CVS Live Guest - 2022-12-17 - Rebekah Davis

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It's been a while since we talked, so I invited Rebekah back. We talked about the joy of being Christian and the assurance and security that we can have in Christ. We ended the discussion by talking about some of the Dogmas of the Church, including Mariological Dogmas. God is good. ?


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and we are live I'm here with Rebecca Rebecca how are you doing great glad to be here David thanks for having me on yeah very nice to see you as always and it's been a while since we've chatted and you took a little break do you want to start by talking about the break why'd you take the break how long ago was it and are you back and what have you done and all that yeah about about mid-september I just had a feeling that I needed to stop and I didn't know if it was going to be permanent or temporary um so I I just completely stopped my channel and now I feel like it's time to start back up I'm going to be changing direction a little bit before I really had a lot of content focused on talking with atheists now I still have some atheists that are going to come on the channel but my focus is going to turn away from that I want it to be a better spiritual environment where I can help people who are either seeking um and or Christians who have questions about things or need prayer so I plan on doing eventually um get doing what's what I like to call the faith hospital and I've done this in the past but I want to do it again uh just where I'm just available online streaming and then if people need prayer for things um it'll just be a you know place where people can come and ask for prayer and where we Will Worship the Lord and just talk about things that glorify God cool um I've never asked you this before but maybe uh or maybe I haven't just forgotten but if so remind me uh some of the highlights of people you've met in particular Christians who share your faith or maybe uh pointed out things to you that you'd forgotten about in your faith walk or just sort of inspired you and upbuilt you because you're trying to upbuild others but I'm just wondering if you met others along the way that built you up that you've had on your show oh definitely um and you know I I learned things from lots of people so um I enjoyed having you on I've enjoyed having a lot of people on and I feel like we we learn from each other uh I would say for me the most inspiring person that I have known personally is someone who's been on my channel three times her name is Mary splain she is 93 years old and I met her when she was about 70. and she was just an amazing spiritual Mentor for me at that time I used to go to her house regularly for prayer meetings she would have sometimes all night prayer meetings and it was just so wonderful um she's just unlike uh any other Christian that I've ever met in her closeness with the Lord every time you're with her you've you feel like you're you're not just with her but there's a real tangible presence of the Lord she was the first person that I ever felt the presence of the Lord on her physically like um I she the first time I ever met her she gave me a hug and there was something so different about that hug it was just I felt uh you know just a a wonderful love and and presence of the Lord in her hug and so I've since experienced that from other people but she was the first person that I ever experienced that with and I just she just has amazing uh things to share and her life hasn't been easy she has uh and she actually didn't come to know the Lord until she was in her late 40s she has 10 kids and she she was raised in the Catholic church but not she but she wasn't um a True Believer she was just a church goer and the Lord appeared to her one night and it totally changed her life and so that's you know where she's gone from that yeah yeah I seem to recall you have mentioned her uh to me at least once before because uh when you mentioned her age it's like oh yeah you did mention her to be to me before so that's interesting so she has 10 kids and how are her kids doing for the most part I don't know where all 10 kids are or anything but I am I I am in contact with one of her daughters but of course by the time I got to know her she was already 70 so you know she didn't have any kids living with her they were all grown and uh and had moved to other places so yeah uh my friend play Chris is in the live chat he's often here he's a good friend of mine I met him a couple of years ago probably four years ago he was at that time uh either a Satanist or just coming out of his Satanist period and uh I'll have to interview him again soon pikris just reach out to me we'll do another interview so I can catch up on on your journey there but I know he's got some Methodist uh Roots if I'm not mistaken or he's interested in maybe the Methodist thing but I'm not sure exactly where he's at might be agnostic about God and religion but we'll definitely have pie crust back on but uh what is the Methodist uh denominational about really is there a method to the Methodist approach yes yes yes but I'm sure it's changed over time but but it you know it started with John Wesley oh okay and you know John Wesley uh he had established this group that had a particular way of worshiping and a particular style of prayer and everything that they did okay and so that was where that originated I'm I'm certain that it's changed dramatically over the years but yeah but yeah uh okay have you Incorporated any of those methods or techniques into your uh daily walk with God oh I'm not a Methodist I know I know but they might have some good tips and tricks I don't know if I tell the truth I'm not a huge John Wesley fan um but but I mean I I've read some about his life I've read you know a biography of John Wesley but you know there I I suppose I've never been that much of a you know Methodist I never never got really into methodism but I've been I've visited Methodist churches before and you know all is fine and good okay yeah I have no idea I have no idea really what it would what a church would look like is it Bare Bones are they high Church low Church uh music do they do some sort of spiritual communion like I don't know I don't know what they do so I have no idea they're sort of like middle of the road not high church but but they do have like a you know some set practices that never change you know they always sing the doxology they um you know they're they're they have some set ways of doing things but it's not extremely liturgical it is somewhat liturgical well pikris is saying it was technically an offshoot of the Anglican Church which is uh interesting because they've got high-end low uh Church in the that's a that's a very interesting interesting tradition do you know about the uh book of prayer or whatever they have common book of prayer and all these things yeah pretty beautiful set of prayers and writings no of common prayer but I have used it occasionally and you know I don't know if I agree with everything that's in it but you know I definitely think it's a useful uh it's useful for Christian practice it's probably closer to my church than to your way right probably yeah I'm I'm not high churchy but I do like liturgy it's not that I don't like liturgy I do I like liturgy and I like you know everything else uh involving worship of Jesus Christ so you said you said you took a full month off or was it more um it was more almost like three months okay because I just started back up a few days ago so okay in three months so I'm wondering uh taking a break did you get into introvert mode and uh focus on certain aspects of your walk with God that you made progress in or was it just a in consequence inconsequential break from the internet during that God and able to read the Bible without uh the need to communicate anything like without um like without the intention of relaying what I had read but just the intention of absorbing it myself right right and that's actually I would say that happened I for a while I haven't been able to read the Bible and just glean from it myself but I was able to do that and and I did try to establish a regular time of prayer with the Lord and I wasn't always successful of doing everything that I intended to do but I did I did feel like it was a nice break to reconnect with God but I also realized you know one of my biggest fears with leaving YouTube is I was afraid I I was afraid for my pastor because you know um I I can be so desirous of communicating my ideas that I just I didn't want to fight with my pastor but I started several fights with my pastor while I was off YouTube and we made up you know all is well but I'm like oh my gosh I I it's it's better for me to communicate my ideas on YouTube so I can you know just bounce not feel the need to do that at church you know so yeah kind of like your wife said kind of like your wife had you start this podcast because she was like tired of you bugging your friends you know family about these questions to come out somehow some way and so yeah it's good it's very good so uh is it too personal to ask what sort of points you raised with your pastor and what sort of comebacks he had and how it went back and forth let's see I just want to make sure that I am honoring to him by doing this um so but well I will say this the church that we attend is about as far theologically as you can get from my own beliefs okay so even farther than Catholic like Catholicism I'd say you and I have more share more in common theologically than I do with my pastor and our our church and so it's a PCA church it's a calvinist church and so one of the fights that I got in was um I asked my pet my pastor we were at Bible study and he said well let's pray for my friend Billy um you know because I'm I'm hoping the Lord will work in his life and he'll get saved and I said well you know I'm I'm kind of wondering why we should pray for Billy either he's chosen or he's not right like it's possible that don't you isn't it possible that you like Billy better than God does like maybe God you know because in of course in the calvinist view there's no hope for Billy if God didn't choose him right so um you know I started that and I I made our Bible study go an hour longer because you know we were talking out these issues and I can't say we got anywhere we didn't get anywhere with that um and then the other issue I raised was about women in leadership so um my pastor in a sermon said that he was really preaching a great sermon great great sermon about how the Holy Spirit qualifies us for Ministry that though it's the Holy Spirit working in us and not us ourselves and so I just went up to him after the service and I said do you real I said I loved what you said about the Holy Spirit qualifying us but do you think it is really just the holy spirit that qualifies you or do you believe it's the Holy Spirit Plus your gender that qualifies you and so then we talked that out and in well he I bless him he he did he he did the best he could but um in responding um in a in a nice way I don't think he had sufficient answers you know his answer was well yes but we have to go by what the word of God says the clear teaching of the word of God and I said well what is the clear teaching because I used to believe like you believed that women weren't qualified for certain things but even then when I read the scripture the scripture was not clear at all even when I believed that all of those passages about women how are very problematic and you actually aren't following them either right if it says women be silent in the churches but women talk in our church so what's going on you know anyway this is all I I you know these are the things I challenged him on and he said he was gonna write a long response to me he hasn't done that yet but that's okay because like I said um you know we're okay I'm I have an outlet for expressing my thoughts about things is there a church nearby that would be better suited to your uh point of view or no yeah absolutely but you don't want to go there or well it's just a matter of asking God where we should go okay okay and we feel God has led us to this church okay we like the people the church that is very theologically aligned with us is a big thriving Church okay and our church is just a little Church of about 30 to 35 people I prefer that okay yeah so yeah I mean we would I would feel fine going in and out of this big thriving church and hey they don't need me you know but um and yeah they be aligned with us but then you know I where do I feel like we are more useful and I feel like it's at that smaller Church of course that assumes that we get along with all the people but it is a very very loving church I mean the people there are Stellar Stellar stellar and so I feel good about contributing to that church and so yeah interesting very interesting it's you know it's different from my Approach I try to find when I'm shopping for a local Parish the number one thing is I don't want to see any liturgical abuses or any preaching of anything that's anti-catholic like that's going against the doctrines of the church and uh sadly I've encountered both of those red flags at different churches here in Montreal so I've had to find parishes that at least where I'm not aware of the red flags like if I'm not aware of it it's fine but if I'm aware of it I can't I can't really go back and I've talked to a few of the priests to see if they were willing to change their ways and they weren't so whatever but uh so the first Criterion for me is are they Catholic is this Catholic Church Catholic if it's not I just won't go back um the second element I guess is I want it to be cute and small and cozy and beautiful and you know quiet like people there are there to pray not to talk or chatter or be on their cell phones or stuff like that which doesn't really happen too often in Catholic churches like most people are pretty aware that it's a Sacred Space and we have to put our cell phones off and this sort of thing but some places are a little bit more chatty than others I just don't like hearing people having mundane worldly conversations in a church I just don't like it uh I've done it by accident when I saw an old friend that I didn't expect to see and it's just like it just happened and oops now I'm one of these idiots today that I hate at church but you know I forgive these people very easily I just want to go to a church where it's quiet and it's reverent and so that's the main that's the main thing for me is it Catholic yes okay good and is it cute quiet cozy and has all the smells and bells that's sort of the second thing so I can get in the mood because if I'm not in the mood to commune with God it's just I may as well be at McDonald's you know whatever specific and I can pray at McDonald's but it's just not that effective and I don't go to McDonald's by the way it's not an ad for McDonald's so yeah it would never occur to me to go to a different denomination because I think they need to hear the truth about the Catholic church and I'm not saying that you're infiltrating to try to pull them out of their uh calvinist ways I'm not saying that but um you are kind of going in among those you disagree with with the hopes of sharing your perspective right well now both me and my husband agreed that if we were gonna go there we we were not going there on a mission to change them okay okay so no I'm not trying to change them although those two little fights that I started with my pastor are more that was like me like kind of going against our original agreement okay it was me falling into temptation to discuss these types of things right I I seized I seized opportunities that I probably shouldn't have seized according to our agreement so no we are not going there to change them we are going there understanding that we are not going to change them because it's it's not just them it's the entire denomination and we're not going to change a denomination you know so like um yeah how would you feel how would your you and your husband feel if the pastor started digesting some of your perspective and he and his congregation agreed that okay well we're not really going to be following the old ways and we're just gonna quietly go about things with a couple of these new ideas even not be I'm not saying that they're newer ideas than what they had but in their history of their Parish or whatever you call it um it would be a novelty to sort of start thinking differently so uh would that be a good thing if they just sort of organically grew into something that suited your theology better or well that would depend on the effect it would have on the overall Church body right like if the pastor changing his mind about something caused the church body to become divisive because there were other people who were resisting that and then you know there was a fight within the church or even worse the pastor gets ousted from his position because of that then no I don't think that would be no um but I set it up like the pastor and his flock just sort of slowly organically started doing things a little bit differently sure that would be great why not yeah then you'd have to go find another church too I'm just kidding but again you're assuming that I'm coming there to change the church I'm not that's why I I'm not there to change it I'm there to fellowship with the people of course of course of course but the big Mega the big mega church thing is a turn off for me and so I understand if you feel Anonymous in there and even if they agree with you whatever it's just not maybe going to be the same experience I 100 agree with that aspect of it and um you know there's also the worldliness of just having a lot of money when your pastor has a lot of money that turns yeah turns me off immediately don't like it absolutely me too that's like that's why I like when me and my husband were talking through the issues I was like yes they're aligned with us theologically but I think the money issue is going to bother me just as much as the Theo theology for sure you know um so in in the commercialization of the church that comes in with that when there's a lot of money involved you know so yeah do you know a guy that goes by the handle k c a Randy yes said he popped by to say hello to you and oh hi Randy I don't think he's great to see I don't think he could stay but he popped by and do you know Kevin do you know Kevin nontrod cath non non-tratty cath Kevin I interviewed him anyway I don't know he's excited that you're on so he must know about you but uh oh cool and then one final thing from the chat I want you to because I know you're a prayer Warrior your prayers are very powerful I want you to pray for my friend pie Chris I mentioned him to you earlier uh okay I'd like you to pray for him right now so he can hear you and your powerful prayers for his father his father's in the hospital I'm not sure what's wrong with him but I'm sure it's not great if he's in the hospital so I like the way you pray and I I'm sort of subcontracting because I told him I would pray for his father and I will but I'm sort of subcontracting now to you so let's have it sure so his name is pie Crisp that's a fake name but yeah that's okay okay so um father we thank you so much that your eye is on the sparrow that not one uh Lowell bird falls to the ground apart from you and so we know that your eye is on Chris's father right now in the hospital and we pray that your life would flow into him that your healing would flow through every bit of his body that he would um be sustained that he would be healthy and I pray that the entire family will have peace right now May the peace of the Lord Jesus Christ sustain them through this time and may his father be totally healed in the name of Jesus Christ amen that's nice uh I'm sure he appreciates that uh Kevin non-tradicaf says it's Kevin O'Connor so maybe you recognize him by that name he just change change his handle so anyway he seems to know you he seems to know you oh cool I probably do know him but probably have like a 10 000 fans or something like that not that many I would say I have like a few hundred fans but I I and I my my my fans are you know small enough that I I know everyone personally I think ah but out of context It's hard out of context sometimes yeah yeah so like right now I have I know several Kevin so I don't know if it's the Kevin I'm thinking of but yeah he was raised um in a traditional catholic family and hearing you talk about your uh the sort of big church in the small church and these sorts of things uh it reminded him he said of the sort of split between the radtrads and the Catholic church and the novus ordo there's sort of a split there now which is sad but true and uh you know people have different needs spiritual needs and people aren't happy with Pope Francis or whatever or the Vatican II or whatever it might be and so they go shopping for something else and they find something more conservative and you know I I agree with them for the most part like that we have lost our way in the church we're worldly the church is very worldly today but that's often been the case if you read the history of the Catholic church it's very often been very worldly and there's nothing really new and I think I think there have been worse periods in the church than we're living through today but whatever I mean I'm I'm just less uh easily distracted by the worldliness of people in the hierarchy then some people are some people are very sensitive to that especially at the conservative those who are in love with the past and tradition and I understand that but um I think maybe I'm a little bit more callous or cynical or skeptical so it just doesn't bother me when I see someone's corrupt or someone's hypocrite religious hypocrite like we read about that in the Bible Jesus was confronting that all the time it's nothing new right hypocrisy hypocrisy in the church or in among the Jews or it's I think it's to be expected no yes and we just talked about the rich pastors with their nice crocodile shoes and their fancy cars and airplanes and stuff but uh yeah it's a choice we make I mean some people maybe maybe some people are able to do that and maintain a connection with God I don't know I I don't think I could I don't think I could have both God in my mind I don't think I could serve both yeah yeah well well how long are we talking today David because I wanted to get into this Catholic stuff because you sent me all these dogmas I don't know if this is the summary how long how long are we gonna talk I've only got 13 hours no I'm kidding I've got uh I've got I've got my next guest at uh four so we'll talk for another hour okay so you sent me a list a long time ago of dogmas of the church and I guess my first question is there's 426 like separate things here yeah um now is this an official list okay so this is unofficial but this is it is this comprehensive no but it's okay so I think I think it contains all the essentials that's my gut feeling because if there were like if you've got 400 and this is just one theologian's perspective he's just he's compiled this book his name's Ludwig art uh he's compiled this list and other theologians have come up with similar lists but if these theologians come up with like 400 dogmas essential saving truths of Christianity if if they come up with 400 I really really doubt that they forgot about a couple of really important ones I don't think so I think the really important ones are you know God God is real God exists God is all good all-power of omniscience you know all this pure Perfections and God is a trinity and there's God the Father the Son Holy Spirit and the second person incarnated like we could go through like a dozen of them that cover the the basics in you and I and every other Christian would agree on them right and then all the other ones are a lot of them are Catholic distinctives about mariology and stuff like that which I think are very essential and they're connected with the uh the dogmas that you and I would agree with but uh no these are very loose uh non-inflallible lists of dogmas for sure for sure but I'm very very confident in like I said those dozen or so core dogmas that you and I would agree on now if somebody wants to find like the official teaching of the church comprehensively is that it's not available it's not going to be in the form of uh grades of certainty like that that list I gave you has grades of certainty this is what the theologians are doing um in an in a fallible way they're putting together um now some of I I should qualify this and say that some of the judgments are uh 100 certain because the church does teach that you know like I said a lot of these dogmas are well defined and they're clearly understood to be well defined but then they'll be the gray area and then some speculation so it's a mixed bag but um like we cannot call into question uh I would not call into question any of the dogmas that I gave you in that list but some of them are weaker than others and like I said the the ones that you and I agree on are just 100 certain in there that if they feed a dogmas and a lot of the day feed dogmas that I that I know are 100 certain you have not yet come to believe are even uh true so yeah yeah and you actually when you sent me the list you said you'd like to talk about I think it was like number 216 through 222 or something like that okay like it was like a certain group of them and I'm very interested in talking about those if we can start with that and then I would like to talk about Mary because you know I've recently been considering you know maybe I need to understand more about Mary and maybe I need to hear this from my Catholic brothers and sisters and what was cool is I was at church when I had that thought and then and so I I purposed in myself that I was going to get in contact you know with my Catholic friends to to talk about Mary and then that day my Catholic friend contacted me no way but she said yeah but um and and so anyway but um I I decided I would it would be you know that you would probably have more knowledge than she would actually she's the one who said that she said if if there's somebody you know you know that she's like I'm not an expert on these things and so yeah well yeah but I think you've done quite a bit of study on this topic right so okay but okay so here was the 216 the the one that you wanted that basically that we had a disagreement about yeah so it's this without special divine revelation no one can know with certainty of faith if he be in the State of Grace yeah okay yeah so I have some I have some um scripture that I I wrote down that I think conflicts with this so I'd like to hear what your thoughts on these scriptures are sure okay so second Corinthians chapter one um verse 22 says he anointed us set his seal of ownership on us and put his spirit in our hearts as a deposit guaranteeing what is to come yeah 100 100 guaranteed 100 guaranteed yet I he's you know it's a it's the context is the church right so um it's just a question like it's like the image that I would use to convey the the nuanced interpretation to you that will allow you and I to uh hold on to scripture and to this Dogma is that Noah's Ark right like you're in or you're out if you're out you're you perish and if you're in you save and only only eight got in and those eight were sealed and they were guaranteed uh to survive and uh so the church is that Ark the ark is a type of the church and the church is the anti-type it's the the reality so the church is more real not less real than Noah's Ark so uh it's the same thing like if you're in if you're in and the arc itself actually was sealed outside and in with black pit tray like it was waterproof and airtight and it was sealed and actually when Noah got in the ark he sealed the door right so uh or did God seal it from outside I can't remember but it was sealed the door was sealed so that's the analogy that I would use so I I hope you would understand that the the um the floods are coming okay the floods are coming and uh we are being warned by uh God and God's Messengers to get into the ark because the floods are coming the rains are coming and uh it's the holy spirit that will guide us and allow us to receive the warning and to get into the ark and to be saved and it's sealed and it's guaranteed but the sad reality is only eight people got on the ark and today not everyone will choose to get into the church right so um I believe that you are a member of Christ and you are not you don't have the fullness of the faith yet but you have the potential to get the fullness of the faith and to be in the State of Grace when you die and we've had this conversation before about the state of grace are you in the State of Grace or not and uh you know I can't I can't read your heart only God knows the heart but I would like to think so you know I'd like to okay but do I have the Holy Spirit to the extent that you love the Catholic Church yes you have the Holy Spirit to the extent that you love the church so this is It's All About the church and that analogy of the of the Ark is perfect because um if you believe if you believe Noah that the rains are coming and that you're in danger and you have to get into the ark as silly and crazy as it sounds you have to get in the ark believe me just believe me trust me get in the ark God told me so uh if you are a fool for Christ and you believe the prophecies and you get into Noah's Ark even though everyone's gonna laugh at you then you're going to be safe that's it so um uh yeah there's there's still time for you there's still time for me there's still time for the atheists and the satanists to get into the ark that's the beautiful thing about uh this Fallen World is it ain't over till it's over and we judge no man or woman before their death right because I mean you're you are a member of Christ that's what the church teaches me that you the are separated brethren and sisters are members of the body of Christ but there's an imperfect relationship with uh the church so it's kind of like are you in the ark or are you not in the ark and that's that's okay but you have a good relationship with the church so are you in the ark I just came from confession so yeah unless unless I commit so now you know you're in a state of grace you know I don't know for sure I don't know for sure because I was just in the middle of saying unless I did uh mortal sin between like within the past hour and a half which is possible I mean it's just like the heart you know was it Jeremiah that talked about the heart and how deceptive and treacherous the human heart is Jeremiah do you know the quote yes yep the human heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked right yeah so there you go okay now okay what about this verse okay Colossians 1 um 12 and 13. and giving joyful thanks to the father who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the in the Kingdom of Light for he has rescued us from the Dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the son he loves in whom we have Redemption the Forgiveness of sins so this I what I'm noticing here is that this is past tense he rescued us and he brought us into the kingdom of the son he loves so um I've been rescued you've been rescued me too yeah yeah so many times so many times okay so many times you would say only once yeah I would say so many times so many times I've been rescued and if you read the Saints if you read if you'd like to read the Christian perspective of Christians from the first century second century third Century 4th Century all the way up till today read the writings of the holy men and women who have lived Christ and died in Christ and who've been willing to suffer and uh what did they say about how many times they were saved like Christ even though there's a once for all uh sacrifice on the cross they all say the same thing they all say the same thing that they fall and they get given another chance and they fall and they get given another chance and the grace just keeps coming and their weakness you know uh like Saint Paul says uh he hasn't finished the course he he's fixated on the prize keeping his eyes on Christ because lest he fail in his good fight in the race to win the crown like it's just it's just so clear in the Scripture it is so clear that we so then to fight the good fight we have to keep racing and do you not know that many run the race but only one wins the prize so we have to train our bodies we have to train ourselves and discipline ourselves we have to we have to take this seriously and we are in danger like we're in a lot of danger so that's very clear when you read Saint Paul I think you can't ignore that oh well I don't ignore that I think you know in order to um you know be effective for Christ on Earth we do have to persevere um because we are in a war and so we're in a battle with the powers of darkness and to be victorious you know we we're we have to keep fighting right but let me ask you something okay keep going yeah no I mean but we already were fighting from a position of knowing that we're already part of Christ's Kingdom and that we're already ultimately going to be victorious in you know as children of God what I would say is is a very common sense argument against your point of view once saved are always saved or whatever you want to call it uh when you're tempted and please don't tell me that you're never tempted to sin but when you're tempted to sin what it what what is entailed in that Temptation what's what is what is the danger what is the danger is it the dangerous is the day not reflecting the image of God okay so you're going to end up in heaven the same yeah you're going to give the same glory to God even if you sin no I said the danger is that I don't I'm not if I if I if I go into sin right then I'm choosing to not be a reflect the image of God I'm choosing to you know live in the world and pursue worldly desires it's like Ephesians says it says look you're children of light you were once Darkness now your light in the Lord so live as children of the light it wouldn't be appropriate for a Child of the Light to live in the darkness I don't want to live in darkness I want to live in the light I want to reflect his glory I want to like reflect his love I want to do his will on Earth because it's better for the world right what's the danger well um you know there's a lot of danger there's danger to my family there's danger to people around me you know that all kinds of bad things can happen when you're not obeying the Lord yeah well you know the the guy who buried his one talent because he thought that God was uh or the master was a Stern man or whatever um his his talk his talent was taken away from him right so it's like the the consequences are very grave for sinning it's not just setting a bad example it's not just uh you know not living up to your full potential as a mirror of the light of God it's not it's not it's the fear is that Satan and his demons they want your soul and they have tricks to get your soul they can get your soul Satan and his demons they want your soul and they can get your soul it's a reality I'm not worried about you I'm not particularly worried about you but I hope you realize it's it's only going to help your battle to know that they want your soul and they can't yes they can end up with your soul and health so I want you to realize that it'll make you a better Warrior yes David David but I think that you might have a misunderstanding because of what I believe yeah because I'm not saying once saved always saved okay okay yeah yeah I'm just saying your nuanced position for sure well I'm I'm I leave open the room that the scripture does for people to become apostates right yeah to totally reject Christ and leave the faith okay but I'm I'm a once saved always secure okay what I mean is like you you don't I'm saved no there's no sin that's going to take me that's Jesus paid for the worst of my sins past present and future the sins are taken care of yeah but but uh you know I I am so I need to stay in the faith right and I think even if somebody fails well then you know it I could end up like Pine Creek or somebody who's you know was in the faith for 30 years and then turned against the Lord and is now doing the horrible like doing horrific work for Satan like you know what I'm saying like I would I wouldn't want to end up like that but more subscribers so um but you know like um all I'm saying is like when I read this I've it says that I've been we've been he has rescued us from the Dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the sun he loves I don't think that we're in and out of the Kingdom every time we sin right no no no because no no no no you also need to remember a Nuance from my side which is venial sin and mortal sin there's that distinction that needs to be made and it you know it's one thing to talk about the Dogma where we can't be sure that we're in the State of Grace it's even less sure if the sin I committed is Mortal or venial so like we're really in the dark here as Saint Paul said like we see as in a mirror that's shattered or a dark glassly or whatever he says so yeah we're really this is one of the consequences of original sin we don't have the clarity we don't have that proximity to God that gives us the the pure light white light of reason to see uh you know what motivates our choices and these sorts of things we're really muddled and confused because of the original sin and it's compounded by our actual sin so you know I I just want to drive home to you my perspective because it's not theoretical it's it's a reality that I live every day and you know me because you've listened to a couple of my shows and you've talked to me a couple times you know you might think that I'm scrupulous or that I'm you know of a dark pessimistic view of my own salvation but I know myself better than you do I know how dark it is to sin I know how dark it is you don't know because you don't you don't know my how dark my sins are you might know how dark your sins are but uh I'm telling you from firsthand experience it's like I'm dancing with the devil I you know I say yes to Satan and uh you know hopefully less and less and I had a good long stretch uh at the beginning the first 10 years of my conversion where it was just like easy you know but now with covet and family problems I've been tempted more and I've been having uh This Dance with the Devil and I don't I like I told my priest today like what is wrong with me why don't I just say no at the first sign of any Temptation whether it's for gluttony or laziness or Pride or whatever it is and uh it's the mystery of iniquity right we don't why why why do I have this illness this mental illness a spiritual illness where I even contemplate opening the door to Satan and his demons but I can promise you that this is not some theoretical fantasy it's a reality it's a very very dark world it's a very dark spiritual World on the other side if you're not on the side of God and it's very real it's a very real danger for me and I feel a little bit sorry for you that you don't understand that aspect of the spiritual battle like you don't see how close you are to being Damned uh no I don't see how close I am to being damned because I believe you know that I've been rescued and that Christ like that that he has truly saved me right there's no doubt there's no doubt that God has saved me Christ died for me right he's offered me eternal life like it's it's there if I wanna The Graces are there no one's denying that the Catholics don't deny that The Graces are there if we want to cooperate with those Graces we want to unpack these beautiful gifts that he's given us if we want to say yes yes yes yes yes no one's denying that that that's an option but there's other there's this other option right which is to go into selfishness self-love love of self and uh you know worship of self-pride it's it's it's the broad way it's the broad way to hell and it's like it's calling to me it's calling to me all the time and uh maybe maybe I'm just going through a particularly dark few years here but it's a reality I'm very aware of the reality and maybe you're just complacent because you're just you're a better Christian and you're in a more secure place right now and I certainly would never hint at you know wishing ill on you but it could be just to sort of sort of talk about the reality of what could be in your future like you might get old you might get sick and you might get weak and then the devil might start toying with you you know what I mean like I mean I want you to be prepared for that so that's my concern that's why I'm a little bit passionate about this because it's not just some theoretical theological point that we're talking about it's reality there's a spiritual battle and it's scary and it's dark and I want you to be well aware that you are not untouchable okay so that's my main point yeah well yeah David you know I I have been in some dark times where I felt the pull I felt the pull very strongly and you know by God's grace I overcame but you know I still believe that if I had gone you know if I had gone in the way of the world that Christ would be faithful to me and so because I truly believe what it says you know in Ephesians 2 that it is by grace that I've been saved through faith and this is not of myself it is the gift of God not by works so that no one can boast I believe what it says here in Ephesians 2 that because of his great love for us God who is rich in Mercy made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions It Is by Grace you have been saved and God raised us up and seated us with him in the Heavenly Realms in Christ Jesus so I believe that I'm seated in the Heavenly Realms with Christ you're seated in Heavenly Realms with Christ you've been United to him he has deposited his holy spirit in you and that doesn't you don't get you don't lose it based on your behavior because if you did then this is not a gift this is something it's a contract right so is salvation from God a gift or is it a contract have you violated the contract and bunch of gifts that I've discarded out of contempt for the Gift Giver I have lots of gifts I'm talking on human terms here I have many gigs I've discarded out of contempt for the Gift Giver okay it happens I'm sorry that happens and it's devastating to think about The Ultimate Gift Giver God giving me the ultimate Grace of Salvation and me spurning that and uh just discarding it but it's I'm telling you right now it's a possibility and I'm not hoping for that I don't you know I'm I'm not uh losing sleep over it because like you I have a certain amount of confidence and security because I'm in the church and I'm a member of the mystical Body of Christ so like you I have that security I have that you know that confidence in God but the you know I just read recently uh Alphonsus legory said there are three points to the Christian walk one is diffidence and self the other is confidence in God so diffidence and confidence are complete Polar Opposites right I'm not confident in myself I'm confident in God and the third point is avoid Temptation like um resist that's the key word that's what he said resist he didn't write in English obviously but he said resist temptation so I need to have less confidence in myself like zero confidence in myself and more confidence in God 100 confidence in God and I need to resist temptation and it's not just a fun game resisting temptation is not just a fun game or it's not so that I can shine more brightly in this world a set an example for the others it's because I'm in danger so this is the constant tradition of the of the church and we may be splitting hairs here I don't think we really discreet too too much maybe you think we disagree more than we actually do um but um the emphasis is different I would emphasize the danger the danger of not resisting temptation and maybe you're just less tempted you know maybe you're just less tempted to sin and I'm not saying that I can always judge between venial sin and mortal sin uh I don't think I'm good at judging that and I tend to err on the side of caution where I'll go to confession and maybe it's just venial sin uh because the great divorce where i s i abandon God and I I don't want his grace I have certainly not encountered that since my reversion in 2009 but you have to remember you have to remember that I was born and raised Protestant Christian and I rejected God at the age of 14 and for 25 years as an adult I was living as though God is not God that I am God so I'm living proof you know that we can go into the ark out of the Ark into the ark out of the Ark and you know I can also disparage the gifts uh gifts of the great Gift Giver so I think it's a different emphasis that you and I place I don't think we really disagree too much but um what is the danger from your perspective because I've kind of hinted at the fact that if you're not aware that your soul is in Peril then the devil might be able to surprise you so that's the the danger that I see for you what's the danger you see from my perspective is it that I'm going to be doubting God and doubting God's goodness or anything because I certainly don't doubt God right yeah well I don't think from my perspective I'm not as concerned about I'm not concerned about your Eternal Destiny Okay at all but I am concerned about your misery upon the Earth as you walk on the earth okay so because because you know like it says in Galatians the fruit of the spirit is love joy peace right so Joy should fill your life and I think when when you're um when you are afraid of um that your sin is could possibly separate you from God that Temptation could lead you to sin that could separate you from God when you when you are concerned about that it's a Joyce dealer right it is no fun to live that way it is absolutely and and you know um so I think like what you're in danger of is just being a little bit more miserable here than I am yeah yeah that's true that's true but you know there are other sort of uh contributing factors you know like am I psychology history and lots of mental illness in my family stuff like that so that's a contributing factor I'm always aware of right like it's like what's my character what's my father characterized three children there are two natural children one adopted child in my family and my father characterized three children that one of my siblings is angry uh the other one is indifferent and I'm sad that's how he characterized us early on in life like just like General traits you know how to respond to stress and how to respond to some of the drama in the family it was like anger sadness and indifference and uh I mean I'm not putting my sample of approval on that that this is 100 True interpretation but it just gives you an idea about like I don't know if you have siblings or whatever but some of them you know yeah characters and you know predispositions let's say you know parents can have a stronger influence on their child and their words can have an influence and it sounds like without even realizing it because your dad probably didn't mean anything harmful by it but I mean he that's really he put a curse on you guys with his words okay it could be yeah it could be so do you mind if I just pray to just to rebuke that and and and tell the truth about you liberate me yes for God's sake liberate me from all the family drama and my siblings and everyone else and my parents and blah blah blah my ancestors and everyone yeah of course I love that I welcome that and uh Chase those demons away too the intergenerational demons chase them away while you're at it okay I will um and so um and then maybe we can move to talking about Mary so um father we thank you Lord I Thank you that David you you've given him um a father and a mother and we know that you want him to honor his father and mother and Lord we know David's father did not mean anything intentional to harm his children by putting these labels on them and I've done it to my own children Lord and without realizing it and so Lord we just forgive him for doing that and for any of the previous generations who who may have done that in some way we just forgive them first of all and but at the same time Lord we don't want to let this curse of words stand against David any longer so right now in the name of Jesus Christ we break this curse of words that was put on David um about him being sad David is not sad we break that in the name of Jesus Christ we break off of his siblings the curse of words about being indifferent and the one about being angry we break those the power of those words in the name of Jesus Christ who became a curse for us and so we thank you Lord Jesus Christ for absorbing Every curse for us and so and we just right now want to speak the truth over David Lord in your name I speak the truth over David that he is a blessed child of God he is your beloved he's the apple of your eye he is in with your spirit his life is full of joy his life is full of love and that he at your right hand are Pleasures forevermore and that in you Lord he has life and in all the happiness that that could possibly be for a person he has that in you so we thank you Lord and we ask you to just remove any residual effect of those um words that were spoken over him that particular word and that you would replace that with your blessing and we put Lord if there's any anything else coming in from the previous generations that's um at all a harm to David in the name of Jesus Christ we declare the blood of Jesus Christ to be a barrier between David and the previous generations and we thank you Lord Jesus Christ for the cleansing of your blood your purification and that David is cleansed from all sin and from all harm caused to him by the previous generations and we call the blessing that is belongs to the previous generations to David and we thank you Lord and the blessing that belongs to Jesus Christ that he said he was sharing with those of us who believe in him let your blessing be upon David and upon his siblings amen amen thank you so much you're welcome you should charge for this service no way are you kidding you know actually you know I was just listening actually to um father Gabriel amorth do you know him Exorcist you know yes and one of the things that he mentioned was the you know horrible practice of people receiving money for doing blessings and and praying for people yeah so it was a joke in bad taste but no I was just saying I appreciate your uh your prayers and I made a little joke but yeah I agree with you 100 it's definitely uh demonic to uh to turn it into a business and that's why Jesus broke out the whips and cleared the temple right because supposed to be a House of Prayer not a house of corruption and money so yeah I appreciate that I'm gonna I'm gonna uh I'm gonna take your prayer with me because prayer is not merely temporal prayer is Mystical and so I've got that uh that prayer that I can keep with me and I'd love that you invoked the blood of Jesus because I belong to a confraternity that's the precious blood of Jesus confraternity so I pray every day for the uh the benefits of the protection of the but I need a lot of help I mean uh you know so I I don't take it lightly the fact that you took the time and energy to pray for me and mine I really do appreciate it that's one of the main benefits of the podcasters I get to meet Christians and I get to pray for non-christians and stuff like that so it's uh it's a real blessing to to be able to do this exchange even though it's over the Internet would be a much nicer in the village town square like back in the good old days but there might have been dangers with the real life encounters and so this is just the modern way with the internet but I do I really do appreciate it and I think your prayers are powerful and full of love and uh so yeah I'm very happy and we can talk about Mary now thank you and I just want to again thank you David because I you told me the the first time I came that you submitted my name for um prayer for a mass like I I guess I don't remember the daily Perpetual Mass yeah it's called Perpetual Master every day you're getting The Graces of that so it's this is amazing that is so beautiful it's a little gesture but it's a nice it's a nice thing I do for all my guests actually and so uh that'll be one of the joys of uh Judgment Day the general judgment will get to see how those graces were distributed and what little part we played like with your prayers that you do for people like the prayer you did for me just now to be able to see because now we can't see but you'll actually be able to see and I'll be able to see and everyone will be able to see how you were an instrument of God's grace like how does God humble himself to allow little creatures like us to be instruments of his grace that's the most amazing thing and that's what we're going to see among other things amazing things we're going to see in the next uh life right yes it's pretty incredible so yeah I'm not maybe as dark and pessimistic as you think although I do have that strain in me but maybe maybe it's gone now because of your prayer we'll see usually it takes usually it takes a few more Deliverance prayers than just one I've had many done on me and uh every little bit helps but maybe yours yeah maybe yours will be the straw that breaks the camel's back but it is true you know we're all burdened with our own little uh cage in the mind or the heart or the disconnects or the the little problems and I'm sure you've got your pain your secret pain and stuff like that too and uh does anyone ever dig deep into you your soul and your problems and get in touch with your real needs like the way you did for me oh you know um yeah I mean I've I have I'm blessed I have a lot of very close friends that you know I've talked to throughout the years but also you know um at one time I went to a Deliverance Ministry and they did four or five sessions with me where they dug I mean I I was like so blessed by these ladies you know they dug so deep into every aspect of my life and just did prayers of Deliverance over everything and so you know they really they they spent probably two um there were two it was a two-hour session but about four or five times so um that was a huge blessing yeah wow wow really really blessed in that way I'm not blessed in that way because I don't have like I told may have mentioned to you before I don't have an Entourage of Christians so let's you know it everyone like uh I don't start complaining because God has a plan for each and every one of us and they're certainly darker darker places to be than where I'm at right um you think about people who are struggling to get clean drinking water and who are being raped by their uncle or by their husband or whatever like on a weekly basis or whatever it might be or political prisoners are falsely accused or whatever like I mean there's so many dark scenarios I it would just be ridiculous for me to start complaining though I don't have a lot of Christian friends whatever first world problems but um it's incredible to think about God's care and concern you talked about the bird the little bird that falls to the ground and God knows that bird and God loves that bird and how much more does he love his humans right so uh it's incredible to think about God's care for those who seem completely like um how should I say like if you see us a drug addict Street person who is just puking in the corner on a rainy day or something like that have you seen this sort of thing uh and God's right there watching and doing this thing and the plan is like God's content with his plan like it's the plan's working out nicely you know it's like God's not worried let's not worried about that guy I am and you are we get a pit in our stomach and we just think this is horrible but God's right there God's smiling on him and God has a plan for that that poor soul and it's also you talk about being a mirror of the light mirror of God's light but there's also uh we're supposed to see Christ in the most downtrodden the most marginal uh that's at least that's the sort of the ongoing Catholic tradition to emphasize the downtrodden the poor and these sorts of things I don't know how I guess we talked a little bit about money too so it's connected but um you know the sick and those who are disadvantage for different reasons crippled people and stuff like that so uh yeah it's all very mysterious it's very mysterious how God works and how God's not worried and so that helps me to uh not complain about my own situation certainly but also to not worry too much about someone who seems to be in a very very dark very very dark situation so I'm sure you yes I'm sure you agree I agree but I'll add one thing is that um you know when when Mary and Martha lost Lazarus Jesus came and he knew he was going to raise him from the dead but when he saw them weeping he wept yeah and so you know at this although he knew that there was going to be a good outcome he wept in that moment so I think although God has the joy in his heart knowing what the future holds that he can still weep with us in the moment and that he is concerned about what is happening in that moment and the effect that it's having on the person for sure for sure yeah I was thinking more of God the father but um God incarnate and this is this is another mysterious thing that isn't quite uh understood by me or anyone else is is God the Father is God the Father cannot be ignorant of Any Human Experience or any experience even of the little bird that falls to the to the ground but the Incarnation is a special is a special um case where the second person of the Trinity actually took on human flesh and lived as a man fully human in all things except for sin so I mean you're you're no expert and you're not God Almighty so you don't know the answer but I just want you to talk about God the father and what he gains from the Incarnation of the second person is it identical or is there a different lived experience for the father for the Son and the Holy Ghost I mean I don't even might even be blessedness to even ask these questions I don't know yeah I have no of idea yeah I have no I I really have no idea yeah it's probably a mistake to compartmentalize the three persons and to say well the sun knows what it's like to be human but the father and the Holy Ghost don't believe no of course the father and the Holy Ghost do know what it is to be human but maybe the second person there has to be something unique about that experience of incarnating right because only the second person incarnate yeah yes we'll just leave that tension there we don't know and yeah yeah it's it's interesting I mean this might be slightly off topic but have you seen the movie The Shack uh oh oh yeah a friend of mine is Catholic he was in love with that movie okay yeah and I'm not endorsing everything the movie says although I do think it's a you know it it does a good job of dealing with the problem of evil and human Judgment of God so it it does a good job but there's just one scene of the movie that comes to my mind that just makes me cry when I think about it and it you know in the movie the father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are they appear to a man but they they appear in the form of people and at one point in the movie the father and the Holy Spirit are dancing to music and they're just having a great time and for me this is such a touching scene of the movie because you know it just if you can imagine the trinity in joyful Unity enjoying each other and enjoying the creation it's just it's really beautiful yeah I I found that movie just a little bit cringy but um you know it's hard it's it's just hard to make a Christian movie about where you're portraying Jesus or much less God the Father the Holy Spirit but it's just it's a challenge to do that so I applaud anyone who's gonna try as long as they do it in love and in uh yeah it has some B it has some B movie cheesiness to it I totally agree with that but you know what movie doesn't the Tree of Life okay have you seen this no the tree of life is the best depiction of God in any movie that I've seen it is so beautiful so incredibly beautiful you'll be happy to talk about it I'll have to check that out there's a Protestant movie that I like and I've been kind of pushing it on my friends and they don't really like it but um it's um it's not called Last Chance Cafe it's called the encounter where Jesus runs a cafe and some people are having problems with the road is washed out by the rains and there's some good guys and some bad guys and they just they don't have a choice they're strangers but they don't have a choice but to get to know each other in this little encounter in the small Roadside Cafe and Jesus runs the cafe and it's called The Encounter I I suggest you watch it I think you might like it if you okay if you're okay if you're okay with a little bit of cheese cheesy cheesy movie Vibes but uh for some reason I just I just really like it even though it's corny and it's cheesy but it's okay I'll look it up it's a strange portrayal of Jesus sort of as a really down to earth Jesus which some might find Blasphemous or whatever but uh I I let it slide just because I know if your intentions are pure and you you know like if some Christian child writes a poem about Jesus and it's not theologically correct or whatever it's like just let it slide it's a child it's a child of God expressing their love and just yes and if you think you're gonna do better if you think he could do a better movie then just go for it you know yeah okay so on to Mary yes can you tell me what do you think I'm missing as a Protestant with my view on Mary both theologically and experientially well the I'll start with the theological it's just that Mary is like if you know the mystical Body of Christ I believe you're a member of the body you're a Christian you're a member of Christ you're a member of the body and Christ is the Hedge so Christ is your head Christ is the head of the mystical body right obviously and Mary is the neck so she's the channel through which all The Graces flow all 100 of The Graces that come from God go through the neck to the body 100 so that's it's not like uh it's not like she did some cool things while she was on Earth no she's the mystical neck of the mystical body and every single Grace that you receive for your salvation for anything else comes through Mary so that's the theological proportion that you're missing out on unless you believe that um and then the sort of experiential or other sort of part of it was just the motherly love like you have a mother like you have this mystical mother you know so that's the other component and just the comfort you get from the not only Saint Mary but all of the Saints because it comes as a package deal once you realize that you have this mother and then you've got all these brothers and sisters with the apostles and I don't know how you feel about the apostles but I for one feel like you know to have Saint Paul I I I feel like as a Catholic I have more proximity to the Saints including one of my heroes who is Saint Paul you know um I know a lot of Protestants are also indebted to Saint Paul they admire Saint Paul but do they have that proximity that I get because of Mary because of the the Catholic understanding of the economy of Salvation where we have the channel of Graces in the mystical body going through this neck which is Mary and all the implications that that has for the communion of saints I don't know if you uh if you have that but if you don't you're missing out because it's uh it's a big deal so I'll let you respond to all that well um maybe I am missing out but I'm just like of course I'm not sure where I would get some of these ideas if I'm looking to scripture and you know I don't know if I'm solo scripture I don't know but I mean just some of these give me a little bit of red flags as I was reading these dogmas I want to read this one and see what you say about it number 175 says Mary the Mother of God is entitled to The Cult of hyperdulia Cultus latria and cultist Julia pertain to different types of worship cultist literally means worship not adoration nor veneration or honor but truly the term worship for if cultists meant honor then cultist dulia would be translated as honor honor which would be absurd so basically is this trying to say Mary is worthy of worship yep not the worship due to God but the worship due to the Saints and not only the worship due to the Saints but an extreme hyper form of that worship that's due to the Saints so I have you have to understand when I came into the Catholic church I knew all the stereotypes uh and all the you know anti-catholic tropes okay so I was aware of uh all of them including this one about worship but I quickly and easily understood and have come to love the Catholic understanding of the word worship which is just to see the worth of it's It's the it's the recognition of the reality of the goodness the ontological goodness of God's saving plan or is it economy of salvation and so I always tie everything back to the economy of Salvation and that mystical body of Jesus Christ and Christ is ahead marries the neck and we the Saints are the body will make up the body so um to see the worth of God's creation like it says in Genesis God saw it he saw that it was good and not only good but very good especially the human creation is very good so this is what worship is worship is the uh rightful and just appreciation of the economy of Salvation and latria or adoration which is due to God and to God Alone is very very very very very clearly distinguished from that worship okay so when people ask me do you worship Mary I say yes I do do I adore her as God no I do not and I never would right but I bring that worship as maximally close to uh adoration as I can why because I want to honor her son and uh it's all about Jesus right so I worship Mary as much as I can I'm not saying that I'm a good Catholic and that I'm a good Christian that I worship as I should I'm just saying theoretically I want to give Mary as much Glory as I can in my worship of her so it redounds to to God okay so a lot of these things I'm not like sure where I would get this in scripture do you think there is scripture that would cause me to think that worship of Mary was warranted or that like Mary as the neck is like and all the through whom All The Graces flow I mean I could look up uh uh if you want I can find other resources for these two dogmas okay because this this book I don't know if you can see it on my screen sites uh tradition and scripture which are the two sources in in the Catholic understanding so we have What's called the sacred deposit of Faith which is sacred tradition and sacred scripture and the Sacred Scriptures are a subset of sacred tradition by the way the Sacred Scriptures are a subset of sacred Traditions so let that sink in because it was oral and it was written down by the positive will of God and God is primary author of the scriptures and there's no error anywhere to be found in scriptures and the human authors wrote what they wanted to write and what God wanted to them right and they were free but they were inspired so that's our Catholic understanding of the Sacred deposit of faith and the scriptures are a subset of tradition so it's important to have that to have that in mind but um I won't bother to look up the because I'm not good at multitasking but I can okay send you an email send it to me later okay but just rest assured that the theologians the theologians are very uh they're obliged to back up these uh theological conclusions with scripture and tradition so they they always do that and if they can't if they can't do that then it uh will never be a Dogma for sure okay and then this was interesting to me Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit was conceived by the Holy Spirit without the cooperation of man and she was also taken from the other rib of Adam hold on can you explain hold on you talking about Mary or Eve it says Mary this is number 165. okay Mary was taken from the side of Adam she was also taken from the other rib of Adam okay okay so we're talking about the first Adam the second item being Jesus and the first Eve and the second Eve Being Mary so this is typological probably I would need to uh crack open the book and uh maybe the best thing to do would be to uh for me to go away and send you an email and then the next time we talk we can actually look at the justification that I bring to these but okay at the top of my head you know off the top of my head I'm very excited about the the typology especially pertaining to Adam and Eve and Jesus and Mary and um this is all icing on the cake so what you need to understand about me as a Catholic Christian is that uh my faith in God is god-given it's a Grace but it's also built on the foundation of philosophy and the natural light of Reason which allows me to know with certainty that God is real and that he has all the pure Perfections these sorts of things the classical theism otherwise known as monotheism is not a faith-based set of beliefs it's a rational belief and there's no need for Faith to be a monotheist okay but I'm a Christian that means I've I've accepted faith-based beliefs that can't be proven using pure reason okay so the Trinity the Incarnation the Mary's the source of all Grace is these sorts of things not the source sorry excuse me but the uh mediatrix of all graces she's not the source of anything and I totally agree with that I don't believe in Christianity because um somebody gave me rational like you know no I I read this story and I felt the truth of it and I believed it and I've been experiencing the truth of it for many years now so and you got the grace and you said yes to the grace yeah so like but um I guess with these things about Mary these are some interesting like like I said I'm I'm I'm trying to be open-minded yeah yeah um it's just I'm not sure like this is a little bit outside of the box for me that like of course I believe in the Virgin birth but then here it's being told to me that actually there was another virgin birth it was Mary's birth that also no no she was born of a virgin no no it doesn't say that no no no no no no no what does it mean that she was conceived by the Holy Spirit without the cooperation of man that sh she herself was cons I'm reading what you sent me I'm just reading what you said yeah yeah okay so unfortunately the the list I gave you was numbered by some yeah on the internet but it's not remember it's not numbered in my book so I've got to look it up okay so uh how do you phrase the uh read the Dogma to me as it stands in your it says Mary conceived by the Holy Holy Ghost without the cooperation of man no no no no I don't I don't agree with that there must be some mistake okay Mary's mother and father were Anna and Joachim and they had sex and that's how Mary was conceived so she was immaculately conceived uh sorry uh yeah she was immaculately conceived but she was still conceived through sex what does that mean that she was immaculately conceived she had a unique privilege and Grace of prevenient Grace the only time there's been pre-venient Grace uh protecting her from the stain of original sin so in this one also in number 163 60 sent me it says from her conception Mary was free from all motions of concupiscence yeah concupiscence yet that's right so no no uh inclination towards sin Mary here we go okay I'm gonna look this up for you because this is important because you got me on a uh Freedom coupons okay so here we go 202 203 Immaculate Conception 199 202 okay so it's around 200. uh I know you have another guest don't you so if we want we can we can plan to have another talk on this for sure when you have sure for sure for sure for sure let me we will wrap it up here okay it says Mary was conceived without staying original sin do you have that one on your list what number is that yes yeah that's number 161 on the list you gave me and I'm looking for number 165. yep which would be okay Mary conceived by the Holy Ghost without the cooperation event so she conceived she actively conceived Jesus in her womb oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh okay yeah yeah I see so this isn't talking about Mary's conception no it says okay I got it I got it okay so we're talking about the Virgin birth yeah that solves that problem there yet yes okay okay so all kinds of uh scriptural references here and uh so I'm glad we resolved that because you had me worried but at least I recognized that there was an error and I found out okay good good okay so yeah what what other ones did you have on your list for next time so I can prepare yeah um this it says that Mary was assumed Body and Soul into heaven yeah so I I mean I don't know that's just one I would I'm a little bit skeptical about not that God can't do it but like you know Elijah went to heaven without Mary it's not a Dogma if she died or she didn't die the consensus of the theologians is that she did die okay but there's some theologians who argue you know she did not die but this is we're not bound one way or the other we can hold either opinion and it's not defined okay so did she die did she not die the church says probably and uh they're good reasons to think that she was allowed to Die the theologians that argue against that they want to say that if she were allowed to die that would be an affront to her dignity and to the Dignity of Christ therefore and their different arguments on both sides um I'm not that worried about that one uh the Assumption to me is just sort of like a natural thing like you take care of your mom like she gets special service you know okay yeah I'm not greatly concerned about that either but I will tell you what started like me thinking about the Mary stuff yeah the the my Catholic friend that I told you she contacted me the day I was thinking about Mary well in her let me read to you her her comment because it it it was a little bit confusing and concerning to me um well okay it's gonna take me too long to find it so but basically she said like I prayed for you at mass today at the mass of like merry crowned Queen of Heaven or something like this okay like it was something about Mary as the Queen of Heaven okay and of course that makes me that terminology makes me a little bit nervous as a Protestant because as you know in the Old Testament there were there was a goddess that was being worshiped called the Queen of Heaven and so I'm like oh my really we're like Mary is the Queen of Heaven like this is like who do you think the demons were imitating and mocking right they're always going to mock Christ and his Saints and the economy of Salvation like if you look at the Satanic rituals they mock the Catholic mass if you look at any any satanic thing even like it's just it's just an inversion of God's good economy of Salvation so I'm not I'm not worried about the similarities in satanic occults and uh Christianity they're there for a reason they're there for a good reason because Jesus because Satan hates Christ and his church Above All Things right yes so it's the same thing with astarte or whatever or Malik or any of these demons in the Old Testament it's like yeah they're there for a reason they're mocking they're trying to mock God they're trying to disparage God they're they're trying to disparage you know uh well and see so David I guess what I would be looking for is a reason to trust that that interpretation because I I also you know there there I could take that and I could say yes this is the way that the church tradition teaches and this is what you know I I should honor Mary and even worship her as you're saying but then I also have all these warnings from scripture about Worship the Lord God Alone yeah and that like and so of course I know you're separating the two different types of worship and you're saying the worship that belongs to God is totally different right so okay I can I can I can say one thing first before you continue it's very important that you understand that every each and every mass is rendering worship to God and to God alone it's the Adoration that's due to God into God alone and if we mention this Sandra that's Andrew St Mary or whatever that's a little footnote like hey it's a little wink to God's creature who is part of God's economy of salvation but no no no no make no mistake about it it's not it's not a mass that's like where we're adoring Mary or even worshiping Mary it's not about the mass it's not about Mary the mass is not about Mary the mass is not about any of the Saints the mass is about God God the Father okay so um and of course Jesus Christ and the role he plays as high priest to to give us that worship of God the true worship of God God the Father and The Trinity as a whole so um yeah I just wanted to make very very clear that when if someone listening to this says oh I heard someone Protestant uh talking about how there was a mass set for Mary or Hamas Queen of Heaven or whatever like that they might get the wrong impression thinking that we have some masses for God some for Mary some for Saint Paul or whatever it's just not the case so it's like when I have a mass set for you I don't think you're God it's just like you know I'm I'm uh praying for you and with you and that's a that's even a lower thing than uh having a mass that's in honor of the Saints who are already in heaven but it's the same sort of thing so I just wanted to make that very very clear before you go on that interpretation of um Mary as the Queen of Heaven when I have this scriptural thing I mean what you're saying could be true but it also could be true that maybe there's some practices that have been inspired you know by demonic influence that you know maybe people have been led into so how would I know well you could just ask Jesus do you want me to love and honor your mother or not just ask him ask Jesus do you want me to love and honor your mother yes or no and you're going to get a clear yes okay and then it becomes a question of how how do I honor your mother right and then yeah you'll get some kind of answer like What's it gonna be what I already do love and honor Jesus's mother right I mean I already you know believe that she was incredibly special I mean God you know God gave us his son through her womb that's that's that's amazing right like I mean and you don't have a problem with God's decision to prepare the womb uh for the second person to Incarnate uh by having an immaculate home for the zygote and the fetus that is the god man Jesus Christ you don't have a problem with God's decision to make sure that this was an immaculate space safe space a safe space for God incarnate you don't have a problem with that surely I don't want to have a problem with it but I don't know if I believe it like I don't know if I believe that Mary was sinless in fact I actually I will say right now I don't believe Mary was sinless okay yeah but I I mean if I had good reasons to believe Mary was sinless then I wouldn't have a problem with that you know how you come to believe in the sinless the sinlessness of Mary how is that understanding the economy of Salvation and understanding the authority of God Almighty the infallible authority of God Almighty and how he came to Earth and he built a church and he gave that church Authority so once you understand that and this is my pitch for the Catholic Church once you understand where Christ's Church is that he built then you accept all the teachings of that church because that church is Jesus Christ so it sounds condescending to say from one Christian to another but you haven't found the church yet you know I mean you are you're not you aren't in the fullness of the church you're um you're part of the mystical body but you are not in a perfect relationship you are in an imperfect relationship with Christ and his church Christ and his church are one flesh so uh it's a deep mystery and I'm not I'm not trying to bash you over the head or anything far from it I'm very excited by your faith and your faith is greater than mine you're a better person than I am but I'm excited for you how much more you will have when you understand the economy of Salvation and how Jesus Christ came to Earth and he actually instituted a church one church not forty thousand churches one church so Christian Unity is at the heart of and and the question of authority is at the very heart of understanding and believing the role of Mary and it's all just going to come in one piece as a flood if ever you uh cross that bridge well thank you David thanks for your time today this was great as you know I'm praying for you and hope you'll continue to pray for me I do yeah like you said I do have to go now and prepare for my next yep wild and crazy guest I've had them on once before and he's a he's quite a guy but who is he um what's his name let me see uh I'll tell you right now won't be long uh will Lawson I think he's Baptist he's quite a character so uh yeah I'm very pleased to talk to you always nice seeing your face and hearing your voice and thank you I hope you come back again uh and if we don't you know if we don't talk between now and then I hope you have a very very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year you too Merry Christmas okay bye God bless you