CVS Transcripts




CVS Live Guest - 2021-02-24 - The Lisney Bros.

hello so yes i can hear you we can all hear you and we are i think we're live we should be like now so if you want to say all your funny jokes and i think it might be a good idea to redo that introduction things that was good okay uh you want me to sure go for it go deep all right your brother just said you're here from the meeting do you want to just keep going yeah yeah of course all right uh so i'm kieran lisney and david is my good canadian buddy and i've been on his uh cbs podcast three times and this is uh this is the first time i'm on his podcast as an orthodox christian all previous times it was protestant or searching or you know a catechumen in the orthodox church but now i'm fully uh received into the orthodox church so that's where i'm at now very cool congratulations on that's amazing thanks man what about you aiden i just uh i'm aiden i've been on twice i think uh talked a bunch more times and i only emailed him an opinions when something is off or i need to ask a question and uh that's our whole relationship right david no i mean uh we pray for each other right we do that i tell you that i pray for you but then i forget i thought that's all it was i mean that's that's what i do because i a lot of the time i just tell i just remind uh the blessed virgin that i want you on my implicit daily prayer intentions right because i i don't list every single name they're too many names but you should list mine i should list yours yes i should so uh yeah i do i do mention you by name when you remind me but then the next day i just go back to having the implicit prayer list and there's no disrespect intended it's just uh i don't like having to add names to a list of memorized names and so please don't take it personally and i do whenever i do interact with you anyone i always uh mention them by name that night so i don't know if that's a proper way of managing prayer lists that's how i do it i think that's that's basically how i do it too anyone that's on my mind that they uh gets a special mention so i you know when people reach out to me it does bring them grace of a certain kind little a little booster shot of grace because i get mentioned by name in the prayers and i don't know the way that it i've been reading about prayers and like like seeking out prayers of other people it seems a little bit more generic in that sense because the viewpoint is generally that god's will is for whatever god's will is and so we just pray that god's will be done and so the prayer can take on a more generic sense and like a general well-being can encompass that person which i think is actually kind of nice in a certain way because then i don't have to worry about like any of the particulars i just have to like even if you just have a general idea of a person or a group of people um you know and then like letting the intercessor or letting god just kind of fill in the blanks because it's like i don't know what's good for that person i don't know what's good for me um so you just you just do that and um do you ask explicitly ask for the true and lasting conversion of people that's what i do uh yeah i do things like that but like that's not like my entire you know i don't know i don't know how much of my prayer that makes up you know what i mean in terms of emphasis like if it's like you know uh my friend is sick please give her health and true and lasting conversion i put a lot more emphasis on the true and lasting conversion than on the little sickness and the health like that's a good that's a good thing obviously to wish on someone but it might not be god's will for that person so my emphasis is always on the true and lasting conversion that's cool i don't know if that's what garbage is once again what about your quiet little brother over there what's he think here nevermind just gonna make another game kieran's expense typically i'm not i'm not as good at um praying for people's uh conversion so much if i don't know them okay so like if somebody if if somebody is like an acquaintance or whatever and they have a prayer need and they say oh can you pray for you know my mom she's in the hospital or something like that i'll pray specifically about that but when it comes to like people in my family or my life that are closer to me generally if they say you know i have a specific prayer intention or even if they don't ask me for it and i just pray for them anyhow i'm also praying for their salvation so it's kind of kind of like a you ending i guess but i'm pretty bad at like you know the average person on the street and being like oh i hope they get saved i mean i do but that's not my first thought because i'm super selfish so i'm just like whatever i want to be saved and now if i tell somebody i'm praying for them i try to actually pray for them right right that's one thing i've been doing too and i'll usually usually in that case i'll say i'll just say a quick hail mary or something like that for somebody i'm not saying like that dude i just asked god to smile on me that's all i had oh that's good i mean it works it's it's easy you fulfill the promise and it's prayer doesn't have to be hard yeah just no no yeah and just help them out help them out in that moment yeah do you do your pendants immediately if you go to confession and get a penance do you try to do it as soon as possible yeah usually when i'm walking away feeling light nailed it aiden in the orthodox church they give our father prayers or what do they give for repentances uh so penance is it's um it can be literally anything it could be just like it is in the catholic church almsgiving whatever typical would be like you know say say an extra 100 jesus prayers or something like that or do you know do as add five prostrations to your morning prostrations or something like that so it doesn't i mean i'm sure every priest is different but my my spiritual father is really traditional so typically it will be say more jesus prayers for somebody or pick somebody out and instead of praying for yourself through the jesus prayer insert that person's name along with your own in there say you know uh lord jesus christ have mercy on us rather than or your servant adrian or your servant aiden or something like that so that's a typical penance what about uh indulgences does the orthodox church have any concept like indulgences that we can draw on every time we pray and get the benefit for ourselves or the souls in purgatory or anyone else uh i mean we're we're constantly asked to pray for each other and um but there's no there's no defined doctrine of any type of treasury of merit or anything like that so there wouldn't be like oh saint piecios was really super good in his life so he did so much extra now we can draw from that we would just simply say well saint paulisios pray for me because you're closer to god now so that that i mean there's no there's no there is a difference there's a the one difference that comes to mind is that uh we catholics have to have the conscious intention of gaining an indulgence to gain an indulgence whereas if i just ask a saint to pray for me or for mine it's it's powerful and effective and their grace is involved but i'm not getting that extra boost of the indulgences you see see there is a difference there it's like um uh i don't i don't claim to know how indulgences really play out in the real spiritual world but i like having that little bit of extra icing on the cake and uh i wonder if it's been discussed among orthodox theologians or it's just completely dismissed out of hand um i mean because there's no there's no idea of purgatory in um i mean obviously we could be talking about temporal sins in this life in the catholic setting you know it's not just for purgatorial needs because right now we're in a we're in a in a sense we're in purgation right now we're ridding ourselves of passions but um i think because there's not there's no doctrine of purgatory and orthodoxy that the two kind of go hand in hand so one would expect that there would be a discussion about that if there was in fact um an understanding of of purgatory in the orthodox ethos but there's so excuse me sure come on aiden get your covey did you want to acknowledge openly and publicly what your cough is all about or no yeah no big deal um we get it it's not it's not a real disease guys um yeah you guys should be wearing masks have you seen anyone uh suffer and die from covet in your hospital i down in anybody die but i've been working with people i've worked with somebody who was most likely going to die okay but that patient was moved off my floor but that patient was very sick tons of comorbidities yeah i i don't like working with covid patients they're it's very frightening um very high acuity very sick human beings yeah uh a lot of work it's a lot of work it's very difficult a lot of suffering will you be immune or only to one of the 5 000 strains after you get through this i think i don't know and it's funny because like i was asked to like did you get the vaccination and i'm like no and they're like did they offer it to you yes i just don't you know this is this is the worst that it's been this is like how many days have it been uh one million it was since last wednesday since the last wednesday that i that i technically had it um but i've been chilling man we got hbo max so friends on on you sound boring sounds you sound sicker now than you did like three days ago yeah um i probably am i probably am but i don't it's still not that bad i'd still be going to work if i didn't know i had two of it i'd be like whatever you know like yeah so you trust the test results that you actually do have coveted yeah yeah yeah i don't feel right adam no but i mean you might just have something else and you got a false positive any chance of that i mean there's always chances of that sure does it feel significantly different no can you speak or cantonese no politically no joke sorry what i don't know oh because it came from china i get what you're saying i think it came from that i think it was an import into wuhan from the us that's what i've heard but like i told you before we went live i've been watching a lot of uh right-wing conspiracy theories which are most so is everything you're saying very tongue-in-cheek right now or is it like yeah okay no i don't know about it other than it's you know nice to have some time yes karen who uh so i kind of like laid off the conspiracy after i'd say like the first like eight eight months so like what are we in like month we're in month 11 we're almost at the year or something like that or we are at a year or we had a year yet i don't know anyhow i'd say like eight or nine months in i stopped like probably actually after the election cycle i laid off the conspiracy because it was getting it dude it's inundating the entire family and people are going insane and it's like what you and i were talking about last year this time when you were talking about conspiracy theories and the evil that's behind them in a lot of ways i i've done a little bit more research into finding validity in that in that i think that there actually is um like this whole awakening thing that people are talking about i i actually truly believe that it's a false it's a false light uh awakening that people are thinking that they're being awakened in a lot of ways but it's kind of like a bait and switch i don't know but you're talking about you're talking spiritually like satan are you talking about oh yeah okay but it manifests in the physical so i think that honestly like because i'm i'm not a republican or a democrat i've never voted in my life i will never vote in my entire life and i'm a hundred thousand percent sure that i will never vote no matter who is the candidate because i just put no faith in it whatsoever but if somebody wants to vote that's cool yeah uh people get really passionate about it but it is something super divisive yeah but i think that trump was a useful idiot in a lot of ways and i think that um he was there primarily to sew more division um because a lot of the things that people were you know cheering trump on for um in regards to exposing fake news and and that corruption and in the political sphere all these different socioeconomic spheres that are obviously um corrupted he's pointing these out but at the same time he's pushing agendas like operation warp speed you know the vaccine he's he's pushing all these other agendas that you're like well wait a minute that doesn't make any sense if he's on our side why is he still doing this or also him calling himself the chosen one and israel regards him as as uh ben yosef uh mashiach but ben yosef i mean it's it's crazy dude like i just i don't know i think it's a false awakening that's a guy it's a cool guy uh yeah i think a lot of the because i've been watching so much conspiracy stuff just for entertainment like i watched the most outrageous uh guy i won't mention him because i don't want to sort of draw attention but uh what's his name he believes that snow is a man-made government-made conspiracy theory there's no such thing as snow it's all man-made oh good grief wait like snow as in like the snow that falls from the sky snow yeah like the weather because his rationale is hot air rises so it's impossible for ice to form up higher in the atmosphere and so i mean that's about as deep as his science goes but anyway i just to say that i think a lot of uh i think a lot of conspiracy theorists are simpletons that just uh get that attention from saying outrageous things and i watch him because he's outrageous right so i'm feeding that i guess but i think it's i think a lot of it's demonic uh just like kieran was saying yeah um it works in a very you know uh the serpent is the most subtle of the creatures so he'll insinuate himself into your mind and into your beliefs and then before you know it you've got a really popular conspiracy theory going and once it's once it's going it's kind of hard to be critical of your own uh monstrosity yeah yeah and the the last thing i'll say about it in regards to the serpent being cunning is that most people we see it's it's again it's the left right paradigm right versus left good versus evil and what i see although the democratic party is horrendous in a lot of ways obviously um people tend to think like oh when satan appears when the antichrist appears uh it's going to be in the form of a socialistic dictatorship you know the one world order uh that sort of thing right but if you if you actually think about it in light of as satan disguising himself as an angel of light um it wouldn't be that obvious so what i personally think is that in the eschaton when all of this goes down could be 100 years from now could be a thousand years from now whatever there's going to be a false flag situation like a new world order in which we all are controlled by a dictatorship a global dictatorship and the solution is going to come in and the person who offers the solution to that social dictatorship is actually going to be the man of perdition exactly so that that's kind of my overall thing so like that's like that's all i know broad scope though but most people think like yeah he's just gonna rule with an iron fist and it's like no no it actually says the opposite in scripture it says he's gonna deceive if possible even the very elect so i mean we would know right off the bat if the dude is a dictator like yeah that's not that's not the the the person instead of christ that is that is a total it's going to be the person offering the solution that's really the antichrist and he's supposed to be mortally wounded meaning that there's some sort of self-sacrifice or a heroic uh gesture that's made right in uh getting getting wounded and almost dying or dying or whatever it is yeah yeah exactly i agree with you we need to go a a little bit further than the surface on all these conspiracy theories and they are toxic they are demonic i think and uh i've just been indulging in it because i've been away from the sacraments so much like we're on lockdown here and the churches are all closing and i've uh i've managed now to find a place where i can reserve and i can get the sacraments um that's crazy it's still like that yeah we have a curfew here it's like we because like codewood will get you if you're out too late well it's because they don't want i guess young people going and mixing it up after dark and uh i don't i don't know i mean as if that's gonna as if that's gonna stop young people from going outside after dark yeah and like you could just have your little party and stay up all night i guess i mean nothing could stop me if i were young and wanted to party with my friends nothing could stop me that's for sure but um you know i do have some sympathy for the governments of the world and for my local and provincial government here because no matter what you do you're going to get flack for it i mean if you're too strict not strict enough like no matter what you do if you're if you're too s if you're too consistent or if you change too much like no matter what you do you're going to get harsh criticism so i think you're between a rock and a hard place if you're trying to govern and guide the masses like that's a tough so i want to talk about the orthodox catholic common ground and uh you know this whole thing with uh the hesi caste movement and all that sort of thing because that's what you showed some interest in aiden do you want to sort of you want to sort of pinpoint some of the questions and uh directions you want to talk about with your brother or maybe kieran can say right away kieran you you're knowledgeable um i know so kieran and i um have had a couple of discussions on this um and as of late um a third party was involved named george what's up george and um george's orthodox and um we were chatting about it um has a chasm and i'm like i'm like the more that i pray rosary i'm like oh the rosary is a it's a prayer of the heart and something very similar i think that the same thing is happening i just think the methodology might be tricked i think there might be some differences here and um the more that i come into contact with ezykasm i'm like oh that seems like a really tried and true tried and true path and um very beautiful obviously the name means such but um when i was bringing it up with with george and kieran kieran you didn't specifically express an opinion but george pretty emphatically stated that no catholic theology and orthodox theology they cannot they cannot co-exist and i said well what if it's a problem with language like what if it's just two people using different words for the same kind of phenomenon and then like just bickering over um terminology over terminology and like semantics and he's like no no no like they've they immediately pulled out words that i that i didn't understand and immediately pulled out concepts that i didn't understand and so the first thing they said was that just doesn't jibe with divine simplicity man which like i don't know anything about um other than i know that god is supposed to be simple not complex and they're i think what was being said composite not composite so like when you have an iphone versus holding a an android you feel the iphone and you're like ah simple light beautiful but then it was said you know the essence energy's distinction um is then made and god can't be simple i think divinely simple in those terms if he if he has essence and energies is that kind of the argument kieran no so god is simple um so this is this is a really weighty topic and the reason why i hesitate to speak on it is because i'm not well versed on it either and i don't at this point at this point in my life i don't care to be so well versed on it but so when we're talking about hezekiah basically hezekiah is not just like um like when you tend to think in in catholic terms you think of oh i'm of the franciscan school of thought i'm uh from the carmelite school of thought i'm from the you know whatever um augustinian school of thought the aquinas school of thought so you have all these different either philosophical or maybe theological uh leanings that accent and pinpoint different parts about the catholic faith so it's not to say that any of them are like dialectically opposed to each other it's just to say that the equine in school focuses yeah the emphasis is different whereas in orthodoxy the emphasis is all in hezekiah which is why specifically in the monastic orders you don't see you don't see a differentiation between a monk in russia and a monk on mount athos because it's all one order it's just there's no delineation they're all practicing the prayer of silence they're all practicing hezekiah um the reason why when we talk about god and how what is the nature of god's being this is particularly pertinent because this is how if how how god is or who he is or how he is defined is directly connected to how we have access to him or how we can interact with him so in further looking into what the catholic definition of divine simplicity would be it doesn't seem and david you can correct me if i'm wrong but it doesn't seem to me that there is actually a dogmatic decree on the equinan type of leaning towards absolute divine simplicity or the franciscan like uh you know skodan kind of thought where there is distinction in god but it's a formal distinction it's not a it's not a yeah it's not an actual distinction so yeah i think if it could be a semantical thing yeah from what i understand uh we would say that there are actual distinctions in god obviously starting at the basis from uh the trinity their son be good we would see father okay father son holy spirit there's a real distinction between the persons and obviously the essence god is not god the father is not his essence he has the divine essence same thing with the son same thing with the holy spirit they share the the same essence just as you or i would share human nature but our human our human nature doesn't give us our our personhood it doesn't give us our personality doesn't give us our our our specificity basically so like me you and david all share human nature um but let's say for instance uh aiden you're more into cars or something and i'm not into drawing right exactly but you have you have different distinctions we have these we have these different distinctions within us and let's say a lower life form could look at us and say oh i know that there are they have human nature because of the energies that they have because of the activities that they that they possess the activities that they perform i can see from those activities that they share a common human nature so let's take creation for instance we can translate this then to god let's say christ we know created everything right holy spirit shares in creation god the father shares in creation creation is a specific activity or or a nergay which is just the greek word for energy which only god possesses so because christ possesses um an energetic creativity same thing with the holy spirit same thing with god the father this specific energy of creation is not equal to the divine essence but it points to the divine essence does that make sense so like so when we talk about interacting with god there's no way that we can interact with his with his nature with his essence it is through his activities whether they're infinite activities or their finite activities whether they're passive or they're active it's through these things that we interact with god so god's love his glory these would be instances of of infinite activities or passive um passive and could be active activities but something like the incarnation was a specific point in time where that came into the incarnation was not from all eternity to eternity the sonship was but not the incarnation so these are all distinct energies that interplay with each other and when we're talking about prayer over interacting with is the grace of god which would be another energy and the reason why we know that this has to be equal to god on some level is because grace by nature is is uncreated otherwise it doesn't have the ability to save you grace is everything that's given to us and david you talk about this a lot or at least um i think you did how everything is grace you know the things that we are given it's all by god's grace and so this we know um is one of his energies this is what energizes us in the sacraments this is what energizes the host in the sacraments this is what um this is what energizes our prayer life how we interact with him how we commune with him um and this is the uncreated light that hezekiah is always constantly searching for so the ultimate goal in prayer from the orthodox perspective and from the from the catholic perspective whether some catholics know it or not is union with christ through the uncreated light that they saw on mount tabor and christ says in um i think it was in the gospel of john christ says i share the same glory that my father in heaven has from all eternity to eternity and this is the glory that i'm going to share with you so if god has this glory from all eternity to eternity that means it's not finite which means it's it's it's uncreated and if we're going to share in that that also means we're we're participating in that uncreated energy or that uncreated life or that uncreated growth so all that to say basically um david or george and i haven't talked much about this um so he's obviously way more well-versed than i am on it i would simply say that for the uh from the orthodox perspective from what i know of people who have no who have very very surface level understanding of catholic theology and praxis which is really what we're talking about they would look at some of the of the different almost like the cafeteria kind of picking and choosing of whether it's a specific devotion or it's a specific kind of type of prayer or whatever most orthodox i think would look at that and say well that's weird we just have like we're all just trying to do the same thing in the orthodox and at the bottom catholics are doing the same thing but there's um there's such a differentiation between different schools of thought and practice in the catholic church the way i would talk about it is in terms of video games like you can uh today and i think since the beginning of video games development there have been games within games so you can be a character moving around in the world and then you can approach a computer and you know the password you can get in and then you can play games on the computer so it's sort of a meta thing so i think what you're saying and i think the way that i i don't think there's any conflict between the orthodox and catholic positions on uh essence energies and all that sort of thing and uh the uh you know any of the issues that you talked about i i don't think there's any difference between um there's nothing that's been dogmatically fixed by the catholic church that's in contradiction to anything you said yeah i got koba too just kidding but we caught it through the phone what i would say wear your mask what i would say is that the vision that you're painting kieran of the orthodox way is uh reminiscent i guess of the uh the red pill in the matrix where instead of being on your computer playing a game and within the game world you find a computer and you log into that computer and you play a game on that computer which will be the catholic sort of uh very um abstract approaches to theosis what you are emphasizing always and everywhere is take off your virtual reality headset and you're sitting beside jesus right now right here right now right so all of the game all of the games within games are designed by jesus christ to bring us to the point where we can remove the virtual reality headset turn and embrace our lord and savior jesus christ who's true and true man so what you're claiming is that the orthodox just skip all of the games that were designed by jesus to help those of us who are maybe further away from the theosis uh you're saying just to emphasis emphasize this one approach which which lifts the veil right through a series of techniques of what i guess we could call quietism which has been condemned by the catholic church so that might be a sticking point quietism has been condemned by the catholic church very explicitly but qualitiesism is another thing that confuses me david because there's so many like that word has been used for like a lot of different things it's kind of like modernism the more people say quietism and the more people say modernism the more i'm like i don't understand what either of those those two things are well it's an inactivity it's a purposeful inactivity whereby you have a an attitude of complete passivity right that's that's oh no no that's the cross that's the crux of uh of quietism where you're you you relinquish your desire for salvation for example that's that's how extreme quietism is right you think that's that sounds that sounds like centering prayer that that's what i was just gonna say that sounds more like centering prayer to me but no that is completely opposite of hezekiah right um but there might be some concerns among some uh catholics who don't understand orthodoxy to clump them in together you see to me so i'm not saying that orthodox the orthodox approach is quite isn't what i'm saying is there might be some confusion about that and on the surface it might look like that because your orthodox approach from the way you've described it and i've never heard it described that way before even though i know there's a more mystical approach in the orthodox church my wife is orthodox even though she doesn't practice but if you just look at this if you look at the liturgies you can see that the the mystical component and even in the icon iconography and all that um but what i'm saying is that uh my to defend my catholic approach with the game and the game within the game and so on and so forth these sort of nested games within games uh that's been provided by the economy of salvation which is designed and guided by god almighty um i think that we might be tempted if we're orthodox who might be tempted to look down our nose at some of these games within games and to poo poo some of these some of the devotions that are uh quaint and maybe popular devotions that arose in uh peasant culture or something like that whereas god would see all of that as equally valuable and everyone's in a position to be saved everyone gets enough grace to be saved and it's not just for the superstars that are able to lift the veil and remove that uh virtual reality headset so i'm not accusing you personally i'm being a snob no no no no no i'm saying it might be it might be a temptation if you're if you're orthodox if you have a strong ego and if you're prone to vanity and pride it might be a temptation it would certainly be a temptation for me i think that i would i think what i would probably respond to that is um simply that we're all given the same gospel so it doesn't matter if you're it doesn't matter if you're a monk it doesn't matter if you're a lay person or if you're a priest or a bishop or an archbishop or you know in in catholicism it doesn't matter if you're a cardinal or whatever we're all expected to do and sacrifice the same way but that looks differently depending upon the vocation this one person might have so you you better believe that there's not orthodox christians every single one of them walking around saying to jesus prayer 24 7. that far from it um there's plenty of monks that don't even do that um basically the grace that we're given we're called to respond to synergistically so um that's going to look different for different people i think ultimately what what the hesikistic tradition um which really is just the orthodox tradition tries to get down to at bottom is that we want to be in union with christ and um there also is um there's a real hesitation to use um personal imaginations personal images um things that you can cocked in your mind because we know that our hearts are desperately wicked and so if we get taken down that path there's a real chance we could be deluded in a lot of areas so we emphasize having a spiritual father to help guide you into this and to keep you from from from falling into pride into temptation um having a spiritual father you know fasting as as as best you can praying as often and as best you can and at bottom trying to to just love people as best you can whether that be a catholic or a hindu or a buddhist or whoever um orthodoxy to me the reason why it's so beautiful is because it kind of has like a it i i hesitate to say the word dual you know duality to it but when i first looked at orthodoxy i thought to myself boy they don't really they don't really seem to have anything pinned down and then when i you know became started to become catechized i thought wow man they're like really strict on a lot of things like they have a lot of things really pinned down it's just that in orthodoxy there's not so much of a dialectical tension we don't try and evaluate paradigmatic things through dialectics so the western minds that's what i was saying this whole time the western mindset the western mindset is essentially going to say um and i'm not saying you know if you're in the west this is automatically your viewpoint i'm just saying that it's common in western enlightenment thought to oppose things so that's why you have protestants and catholicism and catholics thinking that they're so uh they are diametrically opposed in so many ways but it's because they're they're they're trying to answer a question that doesn't even necessarily need to be asked same thing with with modernists or secularists or or what have you so orthodoxy tries to take a step back and say well is that even the proper question and i guess to some that would look like well that's kind of like high-minded and douchey but um ultimately the emphasis is too is to find salvation and to uh and and to gain union jesus christ so um it's not that we wouldn't it's not that we would automatically write off like for instance the rosary they're they're orthodox that pray the rosary um that you know i don't know if they would pray in the same way that a catholic would but i mean certainly these things are not it's not like uh everything is in a box basically that's that's that tends to be what i see in western christianity is we have to put all these things in their neat little theological boxes um and we need to have it all in a specific place and that's just this is not how it is in the orthodox church that's why when we say prayer of the heart most people equate that with the jesus prayer but the prayer of the heart is that's not a that's not a prayer that's a state you know that's to be en engaged with prayer of the heart can be done through the rosary it can be done through saying god have mercy on on me it could be through going throughout your day and just lifting your thoughts to god constantly as saint augustine says you know when he says that to be in ceaseless prayer is to always want to be in ceaseless prayer that that can be prayer of the heart it's just how much are we devoting to that and i'll be the first to say that even though the jesus prayer is my devotion you know i barely get by on my prayer rule as it is you know with what my father my spiritual father tells me to do because i'm i'm horrible but um yeah i mean but i do i do understand totally what you're saying some people could look at that and be just like you know the the palamites as they're called you know saint gregory palamus they used to call them naval gazers because they couldn't understand why they were always hunching their backs and sitting on stools to pray um but i guess it's just again kind of what aiden said earlier maybe there's some terminology or traditional things that aren't understood because for at this point i mean the west and the east specifically catholics and orthodox we're so similar in so many ways but we've there's such a chasm between us and other areas that it's like well that's stupid the immediate thing to do on either side is to just write the other one off uh which is you know a shame but it is what it is at this point david and the response is going to say some of the time yeah some of the time um what i was gonna say is actually david the cool thing about the prescription that kieran's talking about which you say you can like there's a tendency towards pride and i'm like oh that's probably why i'm attracted to it but um but one of the things is when you get catechized um in the catholic church once you're done you're like okay cool i'm just like so what do you want to confess her now and it's like yeah i guess if you want just come on it's come on sundays and don't not show up because that's that's a mortal sin and make sure you're here those couple extra days and then it's like okay but what else and like you know you're like you know you can read a little bit it's good to do some spirituality every once in a while yeah i'm jealous of the guidance that kieran has i mean i wish i had i've been it's not that i haven't been trying to find a spiritual father a guide it's just the hurt it's hard to find a holy catholic priest right and if you find a holy catholic priest i can guarantee you he's even busier than the unholy ones so right or the less holy ones um but you know i i it was a life-changing thing for me reading the uh filipillia or however you pronounce it and every time i would watch catholic media that's why i stopped watching catholic media was because i just kept thinking okay all your arguments all your presentations all your your uh polemic uh it seemed transparently obvious that this was a deliberate distraction from right examining your own appetites like that just seemed painfully obvious after having read the phila calia it's like why aren't you disciplining yourself why aren't you controlling your appetites and examining yourself why aren't you entering into that uh self-examination i mean that just just turned me off from watching any talking heads talking about religion because it seems like you're wasting time you should be confronting yourself and you're getting control of your appetites well and that's when i was reading some of the desert father's stuff i told kieran this the other day i'm like there's a discrepancy between that christianity um and the christianity of today and i said this looks different than catholicism and um you know what's what's wrong here or when i read saint anthony of the desert and i'm like there's there's something really pure and beautiful about this that seems to be like there's just so much stuff because of the variety in catholicism which i'm not necessarily poo pooing because i think it's really good david like you're saying it reaches out to a lot of people and hits different people where they're where they're at um it's like okay the variety is good but like there's this there's a loss of something there because there's so many variations it makes you go like yeah but what's like what's how do you cut to the chase and so um with hezekiah there's this direct route and it's like well we know that this this works and you should you should do this you should follow this this path here and avoid these things and just um you know go this this route my only um trepidation with some of those old works is that they're all written for monks um that's not my only trepidation but they're all written for monks so then you have to adapt that to like how does the modern married man apply this to their life you know in like a healthy way yeah and also like priests so i have a really smart priest you know um he's great um but he's super western and so if i said to him like hey chief talk to me about this he'd probably be like yeah that's that's a thing i don't really know anything about it and then i'd be like cool that's great you know who does that's like you have to you know you i don't i want there to be some kind of standardizations that i can you can seek that out and you can go and and get that for yourself and um because all cohesiveness seems to i wish i could do that little crying thing that he's doing now it's so cute with the eyes watering and the little broken throat so emotional uh it's very touching yeah but no i just want i want to talk about the connection sort of the bridge between the lisney brothers here i'm the bridge because uh to me it's all about vatican ii the teachings of vatican ii the universal call to holiness the structured uh nature of the hierarchy the economy of salvation the way that god almighty set up his church to serve everybody exactly where they are and the availability of this uh theosis or his hezekiah you call it hezekiah karen yeah it's available to everyone and it's not i i don't feel personally i don't feel like oh i wish i were orthodox so i could practice that no i feel that the church is encouraging me to practice that but it's also encouraging me to recognize my vocation in life which is to be a married man with no children and uh it's a rather unusual situation that i find myself in with my wife because of a particular attitude toward catholic church she was raised greek orthodox has a cultural hate does she cultural hatred does she believe any of the greek orthodox stuff does she like any of it no ah she just thinks it's the best she just i don't want to talk about because she doesn't like my talk about her publisher but she just thinks it's the best and that i should be orthodox not catholic because orthodox is the best and catholic is the worst but does she know anything or does she believe anything no but it's the best so it's a sort of a cultural hatred and a cultural pride which doesn't attract me to it but but the thing is uh i want to emphasize the teachings of vatican 2 because it's what's enabling us as catholics to adapt to the modern world and to see our place in the church and how everything we need you know everything we need to have that deep relationship with jesus christ that's what it's all about that's what vatican 2 talks about and emphasizes and there is a lot to unpack in the catholic church today and you want to talk about politics you want to talk about the hierarchy and the drama within that within that and it's bored with all that though like i'm so sick like i don't pay attention to it i don't pay attention to current events so okay when i'm reading when i'm reading the documents of vatican 2 or listening to an analysis of the documents of vatican ii it's abstract right i mean this is the role this is the role of the bishops this is the role of the priest this is the role of the lay people this is the role of the religious and so it's abstracted from current events current events drive me mad right the only reason i paid attention to current events over the past years because of donald trump and all he's ostensibly done for uh the children in the womb like that was my main reason why i was following donald trump so closely because he seems to have done more for the unborn than any other politician but uh i'm going to go back now to ignoring current events because joe biden the catholic is ramping up abortion already so i'm going to just go back to ignoring current and current events but we have everything in the church do you get bored with certain like things that are flavored explicitly catholic so such as like hope every time you say vatican too a little bit like no i'm not i'm on fire i'm on fire for the papacy and for the second vatican council it's like uh dude the only way is the only way that you can be like that you can just elicit more of a response and this probably says more about me than it does about anything else is if you were to bring up like magicoria or fatima i just simply because yeah and it has nothing to do with the complete demonic influence behind the other one i'll throw that one tell you david um i just because they're so up on catholic culture i just i want to vomit every time i hear about them because i'm just so bored i don't i could like oh did you guys hear about the ladies you messaged your megoria and all i'm thinking is when was the last time you opened your bible open go open your bible and they're like what's the bible you know it's the same people that don't you know like i i don't know i guess i just like a part of me hates right now folk catholicism because it's so like it's coming out of a really bad time and it just um well it's just i mean i'm sure i'm sure you want what's best for these these people that are getting excited about all the wrong things right like they're getting excited about all this stuff i'm sure you won't definitely i'm sure you want what's best for them right yeah it's just it's just like um it's just like seeing the same episode of a television show over and over again eventually you just you you regardless of like the content you're gonna hate it you're gonna just be like i can't i've seen that so many times i can't even i could change it to the next one yeah i'm not exposed to people's enthusiasm for for anything catholic i don't have anyone around me that's enthusiastic about the catholic church i don't have any i don't watch any catholic media that shows people that are excited about the catholic church so i'm completely out of touch with that i'm not i'm not uh i mean i i can understand what you're talking about with right the uh the revulsion or the the disgust that you might feel but i mean you always have to remember to connect that to your own pathetic uh foolishness right and to yeah well acknowledge it yeah i prefaced it with that yeah i just acknowledged that you are proud and that you feel superior to another human being which is not a good idea right as long as you know that yeah but i don't feel superior to those people i just can't stand i just can't stand hearing the words fatima and magicoria literally it's working uh no i definitely do and i do with isolated incidents but i'm double minded so it's something that's always combative it's never something that's just unchecked and like i'm never like like oh this group of people they're dumb i'm like oh this group of people and then i'm like you're cheering for that i'm like you're cheering for them yeah yeah yeah absolutely i just don't i just don't wanna i'm just so tired of like the fact that fatima was the main message of um you know the 20th century in catholicism when it's just like hey you guys remember that and it's like why yeah i do but like can't we talk about something else can we do something else you know because it it seemed to me that the same people that would just go to church every sunday receive communion and were just like joe six-packs those are the same people that i just always associated with like um these popular apparitions and um and our dad our dad is a big lover of magigoria and um uh he um he's not obsessed with it by any means but he's always like he's always you know thought that it was legitimate he's like no a lot of good stuff has come from this and um there's actually this there's this small faction of catholics they're not small anymore that have come out of magicoria um and i won't name them but they have all of these different types of um these different types of devotionals that have sprung from this david and they're even more annoying and so like you have the divine will um uh devotion and and i like aspects of this one but the flame of love devotion and um uh like oh i forget i forget some of the other things that have come out of this but like these things that they're always um ever since i i listened to um jimmy aiken talk about this and like talk about how very similar this phenomenon was to the ufo phenomenon that would occur he basically said there's this formula that like every couple years there'd be a ufo book that would come out and the person would claim that they had some kind of experience that built on the um that built on the uh the experiences of somebody else and um but they have revealed more and somehow in the economy of things they're receiving more than that person then they're going to give you something that you didn't get before and um and the more that i look at these like um certain devotionals and catholicism i'm like that's doing the same thing and jimmy aiken pointed that out as well so you have saint teresa's little way and then you have another saint who came 20 after 20 or 30 years afterwards and hers is called the littlest way and it's like and it's like perhaps it's legitimate i don't want to take a steaming dump on something that could be legitimate but like i'm going to try to use my orthodox method of not visualizing anything ever right now right no i know right steaming dump no but you see you see something like that and i'm like you know i'm always afraid of being tricked and i feel a lot like i'm being tricked here and so you have that with this luisa picareta stuff that's going on now where this woman do you know the saint that she i think she's up for canonization but dude volumes upon volumes of her work has been analyzed where she supposedly received all of these um revelations from god and they're just so excessive they're so excessive and um daniel o'connor he's really he's on fire for the lord he's really cool but um his work with the divine will stuff it just every time i hear it it just screams heresy to me and i can't pinpoint what it is and at first it attracted me um but now the more that i hear about it i'm like this is there's something really wrong here the explicitness the extremeness of this it seems like it's it's adding on to biblical revelation it's almost as like as if it's like yeah here's the gospel but here's the super grace right right and we're going to give it to you and it's like um which like from you look at it and you read it you're like this seems really cool this seems really neat um but like there's just like there's so many holes in in those things that it's just like i don't even want to look at that anymore it's just so irritating because i just feel like i feel like everything is a trap and i just um i feel like inflamed i feel like a big open nerve and so then anytime something like that comes towards me um i just want to like i just want to run from it because i if not i'll vomit with rage and so then like looking back and looking backwards is the only safe thing and so you know you read something um um that's a bit older you read ancient christianity and you're like oh this feels a little bit better because this was back when they didn't have this fringy crap that they had to deal with they were just like trying to convince people that mary was the mother of god because they knew that if you took away um her motherhood then you could take away the divinity of jesus and so it's like yeah i want more of that and i want less of this other stuff with this italian saint who supposedly received a whole bunch of stuff and is you know wearing the biggest crown in heaven next to such and such a person because uh look at all she did and um you know i don't know maybe i'm just bitter but i want to get kieran's thoughts on yeah yeah um i think okay wow um in a nutshell because i do have to wrap it up here in 15 minutes yeah or less so i think this is this is again going back to the desert father thing first when i read the when i read the contemporary saints of the orthodox church there doesn't seem to be such a huge divide between them and the desert fathers or the patristics and except for their speaking out against um heretical or sectarian groups because obviously when the desert fathers were around they were basically just fighting against nominalism which is why they went out into the desert because they realized that christianity was just becoming too much of this uh easy thing there was no cost to it anymore so when i read somebody like saint piecios or elder afram or saint joseph pause that for a second have you heard of any of these david only read through him are they any of them in the uh philocalia no so these would all be contemporaries so they would all be 20th century oh no um so uh so just as for instance one of my favorite saints of the orthodox church is this is a saint by the name of paisios and he is born arsenios and he he uh was born in 1924 and lived until 1994. you mentioned in your last interview with me yeah he is um the more that i read about him the more that i pray to him the more that i have interactions with him the more um the more i start to in the orthodox church we call it the fronima of the church the mindset of the church the whole ethos so our connection just as you guys would have you know the the state's post you know schism you would you would look to a saint like saint teresa of avila or saint francis of assisi and say yes when i when i'm close to them i'm closer to the church of christ from your perspective right you're putting on the mindset of the church when you read these saints which is why it's unchristian to not read the lives not god but from what we say in the orthodox perspective is that we know that we know that we know that grace is within the church we just don't know where else it is so we're not gonna say that grace is definitely in uh this presbyterian church over here we're not gonna say that grace is over in the catholic church we're not gonna say that grace is you know with god forbid well god don't forbid but the jehovah's witness or some other crazy sectarian group i'm sure there's grace working there's grace working all throughout the world but we just know that it's in the orthodox church and we see that captivated from the time of pentecost all the way up into our our modern day saints of the orthodox church and there there are elders alive today who literally their faces shine like the sun just as moses when he came down from sinai and and just this is the that's the orthodox ethos so all that to say um i think what aiden's kind of getting at is that the overarching issue or maybe problematic um part on on on the part of catholic sort of fanaticism would be that there is such a there's such a fixation on this thing here and this thing here and this thing here and you get all these sort of little groups and what i personally see it as and i don't mean it to be offensive but when i personally see a lot of this sort of catholic devotions to be it's very similar to pentecostalism in a lot of ways because it's kind of just like a free-for-all if you will and i can't again pass a judgment and say well there is no benefit coming from that there is no fruit coming from that but at the same time i can look at it and say yeah but it's still dangerous like i personally wouldn't do it and i would advise somebody who i love probably not to get involved with it either like my dad spent 12 years praying the saint bridget prayers so that he would have x amount of time out of purgatory that's like that's kind of autistic like that's like very like that's like very point counting and and it's like that seems like an ad extra to the gospel which is basically just union with christ through christ's salvific work in our working with the grace that he has given just us reaching out and taking hold of the gift that he's giving us that is that is salvation but when you add all these extras on to it they might be true i can't say for certain if they're not you know if they're true or not but i would i would guess that um if it's an addition to the gospel message then it's probably best to stay away from it and that would be the politest way one thing i would say is that um first of all uh in terms of apparitions they're all optional like even the approved ones are optional you don't have to believe them uh and there's nothing contained within those operations that which are approved which contradicts or adds to the gospel so everything there's only one public revelation and it's uh public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle and so uh there's no risk as a catholic if you're a faithful catholic following the teachings of the catholic church there's no risk of going beyond the gospel okay that's number one number two uh we are being guided and directed to what is essential for our salvation but there's so many shiny toys i guess that's one way we way we can put it like oh this devotion that devotion these sorts of things but we are sternly warned by the church to avoid taking on too many devotions or getting distracted by our devotions or completely you know basically what it boils down to is it's very easy to completely miss the point of religion and uh there's a famous catholic saying that religion is for those who lack faith right religion is for those who lack faith so what we the goal is to have faith right the goal is to hey guys uh i am super sorry my wife is having a panic attack right now okay i just got a text message i love both of you very very much i love you too and i love you too buddy well peace out we'll talk to you soon good luck to your wife all right we're praying for her now pray for you buddy i love you guys talk to you very soon thanks for doing this all right thank you guys bye karen peace it something i said no i'm kidding i'm kidding is his wife uh prone to anxiety attacks yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i went through that happening like a late adolescent in my early 20s i went through that for a year it's very very very scary it's not fun i had a i had a i don't know if it was a panic attack or if it was an anxiety attack at work um because i i get i mean um yeah but usually it's um when people say that they have like a panic attack usually they say they feel like they have the sensation like they're going to die i didn't have the sensation that i was going to die but i felt this overwhelming um anxiety for yeah for like i don't know three hours it was it was really gross it was awful it was dude it's so tiring um it's really yeah the job's been tough that day was really gross and um it's uh one of those things i'm like i i don't ever want to feel that again i like i almost left that day i almost bounced out of there they're like what's gonna make you feel better i'm like leaving and never coming back yeah you know but peace peace is so um valuable but i learned that this past year has been rough for me because i haven't had access to the sacraments as much and i lost my peace a couple of times and it's uh i talked to you about that privately and it's not uh it's not good we're so fragile we're so vulnerable to demonic attack too and i know i'm dumb dude i uh i don't i don't want to go back to uh being a plaything of satan and his demons because it's really not fun well aren't you always because i feel like i always am i feel like i'm just like i'm easily roped into it i feel like um you know what i mean and then like like i i even get tricked into like thinking something and i'm like great i just disconnected my soul from the church and it's like you didn't even sing you just thought about sinning yeah you know there's a palpable difference like what i what i went through and i explained it to you and your brother i'm not going to talk about it publicly just sure too embarrassing but what i went through i mean is like i literally am i've opened the gateway to the demons and they're they're playing with me and i have to get to confession as soon as possible and as soon as i got to confession bang i had peace and so i know that i am a disgusting sinner unworthy of salvation but i also know that i'm in the state of grace because i went to confession right and i know that i want to keep going to confession and availing myself of the sacraments especially confession in the eucharist because even though i know that left to my own devices i'll just welcome the demons in again i will right i've proven that even though i know that god still loves me he wants me to be saved he wants me to avail myself of the sacraments in a worthy manner and to avail myself of prayer better and better and this is the focus of my uh catholic way of life and that's why i don't see a big big difference between the glorious way of the orthodox church that your brother was talking about and bragging about and rightly so because it is something that i think is sorely lacking in most christians right but there's not a big distinction between that glorious way and the way that christ is leading us as catholics toward and it really is a very very simple difficult but simple approach that we are called to take with with our faith right and to not get caught up in religion is a very very important uh part of that not getting caught up in religion so you can have that faith you can have that fresh spontaneous love and uh have access to that grace right yeah yeah i concur i it's funny though because you talk about the way you talk about confession is the way that i talk about it um people um i was envious because kieran was talking about communion the other day and george was talking about communion and they were just like basically it's like race just like rains down upon everybody at divine liturgy and i'm like man that's dope um like we got to start talking about mass the same way yeah um but i was thinking like i've um i've i have a real struggle with communion just like concentrating and focusing and treating it the way that i should confession no confession like i feel a physical like there's a physical component to confession that is is immediate and it's like yeah yeah people will be like well that's just psychological and it's like no it's not because like because you know like this i didn't there's i mean there is a psychological component obviously but like if i tell you david like if i list off all the sins that you know i've committed to you and you're like yeah man that feels good there's a sense of camaraderie where we both like talk about like how ugly we are i mean there's something nice about that but like that's not like that it's just not the same thing there's something there's something very viscerally real happening at confession um that i've been blessed with and i feel like you've probably been blessed with feeling too where you walk out of there and you're just like free you know wondering how long it'll take you to to get to you know dirty that's never again never ever again it's but yeah the path the path is um simple but i i convolute um treacherous everything yeah you're over complicating your faith walk i think um and the nice thing about having a brother like kieran is he can really cut to the chase and everything he's emphasizing i think is what you and i and every christian needs to hear right which is don't get distracted don't get distracted don't allow yourself to get distracted just because it's a religious thing that you're distracted by doesn't mean you're not distracted right right i mean look at the jews in the time of jesus were they religious or distracted well both they were distracted by religion right they couldn't see what was right in front of them jesus christ so it's the same thing with us we need to get beyond that uh that shallow and lazy religiosity and get to the hard work of self-discipline and uh self-control fortitude and temperance and i mean it's lent now right so i'm trying to be good i'm trying to be self-disciplined but i mean you know by now that i'm not exactly you're awful i hear like a hero of self-discipline self-control especially when it comes to food so i just dude you and every other person in north america i like to cheat that's one thing i like about lanterns like oh i'm going to cheat a little bit now i'm going to have like i'm going to have what i'm not supposed to have taken you do sundays yeah i do sundays sunday is my cheat day oh because i don't even go in your food yeah yeah yeah um is that a type of thing sunday's a cheat day i don't know there's debate on that some people are like oh we don't do that and a lot of people are like no it's fine sunday's a feast day i don't i don't see what that's an issue i pray that the glorious mysteries on sundays only the rest is historical during that oh really yeah oh that's brutal why that's uh that's too much sorrow it's no not at all it's actually it's cool i mean no i'm terrible dude my uncle mark and i've had lengthy discussions about like how the sorrowful mysteries are the best ones yeah we're just like yeah i love the ones where jesus suffers because he he caused that and it's yeah i mean yeah but at the same time though there's this identification with that we're like it's probably disgusting it'll probably like hey we gotta talk about this at some point my favorite my favorite mystery is is um the crowning of thorns i don't know what it is about the crowning of thorns but the idea of them of a man of sorrows where i'm like i just want to go up to that dude's feet and i want to kiss them and um maybe it's just like metal you know maybe it's just like there's something really like brutal

CVS Live Guest - 2021-09-18 - Alex vs. Kieran

yeah so we're live uh i'm here with alex and kieran how are you guys doing what's up yeah i'm all right nice to have you uh nice to have you guys on here both of you together i don't often do one-on-one uh as the moderator but i'm just going to sit back and let you guys uh discover what topics are most interesting for you to to discuss i'm not going to say anything unless you uh you know specifically call on me so you guys just start talking i think he wanted to talk about textual criticism but you can take the conversation any way you want to go uh kieran you may as well start and uh you just have at it yeah sure um so alex did you want to start with that textual criticism you wanted to start talking about the actual uh historical veracity of scripture or what were you interested in in particular any questions right off the bat that you wanted to kind of probe into um yeah so there's so i mean i guess we should start with textual criticism because that's what this was about originally and then if it goes in another direction we can just follow that um sure so just to be clear so i'm not like even entirely sure what textual criticism is entirely about i tried to do some research last night and this morning um i was just wondering if you would be uh if you would agree with the definition of you know something along the lines of um the discovery and reading of manuscripts and collating the readings in them against other copies of the text correct so it's like it's compare and contrast to see what kind of variants that you would get textual variants um you know so examples of like perhaps a manuscript a full manuscript of matthew dating to like 300 or 400 a.d or something compared to another uh copy of matthew perhaps from a different region in the same time period or maybe an older fragmentation of it something like that and then looking to see if the reliability between the um you know describing of it from one copy to another has been accurate or has been altered in some way and typically from there then you can get into the specifics of whether or not the textual variant that you might see is something that is like astronomical that's going to change the doctrine of that particular text so like a good example which this is a false example i don't know of any major textual variants but let's say that we found it an example in um in um i don't know let's take like matthew what is that humming in the background does anybody else hear that i hear it i don't know what it is oh okay no worries um so let's just say like let's just take the virgin birth or something like that and we would just say uh in one copy of matthew it talks about the virgin birth but instead of saying that it was a virgin in the next copy that you compared it to it actually said young woman that would be a huge textual variant that would cause concern for the textual critic whether they're um christian or none and there's many textual critics who are not christian most a lot of them are atheists actually but that's neither here nor there but it would cause concern for okay well then which one is actually authentic and then you would try and narrow it down from there and a smaller example would be something like what would be known as like a a minor or um you know uh it would be like a minor textual variant so like jesus was baptized in the river jordan and then in another copy you had jesus was baptized in the river it would be something that okay it doesn't say the river jordan in this one maybe they're talking about a different river but ultimately it has nothing to do with the theophany altogether of christ being baptized by john the baptizer and having the descent of the holy spirit coming down upon him with the words this is my son with whom i am well pleased you would still see all the elements there to make up the basic doctrine of the baptism of jesus christ for instance so and then i mean we can talk about specific things like that i'm more interested i guess in the history in the the historicity um you know whether it's like the dating of the gospels who wrote the gospels etc that kind of stuff and i'm sure you're probably i'm sure you're probably more interested in that too just because when you get like textual criticism is very hard and the problem with it in in christianity specifically is the fact that we have such an over abundance of manuscripts that it's very cumbersome to go through all of them with the different languages they were translated into and the thousands upon thousands of different copies that we have to where you have to know how to speak like 10 different languages just to be able to compare and contrast you know a decent amount of the manuscripts themselves so um it gets very technical and there's only there's only a handful of textual critics in the world that are actually competent enough to do um well i guess yeah we can what do you want to start with specifically well did you have any one did you have any one particular point in regards to let's just say the new testament let's just keep it in the realm of the new testament for now did you have any um one issue i know you had mentioned before um i think when talking with david in the first conversation about whether or not the people who have the gospels assigned to their name are actually the ones who penned them yes so that was something i was going to ask you um is that your perspective do you think that um for example do you think luke wrote the gospel of luke and mark wrote the gospel of mark and such yeah yes i do um so this is one we're going to kind of get into the difference between and this is what i said to you before a little bit that we spoke previous to this on private message about what the difference between orthodox and catholic views of authority have to do with the um the protestant view of authority so i'm not familiar how or i'm not i'm not aware of how familiar familiar you are with the distinctives between the different traditions of christianity as a whole but basically in protestantism there's this idea that everything that we get as far as matters of faith and morals come ultimately and infallibly down through the text of holy scripture but someone like david and myself even though we're part of different traditions him as a as a catholic and myself as an eastern orthodox christian we wouldn't find an issue with having another infallible source of authority outside of scripture in fact scripture itself would necessitate that because we have to have people that can infallibly state what scripture is because scripture does not validate itself it doesn't it doesn't have an infallible table of contents to say matthew should be in the book or in the in the bible as a whole nor does it say that matthew wrote the gospel of matthew and this for an orthodox christian which is the the particular tradition um i'll be defending christianity from is actually um not a problem for us whatsoever because the tradition of the church tells us that matthew wrote matthew you can't debunk it as a skeptic as whether whether you're an atheist skeptic or you're a protestant skeptic or you're a hindu it doesn't matter if you have any form of skepticism towards whether or not matthew wrote matthew the only way that you're going to be able to disprove whether or not he wrote it is if you give a super late date for it and most scholars would agree that that's not the case so it leaves a really small small area by which it's possible for matthew to have not written matthew and all uh the consensus as we go further and further down the line of textual criticism and we continue we continue to discover more and more copies and earlier manuscripts we see that it's it's almost um infinitesimally small of a chance that it wouldn't have been written by saint matthew and you could argue well maybe it was somebody who wrote at the same time that matthew was alive but it wasn't matthew himself they just wrote matthew's name on it to give it some form of authority and that could well be the case but there's no way you're going to be able to to prove that emphatically because it's down the annals of history and so we just can't say he did or did not write um can i just ask what date do you think would be like too late for matthew to have written it like probably somewhere between like 80 to 100 a.d that would that would be a really really liberal leaning estimate of when it was written and a more conservative would be somewhere between like the 60s and 80. okay because according to the most reliable source in this this basically gives what it considers to be the current like scholarly dating and why and it puts it at 80 to 90 ce and let me guess does that um does that put it does it talk about the destruction of the temple um that's one of its three yeah okay so what's the presupposition behind the destruction of the temple and the gospel of matthew having to have been written after that happened i don't know i'm not like the expert here well well i mean and um i'm not so the presupposition behind that would be that in order for matthew to have predicted the destruction of the temple um in jerusalem in 70 a.d um the presupposition is well that's impossible people can't predict those sorts of things that's a supernatural occurrence so it's a miracle of sorts and so the the undergirding presupposition behind it is well then it must have been written after 70 a.d and that's one of the top reasons why liberal scholars would give it a later date but if your presupposition is that it's possible for somebody to even guess that the temple were to be destroyed in 70 a.d and they just they just made a really good prediction and guess they didn't even prophesy it or anything like that then uh it's still a possibility that it was written before 70 a.d so that's kind of uh that's a problematic reason for giving it a later date i would i would think but yeah so i know what you mean but i guess um given that we're talking in the realm of history and like no one here was there we i i think if you're talking in the realm of probabilities it seems far more likely to me that it was just written afterwards as opposed to it was written before and he either had some kind of supernatural uh future telling ability or he just made a really good guess uh that that could be but again it still leaves you in the realm of then okay well are you going to rely on because both you and i we're both now in a position where we have to say okay so we're gonna leave it basically up to chance that our position is correct would you would you agree with that um maybe not up maybe up to chances a bit much but i would say while i can't be certain i think um if i started with no presuppositions about like anyone's uh like like if i assumed that the person who wrote it didn't have any kind of supernatural ability um if if i start with that then i think i can reasonably get to with within reasonable doubt i can get to 80 to 90 a.d so so i don't want to i don't want to mischaracterize what you said but you said that if you can start with the assumption that somebody didn't have the ability to predict is that what you said um kind of i guess it's like um because well i start with that assumption only because i'm yet to observe anyone predicting that something that crazy so okay um so the only reason that i bring that forth is to say excuse me for anyone listening i've just talked with you guys beforehand but i have a sinus infection um but the reason why i brought that forth is to say that a negative um presupposition is just a positive for something else so if you would say i don't have the presupposition that somebody can predict something then your presupposition would be that tentatively somebody cannot predict something and again it kind of leaves us at those odds of okay well which is which is plausible which is possible both are plausible both are possible and i would say that if you looked hard enough i'm sure you could find recent examples of somebody predicting something and getting it pretty spot on it would just be a matter of of going and looking for that so it kind of leaves us in a quandary with that i mean there's other things um there's other things that are talked about in the book of matthew i think that um could lend credence to the dating but again it can kind of go both ways like you have um for instance so and this is these are some of my old notes but um in um in other books outside of scripture we have like we have uh what are known as the church fathers who i'm sure you're somewhat familiar with but we have early church fathers their attestation to the um authenticity of the scriptures that are in question my cat's on the table right now sorry if you see her but you have somebody like irenaeus for example talking about the penning of the gospel of matthew being done at the same time that peter and paul were in uh were preaching together and um this would have been sometime in the 60s a.d so again that would fit into the narrative that matthew was written prior to 80 a.d or the destruction of the temple in general so um you have little tidbits like that but again it's kind of just a guessing game i would say that um if you were to go a little bit further you'd have to start to dig into some of the presuppositions behind the interpretation of the data that's actually there you see what i'm saying kind of yeah um i i actually don't know too much about you know like early church fathers and stuff but uh i do kind of search this quickly but um one thing that you said that caught me i wouldn't say off guard but um you said uh something along the lines of a negative presupposition is a positive presupposition of essentially the inverse right like tentatively yes but i i mean i think that that's um i'm not sure if i would count it as a presupposition at all it's more just withholding judgment until something but it's based but it's but it's based off of sensory data is it not i guess um yeah i guess i i mean when i say you said you haven't you said you haven't experienced anybody else uh you haven't witnessed anybody else predict anything so all sense data so far that you've coalesced since you've been alive has not led you to believe that people have predicted anything correct uh well within i mean like we're talking about a very specific prediction here but yes right but i mean that would lean i'm just speaking in generality so you could say like oh kieran predicted that his wife was going to come home and yell at him because uh you know he didn't uh he didn't wash the dishes or something that's a different sort of prediction than saying um a plane is gonna fly into my house in eight days from now or something like that obviously one is inferred from the circumstances around me and another one is seemingly not inferred from anything it's just a flat prediction um so yeah there could be some sort of a difference there but um nonetheless you would essentially say that as far as the extraordinary types of predictions your sense data has not gathered anything that would lend credence to it right yeah okay okay um so i guess i mean it kind of leaves us at a standstill with um with dating um but again and and and i i i don't want to beleaguer the point but we have to talk about um i'm always going to be upfront about what my presuppositions are and my my first one of course is that the trinity exists the triune god exists and that he has a way to communicate to humanity and that way is through his prophets through the scriptures and through his holy church and so if i have one of those three things whether it's a prophet or the scriptures or the church if i have one of those things that's saying something that i can't glean all the knowledge from so in scripture i would say that there's material sufficiency for what's in there though there might not be formal sufficiency for all the things that i need as a christian i would look to one of the other sources then to give me what the um what the formal sufficiency is so if i didn't know that matthew wrote the gospel of matthew which scripture doesn't say that matthew wrote matthew i would look to one of those other presupposed authorities to say matthew wrote matthew in this case the tradition of the church of which scripture is encompassed in scripture is a part of the tradition so for me it's not an issue because i i admit that it's a it's a it's a belief um and i think at some point as a skeptic you can kind of stay in the realm of well we just don't know we just we based off the evidence that could go either way um but you know as a christian you take that leap of faith i suppose and you have certitude as far um that would be like a point of contention this idea that um having faith is like i don't know if good thing is the right word but like i whenever i whenever it comes like making decisions for me especially about like what's true and what's not i try and start with as little as i can and i think sure i think it's possible to start with nothing and to think it's possible okay like so you're like if you start with no pre-pre-subs like no ideas to begin with i think you can build up and possible um i don't think so that wouldn't that that would encompass a blank slate i'm not sure what you mean by a blank slate but um so if if you i mean how old are you i'm 16. okay so even by the time that you have cognitive reasoning you you don't have a blank slate anymore right you're starting to be shaped and formed and this is starting to undergird presuppositions it's starting to form presuppositions within your psyche that you're just not going to be able to get rid of you can change them but you can't be without presuppositions i mean in a pragmatic sense so i don't you don't really forgive me if i'm wrong are you are you actually an atheist or are you just kind of like you're just purely like searching and you lean in that direction um i think i've done my due diligence when it comes to the research of arguments for god and i think i can fairly say that none of them have convinced me okay that's fair enough i'm an atheist in that sense but i wouldn't i probably wouldn't make the claim that there isn't a god that there can't be a god but only that there isn't sufficient reason to believe from that perspective okay um so so you've gone through all these you've gone through arguments you've been pretty uh scrupulous with with going through um and so now you started to form um a world view even albeit a world view that's not completely solid yes um yes okay okay um yeah so what i was saying was is that in a pragmatic sense i don't think it's i don't think that it's possible from a purely materialistic or atheistic standpoint to to actually walk that out so when i say something like well you can't get away from presuppositions it just means that face value what it sounds like because you've already started to garner a thought process and a way of thinking about things that's going to naturally lead you to certain conclusions and so right now your your underlying presupposition would be something along the lines of there's no sufficient reason to believe therefore i withhold belief and i think that you're going to continue to filter things through that worldview and whether you know it or not it's going to come with some presuppositions that you're not going to be able to live out consistently so you said something interesting to me earlier you said that when you know in searching for truth i try to i try to follow what's true and i would simply ask you well why why would you follow something that's true because it sounds like a value judgment um but i don't know where you get an ought from an is if if something is true why is it the case that i should even believe that thing or follow what is true is that is there something um inextricably good about truth um so that's like an an ethical question which is um i do consider different from like factual questions but um i would say that so i'm not sure where i fall on the idea of absolute morality from a secular standpoint i mean i don't get it i don't think you can get absolute morality um but i think if we start with the pre i think uh so on the on the topic of morality yes i do think you do single presupposition um but then beyond that are you apps are you absolutely sure um i don't even know what that question means so so you said that you said that you're not sure if there are absolutes um are you certain are you absolutely sure that you're not sure that there are absolutes yeah okay so there's one there is one thing that i can tell you um i guess there's there's one thing that's absolute then and that's me i like i think therefore i other than that other i think other than that we're talking about the realm of um the physical and not like my psychological state or brain and bad ideas i don't think you can really uh accomplish anything in terms of absolutes well um that's an issue because i'm because i'm talking to alex i'm not talking to myself i hope i'm not i'm pretty sure i'm pretty sure i'm not talking to myself here's the interesting thing people talk a lot about like is anything real and i think i think you can say yes well it depends on how you define reality um if you define reality or something is real as in like if i went away it would still be there i don't know but from a from a functional standpoint i think the best way to define reality is what i experience like i see my wall i can i i think at least i think i'm touching the wall i think well because i can't be sure i you know i think i'm touching the wall so to all intents and purposes it's real it's real to me okay steve my cat i'm sorry my cat is being such a pain in the butt um i don't know if you can see her right now she's super cute but and she just wants attention but she's super annoying um can you say that again alex i'm sorry dude yes i wanted to make sure i wanted to make sure she didn't knock over my phone that's fine um so essentially um people talk a lot about the idea of like isn't real right and yes i would say from a philosophical standpoint where the definition is usually something along the lines of if i went away it would still be there right like it's not just a mental construct so here's a book on my desk if i go upstairs into the next room is it still going to be on my desk because it's still existing on my desk well i have no idea no i'm saying i'm just saying that's that's what you're saying right yeah i'm what i'm saying is like you cannot know that fact it is impossible um but what i can tell you is that from a from a practical standpoint i think a more useful definition of reality is essentially what i experience like i experience the wall it's it's real like that's all i can tell so i might as well use that as a definition and even if i'm a brain and a vet i've i've thought about this and i think i've come to a reasonable conclusion even if i'm a brain in a vat i'm not that brain is not aware of that so it's not like i can make any claims to knowledge about brains and vats outside of this universe i guess my question to that would be more of um an emotional appeal but what what is the point then what is the point of even asking the question am i a brain in a vat if you're a brain um i think because it kind of it just like it just ad infinitum just kind of like reduces to absurdity um maybe um i guess i value truth and i can uh so there's one thing that i value fundamentally and that's um that's basically well-being human well-being well well-being in general well-being of sentient creatures is like the core of my moral philosophy and then i think from there you can derive that um almost as a rule of thumb true things increase well-being and false things decrease well-being okay and then you have to speak but you have to define well and being when you talk about truth and advancing the cause for well-being and then then far from doing that you have to then say well it's well it's a good thing to advance well-being like if you were to say my well-being is making sure that um i i live according to the moral law that i've constructed in my mind and i live a healthy life and i have you know i get married and i have kids and i do all this kind of stuff and i i help my neighbor and that sort of thing um well then the question becomes is that a better option than someone like ted bundy who just wanted to kill a bunch of women for his own well-being but that decreased well-being as a whole but who's to say because the person that is in their own brain in a vat is their own brain in a vat according to them well-being is hurting other people yeah but okay let's let's think about it like this if there was a um if there was a 50 50 odds that you were the only real thing and i think it's reasonable to say that it's 50 50 because we actually can't know um if if there's 50 50 odds that i am the only real person alive and everyone else has a mental construct of my own brain which is in a vat um and i go and i shoot someone right if you think about this from a value perspective there is a 50 50 chance that i have just taken a human life which is in my opinion probably one of the worst things possible in my moral framework and a 50 50 chance that i've done nothing wrong and made myself ever so slightly happier if we were to say that me making myself happier as a value of one and me killing someone is a value of negative a thousand and then you multiply that by the odds of each one happening you come up with a general value judgment of uh what negative 499.5 okay that's too much math for me buddy i would simply say i would disagree with the first premise i wouldn't say that it's a 50 50 chance that you're the only person that exists or that i'm the only person that exists from my perspective i wouldn't say that it's 50 i wouldn't say it's a 90 10 percent chance because that would require all these things that i have um experienced to be a mental construct of my own mind such things that like could you imagine like could you imagine driving in your car and turning on a crappy like pop station and being like oh i'm the cause for that crappy pop station and the terrible music that's there i would never personally write a song with this but here but you don't know but the thing is is that let's say i wrote but then i i wrote mozart's pieces so i'm really i'm brilliant enough to to have written those and constructed those in my mind i would disagree and say that that's out of the realm of uh what i uh what i'm capable of yeah so i sorry were you gonna say something else no i was just gonna say i so i just i just don't think it's a 50 50 chance that i'm the only thing that exists so i i know what you mean when you say like um but i i don't think this is where i think it gets really um difficult and weird almost because the brain that would exist as a physical mental construct in this universe and the brain that would exist in a vat outside the universe wouldn't have to be the same this you as a brain and well okay so the the you if we start with the so you're saying that the con you're saying i i know so you're saying the conscious part of me would not have to be the same as the mind of me that is unconscious or that is the one that is uh producing all of the things that i am experiencing through my consciousness is that what you're saying um the the conscious part of you would only have to be a incredibly small subset of the larger kind of brain behind the universe there's there's no reason why you the conscious part of you has to be as intelligent as mozart as long as the larger idea behind the universe is so so the the brain the conscious part of the brain the conscious brain that i am experiencing um would not have would be a subset you said of the brain outside of the universe yeah well if there is like like god if there was a god like sure but like i don't see why i should believe in that so well well but you just said because my my my kick back to you was i don't have the mental capacity to construct things like mozart's music and yours your rebuttal or your response was well that would be the subset of your consciousness that doesn't have the ability to do that but your brain in a vat outside of the universe is the one that actually constructed it so you're just the subset of that but it's all you right so if that's the possibility then it seems far more likely that the brain that is outside or the mind that is outside of the universe that i am simply a subset of is god because i don't have the capacity to do that you would be saying at the same time that the mind the same mind one that is a subset and one that is the larger cosmology or cosmological part of it are the same brain they're the same mind but they're one has the ability to do something that the other one doesn't and i would simply say that that's unnecessarily dividing parts of that mind that you're advocating for when a far better explanation would just be i am in the image of god the brain or the mind outside of the universe is god i am a subset of that i am a reflection of that and i don't have the same mental capacity that that mind outside of the universe has namely god so i would say that it's more of a likelihood that that would be the case rather than saying that my mind is playing tricks on me and what ostensibly what it would mean is that the divine mind or my mind outside of the universe would be lying to my subsetted mind and keeping abilities away from it um essentially to what to like to trick it into thinking that it's experiencing something it's not actually experiencing um maybe so there's two things here one is like depending on your definition of god a brain and a vat idea as i have proposed it would essentially be um you know because i i do agree that the two minds would need to be necessarily separate um so i guess say god but yes i'm not sure like the thing is like that's also why i don't say that um there can't be a god only that i don't see reason to believe in one in the same way that i say it's possible for me to bring it be a brain in an event but i don't see a reason to believe it like it just it just so happens that um i i set up my definitions of things and my frameworks of the world in a way that regardless of the situation i'm in i still lead to correct conclusions but it wouldn't be correct if it's all based off of your mind though it would just be your mind lying to your other mind well right but i that's still like i when i talk about reality as i said it's only what i experience so it doesn't matter if my mind is lying to me i'm still like when i'm talking about reality i'm still talking about what i experience which is like that is true that's that is the only absolute truth yeah but that that can't be the only absolute truth because the statement that's the only absolute truth would have to be an um i guess no definitely that's what it that's what it would mean you can't say that that would be the only absolute truth because by saying that you're then affirming that there are two absolute truths namely the thing that you're affirming but as far as i can tell this sorry go on go ahead no no go ahead um so i do experience things that's true um okay fine practice okay so i guess but you don't but but you don't know that you don't know i i do know that i do experience things that is like like i don't know if you experience things but i definitely well what is it well what is experience to you if i i you're saying that you experience that you're definitely experiencing something but that again it's just another truth claim you're just you're just you keep pushing the problem back a step you keep stacking things on top of each other that have no anchor or or justifiable reason for why they should be there i have no idea why i experience things but i do like i i think therefore i am and as a logical consequence my experiences are just me thinking things like when i see stuff the light that we see in the air as far as i can tell does not actually exist in the same way that we see things like our brain assigns similar values so then you're not experiencing it because you're not using your you can only use your senses to experience something yes i guess it would depend on our definitions of experience but when i talk about i experience something i mean uh can you look it up well yeah what what is it just look up what experience means let's just see let's just take like the webster dictionary um the oxford languages dictionary has a few different examples i guess the one that we're talking about here would be practical contact with and observation of facts or events and what do you observe things with well so this is the thing right i guess i can't really think of a better word than experience but i don't think i'm necessarily using it in this way so can i just like define it differently and maybe we can try yeah sure yeah so when i talk about experience i mean um it's like i think therefore i am i i think we can i think they're foreign i'm pretty sure we can agree on that uh are you sure that you're thinking if i'm so if i'm thinking something okay there's there's actually four absolute truths three of them are the laws of logic which i think um you have to assume yeah sure um and then i mean i i assume them i know you assume them too but i in and i mean if it's just your brain why would you have to take into account the law of non-contradiction well i have no idea but that's just how it let's put it this way when i experience things and i'll get back to my definition of experience in a second but all of my observations of what i call reality are consistent with the three laws of logic so i i think that's inductive proof of their truth um but inductive reasoning is problem yeah so i have no idea if they're absolutely true everywhere all the time they could actually but i i know like i have actually they are because i've never experienced anything ever to disagree with them but again so it's um this is really yeah define define experience again define experience again outside of the oxford dictionary not not from the oxford dictionary because that's things observed and you observe with your senses we've established that but give your definition of experience again i guess my definition of experience would be kind of yeah with my senses like um this so i'm trying to figure out if you can derive it from i think therefore i am but it's essentially like i think um well i don't think you can but yes i think we can reasonably say using your senses to feel things but your your cognitive state is based off yeah exactly so it's circular it's very so i know i exist and i know yes i do i don't know how but i'm thinking i mean but again it's because you're just you're just attaching a bunch of a bunch of presuppositions into what you are um and what existing is um okay so when i talk about existence i just mean a thing that has properties so like if i think then experience but you are thinking as a property okay but you said you're not sure if something exists if you are devoid of experiencing it so if you um if you left if again using the example of the book if you left your book um do you know for a fact that that book is still existing because you're saying it has properties that's your definition of existing is that it has properties but do you know that it always has those properties does it have the identity over time um it doesn't necessarily have those properties when i turn my back to it but every experience that i've had with the book has in the book has had those properties so it could just be that it is a figment of your imagination and the book doesn't really exist absolutely okay so then you can't be sure that anything exists except myself yes um i would i would again i would just i can't because i can't be a figment of my own imagination because but you're but you're garnering the idea that you exist from your senses which you're unsure if they are actually reliable or not i i think i think we might be using two different definitions of existence maybe i'm not sure like at the same time um but because it's like there's i think therefore i am because i have a property and therefore i exist but then um if i were to talk about so there's like two kinds of existence right there's having properties which i'm sure we can i hope we can agree like that that is a version of existence if something has a property it definitionally exists in some way um okay and then there's like the idea of like reality and existence in the philosophical con concept of like if i turn away is it still there like does it exist okay well what about metaphysical things like what about what about math math does math does math have properties to it that's something i've never thought of before so i might need a second to think but i think it might i think it might also fall under like a different category i'm sure yeah metaphysical category but it would still could be but it would still happen yeah it would still i mean you would you would agree that seven plus seven is going to equal the same thing it's going to equal 14 no matter where you're at right if we define seven and seven and plus equals and fourteen the same at every point yes well seven's not going to equal six at some point is it um if you're defining is getting crazy um i think i well i mean yeah if we're using the definitions of six and seven and plus and equals that we have today like yeah it's never gonna equal that's the law of knowledge okay well from there i mean again i would say that that the justification for believing in the the three laws of logic um in this case the law of non-contradiction would be grounded within a a a triad a theistic uh worldview specifically in the trinity itself um so i'm not arguing for like a generic sort of monotheism here but you said something interesting that led me to um think about the problem of the one and so have you are you familiar with the problem of the one in the many because this kind of gets into uh values of things how things are how things are abstracted and also how things um have identity so are you familiar with with that philosophical concept um i am now after googling it so it's the problem of finding the one thing that lies behind all things that's yeah i mean that's a super simplistic way of stating it but so in this case like you would have in the problem of the one in the many you would have basically what are known as universal abstracts or um concrete particulars so we could take for instance this soda can which is actually a perrier because they're delicious but a perrier can you could say let's just say soda in general you can save that on my desk so okay cool so um coke's better um so you have a particular you have a concrete particular there you have a soda can right or you have soda in general then you have the universal abstract which is soda in general right so you have soda and then you have an individual soda can so you have many and you have one obviously is the easy way of putting it but then you get into the question of kind of a chicken and an egg conundrum because you start to talk about for instance well does the thing that i'm saying is a soda can have identity because of the universal abstract behind it or does the universal abstract have meaning because of the concrete particular that i'm looking at in front of me um you understand what i'm saying what are you guys talking about i'm just like listening it's getting crazy can you um aiden if you're when you're not um speaking can you just mute them because it's it's kind there's a lot of like noise going on in the background i don't know how i'm driving my car i can't do that i think it's the wind this is my brother no there's literally no wind it's literally like the most windless that's did you close your window yeah there's no okay no okay no hey hey hey guys uh google meet is uh forcing us off in five minutes so why don't we just continue this conversation right now but we'll just i'll send you a new link like did you make a new link oh that's what that thing is i'll put it in the chat yeah send the new conversation ending in 10 minutes because i'm useless i'm just like hearing kieran talk and i'm like uh everyone get the chat okay you're the one alex can you still hear me buddy yeah no alex where is the agent i'm kieran's brother and i'm way better than him what's going on um the chat i i i have no idea yeah i'm in my phone hold on a second um i can try and like text it to you i guess um yeah wait can you send it um can you send it via telegram oh i sent it to him by his email i sent it to him by his email you should get the email all right oops sorry that was kieran let me do it to aid wait dude are we doing another here gotcha i'm waiting it's loading hold on golly boys hey oh aidan's in the new one kieran uh is not in the new one yet hold on hold on hold on there we go it's because my phone is going super slow i will be able to chat for long because i got to wake up early again and go back to work and that's where i'm leaving from now so i just you know i just wanted to like hop on yeah what the heck because i love attention and then i wanted to leave so why was that that's how i treat human beings alex i use them for what they can give me and then i i discard them so you sound like a smart young man hold on oh thank you you're welcome you're welcome okay we should all be here is that better yes we're all we're all what were we saying uh we were talking about uh it was the problem of the one in the many and the soda can okay and you asked me a question that i don't really remember i think it was something along the lines of like yes so it's it's getting into the um it's getting into the abstract particulars rather than the concrete particulars so it's basically asking does the soda can that's in front of me as a particular garner its meaning or its um predication on the abstract behind it or does the abstract behind it have meaning from the particular itself so it's the it's it's the the classic chicken and an egg basically so when you say that i'm not sure what you mean so like there is the idea of a soda can right yes the idea of this pepsi max can that i'm holding and but that only what i can tell you is that as far as i could tell that only exists because there is an arrangement of molecules and i look at that and i'm okay but so so again though um the molecules aren't telling you whether or not it's pepsi you don't have the eyes to see if the molecules if the molecular structure of it is pepsi or not and even if you did if you had no idea of what pepsi is because of the abstract universal behind it you would look at that molecular structure and say well what's that i've never seen that before i have no frame um there we go so kieran are you saying are you saying that whatever whatever universally designed uh defines what a can of soda is are you saying that that affects the particular organism you're talking about are you saying are you is the question oh does the individual can make up the concept of can or does the concept of can make up with the can is that what you're trying to say yes essentially that's pretty much exactly what i'm saying and then that gets into the exactly so and you could make that you can make that for anything so like if i were to ask you hey um uh aiden go ahead and imagine a dog for me just imagine a dog you would not be able to imagine that dog in your head without having a formal construction of what a dog looks like in your head right because there are many dogs but they're all different from one another they're all distinct from one another so you have the universal or the one concept of what a dog is and then you have many different examples of dogs but are those things deriving their characteristics or driving their um their their in this case their predication so their their dogness from the universality of what a dog is or is the universality of what a dog is determined by a particulate and the reason why it's a problem is because if you say if you say that while a dog derives its uh the concept of a dog derives its its meaning from um a particular then you're saying that nothing is really related to one another then a dog could be a non-dog a dog could be something completely else because you're just arbitrarily assigning one thing that you see in front of you with what a dog is and if it's a universal if they're if if if the meaning is derived from the universal behind it meaning that we know that a particular dog is a dog because we know what a universal abstract of a dog is then you would have to say that nothing is really distinct from one another so there is no distinction between any dog and the reason why this gets you to trinitarian theology where at least it might not be the only answer but it is one of the best explanations for why you have the problem of the one and the many is because god is both unitive and has real distinction in him as well and so you have these things held within perfect tension of one another so it would make sense to say that the things that flow out of god that god creates have that image that characteristic of the one and the many and you could take it from the genesis type of perspective of man being created in god's image you alex are a human being and i am a human being we share the same nature but we are distinct we are many um and is what our what is what our characteristics as human beings are derived from the concept of what a human being is in the universal abstract or is it the other way around i don't see this as a problem at all and um maybe i'm wrong here and i probably am but we'll see um so as far as i can tell um so first of all i'm going to talk about like experiences and reality here can we just kind of agree that things are real because otherwise i don't think we're going to make like that conversation on what is reality went on for a really we can put yeah we can put that on the back burner sure cool so i i experience things and um as a human over time i uh experience like let's say dogs right dogs i think dogs is a really good example um so i i see a creature right a moving body of molecules and let's say i just decided to call that a dog and i see like a very similar moving body of molecules i can just be like oh like they're close enough so um you experience things your mind then creates i guess you could say like an array of like everything that you've experienced and then it starts to categorize them by like oh like this is a dog because it's got four legs this bait this face structure for a tail but like this is a cat because the face structure is different but they're both under the you know category of animals and the category of animals is like under the category of life like it's just categorizations of molecules in motion yeah but that's not actually answering the question of where those categories come from and whether or not whether or not i mean because you're saying that it comes it's coming from these constructs in your mind but again the the the very real question behind it is then well you yourself are you a multiplicity or are you a unity is what is behind you unitive primarily or is it primarily distinctive particular many i don't know what you mean by um like what is behind me like if you're talking about the laws of the universe i have no idea if there's a unified theory of physics but i can tell you that i am made of a lot of molecules but if we're talking in categories i am one person like it just depends on how like what lens you're viewing it through i can be either you um say that again so i am it entirely depends on what you're asking by what is behind me because what's behind me fundamentally um is atoms electrons neutrons protons you know subatomic particles that build up my body but you might be are those are those are those related to one another i don't know i'm not enough in physics okay but i mean let's just let's just pretend that you are you don't have to get into the to the physics behind it but let's just say that i'm just asking are all are the atoms that comprise you alex are those things related to each other or are they are are they um primarily distinct from one another in particular that's a very very interesting question because um on like they're all atoms but that is in and of itself an arbitrarily defined categorization like we just kind of decide to call certain groups of subatomic particles atoms well the question here is not really the meaning or the or the predication of what constitutes an atom let's just talk about let's just say it's balls of light to the question the question is there a real distinction between them are they really particular or are they really unitive are they if they're if they're yeah like they would be dead they would be different they are particular so if they're if they're particular then that you can't say they're all atoms because they could be something else completely unrelated to it adam if you were to take it take it up into let's take it past the subatomic level or whatever let's just say apples okay if you had an apple in front of you and then you had many apples in front of you the question then becomes are the many apples related to one another can we really say that they're all apples and if you say yes you can say that they're all apples then you're drawing that from a universal unitive or abstract principle and if you say that there is no unitive abstract principle behind what constitutes an apple then you're saying that these things are not related to one another there's no unitive principle behind them and therefore they're particular therefore you've just forgotten what you have any knowledge that you have previously of apples you have to then throw out the window because you're not attaching it to a universal abstract of what constitutes an apple in the first place so when you say universal abstract do you mean shared between all conscious beings i would say no just the i guess if you were to take it down to um like a property level if you were to say something like um okay the thing that makes the apple really appley the appley part of it is the property that constitutes that it's an apple right okay and then you have another one and it has the same thing and so you say okay well then that's an apple too because it's sharing that same appleiness to it the predication is the property with which that thing's hot that thing holds and so therefore you can then say well yes this is an apple too but then it's totally hinged on the universal abstract behind it you see what i'm saying i do i i feel like i've answered that and maybe i'm wrong but it's just like so so there is um a perceived notion of appleiness in things that we see either something is an apple or it's not an apple right yeah yes okay so the definition of apple is arbitrarily defined by humans because because then i could say that this book that my bible is an apple and you would have to say well yeah it could be that's well from your perspective it might be but then we're speaking at how do you uh communicate with anybody will you establish a set of like like that's why i established like my the definitions of reality and existence and um perception that like when we were talking about that whole thought process um like we established those definitions right so that we were making sure that we were all in line yeah but what i'm saying is is that take it out of this context go up to the person on the street and say here's an apple i have for you and they say that's not an apple that's a pumpkin or you just farted in your hand and you tried to give it to me that's not an apple alex come on the it doesn't i'm i'm speaking in in um in generalities here there if if you're if you are def like nobody operates like that like i wouldn't go up to i wouldn't go up to my wife and be like hey here is here's the grocery list um now let me define what a grocery list is to you so that you can go to the grocery store and that we're on the same page there's a universal abstract behind what a grocery list is that my wife just knows okay that's that's a that's a grocery list i guess if i feel like that's more in the realm of linguistics and i have a friend who knows a lot about linguistics and i do not um but i could tell you that language is i mean that's but it coheres it coheres to one another right like it all it all envelops one another so if this part of the web doesn't connect to this part of the web then you obviously have some sort of an issue there so if you're talking about linguistics and you have to say well yeah but in linguistics or are inexplicable or are inexplicably tied to um are are tied to the problem of the one of the many which is tied to absolutes which is tied to the laws of logic which is all these things so you could say yeah i mean that's more of a linguistics thing but they all play into one another that's the problem with with foundationalism as a whole i would say is that you're starting somewhere and you're stacking things and if one thing is wrong the whole thing just crumbles but if you look at it from a coherentist type of view you're seeing that these things have um a real connection with each other not something that's conceived in your mind not something that's just like well we just arbitrarily chose to agree on the definition of what a water bottle is you know there's actually something behind the reality of the water bottle that you and i um you and i agree on on a presuppositional level and i'm saying that in the in the realm of philosophy you can't get away from the problem of the of the one in the many without having a principle that is itself one in many that has a unitive principle behind it but that has real distinctives at the same time um i i disagree because i do think that if you i when this conversation is over i'm gonna go and think about it for like six hours but uh all right cool this is like this is turning this is my head spinning around so we agree this is this is crazy so there is so you i i don't think my answer was wrong necessarily so you said that like basically it becomes impossible to communicate with anyone the moment anyone uses like their own definitions of things um um so there was should i wait for him to finish i don't know dude i have no idea hey david can i don't think he's him i don't think he can either bro i think he's away from his desk and he's just like picking up his voice all right alex listen to me keep speaking i have my bluetooth in but i have to go get a water from upstairs okay cool all right thank you so i hope you can hear me right now i can hear you right now yeah i can hear you great so um my idea is that concepts are they are arbitrarily imposed but there is almost a selection type process with languages where um it becomes beneficial for everyone to start using the same word for the same concepts which means that like like when i am talking about a water bottle right we have concepts of all water because it is pragmatic like it is practical and useful for people to have a shared concept of water is it good to be practical i don't know what you mean by it is evolutionary it is evolutionarily advantageous for someone to know what the other person is talking about when they say there's water over there i'm having a hard time um concentrating right now that's fine can you hear hom let me see i wish we could like yeah okay okay so i i've muted him i'll leave this in the chat i wasn't sure if that was i'm not tech savvy plus i'm on my phone so you probably can't do it for yourself but um so apparently yeah so he can unmute himself when he comes back all right cool so basically we've agreed upon arbitrary definitions for things and because it's uh socially advantageous it's evolutionarily advantageous and it helps us to square things away and get things done that's your that's your that's my explanation for why like everyone talks about the same thing when they talk about water okay look i that's i'm just saying like that's why i don't see any of this as a problem it seems to me that it all arises but the very notion but the very but the very notion of talk and talking is one and is one it goes into the problem of the one in the many does it yeah absolutely if you say the concept of talking and then you say alex is talking to kieran right now that is an abstract uh universal and now it's garnered down to the level of example through a concrete particular i might not even agree what talking is with you yeah you totally might not but that doesn't mean that i'm wrong okay but it still doesn't i don't care if i don't care if you're wrong or right that the the question is justification behind why your position should be held or why that why that is the case in the first place that's the that's the root of the issue is the justification behind it so it might very well be that i disagree with you that talking is when sound comes out of your mouth and it makes different vowels and consonants and it conveys meaning to you and i might be worse off for it but that still you wouldn't have a justification to say well i'm right in saying that talking is when vows and consonants come out through noise in your vocal cords and out to the world to where another human being can now take them in and understand what they mean so you still you still haven't explained how it's possible to garner meaning one way or the other whether you're deriving it from the concrete particular or you're deriving it from the universal what do you mean well what do you mean by like ghana meaning do you mean like um establish categories of things where you can then like give them to get to its very essence of what talking is so the talky the talkiness of talking is the only way that you can put it but to say like um okay so talking has the property of x y and z and then those things are fulfilled therefore i'm talking so now i have the universal um abstract which is all those things i just listed the x y and z and now i have the concrete particular that corresponds to it but you still don't have which one has given which one the meaning and you also don't have the justification for why it is if your version of talking why your concrete particular example of talking is um why that should be trusted by somebody else why that should be accepted wholesale by somebody else because my version of talking is actually um smacking my hands together and whatever noise comes from my hands smacking together that's actually talking okay you would disagree with that there were two questions there so the second one was why should my version or my definition i guess we might be able to say of talking um be used by anybody else right yes okay sorry there was a question before that i just want to write these down so i don't forget oh okay it's cool let me just well it might maybe i'll restate it um i don't remember what i said but i would just say that the reason i'll qualify it by saying that um the reason why i wouldn't have to accept it is because you said it's arbitrary you said that the way that we define things becomes arbitrary and it might be so socially advantageous to do so but that still doesn't give you the reason as to why i should accept it just because something is socially advantageous doesn't mean it's actually the correct or right thing it just means that most people have agreed upon it would you agree with that um yeah but i feel like you're starting with the premise and maybe i'm wrong here but that there has to be a correct or right definition of talking like there's just the definition of talking that most people use there's that there's a definition that basically everyone uses and then that's it well wouldn't you yeah i mean yeah that's all that would affirm i would say yes there's only there's only talking so we disagree the in the in the area of where that meaning for what talking is comes from you're saying it's arbitrary i'm saying it's not i'm saying it's founded in the one and the many and you're saying that well i don't really know about that but i'm just going to say that we've arbitrarily decided that talking is when words come out of your mouth so i think arbitrary might be the wrong word there um because arbitrary kind of implies that there's like no reason for it there's like a flippancy to it yeah yeah so it's like but it doesn't necessarily it doesn't necessarily have to be that you could say things are you could say that the actual word that is being because words are just invented right like we just make words up but we know that we know that there is um we know that there is a universal um behind it right but then we also know that there's a particular so the word itself or the thing that we have that's constructed in our mind so dog dog as a word that doesn't justify or explain away the particular examples of dogs nor does it explain the abstract universal behind it do you understand what i'm saying so even if we didn't have the word dog if we had no vocabulary for dog we didn't know what to call them we every time we saw them we were just like or whatever we just knew but we all had we would still have particular examples of dogs in our mind and we would still know that there's a universal abstract behind it because every time i see that thing that's the thing i don't have a word for oh look at that so so naming the thing uh arbitrarily doesn't get you away from it so the naming is arbitrary purely like it really is like words are just words yeah but the actual particular itself the object of the thing you're naming and then the universal the um the abstract universal behind it are not arbitrary and those things are in tension together because you can't define one without the other you can't define them individually otherwise if you say like i said before if you were to derive something and say well this this concrete particular exists apart from the um from the universal abstract behind it well then you're saying there's no abstraction behind it and you're saying those things could potentially not even be related to one another so this dog is not you know these two dogs are actually not dogs they might not be and if you do the opposite and say well we know what a dog is because the universal abstract is there but it's purely a universal abstract there is no particular concrete with it then you're saying that there's no distinction between my dog do you have a dog i have two they're amazing okay so you're saying that my golden retriever there's no real distinction between my golden retriever over here in the united states between your two dogs over there down under there's no distinction between those things so it still leaves you in the quandary of what is where do those things come from but you can't just describe some sort of um an arbitrary word for it and say well we agree that this is that thing that doesn't in itself say that that thing has those properties just because i said it does right so um imagine so forget the word dog um but we'll be talking about dogs without using the word because we have to so so when i say that i've got two dogs right i'm saying i have two creatures with a certain facial structure four legs for a tail and they can breed okay right well they can't but you know what i mean so are they okay so this is what would be called abstract particulars rather than a concrete particular because now you're bringing up the plurality of the dogs that you have in your home yeah question then so then the question then still is are those things related to each other are those things all things that exist have properties but are they sharing the same are they sharing the same abstract universal because lots of things have four legs and a tail that aren't dogs i mean so i i mean i look this may be a bit out of my depth for philosophy but i would say um there everything that exists has properties right because that's kind of how i do define existence the having of properties like this soda can it has the property of the pepsi max logo and black and it's made of aluminium and stuff so that has the properties associated with soda cans and then if i were to compare it to this empty coffee mug i have way too many things on my desk um so do i so i would say like they share perhaps the property of being able to contain things without things falling out of them so they are so like we categorize things in certain ways as i don't know why so you would say so you would say that they're like they're both containers yeah right so like that might be uh what did you say like an abstract universal yes the idea of containers right yep so i would say we experience a lot of things right um yeah when i'm talking about things i mean like we literally experience a lot of objects in our lives and then our brain is like okay this is a bit much to remember each individual pepsi max can you get let's just remember the logo the color and the what's inside of it and now you know what a pepsi max can is yeah i i i get what you're sa

CVS Live Guest - 2021-10-28 - The Lisney Bros.

hey so we're live i'm here with the lisney brothers how are you guys doing pretty good dave and this is your stream so no it's the lisbon it's the lisney brothers stream oh wow you aidan invited me uh earlier and i was like david doesn't like me he doesn't want me on this again and i was like well he did take some convincing i was like david you want gear and on and he's like ugh i was like come on just for old time's sake it took i guess it took me two seconds to email kieran saying hey we're doing this hey kieran i can't see you i can't see you you can't see me no you all i see is your little avatar now aiden's give me his avatar too it's like you guys are like oh yeah i see aiden i only i mean i always only see your avatar david yeah because my software will only let me do one thing at a time with my camera so uh the good news kieran is uh matthew murdock reached out to me so i sent him a link to this chat yes i hope he comes on i hope so but i don't know i i hear from him very rarely but uh have you guys heard from him no no i'm terrible but i'm also a good friend yeah i'm terrible at reaching out i don't talk to anybody but um to be fair he hasn't reached out to me either so i'm gonna i'm gonna fall back on that one yeah yeah well he did explain to me that so uh your cameras keep popping on and off but that's okay that's weird aidan i've seen you just straight up the whole time right yeah i'm seeing karen i'm seeing karen and i okay the entire entire the entire time now is your actual being gonna be in the in the video are you like um sitting there with your icons and your guitar and stuff or is it just your avatar the live feed folks are seeing oh no no no i they're gonna see my little face down in the bottom right corner uh without too much i cropped it because i thought that i'd be able to squeeze it in better with the guests but so anyway uh aiden i guess i haven't talked to you as much recently so how has been going with your health and uh all that stuff you mean you mean because i had covered twice didn't you yeah um it was fine i was awesome i got time off work and uh you know i got to lay around and watch tv and uh you know i didn't have to work out during that time period too because like i'm sick so it's probably probably not good to move my body and yeah i the first time that i had kovid i lost my sense of taste and smell and that was a real downer because um i didn't even i didn't even take the opportunity to be like well you know what i'm gonna be mindful about the fast now i just like tried to throw the same uh terrible dude down the fat face in hopes that the taste would return and it was just like it didn't work but second time around it was no big deal um it was like a mild headache and uh just like malaise just feeling tired so you know other than that i've been good that's cool and your hospital is it um once you told me i think you told me that they're not too keen on the the job down there is that right still so yeah i got the uh yeah i mean it's one of those things where it's like i'm not personally um i don't feel like morally um over the top about the the way that the vaccination was procured because we're kind of arbitrary about all the medicines that we have like actually so many medications are um produced unethically and i'm like well why are we picking this one to like take a dump on yeah i just don't like being told that i have to do something and actually i'm like did you hesitate did you hesitate yeah yeah and i procrastinate with everything that i do in life so i waited until the last moment um to get it and i got the moderna um it's a two-part series and uh i was kind of hoping that they would forego getting the vaccinations if we were recently sick so i was thinking oh i i was saying i probably have a ridiculous amount of of the virus i probably have like a very high viral as a result of everything so yeah make sure that i breathe directly on patients are you uh are you concerned that you're now subscribed for a lifetime subscription you're gonna have to get boosters the rest of your life or no i not really no i kind of like because um it's very like like everybody likes to stick like the mark of the beast on the whole thing and um but like if it is the mark of the beast then you have to keep getting it and like i won't be in the hospital forever so it's just like well how how long conversation is because like um you know like how many parachutes we all bought or like procured like you know from some how many shoes have we procured from a poor person say that again yeah well i was going to say from a i was going to really go to like china so like yeah production and we don't really care about the the goods that we that we get from other countries that are basically made in sweatshop so why would we um throw our arms up about other things which i i understand i get i get the i get why people are up in arms about it but it's just like like the you know the hot button issue to um to complain about and it just feels kind of arbitrary to me um because most of the vaccine vaccinations that that human beings get are um they're pretty uh pretty sketchy their origins so yeah yeah yeah but for actually karen yeah here we go oh go ahead well kieran brought that a couple years can you hear me again yeah i can hear you again what did i bring up okay kieran you messaged me dad and uncle mark a couple years ago because you were concerned about getting oliver vaccinated with just the regular set of vaccinations and you're right these don't seem very ethical um okay but it was actually a mutual friend of mine tim mining kieran who sent me this uh um i think it was a podcast with this bioethicist who's an orthodox christian and his thoughts on the vaccination and uh it was very interesting i didn't even have to listen to the whole thing i'm like all right sold confirmation bias i don't really want to have to fight and lose my job anyway so bing i'll just uh take it on this guy's word but that's his brutal honesty because it's like i don't know i'm a lukewarm christian well i wasn't i wasn't actually thinking from a christian perspective but just uh in terms of you know um jumping on the compliance train it's going to be a long ride i think but i'm just not going to comply because i i'd rather way worse off than the united states right it's extreme what about kieran what's your take on all that jazz well i i didn't even uh i didn't even reach out to you since the last time well i did but um not since i got sick i got sick like three weeks ago or something like that well you were a fever you were feverish when you were debating the young kid remember that was the so that was the first round of sickness that was a sinus infection turned into pretty severe science fiction actually that night that we got off that live chat my temperature was and for a couple nights after that talk i was still pretty feverish but it was it wasn't anything that was like out of the norm and then um and then like two weeks after that my mother-in-law uh she went to go do like some sort of checkup um at the doctors for some other you know medical issue and it was like a routine kind of thing but they did like a scan for her chest and they found she had um i guess aidan it's called like glass lung or something like that or whatever it's called something like that anyway they found her they found some weird thing in her lungs they were like oh yeah that's indicative of covid and she was like well we just had an exposure to covid and i was tested and i didn't test positive and then yeah you probably tested too soon you get tested again she got tested turns out basically everybody got affected and i was like well i feel fine like uh adrian and i got tested we didn't test positive and then oliver started feeling a little goofy so we took him to his pediatrician and she was like yeah he's got it and i was like well i was just tested for it and i didn't have it that was like two days ago she's like yeah you tested too early wait a couple days and i was like yeah i don't think i'm this is probably just you know whatever um i'm probably going to be asymptomatic and there's nothing actually even wrong because oliver seems for the most part okay and then um that next day that was on a friday that next day on saturday i did yard work and i came back inside and i basically just like felt like i was dying and for two weeks well for the first week it was pretty much the normal stuff you hear about just the um extreme fatigue massive headaches um really bad uh respiratory stuff and then um you know it kind of like moves throughout my sinuses and whatever and then somewhere like in the third or fourth day i just lost all taste and smell completely i still don't have any of that back yet um but everything else got better but pretty much i'd say i think it was like 14 people in our family immediate and extended got in adrian's family got covered her dad is still um home from work because he got he has developed into lower lobe pneumonia her grandfather got it and he ended up just passing away from it like uh last week um her grandmother got it she's fine yeah so so a whole whole litany of you know people got it in the family and for the most part um you know it ran its course about the same with everybody but uh there were a few stragglers who got affected really bad but then again there was also the comorbidities and stuff with her grandfather was like 88 years old diabetic you know heart issues stuff like that so um it was pretty sudden but yeah i mean um do you know what they treated him with in the hospital or did he die at home yeah so he went into the hospital i don't i don't want to give away like too many details we can maybe talk about it private yeah yeah there was some sketchy stuff for sure um yeah and uh but that's just lancaster general health and you know their our local hospital is very um sloppy but anyway um so my opinion on the whole like um jab thing though is essentially what it's been the whole time which is just uh i don't trust it i think that people have to make the decision for themselves as to whether or not you know if they want to provide for their families and they feel like that's the only thing they can do then yeah you know be very prayerful about it be discerning about it and do what you have to do um but if you can avoid getting i didn't think at all in fact don't get and i also want to say about that um about the podcast that you sent aiden that uh that tim said i don't i don't trust ancient faith radio whatsoever um they're completely biased in one political direction and um i think that the orthodox police are going to come after you for saying that no i think that a lot of the people on the ground in the orthodox church are uh in david's position in my position but unfortunately like with most media you're gonna hear the loudest most obnoxious side is the one that's typically wrong and the one that is actually a vast minority so i don't remember the link who sent the link i don't remember that link aidan said it to me a while ago and you said hey what are your thoughts on this it was a link to ancient faith radio is um ewtn there's some good stuff on there but in the past couple years it's it's gone it's gone pretty woke and um okay so you know there's been a big crop up of like actual traditional orthodox content creators well the thing is is that um you know with this kind of stuff they try and pretend like the vaccine is not political but unfortunately it's become an extremely political thing so um they try and say that one position of it is is completely political but that the other stance or position on the on the jab is not political and so because they are a is uh the jab what we're calling it now yeah cause you guys keep saying the jab and i haven't heard that before like yeah i gotta be careful with this few or some fewer syllables yeah okay cool oh yeah the jab guys all right cool also they're deleting lots of they're deleting lots of stuff too for saying you know they have their algorithms so well it's because of the jab exactly such a jack wagon but yeah david it's pretty much it's uh the podcast is rubbish okay sorry but it's rubbish yeah i mean i i just and i also hate this idea that it's like oh i'm a doctor so because i'm an orthodox lay person and i'm a doctor that means somehow i'm in authority on what an orthodox person should do uh when it comes to the jab and i think that it's just uh it's ridiculous they've been canceling tons of uh they are you remember because you make fun of his name all the time because you always make fun of the uh orthodox monks names because you just think they're hilarious but uh i have a tree for pronouncing them so yeah i know so you always get like you always make up hilarious names and it's it's funny but do you remember abbott tree fawn i know i sent you some of this stuff before and i know you've been like oh he's good but his name is hilarious i don't okay i know this dude ever uh super humble monk he's an abbot uh up in washington state they canceled him simply because he said well no i think that um it's dangerous to take this vaccine especially with the little that we know about it and they canceled him because he was being too political about it and because he speaks out against marxism and stuff and then literally two days after they canceled this dude um they come out with all these articles and podcasts on why the vaccine is good so i mean it's just it's not very altruistic in my opinion and i think that uh as much as hearts actually they canceled him uh the the company ancient faith because they're not for profit so they're so that they have some big donors in there that have some pretty uh they have some pretty obvious political affiliations and if they pull the plug and say hey i don't like the content you're producing i'm not going to give you any more of my money then that obviously puts them in a in a tough position so they have to cater to the people that are giving them money i mean as most non for profits go that get corrupted that's that's what happened with ancient faith and that's what people are starting to see because they just keep canning uh good solid holy priests who are just literally speaking about the truth and then they're bringing on a bunch of people that want to resurrect origin and make him a saint and talk about universalism and a whole bunch of garbage and it's just nonsense yeah did you ever listen to that uh universalist orthodox going to heaven yeah yeah it was very disturbing because i thought that was one of my first introductions to orthodoxy and i'm like is that what they're all like no that is the vast minority position it's it's not even a minority but it's literally not even supposed to be a position it's condemned as heresy in this ecumenical council it doesn't matter what part of origin you want to resurrect whether it's the pre-existence of souls or it's uh universal salvation or it's the allegorizing of genesis it doesn't matter it's all been condemned in the sixth academical council and then it was reaffirmed again or it was condemned in the fifth council and then reaffirmed in the sixth council and then you have crazy um orthodox people that are trying to state insane things like origen was a saint and uh like the the bishop baron type stuff like dare we hope that i'll be saved i mean no we don't because christ says that's not going to happen we can have hope and love and want people to be saved but if you're trying to say that satan's going to be redeemed i'm sorry scripture is pretty explicit that that's not going to happen so it's just the the um yeah i guess uh uh hope and desire are two two different i mean because like what you're stating is uh um you know uh we kind of hope that jesus is wrong about his proclamation about um you know how many people are actually like that's because um you there yeah you keep cutting out i don't know maybe my internet connection's not good it's a poopy i'm going to move my laptop closer to me okay oh he's on this laptop somehow um yeah not a good one okay um gotcha can you is it is it not cutting i can hear you now yeah i can hear you now so you're saying that there's a whole bunch of orthodox not a whole bunch you're saying there's a minority of elevate origin as a saying yeah there's a basically what it is is that there's a whole yeah there's a there's a small few of very loud and obnoxious orthodox that are trying to uh emphasize a whole litany of heterodox things that we don't accept as a church and it's unfortunate because it always seems to be the case whether you're talking about the orthodox church or the catholic church or the protestant churches largely speaking that the most loud obnoxious ones are often the ones that are the most heretical so i like that one of my biggest pet peeves about um there's two things in orthodoxy that when i first came in contact with it and i didn't know any better i thought i don't know if i'm going to have to look into this a lot further because if this is true then i don't want to be orthodox one of them was was universalism if that was really as wide reaching as it seemed to be because i didn't necessarily want to be in a church where that was even allowed to be a debate and then the other thing was uh substitutionary atonement because i kept hearing from all these different orthodox theologians and writers and stuff like that like pop theologians the people that you'd hear on ancient faith that oh orthodoxy doesn't believe in uh in the atonement of jesus christ we don't we don't believe that uh christ was a substitutionary sacrifice for sins because oh that's that's evil god wouldn't uh wouldn't do that but i was like okay but that's totally biblical language to hear that so what i what i learned is that actually no it's completely orthodox to teach the substitutionary atonement it's just that we don't believe that god's wrath is what is poured out on christ like protestants do we believe that uh you know it wasn't it wasn't like he was taking on the punishment of god the father or anything like that so but we definitely believe that christ was a substitute for us and that he was an atonement for us and took on our sin and paid the price for it there's definitely a penal aspect to it and there's a substitutionary aspect to it so there's little things like that in orthodoxy that you hear all these like kind of pop things like sometimes like when when like um a good uh correlation for a catholic would be like oh don't you guys believe that everything the pope says is infallible it's like no of course we don't believe everything the pope says it's it's a common misunderstanding that is super irritating um so yeah so unfortunately there's tons of little things like that within the orthodox world that people are like well i thought that orthodoxy taught x y and z and the other big thing the third and most annoying thing is orthodoxy doesn't really seem to uh have its doctrine pinned down and this is what i thought for a little while leading up into actually looking into orthodoxy because it basically just seemed like well they don't really like to define anything it seems like they're just kind of like everything's a mystery which in one sense yes we are big on mystery but we have i mean we have a church filled with a history of uh very accurate and detailed theologians so it's just uh anyway i'm rambling david that's your cue because i don't have anything good to offer i just i wanted to ask you kieran um because i i have never really understood um why it was necessary for christ to suffer because i know that one drop of his blood would have sufficed or even one word or just the thought i mean he could do it he's god he can do what he wants um but i also know there's the infinite um insult of mankind's sin in paradise that needs to be accounted for and needs to be um reconciled or whatever the word would be i guess uh atoned for yeah um so i understand all that but i mean my understanding of why christ suffered so much and died isn't really clear and i think i think the way i intuitively the way i think about christ's extreme suffering physically the way he was tortured and had a bad trial all that sort of stuff um the way i think about it sort of intuitively is that this is what happens if you're patient and meek and humble it's an example it's an example it's an example yeah and then in terms of the spiritual suffering it's it's another example to us of which side are you going to be on are you going to be comforting christ during his torture and death on the cross or are you going to be one of the ones contributing to that that pain and suffering and like if you're with if you're with him you're comforting him and if you're against him you're actually literally torturing and killing him yeah so that's the way i see that's the way i see the death the suffering and death of christ but i don't i don't really understand theologically what god's intention was what was what was the minimum and what was the maximum and did christ achieve the minimum or the maximum price christ definitely had to die um the reason why he had to die and we we say this in the um resurrection hymn on pasca we say christ has risen from the dead trampling down death by death or conquering death by death and that's where you get like the little icxc nika that christ christ conquers christ conquers everything but the main thing that christ conquers his death and the only way to kill death is to kill it with death so christ be because he was perfect he didn't actually deserve um not the punishment of sin which is what a lot of people say oh we're being punished because we've sinned so now we have to die no no death is simply the natural uh reaction to walking yeah the natural consequence of walking away from the tree of life but because christ didn't transgress the law in any way obviously you know he didn't have to die he could have lived and he wouldn't have had to taste death but he took the sting of death saint paul says oh death where is your sting and christ took this thing of death and literally it's like he took the sting of death and injected it in death itself um so yeah his blood one drop could have sufficed to atone for the entire world but death itself would have actually had to have been met by christ who didn't deserve it in order to um take death and essentially have death kill itself um and so now obviously we participate in that so that's the most like elementary way that i could uh go into it but if you're if you're looking for if you're looking for a more extensive dive into the necessity of christ death burial and resurrection but specifically death i would point you to father stephen de young um in his whole council of god podcast um also he has a podcast called lord of spirits that's really good and then another um content creator who's also uh um on his way to be a theologian and he's a biblical scholar and stuff in the uh orthodox church his name is uh seraphim hamilton and he goes by the name cobain the christian and i'll give you these two guys you'll absolutely love their stuff but they get really super in depth with um atonement and that kind of stuff and they put it in its proper context and they correct a lot of the things that are sort of um pushed back too hard against by most orthodox because it's true protestants like if you're talking about calvinism they have a really gross idea of god where essentially not only do do they have a god that is demanding of sacrifice to the point because his wrath needs to be satiated which is really gross like thinking about god being passionate enough that he's so pissed off and angry that he needs to kill his own son not only is that an issue but the other issue is that if it's really god's wrath that's pouring out on the sun christ well number one he didn't pay the full price because he's not eternal he's not um eternally damned to hell christ went down into hell only for three days and all he did there was preach the gospel as saint peter said so he didn't actually pay the full price and secondly if you have god the father damning christ the son or pouring out his wrath and punishment on christ then that means you have a separation in the trinity which obviously can't be so now you have um now you have a separation or a split in the godhead which is nestorian and and can't be a thing so protestants take it too far and say that god poured out his wrath on the sun because he needed to have this wrath satiated and orthodox some orthodox take it too far in the opposite direction and say no we don't believe any of that therefore we don't believe in substitutionary atonement when really it's the opposite we just um we just let scripture say what scripture says there's all sorts of different analogies for christ's death burial and resurrection in one passage we hear that it's like a legal debt in another pac uh uh passage we hear that there's a healing aspect to it we hear that christ is victorious we hear all these different analogies and like any analogy if you stretch them too far you're they're going to break so rather than saying when christ when scripture says for instance in colossians that you know christ uh took our our iou or our our sin debt and nailed it to the cross people are like oh well who's that payment for and then you get certain theologians throughout the church age saying oh he paid god off then you get other people saying oh well he actually paid satan off then you get people saying oh well he paid he paid death off or he paid so and so off but to take it any further than what scripture says in one sense you can start to poke holes in everything so you have to be careful when you're talking about anything theological not to take any of the scriptural pictures and analogies too far so is there a legal aspect to atonement yes is there a healing aspect to it yes is there a recapitulation aspect to it yes absolutely all of these things um is the orthodox position significantly different in any way like a major way or a subtle way from the catholic position on a tournament yeah so it's hard to stress how like severe it you guys have you guys obviously believe in substitutionary atonement but i don't think that you guys believe that for instance god poured out his wrath no the son yeah i don't personally believe that but i don't know what the church teaches i don't think the church i don't think the catholic church doesn't make sense i think i think that you guys um you guys have more nuance in your understanding of the atonement like orthodox does but your main emphasis is on the judicial aspect of it um so classically looking at at catholicism what you can really see is that protestantism largely uh mimics or understood atonement in the same way but rather than saying that humans have the capacity to participate in the redemptive aspect of it or to partake in the merits of um of of you know all that christ did and the saints and all these things protestants would just say well no we don't participate in any we don't get any merits for anything because they don't understand the distinction between merit and um you know payment or or or wages they think that if you say that while we merited something blah blah blah that means that god owes it to us not understanding that merit just means it's like a reward uh you don't that god doesn't owe you anything but because you're faithful he gives you a little treat or something um so there's a difference only in that aspect i think between most protestants um and catholic understandings of the atonement and then with orthodoxy we kind of take in everything so you'll hear the different theories of atonement whether it's christus victor or penal substitutionary atonement or uh the moral exemplar position or whatever and we look at all those and we say every one of those has some truth in it that's you can you can you can read fathers of the church that lean more heavily on the penal aspect of it you find more fathers that lean more heavily on the recapitulation aspect of it if you read saint cyril he talks heavily about the recapitulation theory where christ had to go through every stage of humanity first and redeem it and recapitulate it before he suffered on the cross um and that he he looks at the um he takes more of the christus victor view which is essentially yeah christ conquered death by death and the atonement yeah sure it was there but i mean the main thing wasn't that christ paid a penalty for sin the main thing is that christ conquered death by death so you can find all these different elements without throughout the church history uh history but i think that within the last thousand years from like anselm up i think is when when catholicism classically started getting more judicial with its understanding of atonement uh and we just don't really like look at it like that although we acknowledge that there's an aspect to it that's true to say there's a judicial thing being fulfilled so thanks for that uh aiden i want to get your perspective on what you think the catholic sort of idea of atonement is like i mean you can just say uh you agree with everything your brother said or you can add whatever is different but the reason i'm asking you the reason i'm asking you to do this now is because i've got i've actually got my little book of uh catholic dogma here and i'm going to read a tiny paragraph after you've said your thing and see if it if it changes your opinion at all and see if what karen thinks of it too so what is your basic hunch about the vicarious atonement of christ on the um you're breaking up breaking up um breaking up aidan are you there am i breaking up yep yeah yeah you're good we can hear you now good um no my view is um i i don't know i haven't read my substitution but i would assume that it's a very uh centered um uh centered uh teaching on the whole thing closer to what kieran is saying but kieran and i had a conversation about a quote the other day and so i kind of see it as jesus opened a pathway for all men to follow and it kind of um uh goes under uh the you have to die before you die so that when you die you don't die and um that's how i kind of think about that because uh if i do too much diving into certain things it becomes too scrupulous for me and it just kind of like i just over confuse myself yeah but that being said every time i pop open my catechism um it's so beautifully centered and um i i love i love the catechism i love the most recent catechism yeah i think your brother's looking at it right now i'm not mistaken are you yeah i am oh yeah yeah oh he's trying to get the headstart oh david's going to say this and i need to say that this is wrong no i want to see you i want to see it the catechism um has such a way about like like explaining things that's not like overtly um technical technical yeah so it's kind of like okay like i'm reading on christ offered himself to the father for our sins and on everything i'm reading like yeah i agree with that but there's like so far there's no talk about was written by masons who are trying to uh basically modernism into the whole gamut so i think you should close that book and uh open some father seraphim rose and read to us from that what do you think buddy amen dude love me some father seraphim so uh one of the dogmas we have in the catholic faith is christ offered himself on the cross as a true and proper sacrifice that's a defeated dogma we also have another defeated dogma christ by his sacrifice on the cross has ransomed us and reconciled us with god and then that's the other one ransomed ransom theory yes we believe in that too but not to the death level wasn't it anselm that said that that speculated that um the ransom was paid to satan i hope not that's absolutely nothing to say but um no we don't we don't owe anything to satan but um there's a little paragraph here called inadequate patristic theories of the redemption and it cites uh saint irenaeus of lyon and he initiated the so-called recapitulation theory or mystic theory of redemption and um it teaches that christ as the second adam saved and united with god the whole human race in this view salvation of man had already taken place in principle through the incarnation of the son of god side by side with this theory which gave to the passion and death of christ a subordinate significance only saint irenaeus also expounds the pauline teaching of the ransoming and reconciling through christ's death on the cross so i guess it just it just subordinates a little bit the death and suffering on the cross origen on the other hand changed the pauline teaching of man's ransom from the dominion of the devil to an unbiblical ransom theory um it was origin perhaps yeah he held the devil by adam's sin had acquired a formal dominion over mankind in order to liberate mankind from this tyranny christ gave his life to the devil as a ransom price but the devil was deceived as he was not able to maintain for long his dominion of death over christ and so on and so forth okay others explained that the devil lost his dominion over mankind by unjustly trying to extend his right this right to christ also despite the fact that this error was widespread patristic teaching held firmly to the biblical teaching of man's reconciliation with god through christ's death on the cross the notion of a dominion of the devil over fallen mankind was energetically refuted by ansem and some of canterbury ah there you go so it was the opposite so he fought against it yeah the notion the notion of the atonement i don't know if you mind if i read a little paragraph this is the catholic nutshell here it says there's a there's a dogma christ through suffering a death rendered vicarious atonement to god for the sins of man that's that's a dogma the other one is christ's victor the cure vicarious atonement is adequate or of full value by reasoning by reason of its intrinsic merit that's another dogma christ vicarious atonement is super abundant that is the positive value of the expiation is greater than the negative value of the sin and finally christ did not die for the predestined only christ died not for the faithful only but for all mankind without exception that's an interesting one a lot of rad trads in the kafka church don't believe that yeah but the thing is is that they have a that again because they're importing origin on what that means there's two views of of apoca stasis which one is the correct view and the other one is the false view one says that either a everyone is ultimately going to be in union with christ they might just have to go through some suffering first and then there's the correct one um or then and then b um everyone's just automatically going to go to heaven so you have one with a little bit of suffering one with no suffering and then you have the correct view of the pocket the stasis which is that um all of uh creation is gonna be put back in order and it's gonna be um it's gonna be re-justified or re-justiced meaning everything's going to be put back in balance so that's the correct view dying for all of mankind everybody nobody technically is actually going to stay dead i mean they're going to taste the second death if they're not with christ but everyone's going to be resurrected so that's the correct way to view it is that everyone's going to be resurrected and where they're at is going to be in perfect alignment with what is actually supposed to be the case so that everything is in perfect balance yeah um because again like if you if you take the judicial or the justice view of salvation too far you start start to get an idea that justice is this thing where christ where god needs to satiate his anger and he has to punish somebody he can't let something be unpunished when we would say no god can supersede that with his mercy but also you have a false view of what justice is justice literally just means things in balance which is why when you have the little law symbol you have the statute with the two balancing scales because true justice is not having somebody being punished severely it's having things being put back in order properly and things being in perfect balance so yeah anyway amen to that dave yeah um there's just a little definition here given of the atonement by atonement in general is understood the satisfaction of a demand in the narrower sense it is taken to mean the reparation of an insult so i think that uh is a nice clarification you know what's funny though you know atonement is like a like only a couple hundred year old word does it really literally mean at one yeah there was i forget which um i forget which theologian it was back in the um oh i think it was even after the medieval times it might have been in the victorian era or after um but when they were translating in well i guess it would have been in the in the uh i think it was first in the 1611 king james so it would have had to be around that time i believe don't you know fact check me on that but i know it was around that time um but when they were translating they had no like they had no word for atonement um and so they they kind of got this idea of like okay well there's this idea of being put back in proper relationship to god i'm at one with god so that's where they got atonement from so you get all these like different views of atonement but the word itself is actually it actually i think it's hilarious because it i think it um i think that it it perfectly uh encapsulates the the holistic kind of orthodox view of a relationship with god which is to be in union with him which is what salvation is to be in union with christ so at one with christ atonement i don't know yeah i never knew that before but i thought that was funny it's a made-up word totally i mean all words are made up but it's like a very made-up word well it's funny that it made it do you think the word or the concept oh god david no i was just going to say one little thing that it it made its way so powerfully into the old testament that uh day of atonement and all that is like very prominent yeah so it came in handy yeah oh yeah i was actually gonna say don't you think it kind of the concept of atonement do you think it kind of falls short because of jesus's sacrifice um well mankind and creation will be propelled into a place that is vastly superior to that of where um creation started before mankind fell yeah well maybe we're more at one with god in the end in the second paradise than in the first paradise right yeah right i mean um that's the i'm selfish so that's what i'm looking that's what i'm looking forward to um reading about adam before the fall and hearing like oh yeah you have the chance you have the opportunity we all have the opportunity to be in a state that supersedes what he originally had and lost and it's like oh that seems uh that seems really appealing to me in one sense um because the only thing better than if less is more just imagine how much exactly so do you spend do christians spend a lot of time thinking about the meaning of christ's death like i mean because i find it i find it a little bit mysterious and is it something that a lot of christians uh my wife just came home and said i had to tell her i love her what was the fashion dude i'm sorry i love you do uh thank you same to you do you uh do a lot of christians of all different types think about christ's death and the mystery of it or is it not something that gets a lot of thought from christians we should we should kieran was it you who said something to me or was it an orthodox saint that said something about the crucifixion being the actual ending of creation that wasn't me oh well i read that and that blew my mind we never thought about that before and it's like didn't you just tell me didn't you just tell me about that or maybe we read it together or something because i think i know i know i brought it up to you yeah yeah do you know i've thought about death a lot but not like the the full implications of that depth because it's just or that death because it's just so it's so heady and not only that but because there is such a focus on the crucifixion especially in orthodoxy especially in catholicism that it it's a lot like saying a word over and over and over again until there's this meaning so you know i have my crucifix here that i love looking at jesus on my crucifix but like really it should disturb me to think that like dude you have um you have a guy hanging from across and literally perpetually like stuck in a state of um so i don't know i don't know dave i don't know if it's possible for any of us to think to truly think enough about i when i'm in when when i'm in a proper headspace uh when i'm doing my rosary and i'm looking at the um the crucifix and christ's body represented on this representation of the crucifix i tripped myself out by doing a meditation where it jesus christ is in that statue he's tiny he's only six inches tall and he's in that bronze or whatever the metal is he's within there like his body's in there suffering like he's right there he's a foot and a half away from my face and he is literally inside that metal casing suffering and dying right that's uh that was a powerful meditation that i had because sometimes i think okay i have to place myself in the scene and i just imagine jerusalem and all that it's like no screw that i'm i'm here right now in my room with this crucifix and jesus christ is six feet six inches tall he's inside this metal casing like a torture device so that was a powerful and trippy uh meditation and sometimes if i'm in if i'm in a good head space i can feel that and i think we need to sort of connect with that the reality of it and another meditation i've been doing at the mass is getting really really nervous that uh the priest is going to spill the precious blood of christ once it's been consecrated and turned into the blood and trying to picture that it really is christ's blood because it is but i'm trying to have that nervousness because when my wife has a glass of water on the couch i'm nervous so why shouldn't i be nervous about the priest holding yeah hey david it says the call is going to end in 10 minutes just to let you know absolutely yeah yeah we'll wrap it up we'll definitely wrap it up because i got to go yeah but one thing i wanted to say about the empty cross of the protestants do you think that's a little bit of uh reluctance to acknowledge the price that was paid or am i missing the point of protestantism yeah i don't know what that is there is i think because they because of uh the sacrifice being paid once and for all in hebrews talking about um you know the the the one sacrifice they look at and they're like see it's over it's done with well that's because they don't have a proper understanding of the eucharist and um you know how we participate in the sacrifice right uh every time we go to mass or liturgy and uh yeah so i think it's just the fundamental misunderstanding but as a side note like i i'm wearing my you know little right now that doesn't it doesn't have christ on it yeah every cross i have has christ on it there's an over there's an emphasis in in my church in particular with the resurrection of christ because i think honestly in a lot of traditions of christianity the the thing that gets most often overlooked is how important the resurrection is and how uh fundamental and important that is and what that signifies but um even even the descent into hades the heart that the harrowing of hades and uh not having a fully fleshed out kind of idea of what's going on there in most traditions there always seems to be either the emphasis on uh just the crucifixion or uh yeah the crucifixion's done bro yeah nothing else needs to be done christ paid at all bro it's like yeah of course you did but so i think that that i think that's that's something that they're like allergic to uh crucifix but they're inconsistent with it it is it is weird because they won't wear a crucifix around i think it also might have to do with uh like an iconic class which is which is so bizarre though because um having christ on the cross depicts something that is act it's actually the incarnate the incarnate word but when you just have the symbol of the cross like if you want to talk about paganism that literally is paganism an that is actual paganism it's it's so the irony is just never thought of hilarious that is a that is a pagan symbol and it obviously was a pagan torture device so to have an empty cross with no christ on it if you if a roman citizen were to look at that back in the day in the first century they'd be like oh who are you going to torture and kill they would have no understand no christian would have an understanding of what an empty cross meant apart from christ being crucified on it so it's so ridiculous the iconoclastic thing of like but then what also is weird is like you're going to most pro and i'm in people's houses all the time and they're largely evangelical houses and they'll have pictures of christ all over the place they're just not canonically painted or written icons so because they have a blond-haired jesus that's hanging on a cross it's somehow okay because it's it's painted in uh you know victorian style whatever but if you have an icon it's like oh no graven image is like what it doesn't make any sense maybe they see that they were yeah but i i did read something very powerful in a protestant writer of i don't know the 18th century or 19th century something like that it was all about the precious blood of christ and i found it very shocking i know there are a lot of evangelicals that talk about uh the blood of christ and the cleansing power of the blood of christ and i like that i belong to the confraternity of the precious blood but this writing that i read it was representative of one particular protestant group that was sort of obsessed or focused on the blood of christ and the power of the blood of christ so that's maybe not your typical protestant um emphasis but it was very weird and refreshing to read it and i couldn't help but think that it was very catholic i don't know or maybe orthodox too plea plead the blood of jesus you do get that a lot of pentecostal and uh like charismatic baptist okay churches yeah yeah my wife goes to a baptist church and he's a great pastor and he's he every time that they're at church he talks about the blood of christ but uh yeah it is it is rather interesting so there's still there's there's good um you know in those traditions there's just they're missing a lot and they're uh they're adding a lot of weird stuff too i just think it's funny how ironic it is we you know as catholics and orthodox we get accused of paganizing christianity but yeah most of pr most of protestantism is literally just gnosticism it's essentially uh you need to believe everything exactly the way it needs to be believed otherwise you're not going to be saved and they just import all these weird dualistic uh gnostic teachings and it's and then we get accused of being pagans because we you know we pray to the mother of god i like in this uh book fundamentals of catholic dogma that i'm reading uh doing a little series on it but the author makes no bones about it he just said he just clumps together like the errors of of uh like the materialists the pantheist and liberal christian theology it's like all clumped together right yeah just like in certain in certain respects like it's just like they completely miss the boat in exactly the same way it's like what a what what a group like you know you got the gnostic manichaeans you got the pantheist you got the materialists and you got your liberal liberal protestant theology it's like strange bedfellows i guess yeah yeah for sure we'll wrap it up there but make sure i'm thinking wrong huh go ahead finish wrap it up there it always that always makes i was just gonna say that always makes me think like oh where am i like like what like if everybody's so wrong then like where am i where am i where's my wrongness because yeah yeah um it's really it's really easy to look in those things and be like this is wrong this is wrong this is wrong and then i'm always just like oh man if everybody else is wrong i'm probably wrong about a ton of stuff of course of course of course pressure your brother said you're the one who kind of but your brother your brother showed me that that thinking yes it's so wrong about everything in me yeah yeah we're so wrong about everything but that's what your brother kieran said it's like uh we don't we don't get to heaven by having a checklist of beliefs and getting the the quiz right right so right um but uh i was just thinking today we may get cut off at any moment but we're thinking i was thinking today about the little child and the two kids in the backseat of the car and they're so worried about you know oh did did daddy did mommy and daddy do their taxes properly did they remember to file like the uh the a30 form did i don't know if oh i don't know if he signed oh i'm so worried about this you know and the kids are discussing like the stuff that's well beyond their ken it's like kids aren't supposed to do that right it's like we're in the back seat we're supposed to just be good and keep quiet and that's about it right like we're not supposed to put our nose in uh god's business really that's a really good analogy i like that yeah so this talks about how dog went dictator prayer life yeah yeah he talks about how it guides i think he says it's like the light pose does he say there's a light am i cutting is c.s lewis the one that said they're the lights on the path is that what he said do you remember that dogmas are the lights on the path like you're walking a dark path but we have the dogmas that light up the path i don't know if that's right i don't remember i like cs lewis though yeah he might have making up his a map and a a man i think he uses something with this the be afraid that like i don't have this dogma right and this dogma right then i'm going to be way off the path and it's kind of like like you know you're just kind of at god's mercy anyway so yeah he's going to pour his wrath on you yeah yeah exactly he already has look at this wonderful so thanks for taking the time guys and i hope you i hope you guys don't get any more of the kovids okay of the coofs the coops and don't get any more don't get any more jabs how's that uh david let us know let us know what matt says then yeah yeah yeah yeah i will i'll email you all right cool later talk soon i just all right cool later talk soon i just tell

CVS Live Guest - 2022-03-15 - The Lisney Bros.

so i think we're live i'm here with aiden again how are you doing aiden good how are you man i'm doing all right thank you very much what are you drinking this is um a free perrier energy drink that i got because i ordered my groceries online and nice they gave me a free perrier energy drink with like caffeine yeah caffeine and some gourana or something ooh guarana or whatever it is is that bad [__] it sounds like it so excuse my language but um no whatever it is it doesn't taste great so i added in some uh i added in some here's a plug for perrier it doesn't taste great i i added in some uh i have alpha mousse or whatever it's called uh grapefruit flavor and get pamped man i put that in and uh but the thing is it's uh it's making me nervous because all the caffeine i don't do caffeine normally really why not because it makes me nervous oh dude you're missing out wait so um uh the lakora the lacroix as i as i call it the lacroix pamplemoose um in the states we don't really call things pamplemousse the first time we ever saw that was on the the uh the fizzy drinks the the lacroix drinks that like okay pamplemoose became a thing it's just great it's just great for their grapefruit right what's the brand name yeah what's the brand name of the thing it's like it's lacroix let's see what it is but for a while i was really deep in the cut and uh looking up a lot of lacroix pamplemoose memes because they're just so stupid and a lot of them were like get pamped you know uh you know what la cua means right no i don't the cross does it yeah oh that quarter i didn't think the quad decreased now across so like why would it be used on uh like a fizzy drink it's just a popular french name like uh and there's a place called la qua in france i can google that okay oh is that a place it doesn't seem to be a place maybe i'm wrong about that maybe it's the name of uh a news publication oh yeah so enough about that that's it's not tangent too much but um yeah i've got about an hour because my wife uh wants that that's what i've got we've got dexter new blood to to jump into so we've got a first episode down and now we gotta see where this is going that's a serial killer guy yes it is he he is i thought he moved to your country but apparently it was just upstate new york and i'm disappointed that he went from florida to new york instead of florida to canada so i was just like look at that ah but cool so what season is it it's like the ninth or something like that oh yeah but uh that reminds me this is not a good segue but i should uh share the link with matthew murdock because i told him i would give him the link and he can hop in here share it to kieran let him uh oh well kieran's gonna be painting but share it to him just in case he wants to to come and talk hop on yeah okay of course he wants to hop on let's see a couple of dudes hey yo oh man he really railed me the uh the other day in like one of these chats that we're in okay so he it was so good um he was talking to one of his friends who i believe is an orthodox priest or a deacon his last name i think is deacon so i think it's i think his name is father deacon um but um kieran uh what how does he say this he's just so ridiculous um hold on a second he talks that this guy is like chatting he's saying he needs to lose some weight and karen's like funny story aiden lost a lot of weight and uh um he said he just woke up one day and stopped smoking cigarettes and decided that he had to had to lose a lot of weight and then he was like um then he proceeded to say that it was from my having danced in a bunch of gay bars i believe like all right karen got me there he's obsessed with you and gay sex that those are his two obsessions karen yeah yeah i've been told that i'm obsessed with poop okay that's why he's attracted to you i guess i guess so it makes a lot of sense all right david i've got some questions for you today actually sure all right so we we've been talking about the rosary and um i wanted to know how long you have been praying it well i since the beginning like since my conversion in 2009 so you've had over 10 years of consistently praying this devotion yeah i've yep what's the biggest block i've ever skipped that's a good question um i think i've never skipped more than two days a week i don't think i've ever done more than that but i only do that i don't do the full rosary you know as you know no it's like five decades yeah you've done it but you've done five decades pretty consistently consistently yeah the the promise to get the promises you have to do a full rosary once per week did you know that of the conference do you mean the conference yeah you knew about that so yeah um as long as you do it four times a week you're pretty much covered right if you do different if you do different mysteries i follow the classic i follow the classic uh monday tuesday thing okay schedule um just mondays and tuesdays no no but i mean i'm just i don't wanna name all seven days of the week i think you should i don't wanna show off come on um so that's that's a really long time and that's really impressive because like the rosary at some points becomes so repugnant to the to the practitioner now ask me how many times i've actually paid attention while praying it no but that's like that's a key part nobody has ever successfully done one of them well i don't i i just don't believe it in my in my heart i think saint louis demolifor did you think he did yeah do you think so yeah i think a lot of the saints did i think a lot of the saints did that's what i like to think andre pio probably did too that dude was a monster he was always he was floating in the air like you said you told me uh jp2 floated in the air right yeah that's what i've heard i mean i'm trusting the people you told me that i believe yeah definitely um what about you what about you how much how often and how consistently have you been doing it for how many years uh the end of 2017 is when i decided to make a commitment to it um and i've had periods of time where like i've gone like the first year i did it every single day for a full year you know just a five decade and then um called uncle at a certain point and like have gone periods of time weeks or months without without it and then would like pick it up and recommit and pick it up and recommit i failed so many times with it um but i've also had moments with it where i pray it more than more than the five decades um a day because it's my primary it's my primary prayer so if i just you know at this point i've built up enough of a relationship with it where i know like okay i have no reason not to squeeze five decades in every day um because if i worse comes to worse i can just pray the sorrowful mysteries which is like sadistic to think this way but it's like well those are always easy for me because like you know suffering and it's tuesday today is really sorrowful tuesday yes it is do you do so you do follow the the recommended thing you don't no i just do i just do whatever i feel inspired okay so yeah yeah i try not to be too scrupulous with that with me because i'm just like you know what if i'm picking it up and i'm praying like like one of the traditional sets i don't really care and if i end up praying more then i then i'm like i'm sad so today i prayed um the sorrowful and the joyful and with no intentions of playing praying the joyful i was just going to pray the sorrowful all day i was basically just going to repeat it because i do that at times too where i do nothing but pray the you know the sorrowful mysteries um i found whatever i found a new uh a new thing that i tried twice and uh i'll bounce the idea off you and see how you feel about it sure okay so um you know i know it's kind of a bad habit playing video games but there's this new video game i'm obsessed with which is very wholesome and there's no sex or violence in it um but it's very calm and there's no stress there's no pressure there's no time there's nothing you just you're just building stuff okay okay minecraft it's called uh astroneer astroneer and uh it's just a cute little game kind of like a lego mechanic everything is clicky and little sound effects as you build your little things and whatever okay so it's just kind of like if you want to do a brain dead activity that's kind of fun like playing with blocks it's kind of like that but for adults i guess so anyway um what i did is i said okay i wasn't in the mood to pray my rosary it was a saturday or a sunday i forget which but um i'm obsessed with this game so i thought okay while i'm playing this mindless game what if i do the rosary but because i'm not really paying attention because i'm playing a game while praying my rosary that's not really very good but what if i do like an hour and a half and i do all uh how many mysteries are there 20 if i do all 20 mysteries because i have um i like to listen to it i like it's like a it's a nice way to pray the rosaries to listen to it so i put it on it's actually my own version with my own voice so it's kind of like it's me praying sure so i did that it was like an hour and a half and um you know not really paying attention but just kind of absorbing it so um i kind of like the idea of working myself into a spa head space where i can feel comfortable with because normally i would have a heart attack like a panic attack thinking about oh my god i have to do like all 20 mysteries it's too much of a commitment and too much too much time and like i'm just going to be on the edge of my seat the whole time like am i going to get through this and whatever but it was nice because i just said look this is a freebie thing it's kind of like a half-hearted rosary but i make up for it by doing an extra long one 20 mysteries which i don't normally ever do and um i enjoyed it like i enjoyed that and i think if i get in the habit of doing that it'll put me in a more relaxed state because my prayer life is always nervous um but i was completely relaxed as i was just sort of mucking about building stuff in my video game and listening to that so just want to get your feedback about like the pros and cons of that and uh how much that counts like does that count as doing the rosary or not or yeah so i guess i have some prettier liberal views on what counts and what doesn't count but i think that prayer in different contexts like just praying and being okay with praying badly and praying in weird ways and like praying um just in moments that can that like people would consider inappropriate i think that those are really beneficial because we're supposed to be striving to pray at all times and so like if you're playing a video game and you're like decompressing and you're using that also as prayer time i think that's really special and that like it's kind of just a it's kind of just bizarre in general to think of that but it's like why why not like why do we always have to like compartmentalize yeah we always have to compartmentalize so um and not only that but it's like pruning your neural networks so that like um like you're saying like because you're you're you're giving yourself a stimulus you know um uh like a lot like you know in this case you're attempting to do something for a longer amount of time that would usually elicit some form of extreme anxiety because i'm sure you still experience the anxiety even with just five decades right yeah yeah because you still feel like you have to get it done yeah yeah yeah right so it's like exposure you're exposing yourself to something that would normally elicit that like fear or like that fight this is an addiction i think this is an addiction i think yeah i mean yeah yeah i think so because what you're you're but you're just like allowing yourself to like get comfortable um just being around something so like when it's like exposure therapy and so you know like if you were afraid of a dog you wouldn't just go up to dogs and start petting them you'd be like ten feet away from a dog then seven feet away then six feet five feet four feet that type of thing until eventually just sitting next to the dog and then petting the dog and then petting the dog for one minute two minutes three minutes that type of thing so if you're listening to yourself um pray the rosary i see no reason why that wouldn't uh why that wouldn't be incredibly spiritually beneficial and um and count for your uh your prayer for the day especially if you have like a passive receptiveness to the whole to the whole process yeah and here's the other here's the other mind boggler so now that we have the internet and we have uploaded videos right you can like pray you can pray along the rosary with like groups of people that have prayed years ago and they've recorded it and uploaded it yeah and i always wonder okay so if i'm like playing a video of like a whole bunch of nuns and mother angelica and they're all playing praying this chaplain or praying this rosary like is god hearing their prayers as many times as they have hits on youtube and i like to think that like yeah that becomes like frozen in eternity and not only does it like accrue those prayers over and over again but every viewer that watches it and like prays along with it there's this like big cyclical ever-increasing um prayer that kind of like rebounds through through eternity nice like a fractal kind of prayer through space and time and all that yeah yeah and i mean that's how prayer is anyway because it goes outside space and time so yeah i found a nice um a nice youtube video okay i've got two things to say one is uh they do zoom rosary every day uh twice a day on a local catholic radio station here in montreal and i haven't tried i just learned about it today on the radio as i was driving around at work the other thing is i found a really nice uh rosary let me see if i can find the reference for you here quickly and uh let's just say joyful mysteries and i can find the one can you hear if i play audio will you be able to hear it don't know insane can you hear anything mary invites us to join her on a journey through the life of jesus when you listen back you'll hear the holy spirit okay i'm just gonna let this play for two seconds of the mother of our savior because we say the rosary with our body and our spirit it should touch us at every level of our being it is no monotonous ritual but a deeply contemplative christian prayer okay so hello um when you listen back if you listen back to this you'll hear it and you'll see the channel and all that stuff so i don't need to tell you about it but um i can't see you and i can't see myself right now oh here we are okay i'm back so it's a nice it's a nice uh rosary that they do it sounds like the guy might be east asian or something like that and there's singing and it's always the same music it's the same presentation but it gives a nice little meditation like just small very small meditations with the mysteries that's really cool they do the at the end they do the um what is it called the litany of our lady is that what they call it um are you familiar with that no i mean i know i mean i know i've heard it before i know i've read it before but um litany of loreto i think it is the litany of loretto yeah i am familiar yeah uh lord of mercy christ have mercy lord well this is a slightly different version than what i do heard those before but it just goes on and on i pray it uh every day i've actually memorized it have you really yeah i've memorized a whole bunch of prayers it's one of the things i love most about prayer even though i'm not good at prayer and i get nervous during prayer one of the things i really love is because i've always complained that i don't have a good memory but i've managed to memorize like a whole buttload of prayers excuse my language what a load of prayers buttload man you're so naughty i should publish a book like uh david's buttload of prayers be awesome and it would be great anyway uh yeah it's like it's like uh it's a it's something i enjoy is trying to use my memory for example let's say that you and i both know some guy like whatever because we watched his video or whatever okay and you're like oh do you remember that guy that did the video about uh litany of loretto and i'm like yeah and you're like what was his name again and then i would have to like search my memory and i'd be like don't tell me let me try to find it right in my memory and i don't want to look it up i want to find it in my memory that's one of my favorite things to do like is is to say is to tell myself david you know this guy's name right because you've been exposed to it x number of times you know that you know it's in your memory so um now it's a fun game to try to find that to scan to search around and find it but to watch to watch the process of trying to find it and to try to figure out what is it that leads you to that information okay is there an explicit um technique that works or is there um are there loose associations that you go to like i like examining that thought process of that's pretty cool searching the memory because it's very uh it's very mysterious the mind the human mind and the memory and the imagination and um like i mean i'm a little bit cautious about the imagination because of the orthodox and how the orthodox talk about don't don't indulge it don't indulge it don't explore it and all that but sometimes when i'm having trouble falling asleep at night i do tell myself okay you can uh allow yourself as long as it's not pornographic imagery you can allow yourself now to kind of let images come to you and i mean in eastern religion meditation they use i think they they shun imagery but they also explore going beyond imagery so i'm not sure how that works maybe you could talk about that but i don't know too much about um i don't know too much about imagery in eastern meditation in that in that context i know that they use a lot of visualization but that's like in um that's like a whole other field of um what's it called like the secret like it's like self-manifestation so it's kind of like here see yourself owning that that volkswagen jetta and it'll be yours i don't know why i picked a jetta but you know that kind of thing but i didn't really get too much into what's a because this episode is brought to you by jeddah and i'll stand by for those peace announcements do you ever watch your youtube videos and they have like they're just having a conversation and then suddenly the segway segway into the sponsor have you seen that i'm not well yeah i guess with pints with aquinas there's like different things but it's it's like you know the um catholic content yeah it's all it's all like catholic stuff there that they're advertising so if i see the um what's the what's the lent program that all the dudes do and they all brag about it and they all have to talk about it exodus 90. okay i'll do man don't worry about it tired of hearing about it it's like so overly catholic it's annoying it's like okay we get it you like to fast that's cool we got to be real men here like uh yeah yeah yeah that whole man's movement i've never really looked into it too much it's cool it's got benefits and even the exodus 90 program is cool i just don't like somebody imposing me you know with like cold showers oh yeah yeah you know what i mean like one of my guests uh talked about that and i'm like oh my god you must be a saint to do that like no that's the thing is that it like it's the it's the asceticism but like like i don't know i i have a maybe it's because i'm jealous i'm probably just jealous it's okay like it's okay to be jealous right well i mean it's okay you just can't be envious okay is that it yeah yeah it's jealousy is jealousy is you want the good thing that they have and envy is you don't want them to have it and you want them to be deprived of it and you want them to suffer because do i want them no i don't want any of that for them i just don't want them to talk about it no because it's just like because it equates it equates asceticism with holiness and it's like well yes and no it's like saying like suffering and sorrow equate love it's like they only equate love they only merit something is if you intentionally use them um alongside of love so like sorrow you know and and uh and uh self-deprecation or only only working if we're doing it for the love of god and doing it for the love of man otherwise in and of itself it has no merit so like me you know like showering in cold water and not watching netflix for 90 days to talk about it with a bunch of bros doesn't mean anything unless of course i'm you know using it to become more humble and using it to get to golf yeah so um but i guess i shouldn't call anybody out on that yeah yeah yeah well you know i mean honestly i think okay i think that um i agree with you that there could be pride involved like jesus said don't be like the hypocrites that show their they're wearing ashes on their head and sackcloth and all that with their fasting and all that sort of thing don't make a public display because they've already had the reward right you're better off saving your reward for heaven and all that so um i agree with that but i also i mean i can't help but admire people that have any discipline or any self-control or any temperance or moderation like i just can't help but admire them even if even if they're doing it for all the wrong reasons i still think wow right and even if it's amazing for the reason for the wrong reasons there's no real way to say to like put a finger on it and say like see that one's doing it for the wrong reasons we just don't know we don't know the hurt so but here's the cool thing about stepping on the gas going full throttle with that stuff so like i always have a hard time there's a certain group on youtube um uh gabby after hours he does some really good stuff um and he like talks about the rosary but a lot of them are really hyper into four a day you know and like dude my whole life changed since i've since i've been praying for a day the complete rosary yeah which is like admirable but at the same time it's that's a big that's a big time commitment and so um i'm like you know it is possible it's definitely possible because like i saw this and i was like you know what i'm gonna i'm gonna make an attempt to do this and i did it for an extended period of time over december and january wow um and it was a really cool experience but it's a really but here's the thing though david like you do it at the expense of other things so like spiritual reading kind of kind of drops down because you don't really have time to do that um like the bible or watching like like watching netflix yeah well no but and then and then you also find that a lot of the time to get it done to meet your commitment for the day you're praying at inopportune times so i'd be like shopping at the mall and i'm like praying and half praying half shopping and it's like you can't you can't really do one or the other very well you know and uh but the cool thing is about that is that you um it's like working out you only know your boundaries you only know what you're capable of by accidentally doing too much or by doing too little like you you come to learn more about yourself and about the practice through um committing yourself to doing to doing something that's out of your normal range and then from that experience i was like oh five is nothing well and whereas five used to really um you know five decades would like there'd be days when i'm just like i don't wanna i really don't wanna do it it would like emotionally crush me because i'm just like oh i feel like i'm being drugged down by this dead weight yeah and um and you know from that experience it's like you know one one rosary versus four rosaries is um very very doable and there's no reason why because there's no reason why you can't do it there's so many opportunities throughout the day or you can you can go back to your prayer you can break it up yeah you can go back to it and so um so while i don't necessarily think that like um i don't know there's just something about harping on quantity yeah um that i that i always have a real struggle with you know i like understand where they're coming from because you can't see really good fruits come from it um but you can also see you know like some of the negative aspects of it too yeah i i can be uh i'm gonna be honest here and it might be embarrassing but um if i if the church didn't so strongly recommend the rosary i just would not pray it i would not pray i would not pray i would not pray because right i don't it's not my natural instinct it's not like it's not something where i felt like i'm benefiting from it it's only because the church says hey this is really important and uh all the popes and all the indulgences and all the saints and everyone like i mean i just i can't ignore that i cannot i cannot ignore the weight that the magisterium gave it and the saints gave it and that everyone's giving it i just can't ignore that but right left to my own devices if i didn't know about all that i just would not do it i would i my prayer life would be a lot simpler right because i wouldn't do the rosary i wouldn't do any really fixed prayers ever what would you do i would just do the little spontaneous prayers that i love so much like just i love you and thank you and please help me and i'm sorry that's it you know that's it like just little ejaculatory prayers like ding ding ding ding and maybe maybe the jesus prayer like the jesus prayer i do have an attraction to it i do pray it i pray it's like my back burner prayer that's just it's if i find myself unloaded it's ray it's ready to come out like if i'm frustrated and if i'm annoyed and which happens a lot like when i'm when i lack patience i go to the jesus prayer you know that's cool yeah yeah that's really cool and i'm finding that i'm as i'm getting older and as sort of the past two years of pandemic and the lack of access to the sacraments i find that i'm more impatient and irritable and just nasty and so the jesus prayer comes out a lot like today i ripped my jacket like carrying because my bikes get stolen like there's no tomorrow i think it's karma because i used to steal bikes when i was a kid and uh so i've had like 20 or 30 bicycles stolen in my adult life from for real from me yeah yeah wow dude so i think that's a bit of karma but i try to accept it you know i just accepted and i thank god for humbling me in that way and for giving me the punishment in his life and these sorts of things but i was carrying my my new used bike because now i just buy used bikes because i lost so much money on expensive bikes that got stolen but um i was carrying my used bike up the staircase because i can't leave it outside and i live on the third floor so it's a lot of lugging bike heavy bikes up the stairs and i get my jacket gets dirty and today i ripped it like carrying this bike up a narrow stairwell and uh things like that like just that aggravate me and i was just annoyed and so there's this impulse to say i think i've mentioned to you this to you before where i have an impulse to say jesus christ as a as a curse word like a lot of people do and i just flow it into the jesus prayer and keep praying that over and over again cool but that initial moment is genuine frustration and it's a pejorative use of that word jesus christ right and so i just i don't beat myself up about it i just say no that's not the way and i just roll with the the proper use of the word and the name because it's a powerful name really cool it's a powerful name it's a powerful name um even for satan he wants to inspire me to misuse the name it's powerful for him and it's powerful for the good guys right so it's like just like sex like it's sex is good for satan because he can win a lot of souls with sex and sex is good for god because he can win a lot of souls with sex right so it's saying with food say you can win a lot of souls with food and god can win a lot of souls with food right the misuse of food and the proper use of food the misuse of sex and the proper use of sex like every good is a tool for satan and a tool for god for both of them to win souls that's how i see it yeah i really like that i think that's cool that you like reorient yourself to do something because that's really all you can do once you uh you know once you decide to to to make a change is just continually redirect until one day it just comes naturally or that stuff just kind of sloughs off like if i said the f-bomb instead then i couldn't really there's no prayer that stops it starts with the f-word right just kidding i'm kidding i'm kidding i'm sure that they're i'm sure there are tons of them what no not the ejaculatory ones the ones that are uh the ones that are off the cuff i'm sure those are the ones that contain the f word you know um they're very genuine i i think that uh there's something to be said about humanity admitting their their dirty broken awful just situations and meeting god in that situation um i think it's cool this conversation is reminding me of uh oh kieran says aidan is gay i didn't know that i think we have to end the conversation i don't speak with gay guests and uh he says hey aiden great shirt so uh yeah i just it's good karen i just read he should hop on the call here even though we don't have a lot of time left we have about half an hour left um the uh i just read a quote by a saint and he said um the reason that humility is the best tool we have one of the reasons i'm paraphrasing here obviously one of the reasons is because satan doesn't understand humility he just has no clue about humility he's never experienced it he's not capable of it he doesn't get it it doesn't make sense to satan like it just he there's nothing for him to grab a hold of with humility it's just completely foreign to him and this is a very long paraphrase of a really pithy uh statement which i wish i could uh regurgitate but i can't remember what he said but the basic idea was satan doesn't get humility he just just doesn't understand it and that's why it's so effective against him so what are your thoughts because it can because it confounds him yeah it seems that all the virtues are like that he doesn't understand love either and um uh humility is one of the weapons um i think it's it's the mentioned in the ways of mental prayer um dom fahody la hodi vitalis la hodi um uh like like if you find yourself doing something in prayer that's wrong or incorrect you use it as a moment to humble yourself and then you're you're brought to a place that's better having humbled yourself and having experienced that fault hey um hey sinner and that's why that's why we confound satan because it's something that's immediately used to turn sin into something um that warrants even greater grace cool hey your brother your brother looks wild i am i'm painting right now ah cool painting from painting for my buddy at uh at church oh wow yeah yeah yeah it's very good it's very good sandwich yes yes looking good bro okay oh shush you hey karen people at work saw uh some pictures of you and saw like your video of you making tea and they're like yeah aiden he's just like you he's just not as good looking oh i'm sure they said that no no that was legitimately one of the comments that was made yeah yeah it was awesome wait i wasn't even in that video i wasn't my face wasn't even no your face wasn't in that video but i made sure to back it up with a photograph of you so that way they would know that i'm that i am related to you but that you are like the uh you know um i'm the better verse hey did you okay did you do you did you do your cutting around the all the trim and everything uh no my my uh my boss david did that because i'm a noob at painting and uh yeah i wouldn't trust myself to do that otherwise i would have to tape it first and that would take more time so yeah so don't judge me basically i can give you i can give you one tip right now all right go ahead put more paint on the roller then you put more paint on the roller how does that sound why'd you let him in on this uh this conversation this is uh this is gonna just happen this is this is really gonna flounder yeah no no no just let's just ignore him and he'll work he'll work and we'll talk and he'll listen he'll keep did you catch david's um comments on uh the jesus i caught his comments on uh remembering a buttload of prayers and everything following okay that's good yeah right it says that's a that's a good way to look at it saying jc in a derogatory way and then turning that into the prayer of jesus yeah yeah and then flowing with it so did you know uh i invited matthew murdoch and i sent him the link and he might join us if he gets home from whatever yeah wow that's awesome he emailed me and uh i guess you guys haven't talked to him in a couple of weeks or months weeks or months yeah it's been a while it's been a while shut up aiden okay fair enough so uh yeah that would be exciting i don't know he's been emailing me like once per month kind of thing like over the past two or three months and so how's it going i'm hoping i don't know anything i don't know anything he's just like hey i've been thinking about you and uh we should catch up and it never happens so i think he's probably busy and uh but let's hope that we can have a group chat sometime i'd like to get um nick stumphouser on here too you guys have met him right now oh yeah yeah it's awesome i haven't met nick no he's no i actually i don't know if i met him either i might have spoken with him via email but um okay yeah i don't think i actually talked with him put more but i would definitely be definitely down for that yeah so let's get back to the religious content so um humility uh just a real quick recap of what you just said before your brother came in sorry oh i said that you you were saying that satan's confounded by humility and i said that when you use humility um uh in moments of sinfulness you actually take the sin that you just committed and then you weaponize it against itself and you make it into a greater good and that's probably like the component of it that really confuses satan um because you have this opportunity to take whatever he's throwing at you and uh and use it for for good yeah and that would actually probably make him rage if anything else and you know which makes me very happy you know uh speaking of speaking of humility leading to happiness um i'm trying because i've been sort of mildly slash moderately depressed over the past two years because of covet and different things in my family and whatever um and because of not having access to the sacraments and stuff like that it's just like weakened me spiritually and you and i have talked we've talked privately about stuff like that but anyway um one thing i read i think it was saint alphonsus liguri and many other saints probably talked about how we need to have a simple a simplicity in front of god with our sins and we have to have always joy like the saints always had joy even if it made suffering and whatever sorrow for sin they always had joy so we need to have this joy and i think uh my goal as a christian is to use that as a litmus test like do i have the joy of christ if not then basically i'm sort of still enslaved by satan and so the the litmus test is to have the freedom to have the joy because when you feel bad about your weakness or your sinfulness because i've been more i've been more sinful this past two years than i was the previous 10 years combined um when you feel heavy when you feel sad when you feel guilty when you feel depressed when you feel all these things that's not the christian way that's not the christian way it's not and it's pride it's pride because he said oh how could i fall or how could i turn to eat my vomit like a dog you know like this this idea like it always comes back to me like i'm like a dog i'm just like a disgusting beast and i have no self-control and just you know worm and i'm just a faithless sinner and all this sort of thing and this sort of uh self-deprecation it's okay to a certain extent as long as you maintain your joy but when it becomes like a a toxic self-hatred or some kind of um darkness that's that's an indication that it's prideful and you need to remember like hey like that like uh saint teresa of avila said i think uh she said look this is what i do like when she would sin and her sins were nothing compared to mine but when she would sin she'd say to god this is this is what i do this is what i'm capable of this is what i bring to the table right so if you want more of that god then just continue to let me be me but if you want me to be christ-like then you need to you need to come and take the wheel as the protestants would say jesus take the wheel you know take control and let your will be done because if it's going to be my will it's going to be done this is what you get right this is what you get every time so it's a sort of like a simple um matter of fact statement that this is what i bring to the table nothing but ugliness sin selfishness whatever and i acknowledge that you already know that because you're god you know everything but like hey can we go back to where i'm in a state of grace and where i'm doing your will that would be great you know i mean that sort of matter of fact thing and um not getting heavy about the fact that oh my god like uh like over dramatizing dramatizing the what you bring to the table or pretending like you know suddenly um it's no longer the case because if i look back at my own personal history with sin it's like i was sort of sinning as a an atheist or whatever you want to call me for most of my adult life and then i had my conversion and then i had a lot of graces and i wasn't sinning as much and then with the past two years i started sort of reverting back to like a dog eating my vomit to a certain extent and i don't like it but the the displeasure and the heaviness is pride and if i were just like a saint i would just in a very clean clear matter-of-fact way say well yes of course this is what i do on my own without you without the sacraments and without a proper prayer life so i just want you to uh give your two cents on that i know it was a very rambling and sloppy portrayal of the the saints words and ideas but uh did you get the message what i'm talking about i did um and i would like to say that like i don't like the word more when it comes to like analyzing like our own sinfulness because i don't know if we have the vantage point necessary to say like oh yeah i'm sinning more because the uh the context has changed so like the longer you go uh like you know the the longer your walk is the more that you've been involved with your face things start to shift and there's less um less cookie and more and more you know more coal basically so like like you're not getting consolations you're not getting certain things like you did certain graces things just aren't handed to us after a while so like objectively you can say yeah i'm committing more of this sin and it's like well yeah maybe you've been committing more of that sin but the circumstances around it are that you've been um you've been here for a while and you've had a chance to like let like the fire die a little bit things cool down and so um you're not getting rewarded you're not getting rewarded in the same way so maybe that merit maybe how you're behaving now maybe your um maybe your responses to it are actually more uh beautiful in the eyes of the lord um compared to like when you first converted and you were sinning less and and and like being oriented towards holiness or or whatever you want to say um because you know uh it wasn't as it wasn't as difficult for you it was it was you know more god and less yeah you know less david the the image that comes to mind as you're speaking there is of the the little child i don't know how old but very uncoordinated helping uh his father or let's say mother okay helping the mother to make supper like to make the salad to cut the vegetables into or to make a cake or whatever it is um i'm just using this image because it's easy to understand how a child would make a mess in the kitchen we could use the image we could use the image in the work shed too of the boy helping his father to build a shelf or something but i like the cooking analogy best because it's not really not a big deal like if he makes a mess in the kitchen and like it's um you can still salvage the meal kind of thing and the parent knows the parent knows that the child is not ready to be an adult and to cook a proper meal but it's just training and um when the mother is holding the wooden spoon with the child and holding the hand of the child to make the stirring motion and the cake turned out beautifully and then the next time she sort of lets him stir on his own and add the ingredients on his own and he makes a big mess of everything and puts salt instead of sugar and whatever like the mother just smiles right because she knows there's no real harm done he's learning and uh it would just be it would just be prideful for that child to throw a tantrum when he realizes he's not like a michelin star chef yeah right karen what do you think um there's a so the one thing that david said uh i don't know if he was just talking about the saints in general but there's one saint i think of the russian church who said that um you know we shouldn't think that we're so sinful that god can't save us but we also shouldn't think that we're saints uh basically those two extremes are a delusion and rather we should say to ourselves that i'm a sinner but god loves me and i place my trust in my hope in him and so when i make a mistake i go to christ in his mercy and cain and panikiya will take care of it that's it nice uh kieran i got i got a notification that uh google meet only gives me one hour and it's been uh 48 minutes so quickly i want to get your take from the from the greek orthodox perspective um as you know as you know my wife is uh culturally greek orthodox and she is very very very sympathetic to uh the russians in the whole situation in europe with the ukraine she's very sympathetic and she showed me a couple of videos of uh greek orthodox priests and stuff like that she's very sympathetic and i tend to agree with her like i think i'm not naive enough to think that they're free from corruption or abortion or anything else in in the east but i do think that the people in the east do hate the corruption of the west and they don't want the corruption of the west can you just talk about that from an orthodox perspective okay so there's two splits so if yeah if you want to go if you want to go the greek route largely speaking and i belong to the greek church that's where i was received into the church in that jurisdiction but just keep in mind like i could go wherever i wanted but basically the greek church on the ground is very traditional but through the patriarchate and through the um the bishopric the greek church is typically more liberalized than any other than any other jurisdiction um so in terms of like i was at i was chanting at a pan orthodox vespers on saturday and um you know you could you could you could feel some like well i won't say too much but anyway there's there's a lot of opinion in the greek church about siding with uh ukraine and for us like what i say about it is that the geopolitics are very complicated and there's a lot we're not being there's a lot that we're being lied to about um and there's also a lot of prophetic words from the greek saints like saint paulios saint porphyrios a whole bunch of other saints basically who have said that russia is going to be the instrument of god's judgment yep to the west and um i totally i i fall in line with that position because um yeah putin's not a i don't agree with putin is but at the same time if we're looking at zielinski or any of the other presidents of the ukraine um that have been set up you know since to to now basically um it's all been cia run and it's uh really messy so they're they're what they're trying to do i mean russia basically said hey we have one stipulation you're taking all these countries around us and you're putting them into nato and you're trying to get them to join the eu ukraines where we draw our line don't push into ukraine don't have them join etc etc and that's the one thing that the us poked and said well we're gonna do that anyhow so all i know is that we're being lied to about a lot and the other thing is that patriarch uh kirill uh the the moscow patriarch he's not innocent either he should have condemned putin's actions in in invading quote because if you look at it in that sense it is technically an invasion though again i'm sympathetic um but he's been condemned by other uh russian bishops he's been not not condemned in the sense of like it's taken out of the diptychs not not being commemorated during liturgy stuff like that um so basically i see this as like another excuse for people to be russophobic and to uh trash on it's it's basically the cold war all over again um i just wanted to i wanted to emphasize more of the prophecies and from god's point of view the wrath of god and like king cyrus being used as an instrument of god in the old testament well well we've we've i mean look at ukraine now they're like number three in the world or whatever for stuff that i won't say but with children um okay that comes that comes that comes directly from the west and now we see the two one of the two biggest sins of the west number one would probably be abortion and the the second one would be pornography but yeah yeah um just in general just uh wait wait wait disgusting uh sexual exploitation google watches for keywords uh it's it's because it's the youtube i'm sure david will be fine because it's just small yeah yeah yeah i'm a small potato yeah um so how do you talk about it too but okay i was just like well how do you talk anyways so you have these two you have these two big things i'm rambling now but you have these two big you have these two big sins and uh for all the bad that russia has done and being aggressive or whatever um they you have to admit that since the fall of communism they have been a bulwark for the christian faith particularly in orthodoxy and their revitalization of not only our generation of people who are now spiritually inclined but also the east as a as a whole whether it's russia ukraine georgia all these countries they're now so traditionally minded that they won't even allow something like um a pride parade to go on so like that's important like that's really important stuff but of course because the west we would see that as something evil now even christians and uh heterodox christians within the west are seeing russia is completely evil even though they do all these really christian things so it's the whole thing is confusing and i mean like i said multiple saints have said um you know that russia would be the instrument of god's judgment basically yeah did y'all hear that pope francis is uh consecrating russia no way to to the immaculate no way yeah oh no way yep wow are you serious wow russia and ukraine wow when i don't know there was just an announcement today wow amazing i have to i have i have to ask like what is okay so like from the catholic perspective like because russia is not going to be like russia would not recognize that i'm just i would just be straight up now because we like the orthodox would look at that as um as uh heart worship basically we would look at it as like a form of nestorianism so like if russia is not receptive to being consecrated to the immaculate heart ukraine probably would be because there's lots of catholics in ukraine but russia not so much what's the like how does that play out in terms of fatima and all that kind of stuff if russia's not receptive to it doesn't matter um i don't know how i don't know if it works like that so like i don't know yeah um because are there are there russian catholics yeah yeah yeah very very tiny amount but yes um yeah i don't i don't really know like what this like i i don't understand how like i don't i don't know what the significance i guess would be because and fatima it was originally interpreted that russia would be converted to catholicism but when when sovietism you know um fell um and they saw that orthodoxy was having a revival within the russian church and the previous soviet bloc altogether um catholic theologians started reinterpreting it as well no they're just going back to orthodoxy but somehow that's what fatima meant all along and now this is not convinced of that there's debate among among even yeah among catholics you know what that means you know conversion to orthodoxy conversion to catholicism um yeah i don't know it's i don't know to be honest i'm not i'm not as interested in that stuff anymore as i used to be i guess but like i would think that it would be at least somewhat important that russia would get on that that russia would be on board with the consecration to be i don't think that's that that's how it works because the pope has has consecrated um the entire world um to to the immaculate heart and like consecrated different like countries to different things so i think it's just i mean he didn't like hey hey world is that cool he just did it well well if the entire world has already been consecrated then how come russia needs to be consecrated is our lady to be consecrated by name i don't i don't know who are you to question god wow that's that's under the presupposition that the pope speaks for god no we're talking about the apparition of our lady we're not talking about the pope oh well that's that's also operating under the presupposition that the apparition of our lady was yeah you don't have to you don't have to accept the apparition even we as catholics don't have to accept the apparition right be kind of foolish not yeah so if if it were if it were something that were demonically influenced for uh let's say what would be what would be the pitfall in my believing in it or not believing in it well i guess would be the question because um the question was your question was your question was um who are you to question god and my i'm saying that i don't presuppose that the apparition was legitimate so i don't think i'm questioning god well even even catholics are not obliged to believe that the apparitions are legitimate so it's kind of a moot point but i mean if i if i had a muslim and a jew come into my home and say individually in their own religious way i bless you and i ask the blessings of god to be upon you and your household and i want god to protect your household i would welcome that i would never question that i would i would celebrate that i would thank them i would add them to my permanent daily prayer list i would have nothing but gratitude and positive things to say to them and i would consider them my friends because they're helping me to get to heaven by bringing the blessings of god onto me and my household okay so that if i'm if i have that attitude attitude toward other monotheistic religions that aren't even christian imagine how i would feel as an orthodox about the pope of catholicism blessing uh bringing this blessing on the world by fulfilling uh what is ostensibly uh an apparition of our lady making a request right i would always see that as a positive thing always just like jesus said well just like jesus said if uh was it jesus who said it or was it saint paul who said uh as long as the name of christ is preached doesn't matter if it's for good reasons or bad right what was what did saint paul say read the bible whether they're with us is for whether they're with us or for us christ is being preached but the thing i i get what you're saying the sentiment is essentially that this person has a personal belief and they are wishing blessings upon me and how can that be a good thing and i would say on i would say on i would say on a personal level yes uh absolutely that person is is uh there's so many more pious muslims than there are christians probably yeah um but i but i would say that again um doctrine does matter and so like if we're talking about this on on the sacramental scale if we're talking about this on a global scale um and and also even on a let's just say a liturgical scale we would we sure it's it's one thing to have a muslim come into your home and say hey i'm going to pray for you yeah um and you could take that as one thing but it's a totally different thing to say you know uh we can pray together or um you know this is all basically um this is all good we don't need to actually hash out the differences so like we would never we would we we would never want to be confused i guess in those in those terms of like okay um this is a good thing that that other that catholics are seeing is a good thing and maybe pope francis has good intentions but um no thank you we don't believe in that so like he can do it but again like it would be something that we would we would say yeah it doesn't really mean anything because we don't number one it's not christ it's talking about uh the theotokos and number two it's the it's the immaculate heart which we don't affirm it's a it's a real big dip in theology there's a big uh chasm in that area so he's free to do it i suppose but uh i would say her heart is the flesh of christ i hope you realize that right her heart is the flesh of christ every every piece of her flesh is the flesh is the same flesh it's one flesh with christ i hope you do realize that it's the same flesh it's the same flesh it's the same flesh it's not a hard concept it's the same flesh mary's flesh is christ's flesh it's the same flesh i would like to think about that more yeah that mary was mary was mary was stretched wider than the heavens in order to be able to contain god the word within her womb and certainly she bore the savior of our souls but she bore christ in his human nature yeah his devi his divine personage was not difficult no but i'm not talking i think here one of the videos you sent to me was a was a monk talking about why the why god listens to mary um and her requests and it's because he borrowed a body and borrowed blood from her so like again yeah and and that's fine to say that it's ontologically the same i would have to look into more i don't know if that's accurate to say that and and number two um all of this again is operating off the presupposition that that that this is actually coming from the theotokos right right that fat amounts coming from that and i just i just don't i'm not convinced of that right but i'm not trying to be difficult yeah yeah yeah no problem but i'm just i i'm shocked and horrified that anyone would take exception with any honor that's prayed that's given to the blessed virgin mary any honor there's no honor that's too much honor and there's no praise that's too much praise other than saying that she's god she's not god she's a creature but other than saying that she's god almighty there's no praise that's too much praise there's no there's no attribution that's too much i don't think i don't think it's a matter of praise i think it's a matter of of splitting things i think it's a matter of splitting things up the whole notion again of immaculate heart and isolating that from any other particular part of the theotokos would be something we've just it's totally foreign to eastern orthodoxy so again i don't want to i'm not an authority i wouldn't want to speak and say yeah this is totally i would just say that classically speaking if you were to read like vladimir lawsky or any of the the contemporary theologians of our church they would categorically reject any type of heart fixation whether it's with christ or it's with the theotokos we just don't have that within our paradigm so that's why the problem of consecration to the immaculate heart in and of itself would be a problem right off the bat for us yeah and why russia why russia would just probably not be well not probably they would not be receptive to it i mean just based on that but you know what the thing is um blessings don't yeah the more that i think about it um they don't need to be it's not a blessing it's not a blessing it's it's a consecration it's a consecration different it's different yeah yeah and consecration is saying we're invoking the grace of god it naturally entails that and so again we would that would that would be difficult for us to affirm when you consecrate the host it's done by the grace the uncreated energies of god and so you're now saying that the immaculate heart this doctrine is on the same part as something like consecrating the bread and wine into the body and blood of jesus christ and i just personally can't affirm that no no it's not it's not it's not a consecration in that sense in that technical sense of the eucharist the consecration it's not you know you're conflating the two notions like when uh when i consecrate myself uh have you never consecrated yourself to jesus or to mary karen uh i mean not not consciously i i have my i have my um my dedication through christ i suppose so like hey christ uh you know jesus i try and pray to you every day i try and and devote myself to you and make every waking moment about you i suppose you could call that a consecration but as far as formally saying hey i consecrate myself to the body and blood or i consecrate myself to the immaculate heart like there's no there's real there's no notion of that within um you know that consecration it's a very precise term it's a very precise term uh we have tauntering too so you could be tortured into something you could be conscious of reader you could be i guess in a sense consecrated to that to that particular duty that particular instantiation of your walk with christ but um yeah it's not something that i don't think that you would undertake yourself apart from what your spiritual father says hey here's your prayer roll try and live by this just do that kind of thing you know what i mean i don't know if i'm making sense i'll let your brother respond while i search youtube i was actually looking at you david because i was wondering what you were uh what you were typing so like i heard some words i'm like those words are too big i don't care i don't know what he's saying the consecration i'm reading wikipedia here the consecration of russia to the immaculate heart of mary by a specific act of a reigning pope along with all other catholic bishops of the world was allegedly ordered in a marian apparition by our lady of fatima in 13 july 1917. consecration of russia as a country would usher in a period of world peace um see and that makes that gives me pause too because when they say peace and safety than war and destruction so i i mean if i'm being honest like the the whole idea it says that um if you like if you just read what you just said there basically um can you reread that that first couple lines that you said there the consequence of something the consecration i'm sorry yeah so the bishops the catholic bishops and the standing pope that that it's a very basic principle it's a very basic thing and i should have said it already but obviously we do believe in the pope we do think that there's a pope we think that there's such thing as catholicity of bishops but we don't believe that like the catholic church affirms the orthodox uh apostolic succession it says we have valid sacraments via apostolic succession yeah but we would just we would say we would not give the same courtesy unfortunately with the catholic church and so right off the bat again it's another presupposition that we just wouldn't affirm based upon the idea that he has no authority in our paradigm the pope has zero authority in our paradigm at this point unless he repents and comes back and says hey i'm gonna renounce all these heresies and hey uh here the news the news appears in the wikipedia article it says pope francis announced he would consecrate russia and ukraine to the immaculate heart of mary on 25 march 2022 at st peter's basilica in rome wow a consecration ceremony is also scheduled in fatima portugal by the papal elminar cardinal conrad krajewski wow i'm i'm very excited i'm very excited and uh aidan how do you feel about that uh actually it makes me ask a bunch of questions so like sister lucia i think she said that she said it was completed yeah she did and so um part of me wonders why like pope francis who seemingly hasn't really had any kind of um like spiritual gusto or he hasn't had it he hasn't all of a sudden he's you know like uh to quote to quote my uncle like lacking in spiritual balls in a lot of ways um not nice i know david um but uh why all of a sudden he's just well i remember saying you remember saint paul before his conversion yeah yeah fiery one way and then he was firing the exact okay so you're saying you can't be fiery communist antichrist authentic for fiery i think i'm just kidding i'm kidding i'm kidding i'm kidding yes i know you are but come on come on david okay can i just ask one question before the time's out yes okay before they drop the news okay so in not not tasteful not tasteful so in the book of revelation when it says that the antichrist will usher in peace and safety and the false prophet will come and he will he will announce his coming et cetera et cetera says that if it were possible even the very elect would be deceived yeah can you imagine a situation in which oh my gosh we're on the brink of world war three yeah pope francis comes in consecrates russia and ukraine now all of a sudden peace is is shouted and then we have pope francis working with somebody else in tandem and people are just like oh my gosh he's he's now just redeemed his entire pontificate because let's be honest even though you look at him as infallible when speaking ex cathedra he still has had a very shaky and rocky you know last years he would redeem himself in one shot and people would be like oh my gosh he just brought in peace and safety and all this stuff and there would be so many catholics that would be like okay that was really good that he did that all these people that have been like okay like on on the verge kind of like aiden cause i know aidan's a little on the verge where he's like um i question things with this guy i question things and um lord forgive me for blowing up his spot but like those are things where it's like doesn't that make you question at all like okay it is possible maybe it's possible that the pope could be either of the false prophet or uh usher in a false arab everything is manufactured nowadays too karen to be honest with you though my mind didn't go there with that my mind didn't go oh i know your mind is i know i even with the couf everything was manufactured and lied and i would say that ninety percent of it yeah even with night with ninety 90 of what we're being told about this war in ukraine it's probably mostly a lie so like if that's the case if most of it is probably not even trustworthy to begin with then like how much does peace and security even mean if it comes i want to say i want to say something in my own defense which is i'm excited i'm going to remain excited about the consecration no matter what you say do it and and don't listen to me and also i have a lot of checks and balances in my faith whereby i can recognize a wolf in sheep's clothing okay um there are many many checks and balances and litmus tests that i do like you know we just go down the list like abortion contraception uh unrepentant homosexual acts um you know all the time all the ten all the ten commandments like i mean the traditional the traditional the traditional all of the traditional teachings about family sexuality and uh that sort of stuff uh contraception all these things are litmus tests for uh jesus christ versus antichrist okay and divorce divorce pornography all these sort of things like it's so obvious satan can't help himself even when he tries to pretend to be a christian like with a cult leader like david crash or whoever there's always sexuality sneaks in there always or corruption with money or corruption with whatever okay so it's i don't i don't want to be proud and say that it's easy to recognize the antichrist at work in the world but it's pretty easy it's pretty easy right like i know i love you david i love you but that's literally the vatican that's what all of those things that you just said the vatican has indulged in time and time again i suppose but it's easier something that that even that even an atheist can look at and be like oh i know for a fact that like this person this dude is doing this evil thing like discernment comes from the holy spirit if you don't have the holy spirit then how do you have true discernment so like if a person from the outside who has no relation to christ whatsoever can look at the vatican and be like what they're doing is wrong like what does that really even say like that doesn'

CVS Live Guest - 2022-05-10 - Nikola and Aidan

so i am live i'm here all by my lonesome and we're going to see if anyone shows up it's supposed to be a group chat between myself aiden lisney and nicola krisik so we'll see i'll share the link right in the chat does this work right in the uh live chat so we'll see it's like herding cats trying to get these people uh together because i don't think the time zone thing is a big big issue but it's just uh schedules getting the schedules to match up but it is 9 00 p.m they both said they're in i know uh what it's like on a weekday evening things happen so they may or may not show up we'll see right now i'll just chit chat to kill the time i'm excited i'm very excited to be working on the archives the archives of cvs i've got some pre-recorded audio only episodes i think you've seen on my website i've published some of them um i'm working on right now i'm working on kieran kieran part two so maybe i'll show you how can i do this can i do this maybe i'll show you makes it easier if i just show you so you can see karen park sorry aiden part one aiden lisney part one down here that was recorded on june 23 2019 and oh lo and behold hey speaking of speak of the devil i was just talking about you we're actually live already no way um who's joining who's who's in nicola oh that's awesome supposed to be but uh did you get my do you check your emails regularly or yeah it did um did you get my most recent email i guess he did because there's a link in it right yeah it just said group chat click link right yeah yeah yeah yeah but there was one just before that i don't know if i included you in it where uh nicola is like oh nobody likes me and it's not happening and whatever i'm like no aidan's in i mean i'm in nathan's in what are we chop liver i mean you need kieran what do you need is he the cool ultimate cool kid kieran and who's the other one oh well matthew murdock that would be cool but he always comes back like two days later oh i just got the invitation if you have his phone number text him right now live okay hold on wait where's nicola uh well that's the thing he's like he's like oh no one likes me but uh i emailed him i said no we're we're in we're doing this um so let's see well the first email said i think i couldn't see who is sending emails because he doesn't he doesn't know how to hit reply to all so he always replies to me maybe i did that i don't think you did that by the way is this centered appropriately because you're always supporting me you could scoot towards me a tiny bit wait can you see me on your screen yeah i can see your can you see me are we sideways are we side by each on your no i see like a big if you see a big david and a small ayden oh okay so you can move to your uh left live chat you're left sorry i was texting matt murdock yep yeah baby guess what guess what i was doing just before we met here on this live chat i don't want to guess [Laughter] i was editing aiden lisney part two from 2019 you have a part two pre-recorded audio only interview that i never published and i'm oh i've never edited it it's just sitting there with a whole bunch of other archives holy cow it's like i was so excited to discover that i was gonna go in and do a matthew murdock episode because i know i've got a bunch of his but i'm like hey what else have i called they sell i said what else have i got in here and it's like holy cow i got an aiden lizzy like that's funny dude i didn't i mean we've talked so many times that it's like i don't realize it there i guess it makes sense that there's like enough times that it would be archived but and it's good it's good it's exciting it's like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah this is about when you're on fire for your faith like you really believed and i'm just kidding but but no but i i was in a much better place like that's the that's the embarrassing thing it's like i really went downhill uh uh christmas of uh 2019 and we all didn't want to say anything to you we're like ah uh we call you lukewarm david when we're referring to you it's horrible it's horrible just i went through such a rough time but i'm coming back i'm coming back who's on your shirt it's the comeback these are some rock band i have no idea the reason i like this shirt is it doesn't look good but it is extremely thin and lightweight and it is long so i love it's not so much that i love tucking my shirts in but i hate not being able to tuck my shirt in i hate when you tuck a shirt in and then part of it like part of it gets untucked and your belly is exposed first world problems yeah definitely dude but i didn't picture you as the type that would like to tuck their shirt in anyway i feel like you'd be like a t-shirt jeans my shirt my shirt is not tucked in right now because okay because you're not wearing pants i don't have to take i don't have to tuck my shirt in but i have to have the option of tucking it in you understand so i have to be able to tuck it in like when i sleep at night i wear uh pajamas well i'm actually not wearing pajamas and i'm wearing shorts because it's actually hot here for the first time yeah but anyway quick what's hot for you what's what is hot right now 60 degrees it's like 65. uh let me see weather.com right now it's 20 but it feels like 30. so celsius celsius okay okay 68 feels like yeah what's the real feel the real feel is only the i don't know but um yeah okay today it got up to uh 30 for realsies like it was up to 30 i think if i'm reading this correctly what is 30 degrees is that like one like close to 100 fahrenheit i lied no i didn't didn't today it only got up to 24. uh let's ch check 30. hold on c in f that would be 86 is that good 87 yeah that's hot it was around 88 today here i want to say oh yeah yeah it's 73 right now so it was a hot one mowing the lawn do you have oh yeah do you have a nicola crisix phone number that way you can text shoot him a text i don't i don't if i did wait so were you were you chatting with him were you chatting with him and then he just emailed all disappointed that it's not happening i said yeah it is happening buddy let me he's maybe he's chicken [__] he's backing out no i don't know tell him to join because i really i just listened to i just watched your chat with him okay um we could just in the meantime we can kill time and uh you can tell me what you thought of kieran's thing with brenda brenda's interview with me i listened to if you listen to any of it so i listened to like two minutes of brenda's thing yeah um and then i got distracted because like you know um you know easily just easily distracted um as illustrated by that um no but i saw on the sidebar like there was a conversation between brenda and um matt murdock and i'm like oh i wanna check that out and so then i listened to like six or seven minutes of that and then um from there i saw the so bad i saw the illustration that you put for kieran's little thing with the with jesus and the church fathers and that was the church fathers those were the holy innocents that were slaughtered oh is that what that was yeah that's more fitting um he told me karen told me to do that he told me to do that so i can't did he really he said that would be a great image for that yeah that is it it's really good well it pulled me right and also seeing the lisney name i'm just as um you know narcissistic enough to see something that mildly pulls me into it and i'm like oh well that's kind of like me did you like that i put the music yeah i did i did i thought kieran i thought kieran like sent that to you to be honest with you i was like i thought kieran out of the music i didn't even mention it to him i just did it without his position and like because you told me you kind of told me that you'd like to see that everywhere so yeah i want to see that anytime there's a technical difficulty you just put you just put that chant we should put it now like waiting for nicola he hasn't shown up i think that would be very appropriate but yeah just just waiting dead silence and then music well we could like break out our smartphones and just like not look at each other and just do like scrolling and whatever like both of us on the screen well that would be fun that'd be good get a lot of hits for that the kids like that these days they do narrating games as well they can really dude so totally unrelated but not really because it's it's catholic um i watched uh the exorcist today um the original one the original one and uh rachel came in at one point she was watching because it was just the the handsome father uh charis you know he was he was chatting and uh and then all of a sudden close up with linda blair and he was like oh that's disgusting why are you watching this and i'm like it's not that scary she's just like that's that's not why you don't like just don't watch it it's terrible i'm like nah it's good so i watched the the full thing i started it the other day and i finished it today and i was like that wasn't that was actually from what what i've read about it i thought it was a surprisingly sober take on exorcism obviously there were like a couple of things that um like that you read about where you're like okay so obviously the length of time that one that like deliverance ministry takes it's longer and it's like it's more played out like a couple other things were exaggerated but other than that i thought oh that's actually a pretty appropriate um i didn't think it was scandalous to be honest with you i mean people always go to like the whole crucifix um scene where she sexually stabs her junk yeah and they call it the crucifix you know masturbation and i didn't even i'm just like okay it was horribly it was a horrible desecration but it was so violent that there was nothing there was nothing pleasurable pleasurable about it wasn't intimidating it wasn't to no no everybody says it kind of talks about it like it's like horror porn but i didn't get that at all i was like oh this is actually a surprisingly catholic um film that um kids should definitely not see but i thought it um i thought it was uh um from all the books that i've read about exorcism and i've read i've read a couple um and those are usually the only books that i can actually start start and finish um because i you know darkness we love darkness more than than the light but um but i was like oh no that actually seems to be like dead on and it was in my mind kind of a triumph because minus the fact that there wasn't there should have been a little bit more jesus in it but it was it was a triumph in my mind because they had this mainstream success where they had the two hero priests um like they both died but they both died the manliest death ever in service to somebody else and um gave this honest portrayal of um uh you know um demonic attack they didn't show too much weakness uh in the face of the satan and the demons no i didn't well the well the one dude was father karis the the one who flings himself out the window he was definitely not smart in the way that he handled uh the demon but um the one who died of the heart attack the older the older one he was like the experienced exorcist and obviously priests don't go like you know jumping out windows during most exorcisms and most of the time it's the level of danger is not you know on par with that because obviously they had to make it like good for the movies but um but yeah i thought that they handled it well they went in there they faced their fears they showed what true men were they were um chased in the face of sexual obscenity um they were caring they were compassionate there was just something really cool about that about seeing a couple of catholic men um like come in there and you know act in the name of their faith without flinching and then they sold that to a mainstream audience which is like you know how often does that happen i watched it in the 70s i know it was the 70s because i was still living in my childhood house and we moved when i was just turning uh from nine to ten so i know i was uh nine years old or younger and i know uh that it was the seventies um because in 1980 i turned 10. so um it came out probably in the mid to late 70s right but 73 oh yeah okay so it's been a while since i've seen it that's my point that's my only point here so what is so you saw when you were a kid but you haven't seen it as an adult i it i don't think i've seen it as an adult i may have seen it once or just like without paying attention like normally when i watch a movie i can't not pay attention i'm laser focused on if i like it or if i don't like it i'm just laser focused my only solution is to turn it off because i can't not look at it i'm raised on the television so i'm like hypnotized by the television no matter what right so um if i don't like it i just have to shut it off or change the channel or just do something but it can't be on in the room and i can't ignore it um so i may have caught glimpses of it or watched parts of it or whatever but i don't think as an adult that i've watched it partly because it did freak me out as a child like it did freak me out um but i think since converting like 12 years ago i think i must have at least played with the idea of watching it again and now i'm thinking maybe i will watch it again but you should fast forward through the nastier bits maybe i just didn't look directly at stuff like during a certain day because not really there's no nudity there's no puking um yeah no no because she does like stab herself in the vagina with a close effect that's the most disturbing thing yeah and then like makes obscene gestures and says horrible things towards her mom and towards the people around but i mean again it's not um it's not gratuitous yeah it's not like you don't see that and think like oh yeah like my worst fear a couple years ago um during uh we i had to uh what was it i had to um kind of dissect a cat and my teacher was like aidan come over you're gonna break his chest and all i could think was like i hope i don't like this i hope this doesn't lock unlock those cat titties no i mean i didn't you know like some kind of weird just like gee the sound of their bones breaking was great actually i yeah you know what i mean something like that yeah you know but um but no when you when you watch it you're just it's not um not a turn on it's not a turn on though it's it's it's more like you can watch it with a catholic filter and bike you're like oh that's um that's par for the course is she is she uh a good catholic girl in between her uh bouts of disgusting grossness no they're a religious um and that's the interesting that's the interesting thing about it the mom um is an actress um seemingly good family i think they're divorced daughter they even show the origins of it too she like at the beginning of the movie they like a ouija board and they're like hey where'd you find this like oh i found it in the house and she's like showing her mom how to do it she's like yeah new house yeah they're staying in a house because they're acting in a film oh okay and so i think that they're having a house built for them and they're staying in this nice house but they were affluent enough rich enough that they have like people working for them and um so mom and daughter they hired satan to babysit the kid for example basically yeah yeah no no but i mean it always starts out this way and that's the other cool thing is that it's like informative because they pull out a ouija board and she's just like how does that work and she's like oh mr howdy talks to me and uh like shows her mom how how she does it and um and it's just like clearly the lesson is always if you have a ouija board just throw it away like i don't know like but i guess it wasn't a cliche back when that film was made like you know um that you don't that you don't touch a ouija board but i don't know if you've ever seen the shirt in hot topic they have these like awesome like 50s decals of like these kids like um you know how they have like like dennis the menace type of cartoons where there's a kid like playing with a yo-yo or pulling his wagon well it's a bunch of kids sitting around a ouija board and just says let's summon demons and it's like a joke but i mean like obviously that's the only like logical conclusion of using a ouija board now anybody that would use it you know um like have no excuse uh well that's the whole state of that territory the satanic panic was like the 80s it really kicked off where they're talking about the ritual sexual abuse and all that sort of thing sure um so in the 70s i mean i think it was less um as you were saying it was sort of less on the radar of the general pop culture so uh i don't know who the director was was it ridley scott or someone or no it was no maybe that was the author i don't know who the director was but the director now the writer of it was his last name was blatty but i can't i can't really remember because the guy um because i i think maybe if i'm correct the the director was also the author because it was a book first um hold on william friedkin friedkin oh okay william friedkin yeah music by johnny written by yeah so william peter blatty was the author and um i don't know if friedkin was a catholic i know the author obviously was but um sounds jewish to me you can be jewish and catholic that's true that is true uh i'm just looking at his wikipedia thing here his parents were jewish immigrants from ukraine cool so i was right no mention of christianity uh eggs or cysts so he's best known for the exorcist and the french connection and the funny thing is like with those movies um the people involved in them uh like you think that you hear more conversion yeah you know stories come about from them because it's like weird stuff apparently happened on the set of that film and um you know people died after filming it and i think we're injured like the one of the gentlemen um who played a director in the movie um that was his last film um he died right after making it he died in the movie his character dies in the movie and then he died after making it um i think linda blair the woman who played um reagan the main character she didn't get work for the longest time because nobody wanted to hire the she was taking that girl she was typing she was yeah and for yeah i mean kind of like a if you play jesus you're you're never going to work that guy converted right that guy converted from uh yeah no he was already a catholic he was already a catholic he just underwent a deepening conversion i believe so i mean who wouldn't i mean i guess joaquin phoenix didn't after he played jesus but was he catholic to begin with who yeah no no actually he was involved in a uh christian cult in south america um uh the children of god or something like that are you serious yeah so his his uh i read um river phoenix's one of his biographies and um it spoke about them uh living in south america they uh they lived in one of those like weird hippie commune jesus groups which eventually uh disbanded because of the um widespread uh sexual abuse that occurred and um but they used to do like a lot of busking that's how they like learned how to be entertainers they used to like play um fishy music i think they called it fishy flirting or something like that what's fishy flirty that's when the sexy young members of the children of god would go out and bust and flirt with people to bring them into the cult we just watched a documentary about it a month or two ago and it was very disturbing very disturbing especially since uh one of my wife's best friends belonged to that cult as a child and really the family still belongs to it um yeah i won't mention too many details so no one can connect the dots but yeah it's uh it may have mellowed out a little bit by the time this guy was born because he was i think he was born in the 80s or something or in the 90s or something young younger guy but uh yeah the the the cult leader was quite sick i mean as most cult leaders are we've been watching a lot of these cult documentaries there's a rather boring documentary about a weight loss christian cult okay called way down and the w-a-y but the cult was called way down w-e-i-g-h or however you spell whey and uh you know she was an evangelical oh oh is that on hbo yeah it's really badly done hey you need to shave your chin so you just have the um goatee no not even a goatee you need to have a fu manchu you could be like google burdello um who's this uh turn your lights off nicola yeah show the beauty you got it flaunt it man i used to i used to turn your mic away from your mouth it's too loud you're too loud and too sexy oh yeah you know what hold on whisper to us whisper to us in your sexy voice okay hold on yeah so how's it going thank you for calling hold on okay is that a little better or still loud it's good still alive no you're good how about now that's better how do you like me now better how you like yeah aiden we tried three times to get uh the video with uh nicola and one of the times his audio stopped working so i was over dubbing him with an indian accent as his lips moved i wish i kept that i wish i kept it it was so funny but it was also very racist racially insensitive that's excellent yeah i i wonder how that would have looked on the video that would have been funny man nichola i watched your or i listened to your interview today with david and i was like the my favorite part um it was also my least favorite part because david you were reading a prayer for tears right and it was way too long um but nicola your face you you closed your eyes and you like you had the patience that i didn't have and um uh it was great no i mean like i'm just like man what's going on david like this is like you're not memorizing this this isn't gonna happen um but nicola your face you were just so angelic and peaceful the whole time i'm just like i could watch that man sleep in the non creepiest way like if he looks that peaceful i'd like to see the thought bubble though it did it went on it went on long but i i wasn't expecting that long neither but i said i'm gonna soak it up so that's what i did i closed my eyes to soak it up and then i was like wow this is a long prayer but good but then i said no way in hell is he memorizing this challenge accepted challenge accepted challenging better there's better challenges out there like not that you know like that's just the spring challenge the sprite challenge where i have to drink it without burping the whole bottle how much is the whole bottle it's like 250 350 milliliters or whatever it is i'll do that one if you want sure no but david yeah you're sweet let me guess because you want to memorize that because you want the gift of tears is that correct that's correct you know you don't have to do that to get the gift right you just have to ask for it it's not like pre-wreck like memorize this prayer and then that happens but i i want to i'm not expecting to get the gift of tears anytime soon so i want to have that prayer memorized so that i can just at any time i want i can just soak myself in it i suppose if you died went to heaven met god face to face and then you had to fumble in your back pocket you're like wait and pulled it up and then read it to him i'm sure that it wouldn't have the same effect too much on you you're one performance it's like i did this for you lord so i had i had the gift of tears for two years strong i mean i can cry about anything when it came to jesus christ the prayer mass anything i would instantly start crying for two years but wow now that was two years ago so for the past two years um a lot of it most of it vanished and i i only have it at some times now like christmas and easter i'll get it no no i can get it even at the eucharist randomly sometimes i don't know i don't know how or why but i walk up there and there i am legally i'm like i'm trying to hold it back too you know let it flow man awesome but here's the funny thing about it so the reason i mentioned it is because if you get it ha uh be ready to have people look at you and think everything is wrong and think you need help so they're gonna come at you do you need me to pray for you everything okay yeah what's wrong i got and i'm you don't understand no everything is perfect you know that's what i tell them but just say just read them the gift of tears prayer by saying augustine and they'll they'll soon lose interest in all of your problems but one priest got it right away he asked me are you okay and i said yeah yeah i said just um and then i try to start explaining he said ah he goes you got the gift of tears he goes that's good cool priest man sounds like a good one yeah but here's the here's the funny thing though for my journey for two years i was floating man full of consolation and just but this past two years man a lot of it's going away it's almost like i have to learn how to walk you have to learn how to walk again and just be back in the world in reality and struggles and yeah even the fighting just to go to mass and you know the normal the normal stuff the new normal the new normal yeah that's supposed to be uh that's supposed to be a blessing when that happens i've been um been reading about different forms of mental prayer and i've been like trying to practice um lectio divina and it's it's great it's a lot of fun um but that's because i'm so new at it that it's like oh um this is this is gonna be great it won't start meeting much until you start laboring with it and you know um like getting past the initial you know and then getting into like the whole you know slogging out putting the cross on your shoulder and like walking down the street every day same time same place that's when it really starts to um you know count for something because god always you know takes away the cookies at some point it's funny i needed it i needed it myself it's a blessing because i a little judgment started coming my way and i'm looking at people like why do they act like it's so hard to go to church once a week and why did i act like it's so hard to pray and why did you know like i started getting that but this was a good check-in for me you know to to remember the struggle yeah it's awful when i read about this far i'll carry you this far but i'm putting you down right now right there that's where you get off [Laughter] but that carry was wonderful man amazing every time i try to put it in words i can't so kieran says uh nicola i do i do love you but tonight i was on full dad duty because my priorities are all screwed up and i haven't realized yet what's the most important thing in my life signed signed kieran so i appreciate his honesty on that yeah yep because he became an all-star on the cvs podcast and he i don't understand how he you know he he's not putting that first he's playing hard to get with us because he's too good for us it's got to be some kind of game he's plotting don't forget he's he is and platinum nichola don't think i'm not aware of what's going on right now i know why you're joining this chat you're trying to bump yourself up in the stats you're just like everybody like i just wanted to jump in and say hello and you know very well well played sir well-played what do you mean this was all the mastermind david his plan worked his plan is working should i say puppet masters yes pretty soon pretty soon we know we're going to be sending him it's like just venmo me before before the chat just spend money 20 bucks and i'll just be all of us paying money to get on but so i didn't get a chance to wash up yet i still got paint all over my hands a little thing i was spraying today i got paint in my beard i thought this wasn't happening when i didn't get i didn't see any more responses on the email so it's because you guys you guys are old school you don't know or your new school you don't know how to hit that reply all button because everyone's replying to me just to me so no one else can see all the communication so when aiden said aim said he's in and you said you're in but the boys couldn't see it karen's uh kieran's chatting with us saying and this is great laffy smiling face and so he's uh enjoying this uh why is he joining there but not here i don't know anyway i don't understand that because he'll dominate he's doing is he's doing his uh dad thing you know that's good yeah whenever i talk to him he always like he's like yeah man presuppositional blah blah blah snorts then he turns he's like oh buddy do you want some kind of thing that i can give you hold on give me one second and then he turns back and he's just like yeah dude [Music] you've gotten so soft and weak that's good that's very good but he'll he'll join us next time like we'll do this uh we'll do this again for sure but he'll join us next time but yeah it's true he will he will dominate you like that's his that's his duty as the the older brother is to dominate the younger brother i know it's funny i'm thinking of um kieran's journey and just remembering the first few videos oh my god oh my god he was and he was trying to settle straight david oh my god david i'm sad the bible says this and but it's amazing to see the journey man nichola were you protestant as well or were you because after i had my ear i listened to you by the way your first one but i can't remember i just remember you oh what were you you were you were um and all i remember is where i was driving i was in reading pennsylvania and i remember you talking about peter bowing down or telling somebody else not to bow down to him and you're confusing your battle with that piece of scripture but that's all i remember from that interview because it was a couple years like two years ago that i listened to it so i'll stop interrupting you answer i'm i'm i'm i was born catholic and i was a catholic my whole life but nobody practicing it in the house we just had all the images in the house and we went for easter and christmas that was it so knew nothing about it then i had my conversion or my whatever it's called uh my um miracle from god or whatever that was and then from that day i just said i'm gonna follow god as best as i can four years ago and i started reading the bible for myself and um and started watching um youtube videos and and then uh what came with a lot of protestants was the catholic bashing and i felt for those right away and then should i stop being a catholic stop being a catholic was full-blown protestant for about eight months and god pulled me right back into the catholic church after that and even the way that happened was a miracle in itself man because i wasn't or were you were you like a liturgical christian before you were yeah i would say non-denominational and if you okay made me give a name i would say baptist fine but it was more non-denominational probably yeah okay believing because a lot of people just like use that to as the weight as the um way to describe where yeah you know even i'm not a protestant i'm a christian right right um out of the protestantism yeah a miracle but anyways um but besides the miracle um catholic answers had a lot to do with it and um but um i would say yeah mostly catholic answers had a lot to do with it and then my first video was when i finally said wow i'm catholic and and that was right after i found david's channel and got my first interview i was a fresh catholic all over again on that first interview what an honor you reached out to me or what how did i find you um i found you i watched one of your videos and commented and then you commented back and just said you wanna or you asked me i think um i ask everyone yeah don't feel don't feel too flattered ask absolutely everyone i know multiple times multiple times until they say yes or it's until they say stop asking me she chased me she chased me oh yeah and then finally i said yes guaranteed not with the hair down though it had to be tied up because with the hair down she would have ran again i think david should always tear down and i think you know i could do yeah i want the beard i wish i could have the beard maybe i'll like you oh is it your job that you can't no well my wife doesn't like it and plus i don't have a lot of facial hair wait she's orthodox she should love uh she should love a big old juicy beard man but you know i want to i want to just mention something about kieran again it's all about karen right it's all about it's always a bad case let's use a code word it's all about jennifer he's going to be like way to go kieran i'm tired of dreaming about him every night to go there it is all about him so so anyway i'm listening to the archives and going back to the old interviews i'm editing one of uh yours right now aidan and uh i'm sure it's me are you sure it's not oh wait that was actually curious there's a lot of talk sorry there's there's a substantial amount of talk about kieran in that one but there's also one i'm doing editing also one from matthew murdock and it's all about kieran so it's interesting you know the way he uh insinuates himself into our minds and uh what is it like what is it about him like he's just he's good at taking he's really special karen's really brilliant he's funny um he's you know uh kieran oh yeah definitely the mustache yeah my my wife loves anybody who's remotely addicted to anything she thinks that people that she thinks addicts just have an enigmatic personality so like kieran is just hands down you know like when he guns for something he's just like right there i remember in like third or fourth grade he wrote a poem about um thunder or lightning or a combination of the two and it got published in this like book that the teacher like submitted it to and my mom read it aloud and i was like oh wow that was uh that was really brilliant but that was the first time i had any inkling that karen was smart and i was just like he had to copy that that's not him but it took a long time for aiden to admit damn my younger brother smart that that took a long time for those words to come out probably yeah for being the older brother just to give something to the little brother because i know how my older brother is with me and oh yeah yeah well nichola you know i was i was the fat kid right i was like the i was i was always the like kieran's overweight older brother i looked like a woman for many years everybody called me rosie really yeah i lost a lot of weight and uh david you're laughing but it's so true man it's so true everybody's like this is like oh you look like a lesbian i'm like fair enough were you insulted when trump uh threw some shade your way how did you throw shade in my way or just making fun of rosie o'donnell all the time oh yeah well you took that personally i do feel a kinship with her and so i would have i wouldn't have liked that had i heard that so how about you guys know pat is it a boy is it a girl oh yeah saturday night live yeah i was i was called that i was called that for a few years from i would say from 14 to 15 i looked like pat wow you're married right yeah i bet your wife is smoking hot too because that's what happens to all the dudes that that get made fun of they always find the hottest woman that will say yes and they they beeline it for them and that's [Laughter] how long you've been married almost seven years almost seven years how about you yeah i'm going on ten going on ten years this september how old are you if you don't mind me asking because i can't i can't read you're 40 40. oh wow nice man nice i would have just said how about you 32 30. okay okay i'm 52. so we got the 30s 40s and 50s covered here wow mark by the way so astounded at your age david who is mark oh your uncle mark yeah uncle mark yeah yeah yeah he told me he thought i looked young yeah he couldn't believe he's like no way it's like yeah i know david has uh david's going to live forever i hope so well i don't want to live forever but i mean uh i'm blessed with some good genes like i think uh you know i talked to my dad today and he's in his mid 80s and he's out gardening and uh you know wow so good i got some good genes like saint anthony the great yeah dude lived until he was like 108. yeah i just want to live long enough to um my goal is to either die a martyr and go straight to heaven or to that's unlikely to happen or to be a confessor you know what a confessor is isn't it similar to martyrdom where you die for professing the faith well i think one of the criteria is that you don't commit a venial sin or obviously not immortal sin for 10 full years before your death so you have 10 years how would that even occur i mean i mean i'm gonna try to make it happen oh i don't mean for you i just mean i just think in terms of myself i'm just like i literally like i go to confession i sit down and i'm just like let's sin again baby just not too bad before i receive that's i know i know i know kick down the door and i'm just like sup [__] let's go hey i want to share a blasphemous fantasy i had during mass this past sunday just sounds horrible just because it's it's strange like i've never had anything like this before um you and i aiden talk talked back in 2019 in your second uh interview part two which i'm editing now and we'll publish soon we talked about having sort of sexual stuff fantasies come during math well i talked about that anyway and um no i frequently yeah so much it doesn't even phase me anymore yeah but this was this was not to do with sex this was to do with food this first time this happened to me like i often think about food while i'm at mass like hey what's my next meal going to be what am i going to eat oh it's going to be delicious like whatever you know i'm often thinking about food during last i try not to but that just comes to my mind and um because i'm hungry usually during mass but and i'm just always hungry all the time even if i just had a meal i'm always thinking about when's my next meal but anyway the point is i was looking at a beautiful life-size crucifix is that matthew murdock no it's my uncle he's at a chicago concert he's sending me videos i know you won't like this but he's like so i'm looking at this life-size crucifix of a white you know statue of jesus on the cross at church and i'm fantasizing about the chocolate cake that my wife asked me to pick up on my way home from church i'm thinking about what kind of chocolate cakes are going to be how delicious is going to taste and all this sort of thing and um and then i just i just had this this this image the reason i'm sharing this with you is because it's partly sick and twisted and it's partly edifying the sick and twisted part is that i pictured the one of the soldiers at the crucifixion holding up on a stick a piece of chocolate cake for jesus to eat right and he's like here have some chocolate cake it's just like a totally absurd monty python moment yep um but at the same time you know it really did it really did humble me it put into perspective this perverted lust i have for food like what the hell am i lusting after a piece of chocolate cake for when i'm you know about to receive the body blood soul in the vineyard of jesus christ and this this idea this mockery of christ by offering them a piece have some cake jesus here you go you know like the when they gave him the vinegar or whatever it was that wine sour wine whatever it was it's just i don't know i've never understood if that was a mockery if they're trying to be nice to him or they're trying to provoke him and trying to get him to talk about elijah or what they were trying to do with that wine there like it seemed like hey he's going to say something hey give him some wine like is it a mockery or were they compassionate i don't know i don't understand that bible scene when they offer him the wine on the hyssop branch or whatever it is but um with the chocolate cake thing it was definitely like uh derision and scorn and mockery and uh you know but it did humble me and it did it did uh condemn me like i felt like uh condemned for this uh this trivial lust i have for something as silly as uh dessert you know well there's like what there's potential sin and then there's actualized sin and we don't like deal with certain things until they pop up so like maybe that was just an opportunity for you to heal in that like one little weird way you know what i mean like you wouldn't have had to deal with like your lustfulness towards like cake or dessert foods you know what i mean and then it like put it in a very explicit way so like um so spotlight spotlight yeah it's like shining a light on it so that way you could deal with that directly because it's just like that's how i've been kind of thinking about sin now anyway i'm like like if something really disturbing comes up because sometimes if i'm like not paying attention that's when it disturbs me but then after a while i'm like oh that's actually that's fine but then i'm like oh this potential for this would have this would have existed had i not had this experience anyway even if i failed to the experience you know what i mean like it's like oh yeah that that potential always existed so you just had the opportunity in that moment to deal with it and then you flubbed it um but like right now right now i'm experiencing something kind of similar to the chocolate cake david right now like i'm praying not right now but like in my generalized prayers where i'm praising jesus and the word sexy keeps coming up where i'm like my sweet jesus or i'm not like my sexy jesus and i'm like no that's that's not it's absurd like i'm sorry jesus that's not what i mean but there's obviously this this satisfaction in the lord that that covers every desire and so it's like well it's not totally wrong it's just um it's just you know not it's just not respectful and it's not like quite hitting it's a bit misguided a bit misguided yeah right right just needs to be tweaked a bit yeah exactly omitted completely we talked about this at length in that your 2019 interview by the way we talked about this yeah i know it just keeps coming but now i'm just like man all right well you know he knew how awful i was before so i was thinking about the course yeah go ahead nicole did that um scene pop out of totally nowhere no no like the oh i'm saying the the guard holding the stick with the cake on it that hold the guard holding the stick did that like just pop out in your head with the cake already or did you think of the guard and then jesus and then the cake on the stick was it like no it was like no the sequence the sequence of events was i'm looking at the crucifix uh admiring it the mass is ongoing i'm half-heartedly listening to the mass and i'm looking at the crucifix and then the idea comes into my head oh yeah i gotta buy that chocolate cake for anna while i'm looking at the crucifix half-heartedly participating in the mass and then right away the whole scene played out in front of my eyes this mockery of christ where it's being offered into his mouth i didn't see the soldier i didn't even see the stick i just saw the the cake on his mouth okay and then i just thought oh my god this is like blasphemous and then i just thought it's funny and then i thought um what is the significance of this what is the meaning of this like what what uh it puts things into perspective in terms of uh you know fasting respect respecting your body and your body's a temple and what is food and is it okay to have some sweets from time to time and what is moderation and all those sorts of questions like you just start thinking about all that sort of thing right yep yeah that glenn is powerful man and i deal with it i take it out on my cigarettes mostly i'll tell you that i'd be scared if i quit i i think i would gain all kinds of weight you'd end up looking like uh rosie o'donnell yeah i was just trying to email you a photograph of her so that you would see but i couldn't do it it won't let me upload it for my phone nicola i also enjoy and this is not good because i'm a nurse and i'm supposed to discourage people from smoking cigarettes but during your interview you're smoking and i'm just like enjoy yourself buddy like i'm like good times vicariously my wife is a nurse she's a registered nurse as well and she works and ate south neurology the neurology floor so ugh neurons got some heavy yep she got some heavy stuff yeah what's the first detroit michigan yeah oh no way okay okay cool yeah we got a lot of michigan nights um down here in pensacola you should uh travel down south and uh come on you're isn't that i think that's where kent hovind lives is that true did you go visit dinosaur adventureland yet or what i do not know what that is you know you don't know ken hovind wow okay david interviewed him is he like a crete like a like a young earth creationist he's the he's probably one of the most famous the most famous one you gotta watch his videos i mean the guy is he's quite a personality he's got a lot of personality and uh you know he's quite sharp and he's got a edge like a lot of edge and he doesn't suffer fools you know he he was my favorite the whole eight months i was protesting he was they had my favorite i would say i still i still like him i mean he he was a little bit aggressive with me against my catholicism you know mocking my belief in purgatory and these sorts of things but i did a response video to him too which i think is uh one of my favorite things um the vitriol against purgation or purgatory like really no because it lends credence to the works it lends credence to the whole issue of faith in works and i was thinking about faith and works because uh one of my daily prayers is uh to the saint saint michael the archangel it's like a sort of uh cha they call it a chocolate to st michael or something like that but um you do the crown the the the with the three hail marys and the like the nine choirs like i do the nine choirs thing yeah the nine quarters there's some brutal prayer man that's all that's a powerful prayer i don't do it properly i do a um sort of like an abridged version of it like i don't do the hail mary's or the our father our fathers or the the uh the glory bees or all these sorts of things i just do the parts that i'm not praying already 20 times a day right like i mean uh i just wanted to get the skeleton of it so that i can like if i end up in a prison cell or something like that i can reconstruct it because i i wanted to memorize the parts that i haven't already got memorized that i say 20 times a day anyway so i just got the skeleton and i've just been in the habit of saying that and uh but the one of the uh choirs of angels um well it's the archangels it says uh by the intercession of saint michael in the celestial choir of archangels let me lord give me perseverance in faith and in all good works in order that i may attain the glory of heaven yeah so give me faith and works so that i can go to heaven what does that mean and as the church prays so she believes as the church prays so she believes so if i'm praying that i want the archangels to give me faith and works so that i can go to heaven what does that mean it means i can't go to heaven without faith and works right like i mean i mean this is not a shocking revelation we know the church teaches that we need faith in works but every day i'm praying this and i'm thinking wow that this is like it's uh it's so taken for granted by the church that it's even found its way into our our prayers right do you think there's any weight to that yeah it just struck me like it just struck me like yeah we it's like it's like an endorsement the stamp of approval given by just this random prayer that i started praying maybe six years ago i think the problem is is that it's not usually parsed out well enough you know like i think trent horn does a really good job talking about faith and works and i always really liked his apologetics that like kind of spoke of those things um um and as far as like you know purgatory is concerned and like working or or or whatever you want to say to get out of it like people always like catholics tend to uh classify purgatory as a place and not as a process and it's like biblically it's so sound that like well you have to be clean to enter heaven you can die in an unclean um state um god it can do that in the blink of an eye but what is the blink of an eye to god to man and what does that process feel like um obviously divine justice has to exist so you can't you can't continue to be um awful to other human beings and not um you know not somehow give back for that because you know like god is all good he's also all just um so really it's just like let's put two and two together here the catholic teaching on purgatory isn't is actually very um it's very vague very open um we have to use reason we have to use reason yeah to me i was gonna say with faith in works to me it's like common sense it's like go ahead and try that with your wife just believe that you love her and that's it just believe it just believe it and everything will be fine and and you know what's funny what's crazy is when i after um after becoming catholic again and then understanding purgatory to me that tied so many loose ends within christianity like purgatory made everything make sense you know that like even how can someone have a deathbed confession how can someone all kinds of loose ends are really tied up that purgatory is the answer to many of these um these unknown questions on on how it makes sense you know that so for me it was deep to understand purgatory and how it all makes sense tied a lot it tied a lot of loose ends up for me yeah it's nichola i've been really interested in prayer lately i mean i've always i've been interested in prayer from the beginning of my conversion but i want to know what do you do for your daily prayer rule or life it's funny as i see you guys saying you guys do the rosary you guys do the everything they are all amazing stuff but i i cringe when i have when i when i try to do set prayers that's when my mind starts wandering that's when that so me it's been for a while now it's been the most sincere and how do you want to call it um spontaneous and sincere as possible um that's most of my prayers and i'll probably do five percent of set prayers and it's 95 percent just just including him in my daily life daily thoughts daily the uh you know when i get a moment and and only sometimes when i'll get into deep prayer is um i have this gregorian chant that i'll play sometimes and let that play and i'll just i'll just gets into everything man karen gets it i know kieran finds his way into everything i told you there was one i found i fell in love with the moment i heard it and then ever since then i'll use that sometimes send me the link but i try the rosary and i've just started doing the rosary um yeah it's tough but i've been doing the the um the divine mercy chaplain actually and with my family so with my wife and my four-year-old and almost two-year-old and we've been trying that and that's been yeah that's been awesome mega grace mega graces wow because i feel like you might you might be a real lover of the practice of the jesus prayer is it the short one the um um lord jesus have mercy on me um yeah yep um it's funny because i don't how does it go again i don't know exactly what different versions of mercedes good enough uh lord jesus christ son of god have mercy on me a sinner sinner yeah yep yeah no it's funny that one when i remember it i'll say it but i forget to say that one a lot i just more like um in different ways again i'll it's i guess my way is most sincere as possible is all i try that's it sometimes i will not even say the word i won't sometimes i'm saying plenty of times i say i'm sorry and but sometimes i won't even say i'm sorry i just i know he knows my heart and i just look down and i you know and and i leave it at that that's what i mean yeah so so that's been mine and i'm sure i'm gonna come to a point where i'm gonna need more set prayers and then get to them i'm sure and i know that that's coming but it's just been as sincere and as spontaneous as possible that's it nice that's awesome dude um that's what catholics need catholics need that and i don't lose i don't lose too many by his grace i don't lose too much focus during mass it's strange i used to before you know yeah but i don't i don't i can focus and hear what you know i mean pay attention what the priest is saying and be all in and once the eucharist is coming start trying to bring all my sins to you know all my sins to it and just um accept it as deep as possible so i don't know it's a grace from him though because in other words and other things there my mind can wander then and lose when i try to read actually when i sit down and try to read my mind will wonder it's weird it sounds like you kind of have a general practice of the presence of god kind of like what brother lawrence talks about which is just turning every activity into a prayer excuse me i i don't know brother lawrence the um i have read that book because it's short i read short books and books on demons because i was just telling you that i could start you know yeah short books and books on demons that's for sure everybody should start [Laughter] the short books i gotta start because i need to uh read more and get into not let my mind wander while i'm reading you know i've had two real moments with um the holy spirit i mean i've had a couple i'm sure i've had more than that but two that stand out in the last couple years with the with the holy spirit and um one of them i was standing in front of my bathroom mirror and i was like being overly heady about prayer and i said lord how do you want me to pray and i felt this guttural response in my chest and in the back of my neck and it just said from the heart that's all god wants us to just pray from the heart it's as simple as that so i'm going to tell you i'm going to tell you a story and a second one if i remember because but um so i did a novena asking for a dream i wanted a dream i said from god whatever he wants to give me right i said give me whatever you want to give me if um but i want something from you anything what should i do what can i do what support whatever it may be i did a nine-day novena and it didn't and the ninth day came and nothing happened right and i remember i was a little disappointed about that and i was like you know i kind of lost a little faith in the novena prayer right it's stealth and i was like okay whatever you know and this and that and then but and then about three weeks later and my dreams i barely remember them i i don't really have too many dreams and if i do they're goofy silly and i forget about them by the time i wake up but anyways about three weeks later or something like that i have this dream it's as real as can be right it's vivid it's real it's deep i walk into church i get on my knees as soon as i get on my knees everything disappears the chairs to everything is just me on my knees blackness and i look up a human heart the biggest human heart but it's huge it's a huge human heart i would say about 10 feet high above me and maybe six feet wide right six feet up like a huge human heart i see and i looked to the left and and fire there was fire um fire all around almost like but there was nothing there to be on fire but there was a fire as if something was catching on fire every every direction i looked all the way around was this fire and it was you burning in hell and then simultaneously with all that i literally felt like a combination of if i was on the world's fastest roller coaster if i jumped out of an airplane um that falling effect um all these crazy emotions and comfort and love and and um just all kinds of a mixed bag of what where it was like almost even revving up and getting more and more and more and more and that's what woke me up then so it was pretty crazy it was awesome but yeah it was awesome but yeah so but that's what he gave me and then i was like but if i ask what did that mean hurt on fire what else does it mean besides i see a heart the heart of love or the love of christ burning the heart of christ love and that big heart and that's been a big that's been a big thing too for me god keeps giving me that grace of love love love love and that could sound very corny i know and i know an atheist an atheist could even love someone and they say to be nice and love everybody but there's a real love and a fake love right so and it's just god keeps pushing that love and then and the more i try then the more i realize how hard it is to love everybody and love correctly and love like christ did you know it's a far it's a high mountain to climb but we just keep trying for that amazing anything but fall into the religiosity of it and fall into the motions of it and fault you know so pharisaical rigidity and yeah rigorous rigor yeah legalism checklist uh checklist check check check i did not yeah okay i cried cried my tears i had my dream about the hurt okay i'm in yeah i'm fascinated by the transverbation of the heart like the idea of the heart getting pierced you know and like like this like terrific angel comes down and stabs you in the heart and i'm like man lord i really want that and then this is like well you know maybe you should try to like love people naturally like and like like consistently yeah baby steps baby stuff yeah like why don't you like you know be better to your wife and it's like okay and then it's just like yeah but that's true though like you don't just like get the big stuff without the the small steps in between it wouldn't make sense that way so yeah yeah i love mother teresa too yeah i'm just inspired by her so much [Music] she's your countryman she's your fellow countrymen right yep albanian ladies it's not for that reason that why i'm attracted to her i'm attracted there by the love she gave and by the work she did man so and then that makes the extra connection she is albanian as well so her power her the power she has in her delivery of every word she speaks no wasted no wasted words i opened a book with her one day and i saw her face and it it just beamed with light i'm like ah she's holy there is just no denying it yeah i heard a speech she gave about abortion just the four or five days ago and i was like wow wow wow try to look up the speech whether she gave on abortion that meeting national prayer day in the white house or something like that yep yep i was like wow wow amazing she's amazing and then she and i love how she's in that michael they put her in the michael jackson video you know that song a man in the mirror no way do you know that something yeah yeah there's a there's a few shots of her no way i loved it i love the part they chose to even put in somebody has a kid a sick child and she could she just basically dove to grab this child and put her in his arms put him in her arms and i'm just like wow it's so deep i love it you know i was i was at a job on a job picking up some materials at the supply whatever warehouse and they have all kinds of stuff they stock for all kinds of different businesses and one of the things they're stalking is all this lit these linens like i don't know what they are but they're like like laundry's been done or something and there's all this fabric there like i don't know if it's bed sheets or what it is but i swear to god it looked like i shouldn't swear to god but it looked exactly like and it reminded me of the what the the sisters you know mother teresa's sisters like that order did she found that order or what but it's got just the white with the blue stripes with the blue stripes i saw it i don't know if she made it fame i don't know if she put it on the map or if she found it but i know she had her own thing she found it but i don't know if that came with it or not but i just i just felt a desire like i wanna have one of these clothes with this like this white and blue because it just it just brought me to mother teresa and i just love i just love her yep yep they were selling um one at my church uh a version of it like a scarf but in the white and blue i loved it i i i bought it and i just i got it blessed and i love that thing so yeah it's cool to have though but i know what you're saying about that and you know she she dealt with she dealt with the the poor right where she's famous for dealing with the poor and helping the poor but she made a funny comment about a funny assessment of who the poorest people are it's those in the west who are killing their babies they're the poorest people they're the poor you know she she sees through she sees as god sees she knows who's rich and who's poor that's right and it's the poverty the poverty to not even value your own child that's the ultimate poverty yeah can you imagine i got dark really quick yeah so found her headdress and it'll be really nice to have have something like that around don't kill your children well yeah that's why we love her though that's why we love her because she she will nail you on your hypocrisy she will nail you without like without you know without like cornering your personal indeed that is look how deep that is you're not the poor that has zero dollars in your pocket that's the poor right there yeah that are killing their babies yeah you know that's what poor being poor means and we have to see jesus in those people that's the hard part those though i was i was at the i was at the uh i was at the propane station getting some propane tanks filled up for my work and uh you know i just dressed like a street bomb and whatever and i got my bashed up pickup truck from work and whatever totally classless and uh this rich guy pulls up totally rich totally rich car he's dressed to the hilt he's got like his cravat his french cravat and his sunglasses and his hair is perfectly he's got the nice shoes and the watch and everything and he walks up with his little tiny canister i've got three huge hundred pound canisters he's got a little 30 pounder and uh the guy running the shop the propane shop says oh excuse me i i'm just gonna serve this gentleman first and then i'll do you okay even though i got there first and i made a joke i made a joke i know i know full well i'm not stupid i know the reason is because he has a little one it's faster and then he'll do my three big ones okay i know that but i made a joke and i just was acting like i'm all pissed off like yeah yeah sure serve him first because he's rich and i tried i tried to give attitude right right in front of the guy and i was hoping that he would have some humility he'd laugh along right but he he kept a completely straight face and he thought i was serious that i was seriously like oppressed under class that's like rebelling and i'm showing my true anger towards the hatred towards the rich people whatever i wasn't i was just making a joke can you laugh at yourself like can you laugh at the theater of this like we're all gonna die we're all going to end up before our maker and like can you laugh at the role you're playing because i can laugh at the role i'm playing you know but he couldn't and the guy working there couldn't either he's like no no no no he worked very hard for his money the rich people work very hard for the money and i was thinking i had another joke spontaneously come into my head yeah it's hard work managing all those slaves isn't it but i didn't say that joke i didn't say that joke because the first one didn't fly that one certainly wouldn't i would say they probably just didn't get you were joking but but you're right they in the within themselves now they got to realize to be able to laugh at themselves yeah come on they just probably had no idea you were joking that's all they thought you were serious probably yeah there's something overly sterile about people with money like they're and i was um yeah i guys have probably seen women that are so good-looking that it's painful to look at them it's just like oh my goodness it's like they're ripping your heart out right now there's like a type of man and woman that exists that exists that's i see that david collins yeah so like there's uh this type of rich person that exists they're just so well put together they're so clean they're so well clothed it looks like they don't sweat it looks like they don't wipe their butt it just looks like they're just this immaculate like floating species that just goes along and just doesn't doesn't you know pour out any fluid from any orifice and um unlike nicola with his tears with his tears i went to your tears not anything else go ahead that's right no but i mean there's something about that person where you just like and you feel like it's kind of it's like the opposite you know when saint francis meets the leper and he feels repulsed by him like you see that with those people and i think about my interactions with them because i know i get those people as patients and i have to put my hands on them i have to touch them i have to take care of that to interact with them and i almost feel like my dirtiness is like corrupting their their like their well put together

CVS Live Guest - 2022-05-12 - Brenda vs. Joe

so we are live i'm here with joe and brenda take it away guys okay uh my name is joe um i'm happy to have a conversation with uh brenda i think uh i'm a theist and she's an atheist so yeah maybe we can both talk about our points of view and uh you know just discuss them i don't think probably neither of us is going to change our minds but uh do we have the set this is the topic of abortion a set topic uh i wasn't gonna i was just gonna talk about if god exists oh okay i thought that was i was misunderstood i i misunderstood oh your daughter okay huh okay um yeah i'm an atheist i i don't think there's any good reasons to believe that in the existence of of god okay all right uh so then let me ask you what what would a good reason to believe in god what what would be a good reason i think that if you could consistently perform some kind of miraculous feat that would give me that would give evidence that would increase my increase the probability that a god exists well if you can consistently do a miraculous feat then it wouldn't really be miraculous would it because you would just sure would sure if you did it all the time it would be normal right no if you could consistently break the laws of of physics for example then that would indicate that there is perhaps a supernatural force or being which could intervene in the physical universe and alter things was just thinking if it happens all the time that would seem to be a normal thing if it consistently happened i understand a miracle to be like a once you know it happens once right or i understand a miracle to be a violation of the laws of uh the universe okay all right so so presumably a god who exists independent of the universe created the universe would have the ability to intervene and that intervention would be what i would call a miracle and he could do it consistently it wouldn't be a mechanic like the loss of the universe it would simply be at his whim right or or something like that but that would indicate to me that there's a higher power okay so so like if what about like somebody rising from the dead would that be a miracle yeah that would change my that would change my outlook i would then have to reevaluate everything i know um either the the world doesn't work the way i thought it died does or there's a being that can step in and intervene in the mechanics of the world okay that's good that's good man i remember i listened to an episode of uh talk even and jay mike said you know j mike is one yes one of the hosts he said well even if jesus rose from the dead it could it's more likely that it's aliens so it's like i would say that yeah the probability would be but if you or somebody else could consistently say pray to god and and have that happen that would indicate that it's not aliens it might be that god it seems to me okay okay that's uh that's reasonable so uh i'll just tell you i i wasn't always a believer i didn't believe a lot of my life so but some things happened in my life and uh i also started studying the arguments and i kind of changed my mind on everything so what was it that happened in your life was it a young catholic girl that happened in your life oh no it was just some personal experiences oh okay but that's the uh dug at pine creek thesis is that young catholic girls have converted more non-believers than any argument ever has well yeah it's not so much that i'm religious it's just i just came to a belief that uh that god actually exists so it's not so much i'm not part of any real religion so it's not that i'm so you you're not a christian ah i mean you can label me that but i i'm a believer but uh i'm not your theist are you a deist does your deity intervene in the universe i believe uh i believe christianity is true how's that so sounds like you're a christian then go through some is that if we go through some of the arguments or okay or if you want to ask me any questions or whatever well i'm just kind of i am kind of curious i i believe that there are no good reasons to believe in the deity so i call myself an atheist if you want to push maybe an atheist agnostic but i have a positive belief that there's no good reason to believe in a deity and so far i understand that you are a nominal christian is that how you would put it yeah i guess you could put it that way why christianity rather than islam or judaism uh judaism is really cool you know you get to go to the the central bank and make a withdrawal when you convert to judaism uh-uh i didn't i was actually i'm bored i'm born i can hear dave i can hear david because he knows my sense of humor i'm born jewish actually so well i come from a jewish family get all that gold man okay all right well i'm sorry i was being flippant but um why not islam or hinduism uh with hinduism you've got like about several thousand gods to choose from oh because i don't believe that's true so i believe that i believe i believe in the evidence for the resurrection so oh that isn't that what it all comes down to so well i don't know well first you have to believe god exists if god doesn't exist then then christianity is obviously not true correct right if there's if the judeo-christian god doesn't exist then there's no good reason to believe in any of the three major um abrahamic religions right yeah so well for me i like a lot of the philosophical arguments those are those are things that convinced me so really yeah the first the first question i always ask myself is i think it's leibniz questioning why does something exist rather than nothing do you think there's an answer to that um i'm not sure there is a good answer to that i i think that something does exist if nothing existed then i'm not sure how there could be anything right right i mean that's i guess that would mean something has always existed wouldn't you agree some well yeah either something or some person i suppose or some being that's usually how it's put usually how it's put in with leibniz's cosmological argument is that it's either a being or some principle or some aspect of the universe that has always um existed but um yeah i can just i can just postulate that there's always been uh something even with the big bang i could say that there just has been a prior prior conditions of some kind okay so uh so now wouldn't that do you believe like an infinite regress is possible it might be i'm not sure i see a logical problem to an infinite regress um but there are people they're called infinitive infinitivists who do believe that infinite regresses are not necessarily um bad i think i would tend to um reject uh reject an infinite regress type of argument okay but that doesn't mean that doesn't mean i i think that the universe can have an infinite past oh that's interesting i don't see any contradiction and lots of people have written about it that there doesn't seem to be any logical contradiction between their having being an infinite past or an infinite future i mean after all if you can have an infinite future you can have an infinite past okay well i think there's pro i think there's quite a bit a bit of problems with that so it's all right if i so yeah an infinite pass okay there's a lot of problems with an infinite past but the infinite future you you know the difference between potential infinite and actual infinite sure okay so like a potential infinite you know we could go on into the future forever right yeah potentially but actually but the actual infinite will will never reach it right we'll never reach a point where we've reached an actual infinity right that would seem to be the case so so there's no such thing as an actual infinite i don't know i i i would tend to reject actual uh infinites existing in our universe yeah okay so so that then there's a problem with uh an incident i think the multiverse could be infinite and there are people who say that the universe itself could be of infinite size there are people who say that i'm talking about like infinite quantities like you can never have an infinite number of things well there's people who say that the universe could be infinite in size okay well there's no there's no number infinity so you can't have a like i couldn't have an infinite number of pens right it doesn't seem so no right so and the problem with an infinite past is so if there's a series of events that goes back infinitely you would actually never arrive at any you would never arrive at today and you would never arrive at any point in time because there would always be an infinite number of the number of events before any single event so there's a lot of problems with an infinite past which i think it's just illogical what's the contradiction well well the first contradiction is there's no such thing as actual infinite so if you can't have an actual infinite you can't have it couldn't be i don't know why there couldn't be there's no logical contradiction in an actual infinite i think i think that the multiverse could very well be an actual infinite okay there's no such thing as having an actually infinite number of patterns right now you agree to that there could be an actual infinite in the multiverse and there could be one pen in only in each universe and therefore you could have that as an actually infinite number of patents so you can't have an infinite number of pens it could be um i don't see how it would work in this universe although there's people that say it could be infinite but it doesn't seem likely to me but you could have an infinite number of pens spread out through an infinite number of universes so you can't have an infinite number of things sure there's no contradiction to reach an infinite number once you have to reach the number that precedes that number infinity is easily dealt with in modern mathematics today all the time but it is a concept but there are infinite sets and mathematicians deal with infinite sets all the time i know but we can't have an actually infinite number of anything can we i don't know why not i'm not seeing the contradiction there's set theory deals with infinite sets and there's no logical contradiction in an infinite set so i think you could have an infinite number of pens in an infinite number of universes i i think that would constitute you know the set of pens and it would be infinite okay i mean i think we'll just disagree i mean i don't think infinity is it's not a number it's not a quantity it's an unreachable quantity so you can have an infinite number of universes and you can't have an infinite number of pens because infinitely you're just rejecting that a priori i don't see the justification for that because mathematicians deal with infinite sets all the time it's set theory is it a number or not it's not a number then it is a concept it's a set right there's a potential you can potentially go on forever but you can't have an infinite number of things i don't know why not because there's no number that precedes it but you can have a set with an infinite number of members an incident meaning unlimited but there's no quantifiable number that that that can be here it's not a quantity i i suppose in the traditional sense it's not a it's not an integer an infant set is not an integer i don't think maybe it's a different type of thing it's a mathematical object and it's perfectly valid to talk about infinite sets and like i said you could have say in this universe there's only one pen but in the multiverse which i believe is possible if not even somewhat likely i'd give it greater than 50 at least there could be another infinite number of universes with one pen where did that predict that could exist okay if you say so but uh you said that it's you said it's more likely it's 50 percent likely that we have uh well that's i i'm no expert i'm not i'm no expert on this i just take what the people who um seem to know what they're talking about have to say at their face value and the and the physicists that i read about tell me that the multiverse is highly likely to be true so they believe that there are multiple universes in addition to ours right our our universe our cosmos i do they say cosmos for the multiverse i forget which our universe is just one among a multitude which i believe could be infinite and our universe could be infinite in size and that's just what the the theoreticians in physics tell me and i'm not an expert enough to dispute what they have to say so i just take take them at their word well i i guess i've heard different because i i remember watching a video with lawrence krauss and he was you know he i think he believes in the possibility of a multiverse and he was on a panel with a bunch of physicists and uh the other physicist said there's no evidence at all of a multiverse so that's right there's no evidence of a multiverse but they still think that it's a possibility it's my understanding okay that's fine yeah there's no evidence of a multiverse i don't know how you would you would get evidence for that i don't know how that would work but according to our best empirical theories about our universe my understanding is is that a multiverse is a distinct possibility okay that would need an explanation too wouldn't it if there's a multiverse uh yeah i suppose we would like to have one yes we believe in the principle of sufficient reason yeah i'm not sure i do know that everything needs an explanation yeah i think some things might not have an explanation oh that's interesting i think that i i think that so i think the principle sufficient reason is that everything has either an explanation and something else and an external cause or uh yeah it's a necessity of its own nature right so and you think there's something but there could be an underlying substance or principle to our universe that simply has always existed that would make it necessary right i don't know if it makes it necessary it could just have always existed i don't know what that would mean to me say it's necessary necessary means it can't it cannot not exist i'm not sure that having always existed is the same as cannot not exist i'm not sure those are the same yeah i think those are just okay you you think they're this i'm not sure about that i think you're right they're not the same oh okay i think necessary would be like maybe if it exists in all possible worlds like two plus two will always equal four in every single possible world possibly yeah i'm not an expert you know way more philosophy than me so i don't know a great deal there's lots of people who know a lot more than i do yeah all right uh are there any other are there any arguments that you like to talk about with uh i don't know that you find yeah it seems to me that i don't know how a mind can exist without a body wouldn't that be would that be an argument from ignorance um it would be an empirical argument and it would be simply an inductive inference that it doesn't seems to me that minds are always the consequence of brains brain activity right and it and i have a hard time understanding how a mind could exist without an uh without a brain to give rise to mental activity there's a lot of people who are substance duelists right like i don't know if you've heard david david chalmers he's like an expert brain uh scientist i know i think he i don't know much about him i'm really sorry i i doubt he's a substance duelist isn't he a property duelist uh i don't you might be right but maybe the property i'm not sure i think substance dualism is really hard to justify i really don't see how you can justify their a substance due list what do you think uh this is something i thought about this i watched josh rasmussen and he said he's talking about what thoughts were right guitar yeah what are they that's the activity of neurons in your brain it's the firing of neurons what are they made of neurons your thoughts are made of neurons the thoughts are what you have when your neurons are firing like yeah we can be pretty sure of this because when your neurons don't fire people tend to be dead it seems to me thoughts are immaterial entities how do you how how did you figure that because my my thoughts can't be part of my brain why not because they're not physical they're not physical things so you're just begging the question well they're not well if you think if i think the thought uh how much does a dog weigh and i think that thought and i think well where is that thought what what does that thought look like it would look like your neurons firing then aren't you begging the question how do you know that no it just it just seems to me that that's what it would be because when we turn off those neurons you don't have thoughts anymore so you think your thoughts are made of matter well they're the consequence of of your neurons activity right so when you're when your neurons are not active right then you don't have thoughts but what do you think they're made of they're not made out of anything they're they're the consequence of of brain activity okay so they're not making any so they must be immaterial if they're not made of any no i don't think so so this computer right now is very active right and when i turn it off it will no longer be active but that doesn't mean that the software is immaterial it's not immaterial the software actually exists on the hard drive it's simply being the consequence of what i can see right here in front of me and the operation of the computer all of that is i woke up i woke up alexa computer stop [Music] i'm gonna have to think of another word because because that's my wake word for alexa um so stop laughing david i changed the wake word to the c word now i can't use it um no computer [Music] there it goes computer stop god damn um so so um i don't the software is not immaterial right it simply and these events that are happening on my screen are not immaterial they they really exist and they're the consequence of my pc and its operation and so my thinking my experiences um and all my beliefs and sensations are the consequence of my brain when it is um working properly or even improperly then i get bad experiences okay you know i think we can just disagree i think i think thoughts are immaterial things but uh yeah how come because i just think they're not i think it's really almost self-evident that they're they're they're immaterial entities that they exist they're not doesn't seem self-evident to me at all it seems to me it seems to be pretty evident right if i drink alcohol um it changes my thoughts because it's changed my brain right if i take lsd it i've never done that um could i be terrified of doing that if i take a psychoactive drug it changes my my experiences because it changes how my brain works how does how does um alcohol affect an immaterial substance i can't answer every question i just think uh i think the mind is i think your thoughts are immaterial entities that's just my opinion but uh dude we go to something else if you want well no i i kind of want to pursue this because this was elizabeth of bohemia's objection to descartes which was she didn't see how material objects could affect immaterial world or the immaterial could affect the material right unless you're saying there's some sort of causal connection between the material and the immaterial do you think that there is uh you know i'm not like a brain expert or anything why can't why can't immaterial things affect the material world because they're causally um isolated from each other because otherwise if if and because we think that the uh the physical world is uh causally closed there's no outside it would violate a number of conservation laws right so so where in the brain does the soul connect to the brain to to the body these are questions i can't answer you know i'm not i don't have every answer to everything and then it seems to me that it's not terribly up um self-evident if you can't if you just hypothesizing something for what you can't have any kind of explanation and or any kind of mechanism i can offer a mechanism which is simply that my thoughts arise due to the activity of neurons in my brain i can point to them i can point to the region that's responsible for vision i can point to the region where there's higher order thinking and all kinds of things but you can't give any explanation well you're the one who said that thoughts are not made of anything so that would be the definition of thoughts are they're not a substance they're just the activity of the of the brain well it's got to be made of something if it exists why so you think if if it exists it's got it has to exist either material or immaterial right those are the only two options sure well he says these could be different levels of description right so one way of talking about for instance the the water in my teapot is that it's hot it has a temperature but there's no such substance as temperature temperature is just a way of talking about the collective activity of all the molecules in the water which is that they have a kinetic energy that results in the teapot water boiling but there's no substance called temperature but it's just it's just a way of talking about about the water okay so the thoughts they're not made of anything then they're not material they're just they exist right do they basically there's a supervenience there's a supervenience there's a way of talking about things how how does the neurons create the thoughts i don't think we know that i don't think you know that but they the neurons um have connections with each other and it's their activity that gives rise to thoughts thoughts and memories memories are stored are memories stored in the soul i have no idea well we're pretty sure that they're stored in the brain and i believe it's many of the memories maybe not all are stored in the neuron as chains of of molecules inside of the neuron i could be wrong about that i'm not up on everything so but it's memories are are are physical i can go into your brain and erase your memories if i know where a specific memory is i can erase it by scrambling that region of the brain can you put like a memory and like can you hold a memory land can you put it in a box probably at some future time we might have the technology to do that okay i think we just disagree it's fine well you don't have any reason you haven't given any reasons for any of the things that you're talking about it's just you just believe these things i have reasons and evidence which is that substances affect the brain which affects my thoughts you have no explanation for why that would happen you have no explanation for memories it doesn't seem possible that the soul even has memories maybe it doesn't you have no explanation for any of these things i never mentioned this all you did you kept mentioning it against the soul material or immaterial i never talked about this the salt what do you think what would it be if it exists i don't think a soul exists all right well i didn't say anything about this all i just talked about your thoughts yeah what does the soul think look did all i talked about was thoughts and i said they were they were immaterial yeah i don't think they're immaterial i think they're material and i said we disagree and that's yeah yeah but what do you think do you think that our souls can think i do i probably yeah i do i do i think i think your mind is your soul oh okay well how does that work i don't know how does the multiverse work um it come it came into being as a result of inflation in the early part of the universe how'd that happen i'm not sure i don't know okay so you're defending something you don't know i don't know everything either you know i i i don't understand where you're going with this so you seem to want to have this position but you don't seem to want to have to defend it all right i'll just say you're right how's that is that better because we'll just go around and run in circles do you want to keep going in circles we would just go on for an hour talking the same stuff you don't want to do that all right if you want to change if you figure up some up something else in mind no don't you think that's a better idea than just keep going around and go ahead sure what are you what are your thoughts on uh morality do you think like i think uh you know some atheists think it's objective subjective like i think it's easier to put it like are there just moral facts or moral opinions so um do you know that what what is uh on the objective morals to you dude how do you understand that uh i would say i guess a moral fact would be something that's true regardless of whether any person believes it or not right so objective means that it's independent of personal opinion yeah right and so where do your morals come from no i'm just i'm just asking are there more are there such things as moral facts i'm not sure that there are but what do you think uh yeah i think uh there are more facts i would go towards that because i think i think if there are no more facts then it just becomes everything just becomes merely subjective to each individual and then that means you can't really say anyone is done right or wrong because everybody can just make up their own moral system yeah i'm not convinced that if there are no moral facts everything is subjective i don't believe that so then you think it's objective no i didn't say that well it's got to be either objective or not objective which would be subjective i'm not sure about that isn't that a dichoto a strict dichotomy objective or not objective well i don't think there are any objective morals but i don't think that if there are no objective morals then everything is just is just um piggledy pealty why not i because i think that there can be there can be obligations and um possibly you could use the language of obligations and duties you could take the utilitarian view that what's what's moral is what's in the what's best for everybody you could take a number of views and those don't have to rely on any objective moral facts they don't have to where do more obligations come from um probably for me from society and from my my my culture and my parents the people around me so like if i came from like nazi germany then my obligation would be to do what they did right would it by your theory i think is that that's not my theory we said it comes from our community our families where we come from yeah well if i came from nazi germany shouldn't i do what they do and like kill the jews i'm not convinced that that was in line with the culture of germany for one thing i think that they may very well been out of a line with the culture of germany okay what about like like i used to live in africa and uh i lived in uganda for a little while for two years that it's illegal to be gay and they they maybe they kill gays that's part of the culture is that yeah is that wrong objectively yeah i think it's wrong or it's opinion i don't think it's objectively wrong okay so they have their rights but i cannot like things and i can think that i can think that that is um not a good law for people to have right it doesn't follow that because that if i have if i don't agree on moral facts that therefore i have no say in anything yeah of course you can have your opinion but it's just your opinion versus their opinion nobody's right nobody's wrong well you're just kind of totalizing right and wrong i think i think that right and wrong could be different than simply that i think um i think it's it's a good thing right to help people to not cause harm to other people and what if i and so that would be in line with my moral belief that you shouldn't not necessarily harm people so laws against homosexuality would unnecessarily harm homosexuals yeah well that's just your belief why would they yeah well because well because i i think it's it's just a better way to do things right so it would be my job to convince the legislatures of that area to change their laws like if i was back in the pre-civil war south and there's laws permitting slavery i would be against that i think i would be against it i hope i would be against it but then it would be my duty to convince people around me that they should change their laws and no longer practice slavery because i think but because i think it's immoral in moral meaning that it causes harm to people unnecessarily and they shouldn't do that so it's a fact that it's immoral no no it's it's it's my it's my my my belief it's my moral principles it's my my moral beliefs and somebody else who believes slavery's all right then that's theirs like in the bible like in the bible yeah right it'd be purely subjective no no no you're just making this dichotomy because everything has to be either all this or all nothing and i just don't i just don't accept that it has to be all or nothing like that it seems to me to be a very extreme view i think i i am able to say that some things are wrong based on my beliefs and desires about and i think that we should not hurt other people to the as much as we have you know unnecessarily cause harm to people and i think that therefore that gives me a um a duty to convince other people that they should they should don't do that you know when you're hurting gays or enslaving people you know don't do that and and i have to convince and i think that's what history shows is that people over time come to the conclusion slavery and it's a bad idea um being anti-gay that's a bad idea we should we should value other people right and not harm them unnecessarily that's those are bad ideas yeah yeah i think that's a moral truth that we should value other people i would say that's a moral fact not more not a moral opinion well you know the rapist or the murderer or the pedophile or whoever they're just gonna say well why should i listen to brenda why shouldn't i make up my own uh do what's in my self-interest well they don't actually believe that though do they they don't rapist don't rape do rapists think that they should be raped well do they rape no i'm saying do rapists think that they should be raped i don't know what they think i i would i would guess that most rapists would think that they ought not to be raised so what they're doing what they're doing is making an exception for themselves over other people it's like the thief it's like the thief who steals thieves don't think that you should steal from them but they think they can steal from you therefore they're making an exception for themselves correct right so they don't actually believe that that theft is good they only believe it in you know it's just it's just i get to do it and and you know right so they're making an exception for themselves which is illogical right they think whatever benefits them is right right so they're making an exception for themselves and who says they can't well if you have a moral law right that's not going to say it's not going to say um theft is theft is bad except for john doe it's gonna say theft is bad okay i think we just i think that there are moral facts and you think i don't know what you think but uh i think i told you what i think okay i don't know i believe in the principle of harm which is that we shouldn't harm other people all right well you think that's an opinion though not a fact i think it might be a little bit more than just an opinion i think i think it's a bit more than that what does that mean i don't know what that means it's more than an opinion it seems like it's either you have an opinion or you have a fact i don't think there's anywhere in between okay all right convince each other i don't think either way but uh i think we probably disagree on everything so huh what do you think about design what i'm guessing you don't think i know you don't think you got a whole list don't you i mean if we're going to talk i don't know what is design so i think that evolution is a fact right because it is our best theory that accounts for all the evidence that we've found right about animals about speed different species fossil animals and living species today evolution is the best explanation for how biology works without evolution biology doesn't make any sense so evolution is the best explanation that's a that's a claim how do you know that it's the best one we've come up with it conforms the theory the theory of evolution explains the facts that we find on the ground the the fossils that we dig up and the animals that are still alive when we um when we um understand them it's a unifying theory that explains the biology that we see on earth how did evolution start i don't know oh what about abiogenesis is there evidence for that yeah there's evidence for that there is i never thought about that what is it you haven't looked into it then why should i talk about it with you you don't know what you're talking about all right there's evidence for abiogenesis but we don't have anything definitive or near to the level of evolution uh evolution takes place you know afterwards so that's okay so evolution is the explanation for the origin of species by means of natural selection descent with modifications abiogenesis is the explanation for the origins of reproducing life on earth there are a number of theories we found that molecules for life like rna will spontaneously self-replicate in clay in in clay um on the surface of clay and stuff they just spontaneously assemble themselves hmm i rather there's a lot of problems with that experiment but what have you read the the other side too i haven't read that much on it but i don't think i would suggest that um this is something i do in both politics and sciences is that if there's something i don't know i google the pros and the cons so i would read um not just the people who are making claims from the creationist side i would read the the evolution side right and so there's a lot of good material out there that's not hard to find so i think you should do your due diligence and and look for the answers unless you're just looking to confirm prior beliefs i agree with you i think you should look at both sides right so berkeley uh berkeley university has an excellent um website on evolution which which is really good and explains a lot of the fundamental concepts so you could look into that and there are a lot of there are a lot of undergraduate level college texts that are available you could probably find free older pdfs of college-level texts and those are approachable by reasonable people and you could find out about them i would suggest i do the same thing with politics too when somebody says such and such uh well joe biden is responsible for inflation and then i i look around and i google it and i find the people that say he is and the people that say he's not and then i make a decision yeah i think you should look at both sides i'm 100 that's yeah that's what i do good right i applaud you right and the same is true for um policies surrounding uh mask wearing uh policies around vaccinations uh policies around tax policy gun control um any of those other what we should do in the ukraine there are different people giving their different opinions and if you look up and if you just put like debunked um after the search term you'll get sites that will say that they're debunking this or that and you can get the other opinion and then hopefully you make a choice based on on the best available evidence um you're not always going to do that i don't always do that but um it's a good way to approach things i agree with you i'm with you 100 i think you should examine both both views we'll see which is the most better explanation for everything and uh conclusions on everything right and in my understanding the best explanation of of the presence of life on earth or species of life on earth is evolution by natural selection which is that there it we have an environment in which only some animals will survive to the next generation right and only those who are capable of surviving will in fact survive and those traits get passed down to the survivors and so over time right you get new species that way for example the evolution of whales from a land um dwelling pecacetus there's hundreds of fossils and you can that have been uh discovered that show a clear progression from the land dwelling quadruped of pacquisitis to an ocean dwelling uh a whale or or other species for instance right and this explains how that happened you can you can practically watch right the nose the nostrils go from the front of the snout right to the middle of the head how many generations do you think it would take for a for a land dwelling animal to turn into a whale it's a result of populations over millions of years so it takes millions of years for these things to happen here's one question i have about evolution i i was always wondering how did male and female come to be for every mammal it seems to me like every wikipedia page on that there you know it seems to me it's more we're almost out but there's an advantage to having males and females because it mixes the genes better so did every animal split into two it seems like that what are you talking about how did every animal split into two yep male and female how did that come from one single thing what are you talking about oh yeah yeah yeah i i don't know what you're talking about what do you mean they split into two how did male and female come to be i don't know but you know that there are male and female bacteria right i don't know yeah you don't know a lot you're right neither do you actually i do i've been able to answer all of your questions i don't think you've answered any of them well if you're going to be rude to me i'm going to be rude back but you haven't answered any of my questions and i've i have answered all of them well i thought all your answers were wrong remember because you answer a question doesn't make your answer right does it david sorry man if somebody's gonna be rude to me i'm gonna be rude back i don't think i was rude i don't i don't think i was rude no problem it's fine i'm just going to summarize it which is i was able to answer every single one of his questions he has no idea what he's talking about on any of the subjects no idea how souls no idea how souls have memories how souls work or function you have no idea how how the universe came to be you have no idea how species come to be you have no idea how how life came to be you don't have any answers uh every and i asked answered every single question that you asked me and you gave no answers to anything that i asked you all right if you say so brenda you couldn't tell me what the multiverse was you couldn't tell me where the multiverse came from you couldn't tell me a good answer what thoughts were you couldn't tell me how evolutionary i told you what thoughts were yeah and you were wrong those aren't some doubts you haven't you didn't show i was wrong just said you just went nuh-uh no you said there you said they're not even made of anything i did too i said they're they're they're the the result of the active brain activity and i wouldn't say they weren't made how do i know that yeah because when you because when the brain activity stops the thoughts stop so are your brain you're a brain expert i guess let's agree to disagree and let's not get let's not get nasty let's not get nasty let's i think it's over buddy peace and peace and love well we're out of time anyway because google meet is going to kick me off in two minutes so uh yeah i don't think we accomplished anything uh productive there it's okay i i'm not overly upset or anything don't get worked up either of you i'm not overly worked out don't get overly worked up if i had to choose a winner i'd choose brenda i think brenda won thanks david no because come on you gotta you gotta bring you gotta bring more than that joe you can't just say that brenda's beliefs are stupid you need to bring principles you have to bring principles and so uh i mean it's nothing it's not i'm not putting you down joe i'm just saying you're ill-equipped to uh because brenda had explanations based on a materialistic worldview and you needed to go deeper into the metaphysics and get to those philosophical principles which are immutable eternal talk about causality talk about the difference between an infinite in actual infinity on a number line or in set theory and then uh composite physical objects which are always subject to cause and effect it's gonna the call's gonna end so we'll talk soon thanks for doing this all right peace out bye-bye have a good one bye

CVS Live Guest - 2022-05-29 - Aidan and Rebekah

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CVS Live Guest - 2020-01-11 - Canadian Catholic

so we are live this is my first-ever CBS live guest and I have today the honor of interviewing and chatting with Canadian Catholic welcome to the show Canadian Catholic yes thanks for having me David this pleasure to be here I'm sorry for the technical issues we had with the first tribe but this seems to be a lot better and just tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and acquaint the audience with your with your Catholicism and with your online presence yes I I am currently a Roman Catholic I was raised a non-denominational Christian and through a journey I D converted and became an atheist I was an atheist on and off for about one year and then through study through research through thinking I abandoned the position of atheism and started a jerking that eventually led me to theism and Christianity more specifically and from then on it was a journey it took some time but I found myself more involved and more interested in the Catholic faith and eventually I have been to doing can you maybe just tell the listeners a little bit about your childhood how you were raised I believe you were raised in some sort of Protestant young Earth Creationism can you talk a little bit about that place yes I was a non-denominational Christian and I was raised a young the cartoonist and I want to bake bread this any sort of colorful story you can tell about your faith at first memories you have of your faith and when you first as a thinking rational being we decided that the reason God and I want to worship this guy just talk a little bit about your first Inklings that God and religion are real and worthy of your adherence yes in the beginning it obviously came more naturally to me was something I was raised in and something I was something that was like kind of second nature to me if that makes sense now obviously right but over time you know I started more thinking about it and I thought went for it wasn't defensible you know I had the same doubts but my I really started thinking about it and wanted listen I just thought about it and not something that was pleased with was probably around 18 and that's the time when I started doing more deeper into the research understanding historical context listening events and stuff like that so the point would be around when I was 18 so that would be age just to give you and I spend a lot of time also debating and there discussed it particularly the separated atheism and the subreddit debate and atheist I eventually actually created my own separate at once and yeah I had these discussions so the discussions helped me grow the more antagonistic the discussion more development I experienced and would you say philosophy is a major part of your conversion away from God and then back to God I can you talk a little bit about the philosophical ideas that shaped your turn a little bit yes philosophy had a huge part I would say crucial and hitting cure philosophy right is the most important thing right and that's basically what happened to the philosophical argumentation the framework is important to understand basically everything related to the slide especially theology the vent that is really the most important part now of course there was a piece for science there is a place for history there's a place for biology for mathematics all of it but the primary for framework philosophy is the most important mmm some bit what when having these this yes yet the Catholic faith really when we're talking about Christianity I hope you means a more orthodox reversion to you right now in Christianity you're including fee Christians who are atheists but simply like the message of Jesus right then that's a different conversation yes I think I had my mute on there so that listeners couldn't hear the question is basically about what are the deal-breakers to like Christianity Catholicism so you can continue with your answer but there there are different the different deal-breakers for me and just sort of run through the gamut what would it take for you to leave Catholicism and Christianity when we're talking about Christianity as I said issue obviously depends what do you mean because if I'm there Christianity you simply need the most generic form or someone can let believe in God but simply like the message of Jesus then you could always be that if agenda meant something much more specific then that would have to be be the Orthodox for me to believe in one and historically invariably the Roman Catholic Church is II the church that developed from that Orthodox sect so one would have to show me that that's wrong for me to leave Roman Catholicism is the most authentic expression of that white believing sect of Christianity that developed how would you characterize the authority of non-catholics whether they're atheist Hindus Jews or Protestants how would you characterize their understanding of authority how do they speak with authority when they interpret the Bible or the Hindu religious texts or the atheistic secular scientific journals and all those sorts of things what is it with authority in non-catholic world use actually you would be surprised but with a lot of more historical Protestants and I'm not talking about the Protestants who are simply you know you don't even have knowledge of their own but faith in a hospital with historically oriented reformed Christians a half for authority there that they do understand a lot of what I say very intelligently and the issue is ultimately I would say more these people are interested in actually learning about the against leg phase Seymour the X and history the more they actually adjust some of their language to better reflect the problems we have so I've had discussions with one Christians you know they are not all the fundamentalist types who simply sit down and are not willing to listen anything from history they'll actually quote the church fathers interesting that still present the more historical use so yes I think it's a good thing that they also have some sense of this because ultimately it will be all religions have their origin from the fact that we have a neatly imbued desire to communicate with the divine and now of course humans have a way to anthropomorphize that divine and that's where you get the differences in religions time goes by a lot of anthropomorphisms get added you know the features of God that are supposed to be non troppo morphic become more and more anthropomorphised than there is syncretism where religions mix with each other and that's why of course you get so many different views but uh you know it's important to distinguish I think anti-catholic rhetoric tations from various sects from the people from different religions who are willing to engage more honestly and actually study what historical Catholicism teaches do you believe in an eternal hell because some Christians today don't and some Christians in history didn't what's your stance on an eternal unending punishment and suffering in hell I mean I accept the Eternity of hell unless shown otherwise but if you mind open to being shown otherwise I'm pretty open-minded when it comes to people showing me but my default position will be staying on the side of it in a very okay what would you say separates am honest from a monotheistic and I'm honest I mean those of the Eastern religions Hinduism certain forms of Buddhism where there's only God where there's only God and only heaven and all separation is illusion there is no eternal hell what separates the monotheists eternal hell from the monasteries yes so now when we're talking about something like this the most important thing to take is to understand it that the Eastern tradition is fundamentally different from core traditions that we are used to in those Eastern religions the religions understood completely different I've had talks with Hindus and they were not thinking in a completely different framework for them a lot of the religion is an expression of culture of tradition of ritual rather than just rigid truth that they want to you know explain to you that's why you see that a lot of Eastern religions are non Chris hella tizen ones for us and for Muslims this is a foreign concept I mean if you have the truth you want to spread the truth right and for a lot of the Eastern traditions with religions like Hinduism you see the almost complete absence of that mentality what you see isn't you know an emphasis on tradition on nationalism and you know on keeping national religion that is something that has to be taken from me basically it's the tradition in which so the difference between a bonused who looks belief in being eternal punishment and a monotheistic course it's been in which those beliefs to go I listened to your talk with our and raw and I did enjoy it I'd like you to talk a little bit about to atheists that I that I have some experience with Erin Roz one and the other is Matt Dillahunty I understand your interview with him was exciting but I didn't have a chance to listen to it can you just talk a little bit about those two characters because they're very visible in the aggressively atheistic community can you just talk a little bit about them yeah so I'm will acquainted with both of them both of them were people I is somewhat admired back in the day when I was converting when I was an atheist and when I left a Thea's right and Aaron raw was always someone I probably had more experience and knowledge with before my interview we had spoken before about various topics I've had before over text and Aaron rise definitely a person I respect very much he was and is one of my favorite atheist youtubers he definitely has a very entertaining when to in eighth and he is actually one of the biggest reasons why I now accept theistic evolution even a big Catholic she really led me there now when it comes to mental or hunty I think that he is also someone who is ultimately always willing to listen to you but one quality slurring that is sometimes displayed and sometimes ability link of opponents but otherwise I think both of them are people I people that are more open-minded and you might think right so yes I definitely have huge respect for them but I disagree on some key issues yet one of the main issues that I like to discuss with atheists is freewill and most self-respecting atheists today who have thought about it deny having free will can you talk a little bit about freewill and monotheism versus atheism just that sort of debate yes I mean again from an atheistic perspective as much as people do not like using that terminology freewill really is something that is being abandoned dr. Daniel Dennett was really a pioneer in this thing and yes ultimately Furman from the perspective metaphysical naturalism freewill is something that's an illusion definitely because we forebrain is simply a product of mechanical workings of the universe no different in a river flowing down the stream really it's an illusion yes take perspective and that is harder to address because when a theist is a very rich and diverse tradition they didn't it would have to be most from Atheist perspective it is totally logical for someone to ended the whole notion of free will living bucketing old and really pioneered this and I think it's feeling more and more since now you know there are still people who address this issue I must give credit to mr. Dan Barker Oh religion foundation who actually did write a book about this and did talk about the day first rejection of philosophers we have taken you know given us their positions on it he talked about blink - but really it is going down rohde yes it's finding more acceptance among the atheist community that free will is entirely an illusion and I think it is totally the framework under which the atheists operate were you a hard not really I wouldn't put put it myself that way when I was an atheist I spent most of my time he's using an Occam's razor as my argument so I wouldn't argue for my physical would attack another person's position when I started applying skepticism to my position that's when the thing started to change so yeah I'd like to because we're talking about freewill and atheism another approach I like to take with atheists is the beginning of everything that is and I guess you could label this has sort of a contingency argument for the existence of the first cause the uncaused first cause and it's one of my favorite proofs of the existence of God who is infinite in every perfection but that idea sort of segues nicely into istic evolution versus creationism can you just sort of give your reasoning of why you reject young Earth Creationism especially since you were raised with it ostensibly and one of the best arguments for the Big Bang and the singularity how do you explain the singularity and stuff like that answer are you is having God create that singularity so the first British that I like to make is that evolution is not every field of science that conflict a schism when we're talking about the theory of evolution most specifically what we're describing this deep my first city of species so the Big Bang is not a theory of evolution it's filled with this knowledge but fields with the theory of evolution is biology so change my mind is basically that as Christians we believe that God reveals himself also for me and evidence and so we can't merely disregard ever think the evidence is important in determining and changing our minds and I think evidence is sufficient this is not 6,000 years old and where the evidence is sufficient to save the Genesis the first folks were not written as ornithology textbooks they were not written to be seen from our perspective and just he analyzes normal history textbooks they're written there's a narrative to give a seola like so in Psalm 1 138 when a that says you wonderfully need to me in my womb all of us understand that this is was not the embryology this is just a poetic beautiful description of how thankful it is so Genesis incorporates a narrative that was very common around a time and around that is to illustrate points more easily and of course that's symbolic on the Sabbath they got wrist so Israelites has to do it's really a beautiful allegory sort of thing was intended for theological reasons and of course it's infallible and people assume when I take such an approach that I'm saying there are mistakes in the Bible of course not I believe Genesis infallible available is what I believe that the book of Job is a global not infallible is a book for repairing cars but I believe it's infallible for the purposes was written which is fee ology and equipping Christians to better understand their faith do you have difficulty reconciling some of the dogmas of the Catholic Church with your theistic evolution for example it is a dogma defined dogma and explicit dogma that the soul the human soul is the form of the human body so that's that seems like an insurmountable stumbling block for anyone that wants to engage in theistic evolution and there are other there are other dogmas normally divine dogma such as not really I don't I I accept that the human soul was not something that evolved was specially created so you know I I accept that date human humans in their physical form did undergo a process of development a mother soul but I don't really claim to know all that much about it I simply but historically the evidence that we have yeah so can you paint a little picture I'd like to understand how you see the timeline of God having created a good world that's the dogma of the church that he created a good world and that there was no evil in that world until sin so can you paint a little timeline for me of the perfect world that God created and that means a perfect universe all of space-time it was perfect until saying can you paint a little timeline of when the first human came on the scene with respect to you know the thorns and thistles and disease and death and that sort of thing and the six days of creation place yeah well you know this is again something that I do not take a rigid doctrine on you could obviously RQ mmm about the pre-adamite s-- so there for example but when we're talking about the perfect world or something what we mean is there was a specific time in evolutionary history when for example Eve human beings the perfect condition we live in and this is what was being talked about there obviously other explanations for it which I mean had I do not take a rigid stance on that specific one I accept this dogma that the Genesis thing that has historical behind it so I do accept that there was a little figure of course I don't accept the ones that become that because the church itself laughs famous encyclical Divino uh flaunt a Spiritu where he discusses a theory of evolution that's pretty much I think that was a very grown pretty encyclical that is worth looking at and seeing what the church permits us he would say yeah there there certainly a permission to examine both sides of the question of material development of of the body of Adam first the first man but I really want to get back to the timeline do you deny that God created a perfect universe do you think that there was death and disease before Adam fell and if not then just paint a little picture of that timeline how did how did the perfect creation look before Adam fell and then after Adam fell and about what time in history in geological time according to you did that take place I know I did not take a rigid stance on that at all no I I don't personally you know what we have to accept is of course the dominica teaching of the church and cancel it with the scientific evidence but as far as the knowledge goes if I can paint a picture um something that is not available then no I I liked him up because I just for the record would be being complete for me to do that in Tuesday's argue for what the perfect world would move like a world yeah I definitely believe that there was a time in history where God humans disobeyed God and for that pain punishment and you know the doctrine of the original sin but I cannot go beyond what the Scripture teaches us more allegorically and accepting evidence for origins of the human race okay I want you to talk a little bit about Adams birth was he conceived in the womb of some sort of primate or humanoid or whatever they call it no no I do not take that stance at all I think it was a fully human homo sapiens lived and his description in the Bible is a game based on actual historical event now again as I said so books of the Bible is up as actually Bishop Baron would say the Bible itself is a library so you can't go into a library and say is this library called allegorical or is the slight very literal right there are different genres and the genre of Genesis is mostly narrative genre so narrative is not just a liquori it may contain cores of historicity but mostly it incorporates the sisters it for to give a larger picture of see theologically right and this is exactly what I would say that there is a historical event about you know humans disobeying on a more deal event but I I don't take that Genesis was written as I don't believe that that even was the intent of the authors of Genesis yeah I'd like to avoid if you would just indulge me avoid talking about genesis in the bible if you would please just talk about what your Catholic faith consists of in terms of Adam okay and then we can get to evader but just with Adam like um you're saying that he was fully he was an adult fully formed adult when he was created by God did I understand you correctly well yes I personally accept that Adam existed as a historical figure it was our species Homo sapiens sapiens I am open to the idea that Adam did not have parents but I do not accept that a creature to live or so something like that I think he not means to describe actual history right or perhaps if you don't want to talk about it yeah I just want to avoid talking about the Bible it's it's it's it's completely it really is to me completely beside that point I just want to get an idea of this story in the timeline but you've made it sound like you're reluctant to put Adam in the womb of some sort of ape and have him be born and then be transformed by the infusion of the human form which is what would necessarily have to happen according to the Catholic dogma that the human soul is the form of the body so as soon as he has his human soul he has to have a human body not an ape body not any sort of lower primate body but a human body so at some point it's it's so it would seem that you reject the idea that he was formed in the womb of some sort of a is that true yeah so the key to understanding is that were all apes including me and you right I mean they're really from an accent understand if there was no difference of course she Kings are not simply descendants of Apes humans Clarence right so that is beside the point I do not believe that I'm open to trying different arguments I did not take a dogmatic stance my way or the air the magnetic things are important with an exception the things that are not undefined I leave undefined I'm open I'm open minded to the idea that president I'm open minded that's for example except what is the kinetically different and okay you should like to talk about Eve beings formed from the side of Adam there's a long tradition and it was almost enshrined as infallible doctrine in the first Vatican Council but it was it was it was in the first draft or the second draft of a document that was going to be published and propagated to it the franco-prussian war or whatever it was broke out so I didn't it didn't come to fruition so I don't have an actual don't my defined that Eve wasn't created from the side of Adam but I do firmly believe it because that's the overwhelming consensus of the fathers and of tradition what's your comment on that yeah so when we're talking about the church fathers the important part to decide is not just what they believed but the reasons for rightly accepted and this again was is a huge part of the guess like why someone accept something if you go to more earlier fathers right but we forgive that quote for a gift that what we tolerate from them we would not tolerate from today's fathers for example origin was basically a declared her etiquette still we use him as an authoritative very mature simply because of how early he was in history and how undeveloped the doctrine was language right and this is actually has been a part of respecting which is why they accepted something this is the important part a lot of people for example in the early church would have accepted geocentrism too did not go back to you essentially we evaluate why they acceptance and that's how we judge them so the issue that the church fathers believe a literal Genesis is interesting but it's also worth noting that there were a lot of shirt feathers that more generally tried to you know drive a separation between the realm of science and the realm of theology and theology of course is interlinked with science but there is a difference between them and this is the difference that has to be emphasized also as I said have to talk through the natural revelation which we accept that God reveals himself in nature and when this revelation paints a humana misleading picture from would be accepted historically and we have three we read what we accept historically because now I'm telling you I have a book commissioned fess my love the miracles the geocentric model of the universe and that was accepted the water treatment right not go back to that as we evaluate the historical context not only once they believed but why they believed it and when we look at it from that way theistic evolution is something that is totally in line with Catholic tradition which which I think again when we're talking with usage evolution we have perfectly accept the universe was created ex nihilo I accepted atom historic exists these are things that have been except maybe church and again you have to you'd have to convolute it a bit not to accept it now again I'm reluctant to call someone who does not accept several existence and not actually if it came but you know it would be harder to argue because it certainly has been defined as historical figure but as far as what the church permits that is what I take right Dietrich has admitted the acceptance of theistic evolution is totally in line well here we are warned not to treat theistic evolution as if it's an established fact that it's a truth we're warned that we have to submit to the church and the church has a final decision and it was merely a a lot of these documents from the different popes were merely encouraging us to examine different sides of the question just think with contraception right and then when the church finally spoke on contraception a lot of people were disappointed and angered by the decision of the church but I for one celebrate I think it was was a humanity asur what was the name of that that in cyclicals that pope st. all the six came out with you criminalistics so yeah i want to terminally ties which were humanity to excuse me yeah thanks the other one Humana generous i think has to do with the evolution the question of theistic evolution there's another interesting series of questions to do with theistic evolution and it stems back to this notion that there was a period of problem where you're now in the era of Providence but there was a of creation for six days whether those are six 24-hour days or whatever it doesn't really matter the point is that there was this sort of distinct realm of time whereby a special creation dominated and then of course God's providence takes over on day seven and we see you know we can breed and interbreed with different types of dogs get different explore different avenues like that but it would seem that the theistic evolution is forced to say that natural processes took took lower creatures and developed them into higher creatures for example the first life-form whatever it was it was probably small and relatively simple compared to a human being the the by all the secular biologists have different opinions about what that first life-form might have been and I don't want to get into a biogenesis because it's ridiculous it's another rabbit hole but the notion that I'm focusing in on here is natural processes developing a lower life form into a higher life form and there's the principle of proportionate causality which says you can't give what you don't have and so God alone and create and can create a new higher species and so it would seem that the theistic evolution the theistic evolutionist is abandoning the principle of proportionate causality with it which we can't do science and is abandoning this notion as Dogma that only God can create because you have the natural world creating higher from lower which is against the amount of time I think that's a totally inconsistent way to approach it because I mean under that framework we have to also abet and be whole idea human birth and development I mean any or womb you developed from being a single-celled zygote to being a multi-cell human beings right now obviously no one would ridiculously argue that that somehow violates any dogma of the church or any scientific principle it's the same issue we have here I mean God used natural processes to develop state the universe and the workings of the universe and be when we're talking about God as prepared as women you have to avoid takings of very primitive anthropomorphic principle bodies a cosmic painter and literally sits down with an invisible sponge you have to see it more from a more broader perspective we see that as the cause and the causing our times because we do not have a sufficient term to read what God did we only use our analogies so the best analogy would be a baker right this is the framework I cake okay so is it safe to say that you believe that thirteen point whatever a billion years ago everything was there everything that was in its whatever configuration it had all of matter energy had a certain configuration in thirteen point whatever billion years ago and the potential was there for everything that we have today are you saying that that potential has been actualizing is that what you're saying is that what theistic evolution is necessarily saying no not really because as I said these take evolution is mostly about to biology what you're talking about is about tis knowledge and because Molly G ken has led and the Big Bang Theory L just reminding people was discovered by father Josh limit and it was criticized for lending credibility to the biblical worldview that the university has seen you were beginning right so now we have come to a place where Big Bang has actually seen as an equation based on tables but there was a big bang is actually a very potent evidence right the universe does have a beginning at least or local one so no I'm not saying that there was a potency I'm saying there was a singular beginning and this is the most important showing that the biblical framework in the worldview of a beginning is justified okay do you believe in the first law of thermodynamics do you think it's universally valid that there is a fixed amount of energy of a fixed amount of matter energy in the universe oh sure I accept the first and the second law that it's constantly the the total amount of useful energy on average is always diminishing do you agree with the second is even the closed system in a closed system do you consider the physical universe a closed system or an open system I do not know okay well physicists can I studied physics at University physicists consider the universe the material universe in a closed system this is why the first law of thermodynamics says that everything in the universe is all we've got and matter can only be transformed it can neither be created nor destroyed this is for the entire universe okay so we agree with that you know I don't really see a lot of problem that I think that standard waitresses so this creates a problem for the theistic evolutionist because you have to say that in the beginning in that singularity if you want to subscribe to the Big Bang model and you don't have to but it seems like you're leaning toward it if you do subscribe to that or whatever model uses it doesn't just declare fake when I say that I accept theistic evolution I mostly talk about biological evolution that does not necessitate but I accept cosmological theories do as long as I accept the diversity of species that's what biological evolution is about so while I do accept the Big Bang model which many people are abandoning me atheists are and I mean it is for whatever reason but I personally don't that is not necessary to accept to us to get volution you could accept whatever you want about the cosmology as far as you know you can still be a theistic evolutionist if you accept diversity diversification of species right so that's the big separator because I've seen a lot of this where people say oh you accept evolution so that tell me this about for small inky tell me this about chemistry and I try to explain to them none of these are integral to the theory of evolution the theory of evolution by natural selection is about the diversity of species about how they diversified this is what I said this is my portion history I could accept that it not to believe in Big Bang or believed in Big Bang yeah that's what I said yeah it doesn't really matter what model you adhere to don't get hung up on the biological stuff I'm talking in very broad terms about the development of where we are today and everything we have today the life we have today and the different flora and fauna we have on earth and whatever basically the configuration of matter energy that's distributed throughout all of space-time today came from the past and the evolutionists whether it's coincidental or whether it's part of their evolutionary theory doesn't really matter but they all emphasize the fact that things developed from non-life to life and so on and so forth and to nitpick and say well that's not technically part of that field of evolution evolution is specifically about biology I don't care let's let's ignore those distinctions and let's just talk big picture and if you can forgive me for using the word evolution in that broad way like it otherwise I'll just switch to the word change because if you want it as long as it's clear that when I describe evolution what I mean is biological evolution sure so we're going to talk about change in general development of matter energy configurations in space time so whatever your model is doesn't matter but you believe that everything back then way back then had the potential to develop by natural processes into everything that we have today but there may be some divine intervention in there right where does divine intervention come in and how often are there miracles no I don't I don't see it like that I don't think that God has it's left it in often my framework is different my friend which is the very fact that natural laws exist and can logically be studied is inexplicable without something ultimately that will start resembling the divine so what I think is that the very fact that these laws are there rather than not being is the reason you are related to something divine I'm not saying that these laws existed but once in a while God's pops in and does the miracle but for everything I'm saying that the very fact that there are these patterns and there are these laws and there are these configurations is something that will ultimately invariably logically lead you to the man yeah there's something I want to go back to something you said about the fetus developing into a fully grown a fully grown human there is that potential within the human because of the nature of the human being there is built into that nature a potential to develop which is like in the Acorn there's a develop for you there's a potential for the oak tree okay it may not reach that fruition but there's the potential there and it actual eise's overtime and it takes in water and sunlight and all kinds of things from the environment just like the fetus does okay so there's a categorical difference between that development of nature which is built into your nature to have that potential for growth and for change there's a categorical difference between that development and not potential and the difference the completely different kind of animal for example a human coming from a bacteria there's a completely different category of thinking that's taking place there are no yes so can I ask a question do you think that the evidence matters when we're discussing theistic evolution evidence always matters everything matters everything matters do you believe but is it your assertion that evidence does not point to biological evolution is that what you assert yeah we've never witnessed what they call history can I ask you a question you mentioned that you have a science background or maybe yeah yeah I studied physics so then this will be much much more easier do you accept that an animal can produce offspring and whose descendants can interbreed over time they start to differ so much that they can no longer interbreed yeah it's because of the devolution that's like the genetic entropy right we're not getting better word hey as time goes on we're actually degrading so you accept that there could be a species let's run down that produces two lines whose descendants can no longer interbreed with each other yes of course what stops you from saying that these have evolved into two different kinds because you never get new functionality and new positive net gains in terms of functionality in terms of something something that doesn't well something that doesn't have an eyeball doesn't give birth of something than eyeball but we who accept the theory of evolution do not believe that that happens either that's a caricature what we accept is that through diversity species can no longer interbreed and once they reach a point where they can't agree they're starting to be considered new subspecies or a species and thus we get a diversification work from having one species you get several different species right yeah yeah I don't have any problem with species is actually a very it's a very nitty-gritty classification you know we need to go higher up on that classification scale to get to what I'm talking about I mean I don't I don't like these sorts of classification categories that are all very ambiguous and man-made and flexible too because we can we can even the experts differ among themselves so how many species of finches there are for example so your assertion is basically that animals and I'll try to understand correctly first is I used to accept the creationist model your assertion that various categories of animals were created independent of each other and this is where we get kinds basically we had a time or different categories of animals like lions and koalas were created separately from each other in fully developed forms and this is how we define different clients cetera certian yeah I'm not going to dedicate myself to that category of kind because I don't even know how broad or how narrow the kind is in secular biological circles and I'm not attached to any of these classification systems but let's just say let's just say that God created a bunch of different kinds in the in the in a non-technical sense of that word just different kinds of animals whether they're kinds in the technical sense is another question right I'm not I'm not married to that but God created different kinds of animals so am i I am NOT a cat and I'm not gonna ape I know you think that I'm an ape but I do believe that a lot I don't think that you're an ape I mean I simply go by what the word means in biology it's not that I think you are I think I just used that term as biologists use it I did not even yeah I mean I I've seen enough of aaron ross videos here's a phylogeny stuff to know that he thinks I'm a eukaryote and by you know I think that I'm a human being and I think that I have something in common with a rock and I have something in common with a drop of water and I have something in common with an ape and have something in common with a banana and I'm not ashamed to have something in common with a pile of excrement right I have something in common with a pile of excrement right doesn't mean I'm a pile of excrement doesn't mean I evolve from a pile of excrement so we need to be careful when we're when we're pattern matching and if you look at the phylogeny project it's really embarrassing when you see the way that one branch way over here is reconnected way over here because of some genetic discovery and they're like oops okay fits over here and it is it's very flexible it's very adaptable it's very changeable because they're they're starting presumption is it look we can classify things together like with like and the more they have in common in in in terms of physiology or in terms of genetics we can classify it that's the underlying assumption of this this is a secular evolution and I think a few evolutions also into that to know the problem again as as I said is was evaluating the evidence because ultimately look what you concede and this is the most important you obviously concede that through natural selection species or whatever category you want to use can adapt to their environments in different ways you accept that species mmm develop more positive traits right like having fur to withstand cold and the species that developed in South might have shorter fur so as not to get too hot you accept that all these sleeping I I accept you had long hair short hair and a dog's long way that point of view my point is what stops you from saying evolution has taken place once that happens and those species can't breed with each other anymore right can't interbreed they cannot have children they have adapted to different environments what stops you from saying evolution has taken place because I don't see any new functionality being introduced into the gene pool I see a degradation of the gene pool always we never see a higher form of life coming from a lower form of life we've never seen it no one's ever seen that in the laboratory or in nature we don't define evolution that way the way we defined evolution is the change of allel functions what we defined as evolution is its macro evolution basically would be simply speciation which is the inability to interpret anymore and the species have become so diverse that they can't interbreed they're separate you have to interbreed with others and as far as the development goes their appearance starts to change right because they have fur for example at different functions so yeah they always had the potential for fur that's the thing anything anything that develops any attribute or any any characteristic whether physical or whatever it always had the for that and that's what separates the young earth creationist from any sort of evolutionist whether you're theistic evolutionist or any other kind of evolutionist is that we don't believe that an amoeba or a bacterium has the potential to become a human given enough so you could always well you don't need to go that far I mean if you accept the basics of evolution then you could simply say I accept evolution but I don't accept their example a specific for me I don't see why you would separate between I think that there could basically be a single species and then diversify into multiple species that can interbreed yes a always could never become this big probably even define complexity because if you look at some animals they're much more complex and they have you know a common ancestor and you probably accept that wolves and certain small dogs had the common ancestor and if you look at intelligent wolves who are impacts or have a huge hierarchy and then look at a small dog that is it can't even bark properly you know that they come from the Somoza function again loss of function it's always a loss of functionality over time this is the thing we're not getting improvements when we get these purebred dogs that are always sick they're always degraded in every way shape and form and your example with going from one kind of dog to another kind of dog it just reinforces the idea that we've never seen a dog turned into a non dog or an aunt or a dog come from a non dog it's always accepted dollars and wolves had the common in sister right yeah they both look like dogs to me I'm no expert there may be so it's about look so it's what looks to you like they're like is that it no it's it's a theological question right I accept young Earth Creationism because that's what my church excuse me I don't accept theistic evolution I accept young Earth Creationism because that's what my church is always taught and so when I look at the different life forms and the diversity of life I don't try to imagine as you do and as Aaron radha's that we all have a common ancestor which was a single-celled creature or some sort of bacterium or something I don't do that you said that a dog did not come from a non dog but then you accepted that wolves and dogs had a common ancestor so was it a wolf or a dog that was a common ancestor well I mean I'm using the word dog very loosely as the as that common ancestor right but I mean if it turns out it has some long fancy Latin name it's going to look like a dog I guarantee you that it's not going to look like as it looks is it about looks no it's about Catholic dogma and we have been taught that tradition teaches us from day dot that that special creation is the case and that theistic evolution is not the case we have dogmas which forbid I think implicitly if not explicitly they that forbid us from entertaining theistic evolution so it has nothing to do with my appreciation of four-limbed creature and how much it looks alike with the dog and wolf and a source of thanks no it has nothing to do with my amateur approach to biology has nothing to do with I mean like I said it could be a long name of the common ancestor of the wolf and the dog I don't care but it's gonna call it a dog until I learn the fancy Latin name for the common ancestor but I guarantee you I guarantee you it will look like a dog it won't look like an amoeba or something like that are you sa David contest no so then do you believe that the Catholic Church can be led by a heretic who does not proof profess the true faith sure you believe that the church can relate I believe that the truth I believe the Pope can be a heretic the church is not dogmatically defined whether or not the Pope can be a material heretic I think it can be so when Pope Pius the 12th and I will find the quote now to just share it probably image after Leo 13th to find that a Catholic is someone who is baptized and accepts the true faith do you follow that yeah so do you think the Catholic can be someone who is baptized well I mean I've never met a Catholic who accepts the true faith completely so I hope that that what do they call it what's that sort of ignorance that we have it allows us to not fall into sin invincible ignorance I hope the invincible ignorance is behind the little old lady that I met at church who believes in reincarnation and the other one that believes in this new age teaching and the other new age teaching and the priest I met that doesn't believe in the real presence of the Eucharist I'm hoping and praying that they have invincible ignorance because they've strayed from the Catholic faith but technically I mean their material there they've strayed from the teachings of Jesus Christ they strayed from that faith I think it's going a little bit far to say that they're a heretic because to be a heretic you need to be corrected by the church and to obstinately refuse to come in line and that very rarely happens to any individual down at street level so then you believe their Pope Francis probably Pope Benedict the sixteenth a pope john paul ii where pretty much heretics denying what was taught as you said probably dogmatically about young earth creationist no I mean there's been no explicit dogma saying that a special creation of the body and young Earth Creationism at the age of the earth many sorts of things there is no explicit dogma I am I'm inferring I'm using inference based on existing explicit dogmas that talk about related issues right so this is a theological speculation that I'm engaged in and I'm free to do that because there is no there is no dogmatic pronouncement on young Earth Creationism I know that I don't have the weight of dogma behind me to say look here's the dogma a young Earth Creationism in this case but I'm speculating based on overwhelming consensus of the fathers and on the on the connected dogmas which are infallible and the connected teachings of the Living Magisterium which are infallible for example the ecumenical councils you look at the Council of Trent for example it strongly supports young Earth Creationism and it's not explicitly defined by the church so you are free I'm not calling you a heretic I'm not saying that you've strayed from the true faith I'm not saying that Pope Francis has strayed from the true faith on that point but he may have strayed from defined dogma on other points I don't know but I'm not policing him or anyone else right it's up to the individuals conscience to learn the faith and to know the faith in it to adhere to the faith I I give the benefit of the doubt to Pope Francis into you into everyone else I think Pope Francis is a good Catholic man with a good saintly man I wouldn't be surprised if he is canonized as a saint in the future I don't agree with him on evolution obviously but that's something that the church allows us for now to investigate is he is he investigating or is they just shrugging his shoulders like most people and saying go along to get along that I now I definitely think Pope Francis has been very supportive of science and has encouraged other Roman Catholics do not you know be more fundamentalist about this honestly I did not think that an earth creationist Catholics themselves are perfectly wrong I just think that scientifically it's important you accept the natural revelation - and I think that a natural revolution has pointed to the idea that species can bear supplying species are interconnected and interrelated and as far if you are not willing to say that the Catholic Church has been medically taught young Earth Creationism and you're willing to say that you can safely be a Roman Catholic and accept overwhelming scientific evidence my question is why not at least for Microsoft maybe you don't agree that if it's the case but help see the whole point otherwise you'd have to pronounce the fact that was right every takes or at the last bbc's at least that's of course I cannot comment on Pope John Pope first all the sixth III don't do not have knowledge whether they accept it but I know that Pope John Paul the second and Benedict the 16th and Pope Francis more pronounced the more pronounced emphases have made it clear that they accept did you not accept integration addictive 16 showed some sympathy towards clearly design but it would still be hard for me to expect accept that perspective that occurred this is the church's tradition as this is hue you have said because you said that was the reason why you didn't say there was just evidence which I tried pointing to you to words you said that no the reason I believe this is because this is what is thought if that's how it's been taught then I don't know how you can argue that Pope Francis is not someone who is mistaking feel perfectly not just historically living electrically because what you're saying that the church has taught this dogmatically and it has it no no no I never said it would caught it taught it dogmatically I see they're connected dogmas which would necessarily imply I think what I'm speculating here that I think necessarily imply that theistic evolution is off the table that's my speculation I could be wrong but I'm firmly convinced that the the dogma that God created a good world and a dogma that this soul is the form of the body those exclude the possibility of theistic evolution that's my personal opinion I could be wrong I'm not saying that it's a dogmatic teaching and you're a heretic if you don't believe in young earth creationist oh I'm not I'm not saying that and I want to emphasize since you brought up Pope Francis and the recent Pope's I do want to emphasize to you you ask me if I'm I said if accantus far from it I am my number one principle is love and respect and docile and submissive obedience to the Living Magisterium and that includes and that includes Pope Francis and it is centered on Pope Francis and that is the that's where most of my emphasis lies in terms of my Catholicism it's on the authority of the successor of st. Peter he holds the keys we need to love him we need to respect him and not only that we need to follow his lead in terms of emphasis he is not emphasizing young Earth Creationism and how that's the next new point that we that we're going to that all Catholics need to get in line with what he's emphasizing are what the right wing sees as progressive notions and the right wing sees him as some sort of socialist and some sort of you know yeah they see him as a heretic I don't see him that way I see him as emphasizing Christian Catholic social teachings a real emphasis on the dignity of the purpose is not Almighty is that what you said for me because I need to get into the ark to be saved so if I listen to The Vicar of Christ then I will put God first I will have the Ten Commandments a proper interpretation of the Ten Commandments a proper interpretation of the Holy Scripture of Holy Tradition I will have a proper place for Mary and the Saints I will have a proper proper ecclesiology I will have a proper theology I will have a proper social teaching so this for me it's more important to have Pope Francis than it is to have God Almighty because there are many sedima Cantus for example that have many many of the wholesome things that I have as a faithful Catholic but they don't have Pope Francis and so they are technically they're outside of the church and they're and in deep deep trouble they need to they need to get into the ark that's number one they cannot go to heaven if they don't get into the art I mean maybe I didn't understand the term whether it be you believe that the hope is above God Almighty is that what you said yeah because there plenty of people burning in hell who believed in God who worshiped God right but they refused to bow to not know I totally disagree with both the wording and the idea that implies I think that is totally outside of anything the Roman Catholic Church is taught it's a dogma it's an explicit dogma that there's absolutely no possibility of salvation outside of the Holy Roman Catholic Church you have to get in eventually I'm not saying that no Jews get in no Muslims getting in no Hindus or Buddhists get in lots of them get in but they submit through the Pope later to marry and going off without late of the catholic church there is no salvation that doesn't imply of course formal membership if you hear that the Pope is above God Almighty is heresy and absolutely unacceptable as well because I submit to the Pope I am I'm not a heretic because I submit to the precisely because I submit to the Pope right there are many people who didn't that's why you submit to his church and of the other way around no but you don't seem to understand the Pope is not God but he is God's vicar on earth and if I do not submit to him then it matters little if I say my rosary 10 times a day and I have a great devotion to Mary in the Saints because the son of a Cantus do that and those at magic Gloria do that's right so it doesn't matter if I have God and if I have Mary and if I have the Saints if I don't have the Pope right you have to you have to submit to the Living Magisterium that's my point that's why I place the Pope of Oh God Almighty in that sense in the same sense that if I live during the time of Noah I would put Noah above God Almighty in terms of I need to I need to submit to Noah in order to have life because that's what God has ordained could God ordained that those who refused order there prior to get on the ark Irish and so it is of the utmost importance many people outside of the ark that perished in the flood believed in God and worshipped God but they were too proud to humble themselves to a mere man that God had appointed that man being Noah and we all know the character and I know as I said I completely disagree with that idea the papacy in the Bishop of Rome the history behind it this does not support that view of it at all being part of because that's exactly why I submit to the Pope because he tells me how he tells me how to sort my priorities right because I submit to Pope Francis I know that the only commandment is love love of God and love of neighbor for God's sake so I have everything in its proper proportion in its proper higher hierarchy because precisely because I submit to the man who was appointed by God to be the Vicar of Christ the Son of the Cantus don't have it right so there they are in grave danger I don't know if you realize this but the Civic auntie's are in grave danger unless until such time as they humble themselves and they submit to the one true church and to that man who holds the keys do you not see that I agree that the city of occultism is not true and for the reasons but historical views and if I if I may speak I'll highlight that historically the church has placed even the council's above hopes if you look at polka nuria's the first and the mistake with Manos elitism will thing ended the sixth Council the whole idea that Pope is above what has been historically taught or that the Pope is above what God has loved is of course contrary to it the Pope Francis cannot introduce an Englishman he cannot even make it no Dogma to something that has not already been within means from Catholicism the Bishop of Rome holds and historically has held much less authority than you're willing you well you're completely missing the point uh first of all I want to correct you historically the those who were pushing that a council was superior to a Pope they they were explicitly condemn by subsequent councils and by Pope's that ratified those councils the Pope is supreme and he doesn't need the he doesn't need the church in order to speak with the full authority he has the full jurisdiction and at the full authority so that's a historical fact of the Catholic faith you need to look into that because the council is not superior to the Pope this is well established in in the history of the church and history of the council's you need to listen to that we believe that the Pope can overturn the rulings of the Council of Nicaea IIIi have never said that the Pope is omnipotent or that the Pope replaces God I said that it's important it's more important to me it's more it's higher on my list of priorities you submit to Pope Francis right now and it is to submit to God because those who submit to god are there many who are outside of the Catholic Church like you said they may they may find their way into the church and make it to heaven god only knows right my point my point is not that he's my point is not that he is God Almighty that he is in every way superior to superior to God my point is that it is most of the utmost importance to me that I'm in union with the Living Magisterium and that I'm in docile submission to the Living Magisterium because with that comes everything else the church is a perfect society all of the means of salvation are in the Catholic Church now there are means like you said there are means of salvation outside of her visible boundaries and that will help bring people in to the church this is the teaching of Vatican 2 if you read Vatican do the documents of attica - you'll understand my perspective it it's all about bringing people into the arc if you're not in the arc your dooms you have to get into the AIRC so God allows the means of salvation to be propagated outside of the earth just like just like with Noah in his day he went around advertising and there were little Noah hid it cut cults that cropped up and there are many saving truths outside of Noah's family and of Noah's domain geographically but only eight people made it onto the ark and that's the historical reality from my perspective yeah so it may be that our frameworks differ but personally for me I accept any authority that the Bishop of Rome has her head I accept specifically because first item for Jesus I accept the church established I do not first submit to go and then find that I first find God in the end I find his church so the submission to God inhale submitting to what history should not the other way around it means heretical treatments consistent yeah because you're you're misunderstanding mischaracterizing my model my model is it think in terms of Noah with his ark okay the most important human being at that time the most important person even above God Almighty was Noah because that's how God ordained that salvation history would unfold so God is humble he's not like us he's not proud so he knows that he's top dog but he but when he when he obliges us to submit to a mere human being whether it's Noah whether it's st. Peter or whether it's Pope Francis or whether it's his Blessed Mother the Virgin Mary he knows that the demons are incapable of humbling themselves but God is not incapable of humbling himself and we as Catholics cannot be proud we need to humble ourselves as well and that's why but it's a narrow path that's why only eight made it onto the ark and Noah's day and that's why many today are complaining about Pope Francis and many said that said if accantus don't even believe there has been a Pope for many many years right so we need to be humble as God is humble and I'm not saying what you think I'm saying I'm not saying anything heretical god forbid right I'm submitting to put to Pope Francis precisely because he is the representative of Jesus Christ and he is the the visible head of the church and of that living Magisterium ask a Christian if tomorrow it was discovered I know this won't happen and I don't believe this but this aid was discovered Jesus never existed but the Pope says that he did and others are mistaken what would you submit to we do submit to evidence that Jesus did not exist or reducible it's biblical Pilate says well there's a hierarchy in the sciences I put god almighty at the top of the hierarchy he is sites itself with a capital s beneath that we have divine revelation and beneath that we have theology and various sciences of theology and philosophy beneath that and then the Natural Sciences and so on and so forth right so um there's a hierarchy in the sciences I there the physical Natural Sciences will never will never no matter how they seem to contradict Catholic dogma they will never sway me they may make me nervous I may start sweating and losing sleep at night because of the overwhelming amount of natural evidence that seems to contradict the dogmas of the church but I will always as a principal put God first divine revelation and then you know that includes a tradition and Scripture and then theology philosophy and then natural science so natural science is really low on the totem pole that's why I'm very comfortable being you know being a young earth creationist even though everyone is so convinced by the so-called evidence the evidence is real but how do you interpret that evidence that's the key question and it's the same thing if they found the bones of Jesus I just wouldn't believe that they were the bones of Jesus I just wouldn't believe it because natural science doesn't hold as much sway with me doesn't have as much authority with me as philosophy or theology or divine revelation and certainly not of God and God Almighty my point is that I I do not understand how it is possible to distinguish submission human submission we owe to the Pope from the submission we owe to Christ I mean we ice a personal personal knowledge of the Pope as an authority only and solely for the fact that God and Jesus recognized the papacy and his church established it's not the other way around for me I do not see how it you know heretical and the perhaps again you might be under any to say something else of course and whatever the free that language is completely unacceptable the office of the Bishop of Rome is not supposed to be one of an orator stupid a in a role of the servant of the servants who has been entrusted with leading the church and he was not more important that God Almighty completely disappeared well if you had if you had a set of a can test friend and he said is it is it important that I submit to the Living Magisterium of the holy roman catholic church it's currently in rome in the vatican would you say it's not important because you have God you have Mary of the Saints you have all your liturgy and you have your your versions of the original that what do you say it's not important or would you say that it is the most important thing it is the most important thing even though you have God even though you have Jesus Christ even though you have the Trinity you know I disagree that you have Jesus Christ if you do not submit to Jesus so you don't think that the set of accantus believe in God a triune God though they don't believe that the second person incarnated they don't believe that the second person built the church on st. Peter they don't believe in the in Salvation history and the Saints and all that you think that the set of a can test don't have all of that they don't have all of that because they davidís believe that which ended when Jesus said that the church would never and wouldn't never be prevailed against so we do not have all that okay do they believe in God the Father yes they do believe in love the pub so if they came to you and said is it important to me that I submit to Pope Francis would you say no no you have got the father and got the father's about Pope Francis therefore it's not important I trust God the Father completely if you have him on his side that's whatever I would say that if you are submitting to Christ Church then you are in grave danger that's what I would say that's the difference between us yes but the reason I want them to submit to Christ Church is because it's the one who bears it's not first one time to accept the church and find the priest was be first start with God and we submit to the church because it's God who established it if the church was not established by God it's worthless completely but this is the most important thing - of course of course this is what the Church teaches right that's why but it's only those who submit it's only those who submit to the Living Magisterium that belong to the church and that that

CVS Live Guest - 2020-01-22 - Matthew Murdock

so we are live and I've got Matthew Murdock here say hello Matthew hello what's been going on what's on your mind and what do you want to talk about with me today well a lots been going on I just want to shoot the breeze I know that you were interested in talking about my views on Hell so I'd be since I had that went on the encounter which was a men's retreat after almost losing my faith completely as you know I don't know if people listening might know about that but you you helped pull me off the ledge many times since I met you falling into atheism but I had that really drastic life-changing experience by going to that men's retreat experience God encountered him firsthand and came down from that experience a new man growing the fruits of the spirit peace patience gentleness self-control even to the point where my wife actually said I want whatever you have something that she would normally say to me but you know that lasted for the last couple of months but now I'm I'm starting to kind of tank back into the way that I was before which is very unfortunate but I had to be out about that so we can talk about that that's why I'm at sure so yeah it's nice to hear that you had some good experiences with that and you know I've always been a supporter of everything you do because I know your hearts in the right place and you love the Lord and as I've said it many times in our private conversations if you have God I mean what what else do you eat really have God Almighty so figuring out all the rest is a joy and a privilege just to know God and to love God and to serve God that's the main thing and so that's the emphasis that I've always placed with you and I hope that that resonates with you as a Christian absolutely I because I was just reading in John Gospel of John when Jesus said that eternal life is to know God the Father and Jesus Christ whom he sent and that's that's what I want to do is to know him have a real relationship you know I think I just had no intellectual relationship for a long time where I was kind of going through the motions doing Christian things and just felt that emptiness and that's what eventually led to my collapse and that I had that jolt of an experience I know it was a move of God I know it was the Holy Spirit but I also know no I can't ride that emotional high forever and Here I am I'm not doubting God again but I'm just kind of you know I my old nasty self is coming back as with my family and not a loving person that I'm supposed to be as a follower of Jesus Christ which sucks and it's discouraging you know but yeah well it's an opportunity I just see it as an opportunity to be humbled by your own weakness by your own vice by your own limitations and all that sort of thing it's just an opportunity to humble yourself and go before God and say look at me look at what I am and look at what I am without you and without your grace and you gave me a little taste of grace I like it I want more and I'm nothing without it you know I'm I'm a pathetic mess without your grace I mean that's the boat that I mean that's the boat that you're in and that's the boat that every human being that ever lived is in including the Most Blessed Virgin Mary she's nothing without God without God's grace she had the privilege of the unique privilege of prevenient grace that came before she was conceived in the womb of st. Anna and so she she has that privilege that no one else has but without God's grace she's nothing she knows that and so even the greatest of saints is nothing and it's a it's a miserable sinner without the grace of God this is this is why I resonate with the Protestant religion so strongly even though I think that they're wrong to stay away from the fullness of communion with wrong their emphasis on grace is really awe-inspiring and I do get pushback from some of my comments so people don't like that but I think it's very important to realize that we're nothing without God's grace that really is the whole story for me and then like I said finding your way into a closer relationship with Christ and His Church is of the utmost importance to me but you can't do that if you don't acknowledge about the father you need to we need to take baby steps and we are you know we are spiritual babies we're not great Saints all of us and even like I said even those who are great Saints are only great Saints by the grace of God and they were they were just as pathetic as you are you can read lots of examples of Saints who struggled with anger who struggled with impatience who struggled with sensuality selfishness there's no stories that you can draw on for encouragement and so I I don't know what to tell you other than we're all in the same boat Matthew you know yeah it's frustrating because you know just for that brief period of time maybe a month or so I just I felt like I didn't have to like try to be something but I'm not I just was I had the peace I had the patience I had the self-control my thoughts would just for going toward Christ just naturally I didn't have to sit through Mike I better think about I gotta think about Christ I'm gonna focus my mind focus focus you know then I'm just focusing on focusing on Christ but just how it usually goes during the day you know it's just stupid but sad so it's just like you said it was a little taste but to maintain that I don't know how you maintain it but you know everyone's got their ideas but it was just such a real thing and I just I don't know maybe that's what it was like - when you're I don't know thank you fight or whatever maybe that's how the Saints were just blocking every day after they went through whatever they went through I don't know yeah I just seen a live screen here the live chat there was of a Christos Rick's mentioning that he finds it offensive when Catholics say or give credit to Protestants for the emphasis on grace I mean I'm well aware that everything the Protestants have comes from everything good they have comes from Christ in his church his Holy Roman Catholic Church so I'm not I'm not naive to that fact but when you see when you see someone running with one idea with one theme whether it's Bible alone and then you you sort of see that emphasis on the Bible it makes you it draws your attention back to that level Bible even though they're they're wrong to preach this this this notion of Sola Scripture it's it's the flawed notion but it does draw your attention as a Catholic to the Bible like in the treasure that we have in the church and that comes obviously from Christ in his church and the same thing with any anything else that's being emphasized in in the Protestant sects like in Calvin in Calvinism grace is greatly emphasized but they're wrong obviously they're wrong about many things they're just putting emphasis so much emphasis on grace that they're even willing to annihilate free will yeah I agree oh they misuse grace though and it's all all grace and you know I friends that you know will just go on living a completely sinful screwed-up lifestyle and intersect all of grace man it's all faith and I mean it's misused in those circles too and I don't believe that and I'm not a Sola scriptura guy you know all of our talks in my study through Catholic Catholic apologetics I mean I agree with the Catholic set it's not Sola scriptura is not not biblical the Bible doesn't claim Sola scriptura so I don't have to believe that I know that cannot be it but it's funny that you say that the Calvinists but they get wrong but Kat John Calvin said that nothing he ever wrote in his Institutes wasn't spoken by Augustin first like you just basically took all of his ideas from st. Augustine and then ran with it and I don't know so that's kind of funny but you'd say that because I think that but the Protestants especially Calvinists they say that Rome is so evil yet they got everything from a Catholic saint and then even the Catholics most Catholics that I have talked to I think you as well say that they don't agree with Augustine on a lot of things either yeah I mean he's it's just interesting to know that he is called the doctor of grace that's his title that the church has given San Agustin the doctor of grace because he does emphasize grace so if a Protestant wants to turn to st. st. Agustin and sort of twist his words or take their favorite parts of what he's taught and build a religion around that they're free to do that but they're straying from Jesus Christ in the process unfortunately but you know obviously the reason that I love San Agustin so much is that he's a saint and the church has endorsed many of his teachings not all of his teachings and he himself has retracted or corrected or nuanced a lot of his teachings later in life so I mean you can you just because it's a saint doesn't mean everything he says is infallible he submitted to the church and he the reason he is a scientist because he submitted to the church not because he emphasized grace although grace is a good it's a good of the Holy Roman Catholic Church that the Protestants have picked up on just like other other denominations pick up on one or two different key ideas of Catholicism and they emphasize it to the detriment of everything else and we always need to have a balance and we needed a living Magisterium that can resolve conflicts in private judgements and when people want to lean on their own understanding they're gonna run into trouble inevitably it's very unlikely that someone would lean on their own into understanding their own private judgment and come up with a set of dogmas that correspond exactly with those of Christ and His Church right the odds are against that so probably if you're leaning on your own understanding it's probably a dangerous endeavor thank you yeah I do and I agree yes you know I was pretty much on board with all this before but some of the issue that I take with that now is that what I'm reading researching some of the the dogmas of the faith it's really and I know it's it's private reputation on my own but I mean I'm saying if they had to get together and councils and iron these things out like we take a vote these guys say yes these guys say no and like when they were trying to reason out and flesh out the Trinity is that this is it that that's a bunch of men coming together reasoning and like taking a vote there were some people who disagree and some people who agreed like with the Trinity and what the consensus ended up being like they won the day they won the vote so therefore that stamped of the doctrine as a dogma and that's that's for the doxy right yeah but Betsy seems like a bunch of men relying on their own reasoning they were just pulling up the Scriptures and saying no this scripture says that the scripture says that this tradition says that and they were all kind of voting so that seems like human reasoning is the same thing it seems that way yeah and she seems like for the living Magisterium like I'm saying it I would I know this might be stupid but if it were truly led by the Holy Spirit I think that all of these men represent the Magisterium those who are anointed by God to give us incorrect interpretation on faith and dog doctrine you could stick them all in separate rooms but the same question right and they can all write it down look for and put it forward they all come together and read what they had whatever they decided on the issue and should be a hundred percent unanimous or else what you know if there's one dissenting opinion and it's obviously not the hope the same Holy Spirit communicating to all of them you not I mean yeah that's a nice that's a nice that's a nice fantasy but reality is much better reality is a lot Messier and that's not reality I mean we need to look we need to start we need to start with manifest reality what is the reality today I mean I would prefer that Adam and Eve didn't eat the fruit of the tree what they did okay so we need to start with manifest reality manifest reality as we live in a messy world every human is a sinner but by the grace of God I mean God can and did prevenient grace to Blessed Virgin Mary as I said before but even she is a sinner without that without that prevenient grace so we are in a fallen world we are fallen people our intellects are darkened and our will our will is weakened because of the fall and we our God is working with our fallen nature and it's a very complicated and painful process coming back to paradise and it's not as it's not as neat and tidy as you might like it to be but that's reality you need to look at manifest reality and if you look at the world all of the religions of the world all of those claiming to be monotheistic they worship the one true God and if you look at how they operate in terms of infallible declarations of the central saving truths you're not gonna find any organized religion that's living up to your naive fantasy no offense but that's just the way else I agree so because what we have is a bunch of people doing the exact same thing I'd have to take someone's word for it when there's no real way to validate I can't validate I don't because other religions are actually speaking the truth I'd have to take their word for it just like I'd have to take the word of these guys the Magisterium as you say know you know there's no way for me to about verify whether or not it's those guys are just coming up with things using their own private interpretation and taking a vote and saying okay we'll just go with that and a lot of those things it seems like that's exactly what they're doing no but you're you don't like how the sausage is made but I'm telling you the sausage is wholesome and healthy it's wholesome and healthy just away from the your eyes from the sausage factory that disgusts you but basically it's a wholesome and healthy sausage by the grace of God and there's an important point I wanted to make about that yeah if you want to look at if you want to look at why I trust or why you should trust the Catholic Church as opposed to any other group of people claiming to have infallible guidance of God it's because of the four marks right we have a church that is one Holy Catholic and apostolic those are the four marks and if you investigate those four marks and you try to find out do with it do a test find out if any other religion has the a and if you if you want to also you look at the three attributes that this actually helped me a lot looking at the three attributes of authority because given Authority indirect ability and infallibility if you look at those three attributes which religions claim those three attributes which religion today in just limiting it to Christianity which religions today actually claim that they have not strayed from the traditional teachings on family and sexuality which churches can you name any any Christian denomination that is not strayed on contraception other than the Holy Roman Catholic Church if you look at the history of contraception in Christianity you'll see that everyone started straying in the 20th century and before that there were a few a few cases here and there but it's really in the 20th century everyone started stringing everyone except for the Holy Roman Catholic Church I don't think that's a coincidence that's just the four marks and the three attributes shining through and anyone who's sober and who looks at it with a fair and open mind is going to see that only the Holy Roman Catholic Church is maintaining these very very unpopular positions on family intimacy sexuality and these sorts of things okay well I mean I agree with the contraception thing I mean I'm there with you on that I don't know if that's a oh hey that's one example of moment I yeah I mean it seems like I don't know I mean what if you know the Mormons don't believe in the contraception either so does that mean I should look at them they never changed we need to look at all of the traditional teachings of Christianity if we're going to limit ourselves to talking about Christianity that you don't need to know you can start looking at other forms of religion but if you're if you're happy with Christianity and you want to figure out where the true Church of Christ is I I suggest looking at the continuity of doctrine it's very simple yeah and that's cool but it if you do that there have been in the Catholic Church and Catholic tradition there have been developments have been changes over time no no doctrinal changes you could say it's a progressive revelation want but there are things that in the first couple centuries more didn't exist there weren't dogmas they were around as and if you look now at the growing number even you know the virginity the perpetual virginity of Mary didn't come around for what a thousand years or something no no it was it wasn't I'm sorry Immaculate Conception some of yeah some of those dogmas that we hold to now I mean it took a thousand years as I can know to happen and the schism happened and all that stuff that was like a thousand years after the church is going and it seems like they were developing doctrine developing dogma adding more just kind of like how laws just keep increasing like the law books just get bigger and bigger and bigger as time goes by yeah you could have called people you know before those dogmas were there they could have been living in Paris E or something no it's not a heresy if it's not well defined by the church right I mean the Immaculate Conception is a good example many people were opposed to that doctrine until it was codified and formally defined and then if you then once it's defined if you stray from it then you're yeah you're at risk of becoming a heretic if you persist obstinately in your in your in your private judgment but I wanted to just I just wanted to say there's no there's no development there's no there is no revelation after the death of the last apostle revelation is closed and every single dogma it comes from revelation it comes from the deposit the sacred deposit of faith which is sacred tradition and sacred scripture so there is there's no such thing as a new piece of information coming into the body of secret the secret deposit of faith like when we have a Marian apparition for example everything is tested against the scriptures and against tradition and so when at magic gorya this this alleged gospel who's supposed to be the Blessed Virgin Mary says that she is not the dispenser of all graces that goes against tradition so I reject I reject that and I'm free to reject it until the church says it's authentic and even when the church if the church were to say that magic Oriya is an authentic apparition it just means it's worthy of belief it's not contrary to belief to believe in it but I'm still free to reject it because it's a private revelation it doesn't come from the sacred deposit of faith which closed with the death of Saint John the Apostle so I really want to emphasize with you it's very important to understand that revelation is not ongoing the the public revelation is closed and every dogma comes from the public revelation never from a private revelation never from a Joseph Smith with a new piece of information never ever ever ever ever and if if it were not a constant tradition of the church that the Blessed Virgin Mary was conceived without original sin it would never have been defined by the church period simple as that so you're saying that a Saints in the second century would have been able to tell you yeah we this has been passed down from the Apostles that Mary was immaculately conceived and that she was assumed into heaven bodily they would have been able to tell you that he key players knew it key players among the Apostle among the Apostles how is that transmitted is it transmitted perfectly is it transmitted in a way where everyone is well aware of everything in the sacred deposit of faith that was handed down every Christian is always aware of everything in the sacredness house I faith you know of course not Peter and Paul well select there are select people that definitely knew because it's it's it's the Apostolic Faith which means that the Apostles knew right some of the Apostles knew every doctrine and every Dogma that we come up with the church in the church that we that we define that we discover in the sacred deposit of faith because that's what it is it's a discovery it's not it's not an invention it's a discovery every dogma that we discover was known by one or more of the Apostles and all of the dogmas are known by Jesus Christ and by all the members of the Holy Trinity right it's like they say these are eternal unchanging truths that we are discovering and defining and it doesn't mean that the majority of people the majority of Christians knew consciously all of the content of the sacred deposit of faith that would be completely absurd even in the case of the Trinity like you said there are people that were confused about the nature of God and Christology and all these sorts of things but there is a seed in the sacred deposit of faith there's a seed of that knowledge in the Apostles themselves if you think about on the road to Emmaus if you think about Jesus opening the scriptures to those disciples think about that there's a seed there it's like Socrates said learning all learning is a remembering so Jesus reminds the Apostles oh this is how you read the scripture this is the true meaning this is what was foreshadowed this is what the Messiah is this is what the death and resurrection of the Messiah means it's a remembering it's a calling back to mind were forgetful people even the apostles were frail in their intellect and weak in their will so God had to remind the st. Peter right he said he would deny him and he did deny because he knows the weakness of st. Peter but then he strengthened him with the Holy Spirit so that he could guide and protect the flock I mean this is it's all a very messy loose and messy thing but God's in control and he allows us to be weak and to be frail and to be forgetful and to stray and to fall into Arianism only sorts of things but there will always be that thread of that seed of truth that comes from the sacred deposit of faith that will persist that's the exciting part of salvation history it's not a bored mind we're we're all completely brainwashed in you know blind followers and we all have from a to Zed every single doctrine from the sacred deposit of faith memorized if you're a Christian that's what it means no we're all straying we're all subject to temptation from the demons and from pleasures and we're all subject to confusion and that includes that includes the Apostles so there's going to be a lot of confusion and there to be a lot of opportunity for the Holy Spirit to move Christians individuals select Christians doesn't mean they're better people but just means those were chosen to illuminate some of these truth and to bring this organic growth of our understanding of the fullness of the truth of Jesus Christ to fruition in the Holy Roman Catholic Church that's that's the teaching of the church so you need to see it in that organic way with the cooperation of an all good and a perfect God a perfect God cooperating with a very very flawed and imperfect people that's the exciting part of the salvation history story yeah I love it man there's so much there's so many points I wanted it copy and say wait so let's stick to them the Marian thing okay so it's a growing deal right but you're saying that and and you know I can agree with what you're talking about but so go with the Marian things when were those nailed down around what time they're before up to the marriage when was that an official 1950 1950 the Assumption yeah okay all right so you're saying that that dogma that doctrine has it's traced back to there's no private revelation come I didn't come up with it so that little bit of history that bit of truth was passed down from the apostles almost 2,000 years for it to show up and where where is the document edition did they find did they go and dig something up and find on the tablet somewhere that Peter rose somehow how if we have this tradition going back to the Apostles did they have missed something that significant and it wasn't told in the first second century and passed down why did it take almost 2,000 years for this to show up well it's a tradition it's it's a tradition that's always been there but it doesn't you know hasn't always been there because it wasn't there before 1950 no no the tradition the tradition was there the belief was there but it wasn't formally defined and automatized is there any trace of that that you can trace back to of course nice yeah me of course of course it's it's everywhere throughout the history of the church otherwise it wouldn't be defined I can give you I can send you documents and I can I mean if you want if that's the verification that's what I'm saying that's it looks we're this thing pops up after thousand years is that something that's been floating around all that time and finally I came down and said okay we're gonna we're gonna say this is this is right of course and what what caused them to finally come around and say in the case in the case of salvation thing right if I if I reject any of the dogmas I'm in trouble right so they're important and not to make an official dogma so why in the heck would you wait 2,000 years if it's all even there to nail it down like that I don't because it's it's a there's a bottom-up pressure from the lady in the case of the Assumption there was a bottom-up pressure people bishops were coming to the Pope and it was I was correct it was defined in 1950 but people were coming to the public the bishops were coming to the Pope and saying that our priests are being told by the laypeople that they want this to be finally defined because it's a popular devotion it's been it's been celebrated as a cooperative devotion traditionally anyway but there's there's a an outcry from the people from the bottom up that they want to see this formally defined because they love the mother of God and because there's pressure there's pressure from those outside of the Catholic faith and so they want to have the comfort of the definition right so there's pressure that comes from the bottom and then it trickled up to the Pope and he said ex cathedra he defined it I think it's the maybe the second or the third ex cathedra definition of dogma that we have in the history of the Catholic Church as far as I know and he defined it because of the bottom-up pressure to please the people because they were crying out for this for this Dogma to be defined even though it had been a tradition since the beginning and it had been part of the you know the the devotion the popular devotion since the very beginning and it's it's formalized in many different churches of the West and of the East that's another thing you need to look at the treasures of the East were also you know incorporating a lot of these merry and devotions yeah and I think there's a good reason for that the the East and the West both go back a lot further than any Protestant denomination does and they both cling to - these marian devotions right so we need to we need a really patient approach to looking at the dogmas finding out why why it was defined what basis they had to define at what sort of justification did they have what kind of arguments did they have and then you can dismiss all of that because once it's defined none of the arguments are protected infallibly from from error so all of the reasoning all of the argumentation that's all this is completely beside the point once it's been defined and the reasoning and the argumentation all the historical stuff is very very secondary it's the Holy Spirit that allows the church to define dogmatically these these eternal truths and all of the argumentation and the scholarly worship research they're not protected from errors so it's it's an it's a very interesting mindset to have as a Catholic where we've on the one hand we value argumentation scholarship theology and all the sort of archeological findings that support this teaching or that but they are all completely secondary to the movement of the Holy Spirit which allows the church to discover these unchanging truths so when they when it comes time to drop the hammer on that specific thing like that's because to me like no offense but that sounds like politics like the way people are putting pressure on the game he's like okay fine what we'll drop the hammer that but you're saying but it was the Holy Spirit that finally led cause you said it's like the pressure the people I didn't say lead I said alone is a big there's a there's a key distinction between leading and allowing the Holy Spirit allowed the church to define that it didn't lead the it didn't necessarily lead the church to define that it allowed by Church a big distinction but the definition comes from the Holy Spirit right yeah it's called Almighty the church is the mystical body of Jesus Christ who is going incarnate so it was revealed by the Holy Spirit to these guys that whatever time on any of these doc dogmas no no no no no no no no no it was revealed it was revealed before the of Saint John the Apostle and then it was discovered by the church and the Holy Spirit allowed the church to define it because the Holy Spirit protects the church from teaching formerly teaching error concerning faith and morals but it was revealed during the time of public revelation which was before the death of the last apostle that's very clear and you need to emphasize that you need to really clarify that in your mind please yeah because I mean then you kind of be a contradiction because it would be revelation by the Holy Spirit revealing ok you can do this later on yeah because the so the guys prior to 1950 they didn't know whether or not she was oddly assumed or immaculately conceived I mean you could go either way they didn't know didn't have an official stance it was it like if they were given permission like whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven it is it possible to any of these dogmas are wrong that you would still be no standing you'd still be sinning not to follow it because you're just supposed to submit to the power structure no no the Church teaches that these dogmas are contained already they're revealed by God in the secret deposit of faith before the death of the last apostle so that's there's no possibility that it's an arbitrary decision that the church makes and then the Holy Spirit puts a stamp of approval on it and then it's retroactive Lee true that's not the way it works I don't know you know you I'm not trying to be mean it it looks yeah like politics it looks like it's arbitrary it looks like they're kind of making it up as they go along yeah I I'm you know I would be happy if that's oh my god chose to run his church to say look whatever the church decides and put my stamp of approval on it and then it's retroactive Lee true like that's the way history unfolded I would be perfectly nobody innocent I would be perfectly happy if that's the way that God chose to do it but my church teaches me that that's not the way that God chose to do it the way my chief my church teaches me that the way God chose to do it is to reveal all of the saving truths all of the essential saving truths before the death of the last apostle and then the church is unfolding and understanding that and heretics come along and then the church opposes the heresy defines the truth and the Holy Spirit allows them to discover these truths but it's not necessarily leaving them I think the Holy Spirit is leading all men of good will the Holy Spirit is leading all men of good will I think the Holy Spirit is leading us in a certain way but not in this way that you're imagining where the Holy Spirit is saying okay you're the Pope so I'm gonna like show you stuff no I don't think it I don't think it works like that Wow and one question I've been wanting to ask me too when they were ordering like when the whole Protestant thing was going on and they were like burning people at the stake do you when that was coming from the top the Pope's and stuff was that a moral thing for them to do was that was that right for them to teach from the top down that that's how you deal with people with dissenting views as tournaments take or torture them you know where that's not my reading of the his you're talking about I talked about the Inquisition are we talking about well a lot of the the Protestant guys were being who are translating and like young boost you know the who cites those guys like all these little people who sprung up you know when the Catholic Church was in full power and authority a lot of these guys were you know burned at the stake for heresy Martin Luther was they wanted to kill him but they didn't find him do you think that that was a justified thing like should is there the time when the church taught that you know heretics are to be extremely there's no Dogma there's no Dogma about that so it's subject to error you know that's that's a matter of discipline like a hair a heresy is a dangerous thing and in the Old Testament God no he said if anyone tries to lead you after another God you kill him even if he's your best friend or if there's a there's a law that says if someone even your friend or family member tries to lead you to go after another god you're you should be the first one to bring him out to be stoned to death so do you think that the church has that kind of authority why or why not well I mean that the people the people in that in authority in the church in the hierarchy they're free to make mistakes and they're free to all of God's will and to apply God's justice right and that might involve self-defense and that might involve just Wars and that might involve you know a sort of holy righteous anger against Satan and his demons and it might involve at the same time and it might involve making a whole lot of mistakes based on pride and confusion and being led astray by the demons so there's nothing infallible in policies surrounding those sorts of particular details there was nothing enshrined in Dogma because there's nothing in the sacred deposit of faith that could that we could possibly enshrine dogmatically to say kill your enemies right there's nothing there's nothing in the sacred deposit of faith that would justify making that dogma even if someone wanted to if a pope wanted to make that as Alma they couldn't because it's not in the sacred deposit of faith so it's going to be left up to us as fallible men to use our prudence and our you know our discernment and to prayerfully make decisions about how to fight off our enemies and how to turn the other cheek and all those sorts of things is very messy messy situation I'm just very happy and thankful that I don't have any power I have zero power I have zero Authority about zero responsibility and I wouldn't have it any other way because it's a burden and it's to those whom much is given much is expected and what does it say in the Bible about don't become a teacher because more will be required of you what do you ever that oh yeah dad James yeah that you've got it that or you know you'll be a stricter judgment as applied to you thirty other people that's why I always make a point to say what does the church teach because I don't want to teach anything I don't have anything to teach I just point people to the church and if you don't think the Holy Roman Catholic Church is the one true church just send me the website of the one true church and that'll be easily and quickly resolved right but no one no one has ever sent me the website of the one true church that Christ built right it's but I have the URL of the Holy Roman Catholic Church the Holy See and those who oppose the Church of Christ are unable or unwilling to provide any alternative which i think is very very telling but as far as are you gonna get in your car and start driving yeah I have to I have to start rolling good do hands-free and yeah for sure you're gonna be okay oh yeah okay so what about how the eternal torments of Hell can you tell me your perspective on that how what have you been exploring reading and thinking about with respect to help okay well yeah I guess that you had you haven't published your thing yet but Chris day I listen to his debates and I went into this debate it says like the hell debate I went into it thinking like all this heretics gonna get smashed who sang beliefs and basically annihilation or it's called I'd like the phrase conditional immortality but then listening to those debates and the scriptural case that this guy made it was just so airtight I was just I was convinced so basically I believed in conditional immortality which means that because there's some Bible verses that explicitness and it's a principle that I think that I can point out in Scripture over and over again that the gift of God the gift from God is eternal life but the wages of sin is death so I believe that there's the second death everyone's gonna die the first time in the flesh and then there's gonna be a resurrection resurrection of the just now paradise and then the resurrection of the wicked to destruction and when it says second death to death that means two died i immortality is a gift that only comes to the faithful and even if you're alive immortality of the soul you're alive forever even in hell you're still a lie forever so I don't think that the Bible teaches that there are some verses that in order to sound like they support that but I think if you look at like a bunch of these versions and context you see that that the wicked are like chaff that are just burned out generated you know the books are open and it's just a painful execution and it's lights out for God's enemies okay um does this give you comfort that if you do end up in hell it won't be quite as bad as you thought I don't know really well I would rather be annihilated I guess but and yeah be slowly you know tortured to death or whatever like the Dante's version of hell whatever the heck that I mean but a violent execution doesn't sound good either but sure I mean I think I know where you're going with that lecture I think I'd probably pick that over a journal conscious torment for sure but that's not why I'm I've always believed in the traditional view of health the Catholic view of L like some know Chris dates arguments aren't emotional arguments it's all scriptural but of course private interpretation I know but that's that's where I'm at I really think that that's what the Bible is talking about talks about destruction and yeah the the branches in Christ who are gathered up or who are the fruitless branches that are gathered up and thrown into the fire you know it's like all of these images of things are thrown into a fire in Jim yeah I remember now do you remember the image of God as a bush that's burning you remember that yeah with that well is this yeah do you member the bush I don't think that has anything to do well well it's the same fire it's the same fire same fire and how how would you make that algiere or comparison there because there are two fires there's only one there's only one fire yeah it says God is an all-consuming fire I think James says an all-consuming fire now like he'll burn you know either it's consuming love or it's gonna burn you up but go ahead yeah I mean I don't see the connection there well I mean let's just assume for the moment that you're correct and Total Annihilation awaits the the reprobates okay what implications does that have for your Christianity one of the most important implications that that new understanding of Hell has for your your understanding of Jesus Christ and His Church and salvation and everything else that's important for a Christian well hey life I believe journal conscious torment or conditional immortality that makes absolutely no difference in my day-to-day life it doesn't help me be more or less holy you know or want Jesus more but I do think that it's it's a more it's more just now like it gives me a better picture of God cousin kind of weird to think about that God would want to just do that because I mean if you think about it you know if someone heals a loaf of bread cut off his hand let him go that's a huh that's the harsh penalty but I can say okay cool I could live with that or do a jail sentence for a while and they let you out sure no but if you kill somebody cuz your life will be taken away from you so there's different punishments but if a guy kills somebody but do you think it's just I think a firing squad just can't just cut off his head whatever and beat the crap out of them then kill them whatever maybe but just slowly torture that guy to death and keep alive for six years and torture them in a torture chamber would you what do you think that's just that form of it evil torture chamber type of thing that justice it's not something it's not something that God when I was positively God does not positively will that anyone be lost right it's not it's not that glad to be fully in the sky right right but he would be the one that would be torturing the people in the torture chamber for all eternity so he would have a hand in it you know I mean it would be that he would be that guy he is the reality that they are willfully falling away from because of their pride and self-love he is the one reality which they have turned their back on and their suffering as a consequence of that he does not positively will that but he allows that because we have free will he has to be loved freely and he's not going to make a bunch of love robots and he's not going to rape his creatures he's going to ask his creatures and invite his creatures to freely choose with their free will and their reason to return the love that that same love that he shows to them you know and those of us who say yes we'll be learning how to love here below and forever and all for all eternity we'll be getting looks are closer to that love and becoming integrated with that love and being deify it becoming one with that life of the Trinity so the opposite scenario is not complete annihilation the opposite scenario is falling away from everything that's good and just suffering with everything that is a lack of good and the complete absence of love is the greatest torture probably the greatest tortures of hell is that lack of love right it's not it's not that your balls are in a vise yeah so tortured with hot pincers and you're on fire forever just burning I think that's all very figurative language and it is eternal conscious torment it's not bad it's not because it can't be outer darkness and flames at the same time because it's obvious poetic language if yeah they're to be in that state forever but still use the absence of all things that are good right life is a good thing so if you're still alive you're conscious you're aware that's life you're alive a good thing I think that without God you're unmade and it's your right to absence of all goodness all good things and that's very that's life itself is a good thing yeah the first princess yeah the first principle is life and to be falling away from God is to be primarily to be falling away from life and that's why it's referred to as that's why it's referred to as death because you're falling away from life but that fall that fall unfortunately doesn't end it's an ongoing all and that's what's so horrifying about it really well I think so I know like Hellfire preachers and things like this it's effective in a certain way to kind of make you afraid but you've been in your own selfishness you're like oh yeah I don't want to go there so I'm gonna fake it for Tim like I love God and and it's like how you said God God's not gonna force himself upon you but it's like love me or I want you to choose to love me but he's got a gun to your head or worse than that not even a gun to your head cuz that would be annihilation it's like hearts gonna slowly dip you into this this pot of boiling oil and then I'm going to revive you and then just keep on doing that unless you love me that's that's not free choice that's a threat do this or else I'm gonna cute I'm gonna I'm gonna torture you hurt you unless you love me so I think it's more of how I'm seeing it now is you're missing out on that great good thing like he's that he's the best thing with God and to be alive in God and like you said that growing tour that's that's that's amazing ever okay good that you'd be missing out on or don't choose to reject them God's gonna fail clearly projected life unmake you gone don't get that eternal rewards so that is your eternal punishment meaning that it's there's no way back after a certain part you're gone you missed out on the beat that's out on the the joy and the bliss and all of these things that's where like like irresistible grace not like the Calvinist say it's irresistible grace like can't resist God like he's got your arm getting behind your back kind of irresistible but I think of it as like irresistible like you're starving to death for whatever you're within of your life and then someone puts your favorite meal in front of you and it puts a pile of dung on the other side it's like what are you gonna choose no it's are you gonna choose the dung are you gonna choose the delicious food that's the greatest good that's what his kindness and love is so irresistible and draws you in like you're going to walk that you're gonna go for that not like the threatening type of thing I don't know but I could be wrong yeah but Liam would if you were to enter into full communion with Rome would you abandon your conditional immortality doctrine I would have yeah absolutely I mean I becoming a pop community but then I'm going to forget all this other crap and just okay you know if I if I can trust and verify I know that the Imaginarium Basu they say they are and they actually it's not just men getting together making out so the group taking the votes politics this map I can really see that no it I would drop all of my argument yeah you know all my private interpretation I would just I don't know what I would do because and that's all I was asking you about the the heretics being killed it's not just to try and nail you on Catholicism I really wonder about because if if it's true and there's no salvation outside of the Catholic Church then anyone reaching something gonna be close to hell fishing fishing you know should they be killed no no I mean the Protestants did the same thing John Calvin killed a guy who had a person killed because the street robbed reaching against the Trinity burn you know there are burning people at the stake they were doing the exact same thing the Catholics were trying is that just that justifies it so the real thing I don't know but but the church maybe they didn't make a dogma about it but they were definitely supporting that type of behavior for a long time yeah in many cases if you read the history books in many cases it was a question of treason treason it was a government decision to try these people up for treason and all these councils political politics behind that - nailed down so that we can have solidarity in this kingdom that's going to be Christian now so I mean was it that important that these things got nailed down or did politics get in there and just everything and they got away from what they were supposed to be doing which is the true Catholic and Apostolic Church but they know when they win it became the official state religion did they just get corrupted and it's just like that's some people's argument - I don't know I don't know how to know that that it's as you say and the Magisterium is legit and all that stuff legit I would drop everything and follow him I was no questions I was just good and that's why I fired you so much I love it I want to be like you I grew up but I just I don't know you're not helping could be could be pride it could be whatever but I don't think that it is I just I have to be convinced of it know in my heart that that's what it is but when I look at it I just see I see and I see people I see politics I see things that shouldn't be there you know and like it shouldn't be a vote man help I just don't get that like oh kind of been calling sick that day that 100 guys voting so I guess they'd help take it up I want the security of the Magisterium I want all of that stuff I just missed all seems like you said it's very messy and I just don't understand him like you said it was this organic thing but now it's just very rigid and nailed down now we have all these dogmas and you plus this plus that I mean there's no room for growth out I don't know it seems like at first it was an organic thing you could believe different things to be okay like you didn't have to leave and start burying dogmas or you could believe in it we could all fellowship together and four brothers and we love each other but then you nail it down and you're like okay now there's division you guys are heretics we're gonna burn you but a week before they made that decision they could be brothers I just don't understand you know what I mean yeah so yeah so let's let's try to play a little thought experiment let's say that I love it let's say I belong to a false religion and somehow Christianity is true but Catholicism is not the true true church so what am I missing what can you entice me with so that I would leave this safe what I think is the safety of the church to go outside into the wild rain as the floods are approaching what what can you allure me with to leave me out of the safety of Noah's Ark from my perspective what can you lure me out with it's like for example Oh David you can have a lot more fun as a non-athlete Christian because the morality is not as strict on sexuality or whatever like just try to well like if I was trying to decaf like you yeah and make you a Protestant or just just just just saying look David I'm not a Catholic but I'm a Christian and I think that this is the place to be and you're gonna be better off being like me being a non Catholic Christian even though you don't have a specific label for your form of Christianity but you could say David you can have more of x y&z if you join me in my Christianity because in your Catholicism you're limited by all this rigid man-made politics baloney right so what kind of arguments could you make like what could what do you have it better than what I have in the church what do you have outside of the church that I have that I don't have because I'm inside the church it'd be hard like if I was trying to who are you with Pharisee or but you know which I don't think that I would do it no but you don't think you're inheriting I don't think I don't think yeah but I don't think that you have anything that I don't have that's the thing what I would say is you I can have fellowship with anyone who calling on the name of Christ and knows God and I think has a true a true disciple of Christ whether or not you know whether or not they agree on certain the Trinity offered the Trinity that even the Trinity I think I think if someone is confused on that it's a confusing thing I don't think if you asked Peter hey to find the Trinity he'd be like what are you talking about he would have he would have no clue what you're talking about Peter had no idea I guarantee appalled in either you never even talked about and all the stuff he's just like Oh awesome god I mean I don't think any of those guys could have defined it that's why it took a few hundred years from there nail it down and say well what's going on here um but what I what I think I don't think you're miss anything because I believe that you know God I really do think that about you so I wouldn't worry about you man I think that you I think what you found in Catholicism is beautiful how God's doing I love it I love hearing you talk about it I love it blesses me I mean you have real wisdom I think that God coming through that church and I don't think there's anything wrong with it okay um I want to I want to find out what something which I don't think you're right about everything so I would just say I don't have anything wouldn't have because because believe it or not these all these Protestant churches they're just as not all of them I mean of course there's total apostate funds that are saying you can be a homosexual and whatever and whatever you want to be marry your dog and you can lesbian pastor and be an atheist and still be a go in heaven I don't buy any of that stuff but um I mean the Puritan churches that I was going to there they're just as strict they're just as dogmatic they're just as ha based or more so than even though they're all about grace but at you style of dress or this and that you don't believe in five points of Calvinism the predestination blow-up about your hair taking your foot in your worshipping a false god you're going to help some of the hardcore guys that like that so they're just as dogmatic over what they've come up with themselves in their councils done so I wouldn't say that it's free to man you can get away with more I don't think so I mean that's not what I've heard but um I don't know man how but I mean it but if I was I don't know it's hard to hard to say oh let me just put it to you this way I believe that I am within the safety of Noah's Ark do you think that you are safely within Noah's Ark kiss or no yes okay good I hope so and what reasons do you have to believe that reasons I have to hello it's the gospel you don't try citizen phone that we're a disciple of Christ and that's what puts us in the boat I think but does that mean that just because I need some confession of faith at anytime or got baptized and I can empower the hell I want no that's not a disciple of Christ I think if you are a true disciple of Jesus Christ Eve's that he's the son of God because Paul lays it out in the Corinthians 15 this is the gospel Anita says I Christ died and was raised on the third day then did see the father and then he's coming back I believe all that and then it's the way you have to follow the narrow path there on that path you're in that's why that's my security is just the promises that are found in Scripture about those who believes in Christ lays out the way says people if you love one another as I have loved you have eternal life give others have you as you've been forgiven I think withhold forgiveness if you don't follow the narrow path there's a bunch of ifs ditional you know very % of the time in a and every individual it's a very very rosy and optimistic picture do you share that Catholic point of view in terms of salvation being offered to everyone that thinking to write you know but before that it was not so rosy that's one of the changes but I'd say that just came to mind you know before that it was like no not a baptized member of the Catholic Church that knows no hope of salvation and the Second Vatican careless has no they're you know Protestants are separated brethren and stuff before that it was no foreign mathema if you say grace alone you are Anathem who are gone to hell maybe you believe these things but now it's not the same so that's changed man no it really is a change no it's a change in emphasis oh it's only a change in emphasis right because cursed damned to hell yeah there are brothers though but are they still cursing down to hell they're just our brothers who are cursing them down yeah it's an objective it's an objective you need three criteria to commit mortal sin one is grave matter that can never change so it is a damnable sin to be a heretic right but you also need you also need free consent of you will and full knowledge of your intellect so there's three there are three stages to qualifying for mortal sin they have never changed it's just that the emphasis now is on the the ignorance the invincible ignorance of those who by no fault of their own are born into agenda born into a tradition and the culture which is not Catholic which is anti-catholic by no fault of their own they're born and raised in some sort of Westboro Baptist Church and I think that all gays are going to hell and by no fault of their own that's how they're raised and they don't know the Catholic Church they don't know Jesus Christ but a by no fault of their own they are straying from Jesus Christ and that first criteria criterion is their the objective matter is there they are objectively speaking they're a heretic they have straight to Jesus Christ but they don't have the full knowledge and if they had the full knowledge they would still need to give full consent of their will so it's a question of Education it's a question of reminding once again Jesus Christ reminding us with our feeble minds and with our weak memories and our weak wills reminding us of who he is and who is church's and a lot of people are out of touch with that through no fault of their own that the point that was emphasized by Vatican 2 there's no change it's only a change in emphasis with with the challenging times the church is saying look it's not like it's not like the people that are breaking away now are fully educated Catholics like Luther who consciously took moved away these people are born into a tradition which is now hundreds of years old right very different and I'll buy that but that's what's going on that's still I'm screwed that's born into Catholic family that sucks but anyways I do I think that that sounds awesome and just that God would work on an individual basis the guy no the tribesman out in the middle of nowhere he's never heard of the gospel knows nothing of our gods and his worshipping a tree but he's trying to do the right thing and following the light that God has given to all of us that content stuff I sure as hell hope so that that guy's gonna be ok yeah it's like God is a just judge and we trust and then always gonna be good and always gonna do what is just I don't see how anyone can say that it's just that that did you know mr. probable guy and knows in the rain forest somewhere is gonna just be born have no opportunity to hear the gospel like you said invincible ignorance and then just be like thrown into the you know to you just born for fodder for the fires of hell you know no I've heard that stuff and I think that's total that's not just it's not justice counter to so I sure hope that's yes I do agree with that that's why I'm telling you well then we're the same then you know like yeah I wouldn't I wouldn't say a nontrinitarian is going to hell if he's looking at Scripture looking at things the best he can and he's not trying to say I'm gonna be a heretic but he's just like really convinced or he was born in that culture or something like that like he said or as mine just gets twisted up just dumb like me you know I just I just get twisted up in this stuff and I'm really thinking about it and I really want to do what's right but this right so how can I go against my conscience and do it because in the Bible it says if you go against your conscience even if it's not sin what you're doing and you're not sure of it and you do it anyways it's sin for you see that's like a subjective thing so that's tricky and someone like me is dumb I'll just tie myself up for not saying well is it or isn't it and I just back away you know that's why I'm kind of backing off the I'm gonna the steps you know think with the Catholic Church I just don't know I don't know how can I can jump in but I don't know about anything so yeah do you think that God would incarnate and build a church and then promise that it's better that he goes away and sends his Holy Spirit and that that Holy Spirit would lead his church into all truth do you think that that is going to play out in such a way that we do not have access to the essential saving truths or do you think that on the contrary that God has a plan for that where the Holy Spirit leading is church into all truth entails a certain guarantee a certain certitude that we can have that we have found the Church of Christ and that we can join the Church of Christ and that we can obey the Church of Christ and that we can have that security do you which of those two scenarios sounds more likely based on what you read about the Ascension of Jesus Christ into heaven well I absolutely think that we would have to have access to that or I mean we're screwed say - I'm not going to leave you orphans yeah we have the Holy Spirit but that's just the thing no and he said the Holy Spirit would lead truth because you know that's what maybe doubting the Protestant thing in the end with is because if they all have the Holy Spirit nobody who agrees on anything it's supposed to be where's the unity where's this holy where's this apostolic Catholic need reversal truth yeah we'd have to have access to it but that could be interpreted another way name and think that yes of course and what did he say when he ascended he said you know the the Great Commission Matthew 28 or whatever when he says go baptize all nations keep them to observe what I've commanded oh and baptize them until I come back basically him butchering that but you know that was the Great Commission so I'm saying prove that those guys carried out their mission they went and taught people about Christ taught them the words of Christ baptized them and they baptized other people may be baptized other people and it just spread worldwide okay I'm up for a bunch of extra stupid stuff and that doctrines and churches and divisions formed after that but I think that that issue of saving truth no no Jesus crisis and his message and of being obedient to him which is why you know the scriptures are so important they're important they're not Authority I'm not saying it but I mean it was a good good deal that they wrote their stuff down and passed it around so that we can and obey the teacher prize that way I think that job very clear in the Gospels that it's faith and obedience to very simple commands the commands of love Jesus summed up he said this is what I command you they love one another as I have loved you that you be one as the father and I are one you are to be one I'm going to be in the father and I'm going to be you and we're all just this big oneness thing this body Oddie of believers family I think that you can have that family with or without that rigid structure or institutional idea of church like what your but I think I think what you're saying the idea of what a church is as an organization or an institutional thing I think in a familial way I can spread the same way and we're just meeting in houses and breaking bread together and loving on each other I think that that's just that gives me just as much you know like you look and act that's what you see cuz people don't know the people's house and Sharon jeez if they believe oh my gosh holy spirit came baptized and bam there's a church in that guy's house now and they all meet together and not I mean okay let me ask you a question and it's spreading of it okay let me ask you a question you've mentioned during this interview and in other talks we've had that you said I'm tied up in not to get confused about doctrine and I go back and forth and you know you certain you have a certain level of anxiety when it comes to ecclesiology where's the true church and what are the true doctrines and this sort of thing okay I don't have that I have I have peace and I have comfort and I have the reassurance just by just by virtue of the fact of being a Catholic and belonging to the body of Christ I have a lot of peace joy I'm very calm and serene and what I believe I'm not twisted up in knots even with local or sort of contemporary events like when Pope Francis I'm completely calm and tranquil in the face of all that makes sort of all the nonsense people getting frost up over Pope Francis on the right or those on the Left who think he's not left enough whatever I have a tranquility and a peace because I belong to the Church of Christ you don't seem to have that so I want you to address this disparity between our two positions what is what can you explain that we're gonna have to do a party man I just got to the house oh boy here give me a boy get my can I bring my boy sure are you doing nice to see you nice to meet you what's your name haisa very nice to meet you how old are you wow you're a big boy for six he is a big boy yeah how tall are you Matthew I'm about six foot and how old is åsa he is six six foot well how tall how tall about four feet or so Wow big kid man he's a kid in the hypocenter they said ASA who's who do you love who loves you the most oh boom upset baby good answer that's right you believe in Jesus they said yeah Oh rats that's nice that's beautiful man so listen to wrap up I'm gonna just give you the last word if you want to say something or say say the final word or a little prayer whatever comes to mind and we'll wrap up like that okay and I can answer your question really quickly I was tied up in knots or because I was looking to men to be able to tell me what the truth is w

CVS Live Guest - 2020-01-24 - Nikola Krcic

so we are live I'm here with my friend Nick Chris ik if you want to introduce yourself Nick my name is Nick Korsak and how are you how are you doing I know I've had you on my pre-recorded show and it's always nice seeing you in the comments it's nice chatting with you once in a while on the phone what did you want to talk about with me here today well my favorite topic anything to do with the god especially you know it's a weird thing to me is I I'm not I'm not around many people I I don't know I won't take away the few that are there like my wife of course she know and I have my cousin Peter he likes to talk and my brother likes to talk about God as well and I have one cousin Johnny right but other than that like I am it's hard to find people that are they hold interested or that are willing to even talk about God it's it's weird a lot of people get like oh that's kind of private you know or that's kind of I don't know I you know I don't understand why you got to that point but that's kind of where it is with most people you know it's almost like your religion is just private you know let's not talk about it so yeah it's kind of weird to me yeah well I mean I all I all I really ever want to talk about is God religion and the Oder extreme you know philosophy ideas and stuff like that but most people are mired in politics and you know pop culture stuff like that I am really not interested I can enjoy you know I can enjoy conversations about anything as long as the person is excited but I don't have a lot to contribute it unless it's about first things and God and you know morality and stuff like that but I just don't have a lot to contribute I can contribute from my angle but my angle is always the same angle and it tends to be a bit of a conversation killer if you're bringing in the Catholic perspective right you don't you find mm-hmm I agree it's funny I'm kind of meeting new people too I'm kind of awkward because I don't I don't find interesting what most people talk about you know I mean most people you know like they talk about sports or they'll talk about movies or to talk about and again I could I mean I could talk about that stuff but only very little you know what I mean it's like and there so I'm kind of not the best you know person to talk to if I'm first meeting you it's very short very short you know yeah so maybe I'm the awkward one I don't know but I like to talk about the important stuff you know the stuff stuff that matters but yes so what even thinking about or what do you been praying about what do you been reading about what are you excited about with your faith journey these days I've been doing I've been enjoying the praying for everybody that needs it and not myself like I've almost been excluding myself totally you know and to me that's been that's been exciting almost like God is gave me the grace to be you know selfless and you know and not think about myself but I'm too busy thinking about whoever needs and whoever's having problems right now or trouble to remember to pray for them and I've been doing a lot of praying and and it's unbelievable how how we don't know and see what happens when we pray but if we knew I believe none of us would ever let one hour go by without praying you know I would say not even not even 10 minutes but but but I believe that it is like it's like the most important the most important and and and and the only way it's like if I try to call you without a cell phone it won't work right and this is and prayer is our cell phone directly to to the body of Christ so absolutely I mean I we're told to pray without ceasing to pray constantly and I'm always praying not I'm not praying well but to the capacity that I'm able to pray I'm always praying I'm always thinking about God and because I don't need to worry about God's salvation I tend to think about the salvation of myself and those who are close to me in space or in time and in any other way and so it's it's just a natural thing when you know when you know what ultimate reality is in terms of salvation history and our place in salvation history even though it's a bit vague and fuzzy and we see darkly as in a broken mirror as st. Paul says we we live in the obscurity of faith but we have at least we have the gift of faith even if we just have a small spark or a little tiny flame we can focus on that we can begin with that and we can start our journey toward toward God and toward heaven and here in this fallen world it's not easy there's lots of opposition I'm always surprised when people oppose such wholesome teachings for example when it comes to the issue of life I mean there's a lot of talk now with Trump doing his talk at the March for Life I'm just surprised that everyone isn't pro-life I just I don't understand how you could not be a pro-life but I'm very happy and excited that Donald Trump spoke at the March for Life what did you make of that not that we want to talk about politics but what did you make of that just writing it I actually I didn't see it I missed it I didn't see it yeah well it was a it was a nice it was a nice speech to life and every life is precious and he actually I don't know if he slipped up or if he he said it on purpose but he said that every human life is divine I think that might be putting a little bit in extreme terms but maybe there was a little confusion when he said that or maybe maybe he's really channeling something deep and mystical about divination and theosis and maybe he's been reading up a little bit on mystical Christianity but I'm not sure about that right right right yeah I missed it I missed this so I'm just too long for for some reason I never was and I'm not you know but my point was with the Catholic teachings are so wholesome and they're so universally valid across space and time with the Ten Commandments with the principles of life and you know the principles of freedom and even you know more sophisticated principles like the principle of subsidiarity in governance I think these are principles that stand withstand the test of time and that are that are good and universally valid and that could be appreciated so I'm just I'm always surprised when people have alternative points of view which fly in the face of well-established Catholic principles but that's maybe that's just me and maybe everyone maybe everyone with their worldview has their cherished set of principle dogmas axioms and I'm sure that's that's what it counts for a lot of the bickering on social media people do have a point of view and they like to you know suggest it I guess that's one word we could use suggest it to those around them that it's the best point of view and certainly you and I are guilty of that we think that our point of view our Catholic point of view is the best point of view right right right right right what do you think about so okay what do you think about abortion when it comes to the whole the big picture like for example I was trying to make sense of all of it like I pray and believe and think that those souls go straight into the arms of God and then I try to make sense of well what's Satan's agenda on this if they're shooting straight to heaven I'm like hmm I wonder what then he's getting out of it and then all that came to mind was God has a plan you know for each and every one of us and when when that child is aborted they couldn't they couldn't go out go through with their plan right so that just takes away our me saying it's happy to take anything away from God so he's happy to just take that away and that pleases him even though if that soul of that you know the baby goes straight into the arms of God into heaven what do you think about it yeah I mean I trust in the mercy of God so I don't worry about I don't really worry about anyone's salvation I mean the the extent that I worry about it really is just to pray for those who are still making their decision like they're still alive today but you know I don't worry about those who are already dead whether they were innocent babies in the womb or whether they were you know nasty characters from history like Hitler or whatever I don't worry about it but I trust in the mercy of God but everything everything is glorifying God and everything that happens everything that happens God allows to happen either he positively ordains it or he allows it so Satan is constantly chuckling to himself with all his little mini victories but he's also wincing in pain because when he really steps back and looks at what's happening and in the in the war it might might seem like he's winning a few skirmishes here and there but in the big picture he's always losing he's always serving God's will this is the most frustrating thing about being the enemy of God is that it's a lose-lose situation and you can psychologically fool yourself in the short term into thinking yeah I got one over on God and I hurt one of his children but if you you know if you're an enemy of God and you think that way in the back of your mind always is that idea that gods a winner I'm a loser and everything I do is serving God's plan and really this is a this is a futile battle I'm a loser you know so there's a very thin and false happiness that accompanies all of the enemies of Christ in this church and people are aware of that to greater and lesser extents obviously and in the case of Satan I think he is acutely aware of it and I think he's suffering suffering a lot with every so-called victory that he that he has there's always a price to be paid with every victory he personally pays a price every time but he's just compulsively and hatefully harming others and in the process harming himself because he can't help himself he's not he doesn't have the freedom that we have to repent him to go to go back to God so it's it's tragic on so many levels and it's like one of those fractal images where it's just at the pattern within the pattern within the pattern within the pattern and if you look at abuse in this world like parent to child child to grandchild and you see the way that sexual abuse for example is passed on in this habitual pattern because people want to heal those wounds here in this fallen world among humans we have a chance to heal but Satan and his demons they don't have a chance to heal but they're still caught in that fractal image where it's the pattern within the pattern within the pattern and they just can't get out they can't get healing they can't get us they can't get satisfaction because ultimately only God satisfies and they know that and so it's it's a horrible horrible situation or you know you know well um I I kind of feel like therefore I kind of see it like that for like um we're saying thinks he's getting somewhere even in the church you know if there was a few you know priests or even Pope that let's say they had an evil agenda or whatever like he thinks he's actually getting some we're forgetting I guess God has God is in control you know um that actually brings me to a point that I wanted to mention okay what what do you think about the overall cuz you you're familiar with seed of accont ISM and all that so so what do you think about Vatican 2 do you think there's things there that these people these Cedarburg contests are veering away from the church and all this do you think there's something there not that their position is correct but more that is there something there since Vatican 2 that some evil has crept up and twisted things around and and the devil thinks he's getting somewhere right now and all that but God is still in control he's just allowing this to play out and like for example the Third Secret of fátima and all that ties in like what do you think about all that as a whole is there something there well I mean there's plenty of opportunity for those who want to stumble to stumble I mean this is why we refer to Jesus Christ as the stumbling stone and like I think about the Scriptures like there's plenty you there's plenty of fodder in the scriptures to act as stumbling stones if you want to if you want to stumble you can stumble right and the same thing with the ecumenical councils and they are but they are one of the manifestations one of the four manifestations of the church's infallibility ecumenical councils so I submit to the Second Vatican Council I was just reading the documents today they're beautiful documents do they contain ambiguities because of the politics left-right and all that nonsense yeah of course there are ambiguities there but it God is able in His infinite wisdom and power to communicate the essential saving truths and to clarify essential saving truths through through the midst of all of that left-right politics nonsense which colors everything right in our at least in our contemporary world and since the certainly since the 50s and 60s and so yeah I see the I see the ecumenical councils as divinely protected from teaching error concerning faith in morals and I was just reading some of the documents today and I have always found them beautiful and edifying and very traditional obviously because we can't break with tradition that's that's what the church is the church is in defective alit will never break from tradition if it does then it's not a church so yeah I think there's plenty of fodder there if you want to read into the ambiguity and start a little fight with with the so called Novus Ordo Church you're free to do that that's the danger that's the danger of having free will is that you are free to make a fool of yourself and you are free to abandon Jesus Christ and His Church and you are free to call that movement the Catholic Church if you want to there plenty of people starting different religions and they're attaching the word Catholic to it right so I really there's nothing new Under the Sun there every ecumenical council had heretics before during and after the council that were claiming that they were holier than the Catholic Church and that they're they represent the one true religion the one true church so you can I did a meta at the pros and cons of set of account ISM if you haven't heard you can go and listen to it but it talks about one or two examples of different heresies for each of the ecumenical councils and how they thought them and only them thought that they were you know I love the video man that even the music you put to it was just I I love that one nothing good that was good that was really good so that's my main point that's my main point that there's nothing new Under the Sun if you want a stumble go ahead and stumble and you won't be the first you won't be the last and God will be waiting there for you to repent and come back to my it's just that simple it's there's nothing complicated what do you think about the Third Secret of fátima was there something there do you believe we've gotten them at the the right message or has ours is still hidden I don't know I don't really care I mean I trust the church and I'm not obsessed with any private revelation I put public revelation number one and a private revelation if it inspires me and I defies me as you know Lord and Fatima and de Guadalupe do and different you know all the approved apparitions do inspire make my faith and they do edify me and so I draw on whatever edifies me and I ignore whatever is controversial and conspiracy theories that are swirling around particularly in the Third Secret of fátima I just completely ignore it because I know that that's how Satan likes to get people in broiled in distraction I know that I know that some experience so just don't get embroiled I mean if you if you if there's something that's obviously Catholic in any private revelation that's been approved by the church run with it be inspired by it and let your faith be be built up by it otherwise if there's any doubt if there's any sort of hint that maybe this is a conspiracy theory I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole that's my personal opinion we got it yeah okay I when when you were they were thought that made me think of a question for you when you were when you still believed in evolution and you heard the anti-evolutionists you know did you think did you look at that as a conspiracy theory for the moment I never believed in evolution even as an atheist I never believed in it I just I just believed I just believed that it was the overwhelming consensus of natural science and isn't that amusing and isn't perplexing and I didn't feel compelled to commit to that I didn't feel compelled to say well okay it's the consensus therefore I have to believe it no I'm free I even as an atheist I knew that I was free and I distinctly remember being at a party in university when I was young and talking with friends and they were talking about how we evolved from apes and I said well I don't believe that you know and they all paused and looked at me like I was an ape but I just I didn't subscribe to it I mean that's the I knew that it was the dominant hypothesis or the dominant story but I just didn't have any good reason to buy it I mean I didn't have like oh I didn't I did I hadn't examined the evidence and concluded that I must believe it right and I'm not a biologist I was studying physics and I certainly didn't want to believe it it's not something I was ever predisposed to believe like oh goody I just you know I my ancestors are brutes it never it never ever appealed to me so I was I would know I would say that I never believed in evolution I don't know how many people today can say that especially atheists but that was the case for me no you could add me on the list too we used to make fun of it in my household I remember since you know I was five years old and my older brother hearing that and I was laughing about it not that I knew too much when I was five but what I'm saying is we never believed that in the house you know what I mean it is funny it was always funny yeah the atheists were something to laugh at for us and the evolutionists or something to laugh at for us always though yeah so what other related topics do you want to talk about because I know a lot of people since I sort of came out of the closet as a young earth creationist is that I did subscribe to that I did fully endorse back in June or July of this year I fully endorse the young Earth Creationism as you know and a lot of people come forward and say well then you must believe in the firmament and the you know the fixed lights in the Stars and you know in a sky and the waters above and the flat earth and this and that the other thing and a GOG o centrism and everything else so are there any related topics that you want to explore and and to question me about yeah yeah overall I just believe that there is a lot that we don't fully understand and I've learned my learned we can't trust the be the people in charge the scientists what they say really we can't really trust them too much um you know starting by evolution you look and you know they'll tell you evolution is a fact right but so I feel like there's a lot of that I feel like at the end of the day we don't know they don't know exactly how this or how this earth works they don't know you know they don't understand it as much as they claim to understand it right they don't ascend when it comes to the firmament yeah I believe there's a there is a firmament but what is it exactly you know what I mean like like we don't know but here's here's my belief I believe that the stars and the Sun and the moon that we see is not as far as they say it is distance wise I believe it's a lot closer and and I at the end of the day I just believe in trust what God says right so it's kind of like I kind of will search the Scriptures more for it though I know there could be error in my personal interpretation but I do I do see that something something is going on - where - where either we're not being told it's being hidden or they simply don't know you know they don't know and you know they're acting like they know or whatever but but it's kind of like we don't know exactly what what this earth is how it looks or I mean you know like fully it's funny it I kind of don't know where to start because it gets kind of there's a you gotta touch on a lot of ends - to explain it correctly right so I'm not gonna go into the whole thing here right but at the end of the day I say that everything we see in the sky is this appears to be smaller smaller than the earth the earth is a earth is is its it it's it's the only land out there it's the only you know um terra firma is the word they use like the stars we see in the sky is not terra firma that you could kind of go land on it'll be more to how the bible explains them and i think it's like in a way angelic form or something but this is my belief you know and and i think the earth is it it's almost like oh if you want to look at it as a realm the earth is a realm this is all that is and you know it's not it's not an empty vastness of space with all kinds of stuff and there's nothing bigger than the earth except God as is my belief so I mean I know that's a whole other topic you know and whatever but that that's what I believe and are you open with that cuz I'm sure if you're open with it you're gonna get mocked and ridiculed even more than young earth creationists that's right I kind of don't like to be you know too open about it because I I know what happens I bye I was there I was I was I was on the other side and you know and I heard somebody saying Flat Earth it's like your brain does some it rejects it right away it's almost like hearing the sky is purple or you know it's like what the grass is black you know the gray it's like what it's an instant rejection but it's crazy when you when you look into the evidence here's all I've come to see Satan is at work and he's been working hard for a long time and he's working through the people that love money love fame love power okay so now if we now we can start to see who those people are you know what I mean like and and it's like it's so clear that Saints been working on the deception many deceptions for a long time and I feel like he's guiding into those you know the top the top dogs the top guys from scientists to hope whoever else but but at the end of the day it just brought me closer to God I trust God completely and I kind of don't I don't believe I'm all of what the scientists say and and what modern science says you know but but I won't get into it because it's it's it takes a while to see but the evidence the evidence actually it's it's insane the evidence is it matches what Ric actually you know like the Sun in the moon they look to be the same size um probably because they really are the same size now this is again my opinion and somebody hearing this could write me off as an idiot if you'd like you know what I mean but when you look at the evidence you'll be shocked like either jumping right into geocentrism you know it's like you look into the evidence it shows that this world is a geocentric world okay all the evidence actually says that it's all the theories that kind of don't say it but the evidence and the actual science experiments really say this place is not moving it's not spinning twirling swirling none of that's going on it's actually stationary and all the actual experiments said that you know so so so if one could believe that then it's kind of like okay well but nASA has pictures of the earth spinning right okay so it's kind of like you kind of got to see that that there's just some deception going on and that's all I could tell you and and and and I don't want to send no I I don't like to send nobody down no no conspiracy rabbit holes because at the end of the day it's not worth it we will know what we're supposed to know God will give us what we're supposed to know but I believe that there's a there's a deeper reason it's kind of like how evolution when someone believes in evolution it kind of like they don't realize how it pulls you away from God right evolution you start this discrediting the Bible just a little bit and you start giving your trust within science just a little more the white people don't see that happening but that's what's happening it's kind of goes same with the heliocentric model in a way they have told us they've gone into space and all they see is the blackness of space when the bible kind of actually says right above these closed stars and the closed sun and moon' all within the firmament it's all God after that it's all heaven that's his territory you know and it's kind of like so what does that do the heliocentric model you kind of put your trust more in NASA and in in modern science and then I said well we don't see God so and then it puts God so far away almost like imaginary you know you gotta just really imagine just you know to picture God somewhere we don't know where he is you know but within a geocentric model but but I feel the geocentric don't have the distance of the stars right you just put a firmament there and all everything is roughly the same distance away okay and right above that is our Lord our Lord's throne you know and and and it's funny when you look in the Bible I mean it does make it pretty clear the firmament is it's translated to a a molten mirror it says hard it's hard it's firm but that's where the word firmament comes from right it I mean it gets pretty specific you know it says it's it's it's like a mirror and a molten hard mirror and and when you start looking into those you're kind of like wow it kind of gets to you a little bit you know and makes you makes you think deep but but yeah but that's I mean I I believe the earth and the universe is about seven eight thousand years old and that's that seems ridiculous to 99.9% of humans walking the earth today but I would be open to geocentrism I don't happen to believe it but I'm open to it and the next you know the next step from that would be some sort of firmament and a flat earth and all that I'm not buying any of that yet but I haven't looked into it I'm open to everything I do you know I did I did interview Flat Earth run or did you listen to that episode oh I don't think so I don't think so you can check you know he painted a nice picture of the firmament and how Jesus is right above right above us so close and it's a it's that kind of proximity that attracts me to the you know this whole this whole vision that you have I don't buy it but I mean I haven't looked into it either yes it you've sent me lots of stuff I just haven't had time to look at it because I'm not interested if you said if you sent me stuff that I'm more interested in I would have looked into it by now but I'm just not that interested but I'm glad that some people are going down that rabbit hole as you say and you know I encourage you to follow the truth wherever it leads and I don't know how I don't know what sort of theological or Magisterial weight you have behind your geocentrism and behind your firmament stuff I mean obviously there are certain passages and scriptures that you draw on for for any of these theories but I'm not as motivated as I was with the young Earth Creationism so I'm just being honest with you I appreciate your the path you're going down but I'm just not there with you but you know anything could happen obviously I'm open I am very open I think I'm more open-minded than 99.9% of humans walking the earth today just because I put God first and whatever reality is I mean that's what it is I mean I have very little faith in you know secular science I have very little faith in it I think that there's you know we can make nice toys and gadgets and communication devices and stuff like that and that's all real and you know I studied quantum physics at university I have my name on a published paper in a reviewed journal a respectable quantum electronics journal I have experience with hard science I've worked at the Canadian Space Agency I've worked in hard science I respect hard science but I don't have a lot of faith in the politics that's and and the philosophy a bad philosophy that's connected with secular science I just don't have a lot of faith in it because we can be blinded by our by our assumptions and by our axiomatic fundamental positions that we take philosophically and then we interpret everything all of the data we always interpret all the data in a way that conforms with those fundamental assumptions so we're all guilty of that but once you become a monotheistic God first then that set of axioms is more wholesome and it's more well grounded and as Jesus Christ said if you don't build on the rock you're building on shifting sad you're doomed your house is doomed to fall right yeah yeah yep yep oh my they're so funny I thought you were a geocentric star you do you believe in the heliocentric model or or what well I never believed in evolution and I don't have I don't have a strong belief in the heliocentric model I mean I'm I have to admit that I do want to believe in Geo centuries and I just haven't looked into it right okay yeah I would prefer obviously I would prefer Geo centuries and I think it makes more sense from a Christian perspective it makes more sense right Emily am i excited about it a little bit am I excited enough to look into it not really I mean I looked at a couple of videos by that Catholic geo centrist who's very popular right now do you Catholic geo centrist I mean besides Robertson Janice Robertson Janice I was in that okay yep yep oh yeah and it's a that's funny I applaud him for shooting for that you know but it's funny how we were talking about the Flat Earth he hates the flatter that's so funny and and and and it's so funny here here's here's here's here's my here's my opinion on why he hates the flattered so much is because it's simple is because he has at least the scientific method you know geocentrism is a scientific method right and he wants to hold on to that the same way evolutionists want to hold on to the you know evolution theory because it's a scientific method they feel it makes them feel a little more like they're on the right side I guess you know what I mean and that's that's what I believe you know it's like that that Catholic that that believes in evolution you know he just feels better holding on to evolution because because of all the scientists that's what they say you know so yeah I am certainly not afraid to be considered a weirdo like I mean if I come to believe GOC the NGO centrist and that'll be a very easy pill to swallow for me very very easy the firmament and the Flat Earth that's gonna be I'm gonna be phoning you up right away and like oh my god this is exciting that would be next level that would be next level but I mean it is a nice idea I mean to you have that proximity with Jesus and Mary who are in the flesh and how far how far up do you think the dome is the firmament you know that I can't say I can't say I asked for this actual distance I I don't know I don't know but I'll tell you all the evidence kind of says this and the Bible the Bible kind of makes it pretty clear when you look into job and you look but here's the thing I hate the words flat earth I hate them words because I was there I know what that those two words do and I know what happens when somebody says they believe in a flat earth look at this right I mean it's like an instant reaction but I even know I could even see why their reaction comes about when you understand we were taught this our whole life right I mean the earth is around just like the grass is green this is what we've been taught right but when you actually see that there's a room there's room there for a full-out blown deception and no I'm not saying every worker at NASA is in on it you know to make a small analogy if if if McDonald's if McDonald's was poisoning us does that mean all of the workers are in on it no it's the ones that are just preparing the food right okay this would be the same method if when it comes to if NASA's in on anything it's just the top dogs the rest are working off of a a computer right a computer data and the computer tells them what reality is in a way you know what I mean you know the when they're told light-years are real thing well then guess what they believe light-years are a real thing you know what I mean but um but when you see there's X room for a deception there and it could be done and saying is that good you know here's all I want to say I don't care about flattered thought only I don't like them words but here's what I believe this place the devil is working hard to take anything away from us and our home here the way it'll Lord made this place is is is beautiful and he even wants to take that away so if he can he will you know and this place is not what we're being told from the size of the shape the angles from where we come from from where we're going when we die all of that has been sayings been working to take away from God so that's what I see so I that that's why that's why I trust God so much and it's hard for me to believe what what modern science says over all you know for sure so yeah I think we need to be skeptical I mean I have a lot of education in physics and that obviously is making it seem very unlikely that you know geocentrism or the firmament or whatever you want to call it flatter if any of that is true but I mean I had like I said I'm open and you know I'm open minded and I don't think you're a weirdo I mean if anything I sorta did it if anything I sort of envy the proximity that you have meaning I'm always looking for proximity but when you're speaking of not NASA it kind of reminded me of an old friend of mine Matt math Matthew of Boylan Matt power land you know of him he has no the Nassau Channel he's a stand-up comedian and an actor from Canada he moved down to the States but he's got a popular flat earth movement he claims to have pioneered the Flat Earth movement and there's lots of bickering in that community and he you know he admits to being a stand-up comedian an actor and an entertainer but he seems to also believe in Flat Earth and chemtrails and all this sort of thing and he he talked to these and claims to have worked for now so that he's the one that painted what looks like the globe image of the years the painting and you can check him out math power land or the Nassau channel or Matt Boylan you can look him up he was supposed to blown like he was supposed to come on my show but he hasn't contacted me actually he unfriended me on Facebook I'm not sure why you're gonna have to reach out to him and find out why but yeah there are a lot of conspiracy theories out there and there's a lot of disinformation and you have to be aware that Satan can deceive us but he can also deceive us by drawing us into wacky and weird conspiracy theories I wanna see right I want you to be very cautious be very cautious about that that angle of satan to like take you dude that's right no I'm actually they cut you off because I have to say this I'm actually done with the conspiracy theories right and it's like they're actually the worst they're worse because it puts this paranoia and fear in people right and this is what God saved me from when I told you I said that prayer yeah right okay no weapons formed against us will prosper what I was in the eight-month conspiracy theories on right okay and he said and I was so full of fear and paranoia and everybody is out to get me in and it's so funny though though there could be so much truth to that it don't matter because when you trust in God it who cares right who cares about who's after you or what's going on or what's the it's like when you trust God you no longer fear right and it's like so so I definitely don't recommend anybody to start searching conspiracy theories or or anything like that my point was when you look at the actual evidence I said reality and actual science experiment says something other than the heliocentric model and that's all I want to say because you know this Flat Earth thing it cause a lot of problems there's been divorces there's been literally you know because one person has discovered this truth that the earth is not what we're being told while the other has the you know I has that oh my god my husband my wife has gone mad you know what I mean and so it's like so I be where anybody from it and and and and and all it did for me to realize that this place could be not what we're being told right from spinning to the shape to the size to the distance of the stars to what they are to again where we came from and what all of that you know it's like this this this glass kind of shattered and I could see clear and all I could see is the Lord and they're kind of and to trust him through no matter what no matter what and it's it's the bet that's the best feeling in the world and like you know that somewhere where you could like you know saw where you get it lay down comfortably at night knowing you trust the Lord the most over everything it's that's a it's a very special and it's an amazing thing to have and and I I pray for anybody and everybody to have that you know it really is absolutely I mean that's that's my focus as well I mean that's why I don't get too excited about the evolutionists coming at me or you know because I've hosted this talk today they're gonna say uh we were right you're you're a wackjob you believe in the four-minute firmament and all that sort of thing but I mean I don't I don't fear any of that ridicule or disdain from from those who are enemies of Christ and His Church I mean it's it's like I've said once you know once you know who and what God is and once you know you have a relationship with him I mean you welcome suffering you welcome death you welcome and ridiculous or stained you welcome it whatever comes from God's hand and he's allowing everything the good the bad the ugly and everything in between if he doesn't positively ordained it he's allowing it for the highest good for your highest good and for my highest good how can you orchestrate it so that everything that happens is optimized not just for me not just for you not just for our loved ones not just for our enemies but for every human that ever lived how can he dynamically optimize everything to be perfectly maximally optimized for our own individual salvation and eternal happiness how can he do that we have no idea but we just need to trust that he's omnipotent he's infinitely wise and infinitely merciful infinitely just and he can do it I mean it's it's mind-boggling you know the Atheist can laugh but we'll we'll have the last laugh when we're up in heaven and we're enjoying God's God's life and hopefully the Atheist will be there with us right right right right right um to change the topic quick um what do you think have you ever read any of the Book of Enoch and do you know of any early church fathers if they believed then encoded The Book of Enoch I know I met a scholar who was specializing in the Book of Enoch I haven't read it I am interested in it because my guest but earth runner mentioned it he said I would really enjoy it because of the references to Noah and I'm a big fan of Noah and so I'm interested in reading it I don't think I even have it on my Kindle yet but I will after this interview I'll make a point of acquiring maybe a PDF copies slap it on my Kindle and look into it but what what what is it about the Book of Enoch that you think I might find interesting other than all the talk of Noah on my my favorite patriarch Oh verifies about the firmament the stars what they are exactly how they work how the Sun Moon and stars work how everything everything it verifies and totally slams you know the heliocentric model and throws it in the garbage and says it's not real it tells us how exactly movements of the Sun of the Moon of everything and here's the thing if that book is not expired well then who cares what it says right but then I heard early church fathers there was a ton of them that believed in the Book of Enoch so that kind of shocked me and I just heard that a few days ago so I was curious if you knew about it or not no I'm not aware of that I'm gonna look into it that's the kind of thing I'm interested to look into but certainly just because it's not inspired doesn't mean it we should ignore it and like I said a Catholic scholar that I know is he's making his whole PhD just on the book of you know and there are thousands of scholars who are doing just that so we have to take it seriously and all all of the early texts in and around Chris the Christian early Christian movement we have to take them seriously because they do can they do contain some part of the Catholic truth right to one extent I don't know god only knows yeah yeah it tells us what the stars are he it he gives name for the CERN stars which ones are in charge there cuz they what he says in that book is their their their angelic their in in angelic form their angels and so and it's so funny when you man when you grab that telescope and you look at these stars they kind of looking at nothing like um of the images that were that are in our textbooks and in our science books and that are on the NASA's website so that's just and that's just another thing you know another red flag there but but it's it's it's pretty amazing and that that book I haven't read the whole thing but but what I did read it totally supports of the dominant firm all um you know the firmament the dome all of that it totally you know so it's very specific and in detail you know I mean I I don't know if it's a Catholic doctrine or not but I do believe that all of the material universe is governed and managed by angels so that every spin of every quirk in the universe is being managed and governed by angels I think one angel could do the whole material universe just because they they move at the speed of thought and they can they can accomplish the management of every molecule in the universe from beginning to end but it might be a team of angels or you know different shifting teams of angels I don't have any source to support my belief but I do believe that angels obviously are involved in doing God's work of sustaining the entire unit so the material the animate and inanimate parts of this material world like even our fleshy bodies I think they're angels involved in governing what the you know the quantum scientists are examining and they think it's some cold dead fundamental particles but I think that they're alive with the life of God and the the instructions of God to maintain in his providence the well-ordered universe that we live in which allows science to take place in the first place so I think we're gonna be blown away at the final judgement when we see how God's world works and you're you know you're putting yourself out on the limb by going a little bit further up and I am willing to go right now but it's not nearly as wacky and weird as the ultimate reality actually is at the final judgment we're gonna say you know Nick's ideas were a little bit strange but not too strange compared to the actual reality the actual reality is way more fabulous way more interesting and way more wacky and weird from our mundane perspective because we are blinded by sin were blinded by Satan and his demons and Satan and his demons don't want us to appreciate the wonder of God's creation and the wonder of the natural world he wants to dumb it down into something boring something predictable and something where God's not involved you know at all so I think I think the complete opposite is the case I think that God is intimately involved in everything and we're gonna get to see that at the final judgment that's that's my hunch I don't have Magisterial documents to back me up I mean I could look into it and see if the fathers talk about this sort of thing but I know that in the Middle Ages they talked about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin but I have no idea if that's if that's a true anecdote or if that's just sort of a mockery of the Catholic theologians at that time all right all right probably a microbrew knows but do you do you believe in that Giants were on this earth the way the Bible says and if so what do you think what do you know or do you believe in Giants ed oh sure why not I have no problem with that whatsoever I mean I I firmly believe in that in the longevity of the pre-flood patriarchs is that with the calls I have absolutely no doubt about that I mean if it turns out not to be the case that's fine you know God can tell me you know at the final judgement if that was not the case if that was some sort of colorful exaggeration in Scripture that's fine but I happen to believe I happen to believe in the longevity of you know Adam and Eve and those patriarchs major export before the flood and I believe in you know I take a lot of Genesis a lot more literally than most people do as you know and if I'm wrong that's fine I mean I'm not gonna go to hell because I took the Bible too literally right right right right and it's money of course there are some things that we shouldn't take the Bible literally say later but I'm sorry Genesis is more of a literal account like you know what I mean it really is I mean so it's kind of like and yeah yeah I guess I was gonna touch on something but I guess I'll leave that alone but anyways I was just gonna say yeah definitely I believe in the Tower of Babel and the you know that was literal giants were literal you know all of that so and it's and it just fits right in I mean look how funny there's a passage at the end at the end of the world in Revelation he says God is gonna peel the sky back like a scroll right I mean if that passage don't fit the firmament I mean I don't know what does you know what I mean like it you know and and all the stars are gonna fall to the earth as um like of a fig tree right so you picture the figs falling from a tree right that the stars will fall from heaven it says to the earth like that of a fig tree so it's kind of like right the figs are smaller than the tree and that I mean and and and and not just that I mean uh okay but that's a book of Revelation fine right there's there's of course some things that are poetic or more what's the word I'm looking for but I'm not literally allegorical and stuff but when you go to Genesis Genesis job kinda tells us how this place is and I think it's God talking but in the book of Job he tells us and it's funny I mean he tells us the shape of this place student so but I'm gonna I'm gonna leave it there and leave it for whoever wants to read it but but how about I was gonna ask you about um let's see how about with you anything anything new with you that you've been reading lately that you have been enjoying yeah I just read a nice book by one of my listeners actually Scott Smith Scott L Smith you can check out his book on Amazon I read his book I gave a nice review is a nice very nice short book on praying the rosary with Saint John Paul the second really nice book it compiles some of the teachings of st. John Paul the second and of course Saint John Paul the second is the one that gave us the Luminous Mysteries right so there's a lot there to gather inspiration for your daily rosary I highly enjoyed that it was a quick read and then I would just went straight back to what I'm reading what I've been reading for the past few weeks and maybe even months now which is the fill oka Lea which is a large large collection of writings from the 4th century to the 15th century roughly and it's the Desert Fathers Eastern you know what do you call those people that go to live off in on their own you know Hermits and you know these hermit people but the wisdom the wisdom of the Desert Fathers is very powerful because it's very simple it focuses on three main three main vices three main demons they call them okay so the acronym for it is GA s you can remember it like if you say I have gas so I have gluttony I have avarice and I have self-esteem this is the these are the three primary demons that we need to be aware of if we want to conquer vice and if we want to grow in virtue we need to get rid of our gas our gluttony our avarice and our self-esteem so globally elaborate avarice is wanting possessions money and you know they've got worldly possessions and this sort of thing gluttony is the cause according to the Desert Fathers they drill it in over and over again gluttony with food is the cause of a lot of unchastity so if you have for example I get wet dreams a lot so I don't like it I used to enjoy it when I was transitioning from atheist to Catholic because you know I didn't have to masturbate and I got all the pleasure at night in my demonic sex dreams right right I quickly I quickly realized that this is not healthy it's a it's a symptom of perversion that's in the back of my mind that's manifesting in my dreams and my demonic sex dreams and so they the Desert Fathers are giving me insight into how to control the demon of unchastity by controlling the demon of gluttony so I have been noticing since I've been reading this that if I eat too much especially before bed or if by accident I eat garlic and garlic of all things that I hate garlic but if I do eat garlic I have these demonic sex dreams and usually have a wet dream and so gluttony gluttony is tied with chastity this is according to the Desert Fathers so that's something I've been working on trying to eat less I mean I'm about 15 pounds overweight anyway so I want to eat less and control my get control of my gluttony and then have more chaste and pure sexuality not be like staring at sexy women on the street all the time which is a tendency and old habit of mine which is hard very hard to kill and then we've averaged like just being controlling over money like money or possessions and that sort of attachment we all have that I'm not really tackling that right now cuz I'm poor and it's none of my primary concern and then the self-esteem obviously is that is the mother of all those prideful sins and all those vices having to do with pride and but I'm tackling first of all I'm tackling gluttony and then I'll take it from there but certainly pride is the is the main one that's sort of like the big the big boss bottle that's gonna have to take place at the end of a is a self esteem and the way to conquer that is to love to love everyone equally and to love unselfishly and to not have favorites and to love your enemies as you love your your most beloved family members and to be detached in that way so certainly sounds good in theory am I am i close to in close to living that no I'm not I mean I have my favorites and I do love my enemies in theory but if they annoy me I'm genuinely annoyed so I have a lot of work to do with self esteem obviously you know same here I struggle with the gluttony too but um thank god I've been noticing it and praying about it a lot so I'm working on it too it's a tough one it's a tough one yeah I mean I I primarily eat for pleasure I mean I don't care how nutritious the food is generally speaking like if it's sweet I like it if it's salty I like it if it's oily I like it if it's fat I like it if it's crunchy I like it you know I eat I've been eating my whole life for pleasure like a pig like a pig you know if I open a bag of tricks I eat the whole bag of chips like if I open a bag of cookies I'll eat the whole bag of cookies I'm just a glutton so it's a really it's a really obvious sin that I need to get control of and we're not supposed to eat just for pleasure now there is pleasure associated with it by the grace of God he's a loving God a merciful God he gave he gives us pleasure but we abuse that I am I have used that I mean you can speak for yourself but I abuse that so I'm gonna have to start eating less and eat not for pleasure primarily but eat primarily to keep my body alive and keep me functioning so that I can work for God and then I can pray and that I can grow closer to God and it's going to help our prayer life if if we can manage to eat less eat more simply eat only nutritional stuff and eat less junk it's gonna help with our prayer life so I think that's a that's a big motivating factor if we can get closer to God by cutting back on some of the self-indulgence with food don't you agree yep I agree I agree agree so when when you go to Mass you're you are you usually by yourself or do you go with anybody no I always go alone I don't have any I don't have any Catholic friends I mean you're you're one of you know five or six Catholic friends I have on planet earth got it you got it yeah it's I know it's it's so funny but following God is a lonely world but it's so funny because it's bad thing you know it's not a bad thing yeah I'm the same way I want to I just want to pray when I'm at church I you know come try to get there 10-15 minutes early pray on my kneeler and pray through the mass pray after the mass and on Fridays we do adoration for you know just 10 15 minutes after mass Friday mornings before church and it's the highlight of my week you know doing that adoration and then on Sunday depending on which church I go to which mass I go to sometimes there's a duration after the mass on Sunday and so I get a little bit of adoration in you know once or twice a week depending on how often I go to Mass during the week nice-nice do you do do you say the Rosary often yeah I say it everyday I missed it once this week because I stayed up late helping my wife with some stuff commit I don't want to talk about her she doesn't want to be included in my trip but yeah if I'm not like exceptionally busy in some evening then I pray every night and I don't I don't claim to pray well but I'm hoping I'll learn to pray better with each passing month and with each passing year especially if I get control over my gluttony and some of the other principle vices that should help my prayer life because right now just burning through my prayers like I got to get this over with because you know Satan's pissed off that I'm praying and he hates the Rosary and he's gonna interrupt me and he's gonna give me distracting thoughts so I got a I got to get this over with so I like I got it done it's always been my way with the Rosary it's like a nervous energy like I can't I can't relax rarely you know sometimes I get peace and a calm and I can take it a regular pace but usually I'm just nervous and it's my temperament anyways I've got a nervous temperament I really need I really need to relax but my most my most calm prayer life is during the mass that's when I'm most calm but before the Blessed Sacrament especially and that's when I'm at peace that's when I'm calm and I don't have you know this 15 or 20 minutes of repetition that I need to go through in the meditation and the images I tend to get nervous when I have that burden on me but I'm persisting with it with my rosary I'm you know making baby steps making progress every every day when I pray it and but there's still a sort of nervous that sort of nervousness that I'm struggling with during the Rosary in particular if it's if it's short prayers like I do about 20 minutes of prayer 20 minutes in the evening and then I do my rosary after that so it's a lot of Prayer but the most nervous I get is during the Rosary I don't know why I just feel like it's like am I going to be able to complete this there's feeling many - I feel like I mean sort of in that the Coliseum and the Lions are there and I'm you know it's you know it's funny what I do because I felt that - of course right am I gonna finish am I so you know what I do I found this Gregorian chant but it's very few words right and the music's wonderful on it and I play that right that puts me at a nice peace and a calm right away and what I do is I'll even only do I'll do one meaningful decade one decade meaningful nice and slow with concentration and if and then and then a lot of times I'll catch myself I'll do a second decade and then a third because it's going so nice and so you know so this so it really helps so so so so maybe try to find find you one of those Jose it really helps I mean it just it works right away it takes it lets you concentrate on it I forget the name of the one I have but it's just a Gregorian chant and it's it's very few words and then the music goes for three minutes calm relaxing music bell and then it comes and I'll tell you what that those wonders it does wonders one thing that calms me during my rosary is you know I have a little shrine right of it I have a camera in there now so you can see that's my shrine there so I have them I have the candles and I have the incense burning and I've got images around me so that really helps with the calming down the nerves and you know either looking at a religious image or I'm looking right at the crucifix which is my favorite or I'm you know looking at the smoke rising like when I do the descent of the Holy Spirit I like to see the smoke rising from my incense because I picture the Holy Spirit one and it's causing that smoke to billow up that's one of my images that I use so I have different techniques to try to enter into the calm and the peace of the prayer and of course having the images for each of the twenty mysteries I do have them there so I can glance up at those and but yeah so I do get a lot out of the Rosary every day I do have a certain amount of calm but I don't feel like I'm it's rare that I have a really deep peace and a really deep meditation and a really satisfying rosary usually and there are other considerations also like time constraints and my my wife you know constantly wanting this or that just you know just nice stuff like let's eat or let's you know be a boy watch our favorite show or whatever it is but I can't completely ignore the fact that I've got her there too but but she gives me my she gives me my space and I really appreciate that and I do my prayers you know I take take 20 minutes do my rosary or whatever it is and yeah it's a work in progress so yeah it's something I definitely want to improve on mm-hmm yeah yeah maybe try that with one nice calming music or a Gregorian chant or some I think you'll enjoy it really it works for me and like I said I think it's even even its better because I think if I just breeze through a whole rosary real quick or if I do a decade with Meany nice and calm you know and really meaningful and open-hearted and kind I think that probably is is worth more anyways you know first anniversary yeah for sure I've been I've been counseled by priests to split up my rosary so I could do like what you do just do a decade here a decade there and like you said it's quality over quantity for sure yeah but it's more of a nervous compulsion on my part because it took me it took me seven years to pray the rosary every day to me seven years of saying I've got to start praying the rosary and like I memorized the rosary you know within within the first couple of years just here and they're just sort of praying and sporadically but I hadn't memorized but it was just a struggle it's a struggle to get started doing it and now at least I'm in the habit of praying it every day but when you think about me when you think about the Opposition in the spirit world the opposition to the rosary there there are a few activities that we do that are so heavily targeted by Satan and his demons as the Rosary I think it's one of the most targeted practices of any Catholic is the Rosary so I think there's a reason why it took me seven years to say it daily and I think there's a reason why it's gonna take me another seven years to say it properly but a lot of the saints a lot of the Saints have said that if you could pray one Hail Mary properly you'd be a saint you know they're they're great there is there are their levels upon levels upon levels of prayer and I'm at the very bottom with a very baby step of saying hey maybe one day I could learn to pray to you know wouldn't that be nice that's about the level I'm I didn't know you know it's funny I noticed that I like I mean I I'm remembering my previous and now in my it's it's amazing when it gets deeper and deeper and it's amazing I definitely don't say the Rosary enough but when I do say the Rosary and I'm done I feel like I'm floating I feel like I'm floating off of my chair a few inches for at least five minutes you know it's amazing it really is so yeah the prayer and like I said I mentioned earlier how we don't know how important prayer is but there's some about when you can just when when we can get it together to pray meaningfully with the open heart and just I don't know what you call it you know the stronger praying I don't know what you call it right but when you get there it's amazing and and it's wow it blows my mind to think that it can get back it even get deeper and deeper and stronger and you know that's amazing my is definitely going deep over however this year you know so yeah that's amazing but um so is there anything else before we wrap up because I'm gonna go see I'm gonna go meet my wife at a friend's place is there anything else like a topic that you want it to touch on today you're always welcome to come back but since we're talking now is there anything else important that you'd like to touch on or any questions you have for me let's see um it's so funny I should have wrote a few down there was a few I had but I'm not remembering him now but I still enjoy I enjoy a freestyle talk anyways you know non-scripted is nice you know so open heart to open heart that's always good so but no but a bright side of my I have a two-year-old and my wife's pregnant with our second so that's some good news ah congratulate oh thank you yeah it's amazing it really is so um but that's it so maybe well I want to try ask you yeah I'll be praying for you and your family and your wife and your children I wanted to ask you have you met anyone on my channel my youtube channel that you're communicating with regularly or praying with in the Union of Prayer have you have you met people like you know my friend Matthew Murdock and the Liz knee brothers and these guys are you in contact with anyone from the channel or no no it was only Matthew Murdock a few e-mails back and forth and that was it so nope nope not yet but um but I haven't reached out neither too many so I should try but it was only Matthew a few times um I enjoyed you guys's interview by the way not a trip man I love them and like kind of like I commented it's so fun he's like stuck he's like this is too good to be true you know like it's too good to be true so he's resisting with all he can just anything but to surrender it's so funny yeah it's funny I skeptical tits turning his sceptile meter to 11 and so funny yeah I can relate to that you know in I always relate religion to romantic love that's that's the image that God uses in a holy scripture a lot and that's the image I like to use and you know I resisted the advances of my wife my beautiful wife when she was sort of courting me 24 25 years ago and I resisted pretty firmly until I had a dream I had a dream where I had to choose to kiss her which signify I'm all-in or to walk away and never have contact with her in this dream I turned I looked at her I took off her Sun Hat and I kissed her and then the very next day I woke up you know woke up in love with her and then we're walking in that very same field of my dream and we don't we'd never walked in that field before it's a field called Columbia Lake and I I told her about my dream and I she was blown away that my attitude had changed but it's the same thing with religion and with God he's chasing us like the Hound of heaven he's chasing us down he's chasing Matthew Murdock down he's chasing her and raw down he's chasing Matt Dillahunty down he's chasing everyone down he's chasing you and I don't he's chasing us down because we're not fully in love with him yet but that initial conversion anyway is like that submission like you said you give in you give up and you you allow your heart to open and this is one of your sayings heart to hurt you know open heart to open heart and I really like this this analogy with with romantic love and seduction very very powerful and I think everyone that converts to God is pleasantly surprised in that in that way and has that same thrill you know it's funny that you say that because I see it as a marriage as how I always compare it I could see so many things that make sense when I compare it well how is the marriage supposed to be and then all of a sudden I understand passages of the Bible and I understand questions I had and I understand so when you compare it to a marriage a lie it makes so much sense for sure yeah yeah I mean we have to be a better spouse to Christ I mean this is it I mean we we just need to once we know that we've you know been selfish we need to repent and we need to come back to Jesus and clean up our heart that space in our heart so that he's comfortable there that he'll come with God the Father and the Holy Trinity ratan they'll dwell in our heart but if it's cluttered up with a bunch of junk he's not gonna be comfortable there you know God the Son

CVS Live Guest - 2020-01-25 - Kalen R.

so we're live I'm here with Kailen Kailen how's it going it's going alright how about you it's going well yeah nice to hear from you thanks for connecting we've spent the last 47 minutes doing sound checks and transom it's been fun getting to know you in that sort of informal yeah tech tech support mode anything oh yeah we didn't have to get your roommates involved so it's all good we got it figured out and so you you learned about my channel through Nathan Ormond one of my guests and I understand you're a young Catholic living in Ottawa but I'm gonna let you introduce yourself and tell the listeners a little bit about yourself if you would please okay so for for for whoever may be listening my name is Kailyn I am I am I am a ki I'm a Catholic but I don't want to say but because I mean has two counts like I should be adhering to traffic doctrine and a wine with all the Catholic teaching um but one of the reasons why I wanted to you know kind of come on here and talk with David here because I do have some questions about about about my faith and I assume that he's better better educated in it than I am and and I haven't always been a Catholic actually I was only confirmed into the Catholic Church just this past kind of cost and I mean I did so I didn't just kind of do it just oh why not I mean I it was an informed decision and I I spent like the past maybe entire year just for several months studying I've been going to Catholic Church to the past how many years it used to be an Anglican Church is not part of the England Ordinariate though it is it's in Kingdom with Rome but yeah that's me I am I'm a Catholic so this is Catholic versus Catholic but that doesn't that don't worry that doesn't mean it might not get 'spicy don't worry yeah so yeah it's technically speaking this is not Catholic versus Catholic because that would be a pre-recorded thing I can make it all make myself sound like a genius by editing out of all my mumbling and fumbling and all the tangents and uh what was I talking about again I can't you know all that stuff so this is CBS live guest so we've got to watch what we say and I sure I had to make my hair all pretty for you today so let's start by talking a little bit about your your avatar I've got it on the screen when I stop talking I switch over to the desktop and I can see your your your avatar your icon just talk a little bit about that and the background for that we discussed it a little bit off air but I want I want my listeners to hear and I want to hear more more of the story explore how the interesting yeah is there there's a lot more that goes to it so I can't I can't see what's being shown but I'm assuming that it's there uh anyone who's watching this now or in the future is able to see this image which is the most important part is that just a rectangle and a square the left of it or it's right however you want to say it and that image was based off of a photograph that I took when I was about 15 just being I why I'm like I'm an artist somewhat I went to an arts high school so no being a 15 year olds you're full of anxiety we got all that teen angst and you want to express that in an artwork so I had a I had a taste for really I guess director artwork doctor things I you know if it's people like seeing art that speaks to them and and that was this kind of the art that spoke to me at the time I'm certainly not anymore I'll tell you that but so is it is a grungy image of as a photograph of the reflection of a door that was a nursery door and a first-aid box and in the picture was just lit really it just looks kind of creepy so I used it in like oh this is an awesome picture I'll just use it in whatever and but what happened was that that was when I was that was mini mini museum and that was taken um the pictures taken right beside a classroom and this is last year I had a class in that classroom and in that class there was an image that came up and the date of that image which was 1315 was very similar to the number that I named my photograph which was a seven one three one five anyway so the number connection right there was was I stopped that was a first day I noticed I'm like oh wow I've seen that number before then I remembered em in that classroom like oh yeah that number corresponds to the picture I took of the nursery door in the first aid box so I looked to my left and I can see it right there some state in the classroom then I look at the artwork on that's been presented and it's a picture of the Theotokos it's a holy May Blessed Virgin Mary and crow holding Christ and hey look at that and I look at the first aid box in the nursery door and the number everything's clicking and I realized that there's some pretty interesting connection that's being made here and it was and then just that right there it just stood out to me because like this is such a crazy just crazy coincidence you know and ever since then I've looked at my artwork I've look to that picture of the whole different light because what that with the picture symbolizes in my way I see it well it's a nursery door it's you know and that nursery supplies we take care of children and it's door so Mary quite literally is the door for Christ into this world and Christ is our crusade box and these are the divine physician and so this is this is only the first half of this or maybe less in half because basically what what we did look at the class that I was in was my college which is called Augustine college if any of you listeners have part of it or maybe not it's a one year liberal arts program where we study the history of Western thought so we study the art philosophy the literature all of these things that have been staples in Western society we study the history of it and you can kind of see really I mean when you look at thing I'm not really but I'm not super academic but I am I I guess a low tier intellectual like I like I like looking at the big picture things and especially you study the Bible it's insane you just like take a step back and look at the look at the big picture and so yeah stuff studying studying here Augustine College kind of permanently like I like to I like to use the word scarred it's pretty pretty it describes it pretty actively because it's like something I can't get out of my head um but it started the way I think it in a very positive way because I feel like I can think properly now as prior to prior to this um I think in really modern ways and it's not just because that's I grew I've grown up in a modern society I've grown up thought I was thinking in whatever category in categories whatever terms that I've been I've been given um I guess I liked it more not later yeah I want to I want to focus on your journey from non Catholic to Catholic and talk a little bit about the context in your family are there Catholics historically in your family tree or not and what sort of religion was in home if any just talk a little bit about that a few of those yeah for sure so I mean actually it wasn't like I'm just this kid with no faith background who became Catholic just for whatever reason my ID grew up um octina I don't what my mom's mom was Catholic but my mom but the bite see how she converted back to she turned away from the faith or I came aboard every reason but it must have been something to do with well whatever I don't know the story but anyway so my mom did not grow up Catholic she not sure how she grew up but she's Christian for sure same thing was my brother my my son um helices my father he owned he because his parents are very very very like they they are very devout Christians they are I believe that going to an Anglican Church I think you're going through Lutheran lung but anyways but yeah my grandfather is a pastor on there there are two very very great people very devout Christians and so my father he he grew up Protestant and so that's kind of just how I end up growing up we went to a Baptist Church um I took her in British Columbia out west so I was about to church for the first maybe eight year yes first eight years of my life and then um then when we came here to Ottawa my dad came here to all about because of the college actually um my entire life revolves around this college I mean I mean more and more accurate revolves around Christ and God and God used this College to say something to me and so anyways the the teacher that coincidentally taught the art class that I'm talking about the change my life of the teacher cappella art class went to Negron Church and so my dad and my family just ended up going to that church because my dad was good friends with with this man and so yeah we went to that church for the path for I I be goin thought seeing church seen building because it'll sing community people more or less to the past twelve twelve years and it was an Incan Church and it became part of the it was twenty twelve maybe that became part of the inclin'd Ordinariate so we have traditional like Anglican music and hymns and stuff like that but it's in communion with Rome and we see logically we believe in the Catholic teachings and we believe in the Catholic Church and all that it's very very much so very Catholic but with the Anglican flavor I suppose you could say which I'm personally at the end of a fan of so anyways yeah so I grab my parents they they they actually didn't they didn't join the temporary parish kind of all became confirmed at once my parents didn't actually ah go though they actually spent another if they didn't firstly come into communion with Rome for another um it was a couple years and then so then they went then my younger siblings kind of went but the him assist because I my parents was our parents did but then me my older sister we both not we we didn't do anything we kind of just me we went to the church and all that but we wouldn't you know we wouldn't take eucharist because you can't do that much here at Catholic so we were kind of going to the church and not really know using the sacraments or anything but then so it was a matter of years of just being like that not really no not not really engaging I mean I've been an altar service whole time actually I still am so this is kind of awkward to have an officer who actually isn't even confirmed Catholic at a Catholic Church but that's how it was because it's a small parish and they needed me quite honestly so what happened was that meeting my sister we decided yeah we get our research we did all the all the you know kind of reading and preparation that we had to do and then we became part of beauty and confirmed in the Catholic Church just as fast Pentecost so that six months ago congratulations thank you it's amazing so I'll have to get your sister on here yeah she'd be another great person to have on Ash in the bill I thought that her and her fiance oh man you need you need to meet her fiance King he'd grow up a hardcore Protestant and he's also becoming Catholic because he was also someone who searches for the truth and the truth yeah so what were the stumbling blocks if any usually it's the papacy infallibility and and Mary what were the stumbling blocks for you and to a lesser extent you can talk about your sister stumbling blocks if a difference probably well my I'm not sure she had the same stumbling blocks or not I am I think her and I both had a similar similar one III recognize the importance of Mary and I pray that he'll marry sometimes but I've actually never I prayed the rosary once but I didn't do it very well I I'm soaked to this point I've never really properly prayed the rosary and it's something I feel like the Catholic I should be doing but um even though man I'm gonna confirm Catholic that's still part of me is like still kind of scared of it almost which is not not a good design but that was that wasn't really my biggest stumbling block I think the biggest one for me was um I did to me the biggest one was the Eucharist actually like it's really really hard to get my mind around that physical presence of Jesus Christ is in this bread in this wine like that is because if that's true like that changes everything yeah I like it it's uh I can remote buzz but some some Catholic intellectual riester and someone goes talks he he pretty much said like if the Eucharist is not the body and blood of Christ and to hell with her like it doesn't matter it's just some simple like bro who cares I mean similar saw something but fades like Catholic Church it's the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ and it's that's that's a pretty big deal on bayonets and that still is not something like it's don't want to see if you struggle with but something I'm very conscious of and I I take it very seriously they'll tell you that like if I feel sluttin slightly in the slightest bit addicted I should not receive the Eucharist I do not I take it seriously but too intellectually like affirm that it is this is like it's still difficult for me but I live by faith I'm taking that's that's what that is yeah that's what it's all about it's all about faith you don't need to you know have some sort of supernatural vision mystical yeah and every time I mean I when I am at mass I am exercising my faith right and yeah I know that there's a chance that I'm wrong I belong to a fall religion but that's just because I'm fallible but and I I do believe that I belong to the one true church that was founded by the god man Jesus Christ and therefore I believe as the church tells me to believe and I don't find it hard to believe but I'm not getting a you know I'm not getting a spectacular mystical experience every time I go Eucharist right so we need to we need to bear in mind that it is the faith that is being exercised we're asked to have faith to believe and to show reverence and to be humble before the sacrament and to appreciate that moment and the the gifts that are offered by Jesus Christ in the sacrament when we are humble before the sacrament and I can tell ya it's the it is the highlight of my week the the Eucharist because I didn't seriously and it's I'm sure it's the same for you and over the years you and I will grow closer and closer to Jesus Christ in the Eucharist and elsewhere but especially in the Eucharist it is the source and the summit of our via of our faith that's how the that's how Vatican 2 puts it in several ecumenical councils before Vatican 2 have put it and many Saints have talked about Eucharist as being this source and the summit of our beautiful faith so amen III agree 100% and so yeah it and like honestly like it's almost like it was at first at first it was like one of the stumbling blocks like it's hard to believe and now no I do I see it not way that you put it and I realize how important it is even even if still sometimes I'm like intellectually I intellectually I feel like I'm prideful sometimes and yeah dog I'm not humbling myself but I'm still thank God I still have the ability to obviously refrain from taking eucharistic I feel like I'm in a state in which I can't can't receive it and so yeah it's like when I realize that like that's what that's what it is like that's why why would how I not been Cod like my whole life I've been missing out you know though I want to talk do you have something to say about that um I really think this is a good point to talk about the sacrament of reconciliation confession and how how was it for you going to your first confession how did you feel going in how did you feel coming out and how frequently do you go to confession a month two months now is it to once every two weeks once every week once every month once every how often do you go I well I can tell you I should call I actually had plans of going inner them later because I I believe I think it's a good thing to go once a month and that's what I tried to do but I inevitably had failed so for me it's more than once every two months things I've done and I think again I've only been a Catholic for about six at a month so I've probably been rushing maybe two four times maybe five times girls count secret definitely no more than six times you know me a lot okay and Arthur do you have your sort of short list of your favorite things that you want without going into the nasty details well it there are dairy occurrence but it's not anything like this because I I think just blow a hole I understand how sacrament reconciliation how it is very like like it really is an important dude it's so important it's like I add another reason why like if a product like if other churches don't have this what are you doing like I it's I can't explain with words how important I really do believe it is and anyways it's a but every time that I've done it though I'll tell you that it's been more or less the same we're yeah I come in with my with with with the list I write down I prepared beforehand during my examination of conscience and all that and I actually free it's like I forget most of it when I walk out like I forgot like I mean I don't forget this is that this is not how it should go I don't necessarily forget the sin itself how it impacted me I forgot whether I confessed it or not which did I try to read off the whole page so it's like won't shoot while I hope I hope it's the same thing for my priest I hope he also doesn't remember any us but um but no seriously it's a guy - in another state where I'm almost emotional like I just to put it bluntly I feel almost emotionally emotionally detached like I'm just like I'm a robot I'm programmed to say to say these things and then and then leave and and I can tell you that man that might just because it's in a in a setting with another person in it and it's kind of awkward but um I've had it I've had several experiences where I've really really felt on I on a really deep level like like I'm like I'm in total tears and it's like like I need to cry harder than what's physically possible like it's I had 7 I get these every so often credibly emotional experiences you know that's the story in Isaiah where he where God asks Hosea the prophet to have a prostitute life yep and I realized that like I am that wife and I've been unfaithful to God night I really feel on a personal like I'm a deep deep love when I'm like you know it's no that was the moment I wish I could feel like that when I'm actually in the confessional because I feel like that's what you ought to be feeling when you're when you're you know professing your sins but also I have those like I have many of those experiences outside of confession but within confession I'm like emotionally detached yeah it's stage-fright - probably but yeah you know I I really I'm jealous because I want that that contrition I want those tears I've never had the tears I might be might be emotionally blocked or I might just be I might be just a typical man or I might just be you know spiritually immature but it's necessarily I heard it a lot and people people do talk about like man I wish I had those feelings and to that like just seal the deal listen to another podcast don't his name but he's up he's a lot better known is that the program was called Pines with Aquinas of something and okay and he was the one guy was talking to the other and and he was and and one one guy was like me who's had my name's exclude experience the other one was the more heady intellectual kind of guy he says well I don't have at least he said he doesn't have as many but he wishes that he would have those and I really like I really thought like the first time I ever had like I realized craps is what happens happening I I almost began to idolize that experience my big begin to see like almost like that that emotional experience becomes my step my own personal sacrament as in like in a mister you know it's like a it becomes a sacrament something I want to be getting it in it I it is deepening me my faith but it's it's not a real not a real sacrament that's institutionalized by the church it's just an emotional experience I'm having and it's like I almost start to I almost search for those experiences now and it's like that's it's not real if you're searching for it it's real when you're given given to you by God yeah and yeah and I also mean like you briefly mentioned that you're maybe I'm just your typical man or whatever but um yeah I I feel like personally I need a I'm probably a lot more emotional than your average do as well that doesn't mean keep it in mind it's not it's not it's not a bad thing that you don't experience those because I am I experience I've almost idolized those experiences like it's yeah we all need to accept reality as it is and accept the graces that God gives us yeah and yeah I don't chase after the emotion I mean I couldn't make myself cry I could I could work myself up to tears or officially unofficially if I do that and I remember back in the early days of my marriage my wife used to tickle me until I cried as an emotional therapy because she thought I didn't have access to my emotions so she would tickle me until I until I couldn't handle it anymore and I broke out with tears but haven't done that in a while and yeah but I don't chase down I don't chase down emotions and I yeah I don't necessarily trust my emotions and there's a lot of literature in the church from the Saints and the Church Fathers saying that if tears come naturally great but we shouldn't necessarily lean on our feelings as such not lean on our faith and on our our intellect needs to lead to a certain extent together with our conscience being to the intellect or reason and then the emotions of course come along because we're human beings even those of us who are macho manly men who don't cry yeah yeah sure I was being facetious there but yeah so let's keep exploring your faith journey because you're such a young girl you're such a young con guy what did your family and friends say did they say this is just a little step from your Anglican as a Baptist you know Baptist Church Anglican Church and you're just taking yet another little step or was this a it was this a categorical change for your family and friends that you and your sister took the took the leap into full communion with Rome is it a big deal or a medium deal or a small deal for your family friends bring small deal beautifully on the big deal for me I probably right but I mean like the rest my family already Affleck um but I mean ads in my mind meet my father my mother in my siblings my the rest of my family is not a Catholic I actually have no idea how how they see how I see that change um but just in general just when it comes to interacting with other other Christians who are not other same born Catholic it's like it's not to me if something I think of a deal I I see that you're there it's not about what church you I was illegally but like what church you belong to it's it's more about how how devoutly you're practicing and I do believe that the Catholic Church holds a fullness of a they'll tell you that but um if you're there there are many many people who are Protestants or more devout than I am let's put that way yeah I'm not I've said it many times I think there are atheists that are better Christians than I am I mean it's not a it's not a big stretch I mean this is part of being a Christian as' is accepting reality as it is and knowing where where you stand on that ladder of ascent you know and the the mystical ladder is intimidating if you read the great mystics of the church or even you just read it just read any kind of achievements of any of the Saints maybe young murderers or anyone I mean yeah I'm Sarah I'm scoring low on every I'm scoring low on every metric you know what I mean yeah yeah I know that feeling yeah I actually have my own I sponsor as I got confirmed I guess he's technically my god over now he gave me uh he gave me a book a ladder of divine essence-- by st. john climacus and it's it's about III think have you heard of it you yeah I just bought it from a Kindle because my friend came and isn't he a cure and Liz knee recommended it he and his brother Aidan Liz knew you might have heard them on my podcast they're starting I think they're starting or they may have already started a podcast where they're going to go through that book actually that's the content of their podcast I hope that they're doing it I hope that it's either started or it's going start soon and if yeah if they start to get cold feet I'll have to put some pressure on them to make that project happen because it sounds exciting but I I might process out actually yeah well I am in the process of reading the Phil Kalia which is the East that's what I want to read yeah yeah amazing amazing light it's the most life-changing book I've read it's a collection of writings but it's the most life-changing ministering writing that I've read since my conversion in during my conversion when I was studying philosophy for many years as a hobby I discovered obviously the Catholic philosophers and san agustin and he's the one that converted me to God and yeah and to the church but so saying that the students say the custody is my man he's my favorite my favorite saint because of that I'm a saint here oh yeah really and yes so later I was really really deeply affected by his writings and then of course all the Saints I just dove in and I read everything and there are a few highlights on the way but this fellow Kalia is really it's a different approach it's an Eastern approach it's a it's an approach and it's it's really really practical and that's why I'm that's why I'm excited to read it it's also very crippling in terms of shame and guilt like I'm such a loser and this book really this really this really humbles me this book more than a lot of the other the other books I read were like oh yes it's I can you know I can be right there with you in your speculations or in your your your love and devotion and all this about Mary and all these books I read but this book is really putting it the the target on me and my thoughts am i controlling my thoughts no I'm throwing my appetites no am i praying as I should know am I making vigils no am i standing you know as a penance no am i taking on voluntary penances not too many I mean very few so it's it's very sobering it's very sobering and I highly recommend it if you're if you're ready for that kind of thing oh man I don't even know if I'm ready well III understand what that kind of mean like into this this whole experience that I mean again obviously in Augustine's with my favorites because at the college I went to st. Augustine College named after him for a reason and also saying yeah just yeah a few throughout this college reading learning all the literature and philosophy all the stuff even just just that was a small taste of of this and it was already like and too much well you're you're a young you're a young person how old are you 20 and 21 so you've got your whole life ahead of you I converted at age 39 imagine how embarrassing that is Wow you know there's so many so many saints that have lived and died at the ripe old age of you know you know well before my conversion even started but there are other saints who converted late in life yeah Saint Agustin himself complained that he how late have I loved you lord no so I'm in good company there but of course I'm an embarrassment next to him but no there are Saints who convert late in life and it's not about comparing ourselves one yeah the other but I do you know I am jealous of you that you have this conversion experience and God willing you will nurture this faith this fledgling faith that you have nurture it this if you take anything if you take anything away from your thought with me it's that I want you to remember that you can lose your faith you have to take responsibility for this faith you have you have to protect it you have to build it up because if you don't build it up it's not just gonna remain flatlining constant it will decline you need to work at it you need to do your reading you need to do your prayers you need to love God you need to express your love to God always because if we're not if we're not improving then we are going backwards that's that that is one thing that's for sure in the spiritual walk with God right and for sure thank you very much like that I thought that is something that I need a hero it's something that's very important because I I can tell you it's it's is there there are so many distractions so so many ways to go wrong this isn't bad that well that could lead you away from the faith I mean it's I mean I I just just just last night I had this dream that I was obstacle it was like it's all snowy icy outside nas Clemmons giant Hill and mountain and at the top there it would suddenly became is really beautiful it was uh it was like all grassy the windows blowing the grass around it was beautiful and it was um yeah I was in tears now like thinking God like thank you God for giving no I heard forget for putting me here and then I kind of sat there looking and it was it was like a Ocean shoreline or something like that and then suddenly just people start appearing makeup room is a dream so that kind of happens the people appear without me noticing and I'm talking with these dudes these hippie kind of guys they're passing it around and I'm telling them how I'm like I can't I can't do that anymore like I've you know my experience with it has been you know it's been detrimental to my case it's this is just bad for my brain anyways as a young person and they they likely shut me and it was emotionally it was so it hurt so much like having these guy is that mean honest dreams are things are things of time on realistic but I just met them and yeah I had this emotional connections then it's like I I see myself in you and I feel like I am like you you were you were a brother to me we meant might not be on the same level spiritually but I like I love you and care about you so much and he just shut me away because I was sticking to my Christian principles and I was just and it's so easy to then I I had that weird dream just late last night and I almost I got a feeling is gonna come up in this conversation because and and this is where it is because that kind of those distractions is so easy to be part of this world as it it'd be so nice to be that I want to be that you know cool dude who will hang out with people and do whatever they want to do I'll be smoking weed or whatever having this big being the chilled New Ager kind of guy how easy that is to shock you from know an Orthodox Catholic faith it really is I'll tell you that's my biggest temptation in my life at the moment and it doesn't seem believing me it really is it's difficult yeah I mean I wanted to ask you because you are so young I wanted to ask you about puberty and girls and sex and all this yeah I'll be honest I mean that was something I struggle with as most people probably did but I can tell you like I'm very thankful to God that that really is not problem in my life at the moment and it hasn't been for the past two years so yeah because when you join the Catholic Church the women just flock to you during the Catholic Church you've got so many women to choose from kozelka there they always say okay right I'm kidding kidding again I'm just kidding bud I mean no actually the Catholic teaching on on sexuality is actually like it's a lot more it's a lot more clear and concise and strict tonight I know thankful for that and it makes sense I think I truly think it is the right right way it's right it's proper doctrine so that's how that's that's um but I put it that's kept me on the straight and narrow with regards to that to fit with with just sexuality and stuff but with which we've got like I think my big struggle that has to do with um I mean yeah it's got to do with like New Age thinking and your philosophy and I guess psychedelic drugs like I was really I I didn't I didn't get into them but they've been something because I go into a high school I was at every every high school it was such a prominent thing and it was you know people when they're in the 17 18 especially in the arts high school you're getting kinda a lot of that kind of stuff and that's always been like my biggest I think for me my biggest struggles trying to avoid them and not be too sucked into that kind of culture cuz it really does not it it what is it it's it's not nurturing you at all it's I just got a damages you spiritually and people feel to recognize the people people like you know do do drugs or whatever and they're like oh it makes you free if it makes it makes you think freely and all that and it's like not really it just makes you makes you a slave to yourself I think yeah I did a lot of not well not by anyone's standards I'm not going to press any one they wanted drugs I did but I did get involved in drugs in my adolescence and drugs and alcohol and luckily I have a weak Constitution so I couldn't push it too much but definitely a gateway to the demons and I exactly I got it I got into the New Age and finally you know after 25 years of New Age stuff I end up being an explicit Satanist like the Church of Satan sort of and Wow Anton LaVey kind of thing but know it all starts with you know sex drugs rock and roll one or jacket one or two take your pick whatever whatever works like the demons they want your soul and I mean they'll they'll offer you anything money yeah women drugs whatever you want whatever works best and st. Ignatius of Loyola says that they will always attack at your weak point so if your weak point is food the gopher they'll suggest nice food to you if your weak point yeah women they'll give you like opportunity with women if your weak point is money and power that's what that's what will be presented to you by the by the explicit permission of God they go before the throne of God and they say look this guy's weak for this let me tempt him with that and God says go ahead right ya know God will allow a certain amount of temptation just the right amount yeah we that we can handle with His grace exactly yeah yeah I like the book of Job pan talks about that where we're something like guy right or yeah yeah something similar happened showed but yeah the demons the demons got explicit permission a throne of God to to wreak mayhem in the life of job and his family and that's that's one that's one image in the Bible yep something to bear in like that that really oxide I've never even realized like such a simple idea I think oh they're gonna attack the weak points but I thought that you just thought helps me realize what my weak points are and it's you know Nathan you can ask yourself like I like to take it at like level even be like why do you have these weak ones you know do we arguing grow up with them or you know it's it's interesting to think about because I think the weak the weak point I've had and it's like I mean I think a whole reason why I've been sucked into the wage thinking or III was and still sometimes I guess kind of struggle with it um it's because I've and more more philosophy and just like looking at you know what the looking at the world through this lens that it's like pseudo-intellectual and it's like emotionally speaks to you it's really hard to explain but you know yeah yeah I'm sure you understand what I'm saying we're not it's not what the catheter just huges okay anything else I'll be the philosophes and anyway you don't understand the world that you get that are not from the Catholic Church or Christianity I says in general um have very much negatively impacted me and it's because ah like growing up I found that my listen I I do believe this is where we're a lot of like well partly why I'm here and why and I'm i whatever level I'm at my faith stems from this because when I was a kid like I've always like I say as long as I can remember like I'm I've been like four or five it maybe five or six but uh my way will they could lay awake at night my eyes closed and just think about like what's it like to be dead what's it what's what's um what's it feel like that the concept is infinity right I'm ending this what's that like I know I always try to picture like what's what is what would that feel like and you know I'd start getting dizzy and it's like you can't you can't comprehend it right so there are these things that are outside your grasp that you have to that you have an idea of but you have no you don't you don't know whether or not you're gonna face those personal you know is it very well I mean like if I if I at the moment we're not a Christian I believe that life is meaningless I could easily just be like I wouldn't care about what happened up to death in infinity as I understand it wouldn't would have no impact on me because I never an experienced that I'm only gonna my unconscious like I every dead and there's no like after death you're just unconscious it just like before you were born it won't matter but as like as a crowd as a kid I grew up I grew up with a Christian faith I didn't understand I don't think I understood heaven properly though because I'd still I'd still think about man what would it be like to see darkness for eternity I know it sounds like edging all that but like if this really is unlike my emotional experiences where I think about how I've been away from God I get all stems from it stems from this lack of meaning that that I excite style across on this culture and I see it everywhere and it's just it's so it's really sad and it's just like within these past couple years I'm so grateful that God's given me he's given me meaning like meaning of life was there all along and I just like you can't see it have you have you are you acquainted with Martin Buber Martin Luther or my Martin Martin no not Martin Luther Martin Martin Buber he's a Jewish philosopher no okay well I'm gonna put on good talk about this for a minute because it ties it with my picture and it ties him with him talking about right now is that I ever since I was a kid I've always you know I even now I still think about people who don't have like meaning in their life like what do they do there's if you really do look at Ecclesiastes it's pretty clear that everything under the Sun is vanity so that's all all this temporal pleasure all I guess if you're live your life is sex drugs rock and roll it's gonna all ecclesiastes now it points out all is vanity and it's just like everything under the Sun so above the Sun elsewhere God is outside of time that's where things do have meaning and it's reading Martin Buber and kind of helped me in a stand he points out that yawn he talked about like I I barely understood half that book because it's really hard three but I did get some out of it and it's like it only he's a Jewish philosopher but he almost like explain the Trinity but he talks about how he can't have love without a lover net beloved and it's like you know and love is the thing between the lover and the beloved you know what I mean and that's what that my picture I have that that's that's what I'm getting at is that you have two separate things you have well you have I guess you can see is Mary as the door in Christ is the first aid box that's two separate individual things and that loves relationship between them that's what gives anything meaning and but when you for those listening earlier he he said is it you ask me if my image was God the Father and I said sort of because I that's why I do see it I see it that way as well that that big big rectangle is God the Father and that small square that's us and life is meaningless if there is no God that blunt light bearers isn't meaning right I'd like someone to find a substantial way of explaining things like oh you can make your own meaning like that's a whole nother set of responsibilities you got to give yourself to give yourself a substantial meaning and if you don't you'll be just satisfied and you'll die alone and meet like it's really depressing got like other reasons I'm Christian is because I've felt this and I I and this ties in with why it has such like emotional I've had so many emotional experiences with God realizing I've turned away from them all I because deep down um like that's that's kind of where I've been my deepest existential kind of despair comes from this sort of thing it's like if if if if you if you're listening and you think about and whether whether you're if you're not Christian are you're not spiritual in any sense I'm telling you man there's you're missing out on something if you I don't know what your relationship with your parents were like it's like but tell me about love you had for your parents but love that they had for you and tell me if that means nothing it was yeah I I've not always I've never been a great like I wasn't always the greatest first kid growing up but um you know we were we've all been soldier involved in bad but one day I had something I did something in the past years ago and I confessed to my mother about it now I couldn't because it hasn't talked to her and I felt I felt bad about it so I cussed her and then she looked at me and she said I still love you and it was after a night and it's like it's a thing about our experience right there it's like I felt this terrible guilt and shame that I can't recover from and she said that she loves me doesn't matter but what I did she loves me unconditionally and later uh like months and months later I I still have all my mind whenever I talk to her honestly like it's still haunting me but took me grocery shopping and it sucks kind of but I'm like I'm more or less owe for it but what I'm getting at here is one day she just took me grocery shopping I'm still young like assume she's buying groceries and stuff but um she said you know she she she did this very kind thing for me she drove me home and then she just said like I love you and I hugged my mom and I just woke up I just walk upstairs and I just cried I realize like that right there that's god that's that's that's the love like God as for you and it's like if life is meaningless if that doesn't exist sure absolutely this is the I mean you mentioned the book of Hosea I mean that's a really apt so I tell ya because that that wounded relationship and just how loving and merciful our Father is and havin a few people I think have experienced it I'm I'm delighted that you had a sort of direct experience of that love and that forgiveness and in you know a concrete example mm-hmm with your mother and also in your conversion on a more spiritual level directly with the Trinity and sacraments and the church and so on and so forth you've you've tasted a lot you know but yeah as you as you go through life you're going to have more more challenges and are you're gonna have to build strength upon strength because if you end up in you know another situation where you feel like you're burdened you're going to need to remain flexible and sensitive so that you don't become a hardened middle-aged man with that's concerned only about financial security and old Ledger's and stuff like that right so there you have a whole your whole life ahead of you and I want you to remain flexible and sensitive to what matters most which is that with a relationship with God which you saw in analogy in your mother I've seen it all my mother I've seen it with that picture I was talking about earlier like I see it you see it everywhere once you but once you really think about it and that's and just talking again about that book by Martin Buber this this guy's not even you see he's a Jewish philosopher but he's still he's still got like all truth is God's truth I think what this guy was talking about writing about in this book is true but you can't have love without a lot of a love it it's just that this relationship it's just like two separate individual things people it's like life is meaningless without you know and it's really it's I was thinking I had this picture in my head about like you know people don't Elliot at this apart Evan realizes is it my car all all this new way to stop it's like that's what people want but they don't realize that they can't have that without Jesus Christ like I think and that's one of the reasons why I've said strengthen this all my experiences have strengthening that Catholic understanding of things is that we need Jesus Christ the logos the Word made flesh we need it Jesus Christ to order everything like to like literally order everything because otherwise it's just us falling humans on our own trying to reconcile us or something to ourselves I almost don't sure don't know that made sense but trying trying to be all unified and be happy by your on ourselves all I see right in that picture is little square all of humanity and counted together that's all of us I just do that once career we're not in relation to anything bigger know what I mean it's kind of hard to explain good yeah well I mean what comes to mind is building on a solid foundation that Jesus Christ and not building not building our fancy edifice is on shifting sand because you know in the moment like one one generation of human life is so fleeting that we could build a marvelous tower with all kinds of mansions in it and it's built on shifting sand but it's only with the passage of time it might be the next generation that sees it collapse it's it's only if we build on the solid foundation of Jesus Christ that we will have something that endures and the whole point of philosophy much less theology the whole point even of pagan philosophy is how to live the good life how to have enduring happiness so I mean I'm just I'm just reading today about the Alexandrian school in the early church and Saint Clement of Alexandria and his his pupil his star pupil origin who went astray a little bit from orthodoxy but there was a strong emphasis in that of what exactly what we're talking about you know like we need to build on the solid foundation and the Greek the st. Alexander excuse me Saints st. which I just call him Saint Clement of Alexandria said they're bringing philosophy Greek philosophy was what do you call that with a family bond a test not a testament but we have these different compacts or not contracts but we have like Adam and Eve had one and then the other covenant covenant exactly st. clement of alexandria was saying that the greek philosophy like the high point of greek philosophy with socrates and plato and aristotle yeah it was a that was a covenant before jesus christ came that was a sort of covenant with these greek people and that there was yeah there was truth in there that will lead to the catholic church eventually with the Incarnation which was fourth lining and st. st. Justin Martyr said something very similar earlier I think in the church history he said that all truth belongs to us Christians there's nothing there's nothing true there's nothing true that we should shy away from just because it comes from a pagan or from yeah from even from an atheist or whatever it likes accurately it all belongs to us and at all points ultimately to Jesus Christ and this is why I like about it can to the writings of attica too because it emphasizes it emphasizes the fact that there are elements of saving truth which belong to the Catholic Church but which are outside of her visible boundaries yeah the whole purpose of that is to ultimately have a way of bringing people into full communion so it's a really mysterious economy of salvation yeah a definite most definitely involves saving truths of the Catholic Church which are without without like outside of her visible boundaries so I just wanted to reflect on that it's sort of a general theme that I'm sensing from you know for sure I agree and I can even just all that ironic exactly what you're saying earlier it's like out as Christians we have to you you accept the truth as it is and you know I won't go wrong as you put in better words yeah you take the audience what it is and you just accept it because ultimately that's what truth is it's it's it can be it's painful and that's one of the things that I find a lot of uh a lot of certain worldviews philosophies I think like sometimes they they the de-spawn Oh think about positive things nothing can hurt you and everybody's like no the truth is actually brutal like oh yeah I'll say save my seat when I see ya they see you evangelical Protestants knows even being like Oh singing really it's good at this singing praises to God and all that but their soul is so like Miley and its present he is just thinking like oh man you don't know how much it's gonna hurt but then again at the same time it's like those people were probably spent last time purgatory than I am so it's honestly it's just I'm just not old but young cynical bastards so how are you gonna avoid purgatory that's my question to you how am I going to UM by a going to confession as much as I can and I never Tyrone I know I won't avoid it inevitably but I do know that I just I mean I I mean I can only put this but this way I know in purgatory is the only way out of purgatory is heaven you know I hope I go to purgatory so I'm gonna stay and I know I know is he painful but I know if the only way out Purgatory's heaven and that's what matters to me yeah a lot of saints say that if you aim for purgatory you'll end up in hell so you have to aim to avoid purgatory by going straight to heaven be a saint you have to be a saint in this life okay you have a name for that aim for that you aim for that aim high because you're if you aim low it's what's gonna happen it might not be a happy outcome so just aim a little bit higher every day and gather steam gather strength gather grace build your faith like I said build build build build build always up building and when your friends are trying to distract you and draw you away from the faith which they will yeah will like it whether they're conscious of their animosity or not doesn't matter you don't need to worry about if they understand what they're doing and why okay Jesus said forgive them they don't know what they're doing do you have to do the same thing with you with your friends and even your family if they start trying to pull you out of the church you're gonna have to persist and you're gonna have to suffer with Jesus Christ and you're just you're gonna have to stay in the church and keep your faith strong that's yeah that's my urgent strict warning to you yeah my advice yeah thank you I agree I'm literally gonna write that down right now because like I man that's like that's something was terrifying advice you've ever been given and yet I know it's not true yeah there is in the Second Vatican Council also I know I'm harping on that a lot but a lot of you take documents a lot of beautiful documents I recommend you read all 16 documents especially because it's very controversial among so-called conservative Catholics traditional Catholics right-wing Catholics whatever you want to call them said if accantus and whatnot that Vatican 2 is no good but it is a beautiful set of documents a beautiful council and one of the things they teach is that there's the universal call to holiness I mean this is the traditional teaching right what they're emphasizing it at Vatican 2 the universal call to holiness we have to be Saints and one of my favorite Saints is a very modern saint of the Opus Dei Josemaria Escriva denounced his name right but he was a Spanish Saint the Opus Dei he really emphasized that too becoming a saint in your more mundane ordinary boring unseen unpublicized life that's where it's at that's where it's at and even many of the great Saints like Saint Therese deliciou she was a hidden saint many of the Saints were hidden Saints suffering for Christ suffering for their fellow sinners and suffering for their own sins first and foremost and then suffering with whatever excess they have of penitence and penance applying that to family and friends and even their enemies some of the most touching stories you can read of the Saints is applying their indulgences and all their extreme graces to their enemies like mortal enemies people that are hating on them and trying to kill them and some in some cases successfully killing them really mind-blowing and very inspirational for us little Cubs so do you have any other topics that you really wanted to cover before we wrap up it's been about an hour here and we did 45 minutes of tech support that presentation um no I'm not honestly it's like I I thought about like oh man what am I even gonna say I I kind of said all that I wanted to want to say I admire not been as clear as I wanted it to be but anybody anyone before this thing and it still is thing and thinks what is it what does it what's up with this guy I this put this way the things that I've talked about and I've described in like my my experiences um no very very much my a lot of my unlike understanding of God and and all that it does come from my it comes from my personal like a majority of it comes from my personal experience but but much I have to be fair though quite a fair bit of my personal experience it has been educated and you know it's come from me cease studying you know philosophy and Christian history and Christian philosophy like it's it's so it's not conclude you uneducated say that if it weren't for my experiences here at this Augustine college that I wouldn't I wouldn't have I got believe God's work through this College like my entire life seriously revolves around this college just weird um but without without the experience of being here I wouldn't I wouldn't have the eyes the ID right at the moment I wouldn't I wouldn't see things no idea and here's the thing it's like there's many outside of Augustine like I'm in many other side of this colleges okay I put this many things that are not even Christian I don't have to do with my education anything that have also taught bad will spell them to me and then again also it's it's like you know God speaks to people in certain ways and I believe God's spoken to me through through my experiences and through all this so yeah um and I the reason I say that is because you asked me how I really it's something as a Catholic that I should think about how how how strictly or not a strictly how much I'll humiliate myself that adhere to exact because like I I agree that if I am I am heretical in any way I need to get that corrected and I know that the Catholic Church would do what it can to help me through that after all the church is truly a hospital I can tell you I still I still struggle cry like I'm still even even if I'm I'm a weirdo I'm some ridiculous big guy who can't articulate things or anything even even if I should be humbled what was beyond anyone I'm still full of such pride and in this too I think but yeah you got to get used to that unless you get some extreme graces from God that's gonna Humble you permanently like in a permanent way and make you a saint a saint that will be analyzed like that level of Saint where you're recognized as a saint you're gonna have to struggle with pride that's the big one and it's going to last yeah probably lasts until the day you die that's the sort of pessimistic view yes the optimistic view would be that yeah just keep availing yourself in a worthy manner of prayer and the sacraments as per the church's instructions and you'll squash you know with God's help you'll overcome your pride that's the optimistic view but I've been you know I've been Catholic for 10 years and I'm I don't think my needle has moved I mean maybe maybe I'm more prideful now than ever right I'm not improving I'm not I haven't been improving on that on that metric so don't have too high of expectations although God can do what he wants with you I mean he could make a man he could humble you tonight and you could be permanently humbled right but I don't want you to be too disappointed if tomorrow morning you wake up and you're still yeah oh boy just brace yourself so that's it thanks for coming on the show and thank you for having me I really appreciate your you Kate you're going sticking through all the technical difficulties where they preach it it's my pleasure really nice to meet you really nice to talk to you again nice to see your face right I'm looking at your face right now this green and yellow this era this artwork it's the face of the artist that I'm looking at but well I'll definitely have you back in the future and double yeah we'll keep track by a Facebook and email and all that sort of thing and I'll be praying for you and I give I don't know if you know but I do enroll all of my guests in be in a perpetual Mass no you're gonna be receiving the graces of the mass every day you and your immediate family until the end of time you'll be receiving these graces what you do with those graces is up to you right but they're they're gonna be poured down on your head like so much blood of Christ right it's just like inundating you everyday what you do with it is up to you but I would recommend that you tune into that fact and you avail yourself of all that grace and you make make use of it take advantage of it and become a saint and then come and help me to be exciting that's the idea it's to spread spread the grace and to become a saint and to be ultimately to be happy with God forever so thanks again for coming on and take care of yourself but learn and we'll talk soon about that to you and we'll talk soon about that to you about okay

CVS Live Guest - 2020-02-05 - Lynn K. Russell

I have forgotten the name of my guess Lin K Russell is that right did I get your name right yeah okay sorry I just I had your name and I just I forgot it but you're a Unitarian Universalist and you're also something of an expert on near-death experiences do you all just introduce yourself to my listeners and talk a little bit about what you're excited about well I'm NK Russell I'm a writer um I had the opportunity to research 2,500 near-death experiences and what I was mostly interested in was the learning I mean behind the experiences that I didn't after a few hundred I wasn't interested in what happened because I predicted that I but but I was more interested in knowing where to from there and that was the people of messages was what I was watching okay you're talking about ultimate reality the spirit world afterlife and a sort of thing is that we talking about yes yes and what did you learn what have you been learning have you been streamlining what you've learned into a teaching or a book I've written I wrote a book back in it was published in 2014 and it was called oh it is called and the wonder of you what the near-death experience tells you about yourself and because it did such a it was so well received and everybody just loved it with out now in second the second edition and I've added quite a bit to the new one and so it's just been released on their 3rd 1st of February this year so it's new ok can people find that online like on Amazon or something like that yeah it's also in stores okay and can you tell me and my listeners a little bit about yourself bit of biographical background how are you were raised and what sort of belief systems you might have we gone through and growing up and then as an adult and how old how old you are today and what you did for a living and all its really okay okay um well I'm 81 mm-hmm and so my voice so little cracky that's why I'm right I was raised by an atheist my mother didn't believe in anything and and so I never I didn't really get any spiritual training at all in her home but I was very curious because my grandfather had died and I was about eight or nine around there and so when he died I realized that everybody does I mean we never talked about this stuff at home but I realized that I was going to talk and that was terrible I didn't want to die and so I was quite frightened by the thought of dying and so I am I went to my mother and I assume er what happens when you die and she said nothing you just disappeared there wasn't such a good idea to tell that child but that terrified me I thought oh no I don't want to disappear so um I became very interested in all kinds of religions from that well I think from then but I really started in my teens too and to research religions um we had in earnest and I read just about every kind of religion there was in the world and and the offshoots as well and so uh and I also took catechism by the way just as an added little piece there um because I married a Catholic but I after the marriage was not a good marriage and so we I divorced and after the marriage I went back to school and eventually became a family counselor and I had three kids um so I was a single parent mom with three kids two of them are hyperactive it was like it was quite the story um but I didn't I worked as a family counselor for about thirty years and absolutely loved my job I loved what I was doing and then that when I retired um which was 50 loved almost 15 years ago I am I started to I wanted to write a book that was uh I knew I wanted to be a writer that that that was all that was given but I wanted to write a book and so I had to do research for my book because in my book the woman that was in my book was after projecting or out-of-body experiences and so I wanted to find out could my character in my book um actually do what I had given her to do so I was researching that and I came across nder app which is near death experience Research Foundation and they had a segment on Obie's out-of-body experiences and so I went there and I did some research but I also got hooked into all those cool near-death experiences and uh so I stayed around and just chatted with people provided every day and dr. long dr. Jeffery long asked if um if anybody would be willing to do to volunteer to do a research and I said yeah sounds like a cool thing I was - I was retired now so why not so I that's when I did my 2,500 near-death experiences and and in the beginning as I say I was more interested in I was fascinated by what happened to people what experiences they had but then later I became much more interested in the deeper deeper lessons that were coming back from death experiences mm-hmm so you said you studied a lot of religions you went through a lot of exploration did you settle on you you almost immediately after that or just described the journey into in it Unitarian Universalism if you would yeah I sorry about that I am I am I became a unit too early sadness I became a Unitarian when I was about eighteen so not too far after but I continue to study because Unitarians don't have a Dogma and they're up their principles up they have seven principles that they live by and and the two toothache can be boiled down to two main points if one is respect for all life no matter what and the other one is a search for truth whatever that might be so there isn't one direction with thee with the Unitarians which was perfect for me so that's when I stuck around but as I see it I kept I kept study and even after even in later years and even now I still continue to study I can't just stop I just love hearing north what different thinking's and different ways of seeing things great I want to ask you a little bit about near-death experiences and what you've learned and how it conflicts or contrasts with Roman Catholicism because you mentioned in an email that it's not really compatible do you want to go into depth on what sort of conflict or mutual exclusivity there is between what you've learned and the doctrines of the Catholic Church place yeah sure well one of the things that I learned that I was surprised at was that we don't necessarily have a death experience that echoes what we have been taught but we followed here in the physical life and that was surprising because I assumed all Christians are Christians and and that primary is true but it's not just not the only true so that was one thing the other thing I learned was that the one thing that excited me most was that we gain all complete knowledge everybody know that everything that there is to know and that that was fascinating for me because I loved learning and I I just couldn't get enough and when I found out it like I mean I doubt you find out everything so that was cool is there any difference between the best case scenario and the worst case scenario for any human yeah women T other things the big important points are that um that we create our own death experiences each one of us has an active role in creating the experience that we have and so here's my so we create our own experiences oh no I'm sorry about that example um can I get this sure go for it so okay so my guest is actually on the phone right now and I'm gonna continue asking her questions I've muted her and she's actually speaking to a friend who was ill so I'd want to air that I hope it's muting properly but she said it wouldn't she said she had if I've understood her properly I think she said she's she's back now so here we go he's just anything at all thank you sorry wrong and not a problem um and one of the other things that aside from creating our own experiences there is no judgement and that's one of the big things that's quite different from what religions teach and I would say all religions pretty much okay today and and so um but that doesn't mean that we get out of it that we that we don't have to take responsibility and the consequences we haven't what we call a life review and during the life review we experienced exactly what we have done to others whether that is um good or bad both both directions and so our stoles actually expand actually feel in real life what it was like to that person so if we did something kind and caring and that's what this that's what they would feel and if we did things that were difficult or hard for the other person that's when we would feel but then it doesn't stop there it goes on to those persons the people that those people had um so we were relating to the people they had contact with so that that works very much and that's good um and so that's how that's how we feel that's how we live or experience the consequences of our actions and and feel you know the responsibility and there isn't any chance of saying things like well he did such-and-such first so just paint a little picture hypothetically of the very best case scenario versus the very worst case scenario so let's say there's someone that was only good only kind only patient only virtuous only loving and then on the other end of the spectrum there's someone that was the opposite they lacked every virtue and they lacked humility and they lacked love and what is the ultimate outcome meaning after they've reviewed everything after they live and everything that they've inflicted on others and after they believe it everything that those people that they inflicted on inflicted on others and so on and so forth down through that hierarchy of that web of interconnectedness of interpersonal relationships after all of that when all is said and done what is the outcome for the best-case-scenario person and the worst-case-scenario person okay all right I'll try and see if I can remember is that the soul feels great great joy just overwhelmed with drill legend more happy than we can ever imagine here because we just don't know that level of happiness but they are so thrilled that they were able to help somebody and you know that there isn't a level of helping we they feel the same thrill if they picked up a package for somebody that better dropped it at the same level of joy in the soul as there would be if they took person in and bedlam in o'er orbit or saved someone its if there's no difference kindness is kindness is kindness and so that the other thing that needs and with the worst case can scenario there's a lot of shame and a lot of um anger with oneself and why did I do that and how could I in that kind of thing and to be honest while we nbe i well the life used is happening the person is feeling um great um a great deal of love is still coming - I don't they don't stop feeling this overwhelming amount of luck that just pours to them we're whether they're it doesn't matter where they are or what they're doing or the sadness whichever but it the love is the same always the same now the people who have done things they wish they hadn't will sometimes become very angry or disappointed with themselves and then their guides which by the way are there with them will tell them that it's ok it's just learning experiences and it also depends on our intentions even if the day my wrong what was in our heart when we started to do whatever we were going to do that is more important than the attend than whether email better life so that that's important um and some people who feel that they are not worthy will stop themselves from being able to go all the way to wherever they're going to wind up like I have a kind of experience they they will make themselves stock and they stay in the halfway point but they do it to themselves that that's important to know and so they get to this halfway point and they stop because they don't think they're worthy to continue on and that's very sad because I bet that's their home that's the slowest home and so the soul has stopped itself because but it's learned so it somehow has them learned them it's ok can go on some people some people create hell for themselves and I say it deliberately that way because as I said we take an active role in the experience that we have and um hell is just part of that active role that we create because we are great creators we are amazing creators and that is one of the big things that I learned um in the deeper at the deeper sense of how much we take a role in creating because well it think about it from the histological sense of um if we were if we were created by a source or by a god or by whatever you want to call it when before creation there was nothing nothing but to be nothing nothing nothing and so creation happens instantly because really you know it that would be very very very painful to be above what does that create what does God use to create with well God uses itself its own energy and I'm sorry I apologize to anybody who doesn't like me saying it but I have to because that feels most so we really do create we're creating right this very second and we create everything that we that we experience and sometimes that's blatant that we can see it and sometimes we just don't get it and I certainly didn't for a long time that's for sure and so those are really important lessons another thing happens with people when they get to the other side is they feel so overwhelming that everything is thin and they are everything that it's all connected and that there's only one huge it'd be so what what did God use to create it but had to reduced its own love energy and so that means we are loved power your love and it is that that we've created that we create and how many persons are there in what we what is ostensibly the human race is separation and illusion is there only the one being or are you and I two separate beings really and truly and actually for all eternity you and I will be two separate beings and there are billions of us human beings do you understand my question the question is the one in the many is there only the one is that the only reality or is there individual or you and I different separate individuals for all eternity we are one and and there is nothing but one that's all there is is what okay so this is like the eastern some of the Eastern religions Buddhism and certain forms of certain understandings of Hinduism and a certain thing there's only the one so there is no possibility of being trapped in hell forever ultimately everyone's going to be reabsorbed into the one reality of I guess for lack of it right absolutely and people who put themselves into a hellish kind of experience um when they they can tell all the ones that I studied God out when they when they felt that they couldn't like they would call out for help and they would be taken out or one man was an atheist and had been an atheist most of his wife and but he remembered he found himself in hell and so he remembered of the song Jesus loves me and so he started singing that and he was pulled out of Hill so sometimes our guides come and help us to get out of that nests or anything and another thing that that you like the interested in is that people do see the a being that is like Jesus or Buddha Buddha or you know some some kind of that represents their um idea the I the per could be um but being ruled that that that youth equipped I for example in in their experience is exactly the same as the guide so I think it's just their guides but we create that it looks like our alright deity yeah I mean from my Catholic perspective I just to be perfectly blunt and honest with you I see the guides as demons that are fooling people in this life because they're not they haven't passed on to the afterlife yet they're still alive I think other demons that are fooling people into thinking of it it doesn't matter what you do because you're everything is one and seperation is illusion and ultimately it's only the one reality of God and heaven that awaits everyone doesn't matter what you do so that's from that's my Catholic perspective that's the danger of the Eastern religions and the danger of monism and the danger of your point of view is that it doesn't matter it ultimately it doesn't matter what you do you're gonna end up in heaven because that's the only reality right yes that is you'll be on your right so you can understand why from my Catholic perspective that's that's an evil teaching because we will not strive for heaven if we think that heaven is guaranteed at least I wouldn't if I thought heaven were guaranteed I would relax all of my morals all of my you know right now I'm striving to control my appetites but I'm gonna give that project up if I'm guaranteed to go to heaven right interesting no I wouldn't just see that way and I think people who are atheists can be very moral yeah I agree I agree but I agree that everyone can be moral but there there are you know there are certain things we need to do if we want to go to heaven in from from the judeo-christian point of view there are things that we need to do we need to like Jesus said in the in the Bible if you love me keep my Commandments so there are there are obligations that we have to if we're a monotheists we have to strive to be virtuous and if you tell me if I if I came to believe and it's not going to happen but if it if I came to believe that it doesn't matter what I do I'm going to end up in heaven because the seperation is illusion and the only reality is God in heaven then I'm gonna relax all of my efforts which are you know laughable efforts to today because I've only been Christian for 10 years but I'm gonna relax all of my efforts to control my appetites and I'm going to indulge in my appetites because it feels and I don't know what what to say um because that's your believes and that's I don't I don't interfere in other people's thoughts and believes that I respect that that's where you come from and so well yeah but how do you how do you understand virtue and vice how do you understand that how do you fit that into your worldview when ultimately it doesn't matter if you're vicious or if you're virtuous you're gonna get the same outcome because but for me it means first of all I think we're trained at least in my life I was trained to me virtuous and caring and kind as much as possible but the other thing is that um I think knowing a that I am a part of the source really matters to me and that in order for me to be all that I can be and good and to get back to the source I must be kind and must be good I must help others whatever we are yeah okay so there's a possibility of not getting back to the source to being come on I don't know I know that it will yeah not to clean my breeches it's gonna happen emotionally my brain says well you better look at you know okay so what about I want to ask you about theater and drama and sort of going through the motions pretending okay this is the this is the game life is a game and we're players on a stage and it's theater and you're gonna play the role of mother grandmother sister whatever daughter you have different roles to play family counselor you're a member of this religious nation no I'm talking about you right now in this life you're playing a role you and I are playing roles and we have a lot of drama that goes with that the ups and downs the highs and lows the emotions and all this sort of thing and the drama in and of itself is the point it doesn't matter that ultimately we're all destined for heaven and the unity of the Godhead what really matters is raising the diversity in the drama of this world the theater of it what do you think of that idea a partly right and partly not hmm um I think partly I can because because there is only one only one one being and we are part of it then it really doesn't matter because the we're really just things experiencing this existence and so we can we can experience this existence or we can experience a different existences it doesn't matter you know it doesn't matter that that's irrelevant whether there's different roles people play it's just it's relevant it's all just be which is back to what you're asking yeah I mean I do dairy definitely feel but I take it a step further that there's a reason for the B and not just because we're playing a role um I think there's a reason I believe is that we and we give back to the source in our experience who ever experienced that we have what we are doing we are giving back to the source and so by giving back to the source we um that's the significance of are we not the rules after laws miss cream I want to ask you a two-part question there's sort of two different ends of the spectrum on the emotional spectrum so well on one end you have humor and jokes and levity and laughter on the other end you have tragedy and tears and stuff like that so if you flip through the newspaper I don't know if they have paper newspapers anymore but back in the day used to have the paper newspaper and you could you read the tragedies that happened so many people died or were murdered or raped or whatever on the first couple pages and then you have near the back you have like sports and comics and you can hear it you can have a laugh okay so my question basically is anything funny is anything really funny and or is it just the illusion is it just some sort of trick that we're falling into when we find ourselves laughing at some cartoon or some comic or whatever it is and the other part of that question is is anything really sad or tragic like when we see someone ax-murdered their grandmother is that really tragic is it really sad so can you just talk about those two ends of the spectrum and the reality of joy and sorrow I'm sorry I'm like him joy and sorrow is anything funny is anything really funny like when you find yourself laughing a joke yeah yeah there was a fellow actually yes I mean I'm all like you said I'm 81 and I often laugh at myself I'll be doing something that's jolly I don't mean silly it can be a normal ordinary thing and like for example fretting about so and and I start laughing at myself oh you silly you know that way so and in that way I see life is being you know oh we we we create this silliness for ourselves or we tractor we worry about things that are irrelevant just they really don't matter that they're you know it doesn't matter tomorrow or the next day or you know that kind of thing so that um but but I also have um have-have one man that I that I research that he spend his time inside the light when he was at the other side it was there just humongous light and he entered into the light and while he was in the light he joked around with love with the with the source um and had a great old time together you know so you're certainly humor in that way too I think the things that bring joy are that we are children we really really really are we just we're so naive and so um we don't understand and it's sort of like watching a child struggling or playing and and sayin and finding joy and watching that child be so innocent because we are really are we're not from the point of view of the world above from the spiritual point of view we are as far as pain and sorrow if that been real more difficult because source is is pure love absolute 100% pure love and it doesn't recognize sorrow and M and it knows that we it knows that we have sorrow that's not the point it also knows that we have the ability to take ourselves out of that for so um it's it's like a man-made kind of thing and also um when we have done something really bad like for example you know we're really horrible kind of person and we harm others kill them or whatever um we are still 100% accepted it doesn't matter it's like it's wiped completely away and we are part of the source immediately let's say someone you know and love a young person like under 20 came to you and said well first of all it made sort of paint out a little picture of this person this person is always loving giving generous and joyful happy everything all the positives okay this young person is like a saint and you know this person you know that it's real it's genuine and there's no dark side that's being hidden to the public life this is just who this person is and this person comes to you with a smile on their face and says I'm going to go to the source and you say what do you mean then basically the basic idea is they're going to kill themselves because that's that's the ultimate happiness so you know you can organize a party and everyone's happy and then the person slits their wrists or whatever and goes off to the thesaurus and everyone just as a drink and toasts the memory of this person I mean we could just turn it into a very joyful occasion from your perspective from my Catholic perspective suicide is evil it's intrinsically evil it's always evil and we must avoid it and we have to we have to suffer through this life and all that life brings us but from your perspective this happy-go-lucky joyful person proposing suicide and everyone's prepared for it no one's surprised by it and everyone is in complete agreement with it because it is the ultimate path to happiness is to go back to the source it sort of presents you with a situation where you'd have to admit from your perspective that it's okay to kill yourself and it's a it's something that we should celebrate and not only that but we should all follow this person's example no no but I don't understand where you're coming from suicide is probably the one thing that we do not have an opportunity to choose and people who have committed suicide are told very clearly that this is not a decision you can make oh and if the body that they have left is still functioning now I'm going to qualify it because there are circumstances where this might not happen but I would say 99% of the time when a person commits suicide if their body that they've left behind can still hold life and continue on then they are sent back and they have to deal with the injuries that they get into themselves they need you know because they come here for a purpose we all come here with something a chore or goal or something that we have to do and that's a written in blood that's a contract and we can't get out of it and if we committed suicide we need to go back and finish that now um and the other thing is that we also um have a part in saying the life that we're going to be living before we come into this life and so we need to go back and finish the goal but the other thing is that if the person's body is too destroyed you know we've jumped off a bridge on themselves or something like that shot themselves and they can't live so the body cannot sustain life anymore then that person has two options number one option is they can stay at least at the spirit level and go over and over and over and they have to physically actually relive it by the way um that is they like the pictures left and come to a decision of how they could have worked that out without committing suicide or they can go into the next life into reincarnation and go to the next life and um and it will have all of the exact same elements that the life that they tried to read to get away from and it will have all of those and they just have to do it all over again so you don't get out of what it is that you're trying to escape from at all okay yeah it sounds very very much like Hinduism it's what about the neutral case where someone just says I'm just gonna I'm not gonna be good I'm not gonna be evil I'm just gonna sort it watch TV and eat snacks it's sort of like you know that would be evil from a Catholic perspective but from your perspective it might be sort of a neutral position like I'm not going to be really good really bad I'm just gonna chill take care of myself what what do you have to say with that sort of neutral stance I think that's probably most of us oh yeah yeah I do I think most people get up go to work come home do their thing pay their bills as much as again get into debt you know have anger have joys you know we're just people and so I think that that is that is a very average okay what about the Saints I have Catholic saints do you have Saints in your type of monastic worldview are there like hindu saints or buddhist saints or uu saints who are the heroes of your point of view I don't have a hero no I don't dare there is no no Jesus or no boudoir no um Muhammad or whatever you know it just isn't there my my only thing is is the sort that's my that's why I guess deity okay there's no one that believes what you believe in the history books that believed what you believe now and who lived even better than your living your philosophy they lived it even better than you did and they're an example that you could strive to live up to there's no one in the history books that believed what he believed and lived it better than your currently we go okay there's people I look up to I mean you know any mother tree so I think is fabulous um Albert Schweitzer um you know and and there are wonderful in you know um both the Indian guy I can remember um Gandhi honey yeah so I mean like I I have people that are human beings that I very much look up to but I don't see them as being anything more than human beings that are making better choices then then some of the rest of us yeah yeah that's what I meant the Saints are just human beings they're sinners just like you and I from my Catholic perspective but they're they're examples of how to live and how to sacrifice on how to love and how to die so speaking of death I guess it's the end of our interview here but before I let you go I want you to sort of have a chance to say anything that you wanted to get in on this particular interview maybe there were topics we didn't cover or maybe you want to promote your book or direct people to a website or is there anything you want to say before we wrap up well I would say first of all that the main focus of my book is to teach each one of us how magnificent we really are we are so down on ourselves in life and stress and problems and we really are very very beautiful and that's what I want to teach people how beautiful we are um and you can find me just about anywhere just google my name and you'll find me um I'm on Facebook LinkedIn Twitter and I'm also answer questions when I have time on Quora but I don't do that too much these days because I'm busy with my book so that I guess is it not child and the name of my book is the wonder of you what the near-death experience tells you about yourself excellent well thank you so much for taking the time and for putting up with my Catholic perspective I know it's it's it's different from your own but I love and respect you for who you are and I agree with much much of what you what you teach and what you believe so there's not there's no white agonism for me there's only love okay okay all right thank you very much for the opportunity to chat with you my pleasure hopefully we'll keep in my pleasure hopefully we'll keep in touch okay god bless bye

CVS Live Guest - 2020-02-05 - Nathan Ormond

I'm live with Nathan Ormond Nathan how are you doing I'm good thank you how are you I'm doing very well I've had you on before but maybe just catch us up a little bit how you been doing what you've been doing how's your faith journey and all that stuff okay sure I guess we're now I probably am NOT a Christian anymore really of any denomination and maybe maybe some liberal types would kind of count me as well but yeah and I'm more in the ADA Gnostic camp where I sit right now and over the past four five months of that okay and well this is bad news for me but talk me through the journey hear what happened yeah sure so I guest online through some of the people I was talking to and I got talking to some people who do this thing called like Street epistemology so I've got an interviewer a couple of interviews with Pine Creek that I did I split some people on a discord server that's dedicated to that Street epistemology as well and and I think that that got me to reduce my confidence in some of the kind of core claims of Christian theism and then I think just studying studying philosophy as well and look looking at textual criticism things like that has just made me realize at least at least the version of Christianity that I was holding to I I can't at the minute and do too just not thinking but those particular things are true anymore okay I just noticed our friend Matthew Murdock and Lord Mozart 308 are in the live chat so I just want to give a shout out to them but yeah so how would you explain your conversion to Christianity and then you're following in in very meta terms meaning that you're going beyond the arguments maybe maybe not a purely psychological explanation but sort of an objective a nominal logical description of what what exactly do you think happened and so I think yeah I think I think in the first instance when I started becoming a Christian and it's really it's really difficult to separate out that kind of phenomenological thing from like the psychological I suppose and in the first instance I think it with like a like a so as always becoming Atman and becoming an adult dealing with the real world and also dealing with leg trauma from my past as well I think religion helped me to make a lot of sense of those things and and then I started to I started his first see it as like a pragmatic truth and and then I I thought well maybe maybe there's some correspondence here too to an actual ultimate reality that sits behind there so it's not just that it works pragmatically and then it's completely untethered from from any substance and then I think I went deeper and deeper kind of into like conservative evangelical Christianity I guess and I guess that's the form that I find intellectually untenable at the minute at least and I think I think the movement out was very difficult as well if it I think and like I think I thought physically kind of sick for a while actually and as a result of you know like these things that I really thought were true and important stuff being being challenged and trying to trying to fight to understand them through that old lens and yeah I guess now it just doesn't make sense in that same way anymore but one way one way I couldn't make sense of it through the old lenses I could say maybe like Calvinism is true and I've just been reprobated by the gory or the Calvinist God or something so do you believe in an uncaused first cause are you willing to go that far and I wouldn't say that that's something so what are the alternatives to having an uncaused first cause in your view well first there's like a load of assumptions involved in that but there's have you ever listened to and the discussion between Frederic Kapil stone and Bertrand Russell on the contingency not long ago and Sir Frederick coppleson was a Catholic philosopher and theologian I think black friars College in Oxford which is like the the the Catholic and what you even call them like seminary order but the Catholic College Oxford Bertrand Russell obviously the kind of famous atheist and they had and this series of discussions on reasons to believe in God and basically ahem they go through this this contingency argument so calm person saying you know things don't can take the the cause of themselves within that within themselves so then like this kind of regress back to it back to the first cause and butter it's all kind of replies what maybe I can demonstrate your fallacy is this and every every man has a mother therefore there's a mother of all men or something like that and then they kind of you know go on and discussing this topic and it just reaches the point where I think there's basically an impasse essentially on whether it's necessary to posit an omnipotent being guess that first cause you know you could you might as well just say well the universe itself is necessary or and I think all things all things given that we know about like modern physics as compared to like medieval metaphysics and stuff you know do we do we really even know how the universe functions metaphysically enough to say and that there must be a first cause or what what the rules have got and I'm certainly not someone who knows enough to say something like that I've just got no idea to be honest yeah well the act important see we wrote that the ancient Greeks took I think is a good one everything that's changeable here has a certain amount of potential that can be activated to a greater or lesser degrees and you know classic examples of seed like an acorn growing into the mighty oak it doesn't have to manifest that potential it doesn't have to actualize the potential doesn't have to but it can't right it's just like the zygote in the mother's belly doesn't have to thrive in the real world it could be aborted or it could die of natural causes many ways for potential to be snuffed out but to say that the universe the material universe is necessary is to say necessarily logically necessarily that everything that it is now is the actualization of an eternal potential and that potential is infinite meaning that there's no there's no end to it in the future either so there's no there's no there's an actual infinity behind us and necessarily an actual infinity ahead of us in time do you accept that much philosophically and I'd say on the on the first account of talking about the potential in the Acorn stuff like that I mean I think that to use that in the same sense to describe things on that macroscopic level it sounds kind of like an you know like like like in scholasticism when they talk about kind of like sympathies and antipathy is flowing through the air and now we kind of describe things in it in maybe different terms it's all I can you know like the desire of an object to move in a certain direction things like that and I don't think even even if you get into like a 1700s kind of physics and stuff and they're talking about well maybe it's corpuscles or all the monads or something and that's what's really in the object with the motive to it to move it or whatever and I just don't think that we know anything like like I don't think we're even scratching the surface to say that this is really what the universe is like that there's there's really this thing that is but sorry but yeah on the macroscopic level when you're talking about the universe is infinite in the past or infinite in the future I mean I suppose maybe in some bizarre mathematical way but I don't understand it could be I mean I don't think I don't think it is but I'd never say you know I don't even really have a belief about it because I it's something that I have such little knowledge about okay well there are very few ways that something cannot be right this is a strainer of some up Spinoza it cannot be because it was never brought into being like that the building that I thought that we haven't built yet right it cannot be because it was destroyed like the building that did exist it was built and it was destroyed okay and then there's the not being that is just the consequence of logical necessity it can't be because it's impossible like the square circle so there really aren't that many ways to not be and Spinoza famously said that if it's possible for God to exist then he necessarily exists because the only way he could not exist is through logical impossibility so if it's possible for him to exist he necessarily does exist because he can't be created or destroyed by his very nature of my definition so this is the suspense point of view and I think it's logically sound you're free to pick at that or to just die behind agnosticism if you like but pardon the the disparaging comment there but that's how we see if Gnosticism sort of as a hiding place you know in the complexity of philosophy and the complexity of Natural Science and the complexity of the natural world are plenty of hiding places if you want to hide away and you can you can use the fancy label with Gnosticism for that if you want but this is not an attack on your characters just it's just a rage that I have against agnosticism so don't take it personally but yeah this idea that if it's possible for God to exist he must necessarily exist can you just sort of respond to that one thought of Spinoza please and this also sounds kind of like Malcolm's ontological argument and I I think that essentially what this shows is yes if if God exists God exists necessarily but reality still controls whether something exists or not like you can't you can't just define something into reality by adding exists to its kind of description yeah and now bouncing back to this you know universe which isn't necessary I understand necessary being to be eternal a temporal not subject to change but you obviously have a different notion of a necessary being like it could be complex if composed of parts it could be subject to change like the material universe obviously is so we have a very very different understanding of what the necessary being has to be can you just talk about that I mean but I'd even go as far as to say I mean I don't really even know what I mean by saying something is necessary or contingent like I I mean may in like the small the small set of logical problems or may come across in my life I can use these terms and they might help me solve riddles but when it comes to really like getting to the fundamental nature of what the universe is and I'm talking about something being necessary or contingent like I don't really understand what these concepts mean and when we get into into like really really what's going on with it I understand as far as my kind of faculties what will allow me that I could you know like I could say for example and necessarily if if P then Q isn't it late like some kind of relationship like that but the like it like again just me just me using these kind of terms to describe my experience as best I can and make sense of the world doesn't even mean that that's really what's going on there I don't think I've got any way of knowing that that's really really what's happening in the universe yeah so when it comes to like then talking about like a necessary being behind everything like I genuinely am not even sure what what that actually means beyond like and you know like I could I could pretend but I knew what it meant but yeah I want to sort of walk you through really quickly and amateurishly the modal argument of Blessed John Duns Scotus is that okay yeah sure so you admit that there is something in this material world like for example you yourself you do exist as a material being right yeah I think so yeah so let's just for the sake of argument and you're free to you know this could be you don't need to commit 100% but let's just say that you exist okay so you you are manifest in reality apparently and we'll just go with it we'll just we'll just take the appearances as reality and in the case the reason I chose you as the object not the fork on your table or whatever the reason I chose you is because when you deny your own existence you're affirming your own existence so it kind of nails you down to where you can't really deny it the act of denying is affirming it so that's why I chose you as the object but the fact that you exist now and the question of if this is real or if it's Memorex that's a different philosophical question right like is the arrow of time actually passing sweeping through this exact moment of time right now we don't need to dwell on that I don't want to go down that rabbit hole a theory of time B theory of time all these sorts of things but the fact that you exist right now that's a manifest fact and you are there are you know we can I think I think you will admit that your parents were instrumental largely responsible for bringing you into being through the marriage act and however that happened whether it was in a lab or whether it was the old-fashioned way but you know you're willing to admit that your parents were causes of your existence right sure okay so so this whole idea of manifest reality I'm getting a little bit off-track but the basic idea maybe we should start with an inanimate object because it's gonna be a lot easier if I'm if I'm right now I'm pressing a button on my keyboard in front of my computer and the key in in one split second in a moment in time that button is being depressed by my finger which is being moved by my forearm and my shoulder and ultimately by my my brain and my brain and my will and the decision that I made to press this button okay consciously or unconsciously freely or in a way that is not free or that has a limited freedom doesn't matter okay my my will or my decision to type causes my finger to depress that particular button at this particular time so there's a there is within this instant there's a chain of causality and it's it's an essentially ordered series of causes and effects within the moment and we can disregard any of the temporal stuff that's going that led up to this moment or that follows this moment we're just dealing with the moment it's called an essentially ordered series because it's limited to that vertical stream in the moment it's a it's a synchronous simultaneous series of causes and effect so my will is above my brain and my brain is above my arm my hand and my finger and my whole physical body is above a key and the key is depressed and there's there's a hierarchy there my will is more perfect than my body and my body is more perfect than the keyboard and this is this is all a blessed John Duns Scotus so the idea is if we look at this essentially ordered series and pauses mm-hmm there is necessarily a first member even if that first member it's isolated now of course because we're isolating it from past sort of accidental AHS in effect accidental series and from accidentally ordered holiday also so we're isolating it from those but it doesn't mean that that first memory is not a member of those but I'm just isolating it and so the main point here is that there is a first efficient cause at every moment in time for every essentially ordered series of causes and we can we can know because it is not repugnant to being as this is a scoliosis term it's not repugnant to being for me to cause a keyboard key to move it's unnecessary it's a necessary fact it's it's in this it's it is necessary that it is formally possible this is a technical language it's formally possible or such a thing to occur right so there is there it is formally possible it's a necessary fact that it's formally possible for an essentially ordered series to exist and we know that essentially ordered series has a first member in terms of efficient causality and because we have isolated it from the temporal series on the horizontal plane the accidental causes and the accidentally ordered series of causes there's nothing repugnant to being to having an a temporal first cause a first efficient cause that is not subject to space and time and so because nothing could bring that into existence or take it out of existence nothing can act on it because it's formerly possible it's necessary so there is unnecessary first efficient cause which is a temporal that's what everyone calls God so that's a really sloppy summary of one part the first part of Blessed John Duns Scotus is modal proof for the existence of God so it does away with a lot of the questions about the Eternity of time and the material universe and it focuses it's it's an a a posteriori proof meaning that it deals with reality as we find it manifest right now and it takes as its necessary premise the manifest reality that we see all around with it with causes and effects and objects and these sorts of things and then it deduces from the fact that these are not repugnant to being that they're formerly possible it deduces from that that they're necessary and that these essential essentially ordered series of causes are necessary and there is necessarily one a temporal first necessary efficient cause so just I just wanted to throw that out there you can you can go away and chew on it study it read the actual text blessed John Duns Scotus but I wanted to bounce that off you and see if you found it at all interesting and if it was a different Avenue from what you might have seen in for example st. Thomas Aquinas is five ways and stuff like that yeah I still don't understand how it doesn't commit that same fallacy of saying everything has it cause therefore there's a cause of all things which which is tautologies and I know maybe I've missed something there and the second thing that sounded strange to me was saying it's formally possible therefore it's necessary and I don't understand how that follows oh that was Spinoza that was out of Spinoza if there are only three ways that something could not exist being brought into being being taken out of being or logically impossible because what's what what's cordis does is he shows that it's not impossible to have an a temporal burst efficient cause in at least one essentially ordered series of causation okay so he shows this it's not repugnant to being to have an a temporal first efficient cause in an essentially ordered series of causality okay so he shows that and then he says well the only way that temporal burst efficient cause in an essentially ordered series would not exist because it could not be brought into existence or taken out of existence so therefore the only way it could not exist is if it were impossible and because it because we have just shown that it's possible therefore it's necessary that's going back to Spinoza's thing okay I see so yeah I mean I mean I'd have to I'd have to look more to be able to say but it makes sense a bit more now yeah might be an interesting route to take but this whole this whole notion of agnosticism I'd like to zoom in a little bit on your agnosticism what are the limits to your agnosticism are you agnostic about your agnosticism or do you know with do you know with some sort of certainty that you are agnostic and that you have you mapped out the domain of your agnosticism perfectly imperfectly or you have some doubts about how far and wide your agnosticism has contaminated everything I've I've no idea really I mean I might like things like like metaphysics probably and most of that sort of stuff and yeah I don't really know okay coming from the other angle what are some of the sorts of things you're absolutely 100% certain of convinced oh like one plus one equals two for example and like I'm thinking think is probably the only the only real sort of order that I am whatever I am I'm having an experience is that the only one or that's the most certain one that's the only one that I'm like I put like a hundred percent certainty on and then like other things on top of that are not less than 100 percent I think okay and do you enjoy this headspace or is it a source of anxiety and insecurity existentially for you I mean I'd say from like coming out of my Christian theological beliefs before that and there's been psychological difficulty with that and but I actually think that it's somewhat somewhat made me a better person because I don't have I don't have the confidence that I'm I'm a hundred percent right and have the God of the universe on my side which makes me more more humble in the way that I try and deal with people in the way that I deal with problems in in life I think I'm more I'm more with people rather than having like this us versus them attitude against the world and not participating in reality the same where the people are and just kind of waiting for heaven to come or something or like it take stances on things like and climate change fretwork be like oh there's a new and I know people have different theological interpretations but I say be like oh well there's a new heaven and new earth coming someday so why is something like that matter or and and I don't think that they were good I I don't think it was good to kind of be that way so I think in in some ways I mean I don't have the kind of certainty of an afterlife or anything like that but I mean I think realistically if there's nothing after death and there's nothing to be worried about and I think that if there is a God who exists it it if it's all good it can't be a god but does eternal conscious torment and so okay I used to work for the Mafia in another here at a very low level position but one of the people ordered a mail-order catalog a mail-order bride catalog from Russia where a bunch of women in it you flip through the book and you choose which woman you want to marry and of course he bought this on someone's credit card it wasn't his own credit card and whatever but um I you know I looked through the book and I thought you know some of these women are hideous some are attractive whatever but the idea is an interesting one you know you can order this woman and then she'll be shipped over and you can get married whatever so and it might or it might not work out at any stage right like I mean they might not accept your second transaction on the credit card and you just don't get the woman at all so where were you with Jesus Christ were you browsing through the catalogue or had he come over and he consummated the the wedding like the marriage how far had you gone because it sounds like either you never knew him and so he never loved him or you were in love with just the picture of him or you were in love with him and you but you're selfish so you divorced him because it was too hard what which one of those is the case for you do you think I mean I don't think that necessarily even like accurate descriptions of the available options like I mean well if we if we just take a look at my actions say going into private and crying and praying for hours in reading entire books of the Bible for hours I would say like actions like that on somewhat you know like hey this is this is what's very frustrating is what theists want to do because it makes them cut is the the you will you just never really got it like I get it no I like I got it I was a hundred percent in and you know I was convinced this was real and I was convinced that I was that spiritual warfare was real I was convinced that and actually my my purpose in life was to try and like sacrifice my own well-being and just just do everything I could to try and convert people to Christ and try it like I was genuinely convinced of of all of these things and so if it I think to say I think so well you know you just kind of did it didn't get it you don't you know you didn't and then to say what to say you didn't know Jesus well this is not if there is such a person there well that's not through any lack of trying on my behalf and I think that would only say something about the character of this person again that's where maybe the Calvinism starts to make sense maybe it's just this this this person who preordained evil in the world that that would be possible and yeah but in my analogy I'd like you to stick to my analogy with this mail-order bride booklet so maybe you know the photo she looked really hot in the photo and you paid your money and she came over and she was short and hairy and ugly and stupid and smelly so you wanted to get your money back because she sort of catfished you that's another option there many many options but just use this mail-order bride example and try to describe to me what is it with Jesus Christ was he a catfish would is there no such person or is he just not what you thought he was going to be it's that is that I think and it's well I mean if we to go literally into it is that I think that and Jesus was someone who thought that they were the Messiah and died and didn't have any divine so it's not we thought your say right yeah but it depends it in terms of like what what that actually means is that depends what you you know how do you look at that like so so someone like is it Albert Schweitzer who who went who thought the exact same thing but then is still a Christian for the rest of his life goes and builds a hospital in some some island with people people don't have access to health care he studied to be a doctor beforehand spends the entire his life treating these people built in churches things like that but all the time thinks that Christ died a man with no divine attributes describes his God as a hope and not a fact well I mean are we gonna well he's not a real Christian then because because he's got those sorts of like I don't I don't know yeah I'm not trying to I'm not trying to put you down or put you on the spot it's just to find out what happened like I mean I I admit that I might be wrong in that Jesus Christ might not be what I think that he is right I'm right there with you I'm ready to abandon Jesus Christ right now you know if you can show me that he's not what the Church teaches that he is it's not like I am it's not like I'm 100 percent certain if I were 100 percent certain it would not be faith right if faith means that I don't have that certainty faith means I trust without certainty I am sorry if I have certainty I have certainty and I have certainty and God the Father but I don't have certainty in in a messiah the Jewish Messiah how could i how could I possibly have certainty in that other than by the grace of God you know I do have I do have a lot of confidence right it's when it falls short of Honor percent certainty because I'm fallible I'm fallible a fallible human being so I'm not putting myself above you and I would hope that no theist would put himself above you or put you down for following the truth wherever it leads you it is going to be disappointing for a Christian to find out that someone rapidly came in and quickly exited obviously that's disappointing I'm disappointed I had no idea about this you know but what has the reaction been like and you said you gave a hint that you've sort of been turned off a little bit by some of the reactions you've had from Thea some of that's in the theory or in practice that you've actually experienced negativity but what's the reaction been from both sides of that theists non-theist line well they're me I mean from from the non-theist side and I'd say people want to be tribal and so people who are who are theists want to have their tribe atheist ones have their tribe and I don't like and atheism I I don't like and the kind of identity and a lot of the stuff surrounding it so I've also kind of got it from that end as well where it's like well if you're if you're thinking these things you have to you know you have to be an atheist now here's how we here's how I can define it so as you are included and I you know you will hold the propositions that you know that we hold kind of as assert almost and then I think the the tribal reaction from the theists side is well you've got this foods versus then spiritual warfare worldview thing going on so to want to make sense of what's going on with me well it's obviously I'm just in love with my sin it's obviously just this Satan tempting me and it couldn't possibly be that I actually who's just following the truth and there's none of that involved it's it has to be you know like that that I'm evil and delivered at a but kind of stuff is that the impression you get from me and I think I think maybe from was it to question you got the impression I get is a little bit not not of that but of that you just you know you never knew Jesus or you never and I but I could be being a bit presumptuous there and but I assume that's maybe what you think of it well I mean I from my perspective I mean I I think you're wrong about Jesus but you think I'm wrong about Jesus too right so that is it complete there's a complete symmetry there so we can't take the high ground neither of us there's a symmetry you think I'm wrong look Jesus I think you're wrong about Jesus right I'm not saying I'm not saying glycon it's some some kind of like moral defect in you which is why you believe this I think that's the difference no no I never meant to imply that I'm sorry if I did but the reason I presented it in terms of a really shoddy and criminal analogy of a mail-order bride catalog is because it's because it is a dirty and messy affair our struggle to find the truth right like I mean and as I've admitted to you I might be wrong about Christianity I mean I don't have I don't have certainty right so you know I I come across as smug and that's one of the common you know insults that gets hurled at me is that I'm smug but that's just my Scottish heritage shining through but no I I mean I think you should follow the truth wherever it leads and never ever ever ever ever ever pretend to be something you're not just to please people and that's that's the fast-track to depression right there you've got to be yourself you got to be authentic the image that comes to mind for for me is more of a city map like a street map where you've got your GPS and you can your destinations over here and you're over here and there are all kinds of ways to get to the destination and people get excited when your car is facing the destination but there's so many twists and turns on the way you might not even end up going there even if you're headed toward it and you're even right on the same street and it's right it's two blocks ahead of you you might take all kinds of twists and turns and end up going back where you came from god only knows how this all plays out but people my point here is with this analogy with the street map and GPS is that people are going to get very excited and start cheering whenever you're oriented toward their goal and they're gonna they're gonna get disappointed and boo when you're oriented any other way but what we need to do is relax and say that each person's on a journey and the best we can hope for is authenticity in that journey that you will listen to your GPS right what is your GPS well it's your conscience and it's the available information and its history and its philosophy theology everything you know with unnatural science everything we've got everything there to help us and even fictional stories and the myths and everything you can use everything but what we need to do is we need to love and respect each other enough and trust each other enough to give each other space so they're not pressured and then making crappy decisions about the most important thing which is first things we're gonna you know ultimate reality and what what's important in life so yeah there's no pressure for me whatsoever right so where do you go from here philosophically and what's what are you excited about do you want to escape from your agnosticism are you just gonna sort of lounge in it and I mean I don't think I I don't know it depends were and thinking about these things kind of leads me and I I'd be for example like I I still want theism to be true and I don't want metaphysical naturalism to be true and those are those are my natural biases and I I mean I'm still I'm still exploring these things and thinking about them I guess and and just trying to be as honest in my inquiries I can be on all on all fronts because I think that they're fascinating and important questions whatever that kind of and conclusions are so one of my diagnostic maps is a sort of a there are three zones on it like there's God and not God and then the center overlapping part of the Venn diagram has both God and not God so monotheism is in the center there's God and there's not that they both exist okay monism says only God exists so that some of the Eastern religions talk like that Chile and the guest that I interviewed today she's a Unitarian Universalist and she thinks like I do and then they're nihilists on the other side of the spectrum that think only not God exists right so when you couch it in the stark terms it's kind of hard to be comfortable with nihilism or to say that only not God exists only the contingent exists but you will maybe slip be a slippery guest because you your agnosticism allows you to not commit to a direct correlation between material universe being necessary and the contingency that most lost first throughout the history of time have joined with a necessary to being right I like that that it's not contingent and that that there you sort of wriggled your way out of that association but when you think about monism when you think about the you know so I heard solipsism when you think about Buddhism or Hinduism or any of these are the Eastern religious are you attracted to that and on the other end of the spectrum with with nihilism and you've already said that you don't like the naturalism but I don't think anyone's attracted to nihilism but so there's really nothing over there for you but with the bond ISM that might be a safe place a sort of compromise where you could have your God you could have your theism but it's it's a monism there have you toyed with that idea at all I mean yeah I've kind of thought about it I think I could defend almost any of these positions but to be truly honest I don't have any idea as to which one's really really true I mean like for example there are some really appealing things about monism and and weird you know you know I get going all the way back to amenities and zeno and all those kind of arguments and then you know like like change change and becoming and constant kind of works and that but then like on the naturalist side again there's there's really compelling arguments for and so like I get against against the being something special about consciousness or get and then and then you've got like Jul ISM I couldn't work it argue for Jul ISM and there being a soul that could argue for me Plato or Descartes I think I think epistemic lis and this is so this isn't a metaphysical position that this is an epistemic position of idealism which I hold where I'm saying the only things I really know like my own in a mental world and that I know the qualia that appear before them and but I have no direct access really to anything else to be to be sure of it so yep yes sorry you go oh you just brought to mind Immanuel Kant what do you think of his world you yeah I get again intra interesting but I don't know enough about it to say that this is definitely the one that's got it right like an maybe maybe he has I did I'm just not sure like like for example I'd be tempted to say oh yeah this guy really knows what he's talking about but then you've got you know like someone like Ryman comes along and rejects the axiom that parallel lines can't meet and then Einstein comes along and builds on top of that and it turns out that can't completely wrong about his theory of like space and mathematics and stuff and everything well if he's wrong on that one then what about like he stopped chipping away at the whole thing like how much do we really know about what's going on here and I I just am not sure yeah what about existentialism as a sort of comforting place to grapple with your existence the mystery of it and the sort of do-it-yourself let's build value let's build meaning let's build a story let's build self and let's you know we can we can even make virtue ethics if we want to with existentialism so what do you think of that I I see big and resse collar and cuff problems with that in myself like you know Raskolnikov the main character and crime and punishment who is trying to kind of be the ubermensch himself and kind of just ends up murdering someone and becoming bitter and wretched and eventually Christian but I mean I I don't think that my nature is fundamentally good and so I think if if my worldview is something to like that there's there's just a kind of there's a kind of arrogance involved and all of these kind of lower maybe the low is not the way all the all these more sort of sinister nihilistic attitudes towards the world become like the driving forces so then it just essentially boils down to like hedonism or something like that logically I late like there's no there's not really on such a worldview where I'm just building things like building meaning up for myself from first principles there's not really such things as like an ability or and the you know like the the beautiful or the girl that apart from like hedonism and selfishness egoism so and there are problems with that for me okay and what about stoicism anything attract you therefore for you to apply to your life to make years to you know just to make it bearable and possibly and I mean like the kind of the kind of pop stoicism of not letting things and outside of your control affects you whatever but again I think I think I probably reject the kind of deterministic attitude of the Stoics towards the world as then oh so you believe in free will or for all intents and purposes like and you know like it like I think it's it's a useless thing to argue against basically I mean it might be the case that it's not there but again with like the epistemic idealism thing it's like it might be the case that metaphysical naturalism is true but that would be a pointless way of coming to the world because fundamentally we experience it as the ghost in the machine so do you do you admit that happiness is the goal of philosophy do you believe that and like a look at eudaimonia type thing yeah possibly I think I think I think so I think it should be it should be to to aim at kind of like flourishing to aim and amen the good whatever that is and what would the alternative it be well I think basically I mean look you can still employ philosophy to this end but I think the alternative is is this kind of nihilism which just boils down to hedonism yeah yeah but hedonism is kind of fun isn't it I mean you you have given yourself a certain amount of license to relax your virtue your your striving for a virtue you can you can have a few more cheat days on every single virtue no and I mean I think whatever whatever it's actually going on therefore virtua thix to kind of like have something to it but that doctrine still hurt so it's that works so when you have those cheat days you know you kind of veer off the mean a little bit and you tend towards those those vices and then and then there's a you know like it might be it might be the most and pleasure in the short term but then ultimately you're kind of like leader leading yourself to a lot more suffering by lifestyle kind of falling apart and messed up sleep habits etc so I uh yeah I don't I think I think it's still the same no it's not works in the same way so if Jesus Christ is not your hero in any way shape or form who could you look to as an example of how to live well at just some some household names who who comes to mind for you and I'd still say Jesus in that sense and they say this is where I say like and what liberal Christians might I'm still like looking at the the kind of like passion narrative as something you know having Avex of deep important thing things in it that might be relevant to life and but then I'd say there are similar things in a lot of religious stories or if if we just generally look to the the type of fiction that tends to kind of like resonate with us lake joseph campbell's kind of like hero myth archetype and that sort of thing I think there's there's like a truth that's being conveyed in these types of narratives about how how to be a person how to conduct yourself about these transcendental categories the good the beautiful and how to kind of wake incorporate them into your life or live in that certain way and it's not there it's not there you know like you watch you watch a hero movie once and you get it right or something but it's something to be aimed that's kind of like coming through in these in this okay what about neoplatonism do you believe in the one that all of the virtues all the perfections lie and one in the same source do you firmly believe that or is it you just hope you really hope that that's the case and I'd say I hope it's the case and I don't know like I have no idea how I could even really like really demonstrate that to be true and because I dunno like the yeah I I just have no idea how we could actually like get it back what about your a reason like pure wood by pure reason we can say well let's assume the opposite let's assume that the perfections lie in different directions and so you're moving towards health and you're necessarily moving away from justice and and life and beauty and goodness and then you're moving towards justice but you're moving away from the truth I mean it just it's a reduction to absurdity it cannot be the case that they don't lie in the same direction therefore they lie in the same direction and then the same source and that's what everyone calls God and I don't see why you would have any problem with that whatsoever I mean an eighth grader could understand that and assent to that of course you know sin and the weakness of our will and the the darkness of our intellect accounts for it since the fall but really I find out I really find it hard to believe that an adult would shy away from this very very simple explanation that I just gave about all the goods lying in the same direction what do you say um well for me I'm genuinely just not sure if the these like these Evo's these ideas these forms actually exist like it seems like they kind of do and you know like and like I said when I take that epistemic position of idealism I'm saying well I'm actually kind of you know I'm sort of certain of these carrot Fifi's em and I'm sort of certain of these concepts that things seem to participate in like say equality and in a way which I'm not really like certain of the phenomena in the in the physical world and but can i how can i really say that that's a thing like it seems to also be pretty parsimonious that and say like theirs but that something like consciousness with its ideas and things arises out of the material nature of a kind of mathematical universe but then what does maths even mean without these kind of ideas and forms and and it's like we just get into this realm of things that I don't even really know what I'm talking about anymore so what about authority I'll let you go l will let you go which is one last question what about authority I submit to my local bishop and I submit to the Pope and I submit to the ecumenical councils and I submit to the church at large and of course I submit to Jesus Christ and God the Father and the Holy Spirit and there's there's a lot of submission in my walk with God did you taste that did you sample that and have you shrugged that off and are you now left with no authority or with a sort of tentative respect for human authority or just talk a little bit about authority from your special um I think I I mean I think because there's no kind of like an you know Divine Right of Kings theology politics kind of thing behind stuff for sure it's it's a bit more tentative in that respect but I do think the moral what whatever morality is and if it it manifests itself to me like that things are good or bad and so and I'm kind of like an subservient to the moral law as it manifests itself to me now there may not actually be a metaphysical law that sits behind that thing that's presenting yourself to me but and that I can't do anything else than kind of like when when it appears to me that it it's wrong always and everywhere to torture babies and all of the fun and that I try and like prevent that sort of thing from occurring or am opposed to it or whatever and so I guess I guess in that sense I'm subservient to the to the good that's my authority and then insofar as like government legislation is in accordance with what appears to me is the good then and okay I guess the the objection to this could be well if it's just your kind of like your whims of what your notions of what right is and then isn't that just kind of you know couldn't that just be anything aren't you just bowing down to yourself and I I mean like again I don't know and I don't think I'd epistemic ly have any way of ever knowing more than as it manifests itself to me anyway even if there is something real that sits behind it and so so yeah I just I okay I guess things have Authority as they conform to what I see is good so anything else you want to get off your chest or say to my listeners before I let you go or I'll let you have the final fire and yeah just thanks for having me honor thanks for listening to me my kind of incoherent rambling on these topics not at all not at all it's a real pleasure to talk to you and I wish you luck I hope you don't mind that I will be praying for you I don't see why you would like yeah yeah and any of your family members praying for you is that the idea of Christian family members I don't have Christian family members I was gonna go and I was gonna check out a Catholic Mass though this Sunday you'll possibly happen it's yes I am very happy so thank you so much once again we'll talk soon and take care of yourself okay talk soon and take care of yourself okay yeah no problem thanks Mike

CVS Live Guest - 2020-02-08 - Matthew Murdock

I'm doing well yep Saturday so I'm just heading into town to go pick up my daughter East is mad at friends house and I apologize to the viewers that I'm always in my truck when I do this thing but it's the only time I have a minute of peace so I'm not getting harassed by a bunch of little halflings and this lady that's always harassing me to do things for her I had my I I had my I had my mic mute my mic muted so people couldn't hear me basically all I said was hey how's it going in Matthew what's going on so nothing not a big deal so what did you want to talk about in terms of Jesus Christ and God and religion and hell and all that good stuff well um I want to talk about any of that stuff that's all good stuff I think we that we ended our last conversation we were talking about we nailed a lot of really fun things down but I think the last question that you asked was something concerning the church so maybe we can talk about some church stuff and I guess you know if you wanted to talk about some more things about Hell I just read a really cool article I sent it to you that kind of describes what my view is of Hell you know being Gehenna and all that type of stuff but if you wanted to rap about that yeah let's let's start with the church because that's more exciting for me okay cool yeah what is did did Christ build a church yes or no I believe I believe he did and where is it well I think like what can I ask you define the word church because the biblical word is the ecclesia the Greek word for the gathering that's the word that's translated or translated yes it's Church it's the gathering of invisible people right now yeah it's a physical gathering of people it's in the in the Old Testament ecclesia was you know Israel when they when they'd come together and congregates to worship Yahweh or Jehovah I'm talking to a Jehovah's Witness it witness at work talking with them and they get very upset about the Yahweh thing I think it's Jehovah which I have no clue but I said yeah why but anyways yeah so the gathering of believers Saints the called out ones the God's special people so how you would define church yeah I met the churches I just made a joke about it being the gathering of invisible people because it's not yeah obviously it's not it's not invisible people its visible people with a visible hierarchy and they have a website and everything right like I mean even the jobless witnesses have a website and if you're if they ask you what is the website of the hierarchy of the headquarters of your global church and you're like oh we don't have one that's kind of embarrassing and we do have what we do when I do I have we do a headquarters thing know we do have a headquarters we do have a website you know there's God God is the author of communication all forms of communication so God used the technology of physical writing in books he used the the human authors of the scriptures to write his word in a sacred deposit of faith that written component all the holy scriptures and so he's not afraid of technology whether it's a tablet or a pen paper a microphone a computer he's not afraid God's not afraid of technology God made nature to be natural and it is natural and it's good it's all good and he he uses all technology so it's like God's afraid to use the Internet right God is using God is using the Internet oh yeah I agree I found you through the internet you're like my best bro I'm like God and I'm like a gun for you oh yeah but I mean he yeah he used media to communicate but he didn't do it right away you know he's weight you know the like you the tradition argument that it was passed down orally he used oral the offense mission of things like before Moses ever codified anything or did yeah I get what you're saying there but no I don't think I don't think there's like a stamp on our foreheads that says this is this is the one or that's the one where we have stamps on our foreheads that say that we belong to that church because I mean yeah I mean if I'm talking to the Jehovah's Witness and I say well our headquarters is here and here's our website there yeah well we have all that to right here BAM so what well yeah and then you know the difference between your guys and their guys it's all about the Mormons they say it's either us or the Catholic because we're the only ones who have the keys to the kingdom and have the priesthood so I mean the websites not too impressive I mean there's there's a lot of no no but the reason I mention this websites a reason I mentioned the website is because we need a way to have access to the essential saving truths that have already been well established in the church right I mean it's the reason I mentioned the website is because you can wake up and say hey I believe in Jesus I found a Bible in my hotel my motel like dressing cabinet or whatever and I believe in Jesus and now I'm a Christian right and then you start reinventing the wheel oh the Sabbath is on Saturday and you know yeah de Voort divorce is permitted and all these different sort of doctrines and you know you can't mix flex and and wool and you start you just start making like I mean you just use private interpretation to build your own religion you say I converted to Christ because I found a Bible in a hotel room and so now I'm going to start reinventing the wheel you don't look at tradition you don't look at what is the church like you can't at the same time you can't say well I'm a member of the church because I believe and then at the same time disregard all of the established saving truths that are well documented they've been hashed out rote tradition you can't just disregard all that and say well I'm gonna the buck stops with me I'm gonna reinvent the wheel and I'm gonna make my own religion so when I meet ya when I meet a Jehovah Witness when I meet a Jehovah's Witness and they say oh I have a website that's not the main point the main point is where can I find out what you teach what are the established teachings and that I can go and I can show the Jehovah's Witness this is a novelty this is an innovation your history the history of your stupid man made religion excuse my flippant language there excuse the language but the the the history of your religion is clearly recent and it's an innovation it's a novelty and I can show that by looking at history and looking at the established teachings of the Christian community from from you know from the very beginning at Pentecost right up until today and one of my favorite ways of looking at the continuity and tradition is looking at sexual morality and looking at the doctrines on marriage looking at the doctrines on contraception looking at the doctrines on the issues surrounding life you know those are the main ones but those aren't the only ones but they're the ones that are most subject to change because people are easily seduced by doctrines that are a little bit more comfortable little bit more easy to adopt - right yeah yeah I'm with you doctrine I totally I totally I know that we have a problem with all the different denominations and someone doing exactly what you said by starting their own movement because they'll see one certain aspect of the scripture or some idea that sticks out to them and they make that the main thing and separate themselves from everybody else so I get that I totally get that but do you think but what what gets you in the kingdom what got you in the kingdom before there were Pope's and bishops and all of these things in the time when Jesus had ascended and it's the book of Acts and Peter's preaching his first sermon and I think it's Acts chapter two and you know it's like the the Holy Spirit's poured out and people are asking what they should do to be saved and there was no there was no physical building there was nothing none of those things to appoint these guys - and they made no mention of this type of organizational Church the hierarchy or any of those things they said to repent and believe so if I'm like if I'm that guy that's on a desert island and you know it's a stupid analogy about them to go there anyways because whatever so a Bible washes they're just a total heathen pagan out there and you have had no access to the teachings of the church or tradition or history or any of those things the Bible washes up you read it and you're convicted and you believe in Jesus and you read the things that say if you believe in on him you will no wise perish and to repent and in his heart he's repenting and every day he's praying and drawing near to God and being convicted by the Scriptures alone is that guy in or he's just screwed because he's just in the wrong place at the wrong time no every God God is cooperating in a way that is optimized dynamically optimized for every human in every city in every circumstance in every situation right so the the atheist pedophile who just wants his own pleasure at everyone else's expense God is cooperating with that guy maximally in a way that is maximally optimized for his eternal as greatest eternal happiness so yeah there's absolutely no difference between any two of us we're all sinners and God's working in an optimal fashion with each and every one of us but there's also that objective component there's a subjective component like I'm stupid and I didn't I didn't realize that there's a whole bunch of history already established I'm going to reinvent the wheel there's that there's that subjective component but there's also the objective component that we live in 2020 and if you ask anyone where's the church they'll point you to the Catholic Church and you say where's the headquarters of the church they'll say well the Holy See is in Rome currently and it's been there traditionally from the beginning with a couple of exceptions when it went to a venial or whatever like I mean it's a it's a dirty and complicated history but in 2020 yes when we're the headquarters of the Christian churches most of them will point to Rome right because it's just like this is the reality that we live in now and anyone if you ask anyone where the Catholic Church is they're not going to they're not going to be confused and point you to the Baptist Church or to the Mormon Church or anything else everyone knows where the Catholic Church is right yeah but not you you're not going to find agreement on that being the center of Christendom because I mean the majority of you know Protestants and you know Eastern Orthodox pretty much would even deny that Catholics are even Christian I don't believe that but I'm just saying in the traditions that I grew up in not grew up in but was in my early years and Christendom you know that was the stance there is that you know Catholics you know that's that's the what the of Babylon and all of that type of stuff so not until I met you did I really actually hear people really sticking up for the Catholic faith people really quiet about it even my family who are Catholics and everything they don't really tried to convince me otherwise you know mm but so I'm just saying if you if you ask if you're asking people this and that I mean you get a different answer from everybody and you know you could easily say that these guys in the beginning these these bishops are all doing the exact same thing that the Reformers did just earlier on by you know interpreting the Scriptures by their own private interpretation and making their own decrees and rules and laws and to building up and making us believe do you believe that there is a religion do you believe that Christ built a church and that church is protected from teaching error concerning faith and morals or do you think that Christ allows his church that he built to fall into error concerning faith and morals and that basically we have agnosticism as our agnosticism is more powerful than our Christianity ultimately because Christ is not guaranteeing through the Holy Spirit when he ascended into the Father and he said it's better for you if I go if I don't go I won't send you the Holy Spirit which will guide the church into all truth right you you would have to be saying that agnosticism trumps Christianity because it's just one private judgment against another it's one private interpretation against another you think that's the case or do you think that Christ guarantees that we have access to the essential saving truths of Christianity I mean about this before yeah well this is where my question came in Annie and you slipped in a word there he never he did not say the Holy Spirit will guide the church he said you will guide you he was talking to people at that time you know his disciples and maybe you could say it's like a personal thing he said you know he's gonna lead and guide you and not and I've often wondered what that truth is and that's what I'm wondering that's why I'm asking you the essential thing that puts you in the kingdom because I think the kingdom and the church the ecclesia the congregation all of these things they're synonymous the kingdom of God jesus said you know the kingdom is here in your midst back in those days so Jesus Christ is ruling and reigning ever since he said that he was back then even before the Ascension when he was talking to the the Jews were saying where's the kingdom at then where is he he says that's not found by observation the kingdom ISM is among you so it's his kingdom and invisible kingdom or like you're saying or was it a physical structure that he was building because I mean you could you could see it that way as well he said the kingdom is in your midst or amongst you or within you is what all of the different translations of that verse say so on what the essential thing that places you either you're in the kingdom of God or you're in the family of God or you're not right is it so so what is that essential truth so I think that whatever that truth that the Holy Spirit has promised to lead and guide those early disciples into after you signed it ascended and he was and they were promised that he was going to bring to remembrance all the things that Jesus Christ taught were what was written in the scriptures later forty years later whenever the Gospels were written and passed down you know so I think that those guys were yea protected from misrepresenting Jesus Christ in that period of time when it was just all word of mouth and everything and while they're under intense persecution to write down all of these things that we'd called a New Testament that you think that could be a possible thing or it all comes down to what the essential saving things are so if the essential saving knowledge that you have to have entails all of these dogmas of the church have been built up over the years or passed down over the years or however you want to say it if those are it then yeah Christ would have had to preserve those for us but if the if those saving truths that you're talking about in the truth that was promised that would come when the Holy Spirit came is just those saving truths which is what belief believe and repent Jesus Christ is the son of God he was crucified died buried rose on a thursday on thursday sunday and because when paul says this is the gospel I think in 2nd Corinthians chapter 15 that's pretty much all he says is that you know Christ who Jesus is that he died and he rose again and that is coming again and you know does the church does the Bible teach how many wills Christ has how many natures Christ has how many persons are in Christ and only serves Elias so you do know how to Center those you do not consider those essential saving truths absolutely not because I think that if that was essential Paul spilt a lot of ink lot of ink on a lot of very nitpicky nitpicky details of early church life and in his epistles and it's not mentioned once none of that stuff the I don't think that the any of the Apostles had would have any idea what you're talking about if you said is their dual nature of Christ to do this to do that and ask them those questions I think Peter would be looking at you like you had two heads what are you even talking about I don't think they had that even those things even in their vocabulary that's why they never expressed them when they had every opportunity to do so you know what I mean I said no I don't think that those are essential because if they were essential I mean there there are certain stories in the Gospels that easily could have been cut out and replaced by one paragraph explaining everything that you just said easily you know I mean yeah and if if the Holy Spirit is in fact the author of scripture in the way that Catholicism teachers and Protestant Protestant churches teach as well which I'm still you know weighing out if it is like a magical God used human authors like he uses a pen to write stuff he had every opportunity to to make those issues very clear or at least mention them at all so I think if they were indeed the thing that you need to know to get in or out he would have included that yeah well don't you think everything's included but not everything is explicit and you know like obvious leave it the dual nature of Christ or even the inner Trinity the mechanics of the Trinity that there's nothing I mean you got nothing in the scripture that even comes close to giving it even it's sloppy definition of it it's just we have to put two and two together and use inference and say well there's one God and those three people who have godlike attributes then there has to be three and one two one three and they came up with this I think a genius way of explaining it but I mean it's still really confusing and doesn't make a lot of sense so I don't know do you believe in the Trinity that God is three persons in one essence um I think it could be like that but I think we could totally be wrong and I don't know how I don't know how we would actually know that because it wasn't defined clearly enough I think it's really really uh I don't know it's it's not defined in Scripture clear enough to say that someone's going to go to hell if they don't believe that in the certain way that they do like who was the guy yeah Irenaeus area c area areas yeah that dude i mean his his uh i think he he was like a mode list wasn't he or Jesus was a created being or something it's just it's just a man he's just a man not good it's just a man that guy well you know there's certain statements in scripture where Jesus says things like that too so I don't know do you think like there wasn't a consensus back in those early days either because that guy what is his name again err ariannus area serious he had a lot of followers to in the early church had a lot of bishops were on his side the majority so you know but yeah he had the majority vote you know and so before before they came to that decision a Nicaea or whatever you could have believed his his view of the Trinity and still been saved then after they made the decree saying no this is how you define the Trinity and anyone who who doesn't follow this pattern is now anathema then then all of a sudden it's a damnable doctrine and that makes no sense to me that's like so the day before you can believe this and be fine then the day after they make this decree or whatever this ruling at the council the day after that it's like nope you're going to hell it depends what you know right a mortal sin requires three components objective matter objectively evil matter all knowledge of your intellect and free consent of your will if you don't have all three it's not a mortal sin it's not a damnable sin right it's just a venial sin so you might burn it off in purgatory but if you go through your whole life following the light of God that illuminates your conscience in your mind and you happen to belong to some weird sect that isn't up to date with the fullness of the Catholic teaching then you won't be held accountable for that I mean this is the same as well no yeah that's great well what's that what that tells me is that that's not obviously if that's the case then that's not obviously one of those essential saving truths because I think that without that saving truth no matter what I mean if it's a saving truth it means it's vital it means you're dead if you don't have it alive if you do have it so it can't be a wishy-washy well you just didn't know or you just grew up you know then that could say the same thing for the the Mormon he was raised in Mormonism he was only taught yeah a heretical view so he's fine so then that would mean that there being a part of the Catholic Church of being a part of the Mormon Church or a Protestant it really doesn't matter because God's going to judge you subjectively on your heart right and your belief in your faith so I'm told that that would that would suggest something about like an invisible church like Catholic in the sense of a universal Church olbes all those who confess belief in Jesus Christ and and not just that they believe but they repent and believe and live that lifestyle after like denying yourself and all that following the teachings of Christ right I mean if you're doing that you're pretty you're probably gonna be okay there's a hierarchy of dogmas there's a hierarchy of certainty to in the among the dogmas and the first Dogma is that God exists and that we can know with the light of natural reason without recourse to Revelation that God exists okay so that's that's at the top of the heap and then down at the bottom of the heap we have you know little details of you know Mary ology or whatever at the bottom of the heap which are more recent chronologically in the church yeah and they're more dependent on those higher dogmas right I mean it makes me vital are they like like if I'm if I just say like we're talking about the Trinity what if I'm just like well I just don't really believe that then I'm not I can never be a Catholic unless I say I believe it just just the same as all the way on down to the bodily assumption of Mary can i really be a Catholic and good standing with the church if I just don't believe that and I openly don't believe I can right so no so so there's a hierarchy like you say but really not really I mean you have to you have to buy the whole enchilada you know I'm saying you can't pick and choose oh I like this but I don't like that or else you're not really Catholic you're not really in there you're not really saved but then you have the kind of the squishy oh well it's subjective it's a subjective on everyone's personal experience okay it's like those are two very different things well they don't match the Lynch pin the Lynch pin the Lynch pin that holds them both together is that we are commanded by God to know him and to love him and to serve him and to get to know him means that we have a responsibility to seek the truth and if we seek we'll find and if we find we'll be saved so you can't just say well I'm gonna remain in my ignorance we have an obligation a moral obligation to seek the truth to find the church that's why I keep asking non Catholic non-catholic Christians is there a church did Christ build a church if so where is it have you done your research and you looked into it where is it what are the essential saving truths what's been established what has not yet been assets' open to interpretation and what's been firmly established where we can't deviate from this one particular point of view whether it's Christology or merry ology or whatever it is like if it's established by the Church of Christ if it's established it's established and we have to be obedient we have to educate our conscience we can't just be ignorant because it's easier oh I found out that the church allows for invincible ignorance therefore I'm going to strive for ignorant snow the church commands me to seek the truth that's where I go I'm not going to take I don't have to take a stand on anything that's really like how my mind works I might go oh yeah I just won't say one way or another cool yeah right on but now you say I can't do that so thanks a lot you big jerk but do you have a Bible next to you anywhere yeah I don't I don't want to close my yep really accidentally yeah lose yeah sure but I think it's like acts 17:23 ish around there but it's Paul I think talking or maybe it might be 1725 but Paul is talking about how we're all blindly groping our way to finding God and that's his will that we seek Him and like we're in it gives us beautiful picture of just people blind people in the dark groping around trying to find grab hold of God I got it you got it read that to me bro acts 17:26 and following from one man he made every nation of men who inhabit the hope to inhabit the whole world earth and he determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for him and find him though he is not far from each one of us for in him we live and move and have our being as some of your own poets have said ah that's good huh yeah I like that so we're just groping and trying to find him and he's right in front of us like he said like this your honor yeah a refreshing water or like the virtual reality when he takes out when the headset is removed and God is just right next to you like pulls off that mask and he's arm is around you like Here I am son let's talk you know and that that's amazing to me III think about that all the time yeah it's not far from us and he's actually right here and so he's talking to these pagan people right and acts that's who yeah I was talking to you nothing people he's using he's quoting pagan sources in because he says and him we move and breathe and have our being that's like Zeus or something that was a when one of their pagan gods that was the phrase attributed to them or attributes of him but he's like no that's our God that's that's that's pretty amazing so are we just groping toward him and he likes that and that's pleasing we're gonna find him he's right here or is it this you know this long like la book of facts and figures and articles - 14 X you know states that you know all this is it Batman is it really that well I mean I want to read through like these documents that you send me and Stefan I start reading a motion it's so hard to read there's so much stuff and it's just so boring round like a lot I agree with like that's why I'm glad you're doing that Vatican thing where you're Vatican to deal that you're kind of Bob given some commentary gosh man that it's so hard just to sit down and just plow through that stuff I'm just like I can't do it well I mean when you read the Bible do you read it without punctuation without any accents and just you know no verse chapter and verse numbers or do you do you benefit from the hard work that Christians have put into the Bible to sort of break it up and illustrate it and put chapter and verse I mean don't don't like you should not frown on these learning aids that the church gives you you should not say oh it's boring having chapter and verse numbers they're artificial they were introduced by man later you should say thank God that Christians care enough to make it easier to read my Bible they're publishing it for and why they're making it inexpensive and they've got copies online I can access it for free I mean you should just thank God for every help that you get on how to find this church or get into church I mean it's don't complain about how democratic it is yeah but I mean I think like what you and I are doing right now where we're groping and we're searching and we're trying to find find him and get to know and I think he's I think he likes that yeah I think that's what he wants us to do and but like but back to what we're saying so those essentials I mean we got to nail that down yeah because it can't it can't be a subjective thing that you tried your best and you did the best with what you had it can't be that and if you don't accept article one to our 10,000 13-3 but her and your you're out which is basically what the Catholic system is you like I said you have to buy the whole enchilada or else you're not in at all so which one is it it can't be both well you need to be honest with yourself and say am i Catholic or not right now you're not and you're being honest about that if you the last thing I want is for you to pretend you're Catholic and say oh yeah yeah I believe in the Assumption of Mary and then it in your heart of hearts you like no I don't that's that's that's how you go to hell right lying lying to yourself lying to God whatever so I mean I mean God is not stupid he knows that people have limited education they have limited cooperation with his Grace's and he's working with you in a way that is maximally optimized for your greatest good so you can trust you can trust him you can relax and you can enjoy the journey is the Catholic Church the church that Christ built yes or no well you don't need to panic like oh my god I might be I might be outside of the Ark and I might drown like I mean if you if you know that God exists and you love him and you want to serve Him and you want to find him and you want to find out did his son come to earth and to suffer and die for you and build a church and protect that church from error concerning faith and where else if you want to find out about that you can find out and you'll find out at your own rate don't compare yourself with anyone else and don't be panic-stricken like I'm gonna be damned because I'm not in the I might not be in the right category I have the right checklist of dogmas whatever don't be worried about that just knowing your hurt that you want you want God you want to know God and that's why you're digging into the Scriptures because ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ so you're digging in because you love God right so he sees that and it credits to your account it's it's a credit to us faith so yeah you don't need to panic or worry but my question to you is if you belong to the church where are the established church where are the established truths according to this church that you belong to that you think is the church that Christ built or do you not know where the church is that Christ built you think it's some nebulous ambiguous invisible thing and it's just all you need to do is you know believe in Jesus Christ he don't even need to believe the Trinity you just need to have some vague love of God and some vague belief that somehow Jesus is the Messiah the Son of God and you put your faith in Him and you're saved is that it are those the only a saving essential truths the only essential signatures or I mean are they few are they many is or is the Bible is the Bible nothing more or less than the collection of all the essential saving truths and it's up to your private interpretation to get as much or as little out of the Bible as you're able or what you know where are the essential saving truths of the church that Christ built or do you not know where the church where that churches well I think that the essential saving truths were passed down word of mouth by Christ to the Apostles the Apostles to the or just the disciples apostles included the twelve included but I think there were there are more people you please and like you see this in act you see you see people just forming house churches these people get saved and then BAM they move in and they're there there's a house church like they brought salvation to this family just by bringing the message of the gospel which is you know repentance and faith in Jesus Christ and those very basic things I think we see that modeled for us exactly what people you know we have we have Peters sermon the original sermons that kicked off global thing and fulfilled all that Testament prophecy of the Messiah and what he was going to do we have a record of it in the Bible and I don't think the Bible is perfect or anything but I think like what you're saying I think that as far as faith and morals go uh yeah I think that that that's that it's been protected from error that way so I think that in those recorded words of Jesus Christ our our contain all the essential saving truths so do you think that there's extra stuff that Jesus left out if all the sayings of Jesus were written down the world could not contain the books I want you I want essential ones the ones that were written down had to have been written down on purpose you know because they must have been like the the most important ones is on it you're right I mean he's probably said a bunch of other stuff but what he or the Holy Spirit wanted us to know I think probably got written down or the Apostles hey damper that job that those made it in to the gospel event I mean right right yeah I wasn't a fair idea anyway yeah but before I respond to that I want you to say I want to give a shout out to those in the live chat a bit Chris mr. Rick's Lord Mozart 308 as usual my good friend from the YouTube and I want you Matthew to say hello to Nick's Tannhauser Regis commented in the live chat so give a shout out to a next composer he says yeah you too lowered Mozart in my home he did yeah nice to see them a nice to see them in the live so yeah the essential saving truths of Jesus Christ I mean they they are contained in the sacred deposit of faith there's nothing new that can be revealed the public revelation is closed as I never tire of repeating with the death of the last apostle and how do I know that I know that because I have a church right so how do you how do you form a judgment do you form a private judgment a private interpretation of Scripture where did the scriptures come from and obviously you don't believe the Scriptures are perfect so therefore you think it's just a collection of writings like any other may be slightly more reliable than some other collection that you could come up with but it's not inherent and infallible the way that the church according to me the Church teaches I mean I believe that the church that Christ built is in the Holy Roman Catholic Church and the church answers all these questions for me right like what what is that what is the Canon of Scripture is it in art is there any error contained entirely or in part of the scriptures and the church says no there is absolutely no error in the entirety of the Scriptures or in any of the parts of the scriptures and it's not only it's not only a truth pertaining to faith and morals it's a there's no error whatsoever in any part of Scripture so I if I could show you one right now there are a parent there are apparent contradictions and apparent errors but they there's such thing as reported there in the foibles of men are reported in the Bible so you need to distinguish the literary forms and this is this is this is um this is petty okay I'm admitting this is a petty thing but I can show you there is a discrepancy of an account in second Samuel and no first Samuel and in second Kings for describing the same exact event and in one account it says that's Satan incited gave it to number Israel and then in the second one it says Yahweh it quotes Yahweh saying I am angry with Israel therefore I incited that God saying commanding David to number Israel because he's mad at Israel one says it's the devil and one it's God in the first person doing it you can't have it being God in the devil at the same time in the same way okay oh you can look that up and read both accounts it's just it's very interesting but you see that sort of thing used to challenge they rocked me but variance with God nothing can shake me now because I feel like I actually have a personal relationship with him that I know him in a way that like you could throw the Bible out I would still have Jesus I'd still have my god in mine yeah be okay you can't shake me anymore cuz I know him if my if it's all built on the word of man like a theological system or biblical inerrancy as soon as you find like you said if you find one thing contradictory in the dogmas you'll abandon Jesus Christ and I hate that you know but that's how I was to if I found one thing that was an error in the Bible in any way that's like my whole faith was built on biblical inerrancy so as soon as I saw an error in there oh crap then my faith is in vain oh that's not right and I I want you to reconsider that too because that does not necessarily follow that therefore Jesus Christ is not who he says he was or God does not exist and all that stuff that's not that does not follow up necessity there are many there are many many arguments there are many stumbling stumbling stones stumbling blocks in scripture and in tradition and you can meet for example you can meet set if accantus that build these elaborate though kwarrel arguments against the recent Pope's right and against the Vatican Second Vatican Council you can read long long long involved articles which are citing the Saints and saved a felony and all these Saints and early you know early church fathers and the the counsels of the church and Trent and Vatican one and all the rest and they'll build an argument why the recent Pope's are not valid in their heretics and that's not the other thing but I have a church so I trust the church and I submit in docile obedience to the church and the church tells me it doesn't tell me what to think in every my new detail but with controversial questions you know whether it's Christology mary ology or ecclesiology with the controversial questions of the day what are the things that could rock my world as you said I've never ever ever ever come close to him being having my Rock Tour having my faith shaken because I have the firm foundation which is God the Father and if I'm wrong about Christianity I can still be a monotheistic monotheist and so there's absolutely I don't feel threatened in the slightest I'm ready to walk away from Christianity if it's not true I don't want to belong to it as I never tire of saying but because I have a church because I have faith in the church I have the answers to all the questions of all these controversial attacks that come from said of a Kansas tour where they come from Mormons or that come from Jehovah's Witness or seventh-day Adventists or just generic Protestants or nondenominational Christians they've all got arguments all of them against me in my church I've never ever ever felt threatened in the slightest why because I have confidence in the church everything everything they teach is consistent and it's if you look at the early church worship they believe in the real presence of the Eucharist that alone continuing up until today the only candidates I have left are the eastern oriental churches the Oriental Orthodox the Eastern Orthodox and you know the Catholic Church I mean there aren't a lot of candidates for me right and I don't know how you can sit there and look at church history and the real presence that's that's talked about consistently in the early church fathers and even by st. Paul himself and and not join either an Eastern Orthodox and oriental Orthodox or the Catholic Church I don't know how you do it really frankly well I mean I think that because they got that right good I do believe in the real presence and I do believe that I just don't believe that it has to be some certain guy doing the incantation over it maybe you know but yeah I do believe there's a magical mystical deal in in the Bott the true body and blood of Christ because what Jesus says in the Bible that's recorded that's one of those essential truths right and Jesus maps it out says if you do not drink my blood II my sweat as you have no part of me makes it very clear so I believe it did and so you know you can say that chop that up to something that's really important because he spells it out very clearly and anyone can understand it but on what they say you've told me that you don't think that the Bible is perfect and Saint Agustin famously said if there's one Arabic part San Agustin said if there's one error in any part of scripture we may as well chuck the whole thing in the garbage because we can't have certainty there's any doubt on any passage he was wrong that was that was a statement fatalism and all sorts of things yeah yes that's wrong and like I said I can show you and that's that's just some that's that's his private interpretation of Scripture and Agustin Agustin Harvey said he didn't even have access he couldn't read Greek he didn't know the original languages yep he could read the Latin he'd the Latin right to let the Textus Receptus or whatever the Septuagint Septuagint but that was Greek oh he he could read Latin he only had Latin versions oh yeah Latin Vulgate which we're not we're not as good we have better manuscripts now any anyways like I said if you look up that that Samuel the passage in Samuel and and in first Chronicles or second Chronicles you can look it up read those two things I can show you a discrepancy and two biblical accounts so Augustine will have to just go back to being a pagan but yes it sure success to any of this stuff but the church I could show you right now that there's a discrepancy in an account of the same exact passage so it can't be inerrant in that way but like you said like the the standard that you say the church is protected and which is it seems like a slippery way to get out of out of it you know they're saying oh they can be wrong about all this other stuff but never about faith and morals I can say the same thing about Scripture it can be wrong about if it was the devil who incited David or if it was God who died he David because there's two different authors writing a certain historical events that got information for different places okay no problem let's let's just let's just as far as faith and morals and who God is and how you know God and how you in salvation and all the saving truth let's say that the scriptures were protected from misleading even anyway in those areas which I don't think there's any way that you can pull up something to say oh Jesus says you're saying this way then Paul says it's a different way there's nothing this that I know of and if that was the case then yeah I mean but I mean I trust it as far as you know that the words of Christ were faithfully recorded that's what I trust that but I don't think it's a perfect book that fell out of heaven I think there's a lot of errors yeah that man errors in it san agustin was a bishop in the holy roman catholic church he is he was infallible when he taught in his role as bishop in union with all the other bishops and union with the head of the bishops the pope but and so the reason that the church endorses his teachings where he was right and he and the church does not endorse those teachings where he was wrong is because the church has infallibility and effect ability and the authority to go and be of an authority to make judgments when their controversial questions and when saints have opinions that differ from the mind of Christ then the church corrects the Saints and if the if they're if they're saying it's too convenient though it's not fair oh yeah he's infallible until he says something that we don't like or doesn't line up with our other doctrines oh no he just was well cut that will will put the black highlighter on that part of what he said but he's 100% right over here do you wanna slip roots to the Union do you want to give a shout-out to cure and listenings in the comments on the left cheering my brother I'll be dog what's up hugs nice to see you nice to see out here Kieran say hi to your brother too and your father everyone so the question is the question is one of authority by what authority do you judge and interpret the Scriptures and by what authority to even know which books belong in the Canon of scriptures and it's it's the same question always always always to the non-catholic without well that's a slippery one too because well how do I oh it's the basic authority what's the authority on which you base your judgments is it private do you admit that it's private judgment um as far as which books I would accept or not accept well there are all sorts of Givens there are all sorts of Givens right now like you accept the 27 books of the New Testament and you accept all 73 books of the entire canon of Scripture do you or do you not I haven't looked into the Maccabees and all the other but I did read what was that one the Book of Wisdom Sirach Book of Wisdom yeah yeah that sounds like scripture to me dude yeah I know the voice of Scripture and I know like when I'm listening to the Gospel of Judas the Gospel Thomas all these other things but I thought I've checked out you can just tell you can hear like you know Jesus said you hear my voice and all that like you can tell it's a bit different it's not the same voice it's not the same person and yeah I guess the only way I can know that is yeah it's it's a private interpretation I just my gut tells me that that's false and I can tell I can I can just tell I don't know so yeah I said there's a private that's a private thing I guess as far as authority goes because I think that the Apostles had Authority and of course the authority comes from Christ but how do I know that those were actually Jesus Christ's words I have to take that in fate and and really like I said since I had that experience that encounter I mean I can hear it I know that that's that's Jesus Christ that's that's who he is you know I I trust the words of Christ I don't really trust with the same confidence all of this surrounding stuff even the stories surrounding everything I'm not I don't need those to be inerrant in order to believe I just believe in the teachings of Christ and the Apostles that we have recorded for us so when I when I converted to God the Father I was a generic monotheist and I was compelled to do public worship and then by Providence Catholic monk walk Catholic monk walked into my computer store where I was working and for servicing on his computer and I asked him if I could talk about God with him and the rest is history I went to a mass and I was moved by the by the worship of God and so I asked if I could become a Catholic even though I didn't believe in the Trinity or in Jesus Christ or in the scriptures or anything sacred tradition or anything right I just believed in God the Father so it sounds like you're sort of in a similar boat you want to know God to love God to serve God in this life so you can be happy with him forever the next life the question is why was i drawn immediately into the church whether that church is true or false that's another question but I spent every waking moment since that time in 2009 trying to prove that the church is a false church and so I can go back to so I can find the true religion but it turns out I'm convinced that Christianity is true Catholicism is the fullness of Christianity and at the time when is it generic monotheism my my suspicion was that Islam was the true religion because at a simplified montes sort of monotheism and none of the complications and none of the baggage that's associated with certainly with Catholicism but my question to you is why are you comfortable with the insecurities you have I've been struggling every day to solidify my faith to find the one true religion and if I do belong to a false religion to find out so that I can leave are you are you on that same journey that I was on and you're just your course is more of a meandering course or are you moderate or are you mired by a psychological impediment which is an obsession with the minutiae the details the arguments the theology and all of that because my approach was one of trust trusting son of a loving Heavenly Father where I said well I know you've given us the means to salvation and a clearer communication of the essential saving truths so just guide me and I'm going to use my free will in my reason to test the teachings of Judaism Christianity and Islam and I was guided very very quickly into the church so it seems like I've had a smoother entry into what I take to be the one true religion whereas you seem to be floundering a little bit and very focused and obsessed with a lot of theological questions that have not been resolved in which ultimately you had just admitted come down to your private judgment your gut how you feel because you have a relationship with God two very different approaches to religion and public worship can you just talk about why that might be the case that you're on such a different experience oval track well okay so for me I was very anxious as you know I was going through all this turmoil of where am I out I'm listening to all these different men all these different theologies all these different you know systematic theology and all this stuff and my head was spinning and then listening to the atheists atheistic theology alcohol for the the Church of the Church of the first atheist I was listening to them much listened to them but you know what what I was lacking was that knowing of God in and and I was I was struggling you were with me and you and you helped me my dear brother you helped me a lot Puran helped me a lot of people have helped me even my dear brother Nick when we had our talks and we were talking about my doubts and stuff even all that stuff God was using all of those things lead me to that place where I was up in that mountain crying like a madman saying where are you if you're here I have to know please let me just have you anything else you know to bring me to that point of other as unrest and in my dish and my dad is this all fake am I going to hell is there even is that that horrible deconstruction of my whole worldview and everything to get me to the point where it's on my face crying out to God saying I'll go anywhere you want I'll do anything say you know just just show me something show me you're here not show me like show me the money type of thing but let me know whatever and he did and he showed up so now I'm at rest with all that you put all of those doubts and that anxiety to rest I'm not worried about it the way that I was because now I know I trust him with me I trust him that he's gonna lead and guide me where I need to be so I don't have that anxiety anymore because I know him I don't just have this idea or this philosophy that I'm trying to clutch onto that kind of to get that security like with what you say like you have all the answers met great cool I'm being more uncomfortable now with uncertainty because I think that God he leaves us in that place for whatever reason because that's where faith comes in we don't have all the dots crop you know are the dots connected for us there is a lot of ambiguous things that it could be this way or that way and I think that in the true spirit of God in Christ it's like you say the the having charity and unity and all those things in these different opinions but once you know him none of the other stuff really matters you know I I put all my stock into going to men and having them tell me who God is and how to worship and how to love them and that's when it got into subjectivity and the confusion and this guy says this thing and this guy says the other thing which which just was destroying me inside now and twisted me up in knots but now it's like I I don't really care about all that I'm not anxious anymore it's put to rest I feel I feel secure in but you know I'm still willing to be corrected and it's shown like if if he shows me hey you stupid idiot it's been Catholicism all along you go join the church I'll sign up right then I will I'll run and I'll say sorry to everybody publicly I'm an idiot I'll do it I don't care I really will I seriously or if he says hey guess what it's Mormonism go do it I'll be a fool and go be a Mormon if he tells me that's what it is you know but I just think that those camps and all of those man-made institutions and divisive doctrines that don't do it bring true Catholicism which is a universal oneness of faith unity of mind it's like and I don't I don't need any of that stuff I just yeah I want to just mention a little fun experiment here like let's say that I'm right and you're wrong and Satan and his demons have fooled you into depriving yourself of the fullness of the Christian truth so you're not availing yourself properly of the Catholic life which is prayer and the sacraments according to the mind of the church according to the mind of Christ you got an impoverished form of Christianity I'm not saying this to be hurt I'm just saying as a thought it's all right as a thought experiment pretend that I'm right and you're wrong and then let's flip the tables and say let's say that you're right and I'm wrong and Satan has fooled me into joining this church that has all sorts of manmade rules man-made doctrines and all that sort of thing so I'm availing myself of blasphemous sacraments like I'm worshipping literally a piece of bread and a cup of wine okay so which of those two roots do you think is more likely that Satan and his demons are fooling me or Satan and as demons are fooling you if you had to choose between those between this sort of forced dichotomy which do you think is more likely to be the case man that's a hard no man well what I would want to say but you forced me into one or either or and I will answer the either-or because I hate it when people dodge questions and thought experiment because they don't like what it sounds like you know but the demons are lasting when we're divided and I'm calling you I'm calling you a heretic you're calling me a heretic and we we don't share the love of Jesus Christ and the love that God has for us together to prove that we're Jesus Christ's disciples because I believe that the essential saving faith is just faith and repentance in Christ that very basic mere cursed in it Christianity types of things so I think that if that was the bond that held us together then that the devil and his demons you know get a little slap on the heinie and they're gonna run away and they're gonna hate it that we can still sing Kumbaya together and have a good time in love on I've a Christus Rex makes a good point about it is a to make most buttons are you still there sorry you were breaking up a bit so I started talking sorry about that oh sorry man yeah Ave Christus Rex just made an interesting comment about Jesus when he said do it they say not what they do when he was referring to the seed of Moses who has god-given Authority can you just comment on that that's I think it's an important point to remember one we have to think about this idea of submission to a church right yeah so you didn't hear any of that stuff I was just saying yeah I heard all of it right till I started speaking over you oh okay that's gonna say if you didn't hear it then I just totally would have proved my point that would have been the argument that would ascent you know you have been on my side after that but since we lost they will never know okay the seat of Moses no I love that that's very compelling but he was talking to the Jews about Jewish things in their Jewish history if you know about that the seat of Moses he was he was talking about that that corrupted system of the Old Covenant Judaism which had just turned into utter idolatry by the time that their Messiah came toward they rejected Jesus because they didn't even understand the day of their visitation like Christ said and Christ warned them and said if they didn't repent and he was going to he's gonna come in judgment that's what he's talking about in Matthew 24 I believe come in judgment and wipe all you guys out and that's exactly what happened so I don't think that that applies to me anymore because I'm a new covenant Christian I'm in the New Covenant and Christ's blood which Judas when Judas killed himself do you admit that much and what do you think the significance and the implications of that are for the apostolic succession oh no that's a good one yeah yep they rolled the dice and they had two guys than mine and they picked two Matthias or the other dude yeah I think it was Matthias yeah yeah yeah they replaced him and we don't hear anything else about it right yeah well we have have you read the writings of the early church fathers from the first century second century third century fourth century to century sixth century seventh century how much time do you think I've ever had yeah and those guys were boring to some of these guys I read Origen you know he cut off his balls right I mean I don't want to you know it's interesting stuff but no I haven't read all of them but I read yeren a.s who was the first one the first guy that wrote that first century guy was that your næss the first century we'll the apostles were in the 1st century no I mean as far as non apostle writings but early church fathers was it Irenaeus was there at least one oh no he's one of the first yeah he's one of the viewers so you deviated from the first century Ignatius that's the one right yeah okay well yes I read his stuff and it sounds very Catholic II but he but he I don't think he said anything about apostolic succession he talks about the bishops and a bishop you know the word bishop means servant like the bishops and the Deacons and all that were just servants of the Apostles that like the the people would wait tables and make sure everything was going good so the Apostles could focus on reading the scripture and prayer and all that stuff so I think like the whole big bishop authority funny hat guy I think that came later you know the bishops were were servants right that's what a bishop means am i correct yeah so a bit for a bishop for a guy whose title is servant and then be like I'm in charge of all you fools it means overseer it doesn't make a lot of sense it means overseer one who's overseeing the reason I'm distracted because Nicola just joined us critic Nicola Chris second when I say hi I love you we're gonna be back okay you want to give a so money yeah what up Nicola homeboy that's how many cool people on this in this little community here I mean some nice honest best friends man you know I'm really excited I'm really excited that little Nick stump Houser came back to us I thought he'd like wandered far far away I don't know where he went and I've been worried about him but he's on a serious journey yeah yeah he's on he's he's doing it man any last thoughts just you want to say a little generic prayer that everyone can get behind everyone that's in your version of the church can get behind it's a generic Christian prayer you know no mention of the generic no no no mention of the Assumption of Mary in your prayer just the the basic essential saving truths in your prayer can you could say a little something or a little inspirational final thought it's up to you just we're we're at the one hour mark I want to leave it Lise you can go yeah I know perfect guy we didn't get to get into hell no man I had some killer stuff about Gehenna the word hell doesn't exist anywhere in any of the original languages anywhere and I wanted you to address why you think yeah okay so we're doing that we're doing a held one next time but anyways yeah sure let's both break because I like it when you pray turns the prayers of a righteous man availeth much so am I not going to go very much the fastest ceiling in my truck please come on alright alright so Heavenly Father I just we just all come before you this group of men that you've brought together by your spirit you've brought all these amazing people together that I love and I pray that you would bless each and every one of these guys with just clarity and that we would just seek and find you that we would be able to walk with you to deny ourselves and that you would just give us peace for for those that aren't sure about who you are or where you're at or the church and all that stuff look out that you just you just ran peace on my brothers and in our families that we would be like Jesus and our families and that we'd be that peace we would be your instrument peace and love and and all that Lord got nights just thank you for each and every one of these guys and just I love them saying thank you help us to walk out love every day excellent thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me and we'll definitely do another chat Nicola was saying maybe we could have a three or four-way chat and yeah but until then take care thanks for taking the time to talk to me again and you know I love you you know I'm not bullying you I'm not bullying you too you know because you're not Catholic about but I am excited I'm very very excited about Catholicism the church to have to love it to belong to the church that Christ built 2,000 years ago is so exciting I want that for you I want that for everyone so don't don't take my enthusiasm as a bullying and I love you where you are and just be authentic follow the truth where it leads you and you'll get there and so thanks again for joining me yeah thank you man I love you too and yeah don't ever I don't ever feel bullied man I understand and I and and you know I'm where I'm at so I'm uh I really appreciate you and all of you all you guys really okay well yeah god bless you and have a good one man this is so much fun every time thanks a lot we'll talk soon every time thanks a lot we'll talk soon god bless later brother

CVS Live Guest - 2020-02-11 - Converse Contender

what's up everybody thanks for joining the stream tonight i've got with me catholic versus david how you doing dave i'm doing very well thank you uh thank you so much uh converse contender really nice to meet you see your face finally and uh thanks for having me on yeah no problem um i really have been enjoying your content for sure i know a lot of um there's a lot of protestants that um maybe wouldn't enjoy it so much obviously from the catholic perspective but i actually i one thing i really like about david is his sincerity right i feel like you're super like you're really sincere uh and genuine i get that from your discussions i feel like whenever i hear you have a conversation i don't feel like you're trying to win or anything like that um but rather uh you you're trying to just have the conversation and find out um where the other person is coming from yeah and then also i feel like you do actually do really well so i could tell that you're you're pretty bright why don't you start by telling us a little bit about yourself uh where you're from like you don't have to go into as much detail as you want but also how did you come about the beliefs that you have and maybe just lay out a little background for us sure i'll give a super quick version and you can uh come begging for more um basically i was raised in a very liberal protestant uh denomination in canada the most popular denomination in canada is the united church of canada and they have atheist ministers today officially you might look up greta look up grete of osprey she's the one who spearheaded the right to have atheist ministers in the united church of canada so it's sounding like this is not going to be a super short version if i'm already rambling this much about my childhood but basically i was raised protestant i lost my faith at age 14 i had a beautiful dream about jesus i you know i said my prayers before bed as usual at age 14 had a beautiful dream about jesus and woke up and said i've lost my faith i've lost my faith in jesus christ and of course i've lost my faith in god and the whole shebang and i was an atheist i was i was entering into puberty and the rebellion began i painted my room black listened to crazy music got into crime uh drugs i would i would have liked to have gotten into sex also but i was too shy so it was more just uh embarrassing masturbation but um a lot of guys go through that so i like to be open about that because it's something that guys don't talk about a lot chronic masturbator for years and years and years and decades and uh so that was embarrassing but you know a lot of frustration i went into crime like i said i ended up leaving home 17 joined the mafia and just had a really crappy you know mediocre life and then i always i always love philosophy and i love truth so i was reading a lot i i sort of settled into a hippie-dippy pantheistic nice sky agnosticism for most of my life but at age 39 i'd been studying philosophy pretty intensely as a hobby and i discovered i started at the beginning of the western tradition and i just plowed my way through an overview of all the different schools and uh you know i fell in love with the the pre-socratics and socrates especially in plato and to a lesser extent uh i put up with aristotle um but then when i when i went through you know neoplatonism i went through the the western history of of philosophy by the time i got to modern times with rene descartes i was a satanist i was an explicit atheistic satanist i was also a herd solipsist meaning that i thought i was the only being because i passed through all sorts of idealism in my reading and i ended up questioning uh you know the existence of the material world and the other and so i was a hard solipsist and that was very a sad and lonely place to be um but rene descartes pulled me out he's not an orthodox catholic but he did believe in some sort of god and uh he firmly believed that and he pulled me out of solipsism in a very nonchalant way with a waving of the hand of course god exists of course he's good don't be silly and that that was enough to pull me out of solipsism and to believe in god uh god the father i was desperate at that point to find god the father anyway so uh long story short i ended up being a generic monotheist for a couple of weeks but a book fell into my hands the confessions of saint augustine and that made me fall in love with saint augustine first and foremost and then his christian religion and i said it's the same god anyway i may as well worship the christian god even though i don't believe in jesus christ the incarnation the trinity but a monk walked into my store and i said can i talk to god with you and he invited me to the monastery and he gave me private instruction because he brought me to a mass and i said i want to worship god in your mass even though i'm not christian and he said sure i'll give you instruction and if you accept the teachings you can become a christian and if not no pressure you can walk away and you can become a muslim or whatever because that's what i thought i was on my way to being a muslim so that's the that's the long and the short version wow it's very interesting story you know it's uh similar to me in some aspects you know i mean not all but obviously i went through some rebellion um i didn't have a whole lot i mean whenever i was young i had um i didn't i don't mean i didn't have a whole lot of rebellion i meant to say that i don't have i didn't have a whole lot of religion whenever i was young actually what if you look at the picture my twitter um here's a picture of me can you see that yeah there's a picture of me as a little guy how old are you i was uh i don't even know probably in ninth grade uh okay i've got skateboard pictures all over the wall i've got a picture of blink 182 up there and uh a guitar and a bunch of amps and stuff and that's kind of like that was my uh my i guess you could say what i wanted to do you know whenever i was younger i just wanted to skateboard and play guitar and that kind of thing and and while i was rebellious um i actually wasn't too bad you know i wasn't i kind of i always had in the back of my mind that that whenever i was younger my grandma had me in church was giving me candy to keep me quiet i always had the back of my mind like she was always like the person i looked up to so i always thought man you know i don't want to get straight off too far from from her you know because i felt like she was kind of like grounding but i did get go through a period where i was not a christian and so i can i can relate to you but it's not like you went so far away way farther than i ever went to all the way into solipsism and you know i want to ask you about a couple of things you said um one you said that you joined the mafia i wonder i wonder about that can you talk about that well i i you know my at age 17 i dropped out of high school my father said look you can you can live here but you either have to you know go back to school or start paying rent so i just i just moved out you know i was not interested in school and uh i dropped out with like a year and a half remaining or something in high school and uh so i was always close with my sister so i went and lived with my sister and she took care of me and so she was like my second mom and uh really generous and giving to me and i was just a selfish little brat you know and uh eventually she started saying well maybe you should get a job you know so i uh i looked in the newspaper and uh in the local city and uh the city that i'd moved to with my sister and it was like a sales job and i went down and they interviewed me and they gave me the job the same day and i i worked that week i worked three uh four hour days so it's three times four 12 hours i made close to 900 doing sales because it was a complete scam you know just ripping people off ripping off businesses so nothing glamorous but i had the gift of the guy when i was good at sales and so i made a lot of money uh very quickly but my nature is i don't really uh like working so if i made a bunch of money i would just slack off and not go to work and just bum around play pools hanging out with pool halls and stuff like that i didn't hang out with them off you guys like some once in a while they would uh come down from montreal which is where i currently live and so it was the montreal mafia that was running it and uh they brought me at a certain point they brought me into a an outfit in montreal and i went to toronto i went to vancouver i moved around i got uh i got arrested once but the cops felt sorry for me so i was so young and uh you know i had rented out a room in a hotel uh like a conference center and i was like ripping people off in the comp conference center and the cops came and said look just uh you got to change your lifestyle because you're going to end up in jail so uh i you know i had been running around for a couple of years doing this sort of thing and i thought okay maybe it's time for a change so i went back to school completed my high school went to university and uh sort of i didn't become completely on the straight and narrow but uh took a step in the right direction all right do you have uh did you finish your degree no i i dropped out because i met my wife and we moved to europe and traveled around and wow yeah europe well i kind of did the same thing i dropped out i'm just now i'm 31 years old now i'm just now finishing my degree okay cool yeah i'm just now able to go back on so but yeah that's really interesting so where you you lived in europe for a little while yeah in greece and in belgium and in england scotland uh just uh traveled around we were art artists you know right that's nice it's just a fun lifestyle that's interesting you said that uh you you fell into solipsism for a while so yeah you you basically thought you were the only mind that actually existed yeah the only the only being you know the only being interesting it's interesting that you as a psalm says i don't know if you ever thought about this how arrogant that position actually is but like you've created in your mind you've created every most beautiful piece of artwork there is every great song you created it all in your mind yeah well i mean solipsism makes the solipsist god right so it is it's the most popular religion in the world it's just most people have a have a soft solipsism where they haven't really dug into it too deeply but they they do think most people do in some on some level i think uh worship themselves adore themselves serve themselves makes make sacrifices for themselves uh self-seeking self-serving it's a love of self unto contempt of god and the only way you can do that is if you think you're god because if you know that you're not god that god is god you're not gonna you're not gonna serve uh the idol that is yourself right well that's an interesting way of putting it yeah do you agree with you there so i would just say that um um is there anything else along your path that really helped structure you like what what got you from there to catholicism um well it's uh which part do you want to zoom in on like the the solipsism to theism was in a heartbeat it was reading rene descartes i think therefore i am right um i guess from yeah i guess from there to catholicism is it just because you're reading the saints and and the um the early church fathers or no did it have did it have something to do with uh an experience you had no my my perspective is unique i've never heard it before but i'll share it with you again even though my my listeners are sick of hearing it but i'll repeat it again for you um i was compelled to worship god publicly and this was counterintuitive because i hated ritual i hated religion i hated god you know as an atheist i hated all of the uh display of ceremony and the ritual and rights and uh you know certainly the catholic mass is the last thing i would want to attend as an atheist because i just i hated the catholic church above all religions you know among all religions i hated christianity the most and within christianity i hated catholicism the most and i i hated all the ritual and all that but i was compelled when i found god the father i was compelled to worship him publicly i can't explain to you why but i just had to it's like i guess it's kind of like when you're in love you want to shout it from the rooftops you want to tell everyone when you're in love right so i think it's sort of it's a it's analogous to that and um i wanted to worship god publicly and i said look i i'm a generic monotheist i think islam is probably my final destination because christianity i hate it and it's stupid and overly complicated and the trinity what the hell is that uh you know one plus one plus one equals one that's from morons only and um you know islam i i was watching a lot of uh uh videos on youtube about islam and i really liked it you know i really i've i know i know muslims i love muslims i still to this day i'm close with muslims here in montreal i love the muslim people and there's a lot of good in their culture and their religion i know that's not politically correct for a lot of people to say that um there's a lot of controversy around that that topic on the left on the right all this nonsense about islam right um but uh and for the record i'm neither left nor right i'm i'm a christian okay but um i thought i was heading towards islam and uh i just said well i want to worship god i'm in a christian culture and i'm in a province of canada which is catholic and from what little reading i had done um you know you know having read the history of the church uh inadvertently through the history of western philosophy and then having read um just history generally and uh having dug a little bit into christianity i knew that uh catholicism historically had the best claim to be the the fullness of the christian religion no offense to anyone that's not catholic but that was my opinion from my reading and so i said well look i don't believe in christianity but i i want to worship god publicly so i'm just going to join uh christianity and uh and then i'll find out which religion is true later but at least i'll be a christian in a christian world and it's going to be a lot easier to worship god that way and then i'll sort of make that painful transition into into islam later once i've uh you know got my feet wet with pr worshipping and praising god and once i have educated myself about uh which of the three monotheistic religions really has the best claim uh to be the one true religion so that's the short the long and the short of it okay interesting you know um because i did i didn't really have that experience you know whenever i first became a christian again like i i say again because i feel like i wasn't a christian necessarily when i was a young man right because i mean i don't know if you can really grow up being a christian when you're seven eight nine years old you know i mean some people say yeah but um i i guess um whenever i really started believing and looking into um christianity um i i guess that that was kind of the opposite of my take like i had grown up in church and things like that um as a young man until i was a little bit older and so i didn't think i want to go worship in a church you know i thought you know i find myself justifying not going through christ's words like where he says don't go pray in the synagogues like the hypocrites do right and things like this you know don't don't pray in public and don't don't have the best seats in the synagogue and you know all these things where the prey in your closet you know and i found myself taking these words and saying that sounds more reasonable that sounds like something i you know i pray in my home i you know i'm i'm so that's interesting that you that you that you went that way that you desired yeah i just wanna i just wanna let you know that uh it wasn't an either or for me it was both and okay there's there i i actually prefer the the quiet time at home praying to um you know i gotta like put on clothes and go outside in the freezing snow to go to church i mean yeah it's refreshing and once i'm there i'm very happy to be at church but i mean i'm i'm an introvert i'm a loner i'm you know eccentric i'd rather just be at home praying alone you know it's it's it suits me better but there is a component to my faith journey that i have to do this public worship is very important and it turns out it turns out that it's very important for the church too if you read the catechism of the catholic church one quarter of the book is dedicated to the public prayer and another quarters dedicated to private prayer okay and then you've got another quarter about morality and another quarter about the ten commandments what do we believe so it's an interesting breakdown that's pretty much that's pretty much how i came as a generic monotheist to christianity i already had that basic breakdown of four quarters like that pretty much that represented my uh my outlook intuitively anyway what well interesting um yeah so i have a few friends that are routinely on my shows that show that um are catholic well one is um a catholic named dry apologist are you familiar with him no okay well he's routinely on my show good friend of mine and then i have another person that's on my show a lot uh nicholas strode now he's not a catholic anymore um he is a theist now right and he basically just takes his own experience with god as a um you know as his kind of proof for god or his you know he just uses his experience he doesn't but it's so funny that you'll be talking to him and and and if you don't hold up like the cat like like i don't hold to a lot of the traditions yeah and he'll be like what why don't you hold to the traditions you know like you got to do that like that's part of the thing why would you not hold to this you know and we start talking about solo scriptura and these kind of things and and uh and the more i think about it i guess i'm not solo scriptura in the sense that i look at nature as revelation right and so i look at both what nature and the revelation that god gave but i don't put a whole lot of my confidence in the popes or church fathers right and uh i know that you as a catholic you you take the all of the catholic um you think that the pope is the vicar of christ that they're all authoritative and that they can trace their lineage all the way back yeah so why don't you tell us a little bit about that and tell and and maybe elaborate on why i should take the traditions more seriously you know well it all has to do with uh the basic underlying issue that i'd like to press with you and with every non-catholic christian is authority where do you get the authority to say this is the canon of scripture where do you get the authority to interpret scripture where do you get the authority to say that this tradition is valid the other one's invalid uh to say that this council was ecumenical and that one wasn't like where where do you get the authority i mean i get it from the church right and so i this is the underlying authority i mean i i'm a bit of an oddball um among catholics i mean it's not like i represent the quote-unquote normal average catholic i'm a bit of a weirdo and that's um you know that's on me as a character defect but um you know i'm a young earth creationist which is very odd these days i'm uh you know i i but i believe the church obliges us to believe that that's that's my interpretation of tradition i'm not gonna i'm not going to push it too hard i mean i push it i do push it adamantly but only because i'm excited by it i mean if you're a catholic and you don't believe in young earth creationism if you believe in some sort of theistic evolution i think it's absurd and i think that tradition and even pure reason and philosophy can show that it's untenable it's completely untenable so let's start there yeah sure um so first of all like there are catholic apologists that are old earth creationists older frictionists yes yeah like i believe uh if i'm remembering correctly i believe trent horn yeah maybe one of those uh dinesh de souza may or may not be i can't remember specifically i was thinking he was but i could be wrong about that i should say um what do you think about them like i don't see i don't recall any dogma of the catholic church that says that you're not allowed to believe in the the old earth position there there's no explicit dogma saying um for example the eve was created from adam's side okay but there's so much tradition that i think it's i think it's uh i think it's a traditional teaching that can't be overturned certainly not by some offhand comment by a recent pope you know at the uh pontifical uh whatever it's called the pontifical academy of sciences like just some offhand comment that during a speech at the pontifical uh academy of sciences that's not going to overturn two thousand years worth of tradition and uh you know in cyclicals by popes they talk about eve being formed from adam's side and this sort of thing and uh the iconography and uh you know there's so much even in the liturgy uh in the liturgies of the catholic church we have reference to the earth being well under 8 000 years old and stuff like that there's a lot of tradition so um i mean and there are dogmas there are infallible dogmas that support young earth creationism and which make old earth creationism untenable one of the one of them is that god created a good world right and that sin and uh the evil entered the world through sin original sin and these are antennae these are completely incompatible with old earth creationism uh from what i've understood um and then there's that uh famous um dogma infallible dogma that the human soul is the form of the human body that that makes absolutely impossible any sort of um um evolution of the human body from a non-human parent it's absolutely impossible and there's some misconceptions in the catholic church they think oh well in you know in 1950 or whatever it was uh pope so and so i forget who it was maybe pope pius xii uh or some i can't remember the dates and the exact popes but recently someone said uh maybe was leo the 13th i'm not sure but someone said uh let's examine the possibility that the that adam's body uh was created out of pre-existing living matter right but there were many many caveats on that many cautions were expressed in this papal bull or whatever it was encyclical and it wasn't a free-for-all it was one very narrow and specific form of special transformism over against special creation i believe in special creation boom from the dust adams made boom from the rib eve is made boom you know and like uh god you know he he might have you know if it's six literal days i'm not fully committed to that but it seems reasonable if it's six literal days and i made this he made that he made the other thing he made the humans whatever and uh special transformism uh says that it's a very narrow form of theistic evolution that talks about how the body was molded by god out of pre-existing living matter and that particular pope in history i'll have to look up who it was said that we can investigate this but we need to always um we are not allowed to treat evolution any form of evolution as an established fact and we have to always submit to the final um teaching of the church you know the approval of the church or the the teaching of the church so it was a very very narrow scope that was given to a very very narrow form of theistic evolution and but people have gone to town in the catholic church and they've just given themselves license to believe in all kinds of wild things that don't agree with scripture and with tradition and i think the reason they're doing that is because it's just embarrassing to look like a complete tin hat wearing uh when we have all this fancy science today that everyone's on board everyone everyone's completely convinced that the consensus in biology and cosmology and everything is overwhelming and that there's absolutely no way that we can believe in a young earth but i uh i ha i subscribe to a hierarchy in the sciences where god is science itself capital s and then there is uh you know divine revelation and then there's theology based on that and then there's philosophy and then there's uh natural science beneath that so i don't get excited about natural science i get excited about god revelation theology philosophy and natural science is mildly interesting but i don't get excited about it and i certainly don't bow down to it the way a lot of catholics unfortunately seem to be doing today here well um thanks so much for that answer and uh so i guess there's a lot of stuff there i'd like to um talk about um first i guess i would say that i can see why you would come about it the way you do um i feel like and i've said this before on my show that i feel like um a lot of times when people are against uh an old earth it's because they think that people are trying to not um that people are trying to justify modern science in light or the the bible in light of modern science and that people are are not keeping true to the word so you mentioned the sixth day you mentioned the traditions and you mentioned the six days so uh i don't know if you're familiar but um a lot of the catholic and protestant uh theologians that hold to an old earth they uh typically cite augustine because or augustine however you want to say um because he actually said um now i don't necessarily agree with the way he's coming about it but he said this may not be six literal days because the sun wasn't created till the fourth day and so he he gave this kind of um he gave some some room there and he's not just you know some modern day bishop obviously you know and so he gave some room there for people to go maybe he's right about that and but then the other the other question comes up is is when you're looking at literature you want to ask um what is what are they trying to say literally and what are are we interpreting it literally or literalistically so what i mean by that is that there could be a reading where you're taking something literally for example if christ says i am the door does he mean that he's a door literally well yeah he does in a way right but if you mean literalistically as in every component that the text says is the exact thing that he means yeah then you're gonna take it out of its context but somebody could do the same thing and go well hold on a second but let's not try and uh water it down maybe you know maybe he was a door or something you know what i mean i'm just saying like that that's some of the um the rationale can i interject here for a second just to make a very uh important distinction i did not come to young earth creationism through scripture uh as saint augustine famously said uh i would not even believe in scripture were not for the authority the holy roman catholic church so i came to young earth creationism via the infallible dogma that there is one and only one immaculate conception so adam because he was sinless when he was created by god he hadn't fallen yet so he was sinless so if he were in the womb of some beast he would have been necessarily immaculately conceived so that's what triggered me to say okay there's only one immaculate conception that's a dogma of the church and so therefore uh adam was not conceived in the womb of a beast now i've since uh you know i've since come to stretch my mind to the point where i could find a solution where uh adam was conceived in the womb of a beast but he was still not technically an immaculate conception because uh because of the the the we're in a different world now like we're in a fallen world now that's what gives the immaculate conception its meaning and so you know pre-fall and post-fall they're two different uh contexts and so we can't we can't make that we can't we can't rule out the fact that he was conceived in the womb of a beast but since um having my ears perked by that dogma and digging into young earth creationism i've discovered uh these other dogmas which don't explicitly out rule old earth creationism but which imply they have logical implications which i think are uh very clearly uh incompatible with any form of atheistic evolution and then like i said looking at the iconography of the church consistently looking at the liturgy of the church looking at the tradition of the church and the the overwhelming weight of authority and the authoritative and infallible pronouncements uh about the literal historical meaning of the first 11 chapters of genesis it's it's unbelievable i mean it's it's like there's a mountain of weight on my side of the of this question and a few a handful of ambiguous comments by a few recent popes on the other hand it's really embarrassing if you start to look at it that way objectively and so that's why i continue to be a young earth creationist but it had nothing to do with reading genesis and saying oh i've got i'm going to like use private judgment to interpret this and i'm going to take it all literalistically and that's why i'm young earth creationist no i think that's absolutely ridiculous i i i would not believe in the scriptures at all where not for the authority of the holy roman catholic church and that's why i'm a catholic that's and that's why i emphasize authority so strongly and uh um but uh yeah i guess i'll end that my thought there okay sure so um obviously i mean i've even used um um augustine's quote before you say that like well maybe genesis wasn't talking about a literal six you know day period but maybe what this is getting us into is the more deeper or more foundational question about tradition rather than about a specific like that so let's talk about tradition and um a lot of my catholic friends are very heavy on catholic tradition uh as as a as a fact most would believe that the pope is actually infallible right that there's an infallible rule of the pope the stand-in for god we take as well he's the victory of the god man jesus christ uh but you you need to understand i hope you do already understand i hope your listeners and watchers do understand that infallibility is a negative power it's like the pope is a human he's fallible he's a sinner but when he goes to teach something for all the faithful to to believe he will be prevented boom by the holy spirit from teaching error concerning faith and morals um there are four manifestations of infallibility in the in the holy roman catholic church one of them is the ex-catholic statements where the pope acts without the consent of the church so the assumption of mary is one example the immaculate conception is another then we have the ordinary magisterium of the church and then we have ecumenical councils of the church and then we have the sense of the faithful the census fidelium which is a passive form of infallibility but it's a form of infallibility nonetheless it says that whenever i as a faithful catholic believe and regurgitate the dogmas of the church i can't i can't be wrong and whatever whatever the entire church from the pope all the way down to the little do we be catholic like myself whatever we unanimously believe cannot be wrong so that's a form of that's a form of infallibility that's manifest in the church at all times now if you if you try to dig into that and examine that too closely you're going to end up with some paradoxes like well how how is it that every catholic that i've met disagrees about almost everything i mean that's that's a fact that's a manifest fact i've never met anyone on the planet that agrees completely with me about anything that was when i was an agnostic when i was an atheist when i was a satanist when i was a generic monotheist and now that i'm a catholic people don't agree unanimously right so uh if you zoom in too closely you're gonna run into some paradox there but i believe because the church teaches me that it's a fact that the census fidelium is that form of infallibility i believe it i don't understand it but i think there's a truth there that will be revealed by god at the general judgment okay um yeah so um that's an interesting take and and i guess what i would ask is um so one of my big questions is do you believe that all of the early church popes or for for the listeners like the term church fathers the term father is pope that's the truth well the term is a term for church fathers like the early church fathers were called the early church popes really now i know catholicism uh as in roman catholicism differs on that okay as in their pope itself there is only one pope the bishop of rome that's the victor of god yeah but i'm saying the term of papa father yeah father father right exactly so whenever i speak of the because sometimes you'll see in older writings they'll refer to the an early church pope a lot of times they just mean an early church father like okay you know tertullian or somebody like that where you might not necessarily think is a pope right in that way so do you think that the early church fathers also hold uh because they're part of the tradition yeah that leads up the chain of custody yeah do you think that that their words have the same type of uh i guess uh veracity yeah yeah it's a it's it's a it's a teaching of the church that they cannot air when they're when they are when there's an overwhelming consensus so again that's if you zoom in too closely you're going to find well you know what exactly is a consensus because it's hard to find 100 right um but it's it's a principle of the church that if the majority of the church fathers agree on something then we can't uh we have to accept that you know there is a lot of weight on the consensus the consensus of their early church fathers and yeah i i wanted to say something about um the popes but i can't remember you prompted a question but it'll come to me as you continue uh okay with your questions so yeah i guess my question was um what do we do when they differ so for example some of the early church fathers they thought the book of enoch was holy scripture yeah and um i would say that i think i would say i would have to make sure but from the scholar that i listened to on the early church fathers i think they would the majority would say that the deuterocannon was not in the cannon yeah what do you think about three i'm talking about before 325 obviously yeah yeah yeah well there's a there i think the best examples are things like arianism where it dominated the bishops the bishops of the church were dominated by the heresy of arianism and then once it was um condemned as a heresy then it draws that line in the sand like you want to be a catholic you got to get on this side of that line i mean there's just there's no other way to to to describe the un you know the organic development of catholic doctrine it's like once that line is drawn infallibly you have to make a choice okay do you want to hold on to your arianism or do you want to be catholic that's it you know and it's the same thing with the um a later development which was the doctrine of the immaculate conception there were lots of voices including saint thomas aquinas against the immaculate conception but once it's defined dogmatically as it was you have to make a choice do i want to be do i want to be catholic or not i mean it's it's that simple so it's the same thing with the church fathers was it defined by the church or not and if not they had the freedom to speculate and to have uh to hash it out and to you know to speculate within within the bounds of reason and obedience sure so um for the people that are just coming in we have catholic verses with us david and um david i'm actually a fan of his work david is a very bright person uh you might if you just came in you might think that i'm grilling him on some of these questions about catholicism it's not the case i i'm like i say i think that he's very bright i listen to his material routinely and i suggest that you go and subscribe to his channel if you haven't already um because he has talked to aaron rob matt dillahunty inspiring philosophy tom jump uh you he talked to so many people um grandmappy uh is a big name that that you would know um just a lot of people that i'm that i like listening to as well um i don't see how you made it through the interview with aaron rob sometimes besides that he's my favorite and i gotta say this that was the best that was probably the best um discussion i've seen with their hard there's two of them and one of them is just him kind of talking about evolution yet the first one i mean i just felt like he took on your task you know you know i just met him that day like i had never heard of him i had no idea who this person was i just i i saw him another big name that you shouldn't throw up there is uh steve mcrae i really love steve mccree so i'm uh i'm a chat mod on steve's channel steve uh i like steve as well yeah so we're friends and um but there's a so i did listen to that one actually too and and that one was um interesting because i didn't know steve grew up in the mormon church and so i yeah i knew he did because of his debate with trent doherty which is another catholic which i've reviewed trent dougherty versus arn roth that was my first video on youtube is a review of that i thought trent doherty did phenomenal like he's just such a smart person he's and he's a he's an evolutionist now he says it's a fact like so you know i know you guys disagree on that but it might be that might make for an interesting conversation oh yeah i wanted to say something this is what i was uh trying to remember um you know there's this whole issue of authority and the magisterium the living magisterium is the current pope and the bishops who are the faithful bishops who teach in union with the current pope okay so that's that's the central issue for me this whole thing with young earth creationism is tertiary it's not even secondary it's tertiary okay it's a fun hobby for me i'm excited about it i think it's true but it's not the focus of the catholic church right now the focus of the catholic church church right now is stewardship of the planet social justice all this stuff that's seen as progressive light right wing uh sorry left-wing like uh wacky uh you know communism by the those who are on the right they just hate pope francis and everything he stands for but i'm a catholic i love the pope i love the emphasis that he's placing on love of neighbor and charity and the option you know for the for the poor and i love the emphasis he's giving the church and that's where i have to if i'm going to be catholic i have to pay heed to that right and readers and cyclicals and all that so the young earth creationism thing is fun and exciting for me but it's really far down the list when it comes to the priority of the church today if down the road the church says oh we gotta we gotta take control of this uh evolution and uh we've gotta address this problem of the uh mis you know misinformation about evolution that's everywhere then that's what the church will do that's not what the church is concerned with right now so it's not a big big big big deal it's just fun for me because it's wacky and weird and i i like i like i want to bounce this idea off you just briefly the proximity that i have living in a in a universe that's less than 8 000 years old the proximity i have to the garden of eden i think every old earth creationist should be jealous of me the proximity that i have in my mind whether it's true or false the proximity i have to the fall i mean it's just everything is closer everything is more tangible everything there's there's less um cloudiness in when i read genesis it's like i have to i have to acknowledge my part in salvation history and how fresh and recent the fall is and the flood and the tower of babel and all that sort of stuff it comes to life and it gives you more of a connection so i wanted to bounce that off you do you feel like there's an attraction to that and if you could believe it would you like to believe it the way that i believe it yeah i would actually a lot of my listeners won't know this but early earlier in my walk i was a young earth creationist okay um yeah i actually believe that because the exactly why a lot of young earth creationists believe it is because they think if you don't believe it that you're trying to water down scripture or do something like this and i feel like sometimes people can be and this may not be the case with you obviously but i feel like sometimes people can be so afraid of that that they see any variant from what the western of what western thought has been that they might you know like like i listen to um a scholar named dr michael heiser which my audience knows i bring him up all the time probably too much but i like one of the things that he says um where he talks about you know what the hebrews thought about the universe and how they conceived of the universe and he said it says things like god reveals things to people in a way they can know them he comes to them in their own time and place he like and then i think about this think about a bible verse like god has all the hairs on your head numbered well what if he would have told the hebrews i have all the molecules in your dna strand numbered they would not have understood that so what i'm getting at with that is that he reveals things to people in a way they can know them in the time he reveals them so he couldn't have revealed something to them in in a time that let's say their mind couldn't grasp but perhaps it's the only way that he could have revealed something to them such that they could understand it at that time and that it would be uh gra it would be malleable or enough or open enough or fluid enough that it can match modern day science and that's why you have so many people uh let's say um taking that view on it and again i would obviously point to augustine and say that augustine or augustine said that um maybe there weren't six literal days because the sun wasn't made to the fourth day so maybe these were periods for example uh all the way back before science ever became popular before i mean before it ever became like modern science when this is back in the third century or the fourth century and so um you know things like that i would just say that it could just be that god reveals things to people in a in a way in their time in a way that they can understand them so but but i think that like you say that's kind of a tertiary thing i don't think that has anything to do with salvation but rather maybe there was something else i'd want to say about um the tradition so yeah um i guess what you were what you were saying was that like when we see the early church taking uh scripture and let's say not uh let's say a lot of the early church doesn't accept the deuterocannon are you saying that um is that out and this is i'm just asking you because i want to know not because i'm trying to pressure you yeah but do we do we accept it because a later um there's like a let's say a later uh poke or council uh dog dogmatizes it or like how does that how does that work yeah yeah this is this is the whole organic development of doctrine is that men in the church are fallible they're sinners and they are confronted with a heresy or the confront confronted with a crisis in the church or their research into a scripture leads them to ask questions which are deep and perplexing and when the need arises they confront these paradoxes and they if they're able to with god's help they can come to a decision and they can establish the truth in a matter right and so with christology and with uh the trinity and these things took time to hash oh it's it's just men fallible men sinners like you and like me but they're members of the early church and they cared about the truth and they sought the truth and of course with god's help they found the truth and the the holy spirit is leading the church into all truth but it's a rocky road because we're in a fallen world right it's messy it's ugly and it's a you know it's a teaching of the church that the arguments are not protected from error the the politics surrounding a council or a judgment are not protected from error the you know the the discussions uh surrounding uh the development of a doctrine are not protected from error only the doctrine itself when it's formally defined is protected from error so we can't point to the arguments and say look this infallible doctrine has infallible arguments no not at all we might be completely wrong about our arguments i don't think we are but in in principle we could be completely wrong about how we arrived at this this doctrine but the holy spirit allowed us to promulgate it and define it because it's true it's eternally true even though our understanding that led to that may have been flawed and it probably is flawed okay well great thanks for that answer and i got maybe one more about the church and tradition and then maybe i'll brag on you for a few minutes sure i really do uh i really do um appreciate um david and i really enjoy his um his channel so if you haven't subscribed definitely go and do that um one more thing i wanted to ask you about with the council of trent sure i've heard you mention it on your uh show and you've asked some of your listeners like have you heard of the council of trent or have you read any of their stuff and one of the big ones that i hear protestants bringing up a lot and you'll probably be pretty familiar with it is the count uh canon 9 that if uh it says like if any one say that by faith alone the empire is justified and such wise as to mean that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to the uh obtaining the grace of justification and that is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will let him be anathema yep what what do you think about that well i i like to the way i like to talk to protestants about justification sanctification is with a catchy little phrase everything is grace everything is grace right sin is not grace because sin is not a thing right evil is not grace because evil is not a thing there's no substance to evil so everything is good everything is good and everything is grace when i prepare to pray it's at the prompting of grace that i prepare to pray when i'm praying it's it's grace that's praying in me when i complete my prayer it's grace that completes the prayer if i do a good work it's grace that prepares me for the good work does the good work and completes the good work it's all grace okay but we what that what that canon is saying is that my will is real my way my will is free i'm made in the image and likeness of god and so i have reason and free will and i have to cooperate with the grace i mean i could choose not to but if i want to go to heaven i have to cooperate and it's a free choice now the the thing the way i think about this cooperation grace and free will and saint augustine has a whole book just on grace and free will um the way i think about it is sort of like climbing a ladder or doing a three-legged race at the fair whatever you know what i mean it's like you take one step and god takes one step and it's like he's powering everything you do but you are cooperating you're helping your it's like maybe like a little baby that's helping you make some cookies it's like it's mostly the parent that's making the cookies but the baby is helping it's undeniable like i mean to say the baby's not helping is cruel you know the baby's helping and you're teaching the baby you know that's it so that's the way i see grace and our human free will cooperating together it's embarrassing how little we contribute but we do contribute it's essential that we acknowledge that we are contributing by our free will and it's like uh when we think about the mass uh if you've been to a catholic mass or not it's like we bring bread and wine these are called the gifts and then you know we bring it to christ the altar christus the priest the he's another christ on the on the altar and he's making the sacrifice making present again the mystical and timeless sacrifice of the once for all sacrifice of christ on on calvary representing it and that sacrifice is pleasing to god and the gifts are consecrated by christ through the priest and that bread and wine become the body blood soul and divinity of our lord and savior jesus christ and then we line up and we take we take that and the priest says the body of christ and we say amen what we're saying is that that consecrated host is the body of christ and that i am the body of christ right we're this is the communion this is this is like this is the whole point of religion is uh god became man so that we might become gods right that we might enter into the life of god so there's a strange exchange where that bread and wine that we bring where did we get it who made it whose bread is it whose wine is it is it's not the invention of man it's not the creation of man but we cooperated with god's good gifts to bring about the wine to bring about the bread so we just need to understand that everything is in exchange like that like we it's like that famous um proof of abiogenesis like the scientist says oh i can make uh i can make life out of non-living matter and uh god says okay show me and then the scientist grabs a hunk of mud and he says god says well whoa get your own make your own mud right like you have to make your own mud if you're gonna if you're gonna do it so it's that same sort of idea that exchange like everything we have why are we boasting like we didn't receive it when we obviously received every every good thing we have we have received right so it's that exchange i'm giving to god what he gave me and saint augustine famously said that when god crowns our merits he's crowning his gifts to us they're his gift to us so if you're a good boy and you strive to be virtuous that's his that's god's gift to you and when he crowns that he's crowning his own gift to you this is how the catholic church sees uh grace everything is grace okay so let me just ask you a couple little things about that then um one i would wonder about paul saying you know through faith alone by grace that no man should boast what do you think about that uh passage first of all did luther add the word along there i'm sorry you think that luther added the word i'm asking is that the passage where luther added the word alone are you familiar with that no i think so but i would i mean i would look it up there's one passage where where luther because faith alone the only place that faith alone appears is where it says we're not saved by faith alone right so if you're if you're thinking of another passage where it says faith alone then that was the one where luther added the word alone okay so let's um let's bypass that for the time being and let me ask you about the thief on the cross sure who merely had faith had no works in fact he was a convicted thief yeah and he just said remember me in your kingdom christ said you'll be in paradise what about something like that god is good he's generous you know he's good he's he's he's cooperating with each and every one of us all the time i don't see it you know i don't see it in uh ridiculous caricature triumphalist terms i see i see baptism as essential for salvation but god is not limited by that we humans have to conform to reality but god is the author of reality so when the church says you have to be baptized and you have to be a member of the visible church and you have to go to go to mass every sunday and you have to support the church financially and they're all they're called all kinds of precepts of the church right and then the ten commandments like there are all kinds of things you have to do as a catholic right it's not easy i mean there are sacrifices you have to make the sexual morality is very strict as you may know and their other you know their other um the bar is high in many respects okay but um god is you know god built church jesus christ built a church and this is i believe is the catholic church the fullness of christianity is uh to be had in the catholic church and you are you are considered a catholic you a converse contender you are considered a catholic not in good standing but in an imperfect relationship with the church you're a christian assuming you've been baptized in the name of the father and the son and the holy spirit you are a christian you're a member of the catholic church you're in an imperfect relationship that's the catholic position but even those who are outside of christianity ostensibly they um there are there are means of salvation outside of the church that that they have access to and they're all designed to bring those people too into the closest possible union with with christ and i see i see the catholic church as the mystical body of christ so i'm giving a very rambling answer here but basically god is cooperating with everyone and he is not bound by the limitations that you and i are bound by so when the church tells you you have to baptize your baby for them to be saved um if you're about if your baby's not baptized god can still save the baby you understand there's an asymmetry between the creature and the creator so um but you can't presume on that the sin of presumption is to say well god can save my baby without baptism so i'm not going to baptize the baby okay so i'm going to just read a couple of verses here um galatians 1 says that yet a person is justified uh is not justified by work so the law but through faith and in christ yeah because therefore since we have been justified by faith we have peace with god uh through the lord jesus christ james says you see a person is justified it is uh that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone right that that would be the passage that you would probably go to i don't go to passages i i don't i don't dwell on the bible myself when it comes to uh apologetics with with anyone really i mean except you know uh if i'm talking to a catholic and they're confused about dogma i might talk about the bible with them but i don't i don't talk to non-catholics about the bible because we need to establish what the canon is and on what authority you know what the canon is all that sort of thing so i don't go to the bible right but if you you know uh one thing i could clarify about that um works of the law there's a very clear distinction that's been hashed out for a long time in the catholic church between the mosaic law and you know the the ten commandments i mean jesus christ says time and time again if you love me keep my commandments right that's not the mosaic law that's the ten commandments and if you want a nice overview of what is implied by each of the ten commandments and how broad that and how wide that net is uh with the ten commandments i think the catechism of the catholic church is a good place to start because it touches on everything in morality the ten commandments uh very nuanced uh teachings in the catechism about the the ten commandments very very broad there's more like catholic uh what would you say catholic tradition the the only thing i read that i've been reading it's a new thing i've started uh i'm starting a series of readings of my highlights on my kindle device of the 16 documents of vatican ii which is the most recent ecumenical council of the of the church and the reason i'm excited about it is because it's the most recent ecumenical council it's very controversial those uh on the right within the church uh shy away from vatican ii they deny the validity of valid or at least the applicability of vatican ii instead of a cantus outright deny that it's an ecumenical council and um they deny the recent popes as well so that's the only thing that i really do a reading of everything else is just either interviews or um you know just my impromptu thoughts but i just i do want to uh thank you for having me on i do want to um say that all the praise and compliments you've been lavishing on me are over the top like inaccurate and exaggerated and i don't i don't accept any of it but thank you very much i appreciate the gesture very nice of you but uh my ego is like uh huge and i'm a vain and i'm proud and i don't want uh it just proves don't you so yeah i mean it's very very interesting uh very i love all the uh everything that we've been hearing out of out of david so check out his channel if you haven't already he talks to a lot of oh my catholic friend comes in right at the end of where i'll shut it to him i apologize his name to apologetic showdown now but um the dry apologist yeah you missed it uh caleb but um anyway yeah thanks so much for coming on and uh i hope to have you back on in the future because uh i'm very interested in the the catholic church and while i'm not a catholic um you know sometimes i listen to material where they are let's say heavily criticizing or or trying to break down parts of the catholic church and sometimes i like to have a catholic perspective then to kind of give me the other side and say well hold on here's why i don't buy that you know and so thanks for coming on and i hope you would you would um i hope you would come on again soon for sure and for my because i'm live streaming this myself for my uh few listeners and watchers uh head over and subscribe to converse contender a real sweet guy he's um it's the first time i've met you converse contender but i saw you in the comments a couple times always very thoughtful always very considerate kind and of course like i said very generous so thank you very much i'm going to sign off now and are you going to continue and have more people uh open up the conversation when i step out yes i may uh yeah i may be uh i may just start an after show i'll probably just end this stream start an after show and let people come in i've got some homework and stuff to do but i um i may let some people come in and talk and just um you know uh but but if you want what i'll do is i'll send you the link to the new um stream just in case you want to come back on yeah of course i do of course they do all right excellent thank you so much go ahead and send that over to you when you sign off thank you so much we'll talk soon god thank you so much we'll talk soon god bless thank you bye

CVS Live Guest - 2020-02-15 - Kieran Lisney

so we are live I'm with Karen Liz NIC here and say hello how's it going what do you been up to what you want to talk about today oh there's been a ton going on but I don't know I just we haven't we haven't had a conversation broadcasted before live I thought it would be kind of interesting to do watching my boy Matt go on a couple of times and some of the previous guests that you did like scheduled you know edited interviews with was kind of cool to see it in like a live context so I thought it'd be pretty cool plus sir there has been a lot going on as far as that transition and the orthodoxy and leaving Protestantism and also a growing interest I guess you could call it a growing interest a growing interest in young Earth Creationism because you and I never really discussed that before and since he came out as you know ye see I mean I've pretty much always held that position I've never bought into to evolutionary theory or you know people like to differentiate between Darwinian evolutionary theory and it's just it's all the same to me and I that what's his name Nicholas Critic that's yeah yeah yeah but that dude and I share a lot of the same beliefs so we connected slightly through the comments on your channel and yeah I don't know that's an interesting topic as well yeah so do you believe in the firm and firmament and geocentrism that um so I'm hazy on that stuff however what I do find interesting is the Van Allen radiation belt if that would potentially be some sort of like archetype of the the firmament or whatever you want to call it whatever scripture calls it because supposedly we don't have the technology now to go back to the moon which is why we haven't gone back to the moon since like 73 or whatever it is supposedly like NASA's been documented saying it video saying essentially that we just don't have the technology to do it anymore yeah we pour billions upon billions of dollars into the NASA space program every single year but we don't know where it goes right so the question is essentially where does that money go is it is it simply being pushed into a propaganda machine to make us think that they're doing a whole bunch of research in the ISS and all this stuff like it just it doesn't add up so we know like given supposedly there's no way that we can traverse the Van Allen radiation belt because it would just destroy every single ship that we have and if that's true then you look at the you look at like the the lunar module the one that landed on the moon and it's like essentially just tinfoil and like almost looks like PVC and tin foil put together somehow that got through the Van Allen radiation belt but now we can't surpass it for some reason which to me doesn't really make a whole lot of sense so I question it the like I said before the the details of it I'm hazy with but I'm typically skeptical of anything that they say oh we found this black hole in space or we found this Sattar the other it's like yeah we don't know you know 97% of what's in our oceans but we know more about space which is infinite seemingly infinite it's not really but you get what I'm saying it's big just yeah it's real big so I don't know that's interesting allegedly it's big but yeah you know I used to work in the Canadian Space Agency here in Quebec Canada and I was working on a small part of the Odin project which was an international just a small part of an International Space Station program and everything was coordinated code-named with the Norse gods you know Cyrus and it's interesting I mean my my little piece of the puzzle was so small I was just basically calibrating and testing one tiny piece of equipment that was going to be part it's hard to know what ultimate reality is especially if you approach it from a naive secular point of view if you have religion if you have gotten religion then these questions fade into insignificance as san agustin famously said we don't need to know about the stars in order to go to heaven and but it is you know I do agree that the truth is important every single aspect of the truth is important including the spatial coordinates and orientation of every single particle in the universe it is important and but in terms of conspiracy theories and all that sort of thing it's fun but I think a lot of its most of it is for referral I think it's demonic actually most of it it's just distraction yeah sure absolutely I think that it is super easy to get hung up on you know what's the Luciferian plan going on behind X Y & Z and really it is I mean speaking from experience it is a distraction from what's actually important which is your relationship with Christ and and following his statutes and commandments the one thing that I will say though a lot of people speculate are still like why would you even lie about something like that like why would you lie that space is you know just as gigantic as they tell us is you know that it is and essentially what I've come to the conclusion of is that it's essentially just to make us feel like we're insignificant and that if there is a God he's so far removed from us that it's impossible to communicate with him it's impossible to have a relationship with them so a lot of it has to revolve around essentially dismantling this idea of a personal God and I mean essentially that's all you have to know you know and but beyond that getting into the details it does just become a distraction at a certain point so yeah Salvation history what is what it's all about what is your particular role in Salvation history and what's your one-on-one relationship with God and with the Godman Jesus Christ in particular since we are man and God took on flesh and became a man and all things worse in its it becomes very central to the Christians life to have that personal relationship with the god man Jesus Christ and when it comes to judgment your particular judgment you're going to be alone with God and you can't blame Hitler or Nassau or any of the bad guys we won't be able to blame anyone we're gonna have to deal with the choices we made and you know the the evil that we did willingly and knowingly so yeah that's why yeah that's why I don't get too excited about conspiracy theories I'm a bit wary of them but I do admit that it's fun to get to think about it it's it's it's a sort of a comfort comfortable place you can sink into on your couch and say okay we understand the the big picture they're good guys bad guys and I'm on the good guys team and let's round up the bad guys but it's a little bit more complex complex than that because Christ died for the bad guys too right yeah absolutely absolutely what about hell did you have any reaction to Chris Bates interview do you believe in hell oh of course I believe you know yeah I don't right it's just unconvincing like there's there's it seems to be a growing trend to be honest with you I believe in annihilationism I just don't really understand the the want or the need to to rid that I think it comes from a an improper understanding of Hell altogether we do have like we have certain descriptive what I guess what could be called descriptive passages about help in in Scripture but we don't have a whole lot about it you simply know that it's eternal and that it's where you go if you don't want to be with God yeah this is CS Lewis said he said that the gates of hell are locked from the inside and learning from the Orthodox perspective of heaven and hell and not so much as a spatiotemporal place but more or less the state of being that you're in after you leave this life it's interesting because I think I've heard you even say before that hell is filled with the love of God is it my rights to fire yeah that's the fire that burns it and so hearing that before as a Protestant you don't really understand that but as an Orthodox Christian you realize that actually no that's the that's the classic Christian view is that it's it's not about being punished by God simply that you're not able to be in his presence and so rather than refining you and glorifying you it just burns you up and it destroys you essentially not in a nihilistic way but in a way that essentially just this is you're in a constant trajectory towards God from the moment that you say yes to Jesus Christ in this in this life now and then continuing on in heaven it's the same way with with the opposite you know we we can go into a constant trajectory to away from God and hell is no different so it is everlasting it's just a constant degradation of yourself because you don't want anything to do with God and so when you think about it in terms of that you know it's not just as simple as saying well yes I choose God but really if you do choose God I mean you're gonna follow him that's going to lead to salvation scripture says as much drew did tradition says the same thing the church universal has always said that and so it is your decision whether or not you want to go there so I don't really see the need to to castigate the person that says that you know hell exists and you can go there I just don't see I just don't see the reason behind that so what about purgatory because most Orthodox say there's no such thing or there's no explicit teaching a worth in orthodoxy of purgatory but nothing impure can stand before God do you think everyone is purified on earth before their death that ends up in heaven or do you believe in some sort of purgatory is there a form of Orthodox teaching that accomplishes the same thing as purgatory in the Catholic teachings yes so there's no like definitive teaching on purgatory as the Catholic Church would define it in the Catechism now we wouldn't we certainly would not say that every soul is is automatically per gated on this earth and then the minute that they that they are separated from their body they're with the Lord we we don't really make a claim on what exactly happens afterwards that's why we still pray for the dead because we believe that prayer is ultimately timeless it's outside space and time so people kind of get confused they say oh well you're praying for souls that must mean that you're you believe in purgatory and it's it's more nuanced than that there is a generalized view of what are called toll houses in in orthodoxy which essentially is a final testing allowed by God to see if you're ready to enter the kingdom of heaven but it's not dogmatic so you're gonna find orthodox that believe in it and some that don't there have been orthodox saints that have attested to it and there have been Orthodox Saints that haven't said anything about it at all so we don't we don't really know but as far as the one thing that orthodoxy I think would explicitly denies that there's ongoing suffering after death as a means of purgation it would essentially just be a test of some other form but we don't know the exact mechanics of it if God wants to somebody and obviously God he can do that so we just we don't make any definitive pronouncements on it we don't deny purgatory flat-out it's just like the unions in the Catholic Church you know the Eastern Catholics lots of them don't hold the purgatory they're allowed to believe in something sort of alternative to it so oh really it's a yeah yeah if you look there's actually there's a few doctrines that the are kind of split on like for instance st. Gregory Palamas he was condemned by the Catholic Church a number of years ago but then in in the recent future of the Catholic Church he was uncondensed at were because of his famous debate with bar Leone and the essence energies distinction and so there are a lot of Eastern Catholics when they first came to the Catholic Church and under the safety of the the Roman pontiff that essentially just threw out tons of Eastern Catholic tradition but have started to readapt a lot of it so you have Eastern Catholics that don't believe in purgatory that don't believe in absolute divine simplicity the way that Thomas Aquinas would state it etc etc it's very it's very complicated it's very nuanced and I don't have a great understanding of it but yeah interesting very interesting I'll have to look into that with the the Uniate churches that came back I just want to give a quick shout out to my friend lo Lord Mozart 308 I love that Dean he's in the live chat now and my new friend converse contender he's in the live chat just want to give a shout out I don't know if you listen to my interview he interviewed me on his channel Congress contender I just look so sweet guys it's great sweet pie it's Fanta yeah yeah that was fantastic he really opened minded it was really cool yeah so let's dig in a little bit to the divine energies what are the real distinctions between the Orthodox position and the the Catholic position because as we said in email we went back and forth a couple of times and I said there's that whole Franciscan school which takes a different approach to the divine of simplicity and different different subtle questions like that and Blessed John Duns Scotus makes some sort of formal distinction between the the reason the rational part of God and the volitional part of God so between free will and reason and God there's some sort of formal distinction that SCOTUS makes that Thomas Aquinas was unwilling to make or unable to make for whatever reason but just because you're a saint or and blessed doesn't mean that you're infallible it doesn't mean that you know everything that you can unravel all the mysteries of God certainly but just talk a little bit from your perspective where you think there might be a real difference between orthodoxy and Catholicism today that's really hard to say because I've gotten so many different opinions on it and it seems like a lot of people like I mean there there are Catholic dogmatic references reference books that you can go to like dens in ER is one of the most famous that have been use to to reference Catholic dogma and to be honest I'm not as familiar with what they would say on absolute divine simplicity simplicity if they take a more to Mystic sort of viewpoint on it I'd say that the Orthodox understanding of absolute divine simplicity is that there's no distinction between essence and energies so that might be a misconception on the Orthodox Christians art and so I'm trying to like wade through that and figure out is that actually what Catholic doctrine teaches if that if they do teach that dogmatically that there is no separation between essence and energy which I would find hard to believe because the Cappadocia pne's taught it many of the early church fathers taught the essence energies distinction and then it culminated in like the 13th or excuse me err there has always been this held belief that there is a divine simplicity to God but whether it's absolute and what absolute actually means is one of those things where it's kind of hard to parse out from a lay perspective somebody that's just looking into it so like my understanding of the essence energies distinction would be that we never interact with the essence of God his simple form we can only participate in the energies and the simple dumbed down analogy is essentially that if I were to come in direct contact with the Sun I would burn up and die I wouldn't actually be able to enjoy it or to communicate with the Sun but I can go outside and feel its rays and the energy of the Sun just as the plants do they use it to photosynthesize and make oxygen for us and so we're constantly in contact with the energies of the Sun and so the energies that are permeating off the Sun technically are the Sun but it's not it's not the essence of the Sun it's just the energy thereof and so that's what we would essentially say about God and so when you start to get into this distinction between essence and energies it affects pretty much everything about your theology it affects the hypostatic union of Jesus Christ it it has something to say about whether or not the Holy Spirit spy rates from both the father and the son or just the father you're the classic Filioque different difference in between Orthodox and Catholic it affects your so curiata G so how do you view heaven how do you hell it affects your eschatology I mean it literally touches upon everything so if there's an actual substantial difference between the Catholics and the Orthodox I've yet to really understand what that is because I get so many different opinions from both Orthodox and Catholics on that does that make sense yeah well when I look at these issues are so nuanced and subtle I what comes to mind is that sort of distinction between monism and monotheism is the infinite is the infinite distinct from the finite or is the infinite the source of the finite and there therefore the light is part and parcel of the infinite or you know I'm putting it in sloppy terms very sloppy terms but deification you know becoming you know heaven is partaking in the life of of God and entering into the life of the Trinity so that subtle distinction well is it like participation or is there a you know a real real entering into that essence and unification in a deeper level I I for one don't have a preference and whatever is true is good right and yeah I mean I could see dangers on both sides if we if we lean too far towards pantheism and monism well yeah we're every good monotheists ends up being a pantheist because that's all there is is God so in heaven expand theism but here below we were sort of being tested and if you're if you're a panther a pantheist here below you don't make it but if you're a monotheists here below then you get to enter into monies and more pantheism there's no if you if you lean too far that way then it would seem I think to obliterate our unique identity as individual persons and if so if you go too far the other way where there's you know you end up with something like Islam where the sovereignty of God is just sort of alienating so the the actual truth will be I think we should expect the unexpected when it comes to God and to heaven and our relationship with God but there are certain principles in the Catholic Church such that God in His sovereignty he's imperfectly simple but yeah and when he acts when he acts outside of the outside of the Godhead like in creation when God acts in creation it's always all three persons of the Trinity that are acting and what we have this attribution that were able to attribute to each of the three persons but there's the formal distinctions like this and when I think about the the perfections of God being identical among themselves and in God and with God all the perfections you know all the transcendental goodness truth beauty justice mercy life itself when we think about that infinite those infinite perfections how they're all identical among themselves and identical with God in the Godhead and then how here below we're able to parse them and treat of them separately when we talk about justice we're not necessarily explicitly dealing with issues of health even though they are connected and when we're talking about health were not necessarily explicitly addressing concerns about beauty but they are obviously connected and so all of the perfections here below can be treated piecemeal but at the same time they're all United and identical among themselves it would be we're not in a position here in this finite world to treat of each infinite perfection as as being I all of them as being identical among themselves we sort of we're sort of forced by our finite nature to treat them piecemeal so those are just some of my reflections on this whole question of essence and energies but it really it's really bullet really beyond me for the most part same yeah I would agree so are you happy with your orthodox journey have you got a spiritual director that you're continuing with talk a little bit about that yeah and I apologize if I'm shaking at all I'm super cold it's my basement oh my wife and my wife and my son are upstairs and he's about ready to go to sleep so you want to grab a sweater uh I don't want to go upstairs and disturb him so I'm just gonna kind of wing it I have mice I have my space heater right next to passive yes I do have a spiritual director father Hector he is the head pastor whatever you want to call him there's three priests at my church and the father deacon Theo dossier was just ordained like two and a half months ago so he's like a baby priest and father Hector is an arch priest so he's my father or he's my father confessor my spiritual director the whole nine but I'm still technically not a catechumen there is it's a delicate situation because of my wife she has no interest in becoming Orthodox so the ideal the ideal way to enter the church would be for my son and for my wife to come with me but yeah we're slowly starting to see that that might not be a possibility so yeah yeah I sympathize obviously you know my situation my wife's anti-catholic so that's never gonna happen or well it might happen but it'll be one of the greatest surprises one of the greatest miracles that ever happened yeah on God's green earth but I think I think your wife is probably a little bit more amenable given the fact that she's at least a Christian I an acting Christian oh yeah yeah she's like just a church yeah right she goes to that Baptist Church that I used to go to I still go with her on Sundays to support her but I do alternate like tomorrow I'm going to liturgy because I want to see sounds like yeah so there is the the the compromise on both ends I'll spend you know most Saturdays going to Vespers if I know that I can't go the liturgy on Sunday or whatever so it's a nice it's a it's usually a good occasion when I get to go to liturgy which is like once or twice a month it's also difficult I have a ten-month-old so like taking him to church my wife's church is at 10:45 and that's like right around it's nap time so like if I can't go with her to help take care of the baby because he's gonna be fussy and ornery and all that stuff like she just pretty much opts out of going because to go by herself is really a pain in the butt with you know our son and she doesn't get anything out of it anyhow so I like to I like to go with when I can so that I can at least encourage her to continue searching and that kind of stuff though yeah do you mind if I ask a couple of questions about your your move away from Protestantism into orthodoxy and how it bears on your relationship do you mind if I ask you about that yeah go ahead knit your one flesh because of the sacrament of marriage you agree yes so you should be able to communicate with your wife on a deep level and a very meaningful level about spiritual things and so it would seem to me that given the fact she's a practicing Christian you would be able to explain very clearly what opened up for you in your heart and mind that brought you to where you are today and so is the impediment that it's impossible to communicate or is it that everyone has to chew on and digest these ideas and come to it on their own or what's what's happening because it's very frustrating to me that people don't that people take a lot of time to adjust their position even if they are one flesh with their spouse and they they see a beautiful transformation or maybe they maybe she doesn't see it as a beautiful transformation but I certainly do but just talk a little bit about that intimacy that you have and why there is still a barrier and maybe free will is the key there I don't know but maybe you could just talk with that yeah I've talked a lot about a lot in my spiritual director about this you know what's the best way to communicate what I'm going through with my wife because my wife and I are best friends you know I spend all my time with her we know each other like the back of our hands we're gonna be together until the day we die so there is an intimacy there but I think when we're talking about up can you hear me I can hear you but your camera went off there that's okay it's a low power mode on my phone I might have to plug it in soon but I'm good for right now but essentially my my wife is she's basically just confused by the whole thing because she saw me as a Catholic then she saw me as a Protestant now she's seeing me as an Orthodox Christian and so you have to understand in in seven years that's a lot of change and transition and so she's just not I think she's kind of preparing herself for me to not be Orthodox in a year is if that makes sense and also I have a tendency to try and over explain to my wife and that doesn't really get us anywhere because my wife is very unfamiliar with Scripture and with theology as a whole so when I try converse with her and to explain the position in the area that I'm coming from to her it's basically like I'm starting from step 100 instead of step 1 and I don't know how to get back to the basics if that makes sense I don't know how to get back to the to the basics of even what the gospel is because even my view on what the gospel is has changed a little bit if that makes sense and yeah so I'm trying moreso to communicate my transition into Orthodoxy through my actions as opposed to my words and hopefully she'll see that and and notice hey there's something different about Kieran and I want a part of that is that the advice you got from your spiritual director yeah yeah pretty much actions speak louder than words absolutely yeah but the I understand everything you said then it makes sense but the the kernel of it really is the love and the union that you have to become one but you're still two you still have free will I mean this is the the essential the central point I want to focus on is the fact that you are one you do you do love each other in a very intimate way there's a DVD out there's a deep knowledge but there's still freewill and she's able to think her own thoughts and she has a different set of assumptions and much of the knowledge that you have is not really communicable because you need a certain basis for that knowledge you need a certain context for a knowledge sure yeah so there there will always be a little bit of a barrier this is what I'm this is what I'm getting at really is that barrier between husband and wife is it is it important is it important to you to get to the point where you could be on the same page because it will increase your intimacy even more or spiritually oh dude that's what I desire more than anything that's what I want for my wife and I but I think behind all of this is something that might even be a little bit more important which is that even if her and I aren't on the same wavelength spiritually right now it's the level of respect that her and I can still have for one another in allowing us to go and explore and do our the level of understanding that my wife has for me as a human being let alone a human being that changes his mind on things pretty regularly it's astounding the kind of patience that she has and so it's it's no different with this the fact that she says yeah go do your thing go go to liturgy go to best brews join the church do do what you want to do I think to me it means a lot though I do greatly desire to have her there with me but I think in the Liz new family specifically you know all the men are sort of I don't want to say cursed that's not the right word but we we all have the same with my father and my stepmother she's not a Catholic it's the same with my brother and his wife she's not a Catholic they're all Christians of some form or another but there's something about the Liz Neiman where we are very strong and this I don't want this to sound you know like it's most you know yeah like it's boasting or anything like that but essentially the Liz Neiman do have a very strong spiritual sort of sort of side to us and ironically enough it comes from the matriarch of the family my dad's mom so for some reason she passed on to all of us men the the strong spiritual side that she had and so that's where all of our hearts lie that's what we see is the most important and we tend to attract women that don't necessarily have the same sort of thing and maybe that's good because otherwise we might be tempted into pre lust or something like that but you know for us it just seems to be the pattern and and I think that's what I think that's ultimately what God has called us to because sometimes I look at people like couples at church and I'm like man I'm envious of that like they have their whole family here the husband and the wife are both receiving communion together with the same sort of reverence that's really beautiful but I have an awesome opportunity to really be saved essentially through my wife and through my son because now I have an extra cross that I have to carry that God has given me and so I fully believe that God has given me my my wife for a reason and if that's you know if if this is a part of that which I'm sure that it is then I wanted exactly how it's supposed to be I don't want it I don't want it manipulated so that it can temporarily benefit me or make me feel better or comfort me or whatever so yeah what about I want to ask a sort of peripheral question about your transition into Orthodoxy have you encountered a lot of animosity between those you may be on social media or maybe in real life more likely in social media but the truth the two camps fighting each other Orthodox and Catholic there's some sort of Facebook group that someone invited me to and I'm on it and I see some of the back and forth which is not terribly productive it's a lot of antagonism animosity how much of that are you exposed to and what's your attitude toward that sort of Bible it is it's prevalent everywhere on social media now there are the occasional what it's sort of this thing where it's like the the one Orthodox are the one Catholic that says like hey guys like you know it's probably not the most productive thing for us to be calling each other papists and you know divided Orthodox and all this kind of stuff and heretic and schismatic and bla bla bla bla bla the first person that says that gets chastised and eventually is said like oh you're just a liberal you know you're just a liberal thinking person and you want to compromise on the faith and so it is everywhere and it's really easy to be sucked into that sort of mentality and for me like I do like the first thing I do when I look at a video is scroll through the comments haha like I don't know if you do that yeah sure a lot of I'm sure a lot of people do that but dude I scroll through the comments I'm like all right let's see what trolls are out today and it's like my immediate response is like dude I want to totally just destroy them but that's been part of that's been part of my my growth right now like I don't know as much as I think I know you know what I mean and so like I should probably especially especially if it's at the expensive I want to debate you like what it what has I mean has debate really ever in the history of the world changed the opponent's mind it might have changed like one of the viewers mind of that particular debate or whatever but they're they're definitely speaking polemics that that sort of thing when you get into that area it just is like yeah I don't know if Christ would have been speaking like this like I don't get help even when he rebuked the Pharisees called them brood of vipers and you know essentially just destroyed them and ripped them up one side down the other it really it was a different flavor than a Christian who's totally imperfect and not God doing even worse than what Jesus did to the people that were unbelievers and so like I don't know dude it's it's a fine line like it's really hard like yes the truth matters yes we have to stand for what we believe is the Orthodox faith both Catholic and the Orthodox and Protestant even I'll throw them in even though I mean come on Protestantism but still like everybody is convinced of their own beliefs and it's we're just trying to figure that out and we should have a spirit of loving and kindness rather than trying to just rip each other apart it's it's really it's really tempting to do that though yeah I evolved into a sort of state of mind where I don't see argumentation as useful in apologetics I see argumentation as useful for those who are already committed to their worldview so if I were a good Hindu I'd want to look at all the arguments for Hinduism and hopefully I would look at also at the arguments against Hinduism right and I think if you're you know I think God God God loves the Hindus and Christ died for Hindus and every Hindu that goes to heaven is saved by Jesus Christ right and there's no other name under heaven that can save so I'm not worried about the Hindu but I want them to to dig into their faith and to find arguments for and against their faith and it's sort of an in-house project same thing with the Protestant ask you know I like to ask questions about Authority obviously as you know and about Canon of Scripture and these sorts of things but making arguments I don't find that useful in apologetics where you try to change someone's position but just having questions or conditional statements like if this then the implications are that and if yeah if the other then there implications this way and you know food for thought rather than making an argument and the reason one of the reasons I think argumentation is not very productive in apologetics when it comes to changing someone's mind to change camps is that you won't be you won't have converted them from their world view to your world view you will have converted them from their world view to some human reasoning I think st. Paul said something about this in perhaps in the book of Acts or one of his epistles but I don't think about the human reasoning can't save you and only Jesus Christ in save you and it's the power of God and argumentation for that reason I see argumentation as good for you when it comes to testing your faith questioning your faith and not only that but bolstering your faith and building a confidence in the faith if I meet if I meet someone with a different world to you and they're very very confident of their worldview and they're not interested in converting me and they're not you know asking me to convert them then I'm very happy to just admire the confidence that they have to the extent that it's rational self consistent and to explore the common ground and you know it's a different mindset altogether from that sort of polemic mindset and so yeah my my attitude has changed a little bit over the past couple years doing these doing these podcasts and being exposed to so many different people with different worldviews yeah I can imagine because it's not like especially you know in your position and the opportunities that you get to speak with other people it's not like you run into a Hindu every day or what was that lady that you recently had on she was a universalist and near-death experiences yeah yeah yeah it's like whoa I mean I guess maybe without knowing it you do run into people yeah yeah that was wild and some of the some of the things that you said were just like oh yeah okay can say good points there but like it's funny how immediately the first thought is oh I just want this person to be dismantled basically and it's like that's really not a good attitude to have like I had a conversation yesterday one of my Protestant buddies and he was like whoa we were trying he was just asking me like okay so like what what is it that you believe now as an Orthodox and etc etc we started talking about this what about once saved always saved he's a big proponent of eternal security and I was like yeah I don't believe it and I took him to the passages in scripture where it clearly shows that we don't have eternal security just by once at one point in time believing in Jesus and we kept going back and forth and by the end of it I was like dude like you're the one that said you believed in Sola scriptura and I'm showing you these passages in context and you're not listening like you're just you're using your feelings to try and argue your point and by the end of it it was like we didn't come to any agreement like I didn't make him see my side of it he was just obstinately in in this position of like yeah I'm going to stick with my position no matter what and I kind of had to be like okay yeah like that just is what it is like it's only the power of God that's gonna change somebody's mind in a lot of cases and that can beat God I can use it through debate you can use it through conversation you can use it through simple dialogue you can use it through books through the internet through I mean for me for for believing Protestantism with this podcast you know you use you the change my mind them a lot of things and so it's just a matter of as to whether or not we're gonna be honest with ourselves and say yeah maybe I should read some of the positions I'm holding because the first thing that we're tempted to is pride and we have this idea that like while at least I do I know that pre less gets to me a lot where it's like oh I'm worlds above everybody else as far as spirituality goes it's like hearing the fact that you just thought that thought completely self refutes it just totally refutes everything you just said and it's like yeah that's true I'm actually nothing's like legitimately nothing there's nothing there's there's there's basically nothing that I have to offer to anybody else so why I think like oh you know I have all of these answers it's just ridiculous like it's the position that I'm starting to understand that I need to take is one of humility but my my flesh doesn't want to let me do that in a lot of ways because I want to try and think my way out of things I want to try and you know pride my way out of things it's a it's definitely difficult like trying to work past all that into admit like yeah I'm not as great as I actually think I am and I could be wrong about a lot of stuff yeah I think another idea to bear in mind when you're talking with people who have opposing views and especially those who want to force their opposing views down your throat or to prove a point with you the approach that I like to take is one of prayerfulness where you're just you just looking at the salvation history that you're here and now and that this person Christ died for them and they're on a journey there on a faith journey with a lot of twists and turns and they're gonna end up ultimately in heaven or in hell and so any time that you spend in focusing on this human being is a time of prayer for their eternal salvation and of course for your own eternal salvation like they are a means of sanctification for you and you are a means of sanctification for them especially if you're praying for them you know praying for their eternal salvation and not not judging the heart I mean if someone says Kieran I'm a young person and all my friends are doing sex orgies with lots of nasty drugs and making snuff films and seems like a lot of fun should I join in I want say no don't join it but you know we need to have some sort of discretion when it comes to guiding people we have to we have to correct people when they're going astray in a way that is obviously dangerous for them and if we have some sort of relationship with them or we're able to correct them or to guide them that's a necessary component of of your interaction with them but for the most part of here and I don't talk with another adult I think the emphasis really should be prayer and they're in their eternal salvation your eternal salvation and how this moment this particular moment right now is playing out in front of all the angels and saints in heaven that are watching and it's going to be played back right at the general judgement everyone's going to see what your intentions were what your yeah you know were you being manipulative what are you being vain were you being self seeking everyone's gonna see everything so you may as well get in the habit every moment in every interaction I get in the habit of making it a good interaction and a good interaction is a prayerful interaction which is focused on the eternal salvation of yourself and the people that you're interacting with so what do you think of that idea and I think that any any Christian that's seeking after God and truly based their faith seriously would still admit that all of that sounds really nice and it can be wrapped up in a in a pretty little bow but it's so hard to like when you're in the moment dude yeah like you know how many times I have to catch myself and I'm like okay dude bite your tongue like stop and like this stop and I that's one thing that I've loved about my journey into orthodoxy is like I mean I'm always sort of done and held to an examination of conscience but I mean like I don't know if you have you ever tried just like as you go throughout your day writing down sins of omission sins of sins of thoughts sense of word sense of gene as you go throughout your day I did this for like a few days in a row and like usually by the afternoon it was like this is countless like I can't even I can't even look at this but it's like I'm so acutely aware that I'm sinning anymore when and it's and it's things that like you know all the big stuff I mean I come from history of drug abuse and and alcohol addictions and so my past is really shoddy like it's not the best and I think about like you know God delivered me from these huge sins in my life and now that I'm pursuing him it's kind of like when you're a kid and you know like I don't know about you but like when I was five years old spilling a cup of juice was like the equivalent of not being able to pay my mortgage today it was like just astronomically huge like oh my gosh dude trouble this is the most serious thing that's ever happened to me I'm literally going to die if I don't fix this I I don't I don't want my mom to see this and sin is kind of the same thing where it's like looking at it and trying to balance like God is completely full but it's a it's a good thing that now I'm starting to see some of these sins I didn't care about before like whether it's whether it's talking you know behind somebody's back some gossip or whether it's losing my temper and small things just losing my patience or maybe thinking I thought that is is less than admirable from a Christian standpoint it's like before these things wouldn't have really bothered me but you know it's like yeah I need to start working on these things because they are serious like these are actual things and this it all centers around pride and a lot of it does and so interactions with people my biggest temptation is to be right is to be correct and so making that into a prayerful dialogue is something that in retrospect looking back to a conversation I can sort of say like yeah I hope some good came from that god please use that for good but in the moment it's sort of like that you're wrong so like here's why you're wrong and so it's it's an ideal and treating conversation that way I think is you know especially adult to adult having that prayerful sort of dialogue it's something that's really important but I think as most Christians would admit unless you're a saint it's easier said than done for sure sure so what else do you want to touch on before I let you go because I do have another interview I need to prepare for is there any other topic that's been burning on your mind with respect to orthodoxy or Catholicism or differences that still exist between you and your brother and your father in terms of theology that you think feature I can email you about but yeah I mean the one thing that I will say is that there's been some interaction between myself and that Lord Mozart character we had were his real name is really nice guy yeah I wanted to formally extend the offer to him we are and and you me and Aiden have spoken to you about this before for people that are listening that don't know Aidan's my brother and we're doing the novenas like we've just been doing that continuously for a few months now and then just picking an attention after nine days and a lot of people saying like oh we're like they're bringing a fool you know five decades a day of the Rosary but we're not we're just doing one Hail Mary and prayer the st. Joseph's terror of demons and so the next round is gonna be for Lord Mozart for his transition into Catholicism finding the truth and etc etc Thanks but I did I did extend the invitation that if he wants to get in on that action that he should definitely do that because dude it's already my mom I think I told you maybe the last time we spoke I don't know but uh it was sort of off the record that we were praying for my mom and she she yeah she contacted me and was like hey I want to go to church with you and Title II hasn't thought about Church in years and years and I'm fully convinced that it's and it's definitely Theotokos definitely this day is focused but I think that st. Joseph's is really just like working on some generational and family family you know tree demons in our in our tool is new family we have a laundry list of you know the same kinds of sins throughout the Lizzie history yeah and I think he's starting to work on those and break down barriers and stuff and it was just amazing that my mom call didn't want it to be uh wanted to come up to my church that she did that and she said cool I'm gonna come back which I was really I was really surprised that yeah so like yeah I mean it's really powerful so I think that we all need to get behind prayer but it'd be really cool if we could get like a whole group of men women who ever people that are interested on having an active prayer life I don't know I know if I know how hard it is from experience to establish a prayer rule but once you get your prayer rule going once you had your daily you know your daily practice the main thing is to keep it as consistent as possible yeah so if you're gonna set aside your time in the morning whether it's 20 minutes whether that's 15 minutes maybe 10 minutes that night just make sure that you don't miss it no matter what and the consistency is what counts and finding that more and more like if I miss you know one session of prayer or whatever it might be it's like you can definitely feel the difference and so anybody listening that that is that is interested in getting in on that action and maybe need some guidance in that area get a spiritual father and they can help you better like it but at the same time there is stuff that you can do from a lay perspective that if we if we unite in prayer it really really helps especially to the last thing I'll say is that we might have these doctrinal differences or whatever my brother and I are a perfect attestation to that fact that he's Catholic I'm Orthodox but we do community gather in prayer and that keeps the true spirit of a human is alive as opposed to this faucet we don't deny that we have differences we don't deny that we belong to separate canonical churches that's not that's not the point the point is is that we still want to commune together in some way and this is the way that we're told to do that so yeah that's it amazing well the last thing you're gonna say is you're gonna talk a little bit about your your own podcast you guys yeah just just talk us through what we can expect when we can expect it and what sort of content you're gonna have and how you and your brother are gonna play different roles or you're going to play the same role in the podcast just talk a little bit about it please it's gonna be called ascending the ladder from east and west and essentially it's playing off what I was just speaking about communion together between the Orthodox and and Catholicism but more than that I think gaining Christian traditions and we're going to emphasize the importance of extra biblical reading because a lot of a lot of Protestants don't like extra biblical reading but as Catholics and Orthodox absolutely love it and it's important and it's good I know that your mentoring into the Philip Kalia yeah I started reading that a little bit but I'm sticking with st. Anthony Chaisson the Incarnation reading ladder of divine ascent by it's by st. John clematis and so we're the idea is we're gonna pick it's gonna be kind of like a study group we're gonna have we're gonna pick one one book one spiritual book by a father of the church and we're going to go through it semi meticulously and we'll pick a new book for each series in the podcast as a whole so the first series that we're going to be doing is on st. john climacus --is ladder of divine ascent and we're gonna go it has 30 steps in it so what could be the equivalent 30 chapters all in all releasing a podcast I think on I think we agreed on a bi-weekly basis right now would take about eight months and the first podcast is gonna be we did a couple trial runs like I was telling you before we went live and got some good cakes but work we're gonna rerecord the intro episode Aiden's finishing up some schooling and then he's gonna start reading the ladder divine essence-- so as he's reading it we plan to start going through it and so we'll have the first introductory episode recorded by this weekend and I'm hope with next like two weeks or so once I get the RSS feed going and all that squared away everything edited I would hope within the next two weeks or so we would have the first episode posted but I also don't want to post an episode and wait another month or so until Aiden can start reading the book before we release it so that'll all be hammered away but you know I'll keep y'all fresh on the updates noms they answer yeah we'll put a link in the description once you have the link and we'll definitely I mean I will definitely be looking forward to that and I look forward to it I'm going to read that book too I bought the book because of you the latter of ascent and what which century did he write that book so st. john climacus was i believe in the fifth century he was around the I believe he was the fifth or fourth century yeah very very early on but basically john climacus was essentially a hermit living in the caves in the desert and so after after years and years and years solitude and extreme asceticism people started catching wind about him and so he was he was commissioned by I don't know if it was a Metropolitan from his area yeah I think metropolitan Metropolitan Phil arete I think that he commissioned that the that st. John would write this as like an instruction manual for ascetics and so he took it to upon himself to write that yeah and so the details of that that could be fuzzy it's been a little while since I've read the introduction and all that kind of stuff but basically the really revered father that churches looked at sort of along the lines of st. Anthony the great who's kind of like the pioneer of the desert monasticism and monasticism as a whole because this all kind of corresponds with the Edict of Milan and the legalization of Christianity and of course with that the end of martyrdom and so people were looking for a way to continue on because they were seeing that Christianity was becoming this super nominal thing and so st. john climacus st. anthony saint moses the black like all these guys are pioneers of the the ascetic life and where we get all different forms of monasticism from so this book is kind of it's kind of similar to the imitation of Christ for the Catholic lay person that knows what that is which is also fantastic it's kind of like that only it's much earlier and it's a it's a different foot yeah I'm reading st. Maximus the Confessor is that are you saying he's uh he's a little bit of a departure from the other writings in the Phil Oakey Lea so far he's going more philosophical more into depth about theology and yet which century did he live do you know he was I think in the heat but were the ninth century he had a he had a participation I believe in the seventh ecumenical council if I'm if I'm not mistaken now don't anybody quote me on that cuz I'm not a church historian but if I remember correctly its its eighth through ninth century that Maximus the Confessor lived so i because i if i'm not mistaken he's actually he actually is venerate the west and so if that's the case it's a great indication that it was pretty schism but off the off the top of my head I'm pretty sure it's eight or nine if I'm mistaken on that I'll write it in the comments or mean I'm excited about it but it's a so um this is about you but I wanted to get your feedback on our friend Matthew Murdock what do you think is happening how is his voyage going I don't say too much because we're alive I can't edit but he's a dear friend and he's he's still a Christian but he's exploring a lot of avenues you know pertaining to annihilationism has some doubts has some doubts about some pretty fundamental doctrines of Christianity such as the Trinity Eve and that's being called into doubt somewhat he's open to the idea that God's not a Trinity so what are your impressions of his journey it's been a long and a very long and complicated journey for our dear friend what do you think where do you think he's at today well I just spoke with him last Sunday my son and I were on the way to the grocery store I was like dude I got to call that man in talk to him because I watched his livestream the day before and I was like I was kind of bummed out because I came in on the portion where he was speaking about the Trinity and you guys were talking about the essentialism of specific doctrine you know like what constitutes a quote unquote saves person if you want to use the term saved which I don't I'm just kidding but uh Matthew is like that's a good dude I love Matt and he's so he's so genuine and he just wants to know it's true just like we all do but there is it's weird because he was on such a spiritual high from his retreat and it was really cool to hear him like that like calling him while I was on a jobsite and talking to him the one day and I was like dude it sounds like a totally different person and so to see like kind of coming back and in questioning things like it's okay to question but I just want Matt to get out of his head for a little bit he has the Kiran syndrome you know he has this syndrome where it's like I need the answers and I need them now and if I can't get them then all is lost and I'm just gonna basically dig myself into a hole and die and that's like dude it's it's difficult it's really difficult I I do worry about some of the some of the positions that he could potentially wander off into especially when it comes to annihilationism or obviously more importantly the Trinity and the Trinity is the basis of of the faith I mean I I think the one thing that I would say to Matthew if he's listening which at some point I know he's going to be because he's a CBS junkie is that dude if if the Trinity is not in the same way that it's already stated true three persons one being and God is love as Saint John says I mean love is not just like it's not just a flat attribute of somebody there has to be an object of that love in order for it to be true and so if you're being tempted into some sort of modalism or some form of Arianism or whatever the case might be who was it that God loved before the foundations of the world and I think that a lot of people don't think about that maybe that's not as strong as a point as I think that it is but to be honest like it it is kind of a strong point god did God just love the one person in the one being or did he love if he loved the others in the triune Godhead that he loved the Holy Spirit that he loved Christ the son from all eternity to Eternity and like that's a question that's not really ever answered by people that don't believe in the Trinity because there's not really a good answer for it if God just loved himself in the way that you or I love ourselves well that sounds that there's not really a whole lot to that that's kind of easy to do but loving loving the other persons of the Holy Trinity is something that I think has immense significance and if God is love then an object of his love has to be there and I posit that it's the three persons of the Trinity and so and and he he was a it's not even not even two months ago with that other Protestant fella that you had on that like celebrating Jewish holidays and all that kind of stuff forget his name Jeremy Jeremy yet yeah I mean he's a he's a modal list though he doesn't like to admit it he's dead his position is modalism and it's been condemned for 1500 years and so Matthew at that point was like man that's really sad that he would go into modalism so it's just kind of like oh gosh that sucks because now Matthews kind of in the same boat mm-hmm and uh breaks my heart but you know yeah I'm a little bit I'm a little bit disappointed too but you have to it's like having a child you have to let the child play and if Ric is you know scratches knee and all that I've never had a child that I know of so I can't really relate to parenting but you know when you love someone you want them to to be okay and the feeling that I get as a Christian is that I have a loving father in heaven I have a loving mother the mother the mother of God Mary yeah I have my mother the church I have my brothers and sisters the Saints and there's zero anxiety about doctrine with me if I don't know if I don't know the answer I have zero anxiety I think to myself well my loving mother has the answer I don't need to worry about it you know if I want to look it up I know where to look up the answers what does Mother Church teach what is she always taught and what sort of wait does that particular teaching have if it has a lot of weight then I give it a lot of weight if it doesn't have a lot of weight I don't need to give it a lot of weight you know and so yeah it's there's no anxiety for me to know everything about Catholicism I never I never said to myself I if I'm gonna be a Catholic I have to know know and understand and memorize every answer every question I just thought I have I have a father in heaven I have a mother I have brothers and sisters and it's I'm within the safety of the arc and I'm on my way to heaven I'm I'm a fallible sinner and my energy should go into you know saying yes saying yes to grace and no to sin that's where I focus all my energy it's not about doctrine for me it really isn't and people might be surprised to hear me say that because I spend a lot of time talking about doctrine and when I talk to non Catholics I tend to you know sort of contrast their doctrine with my doctrine but it's it's only with a view to getting them into the safety of the Ark so they can relax kick their feet up on the table like I am and enjoy being loved loved by God the Father being having the comfort of Mother Church having the comfort of all the saints and all the beautiful writings and teachings but yeah it's really not about a doctrine frame but with Matthew I feel don't feel like I'm picking on you or whatever I know you're you're such a good sport and I love you and I wish you lived close to me so that we could hang out because we'd probably do metal heads and play like super crazy music together and talk about God all day which would be awesome but like I just want you to think about not only what David just said as as far as not getting so hung up on the minutia of theological points and doctrine and and all that kind of stuff and just sort of giving it up to to the heavenly host unto God but this take the understanding that the East has of what it means to be a true theologian you know there have been absolute morons according to the world's definition of what is of what it is to be intelligent that are considered true theologians of the Orthodox Church because to be a theologian it's not just what you definitionally know about God but it is what you know God to be it is how you know God it is what you experience from God and so there is unfortunately a level of subjectivism with it from I guess a purely philosophical standpoint but dude it's either I mean you have to admit like there's there's there's a form of of cyclical thinking and reasoning to every worldview and so if you get hung up on the fact that these sorts of problems are cyclical in nature you're just gonna drive yourself mad because of course they are but every every single worldview is cyclical yes or not there I mean eventually you have to appeal to Authority that's not something that you can comprehend with your five senses like it just it just doesn't work like that Nathan you can't name one single person that can prove anything from their worldview that's not cyclical in reasoning for a thought and so we don't need to be ashamed as Christians to say that yes we do unfortunately have to admit a level of that sounds kind of contradictory not that we unfortunately have to admit but we do have to admit that we do have a level of cyclical thinking that we have to appeal to in order to believe the things that we believe but guess what so does the the the person believing in scientism so does the atheist so there's the Buddhists so there's the Hindu so does the nyla so there's the materialist I mean it on and on and on and on and on so you need to get into prayer like just to beyond you get into prayer and when I was talking earlier about prayer wool and really really just placing yourself under the mantle of the mother of God that's that's what has to be done and if you're not comfortable with doing that with the Theotokos then just do it with Christ this is st. Pius II o said he is a great saying that the of the Orthodox Church he was a monk on Mount Athos and he died in the 94 he was recently canonized I think back in 2015 or something like that and when he was a little boy and he would he was aspiring to become a monk and one of his brothers who was envious of him because he was sort of like the golden child about one of his friends who believed in Darwinian evolution it convinced him that Darwinism is true and this greatly disturbed this 11 year old st. and so he ran off into the woods into a stay bird spot to pray and so he prayed and prayed for hours upon hours prostrating himself before God and saying please if this is true if Darwinian evolution is true like give me a sign if you are actually the son of God Jesus please sign and for hours and hours nothing happened and so we fell down exhausted and he finally said to himself you know even if you are only a man even if you aren't actually God in the flesh I still I'm going to follow you I still I'm going to give my life to you because you are what you are a remarkable man and from that moment minute that he gave that up Christ appeared to it and let him know that he was actually who he said he was that he was God in the flesh and from then on out from that crisis of faith that's very saintly man he went on to do the most miraculous things in the Orthodox Church and so many miracles and blessings came from this man and this was a man that even he as a devout Christian at such young age had questions and was really perplexed by this existential crisis and when he gave it up to God his prayers were answered and I feel like Matthew you had a taste of that when you went on your retreat and then you started it got bogged down again I think he maybe jumped back into the minutiae of theology and what's true and what's not true maybe a little bit too soon but I could be wrong about all that but that's just like that's just 90 cents yeah well it's good advice what comes to mind obviously for me I'll always with religion is romance and marriage and we don't I could not answer many questions about the quantitative aspects of my wife her exact height her exact weight or how many had how many hairs on her head and the dimensions of her different organs and stuff like that but I'm not that interested I'd rather just sit next to her looking look at her beautiful face look into her eyes and serve her you know like I mean I know what pleases her I know what doesn't please her I know what foods she likes I know what foods she doesn't like I know what what temperature she wants the room to be at I know how she wants things arranged so that she's comfortable so she's happy I know I know how to please this woman because that's what I care about I don't know a lot of scientific facts about her because I don't care about those I want to know I want to know her and love her and serve her in a way that is relational in a way that is romantic and in a way and it is a mutual self giving and so it's the same thing with God thought it's not going to be impressed if you have memorized a bunch of technical theological fact factoids yet many of them many of those will be wrong anyway when we're we have to expect the unexpected with God just like I have to expect the unexpected with my wife that's part of the that's part of the charm of a human being that's why these people that want to marry their life like sex dolls and there are speed there are people that are doing t

CVS Live Guest - 2020-02-15 - Philip Duncalfe

so we're back we're live I'm here with Philip Duncalf Philip nice to see you say hello hi nice to see you yeah well you can't actually see me but I see see no but nice to hear you you can see me if you play back the live stream but yeah my Oh as we were talking before the before the live stream have some technical issues I got some issues with my audio because of a Windows Update and you had some issues with hangouts and Facebook video call and finally we got it working on skype so why don't you just start by telling us a little bit about yourself because I don't know you from Adam who are you what do you believe and how did you come to believe in all that sort of good stuff yeah good question so I'm Phil I what I do so I work for a Christian organization evangelical organization that reaches out to international students on University campuses here in the UK let's go back a bit I'm the son of a missionary family my parents worked out in Papua New Guinea so I grew up there for 11 years so growing up in a Christian family Christian faith just to clarify this Protestant Christianity and went to university kind of didn't for a couple years probably had a bit of her I thought that I'd lost my faith but just kind of had to figure it out for myself for as relevant and some of the usual things with that you do in University until you realize that it's probably not the best life to leave and then I had a mate who or I have a mate who was a fairly new Christian at the time read a lot very much into apologetics I'm just really challenged me on my own faith I've grown up in here and despite being a new Christian and that really challenged me to just start reading to start figure out whether my faith was relevant to to everyday life turns out it is I do computer science engineering at university I then went into teaching in secondary schools for about eight years and then for a variety reasons I left teaching about getting on for two years ago now with two years actually there's probably 18 months so I I helped lead a local church in Guildford in in the UK there's southeast of London that was going through a fairly busy leadership transition at the time my daughter was diagnosed to the rare genetic condition at the time and teaching in general was pretty heavy so those three combined led me into a bit of a pit I wouldn't say faith wise or anything just more health family life balance wise which led me to question which things I could drop it turns out you can drop teaching and I resigned from teaching and two days later found the jobs that are currently worked for which was a really neat transition and very much confirmation that I was making the right choice and so now I work with international students meet loads of people from loads of different cultures and backgrounds and faiths help them settle into the UK which is kind of reflecting on it what I had to do when I came back to the UK for university I had to sort of learn to be British which is kind of interesting yes that's pretty much my story I helped lead a local church which is part of a non-denominational denomination and yeah that's that's pretty much my story at the moment I'm um I'm married and I have a kid is your wife on the same page in terms of the form of Christianity that you adhere to yeah yeah very much so so we actually met at university we were going to do different churches I was going to a Baptist Church at the time she was going to the church that we currently now go to and we decided after shrinking out we wanted to wash it together we chose to be in this this church I don't know if you have it in Canada is it's called new frontiers it's sort of house church movement in the 70s and then they have kind of become their own denomination I guess so yeah what about what's the connection with Chris date because I know that I interviewed him a while ago and I just recently published it and somehow I got in touch with you on Facebook I believe do you remember what the connection is there yes same guy that led me to figure out my faith and get into apologetics and things of that he had a book on his bookcase which was called rethinking hell and I said are you becoming a heretic and used the usual banter and rethinking how it was by Chris date my mate added me to the rethinking hell Facebook group and yeah really just over a course of three or four years I've interacted with Chris multiple times on Facebook I've had him on my youtube channel talking about Revelation and just over three or four years of I found that I've become convinced of the condition listview of help that he would hold as well and so yeah just interacted with him through online never met face to face but enjoy being able to discuss theology with him and probably agree with quite a few not all Minds not obvious that he has but with with regards to conditional ISM yeah we agree there do you agree with him that there's no immaterial soul no I say I listen to that that's one one place that we we differ I'd say it's one part wrestled with I think there are a lot of conditions that aren't dualists and I wrote a and essays part of my kind of processing this whole thing over an essay was can be found through through my website on how I've kind of contained it to one place on the Internet I do have other theological interests aside from help but this was more with me just processing my thoughts on the subject and it's kind of become a bit of a project and yeah so I've kind of processed the physicalism side because that's who I was reading when I was processing what I thought the Bible said and yeah on that on that front I'm quite happy to be a duelist i think there's i yeah i think when you unpick one tradition or one quite strong tradition the temptation is or at least the wrestling of other doctrines comes alongside that but i'm quite settled that there's a good case for dualism and yes or not on that side of things are probably disagree okay why is it important to acknowledge the truth of traditional immortality if it is true why is it important what are the top three reasons why it's important i can't think of any good reasons why just give me a couple yeah so it's something i've been reflecting on because I do I do believe my YouTube kind of might well have a shelf life in what I'm doing I don't want to be the guy that talks about how all the time but I found it quite liberating I I've come to conditioning because I see it in the text of Scripture and so as I've grown up Protestant I've see growing up Sola scriptura I think that has its own trouble sometimes I think I've really enjoyed some of the interactions I've seen on YouTube between Protestants and Catholics and just just hearing where the way of tradition is is quite interesting I think all Christians need some form of accountability and I guess my tradition at the moment is quite young in the sense of the group of churches that are belong to but even my church stream the majority of people would hold to the traditional view of eternal conscious torment so why why is it important which is is your question I think I've just found a collaborative liberating and that comes through a few things it come is liberating from from how I read scripture I I found that the most ardent defenders of eternal conscious torment do so at least on the Protestant argument I'm very aware there's a traditional argument with with the Catholic perspective but as I've engaged mostly with Protestants the most ardent defenders used three verses they use Matthew 25 the eternal fire eternal punishment versus eternal life and they use Revelation 20 and 14 and then they base everything out else through those filters and are not held to that view for a while but reading Scripture I see verses like to Peter 4:6 and Jude 7 where they use the examples of Old Testament destruction narratives like Sodom and Gomorrah and I say this is an example of what will happen to the ungodly I would never have heard I don't think I'd heard anyone separate out the difference between Gehenna and Hades before and the direct connections of mark 9 with ice I 6624 so mark 9 Jesus what financial is in Jesus uses the term Gehenna which comes from Jeremiah and the valley of slaughter which Jeremiah prophesized but to clarify Gehenna Mark quotes Jesus is using a reference from Isaiah 66 24 so you've got like this little triangle of a New Testament referencing Jeremiah's value of slaughter and Isaiah's vision of dead corpses as idea of where people will end up if they don't follow Christ so well is on the fence with this position and anyone listening to this vision anyone when I went I've done seminars anyone hopefully listening to me it's very much been a journey I don't want anyone to like just follow me because it's easy because it's emotionally easy I don't think that's a good argument at all but I wrestle with Scripture and and this is where I come to and I've found over and over again when traditionalists argue about how if they use the biblical language they sound like conditiona so if you talk about Romans where it says the wages of sin is death the end of being a slave to sin is death if you use Hebrews where God is a consuming fire if you use any of the Old Testament judgment passages like the rebellion of Korah or even though the punishment has always been death and so we look to Genesis even Genesis is the less they're taking away from the garden less they reach out their hand and live forever so there's all this language that shows the punishment of sin the wages of sin is death and the punishment will be death and and so even if I wasn't a condition astern I'm just utilizing the language of the Bible when I preach I sound like a condition list unless I have to preach on revelation 14:11 or revelation 20:10 so for me is liberated how I read the BIOS it helped me make connections through really difficult texts I mean the sodom and gomorrah narrative is quite a hard text apologetically speaking but if you see a God who is life and the result of rebellion against him is death it becomes a little bit more clear in my mind and so I found the old that's liberated the Old Testament for me so that that's one view one reason it's important I've started to connect the dots between the Old Testament and the new in a way that I've never done before and then another aspect I mean I've gone through a bit of a journey through trying to wrestle with the problem of pain in my own life processing stuff with my daughter and so I'm very aware there are some emotional connections that I might not have been aware of at the start of this process but I find a victory the the the new creation story when we've got revelation 20:1 promising this hope of a place of no more pain death or mourning or grief and me to have a realm where there's ongoing weeping wailing and gnashing of teeth that seems absolutely contradictory to to what eyes are twenty five in Revelation 21 are promising so for the second part of why it's important I think we as Christians need to have a very clear hope for what or understanding of what the hope is that we have and for me the hope it is that we have the hope in Christ's resurrection so we have the past hope we have the current hope which is a glimpse of the kingdom in the church whatever that might look like I mean I'm happy to flesh that out a little bit more and then the future hope of the new creation and and the reasons for that are all tied together so Christ died and it's through his death that we have his righteousness and we can enter into the new creation through him and have and a conditional ISM for me makes the most sense of the language that is utilized there that's kind of how how I've come to picture it and why I think it's important I know so many Christians who just don't look into this doctrine at all at all and I know so many Christians who had answered this badly and so far if I'm in a sort of environment where there's non-christians I haven't had too much option opportunity to do this in the moment but I'd be inclined to present two views kind of like what we do with Calvinism Mormonism or what we do with evolution and creation I'd be like look there's this internal debate here's the language you kind of make your decision that's kind of where I'm going with my YouTube channel is more just to show that this is a this is a secondary issue in my opinion I mean it could happen to disagree on that I don't think anyone should have to fear an eternal torment I don't think that's what I see in Scripture and I know a lot of people that have a really incorrect picture of what people mean when they say eternal torment and they pictured Dante's Inferno and all the all sorts of mess but yeah that's kind of why she is important is a clarity on Scripture really a clarity on what the Bible actually says rather than what we think it might say you know the question of authority is never far away when when I speak with a non-catholic Christians and so I have I have a dogma of the church that tells me that hell is eternal and the suffering is is never-ending and so that's all I need I don't need I don't need the Bible to lean on right and I don't I don't lean on my own understanding or my own private judgment of the Scriptures I'm free I have I have a lot of freedom in the church to explore the meaning the different layers of meaning in this holy scriptures and in tradition but there are limits put on that by the dogmas and the doctrines and even by the disability disciplines frankly I mean the non fallible fallible teachings of the church put limits practical limits on how far I can explore because I'm a child of the church today and the church today has a living Magisterium that is guiding me and giving me teachings and placing emphasis on certain teachings and less emphasis on other teachings and certainly the doctrine of hell is not being emphasized in the church today the Living Magisterium is not dealing with it because it's already been settled it's a settled matter we have the document the dogma firmly defined and so on and so forth so the question of authority really comes to the fore when I speak to any non Catholic Christian and it's I just wonder where where this church is that Christ built where do you think it is and has that church been given the charism of infallibility so that it cannot teach error concerning faith and morals or is it allowed to err and we're left with a sort of heard agnosticism where we can never really know what God wants us to know for our eternal salvation this is the underlying question of authority for me what do you say yes it is a bit it is a big question one I think Protestants need to wrestle with massively I think there are a lot of debates across denominations that are necessary shouldn't be as significant as they are and just as a little bit of what was going through my mind as you're saying that is I think there have been historical situations where the church has erred even as a Catholic Church and has needed Reformation throughout well with it within the council's that it's had my knowledge of those councils and the Reformation I'm still learning on those I mean I'm that I find interesting in my own sort of reflection of my story is the the thing I'm kind of jealous of a lot of Catholics is that they such a knowledge of the tradition of their church or at least people that engage in theology seem to and I'm I'm playing catch-up I've had a lifetime of delving into the 66 books of the Protestant Bible but I haven't got a knowledge of the tradition that covers the 2,000 years span since since Christ so I'm playing catch-up on that but I am also aware that yeah the church does have its forms of Correction where that authority lies for me I think all churches need their right there they're lines of Correction I guess it depends on where you define your these are the core doctrinal statements and for my church from where I am currently on this issue why I'm happy to be in the tradition called it a tradition have I only like were we 40 years old happy to be in the house judgment is we rely on act very we want to be the kind of church you see in the New Testament that lives in it in the community that serves the poor that teachers from Scripture that wrestles with these kind of issues and but ultimately teachers and preachers Christ crucified part of the reason that I joined the church that I did was I I do feel God has given me a gift of teaching I thought that was in secondary education for a little while but I think it's also in terms of digging into Scripture and sharing that with others and this house church movement means that I don't have to spend huge amounts of my life qualifying in that which I think has its own dangers I'm happy to admit that but yeah step into gifts that maybe other church structures who have hindered in some ways so the authority I have I rely I do rely on Scripture but I also rely on the faithful people Christians who love Jesus around me to correct me to bring guidance to challenge me and I rely on that to make sure I'm not going down rabbit holes of doctrine that I shouldn't so my authority my authorities scripture I would say the Holy Spirit I would say other Christians around me the church being the family of people that Christians that I am amongst and yes yeah this is so do you see it like the Holy Spirit is guiding the the church meaning that those who are members of the mystical body of Christ in a sort of anonymous or invisible way that anyone that's striving to follow Christ and accepts the Holy Scriptures do you think the Holy Spirit is guiding them on the essential saving truth so if we were to take everyone that's a self professed Christian worldwide throughout history since the time of Christ and we were to draw a Venn diagram of all their beliefs and that one little tiny spot where they all overlap that is what the Holy Spirit has protected do you think that the Holy Spirit has protected more than that because I I happen to believe that the Holy Spirit has protected more than that one tiny spot that's completely overlapped by everyone who claim to be a Christian since Christ lived for example the doctrine of hell is well established the doctrine the Trinity is well established we've got Christians who died today who deny the Trinity the purgatory is a dogma it's well established you know their Marian there's Mary Mary illogical dogmas that have been defined for of them these are well defined and they're well established and they're very few Christians outside of Catholicism who accept all of the dogmas that I accept and that I believe have been established by Christ Church by the church that Christ built they be established documented I can send you the link to the website where you can find the documents that define them and so it's it's quite a contrast between my worldview and yours when it comes to the essential saving truths and how the Holy Spirit Guides the church into all truth it's a very very different picture what it what's your perspective on that yes I just noticed there's a question on the live stream where the elders of his church where I am one of the elders there's that but yes sorry that's just me I'm on the distraction so yeah there's quite a lot in there too to hack I'm trying to gauge so that I was a little bit lost in the picture you gave advice yes sir what do you mean by the single point of overlap and you and I are Christians right yeah okay so let's look at the set of beliefs that you think are essential for salvation and the set of believes that I think are essential for salvation or essential to be a Christian and then those things that where we differ are outside of the overlapping area but that overlapping area like you believe in God the Father you believe in the Trinity you believe in the Incarnation there's a whole bunch of stuff that we have that we believe in common so yeah the more Christians we add those who profess themselves to be Christians the more Christians we add the smaller that overlap is going to become because someone someone's gonna come into the group in our Venn diagram if we add that third circle ideally they believe the Sabbath is on Saturday right do you believe the Sabbath on Saturday or on Sunday I mean the sign of the Jewish side yeah Jewish Sabbath is on Saturday but the the Lord's Day is to be celebrated and to be kept holy now that that's the dogma of the church we have to keep the eighth day of the week holy right and we no longer keep the Sabbath on Saturday so there are some seventh-day Adventists and different people who cling to a different teaching but so there if we just introduce one more person suddenly that overlap in our Venn diagram is getting show chipped away so if we added every everyone who claim to be Christian from the beginning of Christianity till now we're gonna be left with very very very very few doctrines that are essential and is it the holy spirit that is protecting just that tiny little overlap or is he or is it more likely that Christ built a church that that has the power and the authority to guard the sacred deposit of faith and to interpret the sacred deposit of faith and to unpack the sacred deposit of faith so we can draw out the implications of logical implications of that sacred deposit of faith and constantly and organically be growing this documentation we have of the established saving truths which picture seems more likely when you think about the Holy Spirit guiding and protecting the church yeah question I think in terms of protecting the church I think I've not really thought of it like that in in that sense so I don't really have have an answer to you I think in terms of core doctrines from what I see in in Scripture I yeah that the the ones that we would hold to are saving profession of faith in Jesus knowledge meant of his deity acknowledgement that and I'm probably going to miss a few but an acknowledgement of the Trinity and the the three persons in one one God head is baptism essential for Salvage is bout is essential I don't believe it is but I profession of faith in Jesus I would be no it is a difficult art and it's not like a difficult question I don't think it is a Salvation issue my question to a believer who says they haven't been baptized is why not and that should be your confession of faith really to an outside world so I would challenge people would challenge Christians that haven't been baptized to be baptized because that is what Jesus commanded us yeah I guess I'm a little less hard and fast on that on what makes a Salvation issue because I look at Salvation as I'm wary of making it a moment I'm it's a something that you you work out with fear and trembling at least on our perspective it may well be a moment to God and the person and their conscience but from the outside you're looking for a change you're looking for the fruit of the Spirit you're looking for the God to be working within them and yeah that's this kind of where we're all Matt can you take just a quick glance at a live chat and just address some other some which now saves you whereas that where is that referencing yeah so it's ours were saved by means of water which corresponds to baptism which now saves yeah I didn't say that as rude either a vote Christus Rex all right so yeah I'm happy to address the the requirement of eldership in my churches or I think he's referring to 1 1 Peter 3 in 1920 now you yeah Afghani one piece should have got my Bible finally I'm gonna be a bit well with you you want where did you say one Peters so I'm looking at the Reno anyone 321 there we go 321 symbolizes baptism now saves you also not the removal of dirt from the body with a pledge of a clear conscience towards God it saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ has gone into heaven and his echoes where I have angels authorities and powers and submission to him yeah I put weight on baptism and it does yeah profess to save from them from the face of it I I'm happy I'm happy with baptism I can't hurry up June so yeah okay I'm happy with baptism being it's the natural state of a person coming to know Jesus in the salvation journey yeah I put weight on it I guess just as a reason I'm not hard and fast on a Salvation issue is in the rarity someone professes faith in Christ like the thief on the cross and wasn't able to get down from the cross to be baptized so that would be my my response on that is what yeah what would be necessary for a thief and a cross to make a salvation itself ethic profession of faith that saves him yeah yeah that's so maybe maybe to take the pressure off a little bit you can ask me about my faith because I feel like I feel like I'm putting pressure on you and the people in the live chatting a little bit pressure but if you had any questions about why we believe what we believe or questions about authority questions about the Canon of Scripture questions about apostolic succession questions about Mary questions about hope yeah it might be it might be a good opportunity for you to dig a little bit deeper if you have questions if you I mean I don't want you to ask for the sake of asking but if you've ever if you've ever found yourself pondering these some of these questions now would be a good time and it might take make it a little bit more friendly box I don't wanna just be bludgeoning you with it's absolutely absolutely fine I kind of I'm quite happy to take the questions it's quite interesting the kind of questions that come up is in terms of why I guess one of the questions that I'd really love to dig into a little bit so you've got the X the extra book so I guess you don't see them as extra books but you have yeah like Judith and things that as I said I'm still catching up on the books outside of the sixty-six and some some regards it's not stuff that I've grown up with so I what is your defense of those books to a Protestant what why do you accept them as as canon and I know I could probably look this up I'll be interested in in you're yourself go-to response yeah it's just true it's just the tradition of the church I mean the church the church had a bunch of readings it had to consider as candidates and the church used tradition to judge those writings and to say which ones were in which ones were out and then over the course of decades and centuries gave the stamp of approval only formally and universally putting a stamp of approval on it the council of trent right but there were regional councils that did put the stamp of authority with the local bishops of those councils and so it's it's a long tradition going all the way back to the Septuagint translation into Greek of the Hebrew Scriptures and there are many many different collections of Hebrew Scriptures Hebrew writings but it was there many legends also in in the Catholic Church about this a to urgent how it came about with the holy men off in their own private quarters translating and they all came back together all 72 or 73 with him came back together with the same the same translation word by word I we're not obliged to believe that legend but it paints a nice picture of the sort of mystical the guiding hand of the Holy Spirit and with the subdue agent but like I said you don't to believe that literally but the idea is that the sub to agent was given the weight of tradition and it's a long-standing tradition and it got the stamp of approval time and time again and then formally and finally and universally at the Council of Trent so everything that I believe I believe because of the Holy Roman Catholic Church on the authority of the Holy Roman Catholic Church it has nothing to do with how I personally interpret Scripture never yeah yes there's there's never a time where I I asked myself Oh what is the teaching what is the teaching on this or that and I look it up in the Bible I always go to the church and the church points me to the relevant scriptures and the relevant tradition because secret the sacred deposit of faith contains tradition and the scriptures from my Catholic perspective so that's basically gonna that's basically going to be the template from my answer to every question yeah I get that yeah and yes I'm happy to to wrestle with Scripture and I love that for my own faith my faith is only deepened when I've wrestled the scripture and worked even just finding themes and how the Bible knits together and one of the things for me as I've been looking at this doctrine I've engaged it a little bit with this or Catholic works and you've got passages and Judith that seem to add - Isaiah's vision so where Isaiah's looking at corpses Jesus starts talking about these corpses being reanimated and and though and then Jesus doesn't talk anything about reanimation but directly quotes Isaiah so I wrestle and a little continue to wrestle with the the idea that they are they fit within the threads of of what you find the themes through Genesis to Revelation but that's something I think that the Holies the host communicates through his word to us and yes the church should be a structure that guides us and corrects us I so I agree with with that view of things that the church around the believers should be the guiding Authority which is where our eye is and the elder take this extremely seriously because of the the weight Jesus puts on teachers that misguide people through Scripture I'd rather not jump in a lake but I also want to encourage people to engage in Scripture themselves so they can check the authority otherwise I'm just some guy at the front of a church occasionally that speaks and so yeah that's so the the authority that I have comes from the Word of God and I rely solely on that and the correction comes both from the people in my the eldership team so I'm not the lead pastor or lead elder and then we have authority outside of us that is more relational than hierarchical so we ascribe to a sort of family of churches be we we do I guess have a apostolic kind of structure that we relationally have them oversee us and if we have issues within our church we go to and I would encourage anyone going into any church to have some form of structure you if you are going to a truly independent church there's just on their own what is their guidance where where are they taking you so there is a form of Church authority and apostolic authority that I subscribe to but through that it's very much a I I check what I'm being told by the apostolic authority against Scripture man it's a continual back and forth I guess in and dialogue with each other and prayerfulness and where we over issues we will pray about it and we will discuss it and we'll dig further into the word and we'll look at tradition of other churches but ultimately we we want to wrestle with the word of God in and figure out what God is telling us through his word I guess I've grown up a little bit weary of having the Word of God almost filtered down and maybe that's a Protestant weariness I guess yeah and I've inherited yeah so I'm learning a lot hearing that answer and it is an answer that I it must be very liberating to be able to do that and and I get that I get the freedom in that but yeah I don't really have an answer to that but I find it I find it fascinating well one you know one of the joys of being Catholic is when someone asks me something I just turn around and I ask what does the church teach so if you say what about hell I say what does the church teach and every Christian reads that Christ built his church right people in church on Peter or on Peters confession or whatever every Christian believes that Christ built a church and that Christ ascended to heaven and he promised to send the helper and the Holy Spirit and that Holy Spirit has promised to guide us into all truth but when someone asked me a question about doctrine and I say what does the church teach the question then obviously becomes where's the church what is the church mmm all Christians agree that Christ built a church but the question is where is it today and is that church guided by the Holy Spirit today so when I ask you what does the church teach about Hell where is the website of the church that talks about that doctrine or is that doctrine not essential therefore there's no document of the church on that yeah but I mean there are very few cases we need to examine either a particular doctrine is not important so the holy spirit hasn't documented it in the church or it is important and it needs to be documented for posterity in the church because we don't we we can't just reinvent the wheel every time someone comes in the next generation and reads the Bible and gets comes to a false course calls absolutely nowhere where is the church and where is the documented trail of established truths when heretics come along and the church corrects the heretics and then documents the right path the golden mean down the center between this error and that error documents the correct Christian teaching where is that where is that documentation today we have the internet and it's very easy to put for the church to put together a website and have these established saving truths in one convenient location that's what I have yeah yeah yeah what say you when someone asks where's the church today what do you say yeah so I would point them first off well let's look at Scripture so let's look at what the Bible says that's generally my go to with with things like this and can I interrupt you for a second yeah yeah go for it I just had a conversation on Facebook with a friend of mine he's Protestant and I asked him did Christ build a church he said yes and then I said where is the church he said the church is the Holy Scriptures and then we US interesting and they had a conversation for a few minutes and he denied that the church is the Holy Scriptures he reversed his answer and so I was forced to ask him again did Christ build a church then because it's not the scriptures like he initially claimed and I said no Christ did not build a church and then I simply asked him well why does it say in the Bible to create adult a church and he didn't answer but this is this is this is not to disparage the character of my friend it's we're not we're not expected to have the answer to every question about why not like like I said when I have a question I always ask in reply another question what does the church teach it's always going to be my answer so is there a church D Christ build a church and what does that church teach and you you pointed me to script so is the district is the church is the church Scripture yes or no if it's not then where is the church we can't we can't avoid this question it seems the only way to avoid it is to interpret away that part of Scripture that seems to indicate that the church is the pillar and the ground of truth and that Christ built his church and that the church will be guided into altered into all truth by the Holy Spirit and so on and so forth yeah I'll just try to work out in my own head or clarify when you use the word church do I mean a structure or famed framework that's been built it's up to you to interpret when Christ said he believed what did he mean he meant anything yeah he definitely built the church whether that looks like the structural organization and recording of the Catholic Church that we see or whether it's more like the acts Church of very much bringing leaders into succession teaching them as you go bringing in organizational structures to help the poor and deliver the deliver sharing the meal communion that kind of thing so yes Christ built a church do I mean a hierarchical organizational structure maybe not I kind of look to when I when I defined sure - yeah define church from the scriptures from acts mainly what I see it happening there with the early church yeah this is an interesting line that line of thinking that I wouldn't say the church is the word I don't I don't see how that works so I don't know if that answers your question it's just yeah causing me to think through what I mean by what church yeah it's not I'm not looking for answers I'm looking to give you food for thought and yeah you're not you know you're giving me food for thought this is just a conversation but is the Canon of Scripture never mind where it came from bu but is it open or closed meaning could other books be added to it and if not why not again one that I've taken through tradition to be closed yeah they already in that yeah oh we have our own traditions and we figure out where we stand on that is I guess as we go along our Christian journey and where where I'm at with that I yeah I do think that the there is no reason to add anything more to the pages of Scripture is the tradition that gave us the Canon and it gave us the fact that the Canon is closed is that tradition identical with the church meaning is tradition something that the church does is that what tradition is is there a logical connection between church and tradition or are those two isolated because you seem to be having a problem finding the church but you have no problem whatsoever identifying the tradition of the church so it would seem to me that if you point to tradition this is where we got the Canon this group of men sat down and discussed it and came up with the Canon and it decided that the Canon was closed so when I asked you where's the church I mean you point to the book of Acts but we see apostolic succession in the Bible we see that Judas was replaced by another apostle and so yeah the church and tradition are intimately linked would you not say yes yeah yeah yeah Tiffany so I've always defined church as a body of believers following Christ and it's that community that shares communion where it has people that are profess Jesus is Lord of baptized and that then leads to working out a different way of life than the culture around them and so as I define church the body believers bodies of believers generally need organizational structures as we see in at where that has led us to in the form of tradition is is looking at church history so when I think of church history I do look at Catholic Church history alongside Protestant history and try and find that mean thread that you discuss and I think my where I'm at at the moment looking at tradition is I'm very aware that the younger church streams the like the one that I'm part of we have a tendency to look at tradition with suspicion and I found that I have less suspicion than many and so I'm quite friendly towards the the aspects of tradition that bring us closer to who God is His Holy Spirit is and and aren't just these modern forms of worship that we have got ourselves into that don't seem to fulfill in the same way so one thing that's kind of led me into this conversation what I've been looking forward to this one is I saw a YouTube video of a Protestant guy going into a Catholic cathedral I'm just having a really nice conversation with the Catholic priest to a little star the Ellis family and that conversation is just so beautiful and and the the the part of my church tradition that we miss out on all that iconography all the symbolism that yeah the tradition of symbolism so when we go into books like Rev we almost starting from scratch sometimes so I think there are some significant weaknesses in these younger traditions that we need to learn from the rich history of the Christian tradition in all forms if we're going to survive beyond what looks like very much a kind of modern cultural reinvention of things or trying to redeem things that may not be redeemable I guess I don't know what I'm saying there but that was who's very much me just trying to explore what what traditions have been thrown out that we shouldn't and yeah and that's that's where we be open to this kind of conversation is is I I very much see just like within Protestantism there will probably be a lot of Christian believers that or people who label themselves Christians who within that Matthew 25 context won't be amongst the people that Jesus welcomes in but there will be a lot of Protestants that are and then just on the same side is with Catholics I think the same thing I think there's people who have a genuine saving faith that through by calls by God's grace they are working out their salvation through this fear and trembling and and working out what that means within the church tradition that they're part of and I yeah I guess I long for a little bit more the sort of barrier Barry's breaking down between various practices and I don't know what that looks like I don't know how that works I'm not quite sure I'm fully on board with some of the Catholic Church traditions in the sense of purgatory and yeah just some of those other other things you mentioned yeah yeah I kind of get it in the sense of understood answers I've heard and I'm not one to go all Catholics idol worshippers and and all that kind of stuff and I'll get actually I found myself defending Catholics from Boston she he say that and with a little information that I've gained but every Catholic off of him talk to is has explained it in a way that says it's not idolatry but then I'm more inclined to a few that Christ is the mediator and so I through through his death I have access to the Father and I can pray directly to God and I know I know that you can we do yeah and I know that to be the case I guess I just don't quite fully get why you'd have Mary and the Saints on the side other than that they're your friends and you pray to them as well yeah the holiness their example is important to us all so I want it I wanted to go way back to the beginning where you said that church doctrine has changed if you compare the teachings of different councils over the ages that is true but none of the none of the actual doctrines per se meaning infallible doctrines dogmas have changed it's only the disciplines or the pastoral directives and some of the non fallible teachings that have changed over time this is exactly what we mean when we say that we have infallibility in the church is that some of the truths are eternal unchanging truths protected by the Holy Spirit the church cannot teach error concerning faith in morals so those few definitions like they're probably maybe 500 or so that have been properly defined as infallible truth those 500 and change but the tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of directives and pastoral teachings have changed and change and probably should change and must change because of the nature of our finite creation here below things are in flux the changing times changing needs changing emphasis and so we should not be surprised to see the infallible unchanging truths accompanied always by fallible truths and by truths which are not necessarily fallible in and of themselves but which are subject to change nonetheless so we always need to keep in mind this this principle that in essentials unity in non essentials diversity and in all things charity so that's just a little event a little slogan of vatican ii but i really do recommend read the early church fathers on certain issues which are distinctively catholics such as the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist if you look into the early church fathers from the first century all the way through to the eighth century in ninth century and all the way till today actually but their fathers obviously are defined as ending somewhere in the seventh eighth centuries but if you read the early church fathers on those distinctively Catholic teachings you'll see you'll see that the tradition is there and any dogma that came later was also present early in the church but there was no need or pressure to define it so we we wait until the time is right to define it but we continue to believe it throughout the history of the church but yeah I just wanted to make that distinction very clear about the non essential teachings that can change yeah yeah is it just have heard quite a lot of Protestants quote that in essentials yeah T non-essential Stover stay yeah just in that says Jesu my ignorance really when were those infallible truths sort of dictated or came about from the Catholic Church they're not dictated it's not inspiration the Bible is inspired meaning that the Holy Spirit is a primary author of the Holy Scriptures and he wanted certain things written down and the the human instruments of their own freewill wanted to write down those things and only those things that the Holy Spirit wanted written down that's an active positive inspiration that's not what happens in the church what happens in the church is a bunch of sinners get together and they worship God they belong to the church they're striving to be submissive to Mother Church in to the Father the Son the Holy Spirit and because they're members of the church in good standing and good faith and men of good will and they submit to the church and they're able to hash out questions and defend the church from heresy and in the in that very ugly and messy and political process out comes the beautiful sausage right where you have the dogma is dogma pops out and the the the dogma that's well defined by the church is protected by the Holy Spirit in a negative way it means if you pop out this doctrine that's dogmatically defined as infallible it is protected from being wrong I mean you can't if you wanted for example there was a pope that wanted to teach err for the whole church to believe and he dropped dead just on his way to just set it into motion so the nation that may be a colorful anecdote but it gets my point across the church operates in a negative way preventing error from being taught now why don't we just sit down I'm often fantasized why don't the bishops get together and just random program a computer you could be able to talk about this program a computer to just generate every possible combination of teachings that could be remotely connected to Jesus Christ into God and to the church and to salvation and to more ality and to the Creed's and just generate them all and systematically go through all of them trying to dogmatically define them and those that are true will pass through because the the Holy Spirit will not have prevented those ones from being from being dogmatically defined it's a childish fantasy that I have but I do I do sometimes think about that it's kind of like that childish fantasy about the priests blessing all the oceans and all the clouds making holy water out of the entire waters and waterways of the entire planet it's a childish fantasy it's but there's some truth to it like and in a certain sense the all of the waters have been blessed right by Jesus at his baptism and and by the church in different consecrations that the church is made of the entire world to the Sacred Heart of Jesus for example that took place not before our lifetime I think in your father your grandfather your grandparents at a lifetime so there are there are a lot of large and sweeping movements in the church but there's a spiritual battle taking place so we work these things out like you said in fear and trembling and there's a lot of really messy details colored by politics colored by money colored by greed colored by sex of all things we'd read about some of the Pope's in the Middle Ages not many of them but a few of them really indulged in in sin in a way that was over-the-top but it's a messy it's a messy ordeal but the basic idea is if you don't like watching how the sausage gets made just turn away your eyes but if you have if you have no guts for it it's fascinating and absolutely no problem in my mind distinguishing the baby from the bathwater ever and if I see something that's sloshing around that stinks and that's liquid and that is putrid I consider that to be bathwater and when I see a fleshy rosy colored toe I think that probably belongs to the baby and if is telling them and it sounds like what we all face when we work through how church works and functions and the practices that we have within that and what we can learn from other Christians who do things slightly different to us yeah I found that really interesting and helpful I've set myself a little task to be working my way through the early church fathers there's quite a few pages to do to read and yeah and is something that I'm trying to work through and learn from and so I will be making note of traditions and teachings as I go through in that I am interested and yeah I'm interested in in learning and hearing and being having the pushback on that but I yeah it's still very much hold to the fact that we can understand scripture for ourselves where that takes us needs the guidance of a church whether that whether that is a as I said whether that's the Catholic Church or a church of fellow believers on equal footing whatever what that looks like I think some churches have taken that too far and every interpretation is valid and that is very much the danger but I believe the way that we are the the church that I'm part of currently has the rigidity in place to hold to truth the truth of salvation truth is yeah various things that we we are countercultural both in terms of counter Protestant cultural but also counter cultural in in the world so yeah that's kind of where I'm at and hoping that people in my church are learning with me and this whole process of being a Christian is continual learning continual humility and I don't think I'll ever know enough but I'm resting in God's grace that he's given me a brain and a heart for people and that's kind of where I'm at yeah I wanted to bounce an idea off you just an image from the Old Testament in Genesis of Noah having built the ark because he was instructed by God to build the ark you see to save humanity all people of goodwill and this is how I see the church this is how the early church fathers saw the church as Noah's Ark very colorful image very very powerful I'm a young earth creationist so I believe in the literal historical value of Genesis and you know within limits obviously there's there various forms of literature and writing styles in the Bible and even in Genesis but I believe in a worldwide catastrophic flood I believe in you know the the whole universe is well under ten thousand years old and this is a constant tradition and the liturgies of the East and the Western that Catholic and Orthodox churches and I believe in the Tower of Babel you know I believe these things is being historical but even if they're not even if you don't believe that the image is used by Jesus Christ with Noah and the time of Noah and all this having fun and then the flood came and most people were not prepared only eight people were saved as we saw there recently with the one Peter and the image of the church as Ark and you're in or you're out it is a dogma of the church at Auvers whole dogma that there's absolutely no possibility of salvation outside of the visible boundaries of the Holy Roman Catholic Church and it's very controversial dogma but it's it's reaffirmed in Vatican 2 but it's moderated also in various councils including Vatican 2 where which says that the Church of Christ subsist in the Holy Roman Catholic Church but there are elements of saving truth outside of for visible boundaries obviously and that are separated brethren and Protestant communities obviously if they're baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit they are Christian if they're striving to be Christian and they are they are under the umbrella of the church they are in an imperfect relationship with the church it's not like you're damned I mean I would consider you to be a material heretic if not a formal hair ticket I mean I don't know I only god can judge the heart to know if you're a formal heretic or not but would that would imply that you knew that the Catholic Church was the one true church but you refuse to enter right but that's a damnable sin but I don't think most Protestants today believe that the church is the one that cough churches the one true church so they are excused and there's a great emphasis on that with the recent Pope's that it's not the same situation when I'm talking with you today as if I were talking to Luther right after he took his bride out of the nunnery and started sinning and sinning boldly it's quite a different quite a different situation but talking about Christian unity and the or just talk about what it means to be inside the ark and what it means to be saved and what it means for those who are outside I mean you talk to it I don't talk about Hell but I just want to talk about the Christian unity the project today of Christian unity how do we help others onto the ark how do we know that we are on the ark how do we know who were Christian and how do we help others onto the ark and how do we stay on the ark it's just stick with that image of Noah's Ark and talk about it from your perspective please yeah yeah so traditionally my church is very much sort of reformed charismatic viewpoint on things so where I'm at I'm generally on the fence with most theological doctrines I try and build my framework as bubbly as possible so probably a Calvin Ian's in in a lot of ways so the you know answers your question regarding who's on the ark is those who profess affects faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior who are working out their salvation what I mean by that there are visible steps they are taking to follow Christ and that will be in the way that they live the way that they repent were the way that they confess the way that they worship the way that they read the Bible the way that they pray and so I as the Bible says we can't see the heart God can and I rely on those outward signs of an inward change one of those signs is baptism and another is repentance and another is the fruits of the spirit and that's what I'm looking for in my church those people who are working that out what that means for them and and trying to pastoral care for them in their physical needs and practical needs so that they actually have a willingness to hear the gospel what that looks like in my town is there's this 48 churches within my town some summer Catholics I'm on and there's a wide variety of denominations as well as practices mostly some have more core doctrines that I wouldn't that I hold likely to to be a member so I think there's some of these churches that I probably wouldn't be as welcome in because of my views on hell whereas any any doctrinal statement that says eternal punishment I I can sign because I do agree with the ternal punishment I just think it's a death who don't come back from so I'm happy to flesh that out in a bit but the so who's who's on the ark well I'm only responsible for the the part of the earth honey and I guess and that's that's where I hope to as I work across denominational lines that's part of my job so I work for a as I save Angelica organization and that is there to support international students but also to link churches together in providing for supporting opening hospitality to the internet international students in our town alongside Christians who will have a more traditional view on practice and I guess in some Anglican churches they they do look quite Catholic in terms of tradition in some cases but then with others they'll be pretty less structured than mine but what I'm looking for when I asked them to work with us can they profess their faith do they yeah can that get there are they known by the minister that they are are serving under and so I think there are many people on the ark but the practice of their faith may differ but they all profess on the essentials so saving faith through Christ alone and a part of a church a body of body of believers who love Jesus and are trying to follow his word as best as they can with the Holy Spirit working amongst them what would it take to bring you into full communion with Rome and to become a Catholic what would it would you just paint a little fantasy picture of how that might come about if it were to come about not that I'm saying it necessarily would or we're but even if it's unlikely how how do you see that playing out that's a really good question I honestly don't know I'm this is probably one of the first most in-depth conversations I've had around Catholic doctrine I had friends who are Catholic growing up and in the universe not growing up as such in university mainly I call University growing up still I had friends who were Catholic but wouldn't be able to explain why I would need to be Catholic we just were University students really so I'm early days in this journey I've really looked at that I think I need to learn a bit more I need I'd need some real Civic pushes by the Holy Spirit in that yeah is it it is an interesting question I don't feel necessarily that of where if saying I feel yeah after after reflector I don't honestly know what would what it would take I think it would take probably quite a few interactions with other Catholics seeing their practice and their faith impacting the community and I know it does in the town that I am in but I guess more unity and I'm not quite sure at least in the town that I'm in I'm not sure where the barriers lie still on and I'm I've been in the town that I'm in for a bit over a decade I've been in leadership in church for three may be going on for four years I've been in the position I'm in with across denominational organization for two still finding that church is a territorial and so I'm all for unity in what we can agree and and cross those barriers but some churches I just can't even cross the threshold in I and trying to figure out why there is so I guess in some ways in my in my town I would need more interaction with Catholics before I even came across like even thinking that was where God was taking me in my family as well I have an easier question for you related though and then I'll let you folks have another engagement in other words if you came to believe that Christ is not the Messiah he is not the god man he's there's no Trinity would you be more inclined to go to Judaism or Islam or would you go to a generic monotheism just play along with a thought experiment don't don't or don't argue to me that Christ is definitely the Messiah and that he's definitely the second person of the Trinity don't try to dip that case just go with the thought experiment and if you're more inclined to fall back on Judaism or Islam or generic monotheism and just talk to me about what would be involved in you transitioning to Judaism or to Islam or to generic monotheism what would that look like just play it out for me in a thought experiment in all the thought experiments I've had the the the only alternative for me would be atheism I've looked into Islam quite a considerable amount and let alone what I find of the historical accuracy of their documents I guess out of the three Abrahamic religions if we take Christianity out of it I would probably lean more towards Judaism I guess it's fairly natural from a but even even in that historical aspect of Judaism and what they believe that is still something I'm catching up on I think there is a lot to be learnt from the Jewish Jewish faith I haven't really something I'm learning that how Jews interpret the Old Testament is very different from us evangelical Protestants and that is something that I'm learning so what does it look like for me to step back from the Trinity well ultimately I think the alternative would be to leave faithful together I'm not convinced by Islam I'm not convinced by what I have engaged with in the Jewish faith but yeah maybe I'll work maybe I would engage more with Judaism maybe that's what we're all in head because that's what we believe we're based from I just I want to contrast what you're saying with my perspective which is I was an atheist for 25 years I was raised in a very liberal Protestant denomination which today has a theist ministers in Canada it's called the United Church of Canada you crazy you can get you can Google Greta Voss where I interviewed her lovely lady but she's an atheist and she spearheaded to prop the movement to get atheist ministers accepted in that denomination in Canada it's the biggest denomination in Canada by the way it's a very liberal country here all if you've been to Canada but I would love to I've got friends in Canada but yeah I haven't been able to make it yeah I'm in Montreal which is typically a Catholic historically a Catholic place but my point is that I found God the Father through philosophy and there's absolutely nothing that could take away my faith in God because I don't have faith in God I have a knowledge of God a deductive certainty that God exists and so there's nothing absolutely nothing that could tear me away from monotheism nothing short of a brain damage but in terms of which of the monotheistic religions happens to be the true one I'm very firmly convinced that it's Christianity I don't I don't believe that there's any case for Judaism since the Messiah came I mean they don't think it's the Messiah that came but I think it's looking at history I think it's pretty clear that Messiah came and looking at Islam I mean it's just ridiculous the claims I make about the early church that it was a Muslim Church and it wasn't to Christian Church and there was no there was no talk of Trinity in the early church is complete nonsense and so his store just using history I think we can rule out Judaism in Islam today yeah with but if I were to come to believe that Jesus Christ is not the Jewish Messiah then I'm back to generic monotheism just worshiping God the Father and looking around to see how how and where the this infallible God left a trace of his infallible teachings that will lead to him and fallible e so again it comes down to Authority where did the infallible God leave communication to us that will give us the certainty of faith once we once we know who and what God is and that he is all-knowing and all good it stands to reason that he would establish a means for us to to go back to him because we come from him and we need a safe way of going back to him otherwise we're stuck in a sort of fides 'im faith alone without any rational component or we're left in it artik Gnosticism where we just don't know what we can know and if we can if we can know anything so I just want to contrast my point of view with your point of view and I would encourage you to solidify your monotheism such that you could never ever ever become an atheist and in order to do that you need to study philosophy and some of the proves of the existence of God and sort of just meditate and ponder on existence itself and essence in existence is your essence existence and if not then there has to be a being one and only one being whose essence is existence and that everyone calls God and so I don't I really don't see how you could be taken back to a theater not that you ever were an atheist I know I was yeah I was yeah yeah yeah okay we were saying I think in let me just clarify for for the case of the video I would only see that's that's not to say I see it atheism as a valid framework of you in the world I think what I mean by that is and if there's atheists watching this then it might sound a little bit harsh but if if I don't have Christ if I don't have Jesus then I have hopeless world view and I don't have heaven the the new creation I don't have solid ground to stand on for giving good reason for why we face suffering other than it's just bad luck and there's no real meaning around it so yeah I would probably end up I guess if I'm to go philosophical I the whole arguments for why there's a God the Father I I get for the Soviet League and would agree with you on that but I think Oh take me a little while to regain my thoughts if it was proven that Jesus wasn't the Messiah yeah if if a circle we're not a circle is it more likely to be a triangle or a square that's the sort of dilemma I gave you and I mean you I forced you to answer so you're like well I guess I go for a square because a circle right yeah yeah that's good so I have to let you go but I'd love to chat with you again if you have the time and inclination I reach out to you I'll reach out to you maybe in a couple months see how are you doing didn't see if you've become Catholic yet and I really enjoyed it it's been great turning and yeah hopefully in a couple months over there other Tonti talk again yeah so your baby's healthy now or is she getting the care she needs she's gonna cashews for she's she's got a rare condition called Rett syndrome so it's going to be a lifetime prognosis that we will need sort of 24-hour support and care and physio and various other things which is the journey that we we're on if you want to know a little bit more about us then they can find out on we've got website for our Rosalie's rainbow calm or I've got a blog that's not about Hell which is just called as a simple blog online people can read that and hear my journey of faith through what we're going through so yeah we she's doing well she's a very cute little girl she is very lovely and given us a lot of purpose she's got and t

CVS Live Guest - 2020-02-16 - Jesse Pascucci

we are live I'm here with Jesse hi Jesse how are you doing I'm good what's going on what's new with you I mean we just met but maybe tell me and the listeners a little bit about you so who you are what you believe currently and how he came to believe what you I'm Jesse I'm 22 I'm from New York I'm right now in our say preparing to be how are you raised my family is well I was really Catholic but like my family not that much devoted though um okay here and there and can you just talk a little bit about how you may have fallen away from the faith and how you're coming back to the faith and sort of thing oh well I had like problems listening to my parents and whatnot like like around like 13 I got into like I guess he's being called Allah really we're good yeah we're good just pull your face back because we can't see your eyes there you go okay well um around like 13 um I got into like witchcraft and for a couple of years it was like uh uh make it was only with cough and then wait when was it uh uh I saw like a lot of things like like stuff with it and like I'll try to like get superpowers and stuff cuz I couldn't really like discern off fantasy from reality and my parents weren't liking it and I was hearing voices which from now what I know is that like I was saying I was controlling it the voices which I know excuse authentic people they can't really control their places like that though I know like now it was actually me talking to myself and I gave like personalities to those voices whatnot okay have you been diagnosed with any mental illness that you know autism okay I want to stick do you know where you're on the spectrum I'm a high-functioning okay there's no specific Asperger's or whatever yeah there's Asperger's yeah okay and how do you cope with that how do you manage that is or are the techniques I have like my meds talking to people behavioral specialist or sometimes counselor you know okay and what are some of the benefits of being on the spectrum do you have high focus and the ability to dig deep into your favorite topics like I have OCD which we know obsessions and stuff yeah um that's where like the autumn was for which car horn I was obsessed with it yeah but what happened is that like I shift like I am go to one obsession and to another hmm so um what happened for a while was that I was going back and forth between Catholic and witchcraft so like I would circle I'll be like one week or two weeks I'll be Catholic and a two week old do really Toby which car I would be back and forth but um my my be my people are helping me with that like I I did like a two-week thing where like I didn't do any of that stuff and I just did like a neutral standpoint and I'll just view my options and then like I was receiving things from like both sides like I used to I used to believe in like the Greek gods and um like Morse gods like Thor and I have like dreams off um but I know now that that is not them because I don't know the demons can lie and like they try to make believe to make you think it's those things with actually them and the skies and stuff yeah so I uh yeah I do like a two-week thing and I actually felt like the Holy Spirit and whatnot one time and it was like him telling me that like it's not gods it's actually the double actually tricking me towards that and there's those dogs aren't real and I got the idea that like if those gods were real Zeus Odin Thor and whatnot they that would mean the monster should be real that would mean that the Gorgon so I guess Isis and whatnot that would be real and though be nothing to do to stop it and plus the demigods went like they would be there only once in a while or a couple years which really wouldn't make any sense can you know me on a technical note can you do me a favor and either tilt up your device or pull back so we can authorize welven because it's only your mouth and nose that we're seeing is it possible to yeah there you go okay just it's more human to see the eyes and they see the personality but yeah I agree you know there are a lot of demons that are proposing false ideas false religions false gods and as it says in Holy Scripture all of the guys try to actually all the claimants other techniques like a they try to make me fear the Virgin Mary you know what not because you know the Protestants they say a whole bunch of things yeah like I just ignore it because I know that um there's a lot of evidence for Catholic like a lot of evidence like the apparitions and uh like like the body like the Saints bodies like in crop bowl ya know and it's a lot of evidence that like I plus the Catholics say they like how that we compiled the Bible basically like I got off I've watched a good video saying like Martin Luther know stuff about him that like I was like okay maybe he's not for me so on my journey home because I'm being baptized and received and you know into the church yeah I recommend you watch a show it was on EWTN I'm not sure if it still is it's called the Trudeau reading the journey home with Marcus Grodi I highly recommend you watch it though I don't watch it all the time but I try to good very good because the primary issue for everyone that comes into the church from Protestantism is Authority infallibility the in defect ability of the church yeah that's natural for me it's not coming from Protestant it's more of coming from I'm like New Age really yeah you know I was in the New Age for years right oh I was yeah I remember I remember when I was in high school my own I got my friend into witchcraft and whatnot and he took off some things that I never got to do and then like he he's doing like enlightenment things now and I don't really like that he's doing that so I tried to like pray for him ya know see if he can come back you know sure cuz he was doing Christian mysticism for a bit but for some reason he stopped yeah why prayer and fasting it's a it's a twisted and winding road that each of us has to traverse to get to the truth and to submit to the truth it's not easy you're still young you've got your whole life ahead of you so I start now with the good habits put all the demonic stuff behind you and renounce forever Satan and you know have a strong devotion to the precious blood of Jesus the Sacred Heart of Jesus the Immaculate Heart of Mary and there are lots of devotions devotion to st. Michael the Archangel that's a good one to chase off the demon yeah he's kind of like one of those like action Saints I'm a big superhero fan like Marvel and DC you know yeah there so many riches in the church and the the trinkets outside of the church the trinkets in the New Age the trinkets in Wicca the trick 'it's in Satanism are very cheap imitations and if you talk to any if you talk to any ex Satanist who's come into the church they're gonna say that there was nothing they you know these other false worldviews can't hold a candle to the treasures and the riches that we have in the church so once you taste and see that the Lord is good you will be less and less tempted to go back to the other ways right exactly and I know about tourism and whatnot it would shrink in me and then confirmation which make tonight even further than which I really can't wait it's gonna be so awesome yeah well why are you not baptized already I mean I'm happy that you haven't been because all of your sins are gonna be wiped away and all of the consequences do to see and will also be raped away so I'm very happy and I congratulate you on this upcoming event but why were you not baptized as a child well I I get low about this but I was my mom my real mom not my stepmom is I'm with my dad and my stepmom right now and my real mom when my dad was with my real mom she was kind of like abusive and she was like shoot like she would like do things like um she would like leave me in the house for days and soft but uh stuff happened and they I meant um like a managed to rescue me from there like the people I don't like a call they rescued me from their social workers yeah something like that and my dad my dad got custody of me and after years but um like I like five he got oh four five five or four he got custody at me and I was with him and my stepmom and my stepsister ever since next so you're pretty happy you got a stable situation or is it is it okay your situation now your home life it's okay just my parents like my dad and my stepmom they don't like the idea of me like becoming wanting to be a priest you know okay I want to be a priest but I'm saying to them that's not solid right now yeah I don't know what it could be they may not meet you because of the autism it's just there is teaching in the church they're afraid some things didn't happen you know yeah see you might you might have a calling to something else but god only knows you might you might be called into the priesthood there are examples of people who have had mild forms of mental illness who were called to the priesthood and God can heal any problem that we have whether it's physical emotional spiritual mental right so there's no real impediment for God but typically there are screening processes that the church uses when candidates for the priesthood and probably you'd be low on the list of an ideal candidate because of because of the autism at different things like that but it doesn't mean that you couldn't be a priest one day and it doesn't mean that it maybe you have another calling to religious life or to married life there are the many many callings so don't get too obsessed with what you want just be open to what God wants for you okay right but I'm reading a book a ring a book called the Sabre thousands both nice yeah is it it's good is it a prayer for this souls in purgatory no it's it's like a thing to help discern the priesthood really like I'll see if it's right for you nice I I do pray for the soul stone purgatory but with the road Mosley can you know you having to memorize that prayer there's some prayer where relief is like a thousand souls every time you create I'm trying to memorize just I could say it on my own yeah yeah I say if every decade of the Rosary I say that so they're five thousand souls freed from purgatory allegedly every time I do my rosary every night so that's that's a beautiful thing to incorporate in my groceries so when I when I finish a decade I say the st. Brigid prayer for the holy souls yeah beautiful and beautiful prayer so many devotions so many prayers talk me through your sort of daily routine now when you wake up do you do the sign of the Cross do you do some prayers in the morning do two crows I do you do the prayers in the evening scapular okay which I have to get it reenroll but on I pray the I do like the morning offering and I try to pray in my head every chance I get because I like praying in my mind kind of like it's easier to say things like my mind process is a lot more than what doesn't know yeah that's good and sometimes I pray the rosary straight with my mind really like say it my thought and ya know morning opera is actually the morning offering it's one of my favorite prayers I really love it can I do like makes it's my scapular yeah just does not show my saw the home when I when I am baptized I do plan on being consecrated to Mary and you know we enrolling my scapular nice it was so cool it was so cool when I first got enrolled because I felt like this energy like course around me and it was really cool like all the negativity just was like away like like all my thoughts were like in order you know mmm calm peace as I get I get like my thoughts like my first level thoughts like the thoughts I think when I just think and then there's like thoughts that like are below those like I almost sub conscience but leg day speak sometimes yeah and I feel like catch them in the act and try to like control it you know okay yeah I'm reading the Desert Fathers and they emphasize controlling our thoughts and using constant prayer to chase away the demons and to chase away the vain thoughts that can really distract us and to chase away those appetites that are based and it can lead to sin so do you know of the Jesus Prayer yes I love the fair if you think you memorize and I'll do one the mother Teresa was saying uh um Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God be murdered to me now my god I saw it on the Facebook thing I said ever since beautiful so constantly have recourse to prayer chases the ways of the demons and like I said it chases away your own evil thoughts and those patterns and habits that have thought that you have and so it's a habit we all need to get into replacing like I mean it's like try to like confront them but then like put them back in the corner where they can't like where they can't attack me but then like they really can't door like defenseless really and they can't really do anything you know but try yeah Satan is a chicken he's he's a wimpy little weakling and all his demons are very yea weak and useless it's it's just the power of suggestion where they can seduce you and lure you with some great palm promise of power and pleasure and all that but it's it's just a bunch of empty lives and they cower as soon as you summon Jesus or Mary or Joseph or any of Joseph is another one another one that terrifies the Saints but also see that terrifying but all of the saints don't really like that little terror of demons st. Joseph so we've got a lot of resources a lot of power and it's not our power it's the power of God right it's God you know yeah so what are you excited about these days that you're learning are you reading the early church fathers are you reading the Bible are you reading the company's and Bible and I'm watching YouTube videos usually on Catholic Answers or EWTN I love us I love that tunnel yeah like I have my Catholic apps but I really have to get new tablet so I can add more right now I'm actually trying to ask my staff if I could like get a new tablet you know which staff is like independent living place you know I'll come in like a uh I don't know a group home there's like something like that where like I'm more independent and you know okay I can move around by myself nice do you still get to see fat the family that you want to see yes I do I got to see my parents usually my dad comes up and take Ebola in you yes very nice so are you being instructed by a priest or a religious or labia um actually I have a couple um Deacon Hodge he's from st. Charles Borromeo and Harlem nice and he said yeah um he runs the are say a class with his walk with uh Stacey I think is his wife so um him them too uh and also father Bernard he's like a Benedictine nun I'm about Benedictine a monk I meant nice and he's also a priest so he's at st. Joseph's st. Joseph's the Holy Family on 125th nice so whenever I'm on 125th I stopped by and I talked to him and he give me encouragement and like stuff I should do you know I'm going to look up right now if you don't mind the Confraternity of the precious blood if you don't mind the Confraternity of precious blood it's in New York I just want to ask you are you closing for your music that's my housemate no okay okay do you are you near Brooklyn at all I am ba9 dependent over there yet okay I say there's a Confraternity I belong to and it's in Brooklyn it's all be armed it's a Carmelite right and I it might be but I'm not sure it was a monastery in Brooklyn it's on 5300 Fort Hamilton Parkway in New York New York is that anywhere near you not it's in New York in New York City but I can't travel there but yeah it's it's it's some distance I could probably go there okay because I know like meeting April about it nice why do they limit your travel restrict your travel so see if I can handle it and see if like the Train me and travel training and get to be more confident yes and like um being able to handle by myself like um handling money and traveling the trains bosses you know okay make sure I know how to get around know what to do if a situation happen yeah is New York's is it a scary place isn't it a dangerous place like they show on movies it's it's somewhat yeah I I got I get around it quickly like I'm a fast Walker I'm really kind of okay and you have cheese's on your side so yeah it's like the sorts but you know I would yeah I would just go toward where groups of people are and like if some creepy person is following you just turn into a busy place and say I just need to be around people so I can feel safe because even when I was a kid I was bullied on my block and I would just go into a family home nearby and just say some guys chasing me and they would they ah somewhat but uh like more like jokes I couldn't handle okay like here we do your mom you do - mama - okay they were I don't know I didn't like them dirty jokes oh he's nasty not very respectful those probably come from Satan because Satan hates Mother Church and Satan hates the mother of God our Blessed Mother yeah so have you read or skimmed through the Catechism of the Catholic Church I have the Catechism actually my deacon gave me one I have it on my Kindle - it's on my Google I've gotta give them they're nice a bunch of books they're beautiful everything you need to know is basically summarized in there and lots of footnotes and you can do further reading based on that and then nothing down to reading it yet like actually front the back um because we're still learning about certain church teachings but you're saying to try to like because I know the Catechism can be quite confusing for some people am I correct it's a lot of information but it's pretty clear and straightforward it's clear and straightforward and somatically or compartmentalized and broken down into sections so it's easy to digest but you know those I remember those one time meeting father Bernard we do like this thing where like we pick a random page and see if God can like speak to us do it okay and we flip the page and actually he said a baptism of adults I was asking whether I was wondering was baptized for the baby or if I wasn't I said baptism of adults it was pretty cool nice so are you getting a conditional baptism are you getting I believes all there cuz um they're saying that it's gonna take some time to look at the book so I might be conditionally baptized okay it's just good because that's what I was thinking since the beginning of the yeah I might have to be conditionally back I since either my parents no or none of us know you know God knows a lot of what mm-hmm well I'm hoping and praying that you were not baptized because it's gonna be better for you because you're gonna have all of the consequences due to same way okay what are you gonna fresh slate baptism I know that when you're baptized as a baby good godparents which I never had godparents if I if I if I were baptized I wouldn't let them yeah that's great oh I think that's another sign I was in bath I said you know I hope so yeah but either way God is optimizing everything for you for your ultimate greatest happiness always so we don't we don't need to worry whatever happens is meant to be and your job is just to cooperate with all of God's graces that's it mm-hmm I remember um I remember I was doing a consecration to the Holy Angels and I felt like this whole again like the energy came over me with the neck with no negative thoughts yeah and actually I thought I was in the state of grace but I found out that it could have been the Holy Spirit like touching me yeah you know thanks I also I also remember a time where I was praying it was probably like the first time and I prayed actually wanting to pray and actually even had my conch leader next to me and actually I actually said 777 so I asked my dad he was like oh that's God watching you that's nice so your dad to believe her what what sort of faith turn has he been on my family's Catholic it's just like they believed but not as to how I believe really it's they're not like that devoted but just to know you know like they go to the funerals they go to the baptisms okay culturally Catholic and still they still love God I recommend you look into Blessed Bertolo Longo he's an ex Satanist and he became a Catholic and he promoted the Rosary that's me yeah Longo like long with an O on the end but he he's connected with our Lady of Pompeii but I'll send you some links are there many many people who have in a new age and in Satanism who come to the church and I had the privilege of meeting an exorcist a Catholic priest who is nitrous system he did some deliverance prayers for me for generational evil I also did give her her two-spirit spouses I did things with that okay I still it's like ice I like when people talk about marriage it gets me thinking about that yeah like oh no like I got away stop her from doing that or you know yeah you're elected you're connected to evil and you need to break the connection and myself there yeah there are there there's a because heaven and hell and purgatory and the economy of salvation and everything is legalistic in the sense that you make contracts with the demons and they're binding they're binding until there is always just you know I've tried to say like I break it in Jesus name you know yeah I reign fire from the sky we're just some ashes you know the answers and useless flood to yourself with the precious blood of Jesus just picture the water and blood flowing out of Jesus side at just cascading over you and your loved ones and your enemies energization I'm sorry visualization yeah I know sure if you're comfortable with it if you're comfortable always I could try just I've always considered visualization more anyways you can I guess it could be you can you can maybe you should take a firm stand against visualization because the early church fathers of the east say to avoid the visual visualization to empty your mind of visualization so it's a it is a path like it is a Catholic way and there's another school that says that we can use visualization but it's up to you and I think that you're probably in a situation where you should not double with visualization trauma I used to do it I used to do it it's up to you like I want to do with the Catholic Way you know exactly yeah you have to I got a little yeah so maybe imageless prayer is the best for you because I keep the future well I mean I think like for example I like to kiss religious objects that have been blessed like a crucifix rosary yeah even though I want to do like the old right blessings because what my father Bernard does he just does like blessed he's uh um sacramentals yeah you know they still work though because um I I remember one time I um I put the Rosary on my neck and then like it was like as of something left like a whole bunch of things up me like they were attached to my body it one hot let me it goes cool no I don't know it's on like all the time I want to look in the faith inside yeah we need to keep it very simple and free from any sort of superstition or anything like that and or any sort of self-reliance or anything but or any self love I I'm just noticing now our friend Nicola Chris ik is in the in the live chat and he's sending you love and prayers he's a really nice Catholic man and he's sending you some nice messages now just about how you've touched him with your testimony and so this this is Nicola Christic in the live chat you can see that once you watch the live stream when you play it back yep so just this is a shout-out to you Nicola thanks for watching thanks for being there god bless you love you thank you so what else are you excited about other than prayer the Saints God the church what's what other topics would you like to talk about like I know like I have a I have somewhat of a problem like buying a lot yeah yeah like I'll buy a rosary every chance I get yeah yeah been a bit of an obsessive personality type I can relate to that I'm gonna I'm very much like that myself so I can relate to that I'm probably on this spectrum it's just I've never been diagnosed with autism but a couple of my friends have suggested that I might be just because I have a laser focus but what about your dream life there's a lot of images a lot of demonic images that come to me in my dream life I'm praying to God to free me from that but what about your prayer your dream life can you talk a little bit about that if it's not too personal it's starting together like echoey okay do you have headphones oh yes plug them in and let's see if that helps okay the truth booth okay so we'll let him go ahead and do that I've been having audio problems ever since Windows updated as I said I have to look into it might be partly on my side it might be partly on Jesse's site but he's hooking up some headphones now I can see I'll see if it that improves the situation hear me yeah that sounds better actually I can't see your eyes though and down a little bit or raise your device up is it equity is it that we know can you hear me oh no yeah good okay so I have a lot of demonic dreams even now even though I've been 10 years of Catholic talk to me a little bit about your dreams oh are you self nightmares but I never have nightmares now like I never like it's like no nightmares good and even if there is it's something like I'm like okay nothing very scares me more I'm just like okay I usually laugh it's like scary movie it's like oh like it so it's like so cool died on Magnus's I used to have them and I would wake up screaming like especially was the goose most fast I remember one time like I I jumped about the goose bumps math and my parents had to get all the Goosebumps books out of how scoffs I mean sister had uh it was um I have like honestly horns like the the soul spirit spouses and succubi and thought it was like I could say sexual genes they're not trying to be weird or anything but like Gary's name's yeah that happened before um I had a dream about Hecate you know she is I guess a cotton who no no I'm coming like demonic dreams like the new image Oh had to take to take a goddess of witchcraft and well I and I had a dream about her at one time and one gene for and juice which now I know that those demons trying to think what else I think those are the only ones have you had any good Holy Catholic dreams about peace or being walking through a church or anything like that actually I've had one where um actually I was on my old campus and Christopher's there's multiple locations but I had a dream where I was on a bus and one of my staff was there and I could tell was an angel after I woke up and it was like oh going to be okay God's going to make away my missing days I wasn't even covered to Catholic yet I was like somewhat Provost it somewhat Catholic because I would try Protestant pears but then I'll hold the rosary sometimes or because I when I was on my old campus I wasn't allowed to soceity because of things I did in the past because I was like do which class woman Rosalie and whatnot I'll try to combine it to which my parents said I did no but I say I don't know because I didn't have a Bible or anything I had like I'd even see any passages until later about like know doing witchcraft or sorcery you yeah they stopped that and I had a hard time at that because I really didn't like that - did that because they I would say that I'm trying to change and do differentiate the ways I'm supposed to but they weren't really having it right when I got here in committee options I was allowed to do it because they saw that I was changing and a lot of things in the what's called up like the childcare plan wasn't like it's not the same as it was before like they're still seeing changes how often do you see your priest and your RCIA group every week okay and how many people are in your RCA group two or three nice and so I would imagine everyone's sharing a little bit about their journey into the church are they similar to your own journey or very different very different they're they don't have like the witchcraft thing they're more like other things yeah I'm trying in Pennsylvania like that like oh really something with Muslim I don't know okay okay very exciting well we're happy to have you in the church we're happy to welcome you into the church and you said that it was April 11th yep is that I have a I have a right of election on March 1st nice I'll go up st. Patrick's Day that's one for HP and I might even look at st. Patrick's where Bishop Fulton sheen was stationed I think so do you know him I know Timothy Dolan yeah so are the Archbishop of New York he's cool he's good I I haven't met him by feegan or my funny thanks I've always wanted me in face to face and just you know nice what do you think of our Holy Father The Vicar of Christ Pope Francis what do you think of him as a man and as I'm told yeah I've heard things about him like staying that plague he did things like but I don't really believe that he did that I just know that we're all human beings I say it's kind of like when he shot the woman can jiminy forgave her yeah and the thing is I'm kind of glad that they um like days they didn't do the Miss thing and Amazon because I like celibacy because like for me it when they can be sent to be married at the priest unless like a certain circumstance just like out of the church says about it I'm not trying to like hate on anybody or anything because I know like we're not supposed to hate people were supposed to love yeah and show love to them no matter who they are yeah um Pope Francis I heard these things about like idols that they did with the Amazon Senate and whatnot I don't know what to say about that just just know that Pope Francis is Catholic he doesn't worship idols we have to give the Holy Father the benefit of the doubt that he is Catholic that everything he teaches is in continuity with tradition that he's not breaking with tradition ever we have to give him that benefit of the doubt if we're going to be Catholic and I want to warn you if you're entering into the Catholic Church it's a it's a really messy and ugly world in the church because there are wolves in sheep's clothing those who claim to be more Catholic than the Pope yeah they're going to criticize the Pope they're going to be talking about how they have the truth they have the true way they have the true church and that those who follow Pope Francis are liberal or they're progressive or they're communist or they're you know it's there's a lot of hatred in the church so you have to be aware when you come into the church be aware to hear a lot of confusing dissident voices within the church and there are good Catholics who are peaceful calm and submissive and obedient and then there are rebels who want to stir things up create descend and with hatred and anger and everything else okay like I've heard of like people raising their arms during our Father and I'm not really a fan of that I don't know where they got that from but like I heard that you're not supposed to do it okay oh you know just beware beware the most I don't know beware I do want to make sure yeah but just be aware that there are people that seem very very Catholic but they're labeling themselves as traditionalists or conservatives just be aware that everything most of what they teach is good and wholesome and traditional but there's an underlying tendency to criticize Pope Francis there's an underlying tendency to demonize anyone that's not following their strict rigorous legalistic way and that the church is a mother she's very loving she's very generous she's very open and she gives us a lot of freedom of how we can worship how we can have devotions there's you know we need to have unity in essentials yes but we also need to have a healthy diversity in non essentials and we need to above all we need to have charity in all things so this is the prove the guiding principle and if you read the documents of Vatican 2 you'll see that Vatican 2 is a good and wholesome counsel of the church it's an ecumenical council and watch out please be aware of those who are so-called conservative Catholics or traditional Catholics they're good people and they have a lot of good things to offer but you need to be aware if they start denigrating the Holy Father if they start denigrating the new mosque the Novus Ordo mass you just need to be really cautious about that because our church is a very open and generous and loving mother she gives us a lot of freedom and it's not a legalistic rigorous t'k Church it's it's it's a Church of peace and love and of diversity and there's no antagonism in the bosom of Mother Church ok mm-hmm Varian also on I know like some people they say oh you can't receive in the hand or you're supposed to receive as a Tom yeah those are the traditional traditional Catholics they're lovely people most of what they teach is true but we are allowed we I have the permission by my bishop to receive in the hand I've only ever received in the hand here in Quebec it's the norm and I would prefer to receive on the tongue but that's not the that's not the situation here the bishop has given permission to receive in the hand that's how I've always done it that's how I entered into the church and I'm not going to cause a stink and to press for something something old-school more traditional even though I think I agree it's better but that's not what's happening in the church right now and like a ship is a good bishop what about like kneeling if I when I get the Eucharist or when I get the Eucharist I want a meal and then take the you could do that you can receive on the tongue if a priest Rafi if it priests refuses to give you the communion on the tongue when you're kneeling that priest has a problem okay you need to change changes or talk to the priest but some priests don't like some people some priests are very left and they're on the left and they're too liberal and you have to be aware of both sides the right and the left so I've certainly met a lot more priests that are way word on the left and I have met priests here in Montreal who are wayward on the right but on the internet I meet a lot of so-called traditional Catholics and conservative Catholics who are straying also from Jesus Christ they're straying from the center because they're critical of the church they're critical of the Holy Father the Vicar of Christ and they're stirring dissension so you have to be aware of those on the left and those on the right but I can always you can always reach out to me if you're having confusion in your particular parish or church that you attend Mass let me know because there are some things that are unacceptable there are other things that you just need to tolerate I know thing I do I know one thing I do like I said I do you know when say uh show your hand for a sign it's Keith it's like that and I usually I shake hands first for people but then if I can't read them and I do the peace sign you know which peace sign is on show me rip them no I don't know if that's good don't do that no do you can what I do is I just do a little nod like that like like a wave you can do like just a wave open hand but I would not recommend this okay yeah no I usually do it no but that's something like I mean there's there there's an abuse in the in that section of the mass usually a lot of people go up and down the aisle shaking everyone's hand and kissing everyone and making a big production I'm very uncomfortable with that but that happens at some parishes but I just prefer to just give a simple acknowledgement or if I'm very close then maybe a handshake okay so don't I go to the other side of the aisle today I don't I mean there's some parishes that's the norm but I'm personally on I comfortable you need to be you need to find a church where you're comfortable with the practices right mmm so whatever you're comfortable with and like I said Mother Church is a mother she's open and she's not gonna chastise you for expressing your love of neighbor in that way just do it you're comfortable with mm-hmm I see so is there anything else you want to talk about we're approaching 45 minutes here what sort of topics have we not touched on yet we touched a little bit on prayer what about the sacraments I want to talk about the sacrament of reconciliation or confession very exciting very very exciting have you done it yet and are you poor are you but I wasn't sure if I was baptized ok Neos baptized right so like I went in a doc confession but I didn't really feel that much I just felt happy that I was well nothing my dad was like oh one day I am baptized one day and not wha right but are you looking forward to confessing your sins in the future on a regular basis and unburdening yourself in that way yes I am and also it's the priesthood is right for me I would really want to like session yeah have I got like what I have to do I'm gonna try to like open up more because I kind of like I'm shy sometimes something I know tight alike beak morning like advocate for myself and you know be comfortable talking you know well you're doing a good job here very impressed with your openness and your ability to communicate and your intelligence because you you've obviously gone through a lot with your journey into Catholicism and a little bit of back and forth with the New Age and with Wicca and everything else and you obviously you're being guided you're allowing yourself to be guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth and it's such it's such like I said it's such a rich treasury of truth that you'll hold your whole lifetime is not enough to really explore all the goods and all the treasures of the church but at least you're entering in and you're excited about it and you're gonna discover more and more and more I wanted to ask you if you've heard of Saint John Vianney the curators he's left I have famous priests when I came John Vianney I forgot how he looked like my personally I think he's the greatest hair nothing I forgot yeah I've heard this music I think he's like the same piece yep I'm like that yeah exactly so do you like the parlament waiting yeah I think he had sort of like straight hair balding head straight hair like Jim Bob but do you have do you have a capacity for memorizing a lot of facts because of your autism I do yes why come for like what I like I can learn a lot it's like my stepmom she says I absorb information like this one just yeah I'm really doing information Wow there's a Catholic game called st. cards that has all the same not all the Saints but a lot of the Saints on little cards and I got it for Christmas and it's beautiful there are many many saints on these cards and there are little factoids about when they were born which century they were born which century they died and what they're the patron saint of if the patron saint of anything or if they were apostle or if they were a virgin or if there were member of a religious order if they were a priest different facts like that just the context of their lives is really it's an interesting way to augment your prayer life and your devotion to the Saints but it's something that you could dig into the lives of the saints so rich and so many lives the young idle age people old people everyone in between who who are some of your favorite Saints if you were to name sort of the top three or four all right um 10:15 Alaska finked arrived of the through the mill our nice Benedict um st. john paul ii 3 Patrick Patrick here yeah nice st. Jude Jude arias yeah and thoughts of Virgin Mary she's one of them because she's also singing but the highest thing you can be have you read bits of st. Faustina's Diaries I started reading it it's good I like it yeah it's very good very good and Saint Benedict he's very good for chasing away the demons - have you got the metal I have it metal actually on here on my bag thing oh I had my rosary I had all bunch of those really it's always a fit on your person ah you keep that on your person I do yes thanks have used it my staff my they have staff I know like some of them they don't like that like okay I am looking up stuff like playing well you know I usually play sometimes on them and they have like on like a Peter I usually search up the rosary or something and I play it again I got the rec center sometimes thanks have you got friends there in the facility where you're living now yes my friend Harrison uh he's Jewish he actually has a YouTube channel on her reversing Gottfried arm he does my transformers and you know the even my other cottage he's another resident running indeed and living building thing seems to me the yeah he's one of my best friends um he's Jewish but um we play video games that no thanks and so we were talking a little bit before the interview and you mentioned how you have respect for Judaism have you learned a lot about Judaism before the Messiah came like the age of Judaism before Jesus time are not so much not really about willing to learn because like I I know a Judaism is kind of like a older version that you've got one saying is uh like Jesus huge Jewish in a sense right yep think of the truth yeah he was raised that way you know they are the chosen people there that people chosen by God right so you know what's cool another reason why I decided to not do a new age is because basically if you look in the Bible all the gods that tried to like do stuff God to feed it them yes Egyptian of all I think the fire rain from the sky a short time become disease so something happens you said you looked at uh I think if that could be where's my dad Mondo's um chromatic - but uh there's the Israelites the Greeks took them over and they tried to do things and God wasn't having that so he saved mm-hmm it's so cool it shows how powerful God is and how really is and how he's there to protect you no matter what I don't never give you anything you know mm-hmm have you got favorite passages or verses in the Bible that often come to mind in different circumstances in your in your conversion John 3:16 um of the world yep Philippians I could do all things through Christ who strengthens me I think it's psalm 119 a light a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path I forgot the other one there's another ask and you shall ask and you shall receive yeah asking yourself if I'm I'm not going to be open to you means amazing amazing if you if you look at the Old Testament patriarchs you know we have any bruh ham we have al way to point the way to Jesus do you do you have favorites among the patriarchs Moses or Noah or David or do you have favorites among the way they really gave it it is pretty cool I like how it gave it is um Samson is okay it's just probably because of the strength the Angels I like a part where the angel weather where this pagan general he tried to like do something to issue like army and the angel came into more than a and destroyed them and then they woke up and saw like all the dead body oh wow whose big one just one and you should do that very well whatever women any women in the Bible come to mind hmm I I started like I usually watch this show even though it's like college date super book pick the kids show but like they they really do a good job at reliable in their way like the animation stuff like as well as a in school what's another one not many other one not only yeah you can get familiar with them as he read and study the Old Testament there are quite a few women and it's very colorful colorful stories in the Old Testament and in the new there was a statement by our friend nickel in the in the live chat he said something about the real presence in the Eucharist can you comment on the real presence in the Eucharist did you have any problem believing and then real presence on the yelling I never had a problem with like it's clearly him and I watched I've seen pictures of like the miracles and blood comes up and like you see his face on it sometimes and also it was cool I like seeing those pictures there shows that he got you there and I'm pretty I'm hoping that like I I'm pretty sure that he'll Jesus will probably help me feel him in me when I received youth with something maybe a tingle or something yeah you don't need to feel anything you just need to have faith this is the period of time where we're being trained in faith we're not being showered with feelings good feelings and magical feelings okay yeah so don't expect that but if you get a tear in your eye once in a while or you get your hair standing on end or if you get a feeling of peace and calm that's about it thank God for that but if you don't thank God for that to always thank God because even if even if you don't feel on anything there's still an effect maybe if you don't feel but still there exactly yeah yeah so we're gonna wrap up now I like my guests to leave the final thought something positive something uplifting something edifying just speak from your heart Jesse as you always do and leave us with a nice positive thought place if like you're struggling like aanenson or with problems God is always there even if there's not a way he will make a way there's there's always a way that he'll made that you you can find and you'll reach to where you want you to be now if you are like tormented by a devil or anything just know God already defeated him on the cross and that it was power and whatnot that's nothing in compared to God the devil has only a grain of sand while God is a whole cosmos barely anything God can just blink his eyes and make anything happen he's that powerful like he can just cause like stars to appear just by walking or even like this is simple action and something that happened and if you don't feel him he'll he'll open himself up to you you just have to be willing the sacraments they actually help as um you you'll see they're SEC and they're helped you on your way even if you don't do that that's like we're just saying like even if you don't do Blessed Virgin Mary she is a great help Buddhism although she cares for children ever since Jesus gave her pajama on to us oh the angels are always there umm they always are there to help even if you say that angel of God of my guardian gear dark hair is always good um mmm-hmm the rosary is really good the Ford that can crush the enemy like I remember like dis compliment Scala saying how I put the Rosary on my neck and feeling some demons they left those really powerful feeling showed the power that Mary or got the work through even the smallest things to make a big impact amazing thank you so much Jessi it's a real pleasure to me you're a joy and ray of sunshine you're a ray of sunshine in this dark dark dark dark and confused world we need more people like you young people who are on fire for the faith young people who have wrestled with the demons young people who have decided to choose life because that's when it comes down to basically we can choose life or not and it's not a complicated situation we just need to - no matter what no matter what anybody thinks God always he always will be on your side amen brother thank you so much we'll talk soon keep in touch okay mmm god bless you you kiddo and all of you out there who are kiddo and all of you out there who are welcome thank you very much bye

CVS Live Guest - 2020-02-22 - Aidan Lisney

so we are live I'm here with Aidan Aidan Liz Nate how are you doing setup how are you I'm doing well I I just got through doing one interview now I'm happy to be talking to an old friend you've been on a couple times I've still got another one or two of yours in the can that I need to edit at some point but always nice to talk to you and today it's a special pleasure I get to actually see your face for the first time am I not supposed to see yours you can't see me because my broadcasting software dominates my camera and will not share with any other software at least to the best of my understanding so that's climbing with that that's fine I don't need to see you'll see enough for me believe me you'll see enough of me with these if you watch it if you watch your brother Matthew I do i watch Matthew Murdock i watch my brother mm-hmm I just started watching your other video too that you just released gave me the highlights of that one quickly did what it was yeah his brother-in-law his sister's husband is I think a fairly new addition to the family and he's a Catholic so Steven alleged out to me and he said hey I'd like to chat to you about Christianity in general but also about Catholicism in particular because he's new to Catholicism he doesn't know much about it and of course being raised in the Bible Belt Mississippi is in the Bible Belt correct sure yeah I don't know I I don't um I guess it's the mason-dixon line is what they would consider like the cutoff right I don't know you don't know a minute why would you know I'm not alone but anyway so he just grilled me with questions about Mary and the Pope and tradition and this sort of thing and I retorted with my usual where did you get your can and where did you get your Bible and you know many things you believe are based on tradition too bla bla bla bla bla he seemed from what I saw because I got about 20 minutes of it he seemed to actually actively listen to you which was you know really cool to see that because I don't actively listen to people well you put your mirror away that's good I appreciate that for the interview I try but so what sorts of things have been on your mind I always like to sort of dig into the Leslie brothers Minds is it one mind or do you have to separate minds it's funny you say that I would probably be the codependent person that would say we have two minds and he would probably be like yeah he's cool but because I usually call him up when I want advice on something and then it's basically like like having this large room and then I expanded upon the room whenever I call Kieren because he can see things very similarly to how I see them but then you know turn the perspective a little bit and to a different into a different direction that I wouldn't have taken myself naturally but still feels very comfortable for me because it's um there's like that that gap being bridged by by him and us you know sharing a bedroom for 1415 years hmm have you read each other's minds in a way that would impress anyone an objective third party no it just irritates people it's um because it's just like a whole bunch of inside jokes that are obnoxious and and you start exposing your crinkling your oh I'm sorry my cat's toy I don't kiss like plenty of that no it's just all noxious stuff the most that we would ever do is I don't know sit in a restaurant together with a group of people and then everybody around that little nucleus is just mildly irritated that we sat near one another mm-hmm I have two sisters well I have three one of them died at childbirth but my parents adopted a child not really to replace the one who passed away but you know to sort of feel a void and in memory of the one who passed away and and then I have another sister my eldest sister I'm the little baby but I'm very close with my blood sister I'm close with bullit there's a sort of a psychic connection with my blood sister and we spent all three of us spent a lot of time in close proximity growing up and I have read my blood sisters mind at least once and a close friend growing up we've known each other since the age of you know less than one year old and we're very close I have also read his mind on one occasion now that is that controlled or is that just gifted does that just like random where you just all of a sudden you know is that your voice or is it his voice or their voice that you hear in in the case of my sister it was a simultaneous utterance of the exact same phrase word-for-word simultaneously in a very random and unpredictable phrase that came out of both of our mouths in the middle of a conversation which I school which made no connection with anything in any context ever the other one was even more impressive with my best friend growing up when we were teenagers he was at university and I was a dropout and we were hanging out I think we may have lived together I'm not sure but you might have we just did a little psychic game like pick a number you know between 1 and X and I'll try to guess what it is and I don't know why this came up mmm but he picked a number and I just looked at him in his face in his eye one of his eyes got big in my field of vision and within the iris of his eye was the number of 3 and immediately I said 3 he said yeah how did you know and I said it was in your eye so creepy pretty freaky so weird so people do have connections really deep connections especially I think if you are in early childhood you're exposed to this person and maybe you're under some sort of stress there are different stresses that children can undergo because of family situations or financial situations of the parent or whatever we the kids don't know what's going on right but they can already sense the stress and I think this brings out a sort of sensitivity in children so if they're in close proximity I think they can bond in a way that's spiritual and it sounds very flaky but I've experienced it firsthand no it's um there's definitely something there there's definitely so you know I joke that it would be you know it's irritating to other people but I had a dream a couple weeks ago or maybe a month ago and it was Kieran Zak and I and we were in this grocery store but it was like more like a house and we were we were going through these rooms together with a shopping cart and the rooms were made of cinder block and they were grimy but they were completely empty and I had the feeling that I should be scared of these rooms for one reason or another because there was this like leftover almost like evil feeling and but I I didn't I was kind of brazen about it and I woke up from the dream and went him to Mass it was a Sunday and told my dad about it and I realized oh that was um that was like a manifestation of the the interior rooms you know inside of me and the gift that prayer has given me to be able to clean them out of all their junk and obviously they're not by any means I'm completely clear of all that baggage but they're definitely there's there's nothing physically in them anymore and I thought it was also funny that internally I wanted to take Zak and Kieran along with me to see them Zak is your child knows that Zak is my brother well he's my other brother or stepbrother if you will third brother I've kidding about him yeah yeah he's he's a cool dude man I like him yeah he's he's he's the the more gentle of the three and probably more brilliant in a lot of ways then then then Kieran my wife makes fun of me because I had this dream years ago about an unholy trinity it was Dave Dave and Dave there were three of me and I had a whale of a time I had a whale of a time just interacting with the two other twins or triplets and yeah she thinks I'm very narcissistic and self-absorbed and I guess I am but I really enjoyed that dream I mean that's that's what we do though isn't it we make ourselves God so that yeah that makes sense I can say that what you do in the dream or email it can you not discuss it it's more or less just the when you meet a beautiful woman and you're just absorbed by the beauty I'm not saying I'm beautiful but that's sort of the the thing you're just fascinated with this creature like wow what is this person you know and I totally you uh you get very poetic when you talk about your wife I enjoy hearing about that no have you always been able to speak in those terms yeah I mean I'm just a natural romantic I love all people and I love you know obviously romantically interested in women in general I mean I'm attracted by women not to say I don't see the beauty in men like I'm not like one of these macho guys who says oh I can't tell if that guy's good-looking or not I can tell you know I could tell I could tell you I know are good-looking I was gonna say you told me that we are good-looking people and you're not lying with I could end up I could give you a number but I'm not gonna give you a number out of 10 because it would just I'm a hard six let's be real but David you are known for asking the hard-hitting questions so I'm gonna ask you a hard-hitting question sure who's who's better-looking okay all right what was your third brother's name again Zach that's a good way different is axe axe the best-looking where's the three of us yeah I don't have a brother but it would be fun to have that rivalry and that sort of playful roughhousing and all that sort of thing it's not the same with two sisters you know it's just not the same sort of energy but it might also get a little bit tiring might get tiring always sort of keeping up that friendly banter no uh yeah but it also gets physical too you can't get like you can't get too physical with your sisters cuz that just doesn't like fly after a certain certain age you know but Kieran and Zach are by far so they're just like so much stronger than me right and they don't work out at all they're just so like you know I like I'm probably the only one that's intentional with my body but they're just like freak strong and so every time we get together there's always something going on where Kieran has to jump on somebody or Kieran throws something at somebody that he shouldn't like one of them has like the nephew so you know the camaraderie between men is enjoyable and funny until Kieran throws a chunk of ice at an eight year olds head you know so you know you enjoy your sister's because it's probably a much more peaceful Christmas yeah there's a guy there's a guy at work that's always playing with my bun and on my hair and he's always there's another guy at work these are all Italians another guy love us whacking me in the stomach occasionally I don't walk me in the and I don't enjoy being touched by anyone you know anyone ever don't touch I know but they don't say anything I just I just let them do it and I just offered up for the conversion of sinners and the relief of the holy souls in purgatory that's uh that's really big for you man because I don't know if I could if I could take that I just I work with all women I work well there's two there's two dudes that I work with but one's a physician's assistant and the other is a surgeon I know I'm lying there's another surgeon there too so like it's not as low caliber nobody's punching each other in the sack it doesn't it just can't happen in that environment so but you you work with computers right well I'm in an office working on a computer but it's a construction office so it's all Italians and immigrants that are out on the field and then they come in and they clump me on the back or whack me in the good or like with my hair I find a little bit something strange yeah mm-hmm yeah dude so our Italian Kenneth our Italian Catholics are Italian Canadians like Italian Americans are they clarity's I would imagine they're all the same all Italians are yeah good stuff right there man ye mediterraneans you know Mediterraneans whether you're an Arab or Italian Greek they're they're warm-blooded people they're very how should I say a few suit like they express their emotions they touch you and they will get angry and that's why I love them because in my culture in Ontario Canada no one expresses themselves and it just turns into cancer and hatred and self-hatred and hatred of their friends and family and it's not it and nothing gets expressed so I much prefer the Mediterranean temperament where people can get angry and they can express themselves yeah I mean there's tons of stories about Padre Pio yelling at people like small children like he's like a famous saying there's a two-year-old that interrupted him during prayer and he like rebuked him severely and it's like dude it's a it's a small child that's horrible but I guess it's just you know the culture did you enjoy Mother Angelica she's Italian she was Italian or at least partly Italian um I don't think I watched too much she had the EWTN shows right yeah she founded that whole empire that whole network oh I didn't know she founded it um no you know I don't have too many connections to to her I'm really biased against holy women because why there's something like like like especially the Saints so like I don't know I'm trying not to be mean about it but I'm just like I don't know every time Todd if somebody talks about st. Theresa bliss ooh I get so bored I'm like okay like I get it she was she was really cool so I intentionally make myself like evoke her or ask for her assistance with certain stuff because just because I'm naturally deterred by it for some reason or another I don't know sister not sister but that was my piano teacher sister Joan of Arc oh go for Saint Joan of Arc is she real was she ever yeah okay okay learn about her and learn about some of the more manly women who are Saints because that might help you I okay and and who are the more manly ones then well I mean mother Angelica's pretty manly I think I think she's a saint to be a lot of a lot of the women were tough like I mean if I think about Old Testament women they all seem very you know handsome manly women to me that's the way I think of Old Testament women and that's what we look for in a woman is a handsome manly woman that's what I like that's my case to each his own ya know it's um you know the damsel in distress is boring yeah yes so I mean st. Teresa of ávila is somebody that I look up to and I think is really cool but again there's just something I think it's also in the artistic depictions of saints that things get really boring too lost in translation so especially in in depictions of Mother Mary I don't like them because they're so bland and milky and so you listen to anybody's description of her and they're like she was the most beautiful woman that I've ever seen and I have no mental schema for that whatsoever and then you go to an artist depiction of it and they're just they're so they're all so similar and so bland and it's you know it just doesn't do it any justice and the more you see it's just so oversaturated by these certain images and so I think that that treatment is kind of applied to a lot of the the female saints out there especially if you wear a habit and if you don't have any facial hair there's not too many distinguishing facial features that could make you stand out as a woman and so you know I seen I see them and I you know they all just look the same to me except for Saint Mary of Egypt she was but I mean again she was depicted as wrinkled and naked and she did not get a flattering portrayal by any means so someone in the live chat I'll leave it to your imagination to imagine who just said Aidan you're lame yeah that's good clever Karen and then it gave you a hurt so or maybe he was responding his heart to my heart but st. Catherine of Siena she was very tough and assertive and not some sort of shrinking violet she's another one but I agree with you about the porch the portraits or the portrayals of Our Lady often I'm cringing looking at these sculptures or paintings and I know they're not doing her justice and I've seen a couple that are very beautiful paintings in particular the sculptures I've seen a few that are very beautiful yes it's true but the same could be said of Jesus I'm not often impressed by the trails of Jesus in fine art yeah but there are some that are magnificent and you know we I think it stands to reason that we are not given too much of a foretaste of the beauty of Christ and His Saints here below right yeah I mean it makes sense it allows people to meet God where they're at because they can connect things with their childhood and with what they're familiar with so maybe they're familiar with something that I'm not familiar with it's kind of funny and I don't know if Karen deals with this ever I guess in the hesychast tradition you don't use your imagination for for most medit 'iv or prayer practices but when you know I pray the rosary I try to picture Jesus as best as I possibly can but when I was a kid my dad had long hair and he had a big beard and so I have this constant transfer of my dad's face onto Jesus and it's it's like it's it's such an annoying distraction because it's just like that's not Jesus everybody jokingly calls him Jesus but it's one of those things that I love the Shroud of turn images I love the artists renderings that like that drew over them I guess like the you know the still image rotoscope I think those are the coolest some of the coolest depictions of Jesus mmm just because they're like very rugged very manly but you know my dad looked really similar to that back in the day and so it's you know my mind constantly wants to project my father onto Jesus what is the mission Mara because parents asking where's mish Mara I think he's asking about my cat Marcia oh but my cat my cats usually downstairs with me but I don't know I don't know with it what so where do we segue from female saints that mildly annoy you not in their person not in their person but in their portrayal and in their pop culture sort of the way they're misrepresented possibly by some who gush maybe over the wrong parts and the wrong putting emphasis where it's not meant to be placed with respect to st. Therese disease you know for example may be missing some of the harder hitting teachings of that saint and maybe sugarcoating good much the same way that st. Francis of Assisi is misrepresented and saccharine portrayal all of the all the rough edges have been smoothed off over time right right basically Saints are just these walking calluses which is to me just it's so cool they're said they're just really tough human beings and so I don't know the transition sorry this is low caliber content it's like this st. irritates me it's a good job Aidan you're really high quality high quality programming right here no it's good to be honest I know and you know what it's always good because you know you sit there and sometimes you think these things and then other people share these thoughts too and you don't get to talk about it and especially when it comes to something that's you know in the realms of religion it's like am I allowed to say that I don't like this aspect of this or this bothers me or I can stomach this piece and yeah I mean the answer is yes totally because I love st. Theresa simplices approach to this as the soul as being a child and so whenever I approach our Lord I approach as a two or three year old and and I stole that I think that's just the coolest way to approach God as if you know I am little I am nothing and he's Papa he's dad and he's gonna take care of everything and all I have to do is just run to him and and all else will be provided for yeah so another strong woman is st. Faustina divine mercy yeah that's another one that's like painted a difficult color for me because I do like the Divine Mercy chaplet and I've picked up that book a couple times and I'm gonna read like a couple hundred pages of it and her you know her language is like whatever the scenes talk there is this real disconnect and Padre Pio has it too in his letters to his spiritual directors there it's just so far above me that it loses me at a certain point and I feel lost and it's this this very romantic discussion about God that I just I'm not at yet and perhaps I'm envious of so I have a limited attention span towards it yeah I can sympathize I I have difficulty with Saint John of the Cross and frankly with Saint Teresa of ávila I have a little bit of a hard time with her just digesting because a little bit too highbrow for me and I've said before in my podcast st. John Paul the second I have a hard time reading his stuff just cuz I find it a little bit too academic into a contemporary it just doesn't transport me the way some of the older Saints their writings just seem a little bit more romantic and crystallized in a timeless language that resonates with me whereas if I'm reading something that sounds like an academic paper it just turns me off right away that's funny that you say that because you read everything don't you well I mean I try I read a lot I try to read different stuff but I don't enjoy everything equally and this is one of the interesting things about the Saints is that we have misconceptions about the Saints and so like I'm fanatically obsessed with st. Augustine and st. Francis DeSales and Saint John Vianney a couple of they're both such cool dudes man Saint John Vianney I just read actually it's in my bathroom night right now it's the best way to read a book but my dad gave me the cure a DRS or whatever it is like his sayings and you're not supposed to read the book straight through you're supposed to meditate on it and I'm like this dude was brilliant he was so cool and so st. Francis DeSales they're just some some brilliant guys so I have I have some real work to do I have to pick up some of their actual pieces of literature and spend time with it because st. Francis DeSales did the introduction of the devout life right yeah and that's like the that's like a major piece of spiritual literature for laypeople I feel like I should have I should have jumped into that a long time ago yeah there's no rush I mean you'll get to it in this lifetime or if not you'll get to it hopefully in heaven right but I wanted to say something about the misconception of the Saints like the obsessive fan boy mentality that I have with some of the Saints I know that I'm probably mischaracterizing them in my mind like like you said you felt I had short curly red hair before you actually saw a picture of me yeah not that that's like relevant to anything but you do you do form impressions of people and they're usually wrong in significant ways and I just watched I had Netflix for one month and I watched a show called love is blind I've heard part of it and they don't get to see each other they just quote/unquote fall in love the text messages and stuff or no not technically they can hear each other's voices they talk okay well a glass wall and you know I'm sure the picturing each other in their minds and then they meet it's nothing like what they pictured but you can still have that love so I'm hoping that's the way it is with the Saints that even though I I misjudged them I mischaracterized them in many many many ways some of those ways being important ways there's still that true know that kernel of truth that I really and inspired by their love for God and their self-sacrifice so what do you think about that I I agree I don't see there being any real any real issue there just that that honest desire to understand who somebody is all the other stuff will just correct itself but hearing about the last time we spoke or maybe I'm just putting myself on whoever you were speaking to but you were talking about how wrong we often are and I found real freedom in that you're like I we're literally wrong about like 99% of the things that we do in our life and and I'm like oh yeah and that's why silence is so important like shutting my mouth and listening to other human beings for you know a little bit because it gives me a chance to at least not you know reveal how wrong I am about everything and so you know with the Saints who are already experiencing the beatific vision I'm sure that that you know they'll gift us some kernel of the truth and by the time that we get to meet them all the other stuff will be you know rectified fixed and you know won't really make a difference there's that famous expression to know me is to love me I wouldn't apply that to myself well yeah I would apply that to myself too if you the more you know me that more you love me I think it's true of every every one of God's creatures but it doesn't mean you want to follow their example right like Satan is ontologically good and we we love Him because God loves him but we don't want to follow his example as bad example obviously we might want to imitate his pre-fall beauty and you know his intellect and all those sorts of things but to know me is to love me this idea applies to the Saints because they are examples that we should strive to imitate and of course Christ being the saint of saints we are supposed to strive to imitate Christ and to know Christ is to love him and so we strive to get to know him through the scriptures through tradition through the church and as st. Teresa of Calcutta would say through the poor and the suffering and the marginalized right yeah I mean so one of the promises of the rosary is a perfect knowledge of Jesus Christ and so like does that mean experiential knowledge or does that mean like knowledge knowledge you know just you can read it from a book or does that mean like like st. Therese like I guess experiential we fall into st. Theresa's realm of seeing through the poor what do you think about that well what comes to mind is knowledge in the biblical sense right that marital intimacy right the consummation of our love he is our spouse and I've never quite understood as a man as a man in the church a Catholic man I know the priest is a Vicar of Christ and then the church is the Bride of Christ and if you're a female and you take vows religious vows you become the Bride of Christ but as a lay male Catholic mi also dispose of Christ or am I the Vicar of Christ I prefer to be the spouse of Christ even though it sounds you know like some sort of same-sex attraction right but I prefer that role I want to be loved by him I want to give myself to him passively I don't want to be the Vicar of Christ I don't feel up to the challenge but maybe that's just my passive you know psychological impediment what do you say I would say that it's a passive love that's that would embody being a spouse so I would use the word bride - yeah I mean the Bible constantly refers to God as him and so obviously God acts and then we receive or we can react I guess if we're just you know bad at being a human which I am so I react all the time but obviously God is an overarching masculine presence and so whether or not we're male or female when it comes to a relationship with God we have a feminine receptivity towards him and so I would say that's espousal and them in a bridal sense I'm cool with that yeah I've always made this is a public confession I'm not shy to admit it but I've always shunned responsibility and there's a certain manliness about taking responsibility being a leader being the head of the family these sorts of things I've always shied away from that and that's part of the reason probably I don't have children and my wife didn't want any but I didn't insist and I mean can't force that sort of thing anyway but you know there's always been a negative responsibility and a fear I guess of taking responsibility if I have two paths ahead of me one of which is passive and I can avoid responsibility the other one is a struggle and I have to take on responsibilities I'll always go with the passive one that evades responsibilities so just more of a psychological confession here but I wanted to bounce it off you and sort of get your thoughts on that well Kieran said it in the interview that he had with him a couple days ago that we the the Lizzie men are all kind of like in that camp of I guess he didn't actually state it was masculine or feminine but I would say that we have a kind of more feminine way about us and so where we can be passionate and angry but we're also very sensitive human beings and and so you know as a result I I'm probably more like you you know where I would rather not have conflict and I'd rather not like have to step up and do things and there are certain times when I do have to do that and I fail miserably and then there are other times when I just avoid it and fail even harder so life is hard my life sucks at times as soon as you said that you took viewer in that camp I was just thinking you should just buy a gun battle me that'll turn you into a man yeah yeah well I mean I take consolation in the fact that God loves me as I am and it's you know baby steps all the way for me in terms of shouldering of just a little bit more responsibility as time goes on but yeah I certainly don't beat myself up about it but we each have our strengths and weaknesses I guess yeah yeah it's true I mean you it's so cheesy but you know just make the next right choice basically and that's all you can really do I get bummed out my wife is in charge of the banking and I don't know why I've like arbitrarily assigned that is like a masculine trait like it's gotta like you better you better know your finances but my wife's the one that's like you know we don't have money to do that right and I'm like oh okay I gotcha and it's like a maybe you should be more like participatory in this because that's a big deal and then I'm like yeah or I could just avoid the problem and hope that it goes away you know so my testosterone was like soaring through the roof here I feel so manly now talking to you you should you should my friend good I might have facial hair and then wear plaid but I'm terrified child how old are you again 29 okay yeah yeah I'm 49 so I got 20 years of more I should really be a lot further along the path to manhood than I am I consider myself to have become a a man I left adolescence I'm aged 39 so you're well ahead of me we'll see yeah I run from a lot of things we can we dude I get free I get afraid to answer my voicemail I'm like I hear my phone rang and I'm like somebody's dead better ignore my phone it's like Aidan that's a terrible instinct stop and stop that that's like it's fine it's probably just a bill collector so you you told me that you're of English descent do you have any Irish and Scottish in there or no yeah we're super Irish - actually um so my grandmother's dad was from Ireland and so when he married her mom it was scandalous because it was an Irish English English marriage so that was a you know I was a big deal back in the day but he died actually when he was 29 years old so but we have you know a pretty extensive Irish heritage because of her family the reason I'm asking you it well I mean it's nice to know anyway but one of my characteristics is that I'm very very passive and peaceful and avoid confrontation avoid responsibility and everything like that until I'm in confrontation mode and I love fighting I love arguing I love I love rising up and having that sort of indomitable indomina to both spirit however you pronounce that we're the Scottish and Irish pride comes out and I'm able to stand my ground on principle and it's always based on principle when it comes to non principle based confrontations I could care less right I'll just cave cave cave cave cave cave and then when there's a principal on the line then that fiery side comes out and I've been in circumstances where people thought they knew me and I thought I was a doormat and a pushover until a principal was on the line and then suddenly they saw a lot of fire he's that the case with you uh because he have a similar heritage to me it doesn't work in the same manner so like you and I have different things that would probably trigger us yours would be a principal and mine would be like somebody says something personal loyalty so like yeah so like they're like I have like a like I have a tipping point with certain with certain things and being once really overweight I have this natural capacity to look at people and like find a weakness and then just go for the weakness as hard as possible and so because of that you know like look their gait their dad abused them when they were a child like that I have to constantly like reject that that that instinct so it has to be really it has to be massively offensive for me to respond to something now or somebody has to draw a conclusion conclusion illogically and it has to be dangerous so like if somebody like gets from point A to point Z and they do it in a way that that I feel good later on down the road lead to something dangerous then I'm gonna I'm gonna speak up and say something because it's just so irritating it's I don't know why I'm not an overly analytical complex person but like when I see things that don't add up and people are just more than okay with that it really bugs me are you able to give one example a colorful example that won't get you into trouble nope sounds sounds I see no you know no because I'm still like battling things so like when you work in an office there are certain things that are off limits like any kind of confrontation is off limits but right now I'm dealing with so that we have some co-workers that like to use the Lord's name in vain and they're just they're so aggressive and it's so it's such a pervasive issue and that's one of those issues where you don't I don't want to like make I don't want to make somebody feel stupid for using a blasphemy because it just doesn't mean the same thing to them and not only that but I don't I don't think that's what Jesus would do he wouldn't have made somebody feel dumb for doing something perhaps if they were a fair ascetical different story but like I don't want any like get off on making somebody feel bad about themselves but it often makes me wonder why you know our Lord's name is used in vain but no other God has ever taken in vain then we live in such a politically correct nation so like but but you you can hear Jesus all the time in the workplace and nobody would say anything nobody would think twice about it but you don't you would never hear Mohammed you never hear Buddha you would never hear Krishna and you you would just not hear it so I want to know why we're so targeted to me in my mind it there is no there's no good reasoning for that that's still allowed at such a pervade in such a pervasive manager occur yeah it happens at my work too I'm not gonna name any names obviously but I I tend not to get riled up about that I like hearing the name of Jesus in any context as long as the name Jesus is preached whether rightly or wrongly truly or falsely but I pray for the you know I pray for the conversion of those who don't understand who and what Jesus is and obviously it does wound me but it winds me not so much because this person is ignorant but because I am ignorant and I was so ignorant during most of my life and that I have blessed him so much it's sort of like a reminder a mirror mirror back to me of my own blasphemies that are so numerous in the past and even today I don't think I'm revering the name of the Lord as I should or revering the Sabbath as I should or doing anything as I should you know so it's sort of a reminder the the shortcomings of others are a mirror back to me I'm sure you do the same thing I try I try to be as gracious as I possibly can because I've been incredibly blasphemous in the past but my anger doesn't even necessarily rise from the fact that they're using the Lord's name in vain I mean there is there's anger about that but it's just the fact that it's an exclusive thing and so we live in a culture that tells you that certain things are just outright Aust limits and there's no there's no budging on it and certain things that are I don't agree with and so I often wonder I I know the reasons why I just think i