welcome back everybody to The Prodigal podcast I am your host Next Top Hauser I'm your very excited host because we've got one heck of an episode coming toward you today episode five with Mr Matthew Murdock uh this is the only uncensored unhinged unfiltered Unchained podcast on the belief and existence of God that you'll find on the internet I don't hold back and I encourage you not to hold back either because this is real stuff this is what really matters what happens the moment after you close your eyes for the last time what you think happens determines how you live every second of your life up until that point it's a fact whether or not you realize it and so I talk about that because it matters to me I'm making a movie about it it's called The Prodigal and I'm really excited to announce that I've just begun principal photography for those non-filmakers out there principal photography means we've actually pressed record we've actually started making the movie instead of talking about making the movie which is huge and it's terrifying it's the scariest thing that I've done and this podcast is where you're going to hear a bit about that now the film is more the experiential side of things me jumping out of planes and climbing up mountains and going into churches and doing all the stuff to try and get that road to Damascus Epiphany but this podcast is the intellectual side of things because it's very hard to put the intellectual side of things on screen without making it incredibly boring but listening to it engaging with it the dialectic is unendingly entertaining for me and for a lot of people out there as well which is why you're here or it's just because you just love hearing me talk this episode we are we're doing an interview with a gentleman named Matthew Murdock he reached out to me uh via email I read a bit of his email in the last episode The Madman highly encouraged it was one of my favorite episodes to record but it has been surpassed by this episode this episode it was so much fun to talk with this guy now consider him my brother uh just a tiny bit of background before we jump into my interview with him uh we both went on a podcast on YouTube called Catholic verses with our mutual friend David Ross we both went on on different points and he heard my interview with him and he resonated so strongly with the struggles that I was going through that he shot me an email and uh we kind of hit it off there and now we jumped on my podcast to uh really just dig into the experiential side of of trying to get to truth and how difficult it is to get to truth and the emotional um blockages that occur the arrogance the bias the fear and the confusion that that goes into just marching along the Journey of fighting truth he's a great guy I I now consider him a very close friend looking forward to talking with him as I continue on this journey and I'm so excited to bring to you my interview with Matthew burdock [Music] we did it Matthew here we are we did it uh thank you for coming on the podcast after oh weeks of emailing and uh about I'd say about a week of emailing and a week of us trying to figure out these damn Tech problems I'm really excited this is great so uh God be willing that we don't have any further technical issues um I on episode four which I'm not sure if you've heard yet but I read a bit of your email um that you sent me and it's a part of your story that you've shared on our mutual friend David's podcast and I'd love for you to try and if you can bring the audience up to speed on who you are in your in your backstory um so that they're on the same page as as I am okay well um I was raised Catholic uh but my family was not like hardcore Catholic we didn't talk about it outside of church but we were there every Sunday uh you know we're just there but we didn't really pray or do any of that type of stuff but uh what flavor of Catholic were you were you Byzantine Catholic Roman Catholic uh Roman I believe okay see you know and all the the Catholic distinctives and all that stuff we never really talked about it I was catechized had my first communion I was confirmed but um I didn't really know any of the uh Catholic dogmas until uh recently actually when I started coming back into yeah so um basically I had like a generic idea of who God was I figured that he was there but I didn't think about it much I didn't put a lot of thought into it just figured that you know he's there and uh the more you know growing up getting into drugs and sex drugs and rock and roll I just felt like uh he was probably angry with me so I just wanted to rebel against this nebulous figure in my head type of thing anyway so I kind of wandered away from that into even the point of not believing I got into some um occult stuff because I was into like satanic speed metal I've heard you like make fun of people who like death metal and stuff that's so funny to me because I was totally I was totally like you're like no there's like six people out there who like that I'm like I'm one of those guys I was in this you know death metal band and and to all the you know satanic stuff that goes along with that but it kind of turns out just to be a joke like those people really don't believe in it but right right but I kind of you know started out believing in it but then it just kind of turned into a joke as well so uh anyways uh so a lot of ins and outs about that we can talk about but like I said my story is still convoluted it would take forever to get into all that but so I totally walked away from it um I wound up totally destroying my life uh through my drug addiction and uh and I hated Christianity I hated Christians and religion and all of that stuff and I would you know toy with people and try and talk them out of their faith and stuff just for fun real real quick before because I'm going to be asking a bunch of questions here do you have any questions that are that are off limits no okay bring it on brother okay and I'll be as honest as I can because a lot of these conversations like and I need to hear it because I'm skeptical right now I'm I'm I'm fighting to hold on to my faith at all costs at the moment because I almost fell off completely just not too long ago so um I want to examine all the hard stuff and I will I'm telling you I will answer you uh you can ask anything and uh and I'm game for that you know because okay I'm trying to get to the bottom of it just like you are yeah no that's awesome I just want to make sure before because I can be a bit of a jackhammer with this and I didn't want you you know while we're live camera away dude and and I'm kind of a rambler so if I start going off you can just bring me back in because I'll just you know so like I said it did a lot of drugs so my brain don't work right and sometimes I just start going off on rabbit trails and I just like like when I was on David's podcast I don't know if you listen to my my first episode he just lets me talk for like an hour dude and I'm just like why did you do that at that point I listened to it myself I sound like such an idiot man I'm just like why did he just keep letting me talk like that well he's yeah he's very he's very kind but he does chop stuff down um yeah we'll have to we'll have to get into how we met each other and David's podcast and whatnot but yeah so you were in the debauchery you had all the the sex drugs and rock and roll um yes and it's interesting that you were saying that you tried to rock the Christian's Faith a little bit because that's definitely what I did too like as you know when we first became an atheist it's fun to just like go up and Shake yeah okay so so take us from there then then what happens okay so I'm completely destroyed my life is ruined I'm probably geez I don't even know how old in my mid-20s at this point and I'm like what do you mean your life is ruined are you are you homeless are you strung out what's going on I'm strung out uh methamphetamine and intravenous user just like burned all my bridges and uh just wound up yeah I was homeless and um uh I was staying at a homeless shelter and like my dad dropped me off over there and I was like looking around at all like the homeless people I'm like look at all these bums these disgusting people and thought I was better than everybody else and wound up having to stay there because I seriously had nowhere else to go then I found out you know I am just like all these guys and they all had a story to tell too so that was a big eye-opening experience for me but um I felt just this pit in my s in my chest just I was I wanted to just kill myself I was I was very suicidal but too cowardly to actually do it you know like I just wanted to go do a big shot of dope and just die that way because that's like probably the most chicken [ __ ] way you possibly could do it like I was too scared to you know put a gun in my mouth and pull the trigger or hang myself or something but I would I wanted to die my life was meaningless I was just totally broken down and uh and at this point did you have a sense of because I I know that throughout this whole journey I've still had like the programming of Catholicism in my head that makes me feel like you know that God's still watching me even if I didn't intellectually assent to it I still like yeah you know something something's there uh at least habitually did you have that in your darkest times too absolutely like I I still felt as though I was uh rebelling against some somebody like uh like a kid rebelling against their their parents like you don't love me so I'm gonna do this and watch this and I'm gonna very childish kind of motives inside but yes and I felt uh condemned like you you've talked about feeling afraid of hell and stuff I've always felt uh like well I'm going to hell anyways I better you know enjoy this while I can or make friends with you know the darkness make friends with the evil spirits that's kind of part of being part of the uh in the occultish stuff like just trying to I don't know it was it was pretty childish and stupid but trying to just Rebel and uh get what I could get out of it because I always kind of felt even when I was a child because I had some things happen to me and and certain things where I felt dirty and I felt condemned anyway so that's kind of led to me uh rebelling and I just enjoyed being bad oh for sure I mean well there's so much fun it's fun yeah I mean I had a lot of fun doing it I played in bands and did all that stuff and I mean we weren't really that successful but you know for a local uh you know a little local small town you know we were we were cool guys and we we had a little tiny bit of Fame you know well in the words of Saint Augustine he said uh Lord make me Chase but not yet yeah not yeah yeah exactly yep uh so yeah so I definitely felt that and uh I wanted I knew I needed something so I started uh before that I I was looking into Taoism Buddhism yeah and I wanted something I needed something and I just knew that it was not Christianity I hated Christianity it was stupid it's like anything but that so I'm I'm rolling around coming off of drugs in this uh nasty uh homeless shelter and I have my my Taoist reading material and the Buddhist thing and the Bible with me and I'm just tossing and turning I'm trying to get into this the Taoist philosophy and all of these things you know and it was just emptiness to me it just did nothing for me like this is this is stupid come on please be something here yeah Buddhism yeah it does it's just there's it's I don't know there's nothing there and I was desperately trying to trick myself even into believing something kind of you know yeah yeah as long as it wasn't Christianity but I still had that Bible there like you said like that programmed deal like in the back of my mind I don't know why I still had it you know and I realized I needed to get into a program uh because this this homeless shelter deal wasn't working out for me and uh so I went up to the front desk and asked the people like I'm like I need to get into a rehab is there any place around here that can help and they're like oh well you just happen to be next door to a rehab and it's called the Reno Sparks Gospel Mission I'm like no no no Gospel Mission ah so I'm just like well I had no choice because it's like your time runs out at the shelter and then it's just I'm on the street again and I'm just I was too pampered I came from a upper middle class family so that the whole bum Street Life junky stuff didn't suit me very well you know once I ran out of people to take advantage of I guess right and uh yeah so I go to the Gospel Mission I'm skeptical I'm just like yeah yeah I ain't gonna believe in the stuff like looking down my nose at everybody there but then after I'm there for a few weeks you know I I just was like okay God if you're there X do X Y and Z and I will I'll believe in you and then whatever amount of times that I have said that yeah and the stupid ridiculous selfish prayer that I just threw out there it happened I can't even remember what it was I really can't and so I'm like oh coincidence same like oh that's a coincidence and so then I did it two more times and then it happened and then I'm like okay and in this Gospel Mission place you're going to Chapel like five days a week right every day every morning you wake up at five in the morning and you're going hearing some sermon from some local pastor and then so anyways I'm on one of those deals uh the guy does the altar call you know about that does anyone want to receive Jesus oh yeah yeah they're in their heart and and stop them inside me I just I start crying I feel like a wave of heat come over me like I just felt hot like I just start sweating you know and just crying and I raise my hand and everyone started praying on me and uh praying over me and stuff and then you know then I started that kind of became a Christian and reading the Bible and all that stuff and I was like well I guess I believe this now and and uh yeah so that's that's where I got to that point but then after that you know my story gets hot very convoluted because after that you know I fell back out of it became pretty much an atheist again went back to drugs like within a year and had some crazy stuff happen I don't know if you want me to go into that or what I don't want to start going off and getting too far into it so I'll eat ask some more questions if you want yeah sure so uh when you became an atheist was this um an intellectual atheism kind of like what you've been exploring uh now I know you're I know you're Catholic now but you know where you've read books or you've listened to uh debates or whatever it is and you're like ah man this just doesn't make sense or was it an atheism as like an apathy thinking about it and I you know like I said I kind of went back to uh doing drugs I got married to some lady and it was like a horrible marriage and everything fell apart and I was no actually yeah okay it was an emotional thing because now I remember I I you know I got married to this girl that I was doing drugs with and then we both got clean and both came to Jesus and all that type of stuff and then I was trying my hardest to be a good boy dude like not cussing drinking smoking all I still smoke cigarettes at that time but you know what I mean like all the churchy stuff like I was trying to be Church guy and uh my life still totally sucked my my ex-wife you know was not cool you know like running around on me and I just felt I remember feeling kind of cheated like uh because the only reason I got married is because we were going to this church and the pastor's like are you two married we're like no um and they're like well you better get married now or or you know don't come back I said we're like oh gosh that's God talking to us through this P that's how I thought I was like oh that's the voice of God speaking through this this pastor so we rushed off and got married it was a freaking horrible mistake and I just remember thinking like why am I trying I'm trying so hard right and my life sucks and I didn't understand you know I know all the answers the Sunday School answers for that now but at the time I didn't so what are what are the answers now that you that you think they are well that you know as a Christian are you are you uh guaranteed uh a fun happy life all right right no but but you think oh I'm doing all the right things how can God's not blessing me I really thought like all the blessings were just gonna start raining down on me like the Pentecostal guy say you know you just have faith and you know I thought oh maybe driving a nice car everything's gonna start working out for me God's gonna be happy with me but no man everything sucks so I'm just like uh you know that just slowly drifted away and felt kind of robbed in that way so how many years ago was was that stage that was geez that was about 10 years ago okay so 10 years ago you had that one I'm assuming then you uh Divorced with this lady what happened between then and now okay so um I went back to drugs wound up back in the Gospel Mission you know years later and uh like I wound up I woke up in jail and I was just like a total mess and uh and I was like wait a minute I'm like supposed to be a Christian or something right someone give me a Bible and I'm like screaming at the jail the jailers like give me a Bible give me a Bible and it took him like two weeks to get to get me a Bible for whatever reason I guess they're in high demand in jail or something a lot of people trying to I gotta get out of here but um anyways so I you know and I got a hold of the Bible and I just started devouring it I'm like holy crap I'm supposed to be a Christian what have I been doing I've been you know just right back to drug sex women all that stuff just I was just that same guy all over again before I even had that whole trip to begin with so I went and put myself back in the mission after I got out of jail and then uh you know I had a kid my kid was taken away from me because of my drugs and I just felt like a total piece of crap and uh so I'm back in the mission and the same type of thing happens again I bail out get with this uh my my daughter now's mom who I'm Who I'm not with anymore but um but I got my daughter back and things are good now in that aspect and uh so but I went back to drugs with her mom in some small town in the middle of nowhere go on like this long Runner and that whole time like I feel this weight on me like you are going to hell chosen your path you're you are condemned and that and and to the point where I was just running into these churches I'm just totally annihilated on drugs just running into there grabbing some Christians by the shoulders I need help you know yeah going to hell I I've I'm living in sin please help me and they get and they were also I mean I'm sure they were nice but they were so stupid and they were saying oh you ain't going to have something you're just fine I'm like you don't understand yeah what I'm dealing with like I'm I'm telling you like the fear it was it was but I didn't stop what I was doing but I mean the fear was the same as if someone was just what was dangling you over a cliff yeah you know what I mean like that type of fear and that's really powerful so uh yeah you have this um okay so that's really interesting so you have this this fear of hell and it doesn't stop you from doing the drugs and doing this this stuff why is that I don't know man that's I just felt like honestly I couldn't change I I felt like it was just like is it because you couldn't or because you didn't think you deserved to see I don't I really I couldn't answer that I don't know I I just would I would literally I have a scar in my arm that I carved into it that says no oh my God and I put an x mark on my vein so that the next morning when I woke up I would I would remember that I didn't want to shoot up anymore and and my kids see that Mark they're like how does what does that say I'm just like don't worry about it I can't tell you I'll tell you later I'll tell you later hopefully never but um but then the next day I'm I'm I'm shooting up drugs and then I notice on my arm I'm like what the hell is that I'm like oh yeah I gave myself a little Post-It note in My Flesh and it still didn't work you know it's like I was that far gone man okay it just was second nature I couldn't I could not it's just it just was who I was and no matter how much I cried and I was just I remember just screaming out to God and I'd just be punching myself in the face and just trying to hurt you know hurting myself doing all that type of stupid stuff and people like remembered seeing me do it and I didn't know that they were like they're like oh we saw you you were outside in the car and you were just beating the [ __ ] out of yourself I'm like really like this it was It's just sad you know yeah but um but you know what I just felt like I was stuck and I'm just like oh I guess I just sold my soul or something I can't get out of this you know I just felt trapped and all these Christian people that I was going to like they gave me no help no no not at all not at all most of them are very unequipped that's the problem is there's 99 of the the Christians of the Catholics that you run into are unequipped I have so I have two questions before we move forward with your story um and I hope I remember both of them question number one that uh that fear of hell um and that knowledge that there is a God uh in the midst of your suffering was that I know it's hard to answer but do you think that was programming was that habit because of how you were raised or was that um a fear based on a legitimate response to something that you believe or believed was there well I think that I it's really not explainable because um I didn't really want to feel that way I know that and I know that I I'm very good at justifying myself and uh like when I was doing drugs and all that stuff for years I felt fine about it it was great it was all good you know it's just partying it up but for that period of time just that that fear of hell I don't know what happened because I mean I was that's pretty terrible for a lot of years before that and I didn't really have much of a conscience over it and I wasn't I wasn't I was just like it was more like oh I'm going to hell anyway oh might as well party but it wasn't like I actually feared an actual place of actual damnation and all that whatever that fear was I never experienced anything like it yeah and I couldn't get rid of it you know like I was doing lots of drugs and you know I'd be distracted for a little while but then it would uh it would just come back and I was just like oh and this last this is over about a period of a year uh this whole long thing so I don't know but could it be the program you know it could be I mean I don't know it's yeah it's it's almost impossible to admit that it could be yeah it's almost impossible to answer but I I have to ask and then and then question number two is um I know that with my own personal addictions and compulsions that I've dealt with um it's really easy for me to tell myself that I'm stuck that I'm powerless and so on um so I want to challenge you on that would you say that you were legitimately powerless or do you feel like you had even one half of one percent of choice in the matter well I mean did I get up and choose to go and buy drugs and stick it in America yeah I was me doing it well I mean there's a difference between it being your meat suit you know shoving the needle in your arm and and you just you know nobody really chooses to eat they're hungry and so they eat you know yeah let's see oh that's great that you just brought that okay to me doing that shot of Meth was that the um the urge and I remember trying to explain this to someone my urge to do drugs was the urge to eat yep okay it was the same it was the same uh it was the same type of feeling yeah it's at Primal visceral yeah you just it's just gonna happen like right it's something that yeah you know so yeah I remember feeling like that but that's after you you get into a pretty deep you know how are you introduced to drugs now like I said I grew up in a real straight laced Catholic Family my parents were drugs rank but not like any big deal but I just uh really uh it was the influence from music and things I listened to my Idols as a kid were like Axl Rose and Guns and Roses you know uh and and I was into heavy metal and all that stuff and all those guys were Partiers drug addicts I wanted to be like that when I grew up and that's exactly what I did I remember when I was a little kid thinking that like I can't wait to like get older and I can go and party and do all that stuff you know rebellious you know because my parents were so opposite of that I won right I wanted to go as far away from the way they were raising me as I could I guess yeah that's interesting which is totally stupid I was a complete idiot like wow I have no good excuse well I was influenced by all that stuff I get it but there's also I think there's an obligation on on the parents that if you're going to make your kids safe you also have to make them competent because if you just make them safe then they will swing the other way but if you make them safe and competent then they'll realize why you're doing what you're doing and they they won't swing so far I'm grateful to have to have parents that have made me safe and competent where uh my stupid decisions still haven't been uh life-altering you know I haven't uh luckily I haven't ended up in a field with Farmers praying over me which I really want to get to in your story because I was like that was awesome the next part great okay let's let's jump into it let's jump into it okay I'm going to this church in that church begging people to help me they're like no no you're fine and then I was just like okay there's no help I'm done I'm dead I might as well I'm a dead man walking I'm gonna go to hell who cares so I'm in the library because I lost my job and I'm getting my unemployment because I didn't have a computer or anything so you had to go there and to file your unemployment and then some guy some random dude in there just is talking to the librarian and says some Bible verse and I just jump up out of my seat grab by the shoulders I was like I need help he's like are you on drugs and I said yes right in front of everyone just making a scene in this little little town this is like a little hit town it's called Bishop California in the middle of nowhere everyone's like what the hell and he's like okay we're having a little bible study uh just a few guys and it's at seven o'clock so show up so I was like fine so I show up and totally disrupt these guys with some farmer guys and they're just you know doing their little bible study you haven't seen those little scripture Bible studies they have like a little little study pamphlet and they go through okay what does this verse say to you well I think you know that type of thing yeah and they've never seen it yeah and they've never seen anyone like me coming in there and I'm just like I'm going to hell I'm this and that I wow just freaking out and then they uh then they just stop everything they're doing they're so cool and they prayed over me and stuff and one of the guys was like God's Gonna deliver you tonight and I was like no he's not yeah right I have a bag of dopes in at home I'm gonna go and do that yep and again tomorrow's gonna be the same as yesterday and repeat repeat death hell Blackness Darkness swallow me up I don't I don't [ __ ] care anymore you know that's where I was at so um and then one of the other older old guys is that gave his son if you need me you call me I don't care what time it is I don't care what it is you call me I'm like yeah I'm gonna call you stranger your guy that I just met farmer Rick yeah farmer Bell in your in your bib overalls I'm gonna give you a call buddy we're gonna hang out you know but uh I went back to my the place where I was staying and had the drugs out had everything ready to go and I just been pacing back and forth and uh I just couldn't touch it I'm like what's going on what's going on and I just I'm getting the anxiety you know and uh so then I pick up old farmerville's phone number and I call them it's probably 11 or 12 at night you know call him I was like hey you told me I could call you I'm that guy you know and so he's like I'll be right there where are you at he comes over comes and picks me up uh we drive out into like a little I don't know a little shield and I give them all my drugs give them all of that stuff and he he's just like looking at like what the hell like needles and pipes and just a bunch of crystal meth you know and he dumps it out and he said a prayer with me and uh from that moment on uh I never have had and this is that was seven eight years ago now I haven't had one craving not even a craving not even a thought not even a a tiny little desire to do math ever since that night totally transformed damn and uh I was also you know a liar and a thief and all of these things even when I try and get off the drugs I was still kind of kind of kind of crappy guy like that and all of that went away as well overnight uh so and so then I just got my stuff together I had to leave my baby's mama out there you know because she's still doing drugs and my and our kid was in Carson City with my parents because that she was taken away from us and I was like dude I got to go back there and take care of my kid I can't be with you anymore I gotta lead so that's what I did and uh so I want to dig in a little bit to that transformation so typically in the religious viewpoint uh there's free will right and but it'll say in the Bible things like Pharaoh uh Pharaoh's heart was hardened by God and yeah such that he followed them into the the Red Sea and then he was swallowed up and so that kind of always bothered me because it was like well if we have if we're supposed to have free will then then why is God buggering around with our hearts in our in and such that that we can be manipulated in such a way to be a better person or a worse person um yeah and it sounds to me like in this situation you reached out to the farmer and so you kind of gave it to God and you said you know make this happen for me like I'm powerless please you know help me and so that you know that wouldn't be the removal of free will you just kind of gave him permission to make that change with that sound like yeah okay uh so that to me is remarkable that you could go from without rehab uh completely addicted to yeah you know this isn't this isn't marijuana right this is chemically addictive substances cold turkey to nothing yep that blows my mind and and brother and and see this is what I go back to when I start doubting I get into all this theological stuff and it's so doubtful the inerity of the Bible I see errors in it I'm not stupid I and and I I go to all of these different pastors and from all these years and I try to get answers and you have to do mental gymnastics and backflips to try and wiggle your way out of these weird inconsistencies and and what they talk about but I cannot deny what happened to me and and and I was trying to tell uh had I was kind of debating an atheist guy about this and he just kind of wrote it off as oh it's just a psychological experience that could happen to anyone for anything you know and which is true I can't argue yeah sure a guy could go to Mormonism and say the same thing oh I quit drinking because ever since I became a Mormon yeah but I know in my life that um ever since I was 12 years old when I first tried methamphetamine I've jonesed for it and craved it ever since even and I went for periods of time when I'd get clean and I'd get a job or even when I was a kid you know I'd go you know a few months without doing it and stuff but in the back of my mind brother that thought was never gone well let me ask you that fantasy you know it's like a fantasy like like you're looking at good-looking women or you're thinking about good-looking women you can relate to that right for sure it was just it was just like that in the back of the mind that you I could not get away from it and then overnight that night bam I haven't even had a craving because if I had a craving brother I would do it I've never been strong enough to stand up against those Cravings because I would just start thinking about it and then it's like oh I just get to oh gosh and then I I run I'd be running out and going getting a bag of dope you know if I'd make it however long a couple weeks couple months or whatever between and then I dude now when you say dope you mean meth right not heroin I didn't like heroin it wasn't my wasn't my gig I tried it though okay so with you know you're talking to somebody who only knows a little bit about how this stuff works in the brain um is it dopaminergic does it work on the reward center yes it does interesting that's that's really important because my skeptic brain was like oh if it doesn't work on that part of the brain then you can actually have a decision to stop doing it see you're saying exactly what I was trying to say to the atheist guy what he didn't get because okay when you and when you're doing these drugs you form neural passageways yeah and you and you actually form these new receptor sites in your brain that crave these things your body will quit you know how all that works well yeah it's the same thing as a porn addiction it's the exact same thing it's a hard wiring in your brain the chemical makeup of your brain is changed that's why you have cravings that's why when you when you you crave nicotine because your body has actually formed different passwords in your brain which is the physical thing that you can observe under a microscope you can you can look in the MRI machine and see these things they can see correlations there so that means a physical thing my brain chemical chemistry and brain map that I've formed over 20 20 years of doing this right so do you want to hear my last ditch effort to to reason this away yeah go for it um [Laughter] no no bring it I'm sorry so right now research with psilocybin has shown an 85 cessation rate with smoking uh with one dose of psilocybin you can absolutely remove um the use of cigarettes uh completely which uh I'm sure you know cigarette smoking is really tough to quit and um yeah that like chantax and all these different prescriptions and stuff they have like success rate of like 15 17 so like an 85 success rate is insane so my last ditch effort to explain this the way would be to say that you had um a psychedelic type ego death experience that does what psilocybin does uh and the only re the only way that that would be substantiated is if you when that guy prayed over you can report any sort of ego death or psychedelia in your experience there was a pretty mundane it was totally mundane oh my God I didn't think it was gonna do anything I just woke up the next morning and I was different seriously it was just like okay like I just dumped out all my dope great now I'm gonna have to you know it wasn't uh it wasn't like he touched me and Zapped me and like the Pentecostal guys and I started flopping on the floor or anything like that it was just a very mundane thing and I didn't really I didn't really even believe it as it was happening yeah no that's amazing so you probably were in you yourself were amazed as it was happening like wow I can't believe I'm not hungry right now yeah it makes no no sense and then to just change my life and leave that place where I was you know my girlfriend at the time and and I just had like my perfect drug addict set up to where I was just about to get 99 weeks of unemployment where I can just party and get high and have a steady check coming in every week that's like a drug addict's dream you know uh yeah so yeah so I mean I I was leaving behind things that I would that I was striving for as well like I just had got that that situation so I don't know man that's crazy so but yeah you know what does yeah I have to ask like what does that prove you know so you have I always hide behind the idea that uh these experiences are non-transferable right what's proof for you isn't proof for me because it didn't happen to me it happened to you yeah you know and that that is I think it's it is uh it's fair but it's a little bit cowardly because I don't think you're a pathological liar right yeah and so this is the thing even if I was brother like you could come into my life and this and that's why in my little test case my little uh anecdotal life my little experience I shared with you that's test it's testable you can see police reports hospitals oh for sure everything of a whole life over 20 years all of the counseling because I've been to uh probably nine rehabs I've been to counseling for drug centers since you know since I was uh before I was even 15 years old I started my drug treat so you can see this whole life of drug uh all of the proof that I was actually a drug addict and talked to the people who knew me in my life Ben and people who knew me in my life now my parents everyone none of them can believe the overnight change yeah but my parents are even like oh well I'm glad you found something that works for you it's like no you don't oh my god dude you don't understand it you know but yeah but Peck away at that man because I I want to know because the other atheist guy's like oh well Muslims quit drinking so why do you why do you think it was God and and all of this stuff but I'm saying regardless of who the God is who helped me which I say it's Jesus you know because he's the one that was there he's the only one I reached out to all these other gods and Jesus is the only one that showed up he's the one that showed up for me when I was at the mission and that's why I believe in him you know but um but then after after okay so after that happened in Farmer bill that's not his real name his name is Dan I don't want to make fun of him just in case he ever hears it but uh you know old farmer Dan uh so I just tag along with him for the next couple weeks like I'm I'm with him like I have to abandon ship all my friends all everything I didn't want to see anyone so I'm just he lets me tag along with him just takes me in as a family member pretty much and got me on my feet and got me the hell out of town but um so I don't know anything about Christianity they're Protestant um Evangelical Christians so I learned everything I'm learning everything I think that's what Christianity is is their stripe of Christianity right and then but then over the last however 10 years since it's been since then or eight years nine years I've gone from one theological Camp to the next reading the Bible like crazy you know like like I know I know the bible really well I read inside and out praying to you everything like I told you listening to thousands and thousands of hours of uh preaching and teaching and all this stuff and then I would find some fatal flaw in the theology where it didn't line up with what the Bible seemed to be saying and so then I'd go to the next guy and then he would say oh yeah they're all wrong those Presbyterians have it all wrong or or those evangelicals have it all wrong it's all about presbyterianism I'm like oh yes Calvinism yeah do you play that game so much I totally get that I totally understand that you just jump from like because because you know each person has this whole I mean I say cult but they have this whole infrastructure built up around it to be able to say they're all wrong we have all the answers only to move on to the next one that says oh they're all wrong we have all the answers and for a while like you just hungrily move from one to the next because there's this desire for for Truth for resolution for saying oh I have a place to to put my feet and then you finally get to a point where like wait just a second maybe nobody knows that's exactly where I'm at that's where I'm at just like a few months ago okay or maybe it's six or seven months ago I got to that point to where I was losing my faith all together because I'm like all of these places say they have the Holy Spirit before the before they start preaching the word they say holy spirit reveal to us the truth that you have and they're preaching stuff that I know is false because I've read it and I under it's like I understand the word like when you're a little kid and you're listening to your first grade math teacher teaching math you're like they know everything but then you get into college level math and then you go revisit that first grade teacher and be like wow this guy didn't even know what the hell he was talking about you know it was just like that and you're in your and it's just like one man's opinion against the next man's opinion where's the Holy Spirit of Truth Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life someone who wears the truth if there's no truth uh you know like they can't all con it can't all be contradictory and be the same holy spirit because they always say oh God can't uh there can be no contradiction in his word or anything or or else he wouldn't be true or whatever you know you've heard all that stuff so I'm like well how can how come you say that you have the Holy Spirit teaching you how to interpret uh this passage and the guy across the street says the same exact thing and you guys are coming out with contradictory conclusions and you're condemning each other well that doesn't fly I wanna I wanna touch on that but before we do I want to Circle back real quick so okay does uh is there a withdrawal from methamphetamines like there is from heroin not no uh there's like a for me I have such an extreme case that there was I have little mini seizures whenever I try and quit other times in my life and uh and I went to the hospital because I thought I was dying and they told me that that's just in extreme cases of uh uh chemical dependency that's not common for methods usually you just crash out and you're extremely depressed for maybe a week and you just can't sleep I mean you can't you can't eat I mean yeah all you want to do is eat and sleep and you're just a zombie for no nope I woke up the next day and I was I was I was new and was the uh it was that preceded by your typical usage of Meth what do you mean I mean like were you already tapering down your use or did you was that no no no no no no no I said I had a whole bag of dope and I was already shot up before what the hell am I supposed to do with that I don't know you're making it really tough time oh yeah well he's like I'm glad for you oh wow you didn't want to you didn't want to think about it but oh that's what it is like it there is definitely and it's taken me so much effort to get to a point where your story uh does not make me angry or defensive or fearful um I'm starting to the point now thankfully where I'm curious where I'm hopeful you know because before it was oh no my worldview is crashing down and there's a fear I think it's a fear of judgment there's a fear of humiliation uh as an atheist like if you're wrong you've just gone around telling everybody hey you believe in fairy tales and you know then Matthew comes up and says hey overnight I was cured of a methamphetamine addiction that spanned 25 years and uh and that really rocks your world um but kind of moving back to what you were saying about how you know everybody has their own answer uh and so on David's response to that would be the idea that all these other people have different opinions he would say that the magisterium is what separates uh all these sects of Christianity from the Catholic Church which is we have which again doesn't help because it's just another guy saying we we've got it um right you know but we have this institution that's preserved sacred uh scripture and sacred tradition and the tradition would be you know um the strict interpretation of that scripture but again I agree with you that doesn't help you because that's just another group of people saying we've got it um and then you have the lutherans who come along and say well you're wrong and here's why so but I'm still interested in your uh your I don't know if you call it healing maybe that'd be a good word for it um sure so let's say that this is not an accident of biology it's not an accident of psychology it's some other inexplicable occurrence what uh let's and then let's take Christianity off the table what else do you think it could be it's super I'm totally open to Supernatural I'm just trying to brainstorm and take us out of the the religious Realm of what what could account for it other than it had something to do with with Christianity is that what you mean yeah because or non-spiritual like a a material cause well no not necessarily material my point is is like so if somebody sees a UFO right by definition it's unidentified yet everyone immediately says oh there's aliens they came from here they do this they look like this this is what they're you know why they're here on Earth okay but it's kind of like well how do you know that all you did is you saw the UFO so in this situation I look at this it's like we have this extraordinary inexplicable event but by definition it's inexplicable uh and the only really tangible thing that we have is we prayed to this particular God and this crazy thing happened now are we able to prove it's because of that God no all we have is the proof that this thing happens so I guess what I'm trying to do is like if we take uh Christianity off the table where does your mind go in terms of other possible explanations whether it's supernatural or natural well let's see um I don't know it I would have to just I don't know I really I really have no idea because um I know that I was trying and how I would have liked to be different in a way uh and uh I tried other other things too and nothing seemed to work it just seems to be like like it was my nature I I like in the biblical explanation of your sin nature and how you're born with this propensity to do these things and all this stuff it just seems like it wraps it up so well any other explanation like for why uh that would have happened to me I mean I really have no idea other than like you said it was just some psychological trip that I was on and like they say that that correlation and causation are two different things just because there's a correlation I pray to a Christian God and then this thing happened that doesn't mean that that was the actual cause of it right right that that's kind of basically what I'm getting at yeah yes we have this event yeah yeah so the other the only other thing I don't know I could think of is just that it was just some delusion of mine that maybe and I'm I'm just coming up with stuff I haven't really I think of a satisfying answer but I think that you know it's possible that deep inside this whole time I've just wanted to change so bad and I just I don't know he just made it and there was your out manifest yeah it made it manifest somehow and some some deal but I mean even that really examining it and going over the uh the events that were surrounding it and just how I was and who I was it was just idea it would have to be something really weird deep psychological trippy thing that I don't I'm not even aware of well the reason why I think I I'm still kind of massaging this is because I don't understand how somebody can automatically know all of the peripheral details from the one instance so for example if someone's like I had cancer I prayed to Allah cancer is gone therefore all of Islam is true and we should beat our wives with this the length of Rod you know it's like not thicker than your not thicker than your index finger exactly so they no thicker than that you're all it's all good yeah like you have to buy the whole cow just for that one thing exactly they Yoke the entirety of this one religion to this mystical experience they have so that's really kind of what I'm trying to figure out with you is it's like what can we glean from this besides holy [ __ ] you you were a meth addict and then you weren't and that pivotal moment was under uh extraordinary circumstances like yeah what what can we take that's actionable because if there is sufficient information there then we should be able to go off into the world and say because of this experience I now know X Y and Z about reality and I can take action on it but yeah uh it's almost like all right well the only thing that we can really do is I guess Jesus because we were praying to Jesus but then shouldn't you be uh what were they Presbyterian as opposed to Catholic yeah you know exactly oh no and these guys were you know evangelicals right yeah so where does that come in because now like theologically I disagree with those guys exactly so much but yeah but yet they they have the Holy Spirit power and and that's just that and that's a Trippy thing too because maybe maybe we don't have to buy the whole thing and maybe all of the theological constructs that we've come up with to try and connect the dots are just man's invention but the uh the spirit of it is real well that's what I'm wondering is like maybe we are the the idea of religion is just the various interpretations of something that is very truly uh beyond our scope of understanding but when you know farmer Dan invokes Jesus and the the men who flew planes in the World Trade Center and vocal law they are talking about the same thing but it's us who are screwing it up you know yeah like the The Three Blind Men yeah exactly like there is an elephant there for sure I've seen that yeah and and all of them are describing in reality what they are experiencing but they can't see the whole thing they can only describe their little part of it that's interacted with them that they've had a brush with like the tail is the you know whatever it's a big whip oh no it's a big fan so then here's what bothers me is I feel like that too sometimes is when the person who's feeling one part of the elephant tells the person who's feeling the other part of the elephant you're going to burn in hell because you don't agree you idiot yeah that's that's where it's like then it becomes abuse because then you have kids like you and I were kids and we were told this message and we believed it better be good boy yeah and now that we're examining the other parts of the elephant uh it's or or questioning whether it's an elephant at all uh then we still have like this record playing in the back of our head that says you know you will suffer for all of eternity for doing what you're doing yeah yeah and and you know what and I'm gonna be honest with you here too when I'm explaining the faith to my kids who are little kids I feel sometimes like I'm giving them some sort of bedtime story like I feel like I'm telling him a tale so that they feel better about the bumps in the night and people that die like it would be the perfect thing to tell them if I was just trying to make up make up uh something to pacify them do you know what I mean so then I wonder I'm like is that all that we're doing it's just more sophisticated form as we grow up and we have all these different systems you know where did Grandma go and she died and I I'm gonna die what's gonna happen oh no it's okay we're all gonna be we're all going to be together in the end it's like oh that's a comforting thought but it's like yikes and then the hell thing you know keep in line exactly but but you know what bro but that's that is trauma in Christianity because is it the is it the good people that go to heaven and the bad people that go to hell nope you know what it's it's pieces of crap like me I get to go to heaven why me why would God why would God deliver me bro I was a thief a liar sexually immoral in every way pretty much you know uh and still even now I'm proud uh uh I'm I'm not a good husband and father I mean I don't love people like Jesus said you know if you're my disciple you're going to love people that are going to know you by your love I'm like do I really love people I'm a judgmental I'm not I'm not good I'm not a good guy there are atheists who are better people than me so that's not how that's not how it works good guys don't go to heaven bad guys go to hell it's like if you will humble yourself and that's what all this is Nick and this is what I really think it is uh with with Christianity anyways is uh God just think he's like picking a team for for something later and or so you're like a CEO of a company and you want to know that you can trust your employees so you put them in these a simulation and they don't know that it's a simulation and that you're watching them and you can and so we get all of these doubtful things that we have to wrestle with and he's looking for a certain character or person a certain type of thing in us um so he puts us in this blind experiment type of thing and it's the humble it says that he gives grace to the humble and all of these people that we listen to are these big giant intellects these these really smart guys and they come up with these great plausible arguments and they are plausible and all of our doubts are real and they're founded but God's looking for that humble person that's gonna say I'm gonna trust in you regardless of what it looks like yeah man uh I think to my intellect and and that's what I wanted to share with you too are you there yeah I'm here can you hear me okay yeah and and I don't want to get all to Christian eonya but um when I was listening to your your podcast this is what came to my mind and and I'm skeptical like you I'm skeptical now of anyone who says oh the holy spirit's revealing this to me it's like [ __ ] you know really most of the time I I don't believe that I don't but this is what came to mind you know like Christianity if we really want to find the truth of Christianity we're going about it the wrong way because within the pages of the Bible that we're supposed to look to it says it says something like this is the Bible verse if you don't mind can I share with you oh please man yeah it says consider your calling Brothers not many of you were wise according to worldly standards not many were powerful not many were of noble birth but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong God chose what is low and despised in the world even things that are not to bring to nothing the things that are so that no human being May boast in the presence of God it's like God chose the foolish drug addict meth head foolish idiot to confound the wise and with this simple stupid anecdotal thing they have I don't have I'm not a philosopher you guys Blow Me Away with your philosophy I love it I love hearing it but like you said how you struggled just to hold on when you're listening to like certain guys go back and forth on philosophy that's how I feel listening to like you and David I'm like oh my gosh you guys are like towering intellects over me I'm a simple guy but and then another verse says where is the one who is wise where's the Scribe where's the debater of this age has God not made foolish the wisdom of the world for since in in the wisdom of God the world did not know God through wisdom see it says the world did not know God through wisdom it pleased God through the Folly of what we preach to save those who believe so like if we're trying to find this do this big intellectual thing we're just we're just it's masturbation dude we're not gonna find him that way it says God chose and God can choose whatever the hell God wants to do in any way that he wants because he's like I said he's looking to build a certain character in people and to a certain character like it says like if you are faithful in small things I'm going to reward you with great things later that's what Jesus was saying in his Parables to some guys um so if you're trustful he says if I can trust you in this very little bit I'm going to trust you with something huge I'm gonna give you 10 cities and whatever to come and I think that's all figurative of saying in this next life this is just a Proving Ground simulation uh you know and I think a lot of the science is coming up to this they think that this reality have you studied reality how they say that there's holographic nature to it it seems like a projection the theoretical physics they're like is this even really here at Quantum right right science it's like is reality really real no it kind of isn't that would make sense if this is just a simulator we're in an arena we're in a fish goal being watched being put in all these weird situations and you're hearing this right now and I'm hearing you like it's all a setup it feels like it because you know when you were a child and you thought that at any moment the the the walls were going to roll up and the backdrop was going to fall and a bunch of people are going to jump out and be like gotcha yeah you felt like that right yeah I just was talking about that with a buddy at work today I'm like you felt that right we all almost everyone I talked to we all felt that when we were small children you know why because that is how it is man how how I felt like I was in The Truman Show before I even knew what The Truman Show was or the Matrix or something like that like I couldn't put those things through I couldn't articulate it but I felt that way as a child like intuitively like this isn't real something's fishy here because it is what if it is I mean and that's the thing it's like Nick you just know like is God there and that's what a pastor just told me you know when I was telling him all these doubts all these horrible doubts in the Bible and all this stuff is just like man shut up you know you know right in your heart you know and I'm just like yeah yeah I know yeah but I'm fighting it's like I don't want it but I'm like but this but that but this and all those butts are valid dude they are but you still just have to at the end of the day yeah God chose the foolish things to confound the wise such a messed up like yeah backwards it's so backward like yeah you know you'd have to trust you'd have to trust and Jesus is like if with a childlike Faith right you have to become as one of these children or you cannot see the kingdom of God children believe in Santa Claus if I told my son my five-year-old I can jump over the moon and I said it with conviction he would believe me after a while you know what I mean you know that's right and it's ridiculous because it is a problem you know because Santa's not there right so yes he's not he's not so it but in that same way that childlike faith is the only way it's the only way that you can see his kingdom and and for us intellectually proud people that want answers and want everything to line up the way that we want to line up that's that's a stumbling block and that's why he says not many of you were wise and one more little bible thing and I'll quit but says trust in the Lord with all of your heart which is heart means mind do not lean on your own understanding and all of your ways acknowledge Him and He will make straight your path be not wise in your own eyes fear the lord Turn Away From Evil it will be healing to your flesh and refreshment to your bones so like the Bible's criteria for for for this is like don't trust your intellect Nick don't trust your your own heart it'll Lead You astray and all of these guys in their brilliant arguments man it's like doesn't that scare the [ __ ] out of you yeah doesn't it it should it's like I'm just gonna give it up okay that's what it is though it's like so you have to though Chris is the only way had such a great quote that uh he's he said if you if you just give in if you just let go of your critical faculties you will experience Eternal Bliss and that to me is so scary like what what am I gaining just drink the Kool-Aid yeah that's what it sounds like drink the Kool-Aid Nick everything's gonna be okay on the other side I know it like but um yeah that's how it is I mean that's the only way in dude I mean guys like C.S Lewis and stuff I guess he C.S Lewis came to Faith through uh philosophical arguments and he was a great intellect I don't know if you've read a lot of his his apologetic works but if you haven't read Mere Christianity he makes a good case yeah I'm getting around intellectual intellectually I mean he's he's if you want intellectual stuff he's he's great and very entertaining at the same time but that's a rarity usually it's uh through some kind of a tragedy or something God gets hold of your your heart or something something like what happened to me happened you know it's like I don't know I can't explain it I don't know so damn yeah so that's my you're not you're shaking my snow globe what the hell [Laughter] man we can't know anything shit's really tough but you came on here and now I'm all rattled good man no I'm I'm rattle all the time dude Nah if you're not if you're not rattled at least like once a week you're not doing it right no yeah and and Alpha stuff oh my gosh I can talk to you about it I totally get it in like prayer like my wife is going through some horrible stuff right now okay like uh crippling depression all of the stuff all of these people are praying for her like oh we're praying oh we're praying oh we're praying oh we're praying it's just like why isn't anything happening right I wanted to forward you something I sent to David I'm like well if and the answer you get is God here says yes no or later or something so that's the same as saying absolutely nothing that's famous flipping that's the same as flipping a coin it is uh you know it's the same thing right like like oh you just weren't praying praying according to his will or the time wasn't right it's just like okay so then why do it at all right that's the same as if if it wasn't true you know like and I'm honestly like uh if it was fake you'd get the same uh uh you have the same odds of getting your prayer answered in a way you know what I mean yeah no for sure so then the question becomes with all this like you know what is the purpose of making an effort and yeah and I think I do it at all well and I think the answer is it's this or annihilation right it's this or or a meaningless and utterly meaningless existence followed by nothingness yeah dude and but you know what and Nick I've been because I lately I've been feeling condemned again like I just know I'm not living up to the really hard things in Scripture that Christ says if you're my disciple you know you're you're gonna put me before your wife your even life itself and I realize dude I'm not living that way so I feel I feel condemned still and and you hear all these messages of Hope but if you really look at those claims they're really hard claims yeah and it seems it seems kind of [ __ ] up but then again it is well because I remember when I uh sorry I wrote a book it's on my website and it's I'm probably gonna eventually have to take it down because this whole journey that I'm doing it's just like I I don't know that I could stand by anything that I've written in the past but uh the book's called the agada which is I want it yeah everybody talk about it tell me dude I want it though I mean it's free it's right there on there um oh cool yeah but uh the Agoda is the Hebrew word for The Binding of Isaac which takes place in Exodus where um you know Abraham takes Isaac up the mountain because God asks you to please kill your son for me and when I finally understood that verse it scarred me so deeply or at least at least I used it as like this sort of uh virtue signaling like how could he type thing you know like how could a good God command seriously though it's like but that's a good question bro it's a you know it's a very good question so when God says like put me before your wife put me before your kids yeah is that uh you know that sounds very jealous and and capricious does is that the same thing as saying neglect your wife neglect your kids like I love my family more than I love God now granted I don't believe in God but um and I was I was talking to a friend of mine and I said you know do you love God more than you love your parents this guy's a Catholic and he said yeah I do and I just could not wrap my mind around that to like it because because to me it seems like a fear tactic to me it seems like love me more than your family or I'll send you to hell that's not love to me you know but it's an impossible standard I can't do that because you know what and this is another thing I want to tell you about the doubt that you agree with it's like they say that you know we can have this personal relationship with God and I still haven't had I don't feel like I feel like I know I don't feel like I know a bunch of facts yeah I know a bunch of facts about God I can answer all the Sunday School questions I could do all that but do I know him like I know uh my wife no no dude that's what I'm saying when yeah and when you go to all of these different places you know you're going to go to the different churches and all that stuff will you ask them something for me it ask him say okay so do you know God you know him personally can you demonstrate that show where is he show him to me yeah and if I have to use my imagination if you say oh yeah well I know him he's like uh imagine this imagine that I don't want an imaginary stuff I want to know him if he's a person I want to know him I want to have him like they say and all these people oh I love Jesus I have a personal relationship with him I'm like do you really or right it just sounds is it deficient in me or or what it sounds like just like a like a catchphrase that they say where it's like if you believe in God you have to say I have a relationship with Jesus I was just at an event the other day and uh it was a couple weeks ago and this guy comes up to me um and he goes do you know Jesus and it was like totally out of the blue so it was pretty crazy like he asked me this and it comes you know come to find out this guy he's 16 years old he tries to do a lot of Street evangelization and stuff like that yeah and uh oh it's getting a little bit loud in the background there shut the door please no worries [Applause] sorry Maddie will you please shut the door and quiet down a little bit sorry about that buddy no worries thank you appreciate it yeah yeah so I was I'm at this event turns out this guy he does some Street evangelization he's 16 years old is uh his name's Carver and um he he does this to everybody like he asks everybody do you believe in Jesus we actually became pretty good friends afterward he's a nice guy um and he he said something to the effect of do you have a relationship with Jesus Christ and I said I have a relationship with my dad I have a relationship with my sister but I when you say the words relationship with Jesus Christ it could not mean less to me yeah it just you're speaking a different language I was like what does that mean and he couldn't give me a you know a good answer but I've yet to hear actually a good answer from somebody me too and it's like or show me like how do I get that dude everyone's talking I'll read your Bible and pray I've been doing it for 10 years and I can't I cannot honestly tell you that I I have that and and you know this is gonna sound crass but and I'll probably eat my words later on but it sounds to me like when somebody has an imaginary friend where they have put so much effort you know as a little kid into creating this uh this Visage of an individual right they have this color hair they like this type of food you know oh my imaginary friend doesn't like spinach so don't feed him spinach and like all these different things it's like they are just that which you need them to be but they're a total fabrication of of you and so when somebody says I have a relationship with Jesus and they can't articulate how it got there or how you can share in it or anything like that it just comes down to these like ephemeral words of like uh you just have to have faith or just some empty catchphrase it's it's the most infuriating thing in the world it's imperative for me too because I'm trying to get this relationship and I'm talking to fellow Christian people who are are ignorant because a lot of Christians are very ignorant of what the Bible actually completely they read it and they only see little Parts like like we're talking about the the cognitive uh bias confirmation bias like and and it's like I know the word well enough to where you know uh they'll be telling me stuff about God based on a totally [ __ ] uh interpretation of a Biblical passage and and it's like and and no but they got the Holy Spirit God talks to me I'm hearing from him every day and I'm praying and it's just like it it hurts my heart because I'm just like it does you're making you're making this up in your own mind and am I doing the same and according to that Bible man they're the ones that are saved because they have faith like children and that's [ __ ] up to me it's like like why are they the ones that view or I don't know yeah I don't know either dude I I that it it bugs me too you know and then they're doing all this other stuff it's just so not biblical and I'm just like you what or I just think they're deluding themselves obviously you know and and it's so it's so annoying to me and then here pastors preach on this stuff that's just total it's just [ __ ] and everyone's amending amen amen yeah at the beginning of the service you have a hundred people in that place all praying Holy Spirit please reveal reveal uh your will to us God's will through the word and all this stuff and they're amending this crap that this guy is just making up and it's like you guys don't notice it I want to get up in the middle of it and she's like don't you notice this guy just made that [ __ ] up yeah like right then like they're adding to it like yeah or even there and I go to these churches like my wife goes to where they're like oh we read every passage of the Bible we go book we go cover to cover back and forth and re read verse by verse and like as he's reading it he's slipping words in yeah and I'm like you didn't just see that like my wife you didn't just see did you see this that changed the whole meaning of the whole passage to fit his theological contract mind you don't see that it's brainwashed dude amen amen I'm just like [ __ ] what's going on here yeah like it just seems like brain like like brainwashed like idiots I'm not trying to be a jerk no but using crash language but I'm just being real dude it's driving me nuts absolutely I'm just like I've been that guy I remember two years or you know four years ago I was that guy amending that stuff not knowing the difference I was that guy and I've been that you know too like I've been there and so I'm just like oh that's where it's tough to say that's what's scaring me the most that's the most doubtful thing because I'm like I remember being that guy and being totally blind and now I'm showing like I said uh these these verses and shrunk to my wife and people and they just don't see what's right in front of their face like you know one of the taglines of the Reformation is uh by faith alone yep so faith alone yeah so it's not it's not by works it's by faith right and then so tell me this so you're an atheist guy well well for now for now it's crumbling but tell me tell me what tell me tell me what this and I'm just I'm just venting because this pisses me off and I want you as an objective party and whoever's listening to this that says uh the one of the the five Souls of reformation is you're not justified by what you're that you're justified by faith alone and there's only one passage in the entire Bible that has the words faith alone and I'm going to share it with you it says it's James 2 24 it says you see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone bro and I'll show that to my wife and she's and she doesn't see it right does it not say not by faith alone and that's the whole Banner of your movement is [ __ ] fit what the f you know right and I try and talk to these guys and I'm like do do you do you think that's a problem with your theology that the only time those words are ever in the whole entire Bible it's negating what you're saying it's like dude I don't understand you have uh 50 000 teams disagreeing with each other and yeah someone like you or I are caught in the middle of it because it's like I I just want a straight answer I just want the truth man please just give me the truth that's it a straight answer and I can't I ha I can't get it dude and everyone's saying I've got it and so yeah it's like yes and uh and I I told you this when we before we were recording but um I said at the top of the mountain it is separated by the people who were born there and the people who climbed it if you and I end up at the top of the mountain of Truth and we've figured it out and we know we figured it out and we know that we know that we figured it out and we're Resolute in whatever the belief is let's say it's Mormonism spoiler alert it's not but let's say it is please don't be that and and we get to the top and there's a bunch of Mormons there right that have been born there and their family their parents are there and their parents are there and so on we cannot have Community with them and the reason we can't have Community with them is because there will always be a difference between somebody like yourself and myself who have been to Hell and back clawing their way up that mountain and if we agree because we see this every day you and I see this every day if you and I walk up to a Christian you and I know more about the belief that they say that they believed and they yeah so how are we supposed to have Community with somebody when they happened upon the answer but they didn't show their work you know they just they know it's 42. and they don't know what math is yeah they don't know how to get there they didn't do the yeah yep and I think that's like that's my resist and it probably sounds arrogant as hell for what I just said but like that's I think a big part of my resistance where it's like whenever I hear somebody say like oh you'll come around there could not be a more infuriating thing to to tell somebody whose knuckles are bleeding whose knees are skinned who's been clawing their way over the broken glass of of epistemology struggling to find an answer only for somebody who's never moved from their couch say you'll get there forget their palettes okay oh my God it's just yeah like you're stuck in that falling dream and you're just falling in the bottomless pit that's all it is you know yeah and they're just like oh yeah they spin you know yeah I totally I feel you I don't know man what the hell do we do Matthew I don't know brother but hey maybe we're Maybe and I know that's my son corny but I'm saying maybe God's Gonna give us conviction and maybe he doesn't like it either maybe he's gonna like say why don't you guys go tell them what it's really like or something or or be okay with not knowing here's the thing like dude we he's got two really good Warriors that he's that he's sleeping on he's sleeping on two Ace weapons in the hole you know and and that's you know one thing that really scares me though is I am a magic pill Seeker I am a cult follower by heart I will I have tried every flavor of cult that you can imagine besides veganism and Islam and I'll you know I can be convinced of anything no matter what so I'm so scared that like if I do become a Christian it's just going to be taken away in six months oh yeah if you're arguing into it you can be argued out and see that's another thing I think Nick what grounds me in it the only reason I'm in it is because I have that kind of an anecdotal experiential thing you know that I can kind of hold on to or something and I think that something like that might be what's going to help you too you know I don't know because if you can be talked into it you can be talked out and that's you know that's what I'm trying to do with this film is is get that road to Damascus yeah oh yeah and you and and I know I'm not trying to be like the guy you just said oh you'll come around I really truly believe it's gonna happen for you I just ever since the first time I heard your first interview on David's show I was just like dude he's I'm not worried about you at all man well I I really I really think I really think that I'm worried about myself but but I don't know but just even talking to you I'm encouraged just even by talking to you man my faith has been encouraged from this conversation which is weird yeah that is that is screwed up how it's it's just it because it's bringing back to mind that reality that I was forgetting of where I was at Ground Zero because yeah you pick up the kids you go to work you forget all this stuff and all these doubts creep in and I still am a debate junkie I'm listening to The Atheist sermons now you know that's all the humans preaching their sermons and I listen to them and they have a lot of good questions that I still haven't had any good answers to so it's not like the issues and they always want in the apologist I always want to screw it around it I don't want anyone to skirt around it I need someone to take your head on it I'll take it on any question you have for me I'll I'll go head on I'm not an expert or anything but I mean I'll be honest at least like I'll I'll tell you yeah it says some pretty bad stuff about slavery and all that stuff yeah that's in the Bible I've said it I've seen it I've read it I've looked up the original languages I know all that stuff and all these guys want to him haul around all these really hard kind of gross things and all these other things no it's there and if I'm gonna accept this thing then I have to buy all of that so that's a that's an issue right I can't make something up to make it softer uh go down easier because then I'm just lying to myself and I don't want to have to do that so yeah you can help me with you can help me with that type of stuff yeah well we definitely have to help each other where because I see the temptation as I'm starting to explore more like as my atheist walls are being broken down I see the temptation to become less intellectually rigorous because it is it's comfortable to have a cohesive worldview right it's it's comfortable to be able to say oh this all fits together perfectly it's seamless and then to just ignore the areas that are just blatantly missing reality like they're not even close uh you want to be sure of yourself but this guy's GK Chesterton and Catholic guy you probably heard a GK he says if you want to be sure of yourself he said the most the people who are the most sure of themselves are the people in the mental institutions you know that guy is so sure of himself that he is the Queen of England you cannot convince him every argument you have he has a counter argument of why he is the Queen of England he's the most sure of himself of anyone or a singer who can't sing yeah they're sure of themselves you don't want to be sure of yourself like that dude you want to have that skeptical of mine or else you're that's when you're sure of yourself and all of your stuff fits together that's when you can be assured that you're probably the furthest away from any the real truth that's where I'm a little bit worried about uh about David because he's it's just too nice though yeah no that's the problem it's just too kind he's just too genuine no but like he I I kind of when I first started listening to him it wasn't as apparent but now I start to see like he's bought into um The Cult side of Catholicism not not the religion side the cult side and there is I think a distinction and it is a little bit worrisome where man if he's if he's wrong by one atom that's a big problem because his whole house comes down yeah yeah and so it's like he he's he's taking the the bow and arrow shot from three miles away versus the general Catholic religious person who's like yeah there's a God and the Eucharist and stuff um that's a lot safer um he's going for it hard and he even says it too it makes me cringe when he's like yeah if they found out one thing that they said was wrong he's like I'm abandoning Christianity altogether I'm like do you really think that they didn't get one thing wrong yeah all these guys coming up I'm just like oh man it scares me for him but the thing that okay so I was just about to fall off the edge just about to fall off the edge and then I was just looking up Aaron raw debates because I kind of love the guy even though he makes some bad arguments sometimes a lot of the times but he's fun to listen to and he makes has some really great points too like really really great points but anyways uh and then I found his uh debate with David and then just just the confidence that David had I was like I need that I want that I have to talk to this guy and talk to him about that month yeah why the hell is he a Catholic though yeah I'm like a Catholic why I mean he seems to know God and everything I'm like I freaking get policy and that's like the worst thing I'm like I gotta talk to this guy and then I talked to him and he pretty much did in that that it's so attractive that that piece and that's what advances are here and we have history and there are good arguments he has good there are good arguments that the Catholic church is the true church and that if even with all of its problems all warts and everything I mean it it there is some good I mean it could be that could be legit and I'm still I'm still looking into it I'm still not 100 but I'm I'm looking into Orthodoxy as well but um like you said it could just be another bunch of people making these claims but I I want that it's like it's my Catholicism is my last ditch effort of Christianity and it's the last place I ever wanted to go but that actually makes it more convincing to me too because Christianity in general was the last place I wanted to go and then I found truth and peace and all of that in that uh so maybe it is you know the last place I would look would be the Catholic Church to tell you the truth like seriously I mean I I've hated the Catholic church for my whole oh yeah life for sure it's like they're the [ __ ] the [ __ ] of Babylon and all that in the pedophile priest and like oh yeah my parents were catholic so I'd always be at every dinner like trying to convert them like you know just talking crap about the pope and all that stuff and that's being an annoying little [ __ ] yes dude you just you're denarating like the last few years of my life really yeah dude we're brothers man that's what it is but there is a I think so there is a romantic aspect of Catholicism that I think David has seen and that he's fallen in love with that I that I desire I want it I do I want it too and I think there's some serious things it's the thing too like we just have to get in you know I was like I don't know I don't want to give it I'm scared to like pray to Mary I'm scared to do any of that stuff I still don't want to do that but I don't know man I I mean I'm investigating all these other claims and all these other deals and it's just like I I know that there's truth in Christ I know that man uh but I don't even know what that sentence means all this stuff surrounding it just when I when I'm reading that stuff and reading some of the stuff Jesus said it's just like it it cuts to the core I mean you know and it's not like I wanted to and like you said uh I I would actually be fine now with like annihilationism like sometimes I just want to die and just be over with I don't have to worry about all this Cosmic [ __ ] like oh my gosh I have have I been loving well enough have I been doing this at like this this scrutiny the scrupulosity that all of this stuff and to be an atheist it would almost feel good just to give up Mr none of this even matters who cares I'm just gonna die I mean I've been in lights out for years lights out never had that peace I'm just yeah I mean when I was in that Darkness phase it's like I had to take you know a lot of substances to be okay with just being alive yeah absolutely you have to you have to numb out okay because the trauma of existence when you're in a universe that doesn't mean anything but you're still there and you're still awake and there's no filter on that cigarette like you've got to find a way to numb out for sure yep and and there's nothing and if that is the case no it up who cares I right yeah I'd go I'd go for it it does not matter I would I would I would be like you know eat and drink for tomorrow we die who who cares oh lights over I just want to sleep and go away forever because sometimes I don't really want to live forever I don't want I'm just tired and I'm tired of stuff and I'm just like dude I just want to fall asleep never get up and just lights out I think that would be nice but yeah yeah I mean I hear that you know what I mean just because I'm so worried I have to worry about all this stuff all the time like I'm going to hell I'm going to hell in my in my it's my life am I leaving as for Christ am I this and that and it's just sometimes it's like it's not straightforward enough yeah just to not it's too yeah too nebulous too uh that's a problem like yeah you can't get a clear answer it's too ambiguous yeah if if Catholicism were more straightforward if it were more concrete I think it would be incredible it would be so much more um Peace inducing as opposed to anxiety inducing right yeah but there's a lot of anxiety with it but because it's like you said it's so nebulous it's you can't hang your hat on it it's like I would rather have the definity of annihilation where I don't have to worry because there is no I Yep this is fine yeah but then we but then what if we wake up in that thing dude like you experienced it and I've experienced it just think think of like an accordion uh like when you when you pull an accordion apart but you you put the two ends uh horizontal and it makes that like rainbow yeah and then picture that as the um when you put two mirrors together and you see those infinite reflections and you're in the middle of that bouquet and you're dissected into all of those pieces and you're trapped right there I can't I don't want to do that I can't do that that's where I've been I've seen that for a few seconds it seemed like when you guys are talking about being in in that spot where you think it's hell pretty much that's what it is that that's what I I've been right there and when you guys are talking about that I remembered that and it felt that for a second and dude I I don't I don't know whatever it takes to avoid that I will do and I think it's real dude I'm telling you well it's real because I've been there yeah yeah I mean and our and our minds are just creating this out of out of nothing I don't know I guess that's possible anything's possible because you know and isn't it a trip to like psilocybin all these things that make LSD there's compounds there's LSD in your brain already it's a chemical yeah LC it's just yeah it's just causing your brain to release something that's already there for you to experience there it's crazy what the [ __ ] is the evolutionary uh point of that you can come up with whatever you want I don't know dude some of it we just we just need to take heed man I don't know but but I should probably I should probably cut it Loose here I could talk to you forever man I love this this is great but I should probably go attend to the family and uh I really hope this uh worked out I don't know no this will not be the last conversation and I'm I'm really grateful for you coming on here man