so we are live i'm here with tj tj how you doing good good thank you david thanks for taking the time and thanks uh for uh we've been doing a bit of email back and forth uh he seemed like a really respectful dignified uh faithful man and uh i get a lot of uh loving uh energy from you in the emails so and from your seeing your face now i see you're uh you're real nice man so uh thanks for uh thanks for watching my channel reaching out to me and uh today we're gonna talk a little bit about your perspective on the church and uh i know you're interested in my critique i did of lefeve and we're gonna talk about that and the society of pius x and all that good stuff so you know where i stand i'm open but i'm also closed to a certain degree because i value the living magisterium and the indefectability of the church has to be intact always until the end of time and you know uh there are the uh four marks of the church the three attributes of the church those are deal breakers for me so we've we've done a little bit of back and forth on email you know where i'm at i i pretty much have an idea where you're at and you're a truth seeker and uh so you're gonna share with me and with my small audience uh what you're passionate about in terms of the faith and the abuses in the liturgy and the crises plural in the church that we've seen over the past decades and i would say centuries right back to the beginning so uh why don't you just talk a little bit about yourself first of all like your faith journey uh really quickly an overview how were you raised how did you come to the catholic faith and how did you end up interested in more traditionalist sort of branches of catholicism just give us an overview of who you are and how you came to be who you are today sure so again thank you for uh having me on your your show here i uh yeah i'm from i'm from michigan so raised in michigan um i was raised you know as a catholic um there was uh i would say for the most part um we were you know novus ordo catholics um you know growing up and you know there was there was a window period of time where i was um going to a traditional lat mass that was probably about the sixth grade as i recall so it was there that i received some great catechetical instruction um you know i was much more interested in playing sports than you know having to uh go order to you know gets what was what turned out to be excellent catechetical instruction and then uh receive my first toy communion there um as time went on um you know i can say that you know we our family you know we didn't uh we kind of went back to uh the the mainstream uh novus ordo church and you know i would say by and large uh growing up it was something that was done more out of um some sort of un uncertain sense of of duty um you know we were obviously we know that there's a uh a church law that we're supposed to attend mass but um it was kind of like going through the motions for the most part um my my mother was very much traditionally oriented and so she had a lot of difficulties with changes that she saw in the church um you know and i would notice things like you know during the time of the uh the kiss of peace um you know my mom would tend not to shake hands and sometimes i would i get like actually upset with her and think you know why why are you doing this you thinking like you feel like you're better than you know than everybody else or whatever the case may be um i kind of went out of my way to try to uh you know go shake a bunch of people's hands at times so i kind of you know i i just growing up i can say that we weren't necessarily part of um a parish that we felt at least i didn't feel like we were um you know uh it was like a family type of a parish community um i would later discover that when i came to traditional circles um so i in college um so i'm gonna jump ahead a bit here in college um i was actually searching really for where the true church was i mean i was um involved in non-denominational bible studies i don't know if you've heard of christian intervarsity but that's a very famous one okay so christian university it's it's it's a big one you'll find on a lot of secular campuses um you know they have an outreach um where you know you can get involved and i you know definitely got involved in in that particular group met some wonderful wonderful people to this day i still remember a gentleman named joel um who you know for example would do things like go find um he found that he found somehow he came across a a boy who had been terribly abused and um just just all kinds of all kinds of ways but i remember him saying um you know i i don't i don't pretend to know what you've been through but i want you to know that you know i'll be i'll be a brother to you um people like that you know when you come across those type of people they make a pretty huge impact on you um and again this is in the context of something that's considered non-denominational so anyway time goes on um that particular summer my freshman year um comes to an end in college and i go to a uh it's a bible a camp you know like a bible camp um again hosted by this same christian interversity while i was there uh i was in one of these prayer and worship sessions and i was called out because my i came to learn that my brother who at that time was cancer so you know that was just i guess to try to put it in a nutshell that really um kind of rocked my world changed my my my world in a very big way um you know i i guess at you know what that what that started me on was a a deeper uh search for you know if i was already kind of looking for where christ's true church was um now now it was becoming more um let's say urgent and i remember when i went home um after that trip because this is at the end of the right at the end of college it's it's you know early may or whatever um i met my aunt my dear aunt maria uh who kindly invited me to um to go to a mass she invited me to go to a mass because i was asking questions that she said you know protestants are are won't to ask and that was basically questions like why do we pray to mary during the course of that that year i had been challenged on that same question and i i really didn't have an answer you know a lot of times like i remember one time trying to answer that question and all i did was uh just started kind of reciting the hail mary because i was trying to think through how to answer the question you know what i mean so um anyway my aunt kind of just called me out on that and said you know that's that's a question that a lot of times protestants will ask i can tell that you've been around a lot of protestants um and then she kind of i don't know in some ways it made me feel uh i don't know a little bit demeaned but at the same time she had a good intention at heart and she wanted me to come you know back to the back to the faith um and so we went to an outdoor mess it was taylor michigan this would be um and it was actually a russian orthodox priest that was offering the mass again under it it was outdoor unpretent um it had been a bit you know it was it was raining it looked a bit foreboding um and at one point um during the course of the mass he actually spoke and i believe this was some sometime during before the consecration he was saying that no matter what happens here no matter if there was somebody here that was to all of a sudden sprout a leg that didn't have a leg he said the the greatest miracle that takes place happens during the time of the consecration when jesus becomes present on our on our altars and you know i guess for me it was like to hear that in the context of my brothers you know having cancer he wasn't with us it was just my aunt and i that were at this mass in taylor michigan um it was powerful um there was there's there's more to this to this particular story uh and and i don't share this often but but what ended up happening afterwards was something that i consider i mean um an extraordinary kind of a grace that i certainly haven't had since but um there was a lady who was there again this is during the course of maybe it's communion time or i don't know exactly when but she starts to begin to talk about how our lady will be present here with us she will she's she's she's going to appear you know to us and i'm i'm listening what what i what i can tell you that i saw was um when you looked up in the sky there came a point where people were all looking up because the sky was such that you could look at the sun and you could look at it steadfastly without having you know like it's coming no any problem whatever yeah it was it was like looking at a moon like looking at the moon you know um the the you know so so clearly the you know some of the clouds had dissipated they've kind of gone their separate ways or whatever but you know it's still um it was it was it was such where you could look at the sun and then it started to kind of flash in the sky you know kind of flashing um in place then it began to do um like circles um and but not exactly in place i mean kind of like still maybe within a certain radius but certainly going around yeah well i mean it was it was yeah something something a gyrating something like five but and and so thank you because that's what that's what i ended up learning about subsequently i learned more about fatima and yeah it's it's basically what is described as you know what took place at fatima if you were to call and and again um i did this i did this actually a year or two ago because i'm just thinking i was thinking to myself like what i saw i thought i was going to see on national new york world news or something like to me it was so evident that something extraordinary had happened uh the sun doesn't doesn't do that um that i i thought that this was gonna be something that i was gonna be able to go back and look on the news and it was going to be reported and everything it wasn't um one other thing of note though during the course of the time that i was there and probably my aunt had talked with this russian orthodox priest um you know some time beforehand but during the course of while some of this was going on uh the priest actually walked around to where we were and then he said to to me he said um do you see how much your your mother loves you the blessed mother you see how much she loves you and i mean you know all of these things coming together you know the eucharist the blessed mother i mean the fact that it was the blessed mother who was being uh you know to whom this is being attributed is her message to us um her sign to us all kind of helped coalesce to make me realize that yes the true faith is the catholic faith now i had no real distinctions between what was orthodox versus what was catholic you know to me it was this was i was at a mass now granted this mass was was celebrated in a very uh a very reverent way in a way that was quite you know quite solemn um though though it were just one priest you know that was there i shouldn't say solomon in the sense of lots of ministers it was just you know him offering the mass but doing it in a way that was reverent all of that had a profound impact anyway i i i point this out um because certainly that was a point at which again the trajectory of my my life and my focus um was now clearly my conviction was clear that the true faith is this catholic faith the faith of jesus christ um and and so i i guess from there i was able to um kind of withstand uh stand it was able to to bear a lot of the the hardships that would have what would come in the next year and a half um as my brother's condition worsened you know he would end up losing his leg um he his his other leg had to be um like uh say stiffened it was locked in place um because the cancer had spread to that one and then the the cancer also spread to his lungs um at the end of his life uh towards the end he was rushed to a hospital and uh my my father had received i think just some signal graces in this whole you know this whole um ordeal um but he he he would cry out to god he was he at one point because he couldn't breathe and he said almighty god help me um in in kind of a desperation and this is before he was then transferred to another hospital while he was at this other hospital um my father also shared with with us that he at one point while my brother was in icu my dad was just outside kind of you know um he said he was trying to contain him you know trying to uh hold it together and and uh and uh he heard my brother talking and he at first my dad thought he was talking to him and he said um oh yeah i know who you are you're you're mary um and so i mean there was some kind of a conversation my dad again witnessed that little bit you know my dad didn't see the blessed virgin mary um but my my my brother must have been seeing her um and because he was certainly conversing and talking with her now this is again i'm by this by this point um we've rolled into like another year so this is again this is towards the end of my brother's uh you know year and a half battle with cancer uh from the time he was diagnosed so now i'm kind of into my end of my uh i guess it would be maybe mid to end of my sophomore year it's my second year in a program at western michigan university um and um and at the at the near the very end uh my brother did receive uh last rites from a traditional uh catholic priest of the society of saint pius and tenth um by this time um i had been going to a you know this a little traditional mass on the invitation of my my aunt um and uh this particular priest had come in and he offered the traditional right rights uh to my little brother and and i again it was in latin i didn't know at that time certainly i didn't know the words that were being spoken um i didn't hear my brother say this exactly but i think my mother or someone in the room did he said father you're pr your your words are beautiful now my brother was on a lot of morphine too i don't know like he's he's 11 year old um but he's perceiving something god is giving him something all i know with what i felt in that moment was a profound peace because up to that point building up to this point um i can say that i was very worried about this and that in exams and you know like just things that are more like you know preoccupations of of of my own my own little world but um and and then also obviously being concerned about him as he's getting closer to what looks like a you know his he could die um and in fact he did die my father probably about a day and a half later uh my my father and i were um just my dad was kind of had an arm around andrew and uh you know just right next to him and and i was i was at the a chair kind of on the other side of the bed sleeping over there and then my dad i remember it was about three o'clock in the morning uh november third and he said he said tj he said he's he's gone you know and that was that was it um i remember praying the rosary on the way back home but but i i remember being profoundly at peace just profoundly at peace um and and uh you know at this point in my journey i had i had come i've been looking more and more for um let's say conservative uh catholicism you know again that year before is what i had realized the true church is the catholic church um but you know i i was also realizing all too that uh cert you know dif in different venues where the mass was offered let's say at your um you know your your college parish uh it's gonna look one way versus when you go downtown to the cathedral um where maybe you only have a handful of elderly people that are coming together but it's much more i found to be much more conservative so my it seemed to me as i was praying the rosary as i was coming more and more into a knowledge of the faith um that i was just drawn to what was more traditional until the time as i say my aunt had invited me to um a traditional latin mass where yes the um the society saint pius the tenth was servicing just a rinky dink little chapel in grand rapids um but but what i noticed there was the reverence for the blessed sacrament um and and also um the the modesty of the young ladies that was another thing that struck me beautiful young ladies just modestly attired uh those two things at that time in my life were very powerful um and and and by the way the the same catechism teacher that i had had you know when i was in sixth grade or whatever she was still there like by this time it acquired a little church but this is the same catechism teacher and i'll tell you what she was just no bones i mean she just told you the faith and she taught it and and actually was very instrumental in helping me to develop a devotion to the blessed mother um according to the um you know that which is outlined by saint louis de montfort yeah amazing so yeah so you uh you named your son after your brother is that correct that's right yes i did yes yeah nice nice wow do you have any other siblings i have yes i have a sister how she don't have a sister she's she seems she seems well um she has uh she has a one one child also um well i mean so here's the thing and this is part of what i feel like david is is really at the heart of a lot of this is like you know in our family especially with what happened in our own situation with my brother andrew like you know in those moments you have to make a decision to draw closer to god upon the invitation the graces that he's giving in that moment um and or or or sometimes sometimes that doesn't happen where you don't you don't draw closer and i think these sorts of crises um can be the occasion when um one chooses an alternate route you know and obviously there's only one other you know there's a kind of only one other way um so without judging necessarily like you know her state of soul and that kind of thing she's clearly not like on the same path let's say of of having come closer to the faith we've had some good discussions in the past um but you know right now it's it's a it's a prayer intention so i i would since you ask um i i ask for your prayers for for my dear sister yes um her name is gina so regina yes and for your whole family and um you know you know i do have that perpetual mass being said for you every day until the end of time and that covers you your kids your parents your siblings so it's uh it's a nice nice uh way to be inundated with graces graces for conversion and of course we all need ongoing conversion every day every moment of every day to get closer to god but yeah i i i sympathize with you i'm the only one in my family who's catholic i converted in 2009 and um it's uh but i always think about christ how he said the first should we last and then actually first and there's the 11th hour worker that gets the same wage and all these sorts of things like god god works in mysterious ways and he uh he's not worried about the what looks to us like a really scary journey like he's he's in control and everyone who's supposed to end up in heaven ends up in heaven and sadly those who ultimately will say no god already knows which ones are ultimately going to say no end up in hell i hope i hope it's a fringe minority but all of the saints seem to indicate that it's a majority of people that go to hell i don't know i i just uh hope and pray for the best and i know god wants every man to be saved so yes yeah yeah and in light of that too you know there's there is this notion too of us being a mystical body and how we can obviously help one another with our prayers and sacrifices and you know when you think of yes like it's it's a kind of a it's a daunting kind of a consideration but it is it is salutary also that you know our lady to kind of piggyback off what you were saying i mean she did she did say that many souls go to hell because there's no one to pray and sacrifice for them um you know and so you just come to realize like um yes christ is you know the absolute mediator right either he's the one that principally is the source of all grace but at the same time we as mystical members are somehow mysteriously like involved in a distribution thereof you know in a very practical and concrete way um you know to whom much is given much is required yeah it's a heavy responsibility but i guess it's that instrumentality of god and you see that most clearly clearly in the great saints how they are instruments of god and they know their own unworthiness and they know their sinfulness and they allow them the difference between them and us well i'm not you know present company included i don't know you might be a great saint but um the difference between the great saints and me is they say yes they uh they um love god more than they love themselves and they love god's will more than they love their own will and then they become instruments of god that's that's the only difference and you and i can do that uh it just it's it takes another level of faith like you and i have faith i think your faith is probably stronger than mine but if we were able to there's nothing stopping us right now from manifesting the greatness of the greatest saints it just takes a leap of faith it takes courage and of course it takes a lot of grace and a lot of uh you know commitment to grace to cooperate fully with the grace no matter what and um you know it's it is a point of shame for me that i'm not um converting everyone i come into physical contact with or proximity with the way the great saints you know often did but even the great saints they were surrounded by people who did not convert right so it's very mysterious it's very mysterious but then again hundreds of years later a sinner like myself can pick up a book by one of these great saints like saint louis iv and we can be converted so it's uh it's very very mysterious the economy of salvation and um we're going to be celebrating for all eternity the the justice the mercy the goodness of god and how he gave us this opportunity to know him and to love him and to serve him so yeah it's all very exciting but again like you emphasize the uh the necessity to pray i'm reading saint alphonsus lagree one of my favorite saints i've got his complete works it's going to take me 300 hours to read it but um he repeats himself a lot and one of the things he emphasizes is if you want to be if you pray you'll certainly be saved and if you don't pray you'll certainly be damned and not only you not only you but like you were saying uh our lady said that uh many souls are lost because others aren't there for them they're not praying for them so we we need to pray and pray without ceasing so do you want to dive right in thank you for the introduction do you want to dive right in now to some of your concerns with uh liturgical abuse and other abuses and the crises and i don't i don't know which rabbit hole you want to go down or if you want to just talk about talk about tradition generally or talk about um archbishop lefebvre or where you want to start it's entirely up to you i know you have a little presentation here and we will we will i will have you back so that we can dig deeper but today's just sort of getting our feet wet okay okay yeah sure um and again thank you for uh for allowing me to be able to kind of share this with you it's true that you can go down lots of different rabbit holes there's so many aspects that i feel like uh well that are part and parcel of the crisis in the church um trying to distill where the can the biggest uh errors are is is uh is is is a great work of i guess an ongoing work um that i think you know as is the society the same highest the tenth is trying to do in terms of just keeping with tradition um they consider themselves a band of rebuilders to try to maintain the traditions of the church um in a in a world that looks like is is going further and further away in a church that seems to also in in many regards in regards to the human element um is kind of taking that same sort of path unfortunately so the society is providentially um there to kind of again not to say that they are the church but to try to hold to what the church has always done and then um to be able to uh supply eventually um you know the church with with good and holy priests um according to the age-old traditions now i i'm gonna start off if you don't mind um i'm gonna jump ahead a little bit here because i want to read a little bit of a declaration which we'll get into and this is archbishop lethev he started his society in 1970 again because there were a lot of uh say seminarian there were a number of seminarians that had come to him um concerned about getting a true priestly formation they were going to various seminaries and finding that there was uh heterodox and this is being kind of you know generous here but heterodox sorts of views that were being pushed um on them and uh they knew the archbishop who was basically in a position of retirement so he had come um after an illustrious career in africa i mean being um you know just to look at some of the things that he had done there was was it was amazing in terms of what god was able to do to say through him in africa um but now after you know this career and you know in is in africa and now he's retired there are young men that are coming to him asking for help to be trained um in a good in the proper in a proper way to become priests um anyway so i'll kind of i'll kind of jump into um some of the concerns um this is to back up just a little bit here but there's obviously the new masses come out can i interrupt for one second can you yes uh on the left of your powerpoint is that powerpoint there's there's a there's a if you hover over the barrier between the two zones on the far left you can drag you can drag it over drag everything over to the right so hover over the bar you see that you see the uh go go a little bit to the right go to the right no the other way yeah the barrier yeah yeah oh you had it the barrier in between hover move around move around no no move around until you see the arrow going left and right so just go on the line beside yeah yeah yeah now drag it to the right please to make it smaller yeah exactly okay keep going right there okay that's good because on my screen and what the people are seeing at home uh they weren't able to see the text on the left hand side so now they can see it okay sorry for that administrative intrusion but you can you can continue from here so now people can see all of the text okay okay um and are you are you seeing over here by chance david is this is what you're seeing over here or are you seeing over here i can i can see that i can see just a part of that i can't see all of that but that's less important i'll just focus on the main screen that you have open right here like the promulgation of the novus ordo institutio i see i see okay yep yep yep so yeah in in in the institution of the new mass the aspect of supper uh supersede sacrifices i have written there um so the notion of the sacrifice as it was um you know traditionally understood uh session 22 of the council of trent is very different from the from what the novus ordo tends to emphasize um so the this per this picture here is a picture of archbishop uh annabelle bunimi who was regarded as the chief architect of the novus ordo he was in charge of a commission called the concilium and they were responsible for implementing changes which i believe were um in in some way shape shape or form from vatican ii documents inspired by the constitution synchro sanctum concilium um so basically there's an iron law which states that the law of of praying influences our law of believing lexa randy likes credentials kind of how it's said in latin and so this idea that um you know you've got such a radical change in terms of of orientation again supper and sacrifice is a very different and even just the way people are oriented at mass priests facing the people versus everyone together facing in the liturgical east um you know that's the traditional at mass obviously that's not to say that you can't get that kind of uh uh odd orientem orientation in the in the novus ordo but it's far it's fewer and far between and it actually does tell you something a little bit about what the um those who created who are behind these changes wanted to and uh what wanted to um you know i guess you say the ambiance that they wanted to establish which is a very different uh again orientation uh from what the church had traditionally been accustomed to so um what in in in 69 also so this is again this is still a little bit of backup before the society had started but one thing that did happen um after the promulgation of the novus ordo mass was and again the promulgation doesn't happen until 1970. so the the institutional rallies okay that's really just um kind of the the forward to what is going to be the blueprint for um what's going to be a protestantized mass now that might seem a little bit harsh um but the the fact that you did have protestant observers who although they didn't have an official capacity in terms of voting and that sort of thing um michael davies actually talks about this he writes very extensively on the liturgical changes and he did um reach out to one of them and asked what sort of a you know um interaction did you have what sort of an influence did you have and behind the scenes their influence was um was very much um uh it it was something that when they took into account to the point where um you know archbishop annabel bernini would state that the traditional i'm sorry that the new mass should be something that would um have no shadow of of um of a stumbling block for our separated brethren so um the new masses is as cardinal taviani would state um it's reduced to the supper as we talked about and it characterizes the supper as an assembly presided over by a priest it is a memorial of the lord to recall what he did on holy thursday so that's what pope paul vi had given his signature to now it's true that this particular institutional generalist will have to be corrected and it's largely on account of something like the otavi you know intervention or those who would raise their voices against the fact of how this is defined is very very different from the way the council of trent would define the mass and so what otaviani would state was that none of this implies the real presence the reality of the sacrifice um the sacramental function of the priest who consecrates you have this kind of idea of the the priesthood of the faithful being kind of mixed with the priest um the priest is almost you know he's the the leader of the assembly um this is the kind of notion that comes out of of the um you know with with the advent of the new mass and then also the intrinsic value of the eucharistic sacrifice independent of the assembly so these are some of the things that he cites as being problematic and again this is the formation that's going to be the say the bread and butter uh for seminarians um in the wake of the second vatican council yeah can i just interrupt uh yeah i want to emphasize with you and my listeners i think they already know this um that if you read the documents of vatican 2 it's very clear that they are emphasizing all those points that you think are neglected by the novus ordo mass and it may be the case that uh the impression that's given the emphasis that's given and the obviously not to mention the abuses that have just been rampant uh they are helping satan to win souls for hell but if you love the faith if you love christ and his church you will find out what the church teaches and you will you will not want to denigrate the the sanctity of the mass or downplay the element the uh the idea of the sacrifice which is very strongly emphasized in the documents of vatican ii which i think you've read have you read all 16 documents so i can say i have not read all 16 documents so that's definitely something where i should do my due diligence in that regard what i do know though is you know and but keep no keep going david no i was done i was done i was done i'm just saying that i'm well aware i'm well aware and i'm very sympathetic to you um but i'm also i've also read the documents and i've uh i i i see i interpret everything with the hermeneutic of continuity and i read the documents of trent i read the documents of vatican one i read the documents of vatican ii you know um so i think that uh catholics who are on fire for the faith have to be educated it's just it's a necessity right we need to read this we need to be familiar with the scriptures read the scriptures regularly pray without ceasing all these sorts of things one thing i will ask before we go on is that famous question i asked you by email or in the comments i don't remember now but who needs the sspx when we have the fraternity of saint peter the priestly fraternity of saint peter the fssp what's your short answer to that oh it's not a short answer but can i quickly um interject david in regards to the second council i wanted to affirm something that you said and that was that yes you find these traditional statements that are absolutely in there and some of the most beautiful like say statements in regards to um aspects of the church and things that you know you can find beautiful statements at home and gentium 25 for example um so um the problem is is that there are also things that you can have something that's stated beautifully but then you have other things that are inserted there that are part of the documents which undermine what may have just been said a paragraph or or two beforehand um and so these are considered to be like time bombs um where liberal parity and there are there these these these parity would be those experts that were at the council there was you know constellations of them around the bishops that were there these were the experts um who were theologically you know theologians um advising the bishops but many of them for example shilobex kongar um some of these uh some of these uh you know i guess infamous more infamous names um who were theologians and progressive theologians they knew and they they they this is on record we knew what we would do with those phrases after the council yeah so there's a there you have to we have to understand that even even though there are beautiful statements that are put in there in regards to matters of faith there's that there you'll find something about sacrifice you'll find this and that nonetheless there are revolutionary principles which are embedded in the documents themselves which perhaps you and i could look at we could say um i can i can interpret that in a very catholic way but then you take you take chanu you take shilobex you take kongar you take who i mean name your name your progressive theologian um and you and what will end up happening is those time bombs become a way in which revolution is is is uh is enacted in the church now liturgically liturgically the mechanism is most effective because this is where most people are going most people aren't reading the the documents of them too like you have done um you know most people are going to mass on sunday they're trying to fulfill their sunday obligation if if they stay in the church but as we know as we know pope john paul ii you know laments in 2003 in his his document ecclesia at europa where we're experiencing a silent apostasy and i mean it's it's a hemorrhaging of people that have left the church yeah um i've got a little book here i mean it's just a little reference guide um it's called index of catholic indicators holding index in front of your fa in front of your face because it disappears otherwise uh it's oh okay it flashed on and off it disappears but uh we got a flashlight okay index of catholic index of leading catholic indicators the church since vatican ii and the man just goes through here but you don't need a book like this you can go and you can go into your latest pew research polls and i can cite for you all kinds of information i mean you can do it yourself right um there's i mean what's the what's the latest like the eucharist right so two-thirds and that's this is being slightly generous but i mean nearly 70 percent of people who go to mass don't believe that jesus christ is truly body blood soul and divinity present in the blessed sacrament i if you would have asked me that before you know chiricahua 2 1997 i probably wouldn't have had a ready answer for you i wouldn't have known what to tell you yeah you know what i mean scary so i mean okay but but that's all but but as far as your question in regards to why why have the you know why do we need the sspx if we don't uh you know if we have the fraternity okay first of all first of all first of all was the fssp born out of the sspx is that what happened yeah because listen so right now we're in 1975. there's no one else to turn to i mean you might have some independent priests here and there but the only organized society institute that's offering the traditional latin mass and trying to train priests is the society of saint pius the tenth i stand to be corrected on that but certainly the fraternity of saint peter does not come into existence until after you know archbishop lefebvre um consecrates the four bishops right that day 30th 1988 um and what and what he recognized and what i believe too was operation survival for tradition i mean that's what's happening and i mean the whole purpose of the presentation is to try to build up to the point where you know you you may not agree with me completely um on you know or maybe hardly out on much of this but but i can tell you that this is the optic that it seems to make the most sense to me and what we're doing obviously too is i mean this is fida's uh queren's intellect this is faith seeking understanding i'm trying to make sense of a crisis that has taken place um in the archbishops you know what this what what the society stands for what they've done is they've stood in the you know kind of in the brink and and they've they put them they've they've been the ones that have recognized the gravity of the crisis and they've given a proportionate response and it has to come through seminaries it has to come through holy priests it has to come through a training which is going to ensure that faithful get sacraments that are not you know um you know questionable yeah so i said that yeah go ahead i just excuse me i just read uh wikipedia if you trust wikipedia they said in 1988 12 sspx priests uh formed the fssp because they weren't happy with the um what's you might know something about this the a cone consecrate a cone consecration so that must be consecrations that took place in at a place called acon maybe in switzerland close switzerland here's a picture of it right here can you see this right here ah okay okay it's a famous place for you oh it's it's a it's it's uh yeah it's a very famous place okay first time the world of tradition okay okay so it seems to me it seems to me that everyone should have just flooded into the fssp and left the sspx behind because it gives unity with the living magisterium that's how it seems to me with a naive lack of education about everything in traditional catholicism but that's just my sort of rough take as a an ignorant outsider everyone should have just flooded in like we have a way back to the living magisterium let's all go but that didn't happen here's well in here no that didn't happen and i guess here's the other thing too is there are issues at stake here too which are part and parcel that are connected to vatican ii um you know i was talking about revolutionary principles but you know what i said you know what is gratuitously affirmed can be gratuitously denied you know you haven't asked me for any like okay what are these revolutionary principles i imagine you're going to because i know you're very intent and keen upon making sure that you understand um so as far as as far as you know as far as this whole the society what they what they have been trying to do is to try to hold to the traditional faith traditional sacraments and to be able to offer that for the salvation of souls really and they don't necessarily impose themselves they go where people are asking and you're basically crying out for for help um now what the the i guess what has to happen is people have to come to a recognition that there is a crisis in the church and that crisis is coming from um you know let's say as it did in the air time of the area in heresy it's coming from um the human element in hierarchical positions who are not guiding the the bark of peter they're not guiding the church in the right way again you were talking about in defectibility earlier and you know the society of saint paul's the tenth myself and i'm no spokesman for the society all but i can say that they would say amen absolutely to the fact that there is you know the church is indefectable you know the gates of hell will not prevail against her um but right now the gates of hell are sure doing you know their damness to be able to try to do something you know that's going to rock the boat in such a way as to try to sink it they're not going to i mean but um that's all to say that um you know the society has a history and this is part and parcel of kind of what i was trying to get back in you know in regards to 75 my question to people and i've even done this right called in catholic answers and i've asked why was the society of saint pius the tenth why were they uh suppressed out of canonical existence they had a normal uh canonical regularly canonically um approved seminary um and and it was it was doing good work for the church um so 1970 is when it started 71 they get a letter of praise from cardinal wright from the vatican um so things are going well but there are those bishops in france in particular who are seeing the good fruits and the fact that you have a seminary now which is gaining seminarians while all of their seminaries are being emptied um we got to ask ourselves a question why are the modern seminaries empty you know um so so that's at least a question i'm gonna throw out there but what but what they see is okay the eddie cohn where they're offering the traditional lat mass they have vocations lots of vocations and as the years are going on they're getting more and more in 1972 they hold a meeting in lords where they in through some kind of let's say a collegial um meeting you know because oftentimes of course you have your um you know you've got your uh like the usccb here right they've got something like that in in france so they've they've got their uh they come together for these meetings but one of the things that they stated was that they would not accept priests to be incarnated into any of the diocese in france that come from this particular seminary well why and so that but the point the point here is is that there are bishops that are are upset about this particular seminary being allowed to exist so what they end up doing is they it seems um are able to get the ear of of someone in the vatican namely um is the secretary of state whose cardinal velo cardo velou is uh you know is is very instrumental in getting the society to be um put out of canonical existence but um let me just share with you um a little bit about how that happened so there's an apostolic visitation which is which takes place in 1964. so there's two people that come cardinal disc camps and and enclan monsignor onklin and they they visit the seminary etikone they they're while the during the course of their time that they're there they don't attend any of the masses um they they express doubts concerning the traditional concept of christ's resurrection um a denial of immutable truth and then they you know express their ideas that there's going to be a married clergy at some point you know that's just inevitable um so the archbishop is hearing these apostolic visitors talk about that now um he goes on to write a declaration okay and this declaration would be the only grounds that would be used to close down the seminary and to close down and put the society of saint pie's attempt out of canonical existence he begins by saying we hold firmly with all our heart with all our mind to catholic rome guardian of the catholic faith and of the traditions necessary to the maintenance of this faith to eternal rome mistress of wisdom and truth we refuse on the other hand and have always refused to follow the realm of neo-modernist and neo-protestant tendencies which became clearly manifest during the second vatican council and after the council in all the reforms was issued from it this particular declaration goes on in i'm not going to read the whole thing but basically it's on it's taking one declaration that he writes and i'll i'll be i'll just say that when you read the declaration i would i read the declaration um it's so it's it's one of these kinds of documents that's put out there that helps to make sense of so much in in a few words um but it really does hit at the crisis that is being of that is afflicting the church and he does say yes these these neo-modernist and neo-protestant tendencies which were manifest during the second vatican council after the council and all the reforms which issued from it i mean communion in the hand for example i mean this sort of thing this was this started out as an abuse and and then it was just permitted permitted permitted to the point where finally the the vatican said okay you can have communion in the hand but this started out as an abuse yeah and bishops were the ones that were perpetuating these abuse especially in the dutch countries um the netherlands that kind of area um they're they're infamous for the another thing called the dutch catechism which was i mean quasi-heretical yeah you know so it's like why are these things allowed to happen and nothing happens to these progressive bishops um and then in the meantime all archbishop lefebvre is trying to do is in the midst of this experimental liturgical experimentation he's asking to be able to hold the experiment of tradition this is what he's asking for um up to this point he doesn't have to ask for it but what ends up coming down the pike here is these particular he there's an ad hoc commission of cardinals that summon the archbishop for a quote-unquote discussion um but this is no discussion at all so he goes two times he goes march 13th i'm sorry he goes uh february 13th and then march third 1975 he meets with them um and and basically from start to finish they're trying to basically tell him that he's uh you know disobedient to the pope he's you know he's he's being um you know like i guess you know uh rebellious his rebellious right yeah i mean and everything is based off of this declaration yeah and so based upon based upon that declaration this ad hoc commission of cardinals then tells uh the local ordinary bishop many so this is bishop meme here that um that he has the power to withdraw all the acts and concessions granted by his predecessor uh in agreement with the holy see so i'll stop right there because what ends up happening the whole course of this this these two discussions he finds out archbishop finds out that he was actually on trial and that he's being condemned in in a sense in a sense without really um no matter what he says he says it was in vain that i tried to formulate arguments nothing was done to try to uh you know accompany me in any way shape or form or try to see my point of view uh you know this this discussion was actually like more like a kangaroo court you might say um and so he found himself condemned before really having had a hearing yeah kind of a formality we are i i wonder if you can because i'm gonna have to leave here shortly it's been approaching one hour i will have you back i'm wondering if there's a nice way for you to wrap this up and in the meantime i will ask one question sort of reiterating the my basic point which is that this is all very interesting it's a little bit like a soap opera and it's always messy if you read the history of the councils the history of the popes it's always messy it's always a soap opera but none of it is protected by the holy spirit except for the dogmas and those those teachings and the of course the four marks and the three attributes so it's all really interesting but it's all really irrelevant to me because we have the fssp what don't you like about the fssp when you compare it with the sspx okay um i guess i can try to just maybe get to uh some of the key issues here yeah but remember you're gonna come back right well i'm sorry if it's to answer my question great but don't feel you need to rush any of your presentation because you will come back okay okay i guess i guess as far as the fraternity of saint peter um i i know of uh you know several uh fraternity of st peter priests who are wonderful exemplary um they're they and they do wonderful work um one of the i guess one of the key differences uh between the society of saint pius the tenth and them um is that in the you know the they the the concern regarding the second vatican ii uh sec the second vatican ii documents um the council documents um in regards to things like ecumenism uh collegiality dialogue um okay so basically vatican you you you personally reject vatican ii so did archbishop lefebvre and so do most people in the sspx they reject vatican too you reject vatican ii and that's why you can't embrace fully the fssp is that putting it in a nutshell does that fit um so the errors of vatican ii i would say are to be distinguished from the things that are as you pointed out uh good in in the documents traditional content yeah they're in but what would prevent you what would prevent you from adopting a hermeneutic of continuity even though you know god is giving them enough rope to the modernist enough rope to hang themselves you know that but there are contradictions apparent contradictions in the bible so god gives us all enough rope to hang ourselves with heresy and modernism and any other heresy so that's not the issue like there's stumbling stones in the bible and jesus christ himself is a stumbling stone so that's a moot point the stumbling stones are a moot point and it is a scandal it's a sin to cause scandal but it's also sin to submit to scandal or to be scandalized by scandal so we need to have faith in christ and his church and use that hermeneutic of continuity that's what i would say to you i would say forget about the sspx come on board with the living magisterium and embrace vatican ii because it's a real council it's an ecumenical council okay but those things which are not infallible for example like if i was to ask you in regards to the the nature of the church um you know this is one among other things right but you know the vatican ii as i understand it david was supposed to kind of help us to speak to the common person um in such a way that it was clear understandable um not make things more complicated right so um you know when you say something like the church of christ subsists in the catholic church yeah is it not easier to say the catholic church is the church no well it's easier but it's not it's not as useful it's not as useful subsist i spent i spent time i spent a lot of time not a lot of time but i spent a moderate amount of time examining the choice the word choice of subsists in and it has to do it has everything to do with the potential uh those who have the potential to get the faith and to get into the state of grace okay because those who ultimately are not going to hell are all going to heaven and they all have at least the potential to have the faith and to get into the state of grace but the three categories the first category those who have the faith and are in the state of grace the second category they have the faith but they're not in the state of grace and uh in that category we have these catholics in name only who don't even believe in the real presence right um and then in the third category of the members of christ are those who merely have the potential to get the faith and get in the state of grace so that's why we use the word subsists in because there's this there's this tendency for christ to draw his sheep to himself and ultimately they will recognize his voice they will get into the ark they will be saved that's the exciting part about vatican ii that's one of the most exciting things in the documents of vatican ii is that word subsists in it's what i'm very very excited about that and it's very very catholic and uh there's no argument that can be made about against it unless you want to twist it and uh pervert it but i mean no it's a wholesome wholesome word choice and uh i think the holy spirit was at work in vatican ii and uh the ambiguities that were allowed by the holy spirit to enter into the wording the phrasing and of course all the modernists and liberals and freemasons that were laughing thinking that they'd you know put one over on god uh they're wrong they're you know the enemies of christ they don't have a happy outcome unless they repent so i mean the the analogy i like to make is with the the holy scriptures the bible there are plenty of opportunities to rebel and there are plenty of opportunities if you want to find a stumbling stone if you want to find contradiction or at least apparent contradiction uh the example i like to use is marriage i mean uh divorce moses said it was okay jesus said no that was a concession so there will always be a opportunity to apply whatever hermeneutic you want to use whatever lens whatever filter you want to use but the essential and most important thing is if you love christ you love his church and if you love his church you'll obey the church and you will not rebel against the church so my concern for you and all those in the sspx is that you're in a mode of rebellion and i still feel that uh archbishop lefebvre was in rebellion against christ in his church and i want to give you a chance to come back and convince me otherwise you give me lots of links to uh to review and i've reviewed a couple of them but we're going to have to have a deeper discussion about this but to wrap this up because i do have to go now i'm going to give you the floor you can talk for two minutes five minutes as long as you want just to sort of wrap up and get the final word and to prepare us uh for when you come back uh in a week or two whatever it is okay no thank you um and i i you know i guess as far as the church subsisting in the catholic church versus you know what was said before um the church taught in the you know you were asking me like well what's the i guess what's the problem with uh that you know the catholic church subsists in the uh church of christ or vice versa i forget which how it goes you may be able to help me with that but um one is a broader extension than the other it seems and as far as then you know being clear on what the church of christ is potentially versus what is in actual fact what is an act that's true god sees from all eternity i understand that you know and that potentially there's all kinds of things that could be possibly but what we have to be able to understand is this is not how the church talked about her nature beforehand and you know one quick answer to your question is you have to you have to try to reconcile that with mr chi corporis by pius xii which says something very very different and you can go to the catholic encyclopedia on this which speaks about this particular encyclical and it does not make provision for the sorts of potentialities that subsist in does subsisting in muddies the waters to the extent that you don't really um you talk about ecclesial communities you talk about these different people that yes have certain aspects of things that belong to the one true church of jesus christ um but the the problem with that is that it opens up this whole this this is this is where it gets into the ecumenical dimension which is really part of the part and parcel of the thrust of the real i would say probably the main error that we have coming out of vatican ii is this acumenism or this acumenical um dialogue which you know i mean if you're if for us again we could probably try to look at that and say well that's just evangelization and we're just trying to bring people back to the to the church of christ well um the problem there is is that again you go to chilebex you go to some of these other um modernist theologians and they've got a very different idea about what that means and so in practice i'm talking about what's seen in practice and again by their fruits you will know them right by their fruits you will know them and what has happened what has been allowed to happen it seems in the church is that this ecumenical dialogue i mean we saw assisi right and the problem with assisi is is i mean archbishop lefeve looked at that and said this is a grave scandal and we can't we can't diminish you know the popular conception of what that just that photo op does for people when they look at that so this is it's a very different orientation kissing the quran is how we're talking about do you think well i mean there's kissing the current one is putting the statue of buddha up on the altar this is at a cc but then at assisi also um you have uh you know this panoply of of religious leaders that are standing up on the same plane here's a picture right here i mean i've i've added this little picture at the top here but basically you've got here at assisi all these various different religious leaders who are coming together to pray to whom this is the question of archbishop what god will they pray to yeah why are they so so what's the what's the purpose behind this um you know pope john paul ii would say that the the right key to the teaching of vatican ii the church is the sacrament of unity mankind um is is kind of like this idea of the seeds of the word that lie hidden among all religions agentes is where that comes from um but basically he goes on to say like this here is a is a is a catechism clear to everybody about what the church means to do when it does a humanism it's it's a it's a it's a object lesson it is a catechism clear to all and the thing is is this is a very different catechism than what we had before the council so i would leave it at that yeah okay we have so much to discuss uh just one really quick question do you believe that uh canonizations of saints are infallible and if you do believe that does that mean you think that saint john paul ii is actually a saint i am not going to judge on the matters internal that's god's judgment as far as the canonization question though i know that the criteria for that have been let's say lightened um since before i don't know exactly when it changed but it's much easier to become a saint in the say the the novus ordo structure than it was beforehand so i'll leave it at that okay we have so much to discuss i really look forward to having you back i hope you come back like uh next week or the week after let's not let it go too long or we'll sort of forget forget what we've been talking about and you have a lot of slides there i can see i have a lot of slides a lot of information to get through so uh i hope i didn't interrupt you too much but when it was important to me i just wanted to stop you and ask you questions or or sort of affirm my position because i don't want people on my channel thinking i'm spx all of a sudden right right yep so thank you so much i really appreciate uh your time and i appreciate your friendship your prayers for me and mine and i'll be praying for you and yours thank you take care of yourself thank you bye