm not I just was I had the peace I had the patience I had the self-control my thoughts would just for going toward Christ just naturally I didn't have to sit through Mike I better think about I gotta think about Christ I'm gonna focus my mind focus focus you know then I'm just focusing on focusing on Christ but just how it usually goes during the day you know it's just stupid but sad so it's just like you said it was a little taste but to maintain that I don't know how you maintain it but you know everyone's got their ideas but it was just such a real thing and I just I don't know maybe that's what it was like - when you're I don't know thank you fight or whatever maybe that's how the Saints were just blocking every day after they went through whatever they went through I don't know yeah I just seen a live screen here the live chat there was of a Christos Rick's mentioning that he finds it offensive when Catholics say or give credit to Protestants for the emphasis on grace I mean I'm well aware that everything the Protestants have comes from everything good they have comes from Christ in his church his Holy Roman Catholic Church so I'm not I'm not naive to that fact but when you see when you see someone running with one idea with one theme whether it's Bible alone and then you you sort of see that emphasis on the Bible it makes you it draws your attention back to that level Bible even though they're they're wrong to preach this this this notion of Sola Scripture it's it's the flawed notion but it does draw your attention as a Catholic to the Bible like in the treasure that we have in the church and that comes obviously from Christ in his church and the same thing with any anything else that's being emphasized in in the Protestant sects like in Calvin in Calvinism grace is greatly emphasized but they're wrong obviously they're wrong about many things they're just putting emphasis so much emphasis on grace that they're even willing to annihilate free will yeah I agree oh they misuse grace though and it's all all grace and you know I friends that you know will just go on living a completely sinful screwed-up lifestyle and intersect all of grace man it's all faith and I mean it's misused in those circles too and I don't believe that and I'm not a Sola scriptura guy you know all of our talks in my study through Catholic Catholic apologetics I mean I agree with the Catholic set it's not Sola scriptura is not not biblical the Bible doesn't claim Sola scriptura so I don't have to believe that I know that cannot be it but it's funny that you say that the Calvinists but they get wrong but Kat John Calvin said that nothing he ever wrote in his Institutes wasn't spoken by Augustin first like you just basically took all of his ideas from st. Augustine and then ran with it and I don't know so that's kind of funny but you'd say that because I think that but the Protestants especially Calvinists they say that Rome is so evil yet they got everything from a Catholic saint and then even the Catholics most Catholics that I have talked to I think you as well say that they don't agree with Augustine on a lot of things either yeah I mean he's it's just interesting to know that he is called the doctor of grace that's his title that the church has given San Agustin the doctor of grace because he does emphasize grace so if a Protestant wants to turn to st. st. Agustin and sort of twist his words or take their favorite parts of what he's taught and build a religion around that they're free to do that but they're straying from Jesus Christ in the process unfortunately but you know obviously the reason that I love San Agustin so much is that he's a saint and the church has endorsed many of his teachings not all of his teachings and he himself has retracted or corrected or nuanced a lot of his teachings later in life so I mean you can you just because it's a saint doesn't mean everything he says is infallible he submitted to the church and he the reason he is a scientist because he submitted to the church not because he emphasized grace although grace is a good it's a good of the Holy Roman Catholic Church that the Protestants have picked up on just like other other denominations pick up on one or two different key ideas of Catholicism and they emphasize it to the detriment of everything else and we always need to have a balance and we needed a living Magisterium that can resolve conflicts in private judgements and when people want to lean on their own understanding they're gonna run into trouble inevitably it's very unlikely that someone would lean on their own into understanding their own private judgment and come up with a set of dogmas that correspond exactly with those of Christ and His Church right the odds are against that so probably if you're leaning on your own understanding it's probably a dangerous endeavor thank you yeah I do and I agree yes you know I was pretty much on board with all this before but some of the issue that I take with that now is that what I'm reading researching some of the the dogmas of the faith it's really and I know it's it's private reputation on my own but I mean I'm saying if they had to get together and councils and iron these things out like we take a vote these guys say yes these guys say no and like when they were trying to reason out and flesh out the Trinity is that this is it that that's a bunch of men coming together reasoning and like taking a vote there were some people who disagree and some people who agreed like with the Trinity and what the consensus ended up being like they won the day they won the vote so therefore that stamped of the doctrine as a dogma and that's that's for the doxy right yeah but Betsy seems like a bunch of men relying on their own reasoning they were just pulling up the Scriptures and saying no this scripture says that the scripture says that this tradition says that and they were all kind of voting so that seems like human reasoning is the same thing it seems that way yeah and she seems like for the living Magisterium like I'm saying it I would I know this might be stupid but if it were truly led by the Holy Spirit I think that all of these men represent the Magisterium those who are anointed by God to give us incorrect interpretation on faith and dog doctrine you could stick them all in separate rooms but the same question right and they can all write it down look for and put it forward they all come together and read what they had whatever they decided on the issue and should be a hundred percent unanimous or else what you know if there's one dissenting opinion and it's obviously not the hope the same Holy Spirit communicating to all of them you not I mean yeah that's a nice that's a nice that's a nice fantasy but reality is much better reality is a lot Messier and that's not reality I mean we need to look we need to start we need to start with manifest reality what is the reality today I mean I would prefer that Adam and Eve didn't eat the fruit of the tree what they did okay so we need to start with manifest reality manifest reality as we live in a messy world every human is a sinner but by the grace of God I mean God can and did prevenient grace to Blessed Virgin Mary as I said before but even she is a sinner without that without that prevenient grace so we are in a fallen world we are fallen people our intellects are darkened and our will our will is weakened because of the fall and we our God is working with our fallen nature and it's a very complicated and painful process coming back to paradise and it's not as it's not as neat and tidy as you might like it to be but that's reality you need to look at manifest reality and if you look at the world all of the religions of the world all of those claiming to be monotheistic they worship the one true God and if you look at how they operate in terms of infallible declarations of the central saving truths you're not gonna find any organized religion that's living up to your naive fantasy no offense but that's just the way else I agree so because what we have is a bunch of people doing the exact same thing I'd have to take someone's word for it when there's no real way to validate I can't validate I don't because other religions are actually speaking the truth I'd have to take their word for it just like I'd have to take the word of these guys the Magisterium as you say know you know there's no way for me to about verify whether or not it's those guys are just coming up with things using their own private interpretation and taking a vote and saying okay we'll just go with that and a lot of those things it seems like that's exactly what they're doing no but you're you don't like how the sausage is made but I'm telling you the sausage is wholesome and healthy it's wholesome and healthy just away from the your eyes from the sausage factory that disgusts you but basically it's a wholesome and healthy sausage by the grace of God and there's an important point I wanted to make about that yeah if you want to look at if you want to look at why I trust or why you should trust the Catholic Church as opposed to any other group of people claiming to have infallible guidance of God it's because of the four marks right we have a church that is one Holy Catholic and apostolic those are the four marks and if you investigate those four marks and you try to find out do with it do a test find out if any other religion has the a and if you if you want to also you look at the three attributes that this actually helped me a lot looking at the three attributes of authority because given Authority indirect ability and infallibility if you look at those three attributes which religions claim those three attributes which religion today in just limiting it to Christianity which religions today actually claim that they have not strayed from the traditional teachings on family and sexuality which churches can you name any any Christian denomination that is not strayed on contraception other than the Holy Roman Catholic Church if you look at the history of contraception in Christianity you'll see that everyone started straying in the 20th century and before that there were a few a few cases here and there but it's really in the 20th century everyone started stringing everyone except for the Holy Roman Catholic Church I don't think that's a coincidence that's just the four marks and the three attributes shining through and anyone who's sober and who looks at it with a fair and open mind is going to see that only the Holy Roman Catholic Church is maintaining these very very unpopular positions on family intimacy sexuality and these sorts of things okay well I mean I agree with the contraception thing I mean I'm there with you on that I don't know if that's a oh hey that's one example of moment I yeah I mean it seems like I don't know I mean what if you know the Mormons don't believe in the contraception either so does that mean I should look at them they never changed we need to look at all of the traditional teachings of Christianity if we're going to limit ourselves to talking about Christianity that you don't need to know you can start looking at other forms of religion but if you're if you're happy with Christianity and you want to figure out where the true Church of Christ is I I suggest looking at the continuity of doctrine it's very simple yeah and that's cool but it if you do that there have been in the Catholic Church and Catholic tradition there have been developments have been changes over time no no doctrinal changes you could say it's a progressive revelation want but there are things that in the first couple centuries more didn't exist there weren't dogmas they were around as and if you look now at the growing number even you know the virginity the perpetual virginity of Mary didn't come around for what a thousand years or something no no it was it wasn't I'm sorry Immaculate Conception some of yeah some of those dogmas that we hold to now I mean it took a thousand years as I can know to happen and the schism happened and all that stuff that was like a thousand years after the church is going and it seems like they were developing doctrine developing dogma adding more just kind of like how laws just keep increasing like the law books just get bigger and bigger and bigger as time goes by yeah you could have called people you know before those dogmas were there they could have been living in Paris E or something no it's not a heresy if it's not well defined by the church right I mean the Immaculate Conception is a good example many people were opposed to that doctrine until it was codified and formally defined and then if you then once it's defined if you stray from it then you're yeah you're at risk of becoming a heretic if you persist obstinately in your in your in your private judgment but I wanted to just I just wanted to say there's no there's no development there's no there is no revelation after the death of the last apostle revelation is closed and every single dogma it comes from revelation it comes from the deposit the sacred deposit of faith which is sacred tradition and sacred scripture so there is there's no such thing as a new piece of information coming into the body of secret the secret deposit of faith like when we have a Marian apparition for example everything is tested against the scriptures and against tradition and so when at magic gorya this this alleged gospel who's supposed to be the Blessed Virgin Mary says that she is not the dispenser of all graces that goes against tradition so I reject I reject that and I'm free to reject it until the church says it's authentic and even when the church if the church were to say that magic Oriya is an authentic apparition it just means it's worthy of belief it's not contrary to belief to believe in it but I'm still free to reject it because it's a private revelation it doesn't come from the sacred deposit of faith which closed with the death of Saint John the Apostle so I really want to emphasize with you it's very important to understand that revelation is not ongoing the the public revelation is closed and every dogma comes from the public revelation never from a private revelation never from a Joseph Smith with a new piece of information never ever ever ever ever and if if it were not a constant tradition of the church that the Blessed Virgin Mary was conceived without original sin it would never have been defined by the church period simple as that so you're saying that a Saints in the second century would have been able to tell you yeah we this has been passed down from the Apostles that Mary was immaculately conceived and that she was assumed into heaven bodily they would have been able to tell you that he key players knew it key players among the Apostle among the Apostles how is that transmitted is it transmitted perfectly is it transmitted in a way where everyone is well aware of everything in the sacred deposit of faith that was handed down every Christian is always aware of everything in the sacredness house I faith you know of course not Peter and Paul well select there are select people that definitely knew because it's it's it's the Apostolic Faith which means that the Apostles knew right some of the Apostles knew every doctrine and every Dogma that we come up with the church in the church that we that we define that we discover in the sacred deposit of faith because that's what it is it's a discovery it's not it's not an invention it's a discovery every dogma that we discover was known by one or more of the Apostles and all of the dogmas are known by Jesus Christ and by all the members of the Holy Trinity right it's like they say these are eternal unchanging truths that we are discovering and defining and it doesn't mean that the majority of people the majority of Christians knew consciously all of the content of the sacred deposit of faith that would be completely absurd even in the case of the Trinity like you said there are people that were confused about the nature of God and Christology and all these sorts of things but there is a seed in the sacred deposit of faith there's a seed of that knowledge in the Apostles themselves if you think about on the road to Emmaus if you think about Jesus opening the scriptures to those disciples think about that there's a seed there it's like Socrates said learning all learning is a remembering so Jesus reminds the Apostles oh this is how you read the scripture this is the true meaning this is what was foreshadowed this is what the Messiah is this is what the death and resurrection of the Messiah means it's a remembering it's a calling back to mind were forgetful people even the apostles were frail in their intellect and weak in their will so God had to remind the st. Peter right he said he would deny him and he did deny because he knows the weakness of st. Peter but then he strengthened him with the Holy Spirit so that he could guide and protect the flock I mean this is it's all a very messy loose and messy thing but God's in control and he allows us to be weak and to be frail and to be forgetful and to stray and to fall into Arianism only sorts of things but there will always be that thread of that seed of truth that comes from the sacred deposit of faith that will persist that's the exciting part of salvation history it's not a bored mind we're we're all completely brainwashed in you know blind followers and we all have from a to Zed every single doctrine from the sacred deposit of faith memorized if you're a Christian that's what it means no we're all straying we're all subject to temptation from the demons and from pleasures and we're all subject to confusion and that includes that includes the Apostles so there's going to be a lot of confusion and there to be a lot of opportunity for the Holy Spirit to move Christians individuals select Christians doesn't mean they're better people but just means those were chosen to illuminate some of these truth and to bring this organic growth of our understanding of the fullness of the truth of Jesus Christ to fruition in the Holy Roman Catholic Church that's that's the teaching of the church so you need to see it in that organic way with the cooperation of an all good and a perfect God a perfect God cooperating with a very very flawed and imperfect people that's the exciting part of the salvation history story yeah I love it man there's so much there's so many points I wanted it copy and say wait so let's stick to them the Marian thing okay so it's a growing deal right but you're saying that and and you know I can agree with what you're talking about but so go with the Marian things when were those nailed down around what time they're before up to the marriage when was that an official 1950 1950 the Assumption yeah okay all right so you're saying that that dogma that doctrine has it's traced back to there's no private revelation come I didn't come up with it so that little bit of history that bit of truth was passed down from the apostles almost 2,000 years for it to show up and where where is the document edition did they find did they go and dig something up and find on the tablet somewhere that Peter rose somehow how if we have this tradition going back to the Apostles did they have missed something that significant and it wasn't told in the first second century and passed down why did it take almost 2,000 years for this to show up well it's a tradition it's it's a tradition that's always been there but it doesn't you know hasn't always been there because it wasn't there before 1950 no no the tradition the tradition was there the belief was there but it wasn't formally defined and automatized is there any trace of that that you can trace back to of course nice yeah me of course of course it's it's everywhere throughout the history of the church otherwise it wouldn't be defined I can give you I can send you documents and I can I mean if you want if that's the verification that's what I'm saying that's it looks we're this thing pops up after thousand years is that something that's been floating around all that time and finally I came down and said okay we're gonna we're gonna say this is this is right of course and what what caused them to finally come around and say in the case in the case of salvation thing right if I if I reject any of the dogmas I'm in trouble right so they're important and not to make an official dogma so why in the heck would you wait 2,000 years if it's all even there to nail it down like that I don't because it's it's a there's a bottom-up pressure from the lady in the case of the Assumption there was a bottom-up pressure people bishops were coming to the Pope and it was I was correct it was defined in 1950 but people were coming to the public the bishops were coming to the Pope and saying that our priests are being told by the laypeople that they want this to be finally defined because it's a popular devotion it's been it's been celebrated as a cooperative devotion traditionally anyway but there's there's a an outcry from the people from the bottom up that they want to see this formally defined because they love the mother of God and because there's pressure there's pressure from those outside of the Catholic faith and so they want to have the comfort of the definition right so there's pressure that comes from the bottom and then it trickled up to the Pope and he said ex cathedra he defined it I think it's the maybe the second or the third ex cathedra definition of dogma that we have in the history of the Catholic Church as far as I know and he defined it because of the bottom-up pressure to please the people because they were crying out for this for this Dogma to be defined even though it had been a tradition since the beginning and it had been part of the you know the the devotion the popular devotion since the very beginning and it's it's formalized in many different churches of the West and of the East that's another thing you need to look at the treasures of the East were also you know incorporating a lot of these merry and devotions yeah and I think there's a good reason for that the the East and the West both go back a lot further than any Protestant denomination does and they both cling to - these marian devotions right so we need to we need a really patient approach to looking at the dogmas finding out why why it was defined what basis they had to define at what sort of justification did they have what kind of arguments did they have and then you can dismiss all of that because once it's defined none of the arguments are protected infallibly from from error so all of the reasoning all of the argumentation that's all this is completely beside the point once it's been defined and the reasoning and the argumentation all the historical stuff is very very secondary it's the Holy Spirit that allows the church to define dogmatically these these eternal truths and all of the argumentation and the scholarly worship research they're not protected from errors so it's it's an it's a very interesting mindset to have as a Catholic where we've on the one hand we value argumentation scholarship theology and all the sort of archeological findings that support this teaching or that but they are all completely secondary to the movement of the Holy Spirit which allows the church to discover these unchanging truths so when they when it comes time to drop the hammer on that specific thing like that's because to me like no offense but that sounds like politics like the way people are putting pressure on the game he's like okay fine what we'll drop the hammer that but you're saying but it was the Holy Spirit that finally led cause you said it's like the pressure the people I didn't say lead I said alone is a big there's a there's a key distinction between leading and allowing the Holy Spirit allowed the church to define that it didn't lead the it didn't necessarily lead the church to define that it allowed by Church a big distinction but the definition comes from the Holy Spirit right yeah it's called Almighty the church is the mystical body of Jesus Christ who is going incarnate so it was revealed by the Holy Spirit to these guys that whatever time on any of these doc dogmas no no no no no no no no no it was revealed it was revealed before the of Saint John the Apostle and then it was discovered by the church and the Holy Spirit allowed the church to define it because the Holy Spirit protects the church from teaching formerly teaching error concerning faith and morals but it was revealed during the time of public revelation which was before the death of the last apostle that's very clear and you need to emphasize that you need to really clarify that in your mind please yeah because I mean then you kind of be a contradiction because it would be revelation by the Holy Spirit revealing ok you can do this later on yeah because the so the guys prior to 1950 they didn't know whether or not she was oddly assumed or immaculately conceived I mean you could go either way they didn't know didn't have an official stance it was it like if they were given permission like whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven it is it possible to any of these dogmas are wrong that you would still be no standing you'd still be sinning not to follow it because you're just supposed to submit to the power structure no no the Church teaches that these dogmas are contained already they're revealed by God in the secret deposit of faith before the death of the last apostle so that's there's no possibility that it's an arbitrary decision that the church makes and then the Holy Spirit puts a stamp of approval on it and then it's retroactive Lee true that's not the way it works I don't know you know you I'm not trying to be mean it it looks yeah like politics it looks like it's arbitrary it looks like they're kind of making it up as they go along yeah I I'm you know I would be happy if that's oh my god chose to run his church to say look whatever the church decides and put my stamp of approval on it and then it's retroactive Lee true like that's the way history unfolded I would be perfectly nobody innocent I would be perfectly happy if that's the way that God chose to do it but my church teaches me that that's not the way that God chose to do it the way my chief my church teaches me that the way God chose to do it is to reveal all of the saving truths all of the essential saving truths before the death of the last apostle and then the church is unfolding and understanding that and heretics come along and then the church opposes the heresy defines the truth and the Holy Spirit allows them to discover these truths but it's not necessarily leaving them I think the Holy Spirit is leading all men of good will the Holy Spirit is leading all men of good will I think the Holy Spirit is leading us in a certain way but not in this way that you're imagining where the Holy Spirit is saying okay you're the Pope so I'm gonna like show you stuff no I don't think it I don't think it works like that Wow and one question I've been wanting to ask me too when they were ordering like when the whole Protestant thing was going on and they were like burning people at the stake do you when that was coming from the top the Pope's and stuff was that a moral thing for them to do was that was that right for them to teach from the top down that that's how you deal with people with dissenting views as tournaments take or torture them you know where that's not my reading of the his you're talking about I talked about the Inquisition are we talking about well a lot of the the Protestant guys were being who are translating and like young boost you know the who cites those guys like all these little people who sprung up you know when the Catholic Church was in full power and authority a lot of these guys were you know burned at the stake for heresy Martin Luther was they wanted to kill him but they didn't find him do you think that that was a justified thing like should is there the time when the church taught that you know heretics are to be extremely there's no Dogma there's no Dogma about that so it's subject to error you know that's that's a matter of discipline like a hair a heresy is a dangerous thing and in the Old Testament God no he said if anyone tries to lead you after another God you kill him even if he's your best friend or if there's a there's a law that says if someone even your friend or family member tries to lead you to go after another god you're you should be the first one to bring him out to be stoned to death so do you think that the church has that kind of authority why or why not well I mean that the people the people in that in authority in the church in the hierarchy they're free to make mistakes and they're free to all of God's will and to apply God's justice right and that might involve self-defense and that might involve just Wars and that might involve you know a sort of holy righteous anger against Satan and his demons and it might involve at the same time and it might involve making a whole lot of mistakes based on pride and confusion and being led astray by the demons so there's nothing infallible in policies surrounding those sorts of particular details there was nothing enshrined in Dogma because there's nothing in the sacred deposit of faith that could that we could possibly enshrine dogmatically to say kill your enemies right there's nothing there's nothing in the sacred deposit of faith that would justify making that dogma even if someone wanted to if a pope wanted to make that as Alma they couldn't because it's not in the sacred deposit of faith so it's going to be left up to us as fallible men to use our prudence and our you know our discernment and to prayerfully make decisions about how to fight off our enemies and how to turn the other cheek and all those sorts of things is very messy messy situation I'm just very happy and thankful that I don't have any power I have zero power I have zero Authority about zero responsibility and I wouldn't have it any other way because it's a burden and it's to those whom much is given much is expected and what does it say in the Bible about don't become a teacher because more will be required of you what do you ever that oh yeah dad James yeah that you've got it that or you know you'll be a stricter judgment as applied to you thirty other people that's why I always make a point to say what does the church teach because I don't want to teach anything I don't have anything to teach I just point people to the church and if you don't think the Holy Roman Catholic Church is the one true church just send me the website of the one true church and that'll be easily and quickly resolved right but no one no one has ever sent me the website of the one true church that Christ built right it's but I have the URL of the Holy Roman Catholic Church the Holy See and those who oppose the Church of Christ are unable or unwilling to provide any alternative which i think is very very telling but as far as are you gonna get in your car and start driving yeah I have to I have to start rolling good do hands-free and yeah for sure you're gonna be okay oh yeah okay so what about how the eternal torments of Hell can you tell me your perspective on that how what have you been exploring reading and thinking about with respect to help okay well yeah I guess that you had you haven't published your thing yet but Chris day I listen to his debates and I went into this debate it says like the hell debate I went into it thinking like all this heretics gonna get smashed who sang beliefs and basically annihilation or it's called I'd like the phrase conditional immortality but then listening to those debates and the scriptural case that this guy made it was just so airtight I was just I was convinced so basically I believed in conditional immortality which means that because there's some Bible verses that explicitness and it's a principle that I think that I can point out in Scripture over and over again that the gift of God the gift from God is eternal life but the wages of sin is death so I believe that there's the second death everyone's gonna die the first time in the flesh and then there's gonna be a resurrection resurrection of the just now paradise and then the resurrection of the wicked to destruction and when it says second death to death that means two died i immortality is a gift that only comes to the faithful and even if you're alive immortality of the soul you're alive forever even in hell you're still a lie forever so I don't think that the Bible teaches that there are some verses that in order to sound like they support that but I think if you look at like a bunch of these versions and context you see that that the wicked are like chaff that are just burned out generated you know the books are open and it's just a painful execution and it's lights out for God's enemies okay um does this give you comfort that if you do end up in hell it won't be quite as bad as you thought I don't know really well I would rather be annihilated I guess but and yeah be slowly you know tortured to death or whatever like the Dante's version of hell whatever the heck that I mean but a violent execution doesn't sound good either but sure I mean I think I know where you're going with that lecture I think I'd probably pick that over a journal conscious torment for sure but that's not why I'm I've always believed in the traditional view of health the Catholic view of L like some know Chris dates arguments aren't emotional arguments it's all scriptural but of course private interpretation I know but that's that's where I'm at I really think that that's what the Bible is talking about talks about destruction and yeah the the branches in Christ who are gathered up or who are the fruitless branches that are gathered up and thrown into the fire you know it's like all of these images of things are thrown into a fire in Jim yeah I remember now do you remember the image of God as a bush that's burning you remember that yeah with that well is this yeah do you member the bush I don't think that has anything to do well well it's the same fire it's the same fire same fire and how how would you make that algiere or comparison there because there are two fires there's only one there's only one fire yeah it says God is an all-consuming fire I think James says an all-consuming fire now like he'll burn you know either it's consuming love or it's gonna burn you up but go ahead yeah I mean I don't see the connection there well I mean let's just assume for the moment that you're correct and Total Annihilation awaits the the reprobates okay what implications does that have for your Christianity one of the most important implications that that new understanding of Hell has for your your understanding of Jesus Christ and His Church and salvation and everything else that's important for a Christian well hey life I believe journal conscious torment or conditional immortality that makes absolutely no difference in my day-to-day life it doesn't help me be more or less holy you know or want Jesus more but I do think that it's it's a more it's more just now like it gives me a better picture of God cousin kind of weird to think about that God would want to just do that because I mean if you think about it you know if someone heals a loaf of bread cut off his hand let him go that's a huh that's the harsh penalty but I can say okay cool I could live with that or do a jail sentence for a while and they let you out sure no but if you kill somebody cuz your life will be taken away from you so there's different punishments but if a guy kills somebody but do you think it's just I think a firing squad just can't just cut off his head whatever and beat the crap out of them then kill them whatever maybe but just slowly torture that guy to death and keep alive for six years and torture them in a torture chamber would you what do you think that's just that form of it evil torture chamber type of thing that justice it's not something it's not something that God when I was positively God does not positively will that anyone be lost right it's not it's not that glad to be fully in the sky right right but he would be the one that would be torturing the people in the torture chamber for all eternity so he would have a hand in it you know I mean it would be that he would be that guy he is the reality that they are willfully falling away from because of their pride and self-love he is the one reality which they have turned their back on and their suffering as a consequence of that he does not positively will that but he allows that because we have free will he has to be loved freely and he's not going to make a bunch of love robots and he's not going to rape his creatures he's going to ask his creatures and invite his creatures to freely choose with their free will and their reason to return the love that that same love that he shows to them you know and those of us who say yes we'll be learning how to love here below and forever and all for all eternity we'll be getting looks are closer to that love and becoming integrated with that love and being deify it becoming one with that life of the Trinity so the opposite scenario is not complete annihilation the opposite scenario is falling away from everything that's good and just suffering with everything that is a lack of good and the complete absence of love is the greatest torture probably the greatest tortures of hell is that lack of love right it's not it's not that your balls are in a vise yeah so tortured with hot pincers and you're on fire forever just burning I think that's all very figurative language and it is eternal conscious torment it's not bad it's not because it can't be outer darkness and flames at the same time because it's obvious poetic language if yeah they're to be in that state forever but still use the absence of all things that are good right life is a good thing so if you're still alive you're conscious you're aware that's life you're alive a good thing I think that without God you're unmade and it's your right to absence of all goodness all good things and that's very that's life itself is a good thing yeah the first princess yeah the first principle is life and to be falling away from God is to be primarily to be falling away from life and that's why it's referred to as that's why it's referred to as death because you're falling away from life but that fall that fall unfortunately doesn't end it's an ongoing all and that's what's so horrifying about it really well I think so I know like Hellfire preachers and things like this it's effective in a certain way to kind of make you afraid but you've been in your own selfishness you're like oh yeah I don't want to go there so I'm gonna fake it for Tim like I love God and and it's like how you said God God's not gonna force himself upon you but it's like love me or I want you to choose to love me but he's got a gun to your head or worse than that not even a gun to your head cuz that would be annihilation it's like hearts gonna slowly dip you into this this pot of boiling oil and then I'm going to revive you and then just keep on doing that unless you love me that's that's not free choice that's a threat do this or else I'm gonna cute I'm gonna I'm gonna torture you hurt you unless you love me so I think it's more of how I'm seeing it now is you're missing out on that great good thing like he's that he's the best thing with God and to be alive in God and like you said that growing tour that's that's that's amazing ever okay good that you'd be missing out on or don't choose to reject them God's gonna fail clearly projected life unmake you gone don't get that eternal rewards so that is your eternal punishment meaning that it's there's no way back after a certain part you're gone you missed out on the beat that's out on the the joy and the bliss and all of these things that's where like like irresistible grace not like the Calvinist say it's irresistible grace like can't resist God like he's got your arm getting behind your back kind of irresistible but I think of it as like irresistible like you're starving to death for whatever you're within of your life and then someone puts your favorite meal in front of you and it puts a pile of dung on the other side it's like what are you gonna choose no it's are you gonna choose the dung are you gonna choose the delicious food that's the greatest good that's what his kindness and love is so irresistible and draws you in like you're going to walk that you're gonna go for that not like the threatening type of thing I don't know but I could be wrong yeah but Liam would if you were to enter into full communion with Rome would you abandon your conditional immortality doctrine I would have yeah absolutely I mean I becoming a pop community but then I'm going to forget all this other crap and just okay you know if I if I can trust and verify I know that the Imaginarium Basu they say they are and they actually it's not just men getting together making out so the group taking the votes politics this map I can really see that no it I would drop all of my argument yeah you know all my private interpretation I would just I don't know what I would do because and that's all I was asking you about the the heretics being killed it's not just to try and nail you on Catholicism I really wonder about because if if it's true and there's no salvation outside of the Catholic Church then anyone reaching something gonna be close to hell fishing fishing you know should they be killed no no I mean the Protestants did the same thing John Calvin killed a guy who had a person killed because the street robbed reaching against the Trinity burn you know there are burning people at the stake they were doing the exact same thing the Catholics were trying is that just that justifies it so the real thing I don't know but but the church maybe they didn't make a dogma about it but they were definitely supporting that type of behavior for a long time yeah in many cases if you read the history books in many cases it was a question of treason treason it was a government decision to try these people up for treason and all these councils political politics behind that - nailed down so that we can have solidarity in this kingdom that's going to be Christian now so I mean was it that important that these things got nailed down or did politics get in there and just everything and they got away from what they were supposed to be doing which is the true Catholic and Apostolic Church but they know when they win it became the official state religion did they just get corrupted and it's just like that's some people's argument - I don't know I don't know how to know that that it's as you say and the Magisterium is legit and all that stuff legit I would drop everything and follow him I was no questions I was just good and that's why I fired you so much I love it I want to be like you I grew up but I just I don't know you're not helping could be could be pride it could be whatever but I don't think that it is I just I have to be convinced of it know in my heart that that's what it is but when I look at it I just see I see and I see people I see politics I see things that shouldn't be there you know and like it shouldn't be a vote man help I just don't get that like oh kind of been calling sick that day that 100 guys voting so I guess they'd help take it up I want the security of the Magisterium I want all of that stuff I just missed all seems like you said it's very messy and I just don't understand him like you said it was this organic thing but now it's just very rigid and nailed down now we have all these dogmas and you plus this plus that I mean there's no room for growth out I don't know it seems like at first it was an organic thing you could believe different things to be okay like you didn't have to leave and start burying dogmas or you could believe in it we could all fellowship together and four brothers and we love each other but then you nail it down and you're like okay now there's division you guys are heretics we're gonna burn you but a week before they made that decision they could be brothers I just don't understand you know what I mean yeah so yeah so let's let's try to play a little thought experiment let's say that I love it let's say I belong to a false religion and somehow Christianity is true but Catholicism is not the true true church so what am I missing what can you entice me with so that I would leave this safe what I think is the safety of the church to go outside into the wild rain as the floods are approaching what what can you allure me with to leave me out of the safety of Noah's Ark from my perspective what can you lure me out with it's like for example Oh David you can have a lot more fun as a non-athlete Christian because the morality is not as strict on sexuality or whatever like just try to well like if I was trying to decaf like you yeah and make you a Protestant or just just just just saying look David I'm not a Catholic but I'm a Christian and I think that this is the place to be and you're gonna be better off being like me being a non Catholic Christian even though you don't have a specific label for your form of Christianity but you could say David you can have more of x y&z if you join me in my Christianity because in your Catholicism you're limited by all this rigid man-made politics baloney right so what kind of arguments could you make like what could what do you have it better than what I have in the church what do you have outside of the church that I have that I don't have because I'm inside the church it'd be hard like if I was trying to who are you with Pharisee or but you know which I don't think that I would do it no but you don't think you're inheriting I don't think I don't think yeah but I don't think that you have anything that I don't have that's the thing what I would say is you I can have fellowship with anyone who calling on the name of Christ and knows God and I think has a true a true disciple of Christ whether or not you know whether or not they agree on certain the Trinity offered the Trinity that even the Trinity I think I think if someone is confused on that it's a confusing thing I don't think if you asked Peter hey to find the Trinity he'd be like what are you talking about he would have he would have no clue what you're talking about Peter had no idea I guarantee appalled in either you never even talked about and all the stuff he's just like Oh awesome god I mean I don't think any of those guys could have defined it that's why it took a few hundred years from there nail it down and say well what's going on here um but what I what I think I don't think you're miss anything because I believe that you know God I really do think that about you so I wouldn't worry about you man I think that you I think what you found in Catholicism is beautiful how God's doing I love it I love hearing you talk about it I love it blesses me I mean you have real wisdom I think that God coming through that church and I don't think there's anything wrong with it okay um I want to I want to find out what something which I don't think you're right about everything so I would just say I don't have anything wouldn't have because because believe it or not these all these Protestant churches they're just as not all of them I mean of course there's total apostate funds that are saying you can be a homosexual and whatever and whatever you want to be marry your dog and you can lesbian pastor and be an atheist and still be a go in heaven I don't buy any of that stuff but um I mean the Puritan churches that I was going to there they're just as strict they're just as dogmatic they're just as ha based or more so than even though they're all about grace but at you style of dress or this and that you don't believe in five points of Calvinism the predestination blow-up about your hair taking your foot in your worshipping a false god you're going to help some of the hardcore guys that like that so they're just as dogmatic over what they've come up with themselves in their councils done so I wouldn't say that it's free to man you can get away with more I don't think so I mean that's not what I've heard but um I don't know man how but I mean it but if I was I don't know it's hard to hard to say oh let me just put it to you this way I believe that I am within the safety of Noah's Ark do you think that you are safely within Noah's Ark kiss or no yes okay good I hope so and what reasons do you have to believe that reasons I have to hello it's the gospel you don't try citizen phone that we're a disciple of Christ and that's what puts us in the boat I think but does that mean that just because I need some confession of faith at anytime or got baptized and I can empower the hell I want no that's not a disciple of Christ I think if you are a true disciple of Jesus Christ Eve's that he's the son of God because Paul lays it out in the Corinthians 15 this is the gospel Anita says I Christ died and was raised on the third day then did see the father and then he's coming back I believe all that and then it's the way you have to follow the narrow path there on that path you're in that's why that's my security is just the promises that are found in Scripture about those who believes in Christ lays out the way says people if you love one another as I have loved you have eternal life give others have you as you've been forgiven I think withhold forgiveness if you don't follow the narrow path there's a bunch of ifs ditional you know very % of the time in a and every individual it's a very very rosy and optimistic picture do you share that Catholic point of view in terms of salvation being offered to everyone that thinking to write you know but before that it was not so rosy that's one of the changes but I'd say that just came to mind you know before that it was like no not a baptized member of the Catholic Church that knows no hope of salvation and the Second Vatican careless has no they're you know Protestants are separated brethren and stuff before that it was no foreign mathema if you say grace alone you are Anathem who are gone to hell maybe you believe these things but now it's not the same so that's changed man no it really is a change no it's a change in emphasis oh it's only a change in emphasis right because cursed damned to hell yeah there are brothers though but are they still cursing down to hell they're just our brothers who are cursing them down yeah it's an objective it's an objective you need three criteria to commit mortal sin one is grave matter that can never change so it is a damnable sin to be a heretic right but you also need you also need free consent of you will and full knowledge of your intellect so there's three there are three stages to qualifying for mortal sin they have never changed it's just that the emphasis now is on the the ignorance the invincible ignorance of those who by no fault of their own are born into agenda born into a tradition and the culture which is not Catholic which is anti-catholic by no fault of their own they're born and raised in some sort of Westboro Baptist Church and I think that all gays are going to hell and by no fault of their own that's how they're raised and they don't know the Catholic Church they don't know Jesus Christ but a by no fault of their own they are straying from Jesus Christ and that first criteria criterion is their the objective matter is there they are objectively speaking they're a heretic they have straight to Jesus Christ but they don't have the full knowledge and if they had the full knowledge they would still need to give full consent of their will so it's a question of Education it's a question of reminding once again Jesus Christ reminding us with our feeble minds and with our weak memories and our weak wills reminding us of who he is and who is church's and a lot of people are out of touch with that through no fault of their own that the point that was emphasized by Vatican 2 there's no change it's only a change in emphasis with with the challenging times the church is saying look it's not like it's not like the people that are breaking away now are fully educated Catholics like Luther who consciously took moved away these people are born into a tradition which is now hundreds of years old right very different and I'll buy that but that's what's going on that's still I'm screwed that's born into Catholic family that sucks but anyways I do I think that that sounds awesome and just that God would work on an individual basis the guy no the tribesman out in the middle of nowhere he's never heard of the gospel knows nothing of our gods and his worshipping a tree but he's trying to do the right thing and following the light that God has given to all of us that content stuff I sure as hell hope so that that guy's gonna be ok yeah it's like God is a just judge and we trust and then always gonna be good and always gonna do what is just I don't see how anyone can say that it's just that that did you know mr. probable guy and knows in the rain forest somewhere is gonna just be born have no opportunity to hear the gospel like you said invincible ignorance and then just be like thrown into the you know to you just born for fodder for the fires of hell you know no I've heard that stuff and I think that's total that's not just it's not justice counter to so I sure hope that's yes I do agree with that that's why I'm telling you well then we're the same then you know like yeah I wouldn't I wouldn't say a nontrinitarian is going to hell if he's looking at Scripture looking at things the best he can and he's not trying to say I'm gonna be a heretic but he's just like really convinced or he was born in that culture or something like that like he said or as mine just gets twisted up just dumb like me you know I just I just get twisted up in this stuff and I'm really thinking about it and I really want to do what's right but this right so how can I go against my conscience and do it because in the Bible it says if you go against your conscience even if it's not sin what you're doing and you're not sure of it and you do it anyways it's sin for you see that's like a subjective thing so that's tricky and someone like me is dumb I'll just tie myself up for not saying well is it or isn't it and I just back away you know that's why I'm kind of backing off the I'm gonna the steps you know think with the Catholic Church I just don't know I don't know how can I can jump in but I don't know about anything so yeah do you think that God would incarnate and build a church and then promise that it's better that he goes away and sends his Holy Spirit and that that Holy Spirit would lead his church into all truth do you think that that is going to play out in such a way that we do not have access to the essential saving truths or do you think that on the contrary that God has a plan for that where the Holy Spirit leading is church into all truth entails a certain guarantee a certain certitude that we can have that we have found the Church of Christ and that we can join the Church of Christ and that we can obey the Church of Christ and that we can have that security do you which of those two scenarios sounds more likely based on what you read about the Ascension of Jesus Christ into heaven well I absolutely think that we would have to have access to that or I mean we're screwed say - I'm not going to leave you orphans yeah we have the Holy Spirit but that's just the thing no and he said the Holy Spirit would lead truth because you know that's what maybe doubting the Protestant thing in the end with is because if they all have the Holy Spirit nobody who agrees on anything it's supposed to be where's the unity where's this holy where's this apostolic Catholic need reversal truth yeah we'd have to have access to it but that could be interpreted another way name and think that yes of course and what did he say when he ascended he said you know the the Great Commission Matthew 28 or whatever when he says go baptize all nations keep them to observe what I've commanded oh and baptize them until I come back basically him butchering that but you know that was the Great Commission so I'm saying prove that those guys carried out their mission they went and taught people about Christ taught them the words of Christ baptized them and they baptized other people may be baptized other people and it just spread worldwide okay I'm up for a bunch of extra stupid stuff and that doctrines and churches and divisions formed after that but I think that that issue of saving truth no no Jesus crisis and his message and of being obedient to him which is why you know the scriptures are so important they're important they're not Authority I'm not saying it but I mean it was a good good deal that they wrote their stuff down and passed it around so that we can and obey the teacher prize that way I think that job very clear in the Gospels that it's faith and obedience to very simple commands the commands of love Jesus summed up he said this is what I command you they love one another as I have loved you that you be one as the father and I are one you are to be one I'm going to be in the father and I'm going to be you and we're all just this big oneness thing this body Oddie of believers family I think that you can have that family with or without that rigid structure or institutional idea of church like what your but I think I think what you're saying the idea of what a church is as an organization or an institutional thing I think in a familial way I can spread the same way and we're just meeting in houses and breaking bread together and loving on each other I think that that's just that gives me just as much you know like you look and act that's what you see cuz people don't know the people's house and Sharon jeez if they believe oh my gosh holy spirit came baptized and bam there's a church in that guy's house now and they all meet together and not I mean okay let me ask you a question and it's spreading of it okay let me ask you a question you've mentioned during this interview and in other talks we've had that you said I'm tied up in not to get confused about doctrine and I go back and forth and you know you certain you have a certain level of anxiety when it comes to ecclesiology where's the true church and what are the true doctrines and this sort of thing okay I don't have that I have I have peace and I have comfort and I have the reassurance just by just by virtue of the fact of being a Catholic and belonging to the body of Christ I have a lot of peace joy I'm very calm and serene and what I believe I'm not twisted up in knots even with local or sort of contemporary events like when Pope Francis I'm completely calm and tranquil in the face of all that makes sort of all the nonsense people getting frost up over Pope Francis on the right or those on the Left who think he's not left enough whatever I have a tranquility and a peace because I belong to the Church of Christ you don't seem to have that so I want you to address this disparity between our two positions what is what can you explain that we're gonna have to do a party man I just got to the house oh boy here give me a boy get my can I bring my boy sure are you doing nice to see you nice to meet you what's your name haisa very nice to meet you how old are you wow you're a big boy for six he is a big boy yeah how tall are you Matthew I'm about six foot and how old is åsa he is six six foot well how tall how tall about four feet or so Wow big kid man he's a kid in the hypocenter they said ASA who's who do you love who loves you the most oh boom upset baby good answer that's right you believe in Jesus they said yeah Oh rats that's nice that's beautiful man so listen to wrap up I'm gonna just give you the last word if you want to say something or say say the final word or a little prayer whatever comes to mind and we'll wrap up like that okay and I can answer your question really quickly I was tied up in knots or because I was looking to men to be able to tell me what the truth is w

CVS Live Guest - 2020-01-24 - Nikola Krcic

so we are live I'm here with my friend Nick Chris ik if you want to introduce yourself Nick my name is Nick Korsak and how are you how are you doing I know I've had you on my pre-recorded show and it's always nice seeing you in the comments it's nice chatting with you once in a while on the phone what did you want to talk about with me here today well my favorite topic anything to do with the god especially you know it's a weird thing to me is I I'm not I'm not around many people I I don't know I won't take away the few that are there like my wife of course she know and I have my cousin Peter he likes to talk and my brother likes to talk about God as well and I have one cousin Johnny right but other than that like I am it's hard to find people that are they hold interested or that are willing to even talk about God it's it's weird a lot of people get like oh that's kind of private you know or that's kind of I don't know I you know I don't understand why you got to that point but that's kind of where it is with most people you know it's almost like your religion is just private you know let's not talk about it so yeah it's kind of weird to me yeah well I mean I all I all I really ever want to talk about is God religion and the Oder extreme you know philosophy ideas and stuff like that but most people are mired in politics and you know pop culture stuff like that I am really not interested I can enjoy you know I can enjoy conversations about anything as long as the person is excited but I don't have a lot to contribute it unless it's about first things and God and you know morality and stuff like that but I just don't have a lot to contribute I can contribute from my angle but my angle is always the same angle and it tends to be a bit of a conversation killer if you're bringing in the Catholic perspective right you don't you find mm-hmm I agree it's funny I'm kind of meeting new people too I'm kind of awkward because I don't I don't find interesting what most people talk about you know I mean most people you know like they talk about sports or they'll talk about movies or to talk about and again I could I mean I could talk about that stuff but only very little you know what I mean it's like and there so I'm kind of not the best you know person to talk to if I'm first meeting you it's very short very short you know yeah so maybe I'm the awkward one I don't know but I like to talk about the important stuff you know the stuff stuff that matters but yes so what even thinking about or what do you been praying about what do you been reading about what are you excited about with your faith journey these days I've been doing I've been enjoying the praying for everybody that needs it and not myself like I've almost been excluding myself totally you know and to me that's been that's been exciting almost like God is gave me the grace to be you know selfless and you know and not think about myself but I'm too busy thinking about whoever needs and whoever's having problems right now or trouble to remember to pray for them and I've been doing a lot of praying and and it's unbelievable how how we don't know and see what happens when we pray but if we knew I believe none of us would ever let one hour go by without praying you know I would say not even not even 10 minutes but but but I believe that it is like it's like the most important the most important and and and and the only way it's like if I try to call you without a cell phone it won't work right and this is and prayer is our cell phone directly to to the body of Christ so absolutely I mean I we're told to pray without ceasing to pray constantly and I'm always praying not I'm not praying well but to the capacity that I'm able to pray I'm always praying I'm always thinking about God and because I don't need to worry about God's salvation I tend to think about the salvation of myself and those who are close to me in space or in time and in any other way and so it's it's just a natural thing when you know when you know what ultimate reality is in terms of salvation history and our place in salvation history even though it's a bit vague and fuzzy and we see darkly as in a broken mirror as st. Paul says we we live in the obscurity of faith but we have at least we have the gift of faith even if we just have a small spark or a little tiny flame we can focus on that we can begin with that and we can start our journey toward toward God and toward heaven and here in this fallen world it's not easy there's lots of opposition I'm always surprised when people oppose such wholesome teachings for example when it comes to the issue of life I mean there's a lot of talk now with Trump doing his talk at the March for Life I'm just surprised that everyone isn't pro-life I just I don't understand how you could not be a pro-life but I'm very happy and excited that Donald Trump spoke at the March for Life what did you make of that not that we want to talk about politics but what did you make of that just writing it I actually I didn't see it I missed it I didn't see it yeah well it was a it was a nice it was a nice speech to life and every life is precious and he actually I don't know if he slipped up or if he he said it on purpose but he said that every human life is divine I think that might be putting a little bit in extreme terms but maybe there was a little confusion when he said that or maybe maybe he's really channeling something deep and mystical about divination and theosis and maybe he's been reading up a little bit on mystical Christianity but I'm not sure about that right right right yeah I missed it I missed this so I'm just too long for for some reason I never was and I'm not you know but my point was with the Catholic teachings are so wholesome and they're so universally valid across space and time with the Ten Commandments with the principles of life and you know the principles of freedom and even you know more sophisticated principles like the principle of subsidiarity in governance I think these are principles that stand withstand the test of time and that are that are good and universally valid and that could be appreciated so I'm just I'm always surprised when people have alternative points of view which fly in the face of well-established Catholic principles but that's maybe that's just me and maybe everyone maybe everyone with their worldview has their cherished set of principle dogmas axioms and I'm sure that's that's what it counts for a lot of the bickering on social media people do have a point of view and they like to you know suggest it I guess that's one word we could use suggest it to those around them that it's the best point of view and certainly you and I are guilty of that we think that our point of view our Catholic point of view is the best point of view right right right right right what do you think about so okay what do you think about abortion when it comes to the whole the big picture like for example I was trying to make sense of all of it like I pray and believe and think that those souls go straight into the arms of God and then I try to make sense of well what's Satan's agenda on this if they're shooting straight to heaven I'm like hmm I wonder what then he's getting out of it and then all that came to mind was God has a plan you know for each and every one of us and when when that child is aborted they couldn't they couldn't go out go through with their plan right so that just takes away our me saying it's happy to take anything away from God so he's happy to just take that away and that pleases him even though if that soul of that you know the baby goes straight into the arms of God into heaven what do you think about it yeah I mean I trust in the mercy of God so I don't worry about I don't really worry about anyone's salvation I mean the the extent that I worry about it really is just to pray for those who are still making their decision like they're still alive today but you know I don't worry about those who are already dead whether they were innocent babies in the womb or whether they were you know nasty characters from history like Hitler or whatever I don't worry about it but I trust in the mercy of God but everything everything is glorifying God and everything that happens everything that happens God allows to happen either he positively ordains it or he allows it so Satan is constantly chuckling to himself with all his little mini victories but he's also wincing in pain because when he really steps back and looks at what's happening and in the in the war it might might seem like he's winning a few skirmishes here and there but in the big picture he's always losing he's always serving God's will this is the most frustrating thing about being the enemy of God is that it's a lose-lose situation and you can psychologically fool yourself in the short term into thinking yeah I got one over on God and I hurt one of his children but if you you know if you're an enemy of God and you think that way in the back of your mind always is that idea that gods a winner I'm a loser and everything I do is serving God's plan and really this is a this is a futile battle I'm a loser you know so there's a very thin and false happiness that accompanies all of the enemies of Christ in this church and people are aware of that to greater and lesser extents obviously and in the case of Satan I think he is acutely aware of it and I think he's suffering suffering a lot with every so-called victory that he that he has there's always a price to be paid with every victory he personally pays a price every time but he's just compulsively and hatefully harming others and in the process harming himself because he can't help himself he's not he doesn't have the freedom that we have to repent him to go to go back to God so it's it's tragic on so many levels and it's like one of those fractal images where it's just at the pattern within the pattern within the pattern within the pattern and if you look at abuse in this world like parent to child child to grandchild and you see the way that sexual abuse for example is passed on in this habitual pattern because people want to heal those wounds here in this fallen world among humans we have a chance to heal but Satan and his demons they don't have a chance to heal but they're still caught in that fractal image where it's the pattern within the pattern within the pattern and they just can't get out they can't get healing they can't get us they can't get satisfaction because ultimately only God satisfies and they know that and so it's it's a horrible horrible situation or you know you know well um I I kind of feel like therefore I kind of see it like that for like um we're saying thinks he's getting somewhere even in the church you know if there was a few you know priests or even Pope that let's say they had an evil agenda or whatever like he thinks he's actually getting some we're forgetting I guess God has God is in control you know um that actually brings me to a point that I wanted to mention okay what what do you think about the overall cuz you you're familiar with seed of accont ISM and all that so so what do you think about Vatican 2 do you think there's things there that these people these Cedarburg contests are veering away from the church and all this do you think there's something there not that their position is correct but more that is there something there since Vatican 2 that some evil has crept up and twisted things around and and the devil thinks he's getting somewhere right now and all that but God is still in control he's just allowing this to play out and like for example the Third Secret of fátima and all that ties in like what do you think about all that as a whole is there something there well I mean there's plenty of opportunity for those who want to stumble to stumble I mean this is why we refer to Jesus Christ as the stumbling stone and like I think about the Scriptures like there's plenty you there's plenty of fodder in the scriptures to act as stumbling stones if you want to if you want to stumble you can stumble right and the same thing with the ecumenical councils and they are but they are one of the manifestations one of the four manifestations of the church's infallibility ecumenical councils so I submit to the Second Vatican Council I was just reading the documents today they're beautiful documents do they contain ambiguities because of the politics left-right and all that nonsense yeah of course there are ambiguities there but it God is able in His infinite wisdom and power to communicate the essential saving truths and to clarify essential saving truths through through the midst of all of that left-right politics nonsense which colors everything right in our at least in our contemporary world and since the certainly since the 50s and 60s and so yeah I see the I see the ecumenical councils as divinely protected from teaching error concerning faith in morals and I was just reading some of the documents today and I have always found them beautiful and edifying and very traditional obviously because we can't break with tradition that's that's what the church is the church is in defective alit will never break from tradition if it does then it's not a church so yeah I think there's plenty of fodder there if you want to read into the ambiguity and start a little fight with with the so called Novus Ordo Church you're free to do that that's the danger that's the danger of having free will is that you are free to make a fool of yourself and you are free to abandon Jesus Christ and His Church and you are free to call that movement the Catholic Church if you want to there plenty of people starting different religions and they're attaching the word Catholic to it right so I really there's nothing new Under the Sun there every ecumenical council had heretics before during and after the council that were claiming that they were holier than the Catholic Church and that they're they represent the one true religion the one true church so you can I did a meta at the pros and cons of set of account ISM if you haven't heard you can go and listen to it but it talks about one or two examples of different heresies for each of the ecumenical councils and how they thought them and only them thought that they were you know I love the video man that even the music you put to it was just I I love that one nothing good that was good that was really good so that's my main point that's my main point that there's nothing new Under the Sun if you want a stumble go ahead and stumble and you won't be the first you won't be the last and God will be waiting there for you to repent and come back to my it's just that simple it's there's nothing complicated what do you think about the Third Secret of fátima was there something there do you believe we've gotten them at the the right message or has ours is still hidden I don't know I don't really care I mean I trust the church and I'm not obsessed with any private revelation I put public revelation number one and a private revelation if it inspires me and I defies me as you know Lord and Fatima and de Guadalupe do and different you know all the approved apparitions do inspire make my faith and they do edify me and so I draw on whatever edifies me and I ignore whatever is controversial and conspiracy theories that are swirling around particularly in the Third Secret of fátima I just completely ignore it because I know that that's how Satan likes to get people in broiled in distraction I know that I know that some experience so just don't get embroiled I mean if you if you if there's something that's obviously Catholic in any private revelation that's been approved by the church run with it be inspired by it and let your faith be be built up by it otherwise if there's any doubt if there's any sort of hint that maybe this is a conspiracy theory I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole that's my personal opinion we got it yeah okay I when when you were they were thought that made me think of a question for you when you were when you still believed in evolution and you heard the anti-evolutionists you know did you think did you look at that as a conspiracy theory for the moment I never believed in evolution even as an atheist I never believed in it I just I just believed I just believed that it was the overwhelming consensus of natural science and isn't that amusing and isn't perplexing and I didn't feel compelled to commit to that I didn't feel compelled to say well okay it's the consensus therefore I have to believe it no I'm free I even as an atheist I knew that I was free and I distinctly remember being at a party in university when I was young and talking with friends and they were talking about how we evolved from apes and I said well I don't believe that you know and they all paused and looked at me like I was an ape but I just I didn't subscribe to it I mean that's the I knew that it was the dominant hypothesis or the dominant story but I just didn't have any good reason to buy it I mean I didn't have like oh I didn't I did I hadn't examined the evidence and concluded that I must believe it right and I'm not a biologist I was studying physics and I certainly didn't want to believe it it's not something I was ever predisposed to believe like oh goody I just you know I my ancestors are brutes it never it never ever appealed to me so I was I would know I would say that I never believed in evolution I don't know how many people today can say that especially atheists but that was the case for me no you could add me on the list too we used to make fun of it in my household I remember since you know I was five years old and my older brother hearing that and I was laughing about it not that I knew too much when I was five but what I'm saying is we never believed that in the house you know what I mean it is funny it was always funny yeah the atheists were something to laugh at for us and the evolutionists or something to laugh at for us always though yeah so what other related topics do you want to talk about because I know a lot of people since I sort of came out of the closet as a young earth creationist is that I did subscribe to that I did fully endorse back in June or July of this year I fully endorse the young Earth Creationism as you know and a lot of people come forward and say well then you must believe in the firmament and the you know the fixed lights in the Stars and you know in a sky and the waters above and the flat earth and this and that the other thing and a GOG o centrism and everything else so are there any related topics that you want to explore and and to question me about yeah yeah overall I just believe that there is a lot that we don't fully understand and I've learned my learned we can't trust the be the people in charge the scientists what they say really we can't really trust them too much um you know starting by evolution you look and you know they'll tell you evolution is a fact right but so I feel like there's a lot of that I feel like at the end of the day we don't know they don't know exactly how this or how this earth works they don't know you know they don't understand it as much as they claim to understand it right they don't ascend when it comes to the firmament yeah I believe there's a there is a firmament but what is it exactly you know what I mean like like we don't know but here's here's my belief I believe that the stars and the Sun and the moon that we see is not as far as they say it is distance wise I believe it's a lot closer and and I at the end of the day I just believe in trust what God says right so it's kind of like I kind of will search the Scriptures more for it though I know there could be error in my personal interpretation but I do I do see that something something is going on - where - where either we're not being told it's being hidden or they simply don't know you know they don't know and you know they're acting like they know or whatever but but it's kind of like we don't know exactly what what this earth is how it looks or I mean you know like fully it's funny it I kind of don't know where to start because it gets kind of there's a you gotta touch on a lot of ends - to explain it correctly right so I'm not gonna go into the whole thing here right but at the end of the day I say that everything we see in the sky is this appears to be smaller smaller than the earth the earth is a earth is is its it it's it's the only land out there it's the only you know um terra firma is the word they use like the stars we see in the sky is not terra firma that you could kind of go land on it'll be more to how the bible explains them and i think it's like in a way angelic form or something but this is my belief you know and and i think the earth is it it's almost like oh if you want to look at it as a realm the earth is a realm this is all that is and you know it's not it's not an empty vastness of space with all kinds of stuff and there's nothing bigger than the earth except God as is my belief so I mean I know that's a whole other topic you know and whatever but that that's what I believe and are you open with that cuz I'm sure if you're open with it you're gonna get mocked and ridiculed even more than young earth creationists that's right I kind of don't like to be you know too open about it because I I know what happens I bye I was there I was I was I was on the other side and you know and I heard somebody saying Flat Earth it's like your brain does some it rejects it right away it's almost like hearing the sky is purple or you know it's like what the grass is black you know the gray it's like what it's an instant rejection but it's crazy when you when you look into the evidence here's all I've come to see Satan is at work and he's been working hard for a long time and he's working through the people that love money love fame love power okay so now if we now we can start to see who those people are you know what I mean like and and it's like it's so clear that Saints been working on the deception many deceptions for a long time and I feel like he's guiding into those you know the top the top dogs the top guys from scientists to hope whoever else but but at the end of the day it just brought me closer to God I trust God completely and I kind of don't I don't believe I'm all of what the scientists say and and what modern science says you know but but I won't get into it because it's it's it takes a while to see but the evidence the evidence actually it's it's insane the evidence is it matches what Ric actually you know like the Sun in the moon they look to be the same size um probably because they really are the same size now this is again my opinion and somebody hearing this could write me off as an idiot if you'd like you know what I mean but when you look at the evidence you'll be shocked like either jumping right into geocentrism you know it's like you look into the evidence it shows that this world is a geocentric world okay all the evidence actually says that it's all the theories that kind of don't say it but the evidence and the actual science experiments really say this place is not moving it's not spinning twirling swirling none of that's going on it's actually stationary and all the actual experiments said that you know so so so if one could believe that then it's kind of like okay well but nASA has pictures of the earth spinning right okay so it's kind of like you kind of got to see that that there's just some deception going on and that's all I could tell you and and and and I don't want to send no I I don't like to send nobody down no no conspiracy rabbit holes because at the end of the day it's not worth it we will know what we're supposed to know God will give us what we're supposed to know but I believe that there's a there's a deeper reason it's kind of like how evolution when someone believes in evolution it kind of like they don't realize how it pulls you away from God right evolution you start this discrediting the Bible just a little bit and you start giving your trust within science just a little more the white people don't see that happening but that's what's happening it's kind of goes same with the heliocentric model in a way they have told us they've gone into space and all they see is the blackness of space when the bible kind of actually says right above these closed stars and the closed sun and moon' all within the firmament it's all God after that it's all heaven that's his territory you know and it's kind of like so what does that do the heliocentric model you kind of put your trust more in NASA and in in modern science and then I said well we don't see God so and then it puts God so far away almost like imaginary you know you gotta just really imagine just you know to picture God somewhere we don't know where he is you know but within a geocentric model but but I feel the geocentric don't have the distance of the stars right you just put a firmament there and all everything is roughly the same distance away okay and right above that is our Lord our Lord's throne you know and and and it's funny when you look in the Bible I mean it does make it pretty clear the firmament is it's translated to a a molten mirror it says hard it's hard it's firm but that's where the word firmament comes from right it I mean it gets pretty specific you know it says it's it's it's like a mirror and a molten hard mirror and and when you start looking into those you're kind of like wow it kind of gets to you a little bit you know and makes you makes you think deep but but yeah but that's I mean I I believe the earth and the universe is about seven eight thousand years old and that's that seems ridiculous to 99.9% of humans walking the earth today but I would be open to geocentrism I don't happen to believe it but I'm open to it and the next you know the next step from that would be some sort of firmament and a flat earth and all that I'm not buying any of that yet but I haven't looked into it I'm open to everything I do you know I did I did interview Flat Earth run or did you listen to that episode oh I don't think so I don't think so you can check you know he painted a nice picture of the firmament and how Jesus is right above right above us so close and it's a it's that kind of proximity that attracts me to the you know this whole this whole vision that you have I don't buy it but I mean I haven't looked into it either yes it you've sent me lots of stuff I just haven't had time to look at it because I'm not interested if you said if you sent me stuff that I'm more interested in I would have looked into it by now but I'm just not that interested but I'm glad that some people are going down that rabbit hole as you say and you know I encourage you to follow the truth wherever it leads and I don't know how I don't know what sort of theological or Magisterial weight you have behind your geocentrism and behind your firmament stuff I mean obviously there are certain passages and scriptures that you draw on for for any of these theories but I'm not as motivated as I was with the young Earth Creationism so I'm just being honest with you I appreciate your the path you're going down but I'm just not there with you but you know anything could happen obviously I'm open I am very open I think I'm more open-minded than 99.9% of humans walking the earth today just because I put God first and whatever reality is I mean that's what it is I mean I have very little faith in you know secular science I have very little faith in it I think that there's you know we can make nice toys and gadgets and communication devices and stuff like that and that's all real and you know I studied quantum physics at university I have my name on a published paper in a reviewed journal a respectable quantum electronics journal I have experience with hard science I've worked at the Canadian Space Agency I've worked in hard science I respect hard science but I don't have a lot of faith in the politics that's and and the philosophy a bad philosophy that's connected with secular science I just don't have a lot of faith in it because we can be blinded by our by our assumptions and by our axiomatic fundamental positions that we take philosophically and then we interpret everything all of the data we always interpret all the data in a way that conforms with those fundamental assumptions so we're all guilty of that but once you become a monotheistic God first then that set of axioms is more wholesome and it's more well grounded and as Jesus Christ said if you don't build on the rock you're building on shifting sad you're doomed your house is doomed to fall right yeah yeah yep yep oh my they're so funny I thought you were a geocentric star you do you believe in the heliocentric model or or what well I never believed in evolution and I don't have I don't have a strong belief in the heliocentric model I mean I'm I have to admit that I do want to believe in Geo centuries and I just haven't looked into it right okay yeah I would prefer obviously I would prefer Geo centuries and I think it makes more sense from a Christian perspective it makes more sense right Emily am i excited about it a little bit am I excited enough to look into it not really I mean I looked at a couple of videos by that Catholic geo centrist who's very popular right now do you Catholic geo centrist I mean besides Robertson Janice Robertson Janice I was in that okay yep yep oh yeah and it's a that's funny I applaud him for shooting for that you know but it's funny how we were talking about the Flat Earth he hates the flatter that's so funny and and and and it's so funny here here's here's here's here's my here's my opinion on why he hates the flattered so much is because it's simple is because he has at least the scientific method you know geocentrism is a scientific method right and he wants to hold on to that the same way evolutionists want to hold on to the you know evolution theory because it's a scientific method they feel it makes them feel a little more like they're on the right side I guess you know what I mean and that's that's what I believe you know it's like that that Catholic that that believes in evolution you know he just feels better holding on to evolution because because of all the scientists that's what they say you know so yeah I am certainly not afraid to be considered a weirdo like I mean if I come to believe GOC the NGO centrist and that'll be a very easy pill to swallow for me very very easy the firmament and the Flat Earth that's gonna be I'm gonna be phoning you up right away and like oh my god this is exciting that would be next level that would be next level but I mean it is a nice idea I mean to you have that proximity with Jesus and Mary who are in the flesh and how far how far up do you think the dome is the firmament you know that I can't say I can't say I asked for this actual distance I I don't know I don't know but I'll tell you all the evidence kind of says this and the Bible the Bible kind of makes it pretty clear when you look into job and you look but here's the thing I hate the words flat earth I hate them words because I was there I know what that those two words do and I know what happens when somebody says they believe in a flat earth look at this right I mean it's like an instant reaction but I even know I could even see why their reaction comes about when you understand we were taught this our whole life right I mean the earth is around just like the grass is green this is what we've been taught right but when you actually see that there's a room there's room there for a full-out blown deception and no I'm not saying every worker at NASA is in on it you know to make a small analogy if if if McDonald's if McDonald's was poisoning us does that mean all of the workers are in on it no it's the ones that are just preparing the food right okay this would be the same method if when it comes to if NASA's in on anything it's just the top dogs the rest are working off of a a computer right a computer data and the computer tells them what reality is in a way you know what I mean you know the when they're told light-years are real thing well then guess what they believe light-years are a real thing you know what I mean but um but when you see there's X room for a deception there and it could be done and saying is that good you know here's all I want to say I don't care about flattered thought only I don't like them words but here's what I believe this place the devil is working hard to take anything away from us and our home here the way it'll Lord made this place is is is beautiful and he even wants to take that away so if he can he will you know and this place is not what we're being told from the size of the shape the angles from where we come from from where we're going when we die all of that has been sayings been working to take away from God so that's what I see so I that that's why that's why I trust God so much and it's hard for me to believe what what modern science says over all you know for sure so yeah I think we need to be skeptical I mean I have a lot of education in physics and that obviously is making it seem very unlikely that you know geocentrism or the firmament or whatever you want to call it flatter if any of that is true but I mean I had like I said I'm open and you know I'm open minded and I don't think you're a weirdo I mean if anything I sorta did it if anything I sort of envy the proximity that you have meaning I'm always looking for proximity but when you're speaking of not NASA it kind of reminded me of an old friend of mine Matt math Matthew of Boylan Matt power land you know of him he has no the Nassau Channel he's a stand-up comedian and an actor from Canada he moved down to the States but he's got a popular flat earth movement he claims to have pioneered the Flat Earth movement and there's lots of bickering in that community and he you know he admits to being a stand-up comedian an actor and an entertainer but he seems to also believe in Flat Earth and chemtrails and all this sort of thing and he he talked to these and claims to have worked for now so that he's the one that painted what looks like the globe image of the years the painting and you can check him out math power land or the Nassau channel or Matt Boylan you can look him up he was supposed to blown like he was supposed to come on my show but he hasn't contacted me actually he unfriended me on Facebook I'm not sure why you're gonna have to reach out to him and find out why but yeah there are a lot of conspiracy theories out there and there's a lot of disinformation and you have to be aware that Satan can deceive us but he can also deceive us by drawing us into wacky and weird conspiracy theories I wanna see right I want you to be very cautious be very cautious about that that angle of satan to like take you dude that's right no I'm actually they cut you off because I have to say this I'm actually done with the conspiracy theories right and it's like they're actually the worst they're worse because it puts this paranoia and fear in people right and this is what God saved me from when I told you I said that prayer yeah right okay no weapons formed against us will prosper what I was in the eight-month conspiracy theories on right okay and he said and I was so full of fear and paranoia and everybody is out to get me in and it's so funny though though there could be so much truth to that it don't matter because when you trust in God it who cares right who cares about who's after you or what's going on or what's the it's like when you trust God you no longer fear right and it's like so so I definitely don't recommend anybody to start searching conspiracy theories or or anything like that my point was when you look at the actual evidence I said reality and actual science experiment says something other than the heliocentric model and that's all I want to say because you know this Flat Earth thing it cause a lot of problems there's been divorces there's been literally you know because one person has discovered this truth that the earth is not what we're being told while the other has the you know I has that oh my god my husband my wife has gone mad you know what I mean and so it's like so I be where anybody from it and and and and and all it did for me to realize that this place could be not what we're being told right from spinning to the shape to the size to the distance of the stars to what they are to again where we came from and what all of that you know it's like this this this glass kind of shattered and I could see clear and all I could see is the Lord and they're kind of and to trust him through no matter what no matter what and it's it's the bet that's the best feeling in the world and like you know that somewhere where you could like you know saw where you get it lay down comfortably at night knowing you trust the Lord the most over everything it's that's a it's a very special and it's an amazing thing to have and and I I pray for anybody and everybody to have that you know it really is absolutely I mean that's that's my focus as well I mean that's why I don't get too excited about the evolutionists coming at me or you know because I've hosted this talk today they're gonna say uh we were right you're you're a wackjob you believe in the four-minute firmament and all that sort of thing but I mean I don't I don't fear any of that ridicule or disdain from from those who are enemies of Christ and His Church I mean it's it's like I've said once you know once you know who and what God is and once you know you have a relationship with him I mean you welcome suffering you welcome death you welcome and ridiculous or stained you welcome it whatever comes from God's hand and he's allowing everything the good the bad the ugly and everything in between if he doesn't positively ordained it he's allowing it for the highest good for your highest good and for my highest good how can you orchestrate it so that everything that happens is optimized not just for me not just for you not just for our loved ones not just for our enemies but for every human that ever lived how can he dynamically optimize everything to be perfectly maximally optimized for our own individual salvation and eternal happiness how can he do that we have no idea but we just need to trust that he's omnipotent he's infinitely wise and infinitely merciful infinitely just and he can do it I mean it's it's mind-boggling you know the Atheist can laugh but we'll we'll have the last laugh when we're up in heaven and we're enjoying God's God's life and hopefully the Atheist will be there with us right right right right right um to change the topic quick um what do you think have you ever read any of the Book of Enoch and do you know of any early church fathers if they believed then encoded The Book of Enoch I know I met a scholar who was specializing in the Book of Enoch I haven't read it I am interested in it because my guest but earth runner mentioned it he said I would really enjoy it because of the references to Noah and I'm a big fan of Noah and so I'm interested in reading it I don't think I even have it on my Kindle yet but I will after this interview I'll make a point of acquiring maybe a PDF copies slap it on my Kindle and look into it but what what what is it about the Book of Enoch that you think I might find interesting other than all the talk of Noah on my my favorite patriarch Oh verifies about the firmament the stars what they are exactly how they work how the Sun Moon and stars work how everything everything it verifies and totally slams you know the heliocentric model and throws it in the garbage and says it's not real it tells us how exactly movements of the Sun of the Moon of everything and here's the thing if that book is not expired well then who cares what it says right but then I heard early church fathers there was a ton of them that believed in the Book of Enoch so that kind of shocked me and I just heard that a few days ago so I was curious if you knew about it or not no I'm not aware of that I'm gonna look into it that's the kind of thing I'm interested to look into but certainly just because it's not inspired doesn't mean it we should ignore it and like I said a Catholic scholar that I know is he's making his whole PhD just on the book of you know and there are thousands of scholars who are doing just that so we have to take it seriously and all all of the early texts in and around Chris the Christian early Christian movement we have to take them seriously because they do can they do contain some part of the Catholic truth right to one extent I don't know god only knows yeah yeah it tells us what the stars are he it he gives name for the CERN stars which ones are in charge there cuz they what he says in that book is their their their angelic their in in angelic form their angels and so and it's so funny when you man when you grab that telescope and you look at these stars they kind of looking at nothing like um of the images that were that are in our textbooks and in our science books and that are on the NASA's website so that's just and that's just another thing you know another red flag there but but it's it's it's pretty amazing and that that book I haven't read the whole thing but but what I did read it totally supports of the dominant firm all um you know the firmament the dome all of that it totally you know so it's very specific and in detail you know I mean I I don't know if it's a Catholic doctrine or not but I do believe that all of the material universe is governed and managed by angels so that every spin of every quirk in the universe is being managed and governed by angels I think one angel could do the whole material universe just because they they move at the speed of thought and they can they can accomplish the management of every molecule in the universe from beginning to end but it might be a team of angels or you know different shifting teams of angels I don't have any source to support my belief but I do believe that angels obviously are involved in doing God's work of sustaining the entire unit so the material the animate and inanimate parts of this material world like even our fleshy bodies I think they're angels involved in governing what the you know the quantum scientists are examining and they think it's some cold dead fundamental particles but I think that they're alive with the life of God and the the instructions of God to maintain in his providence the well-ordered universe that we live in which allows science to take place in the first place so I think we're gonna be blown away at the final judgement when we see how God's world works and you're you know you're putting yourself out on the limb by going a little bit further up and I am willing to go right now but it's not nearly as wacky and weird as the ultimate reality actually is at the final judgment we're gonna say you know Nick's ideas were a little bit strange but not too strange compared to the actual reality the actual reality is way more fabulous way more interesting and way more wacky and weird from our mundane perspective because we are blinded by sin were blinded by Satan and his demons and Satan and his demons don't want us to appreciate the wonder of God's creation and the wonder of the natural world he wants to dumb it down into something boring something predictable and something where God's not involved you know at all so I think I think the complete opposite is the case I think that God is intimately involved in everything and we're gonna get to see that at the final judgment that's that's my hunch I don't have Magisterial documents to back me up I mean I could look into it and see if the fathers talk about this sort of thing but I know that in the Middle Ages they talked about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin but I have no idea if that's if that's a true anecdote or if that's just sort of a mockery of the Catholic theologians at that time all right all right probably a microbrew knows but do you do you believe in that Giants were on this earth the way the Bible says and if so what do you think what do you know or do you believe in Giants ed oh sure why not I have no problem with that whatsoever I mean I I firmly believe in that in the longevity of the pre-flood patriarchs is that with the calls I have absolutely no doubt about that I mean if it turns out not to be the case that's fine you know God can tell me you know at the final judgement if that was not the case if that was some sort of colorful exaggeration in Scripture that's fine but I happen to believe I happen to believe in the longevity of you know Adam and Eve and those patriarchs major export before the flood and I believe in you know I take a lot of Genesis a lot more literally than most people do as you know and if I'm wrong that's fine I mean I'm not gonna go to hell because I took the Bible too literally right right right right and it's money of course there are some things that we shouldn't take the Bible literally say later but I'm sorry Genesis is more of a literal account like you know what I mean it really is I mean so it's kind of like and yeah yeah I guess I was gonna touch on something but I guess I'll leave that alone but anyways I was just gonna say yeah definitely I believe in the Tower of Babel and the you know that was literal giants were literal you know all of that so and it's and it just fits right in I mean look how funny there's a passage at the end at the end of the world in Revelation he says God is gonna peel the sky back like a scroll right I mean if that passage don't fit the firmament I mean I don't know what does you know what I mean like it you know and and all the stars are gonna fall to the earth as um like of a fig tree right so you picture the figs falling from a tree right that the stars will fall from heaven it says to the earth like that of a fig tree so it's kind of like right the figs are smaller than the tree and that I mean and and and and not just that I mean uh okay but that's a book of Revelation fine right there's there's of course some things that are poetic or more what's the word I'm looking for but I'm not literally allegorical and stuff but when you go to Genesis Genesis job kinda tells us how this place is and I think it's God talking but in the book of Job he tells us and it's funny I mean he tells us the shape of this place student so but I'm gonna I'm gonna leave it there and leave it for whoever wants to read it but but how about I was gonna ask you about um let's see how about with you anything anything new with you that you've been reading lately that you have been enjoying yeah I just read a nice book by one of my listeners actually Scott Smith Scott L Smith you can check out his book on Amazon I read his book I gave a nice review is a nice very nice short book on praying the rosary with Saint John Paul the second really nice book it compiles some of the teachings of st. John Paul the second and of course Saint John Paul the second is the one that gave us the Luminous Mysteries right so there's a lot there to gather inspiration for your daily rosary I highly enjoyed that it was a quick read and then I would just went straight back to what I'm reading what I've been reading for the past few weeks and maybe even months now which is the fill oka Lea which is a large large collection of writings from the 4th century to the 15th century roughly and it's the Desert Fathers Eastern you know what do you call those people that go to live off in on their own you know Hermits and you know these hermit people but the wisdom the wisdom of the Desert Fathers is very powerful because it's very simple it focuses on three main three main vices three main demons they call them okay so the acronym for it is GA s you can remember it like if you say I have gas so I have gluttony I have avarice and I have self-esteem this is the these are the three primary demons that we need to be aware of if we want to conquer vice and if we want to grow in virtue we need to get rid of our gas our gluttony our avarice and our self-esteem so globally elaborate avarice is wanting possessions money and you know they've got worldly possessions and this sort of thing gluttony is the cause according to the Desert Fathers they drill it in over and over again gluttony with food is the cause of a lot of unchastity so if you have for example I get wet dreams a lot so I don't like it I used to enjoy it when I was transitioning from atheist to Catholic because you know I didn't have to masturbate and I got all the pleasure at night in my demonic sex dreams right right I quickly I quickly realized that this is not healthy it's a it's a symptom of perversion that's in the back of my mind that's manifesting in my dreams and my demonic sex dreams and so they the Desert Fathers are giving me insight into how to control the demon of unchastity by controlling the demon of gluttony so I have been noticing since I've been reading this that if I eat too much especially before bed or if by accident I eat garlic and garlic of all things that I hate garlic but if I do eat garlic I have these demonic sex dreams and usually have a wet dream and so gluttony gluttony is tied with chastity this is according to the Desert Fathers so that's something I've been working on trying to eat less I mean I'm about 15 pounds overweight anyway so I want to eat less and control my get control of my gluttony and then have more chaste and pure sexuality not be like staring at sexy women on the street all the time which is a tendency and old habit of mine which is hard very hard to kill and then we've averaged like just being controlling over money like money or possessions and that sort of attachment we all have that I'm not really tackling that right now cuz I'm poor and it's none of my primary concern and then the self-esteem obviously is that is the mother of all those prideful sins and all those vices having to do with pride and but I'm tackling first of all I'm tackling gluttony and then I'll take it from there but certainly pride is the is the main one that's sort of like the big the big boss bottle that's gonna have to take place at the end of a is a self esteem and the way to conquer that is to love to love everyone equally and to love unselfishly and to not have favorites and to love your enemies as you love your your most beloved family members and to be detached in that way so certainly sounds good in theory am I am i close to in close to living that no I'm not I mean I have my favorites and I do love my enemies in theory but if they annoy me I'm genuinely annoyed so I have a lot of work to do with self esteem obviously you know same here I struggle with the gluttony too but um thank god I've been noticing it and praying about it a lot so I'm working on it too it's a tough one it's a tough one yeah I mean I I primarily eat for pleasure I mean I don't care how nutritious the food is generally speaking like if it's sweet I like it if it's salty I like it if it's oily I like it if it's fat I like it if it's crunchy I like it you know I eat I've been eating my whole life for pleasure like a pig like a pig you know if I open a bag of tricks I eat the whole bag of chips like if I open a bag of cookies I'll eat the whole bag of cookies I'm just a glutton so it's a really it's a really obvious sin that I need to get control of and we're not supposed to eat just for pleasure now there is pleasure associated with it by the grace of God he's a loving God a merciful God he gave he gives us pleasure but we abuse that I am I have used that I mean you can speak for yourself but I abuse that so I'm gonna have to start eating less and eat not for pleasure primarily but eat primarily to keep my body alive and keep me functioning so that I can work for God and then I can pray and that I can grow closer to God and it's going to help our prayer life if if we can manage to eat less eat more simply eat only nutritional stuff and eat less junk it's gonna help with our prayer life so I think that's a that's a big motivating factor if we can get closer to God by cutting back on some of the self-indulgence with food don't you agree yep I agree I agree agree so when when you go to Mass you're you are you usually by yourself or do you go with anybody no I always go alone I don't have any I don't have any Catholic friends I mean you're you're one of you know five or six Catholic friends I have on planet earth got it you got it yeah it's I know it's it's so funny but following God is a lonely world but it's so funny because it's bad thing you know it's not a bad thing yeah I'm the same way I want to I just want to pray when I'm at church I you know come try to get there 10-15 minutes early pray on my kneeler and pray through the mass pray after the mass and on Fridays we do adoration for you know just 10 15 minutes after mass Friday mornings before church and it's the highlight of my week you know doing that adoration and then on Sunday depending on which church I go to which mass I go to sometimes there's a duration after the mass on Sunday and so I get a little bit of adoration in you know once or twice a week depending on how often I go to Mass during the week nice-nice do you do do you say the Rosary often yeah I say it everyday I missed it once this week because I stayed up late helping my wife with some stuff commit I don't want to talk about her she doesn't want to be included in my trip but yeah if I'm not like exceptionally busy in some evening then I pray every night and I don't I don't claim to pray well but I'm hoping I'll learn to pray better with each passing month and with each passing year especially if I get control over my gluttony and some of the other principle vices that should help my prayer life because right now just burning through my prayers like I got to get this over with because you know Satan's pissed off that I'm praying and he hates the Rosary and he's gonna interrupt me and he's gonna give me distracting thoughts so I got a I got to get this over with so I like I got it done it's always been my way with the Rosary it's like a nervous energy like I can't I can't relax rarely you know sometimes I get peace and a calm and I can take it a regular pace but usually I'm just nervous and it's my temperament anyways I've got a nervous temperament I really need I really need to relax but my most my most calm prayer life is during the mass that's when I'm most calm but before the Blessed Sacrament especially and that's when I'm at peace that's when I'm calm and I don't have you know this 15 or 20 minutes of repetition that I need to go through in the meditation and the images I tend to get nervous when I have that burden on me but I'm persisting with it with my rosary I'm you know making baby steps making progress every every day when I pray it and but there's still a sort of nervous that sort of nervousness that I'm struggling with during the Rosary in particular if it's if it's short prayers like I do about 20 minutes of prayer 20 minutes in the evening and then I do my rosary after that so it's a lot of Prayer but the most nervous I get is during the Rosary I don't know why I just feel like it's like am I going to be able to complete this there's feeling many - I feel like I mean sort of in that the Coliseum and the Lions are there and I'm you know it's you know it's funny what I do because I felt that - of course right am I gonna finish am I so you know what I do I found this Gregorian chant but it's very few words right and the music's wonderful on it and I play that right that puts me at a nice peace and a calm right away and what I do is I'll even only do I'll do one meaningful decade one decade meaningful nice and slow with concentration and if and then and then a lot of times I'll catch myself I'll do a second decade and then a third because it's going so nice and so you know so this so it really helps so so so so maybe try to find find you one of those Jose it really helps I mean it just it works right away it takes it lets you concentrate on it I forget the name of the one I have but it's just a Gregorian chant and it's it's very few words and then the music goes for three minutes calm relaxing music bell and then it comes and I'll tell you what that those wonders it does wonders one thing that calms me during my rosary is you know I have a little shrine right of it I have a camera in there now so you can see that's my shrine there so I have them I have the candles and I have the incense burning and I've got images around me so that really helps with the calming down the nerves and you know either looking at a religious image or I'm looking right at the crucifix which is my favorite or I'm you know looking at the smoke rising like when I do the descent of the Holy Spirit I like to see the smoke rising from my incense because I picture the Holy Spirit one and it's causing that smoke to billow up that's one of my images that I use so I have different techniques to try to enter into the calm and the peace of the prayer and of course having the images for each of the twenty mysteries I do have them there so I can glance up at those and but yeah so I do get a lot out of the Rosary every day I do have a certain amount of calm but I don't feel like I'm it's rare that I have a really deep peace and a really deep meditation and a really satisfying rosary usually and there are other considerations also like time constraints and my my wife you know constantly wanting this or that just you know just nice stuff like let's eat or let's you know be a boy watch our favorite show or whatever it is but I can't completely ignore the fact that I've got her there too but but she gives me my she gives me my space and I really appreciate that and I do my prayers you know I take take 20 minutes do my rosary or whatever it is and yeah it's a work in progress so yeah it's something I definitely want to improve on mm-hmm yeah yeah maybe try that with one nice calming music or a Gregorian chant or some I think you'll enjoy it really it works for me and like I said I think it's even even its better because I think if I just breeze through a whole rosary real quick or if I do a decade with Meany nice and calm you know and really meaningful and open-hearted and kind I think that probably is is worth more anyways you know first anniversary yeah for sure I've been I've been counseled by priests to split up my rosary so I could do like what you do just do a decade here a decade there and like you said it's quality over quantity for sure yeah but it's more of a nervous compulsion on my part because it took me it took me seven years to pray the rosary every day to me seven years of saying I've got to start praying the rosary and like I memorized the rosary you know within within the first couple of years just here and they're just sort of praying and sporadically but I hadn't memorized but it was just a struggle it's a struggle to get started doing it and now at least I'm in the habit of praying it every day but when you think about me when you think about the Opposition in the spirit world the opposition to the rosary there there are a few activities that we do that are so heavily targeted by Satan and his demons as the Rosary I think it's one of the most targeted practices of any Catholic is the Rosary so I think there's a reason why it took me seven years to say it daily and I think there's a reason why it's gonna take me another seven years to say it properly but a lot of the saints a lot of the Saints have said that if you could pray one Hail Mary properly you'd be a saint you know they're they're great there is there are their levels upon levels upon levels of prayer and I'm at the very bottom with a very baby step of saying hey maybe one day I could learn to pray to you know wouldn't that be nice that's about the level I'm I didn't know you know it's funny I noticed that I like I mean I I'm remembering my previous and now in my it's it's amazing when it gets deeper and deeper and it's amazing I definitely don't say the Rosary enough but when I do say the Rosary and I'm done I feel like I'm floating I feel like I'm floating off of my chair a few inches for at least five minutes you know it's amazing it really is so yeah the prayer and like I said I mentioned earlier how we don't know how important prayer is but there's some about when you can just when when we can get it together to pray meaningfully with the open heart and just I don't know what you call it you know the stronger praying I don't know what you call it right but when you get there it's amazing and and it's wow it blows my mind to think that it can get back it even get deeper and deeper and stronger and you know that's amazing my is definitely going deep over however this year you know so yeah that's amazing but um so is there anything else before we wrap up because I'm gonna go see I'm gonna go meet my wife at a friend's place is there anything else like a topic that you want it to touch on today you're always welcome to come back but since we're talking now is there anything else important that you'd like to touch on or any questions you have for me let's see um it's so funny I should have wrote a few down there was a few I had but I'm not remembering him now but I still enjoy I enjoy a freestyle talk anyways you know non-scripted is nice you know so open heart to open heart that's always good so but no but a bright side of my I have a two-year-old and my wife's pregnant with our second so that's some good news ah congratulate oh thank you yeah it's amazing it really is so um but that's it so maybe well I want to try ask you yeah I'll be praying for you and your family and your wife and your children I wanted to ask you have you met anyone on my channel my youtube channel that you're communicating with regularly or praying with in the Union of Prayer have you have you met people like you know my friend Matthew Murdock and the Liz knee brothers and these guys are you in contact with anyone from the channel or no no it was only Matthew Murdock a few e-mails back and forth and that was it so nope nope not yet but um but I haven't reached out neither too many so I should try but it was only Matthew a few times um I enjoyed you guys's interview by the way not a trip man I love them and like kind of like I commented it's so fun he's like stuck he's like this is too good to be true you know like it's too good to be true so he's resisting with all he can just anything but to surrender it's so funny yeah it's funny I skeptical tits turning his sceptile meter to 11 and so funny yeah I can relate to that you know in I always relate religion to romantic love that's that's the image that God uses in a holy scripture a lot and that's the image I like to use and you know I resisted the advances of my wife my beautiful wife when she was sort of courting me 24 25 years ago and I resisted pretty firmly until I had a dream I had a dream where I had to choose to kiss her which signify I'm all-in or to walk away and never have contact with her in this dream I turned I looked at her I took off her Sun Hat and I kissed her and then the very next day I woke up you know woke up in love with her and then we're walking in that very same field of my dream and we don't we'd never walked in that field before it's a field called Columbia Lake and I I told her about my dream and I she was blown away that my attitude had changed but it's the same thing with religion and with God he's chasing us like the Hound of heaven he's chasing us down he's chasing Matthew Murdock down he's chasing her and raw down he's chasing Matt Dillahunty down he's chasing everyone down he's chasing you and I don't he's chasing us down because we're not fully in love with him yet but that initial conversion anyway is like that submission like you said you give in you give up and you you allow your heart to open and this is one of your sayings heart to hurt you know open heart to open heart and I really like this this analogy with with romantic love and seduction very very powerful and I think everyone that converts to God is pleasantly surprised in that in that way and has that same thrill you know it's funny that you say that because I see it as a marriage as how I always compare it I could see so many things that make sense when I compare it well how is the marriage supposed to be and then all of a sudden I understand passages of the Bible and I understand questions I had and I understand so when you compare it to a marriage a lie it makes so much sense for sure yeah yeah I mean we have to be a better spouse to Christ I mean this is it I mean we we just need to once we know that we've you know been selfish we need to repent and we need to come back to Jesus and clean up our heart that space in our heart so that he's comfortable there that he'll come with God the Father and the Holy Trinity ratan they'll dwell in our heart but if it's cluttered up with a bunch of junk he's not gonna be comfortable there you know God the Son

CVS Live Guest - 2020-01-25 - Kalen R.

so we're live I'm here with Kailen Kailen how's it going it's going alright how about you it's going well yeah nice to hear from you thanks for connecting we've spent the last 47 minutes doing sound checks and transom it's been fun getting to know you in that sort of informal yeah tech tech support mode anything oh yeah we didn't have to get your roommates involved so it's all good we got it figured out and so you you learned about my channel through Nathan Ormond one of my guests and I understand you're a young Catholic living in Ottawa but I'm gonna let you introduce yourself and tell the listeners a little bit about yourself if you would please okay so for for for whoever may be listening my name is Kailyn I am I am I am a ki I'm a Catholic but I don't want to say but because I mean has two counts like I should be adhering to traffic doctrine and a wine with all the Catholic teaching um but one of the reasons why I wanted to you know kind of come on here and talk with David here because I do have some questions about about about my faith and I assume that he's better better educated in it than I am and and I haven't always been a Catholic actually I was only confirmed into the Catholic Church just this past kind of cost and I mean I did so I didn't just kind of do it just oh why not I mean I it was an informed decision and I I spent like the past maybe entire year just for several months studying I've been going to Catholic Church to the past how many years it used to be an Anglican Church is not part of the England Ordinariate though it is it's in Kingdom with Rome but yeah that's me I am I'm a Catholic so this is Catholic versus Catholic but that doesn't that don't worry that doesn't mean it might not get 'spicy don't worry yeah so yeah it's technically speaking this is not Catholic versus Catholic because that would be a pre-recorded thing I can make it all make myself sound like a genius by editing out of all my mumbling and fumbling and all the tangents and uh what was I talking about again I can't you know all that stuff so this is CBS live guest so we've got to watch what we say and I sure I had to make my hair all pretty for you today so let's start by talking a little bit about your your avatar I've got it on the screen when I stop talking I switch over to the desktop and I can see your your your avatar your icon just talk a little bit about that and the background for that we discussed it a little bit off air but I want I want my listeners to hear and I want to hear more more of the story explore how the interesting yeah is there there's a lot more that goes to it so I can't I can't see what's being shown but I'm assuming that it's there uh anyone who's watching this now or in the future is able to see this image which is the most important part is that just a rectangle and a square the left of it or it's right however you want to say it and that image was based off of a photograph that I took when I was about 15 just being I why I'm like I'm an artist somewhat I went to an arts high school so no being a 15 year olds you're full of anxiety we got all that teen angst and you want to express that in an artwork so I had a I had a taste for really I guess director artwork doctor things I you know if it's people like seeing art that speaks to them and and that was this kind of the art that spoke to me at the time I'm certainly not anymore I'll tell you that but so is it is a grungy image of as a photograph of the reflection of a door that was a nursery door and a first-aid box and in the picture was just lit really it just looks kind of creepy so I used it in like oh this is an awesome picture I'll just use it in whatever and but what happened was that that was when I was that was mini mini museum and that was taken um the pictures taken right beside a classroom and this is last year I had a class in that classroom and in that class there was an image that came up and the date of that image which was 1315 was very similar to the number that I named my photograph which was a seven one three one five anyway so the number connection right there was was I stopped that was a first day I noticed I'm like oh wow I've seen that number before then I remembered em in that classroom like oh yeah that number corresponds to the picture I took of the nursery door in the first aid box so I looked to my left and I can see it right there some state in the classroom then I look at the artwork on that's been presented and it's a picture of the Theotokos it's a holy May Blessed Virgin Mary and crow holding Christ and hey look at that and I look at the first aid box in the nursery door and the number everything's clicking and I realized that there's some pretty interesting connection that's being made here and it was and then just that right there it just stood out to me because like this is such a crazy just crazy coincidence you know and ever since then I've looked at my artwork I've look to that picture of the whole different light because what that with the picture symbolizes in my way I see it well it's a nursery door it's you know and that nursery supplies we take care of children and it's door so Mary quite literally is the door for Christ into this world and Christ is our crusade box and these are the divine physician and so this is this is only the first half of this or maybe less in half because basically what what we did look at the class that I was in was my college which is called Augustine college if any of you listeners have part of it or maybe not it's a one year liberal arts program where we study the history of Western thought so we study the art philosophy the literature all of these things that have been staples in Western society we study the history of it and you can kind of see really I mean when you look at thing I'm not really but I'm not super academic but I am I I guess a low tier intellectual like I like I like looking at the big picture things and especially you study the Bible it's insane you just like take a step back and look at the look at the big picture and so yeah stuff studying studying here Augustine College kind of permanently like I like to I like to use the word scarred it's pretty pretty it describes it pretty actively because it's like something I can't get out of my head um but it started the way I think it in a very positive way because I feel like I can think properly now as prior to prior to this um I think in really modern ways and it's not just because that's I grew I've grown up in a modern society I've grown up thought I was thinking in whatever category in categories whatever terms that I've been I've been given um I guess I liked it more not later yeah I want to I want to focus on your journey from non Catholic to Catholic and talk a little bit about the context in your family are there Catholics historically in your family tree or not and what sort of religion was in home if any just talk a little bit about that a few of those yeah for sure so I mean actually it wasn't like I'm just this kid with no faith background who became Catholic just for whatever reason my ID grew up um octina I don't what my mom's mom was Catholic but my mom but the bite see how she converted back to she turned away from the faith or I came aboard every reason but it must have been something to do with well whatever I don't know the story but anyway so my mom did not grow up Catholic she not sure how she grew up but she's Christian for sure same thing was my brother my my son um helices my father he owned he because his parents are very very very like they they are very devout Christians they are I believe that going to an Anglican Church I think you're going through Lutheran lung but anyways but yeah my grandfather is a pastor on there there are two very very great people very devout Christians and so my father he he grew up Protestant and so that's kind of just how I end up growing up we went to a Baptist Church um I took her in British Columbia out west so I was about to church for the first maybe eight year yes first eight years of my life and then um then when we came here to Ottawa my dad came here to all about because of the college actually um my entire life revolves around this college I mean I mean more and more accurate revolves around Christ and God and God used this College to say something to me and so anyways the the teacher that coincidentally taught the art class that I'm talking about the change my life of the teacher cappella art class went to Negron Church and so my dad and my family just ended up going to that church because my dad was good friends with with this man and so yeah we went to that church for the path for I I be goin thought seeing church seen building because it'll sing community people more or less to the past twelve twelve years and it was an Incan Church and it became part of the it was twenty twelve maybe that became part of the inclin'd Ordinariate so we have traditional like Anglican music and hymns and stuff like that but it's in communion with Rome and we see logically we believe in the Catholic teachings and we believe in the Catholic Church and all that it's very very much so very Catholic but with the Anglican flavor I suppose you could say which I'm personally at the end of a fan of so anyways yeah so I grab my parents they they they actually didn't they didn't join the temporary parish kind of all became confirmed at once my parents didn't actually ah go though they actually spent another if they didn't firstly come into communion with Rome for another um it was a couple years and then so then they went then my younger siblings kind of went but the him assist because I my parents was our parents did but then me my older sister we both not we we didn't do anything we kind of just me we went to the church and all that but we wouldn't you know we wouldn't take eucharist because you can't do that much here at Catholic so we were kind of going to the church and not really know using the sacraments or anything but then so it was a matter of years of just being like that not really no not not really engaging I mean I've been an altar service whole time actually I still am so this is kind of awkward to have an officer who actually isn't even confirmed Catholic at a Catholic Church but that's how it was because it's a small parish and they needed me quite honestly so what happened was that meeting my sister we decided yeah we get our research we did all the all the you know kind of reading and preparation that we had to do and then we became part of beauty and confirmed in the Catholic Church just as fast Pentecost so that six months ago congratulations thank you it's amazing so I'll have to get your sister on here yeah she'd be another great person to have on Ash in the bill I thought that her and her fiance oh man you need you need to meet her fiance King he'd grow up a hardcore Protestant and he's also becoming Catholic because he was also someone who searches for the truth and the truth yeah so what were the stumbling blocks if any usually it's the papacy infallibility and and Mary what were the stumbling blocks for you and to a lesser extent you can talk about your sister stumbling blocks if a difference probably well my I'm not sure she had the same stumbling blocks or not I am I think her and I both had a similar similar one III recognize the importance of Mary and I pray that he'll marry sometimes but I've actually never I prayed the rosary once but I didn't do it very well I I'm soaked to this point I've never really properly prayed the rosary and it's something I feel like the Catholic I should be doing but um even though man I'm gonna confirm Catholic that's still part of me is like still kind of scared of it almost which is not not a good design but that was that wasn't really my biggest stumbling block I think the biggest one for me was um I did to me the biggest one was the Eucharist actually like it's really really hard to get my mind around that physical presence of Jesus Christ is in this bread in this wine like that is because if that's true like that changes everything yeah I like it it's uh I can remote buzz but some some Catholic intellectual riester and someone goes talks he he pretty much said like if the Eucharist is not the body and blood of Christ and to hell with her like it doesn't matter it's just some simple like bro who cares I mean similar saw something but fades like Catholic Church it's the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ and it's that's that's a pretty big deal on bayonets and that still is not something like it's don't want to see if you struggle with but something I'm very conscious of and I I take it very seriously they'll tell you that like if I feel sluttin slightly in the slightest bit addicted I should not receive the Eucharist I do not I take it seriously but too intellectually like affirm that it is this is like it's still difficult for me but I live by faith I'm taking that's that's what that is yeah that's what it's all about it's all about faith you don't need to you know have some sort of supernatural vision mystical yeah and every time I mean I when I am at mass I am exercising my faith right and yeah I know that there's a chance that I'm wrong I belong to a fall religion but that's just because I'm fallible but and I I do believe that I belong to the one true church that was founded by the god man Jesus Christ and therefore I believe as the church tells me to believe and I don't find it hard to believe but I'm not getting a you know I'm not getting a spectacular mystical experience every time I go Eucharist right so we need to we need to bear in mind that it is the faith that is being exercised we're asked to have faith to believe and to show reverence and to be humble before the sacrament and to appreciate that moment and the the gifts that are offered by Jesus Christ in the sacrament when we are humble before the sacrament and I can tell ya it's the it is the highlight of my week the the Eucharist because I didn't seriously and it's I'm sure it's the same for you and over the years you and I will grow closer and closer to Jesus Christ in the Eucharist and elsewhere but especially in the Eucharist it is the source and the summit of our via of our faith that's how the that's how Vatican 2 puts it in several ecumenical councils before Vatican 2 have put it and many Saints have talked about Eucharist as being this source and the summit of our beautiful faith so amen III agree 100% and so yeah it and like honestly like it's almost like it was at first at first it was like one of the stumbling blocks like it's hard to believe and now no I do I see it not way that you put it and I realize how important it is even even if still sometimes I'm like intellectually I intellectually I feel like I'm prideful sometimes and yeah dog I'm not humbling myself but I'm still thank God I still have the ability to obviously refrain from taking eucharistic I feel like I'm in a state in which I can't can't receive it and so yeah it's like when I realize that like that's what that's what it is like that's why why would how I not been Cod like my whole life I've been missing out you know though I want to talk do you have something to say about that um I really think this is a good point to talk about the sacrament of reconciliation confession and how how was it for you going to your first confession how did you feel going in how did you feel coming out and how frequently do you go to confession a month two months now is it to once every two weeks once every week once every month once every how often do you go I well I can tell you I should call I actually had plans of going inner them later because I I believe I think it's a good thing to go once a month and that's what I tried to do but I inevitably had failed so for me it's more than once every two months things I've done and I think again I've only been a Catholic for about six at a month so I've probably been rushing maybe two four times maybe five times girls count secret definitely no more than six times you know me a lot okay and Arthur do you have your sort of short list of your favorite things that you want without going into the nasty details well it there are dairy occurrence but it's not anything like this because I I think just blow a hole I understand how sacrament reconciliation how it is very like like it really is an important dude it's so important it's like I add another reason why like if a product like if other churches don't have this what are you doing like I it's I can't explain with words how important I really do believe it is and anyways it's a but every time that I've done it though I'll tell you that it's been more or less the same we're yeah I come in with my with with with the list I write down I prepared beforehand during my examination of conscience and all that and I actually free it's like I forget most of it when I walk out like I forgot like I mean I don't forget this is that this is not how it should go I don't necessarily forget the sin itself how it impacted me I forgot whether I confessed it or not which did I try to read off the whole page so it's like won't shoot while I hope I hope it's the same thing for my priest I hope he also doesn't remember any us but um but no seriously it's a guy - in another state where I'm almost emotional like I just to put it bluntly I feel almost emotionally emotionally detached like I'm just like I'm a robot I'm programmed to say to say these things and then and then leave and and I can tell you that man that might just because it's in a in a setting with another person in it and it's kind of awkward but um I've had it I've had several experiences where I've really really felt on I on a really deep level like like I'm like I'm in total tears and it's like like I need to cry harder than what's physically possible like it's I had 7 I get these every so often credibly emotional experiences you know that's the story in Isaiah where he where God asks Hosea the prophet to have a prostitute life yep and I realized that like I am that wife and I've been unfaithful to God night I really feel on a personal like I'm a deep deep love when I'm like you know it's no that was the moment I wish I could feel like that when I'm actually in the confessional because I feel like that's what you ought to be feeling when you're when you're you know professing your sins but also I have those like I have many of those experiences outside of confession but within confession I'm like emotionally detached yeah it's stage-fright - probably but yeah you know I I really I'm jealous because I want that that contrition I want those tears I've never had the tears I might be might be emotionally blocked or I might just be I might be just a typical man or I might just be you know spiritually immature but it's necessarily I heard it a lot and people people do talk about like man I wish I had those feelings and to that like just seal the deal listen to another podcast don't his name but he's up he's a lot better known is that the program was called Pines with Aquinas of something and okay and he was the one guy was talking to the other and and he was and and one one guy was like me who's had my name's exclude experience the other one was the more heady intellectual kind of guy he says well I don't have at least he said he doesn't have as many but he wishes that he would have those and I really like I really thought like the first time I ever had like I realized craps is what happens happening I I almost began to idolize that experience my big begin to see like almost like that that emotional experience becomes my step my own personal sacrament as in like in a mister you know it's like a it becomes a sacrament something I want to be getting it in it I it is deepening me my faith but it's it's not a real not a real sacrament that's institutionalized by the church it's just an emotional experience I'm having and it's like I almost start to I almost search for those experiences now and it's like that's it's not real if you're searching for it it's real when you're given given to you by God yeah and yeah and I also mean like you briefly mentioned that you're maybe I'm just your typical man or whatever but um yeah I I feel like personally I need a I'm probably a lot more emotional than your average do as well that doesn't mean keep it in mind it's not it's not it's not a bad thing that you don't experience those because I am I experience I've almost idolized those experiences like it's yeah we all need to accept reality as it is and accept the graces that God gives us yeah and yeah I don't chase after the emotion I mean I couldn't make myself cry I could I could work myself up to tears or officially unofficially if I do that and I remember back in the early days of my marriage my wife used to tickle me until I cried as an emotional therapy because she thought I didn't have access to my emotions so she would tickle me until I until I couldn't handle it anymore and I broke out with tears but haven't done that in a while and yeah but I don't chase down I don't chase down emotions and I yeah I don't necessarily trust my emotions and there's a lot of literature in the church from the Saints and the Church Fathers saying that if tears come naturally great but we shouldn't necessarily lean on our feelings as such not lean on our faith and on our our intellect needs to lead to a certain extent together with our conscience being to the intellect or reason and then the emotions of course come along because we're human beings even those of us who are macho manly men who don't cry yeah yeah sure I was being facetious there but yeah so let's keep exploring your faith journey because you're such a young girl you're such a young con guy what did your family and friends say did they say this is just a little step from your Anglican as a Baptist you know Baptist Church Anglican Church and you're just taking yet another little step or was this a it was this a categorical change for your family and friends that you and your sister took the took the leap into full communion with Rome is it a big deal or a medium deal or a small deal for your family friends bring small deal beautifully on the big deal for me I probably right but I mean like the rest my family already Affleck um but I mean ads in my mind meet my father my mother in my siblings my the rest of my family is not a Catholic I actually have no idea how how they see how I see that change um but just in general just when it comes to interacting with other other Christians who are not other same born Catholic it's like it's not to me if something I think of a deal I I see that you're there it's not about what church you I was illegally but like what church you belong to it's it's more about how how devoutly you're practicing and I do believe that the Catholic Church holds a fullness of a they'll tell you that but um if you're there there are many many people who are Protestants or more devout than I am let's put that way yeah I'm not I've said it many times I think there are atheists that are better Christians than I am I mean it's not a it's not a big stretch I mean this is part of being a Christian as' is accepting reality as it is and knowing where where you stand on that ladder of ascent you know and the the mystical ladder is intimidating if you read the great mystics of the church or even you just read it just read any kind of achievements of any of the Saints maybe young murderers or anyone I mean yeah I'm Sarah I'm scoring low on every I'm scoring low on every metric you know what I mean yeah yeah I know that feeling yeah I actually have my own I sponsor as I got confirmed I guess he's technically my god over now he gave me uh he gave me a book a ladder of divine essence-- by st. john climacus and it's it's about III think have you heard of it you yeah I just bought it from a Kindle because my friend came and isn't he a cure and Liz knee recommended it he and his brother Aidan Liz knew you might have heard them on my podcast they're starting I think they're starting or they may have already started a podcast where they're going to go through that book actually that's the content of their podcast I hope that they're doing it I hope that it's either started or it's going start soon and if yeah if they start to get cold feet I'll have to put some pressure on them to make that project happen because it sounds exciting but I I might process out actually yeah well I am in the process of reading the Phil Kalia which is the East that's what I want to read yeah yeah amazing amazing light it's the most life-changing book I've read it's a collection of writings but it's the most life-changing ministering writing that I've read since my conversion in during my conversion when I was studying philosophy for many years as a hobby I discovered obviously the Catholic philosophers and san agustin and he's the one that converted me to God and yeah and to the church but so saying that the students say the custody is my man he's my favorite my favorite saint because of that I'm a saint here oh yeah really and yes so later I was really really deeply affected by his writings and then of course all the Saints I just dove in and I read everything and there are a few highlights on the way but this fellow Kalia is really it's a different approach it's an Eastern approach it's a it's an approach and it's it's really really practical and that's why I'm that's why I'm excited to read it it's also very crippling in terms of shame and guilt like I'm such a loser and this book really this really this really humbles me this book more than a lot of the other the other books I read were like oh yes it's I can you know I can be right there with you in your speculations or in your your your love and devotion and all this about Mary and all these books I read but this book is really putting it the the target on me and my thoughts am i controlling my thoughts no I'm throwing my appetites no am i praying as I should know am I making vigils no am i standing you know as a penance no am i taking on voluntary penances not too many I mean very few so it's it's very sobering it's very sobering and I highly recommend it if you're if you're ready for that kind of thing oh man I don't even know if I'm ready well III understand what that kind of mean like into this this whole experience that I mean again obviously in Augustine's with my favorites because at the college I went to st. Augustine College named after him for a reason and also saying yeah just yeah a few throughout this college reading learning all the literature and philosophy all the stuff even just just that was a small taste of of this and it was already like and too much well you're you're a young you're a young person how old are you 20 and 21 so you've got your whole life ahead of you I converted at age 39 imagine how embarrassing that is Wow you know there's so many so many saints that have lived and died at the ripe old age of you know you know well before my conversion even started but there are other saints who converted late in life yeah Saint Agustin himself complained that he how late have I loved you lord no so I'm in good company there but of course I'm an embarrassment next to him but no there are Saints who convert late in life and it's not about comparing ourselves one yeah the other but I do you know I am jealous of you that you have this conversion experience and God willing you will nurture this faith this fledgling faith that you have nurture it this if you take anything if you take anything away from your thought with me it's that I want you to remember that you can lose your faith you have to take responsibility for this faith you have you have to protect it you have to build it up because if you don't build it up it's not just gonna remain flatlining constant it will decline you need to work at it you need to do your reading you need to do your prayers you need to love God you need to express your love to God always because if we're not if we're not improving then we are going backwards that's that that is one thing that's for sure in the spiritual walk with God right and for sure thank you very much like that I thought that is something that I need a hero it's something that's very important because I I can tell you it's it's is there there are so many distractions so so many ways to go wrong this isn't bad that well that could lead you away from the faith I mean it's I mean I I just just just last night I had this dream that I was obstacle it was like it's all snowy icy outside nas Clemmons giant Hill and mountain and at the top there it would suddenly became is really beautiful it was uh it was like all grassy the windows blowing the grass around it was beautiful and it was um yeah I was in tears now like thinking God like thank you God for giving no I heard forget for putting me here and then I kind of sat there looking and it was it was like a Ocean shoreline or something like that and then suddenly just people start appearing makeup room is a dream so that kind of happens the people appear without me noticing and I'm talking with these dudes these hippie kind of guys they're passing it around and I'm telling them how I'm like I can't I can't do that anymore like I've you know my experience with it has been you know it's been detrimental to my case it's this is just bad for my brain anyways as a young person and they they likely shut me and it was emotionally it was so it hurt so much like having these guy is that mean honest dreams are things are things of time on realistic but I just met them and yeah I had this emotional connections then it's like I I see myself in you and I feel like I am like you you were you were a brother to me we meant might not be on the same level spiritually but I like I love you and care about you so much and he just shut me away because I was sticking to my Christian principles and I was just and it's so easy to then I I had that weird dream just late last night and I almost I got a feeling is gonna come up in this conversation because and and this is where it is because that kind of those distractions is so easy to be part of this world as it it'd be so nice to be that I want to be that you know cool dude who will hang out with people and do whatever they want to do I'll be smoking weed or whatever having this big being the chilled New Ager kind of guy how easy that is to shock you from know an Orthodox Catholic faith it really is I'll tell you that's my biggest temptation in my life at the moment and it doesn't seem believing me it really is it's difficult yeah I mean I wanted to ask you because you are so young I wanted to ask you about puberty and girls and sex and all this yeah I'll be honest I mean that was something I struggle with as most people probably did but I can tell you like I'm very thankful to God that that really is not problem in my life at the moment and it hasn't been for the past two years so yeah because when you join the Catholic Church the women just flock to you during the Catholic Church you've got so many women to choose from kozelka there they always say okay right I'm kidding kidding again I'm just kidding bud I mean no actually the Catholic teaching on on sexuality is actually like it's a lot more it's a lot more clear and concise and strict tonight I know thankful for that and it makes sense I think I truly think it is the right right way it's right it's proper doctrine so that's how that's that's um but I put it that's kept me on the straight and narrow with regards to that to fit with with just sexuality and stuff but with which we've got like I think my big struggle that has to do with um I mean yeah it's got to do with like New Age thinking and your philosophy and I guess psychedelic drugs like I was really I I didn't I didn't get into them but they've been something because I go into a high school I was at every every high school it was such a prominent thing and it was you know people when they're in the 17 18 especially in the arts high school you're getting kinda a lot of that kind of stuff and that's always been like my biggest I think for me my biggest struggles trying to avoid them and not be too sucked into that kind of culture cuz it really does not it it what is it it's it's not nurturing you at all it's I just got a damages you spiritually and people feel to recognize the people people like you know do do drugs or whatever and they're like oh it makes you free if it makes it makes you think freely and all that and it's like not really it just makes you makes you a slave to yourself I think yeah I did a lot of not well not by anyone's standards I'm not going to press any one they wanted drugs I did but I did get involved in drugs in my adolescence and drugs and alcohol and luckily I have a weak Constitution so I couldn't push it too much but definitely a gateway to the demons and I exactly I got it I got into the New Age and finally you know after 25 years of New Age stuff I end up being an explicit Satanist like the Church of Satan sort of and Wow Anton LaVey kind of thing but know it all starts with you know sex drugs rock and roll one or jacket one or two take your pick whatever whatever works like the demons they want your soul and I mean they'll they'll offer you anything money yeah women drugs whatever you want whatever works best and st. Ignatius of Loyola says that they will always attack at your weak point so if your weak point is food the gopher they'll suggest nice food to you if your weak point yeah women they'll give you like opportunity with women if your weak point is money and power that's what that's what will be presented to you by the by the explicit permission of God they go before the throne of God and they say look this guy's weak for this let me tempt him with that and God says go ahead right ya know God will allow a certain amount of temptation just the right amount yeah we that we can handle with His grace exactly yeah yeah I like the book of Job pan talks about that where we're something like guy right or yeah yeah something similar happened showed but yeah the demons the demons got explicit permission a throne of God to to wreak mayhem in the life of job and his family and that's that's one that's one image in the Bible yep something to bear in like that that really oxide I've never even realized like such a simple idea I think oh they're gonna attack the weak points but I thought that you just thought helps me realize what my weak points are and it's you know Nathan you can ask yourself like I like to take it at like level even be like why do you have these weak ones you know do we arguing grow up with them or you know it's it's interesting to think about because I think the weak the weak point I've had and it's like I mean I think a whole reason why I've been sucked into the wage thinking or III was and still sometimes I guess kind of struggle with it um it's because I've and more more philosophy and just like looking at you know what the looking at the world through this lens that it's like pseudo-intellectual and it's like emotionally speaks to you it's really hard to explain but you know yeah yeah I'm sure you understand what I'm saying we're not it's not what the catheter just huges okay anything else I'll be the philosophes and anyway you don't understand the world that you get that are not from the Catholic Church or Christianity I says in general um have very much negatively impacted me and it's because ah like growing up I found that my listen I I do believe this is where we're a lot of like well partly why I'm here and why and I'm i whatever level I'm at my faith stems from this because when I was a kid like I've always like I say as long as I can remember like I'm I've been like four or five it maybe five or six but uh my way will they could lay awake at night my eyes closed and just think about like what's it like to be dead what's it what's what's um what's it feel like that the concept is infinity right I'm ending this what's that like I know I always try to picture like what's what is what would that feel like and you know I'd start getting dizzy and it's like you can't you can't comprehend it right so there are these things that are outside your grasp that you have to that you have an idea of but you have no you don't you don't know whether or not you're gonna face those personal you know is it very well I mean like if I if I at the moment we're not a Christian I believe that life is meaningless I could easily just be like I wouldn't care about what happened up to death in infinity as I understand it wouldn't would have no impact on me because I never an experienced that I'm only gonna my unconscious like I every dead and there's no like after death you're just unconscious it just like before you were born it won't matter but as like as a crowd as a kid I grew up I grew up with a Christian faith I didn't understand I don't think I understood heaven properly though because I'd still I'd still think about man what would it be like to see darkness for eternity I know it sounds like edging all that but like if this really is unlike my emotional experiences where I think about how I've been away from God I get all stems from it stems from this lack of meaning that that I excite style across on this culture and I see it everywhere and it's just it's so it's really sad and it's just like within these past couple years I'm so grateful that God's given me he's given me meaning like meaning of life was there all along and I just like you can't see it have you have you are you acquainted with Martin Buber Martin Luther or my Martin Martin no not Martin Luther Martin Martin Buber he's a Jewish philosopher no okay well I'm gonna put on good talk about this for a minute because it ties it with my picture and it ties him with him talking about right now is that I ever since I was a kid I've always you know I even now I still think about people who don't have like meaning in their life like what do they do there's if you really do look at Ecclesiastes it's pretty clear that everything under the Sun is vanity so that's all all this temporal pleasure all I guess if you're live your life is sex drugs rock and roll it's gonna all ecclesiastes now it points out all is vanity and it's just like everything under the Sun so above the Sun elsewhere God is outside of time that's where things do have meaning and it's reading Martin Buber and kind of helped me in a stand he points out that yawn he talked about like I I barely understood half that book because it's really hard three but I did get some out of it and it's like it only he's a Jewish philosopher but he almost like explain the Trinity but he talks about how he can't have love without a lover net beloved and it's like you know and love is the thing between the lover and the beloved you know what I mean and that's what that my picture I have that that's that's what I'm getting at is that you have two separate things you have well you have I guess you can see is Mary as the door in Christ is the first aid box that's two separate individual things and that loves relationship between them that's what gives anything meaning and but when you for those listening earlier he he said is it you ask me if my image was God the Father and I said sort of because I that's why I do see it I see it that way as well that that big big rectangle is God the Father and that small square that's us and life is meaningless if there is no God that blunt light bearers isn't meaning right I'd like someone to find a substantial way of explaining things like oh you can make your own meaning like that's a whole nother set of responsibilities you got to give yourself to give yourself a substantial meaning and if you don't you'll be just satisfied and you'll die alone and meet like it's really depressing got like other reasons I'm Christian is because I've felt this and I I and this ties in with why it has such like emotional I've had so many emotional experiences with God realizing I've turned away from them all I because deep down um like that's that's kind of where I've been my deepest existential kind of despair comes from this sort of thing it's like if if if if you if you're listening and you think about and whether whether you're if you're not Christian are you're not spiritual in any sense I'm telling you man there's you're missing out on something if you I don't know what your relationship with your parents were like it's like but tell me about love you had for your parents but love that they had for you and tell me if that means nothing it was yeah I I've not always I've never been a great like I wasn't always the greatest first kid growing up but um you know we were we've all been soldier involved in bad but one day I had something I did something in the past years ago and I confessed to my mother about it now I couldn't because it hasn't talked to her and I felt I felt bad about it so I cussed her and then she looked at me and she said I still love you and it was after a night and it's like it's a thing about our experience right there it's like I felt this terrible guilt and shame that I can't recover from and she said that she loves me doesn't matter but what I did she loves me unconditionally and later uh like months and months later I I still have all my mind whenever I talk to her honestly like it's still haunting me but took me grocery shopping and it sucks kind of but I'm like I'm more or less owe for it but what I'm getting at here is one day she just took me grocery shopping I'm still young like assume she's buying groceries and stuff but um she said you know she she she did this very kind thing for me she drove me home and then she just said like I love you and I hugged my mom and I just woke up I just walk upstairs and I just cried I realize like that right there that's god that's that's that's the love like God as for you and it's like if life is meaningless if that doesn't exist sure absolutely this is the I mean you mentioned the book of Hosea I mean that's a really apt so I tell ya because that that wounded relationship and just how loving and merciful our Father is and havin a few people I think have experienced it I'm I'm delighted that you had a sort of direct experience of that love and that forgiveness and in you know a concrete example mm-hmm with your mother and also in your conversion on a more spiritual level directly with the Trinity and sacraments and the church and so on and so forth you've you've tasted a lot you know but yeah as you as you go through life you're going to have more more challenges and are you're gonna have to build strength upon strength because if you end up in you know another situation where you feel like you're burdened you're going to need to remain flexible and sensitive so that you don't become a hardened middle-aged man with that's concerned only about financial security and old Ledger's and stuff like that right so there you have a whole your whole life ahead of you and I want you to remain flexible and sensitive to what matters most which is that with a relationship with God which you saw in analogy in your mother I've seen it all my mother I've seen it with that picture I was talking about earlier like I see it you see it everywhere once you but once you really think about it and that's and just talking again about that book by Martin Buber this this guy's not even you see he's a Jewish philosopher but he's still he's still got like all truth is God's truth I think what this guy was talking about writing about in this book is true but you can't have love without a lot of a love it it's just that this relationship it's just like two separate individual things people it's like life is meaningless without you know and it's really it's I was thinking I had this picture in my head about like you know people don't Elliot at this apart Evan realizes is it my car all all this new way to stop it's like that's what people want but they don't realize that they can't have that without Jesus Christ like I think and that's one of the reasons why I've said strengthen this all my experiences have strengthening that Catholic understanding of things is that we need Jesus Christ the logos the Word made flesh we need it Jesus Christ to order everything like to like literally order everything because otherwise it's just us falling humans on our own trying to reconcile us or something to ourselves I almost don't sure don't know that made sense but trying trying to be all unified and be happy by your on ourselves all I see right in that picture is little square all of humanity and counted together that's all of us I just do that once career we're not in relation to anything bigger know what I mean it's kind of hard to explain good yeah well I mean what comes to mind is building on a solid foundation that Jesus Christ and not building not building our fancy edifice is on shifting sand because you know in the moment like one one generation of human life is so fleeting that we could build a marvelous tower with all kinds of mansions in it and it's built on shifting sand but it's only with the passage of time it might be the next generation that sees it collapse it's it's only if we build on the solid foundation of Jesus Christ that we will have something that endures and the whole point of philosophy much less theology the whole point even of pagan philosophy is how to live the good life how to have enduring happiness so I mean I'm just I'm just reading today about the Alexandrian school in the early church and Saint Clement of Alexandria and his his pupil his star pupil origin who went astray a little bit from orthodoxy but there was a strong emphasis in that of what exactly what we're talking about you know like we need to build on the solid foundation and the Greek the st. Alexander excuse me Saints st. which I just call him Saint Clement of Alexandria said they're bringing philosophy Greek philosophy was what do you call that with a family bond a test not a testament but we have these different compacts or not contracts but we have like Adam and Eve had one and then the other covenant covenant exactly st. clement of alexandria was saying that the greek philosophy like the high point of greek philosophy with socrates and plato and aristotle yeah it was a that was a covenant before jesus christ came that was a sort of covenant with these greek people and that there was yeah there was truth in there that will lead to the catholic church eventually with the Incarnation which was fourth lining and st. st. Justin Martyr said something very similar earlier I think in the church history he said that all truth belongs to us Christians there's nothing there's nothing true there's nothing true that we should shy away from just because it comes from a pagan or from yeah from even from an atheist or whatever it likes accurately it all belongs to us and at all points ultimately to Jesus Christ and this is why I like about it can to the writings of attica too because it emphasizes it emphasizes the fact that there are elements of saving truth which belong to the Catholic Church but which are outside of her visible boundaries yeah the whole purpose of that is to ultimately have a way of bringing people into full communion so it's a really mysterious economy of salvation yeah a definite most definitely involves saving truths of the Catholic Church which are without without like outside of her visible boundaries so I just wanted to reflect on that it's sort of a general theme that I'm sensing from you know for sure I agree and I can even just all that ironic exactly what you're saying earlier it's like out as Christians we have to you you accept the truth as it is and you know I won't go wrong as you put in better words yeah you take the audience what it is and you just accept it because ultimately that's what truth is it's it's it can be it's painful and that's one of the things that I find a lot of uh a lot of certain worldviews philosophies I think like sometimes they they the de-spawn Oh think about positive things nothing can hurt you and everybody's like no the truth is actually brutal like oh yeah I'll say save my seat when I see ya they see you evangelical Protestants knows even being like Oh singing really it's good at this singing praises to God and all that but their soul is so like Miley and its present he is just thinking like oh man you don't know how much it's gonna hurt but then again at the same time it's like those people were probably spent last time purgatory than I am so it's honestly it's just I'm just not old but young cynical bastards so how are you gonna avoid purgatory that's my question to you how am I going to UM by a going to confession as much as I can and I never Tyrone I know I won't avoid it inevitably but I do know that I just I mean I I mean I can only put this but this way I know in purgatory is the only way out of purgatory is heaven you know I hope I go to purgatory so I'm gonna stay and I know I know is he painful but I know if the only way out Purgatory's heaven and that's what matters to me yeah a lot of saints say that if you aim for purgatory you'll end up in hell so you have to aim to avoid purgatory by going straight to heaven be a saint you have to be a saint in this life okay you have a name for that aim for that you aim for that aim high because you're if you aim low it's what's gonna happen it might not be a happy outcome so just aim a little bit higher every day and gather steam gather strength gather grace build your faith like I said build build build build build always up building and when your friends are trying to distract you and draw you away from the faith which they will yeah will like it whether they're conscious of their animosity or not doesn't matter you don't need to worry about if they understand what they're doing and why okay Jesus said forgive them they don't know what they're doing do you have to do the same thing with you with your friends and even your family if they start trying to pull you out of the church you're gonna have to persist and you're gonna have to suffer with Jesus Christ and you're just you're gonna have to stay in the church and keep your faith strong that's yeah that's my urgent strict warning to you yeah my advice yeah thank you I agree I'm literally gonna write that down right now because like I man that's like that's something was terrifying advice you've ever been given and yet I know it's not true yeah there is in the Second Vatican Council also I know I'm harping on that a lot but a lot of you take documents a lot of beautiful documents I recommend you read all 16 documents especially because it's very controversial among so-called conservative Catholics traditional Catholics right-wing Catholics whatever you want to call them said if accantus and whatnot that Vatican 2 is no good but it is a beautiful set of documents a beautiful council and one of the things they teach is that there's the universal call to holiness I mean this is the traditional teaching right what they're emphasizing it at Vatican 2 the universal call to holiness we have to be Saints and one of my favorite Saints is a very modern saint of the Opus Dei Josemaria Escriva denounced his name right but he was a Spanish Saint the Opus Dei he really emphasized that too becoming a saint in your more mundane ordinary boring unseen unpublicized life that's where it's at that's where it's at and even many of the great Saints like Saint Therese deliciou she was a hidden saint many of the Saints were hidden Saints suffering for Christ suffering for their fellow sinners and suffering for their own sins first and foremost and then suffering with whatever excess they have of penitence and penance applying that to family and friends and even their enemies some of the most touching stories you can read of the Saints is applying their indulgences and all their extreme graces to their enemies like mortal enemies people that are hating on them and trying to kill them and some in some cases successfully killing them really mind-blowing and very inspirational for us little Cubs so do you have any other topics that you really wanted to cover before we wrap up it's been about an hour here and we did 45 minutes of tech support that presentation um no I'm not honestly it's like I I thought about like oh man what am I even gonna say I I kind of said all that I wanted to want to say I admire not been as clear as I wanted it to be but anybody anyone before this thing and it still is thing and thinks what is it what does it what's up with this guy I this put this way the things that I've talked about and I've described in like my my experiences um no very very much my a lot of my unlike understanding of God and and all that it does come from my it comes from my personal like a majority of it comes from my personal experience but but much I have to be fair though quite a fair bit of my personal experience it has been educated and you know it's come from me cease studying you know philosophy and Christian history and Christian philosophy like it's it's so it's not conclude you uneducated say that if it weren't for my experiences here at this Augustine college that I wouldn't I wouldn't have I got believe God's work through this College like my entire life seriously revolves around this college just weird um but without without the experience of being here I wouldn't I wouldn't have the eyes the ID right at the moment I wouldn't I wouldn't see things no idea and here's the thing it's like there's many outside of Augustine like I'm in many other side of this colleges okay I put this many things that are not even Christian I don't have to do with my education anything that have also taught bad will spell them to me and then again also it's it's like you know God speaks to people in certain ways and I believe God's spoken to me through through my experiences and through all this so yeah um and I the reason I say that is because you asked me how I really it's something as a Catholic that I should think about how how how strictly or not a strictly how much I'll humiliate myself that adhere to exact because like I I agree that if I am I am heretical in any way I need to get that corrected and I know that the Catholic Church would do what it can to help me through that after all the church is truly a hospital I can tell you I still I still struggle cry like I'm still even even if I'm I'm a weirdo I'm some ridiculous big guy who can't articulate things or anything even even if I should be humbled what was beyond anyone I'm still full of such pride and in this too I think but yeah you got to get used to that unless you get some extreme graces from God that's gonna Humble you permanently like in a permanent way and make you a saint a saint that will be analyzed like that level of Saint where you're recognized as a saint you're gonna have to struggle with pride that's the big one and it's going to last yeah probably lasts until the day you die that's the sort of pessimistic view yes the optimistic view would be that yeah just keep availing yourself in a worthy manner of prayer and the sacraments as per the church's instructions and you'll squash you know with God's help you'll overcome your pride that's the optimistic view but I've been you know I've been Catholic for 10 years and I'm I don't think my needle has moved I mean maybe maybe I'm more prideful now than ever right I'm not improving I'm not I haven't been improving on that on that metric so don't have too high of expectations although God can do what he wants with you I mean he could make a man he could humble you tonight and you could be permanently humbled right but I don't want you to be too disappointed if tomorrow morning you wake up and you're still yeah oh boy just brace yourself so that's it thanks for coming on the show and thank you for having me I really appreciate your you Kate you're going sticking through all the technical difficulties where they preach it it's my pleasure really nice to meet you really nice to talk to you again nice to see your face right I'm looking at your face right now this green and yellow this era this artwork it's the face of the artist that I'm looking at but well I'll definitely have you back in the future and double yeah we'll keep track by a Facebook and email and all that sort of thing and I'll be praying for you and I give I don't know if you know but I do enroll all of my guests in be in a perpetual Mass no you're gonna be receiving the graces of the mass every day you and your immediate family until the end of time you'll be receiving these graces what you do with those graces is up to you right but they're they're gonna be poured down on your head like so much blood of Christ right it's just like inundating you everyday what you do with it is up to you but I would recommend that you tune into that fact and you avail yourself of all that grace and you make make use of it take advantage of it and become a saint and then come and help me to be exciting that's the idea it's to spread spread the grace and to become a saint and to be ultimately to be happy with God forever so thanks again for coming on and take care of yourself but learn and we'll talk soon about that to you and we'll talk soon about that to you about okay

CVS Live Guest - 2020-02-05 - Lynn K. Russell

I have forgotten the name of my guess Lin K Russell is that right did I get your name right yeah okay sorry I just I had your name and I just I forgot it but you're a Unitarian Universalist and you're also something of an expert on near-death experiences do you all just introduce yourself to my listeners and talk a little bit about what you're excited about well I'm NK Russell I'm a writer um I had the opportunity to research 2,500 near-death experiences and what I was mostly interested in was the learning I mean behind the experiences that I didn't after a few hundred I wasn't interested in what happened because I predicted that I but but I was more interested in knowing where to from there and that was the people of messages was what I was watching okay you're talking about ultimate reality the spirit world afterlife and a sort of thing is that we talking about yes yes and what did you learn what have you been learning have you been streamlining what you've learned into a teaching or a book I've written I wrote a book back in it was published in 2014 and it was called oh it is called and the wonder of you what the near-death experience tells you about yourself and because it did such a it was so well received and everybody just loved it with out now in second the second edition and I've added quite a bit to the new one and so it's just been released on their 3rd 1st of February this year so it's new ok can people find that online like on Amazon or something like that yeah it's also in stores okay and can you tell me and my listeners a little bit about yourself bit of biographical background how are you were raised and what sort of belief systems you might have we gone through and growing up and then as an adult and how old how old you are today and what you did for a living and all its really okay okay um well I'm 81 mm-hmm and so my voice so little cracky that's why I'm right I was raised by an atheist my mother didn't believe in anything and and so I never I didn't really get any spiritual training at all in her home but I was very curious because my grandfather had died and I was about eight or nine around there and so when he died I realized that everybody does I mean we never talked about this stuff at home but I realized that I was going to talk and that was terrible I didn't want to die and so I was quite frightened by the thought of dying and so I am I went to my mother and I assume er what happens when you die and she said nothing you just disappeared there wasn't such a good idea to tell that child but that terrified me I thought oh no I don't want to disappear so um I became very interested in all kinds of religions from that well I think from then but I really started in my teens too and to research religions um we had in earnest and I read just about every kind of religion there was in the world and and the offshoots as well and so uh and I also took catechism by the way just as an added little piece there um because I married a Catholic but I after the marriage was not a good marriage and so we I divorced and after the marriage I went back to school and eventually became a family counselor and I had three kids um so I was a single parent mom with three kids two of them are hyperactive it was like it was quite the story um but I didn't I worked as a family counselor for about thirty years and absolutely loved my job I loved what I was doing and then that when I retired um which was 50 loved almost 15 years ago I am I started to I wanted to write a book that was uh I knew I wanted to be a writer that that that was all that was given but I wanted to write a book and so I had to do research for my book because in my book the woman that was in my book was after projecting or out-of-body experiences and so I wanted to find out could my character in my book um actually do what I had given her to do so I was researching that and I came across nder app which is near death experience Research Foundation and they had a segment on Obie's out-of-body experiences and so I went there and I did some research but I also got hooked into all those cool near-death experiences and uh so I stayed around and just chatted with people provided every day and dr. long dr. Jeffery long asked if um if anybody would be willing to do to volunteer to do a research and I said yeah sounds like a cool thing I was - I was retired now so why not so I that's when I did my 2,500 near-death experiences and and in the beginning as I say I was more interested in I was fascinated by what happened to people what experiences they had but then later I became much more interested in the deeper deeper lessons that were coming back from death experiences mm-hmm so you said you studied a lot of religions you went through a lot of exploration did you settle on you you almost immediately after that or just described the journey into in it Unitarian Universalism if you would yeah I sorry about that I am I am I became a unit too early sadness I became a Unitarian when I was about eighteen so not too far after but I continue to study because Unitarians don't have a Dogma and they're up their principles up they have seven principles that they live by and and the two toothache can be boiled down to two main points if one is respect for all life no matter what and the other one is a search for truth whatever that might be so there isn't one direction with thee with the Unitarians which was perfect for me so that's when I stuck around but as I see it I kept I kept study and even after even in later years and even now I still continue to study I can't just stop I just love hearing north what different thinking's and different ways of seeing things great I want to ask you a little bit about near-death experiences and what you've learned and how it conflicts or contrasts with Roman Catholicism because you mentioned in an email that it's not really compatible do you want to go into depth on what sort of conflict or mutual exclusivity there is between what you've learned and the doctrines of the Catholic Church place yeah sure well one of the things that I learned that I was surprised at was that we don't necessarily have a death experience that echoes what we have been taught but we followed here in the physical life and that was surprising because I assumed all Christians are Christians and and that primary is true but it's not just not the only true so that was one thing the other thing I learned was that the one thing that excited me most was that we gain all complete knowledge everybody know that everything that there is to know and that that was fascinating for me because I loved learning and I I just couldn't get enough and when I found out it like I mean I doubt you find out everything so that was cool is there any difference between the best case scenario and the worst case scenario for any human yeah women T other things the big important points are that um that we create our own death experiences each one of us has an active role in creating the experience that we have and so here's my so we create our own experiences oh no I'm sorry about that example um can I get this sure go for it so okay so my guest is actually on the phone right now and I'm gonna continue asking her questions I've muted her and she's actually speaking to a friend who was ill so I'd want to air that I hope it's muting properly but she said it wouldn't she said she had if I've understood her properly I think she said she's she's back now so here we go he's just anything at all thank you sorry wrong and not a problem um and one of the other things that aside from creating our own experiences there is no judgement and that's one of the big things that's quite different from what religions teach and I would say all religions pretty much okay today and and so um but that doesn't mean that we get out of it that we that we don't have to take responsibility and the consequences we haven't what we call a life review and during the life review we experienced exactly what we have done to others whether that is um good or bad both both directions and so our stoles actually expand actually feel in real life what it was like to that person so if we did something kind and caring and that's what this that's what they would feel and if we did things that were difficult or hard for the other person that's when we would feel but then it doesn't stop there it goes on to those persons the people that those people had um so we were relating to the people they had contact with so that that works very much and that's good um and so that's how that's how we feel that's how we live or experience the consequences of our actions and and feel you know the responsibility and there isn't any chance of saying things like well he did such-and-such first so just paint a little picture hypothetically of the very best case scenario versus the very worst case scenario so let's say there's someone that was only good only kind only patient only virtuous only loving and then on the other end of the spectrum there's someone that was the opposite they lacked every virtue and they lacked humility and they lacked love and what is the ultimate outcome meaning after they've reviewed everything after they live and everything that they've inflicted on others and after they believe it everything that those people that they inflicted on inflicted on others and so on and so forth down through that hierarchy of that web of interconnectedness of interpersonal relationships after all of that when all is said and done what is the outcome for the best-case-scenario person and the worst-case-scenario person okay all right I'll try and see if I can remember is that the soul feels great great joy just overwhelmed with drill legend more happy than we can ever imagine here because we just don't know that level of happiness but they are so thrilled that they were able to help somebody and you know that there isn't a level of helping we they feel the same thrill if they picked up a package for somebody that better dropped it at the same level of joy in the soul as there would be if they took person in and bedlam in o'er orbit or saved someone its if there's no difference kindness is kindness is kindness and so that the other thing that needs and with the worst case can scenario there's a lot of shame and a lot of um anger with oneself and why did I do that and how could I in that kind of thing and to be honest while we nbe i well the life used is happening the person is feeling um great um a great deal of love is still coming - I don't they don't stop feeling this overwhelming amount of luck that just pours to them we're whether they're it doesn't matter where they are or what they're doing or the sadness whichever but it the love is the same always the same now the people who have done things they wish they hadn't will sometimes become very angry or disappointed with themselves and then their guides which by the way are there with them will tell them that it's ok it's just learning experiences and it also depends on our intentions even if the day my wrong what wa