Catholic vs. Jew - 2018-01-11 - Jana

Author Recorded Thursday January 11th, 2018

There are 5 episodes in the Versus:Jew series.

Recorded January 11th, 2018

Catholic vs. Jew - 2018-01-11 - Jana

Recorded February 4th, 2017

Catholic vs. Jew - 2017-02-04 - Natalie

I met Jana through Ben. She studied religion, but worked in television. She became a therapist after doing group-therapy as a research project for the 'Being Erica' TV show, which Jana created and wrote. She is culturally Jewish, but identifies as a hedonist. It was a real pleasure chatting with her.To be my guest, email me at :

Catholic vs. Jew - 2018-01-11 - Jana

Author Recorded November 6th, 2016



These YouTube transcripts are generated automatically and are therefore unformatted and replete with errors.
hi my name is Jana and you're listening to Catholic versus Jew so just tell the listener a little bit about yourself if you would please who you are what you believe and how you came to believe it well I was raised in Toronto and my family belonged to a conservative Jewish synagogue I went to Hebrew school and had a but Mitzvah in Israel at the age of 12 I went to a Jewish ish overnight camp and grew up to marry a Jewish man and have Jewish babies but when I was at university I decided to major in Christianity so I did four years at McGill of New Testament studies church history focus on the Gospels and got deep into learning about Jesus and engaging with various Christian communities I've been interested in religion my whole life but have never been able to really connect to the observant side of my religion of Judaism I looked into it I got involved with chabad-lubavitch briefly but felt pretty alien aided by the restrictions specifically around women and ended up becoming a very secular Jew and moving more towards spirituality that feels more meaningful to me an easier way for me to connect with God which is not through Judaism did you ever look into the Kabbalah no I didn't I think I just had to sort of had it you know like after university you know I was drawn to a very observant practice it's like I wanted something that was intense and felt spiritual and I wanted a community and the Orthodox community it was just like a bad fit for me you know there's a lot of rules in Judaism and I bought you know I chafed against a lot of rules I'm a TV writer I create and run TV shows and I created a TV series called being Erica which was probably the most Jewish television series ever in Canada about a Jewish girl who time travels and we did tons of religious themed episode it's about circumcision bris is about Passover and Hanukkah and Bat Mitzvah at like everything so there's a way it's always sort of there in the background of my life but it's not in my day-to-day life how are you introduced to this idea of God do you have a really early memory about learning how to pray maybe at meals or maybe at bedtime can you just talk a little bit of some of the highlights growing up um I would say that was none of that was present it was a pretty irreligious household you know there was no praying to God there was a lot of sort of discomfort I think my parents felt a lot of uncertainty about their own relationship to God and I really only discovered God and my own relationship to God later in life Judaism was really cultural it was about the holidays it was about family it was about food it was not about God you know it was not about God I mean it was in opposition to Christianity in a lot of ways you know like there was a lot of you know in the shadow of Christianity you know like the minority religion in a sea of Christianity somehow that that was the emphasis but God wasn't really around so can you paint a little picture of your own philosophical journey the different sort of avenues that you might have explored perhaps you went down into Buddhism or maybe he went it to hardcore atheism I don't know what journey went on but there must have been some twists and turns along the way if you could just talk a little bit about that we good well I mean it really started I mean I was a kid and I didn't think a lot about God or religion beyond my bat mitzvah and the trip to Israel which was impactful because I got to see Islam Christianity and Judaism collide in this one place and then I went to university and that's really where it all started for me and I was sort of looking around and wanting to feel something wanting to be a part of something and I turned to Judaism first and couldn't find the meaning I was or the community I was looking for there and then I started rabbinic in I was just heavily into the Religious Studies department and I didn't I did some Buddhism courses but I never seriously felt drawn there it was really Judaism and Christianity and I was really like into the passion of the evangelical Christians they were into converting me and they seemed to have a very sort of active relationship with God you know it was God was in their in their lives in such an intimate way and I saw like a lot of pleasure I could feel you know that they had something good going on and that it was connected to their relationship with God but then you know when I would get into it with them is similar to the problems I was having with Orthodox Judaism you know with sort of all of the religious people I would encounter is that I couldn't get around the things that didn't make sense to me like sort of the regulation so the rules you had to follow and there was a sort of you know faith first and then like and then it makes sense later you know and I just it just didn't it wasn't a good fit for me so I was frustrated but still very very drawn you know I did four years of all religious studies courses and then graduated with a lot of knowledge about the Bible and about theology and all you know all these Christian theologians and no job prospects at all as a Jewish girl with Christianity degree so I ended up becoming a screenwriter probably because thinking about Bible stories something about the magic of the viola there's like some connection there that I haven't quite been able to figure out but it's it's maybe connected to why I became a storyteller and I ended up writing the show that was about this Jewish girl who travelled back in time in this form of time-travel therapy and therapy was something that I didn't know anything about I'd never been to therapy I had a life that was in my view very together you know I was a kind of successful job and I was married and I had two children and I my view was that therapy was for people who were really struggling but in the third season of the show we were doing group therapy and I felt like I needed to research group therapy in order to write about it because I'd been sort of fumbling my way through the first two year three years on the therapy front but I couldn't fumble my way through group therapy so the production company paid for me to go down to California and participate in this really out there group therapy workshop that I'd heard about those run by a woman named and Brad nee and that was I guess the beginning of my entry into spirituality that ultimately you know became what it is for me today like how I connect today so this this workshop I took my husband with me to that two-day event because when I spoke to her on the phone the facilitators she said that I couldn't audit it which was my original intention that I had to participate and the experience was so intense for us that it led to us going back a year later to a week-long group therapy retreat with her which ultimately led to us both deciding to go back to school to become therapists individually and he went to school in California and I went to school in New York and now we're both therapists and over the course of this process I would have experiences in these groups you know with other people where I would feel extremely expanded and I would cry and I would feel like I kind of unitive experience of God you know that was very powerful and had a deep and lasting impact on me so I guess that's that's where I am now so what is the sort of title of your new worldview how would you describe it originally this podcast was going to be Catholic versus hedonist right that's not a category there aren't enough hedonist that I have a whole category just for that you'll have to dispel some of the misconceptions that I probably have about what hedonism is maybe not I think it's a very simple definition tell me about what your view is the hedonism pleasure-seeking yes that's right that's not a misconception that is 100 percent accurate I am intensely pleasure-seeking intensely did you study the early Greek Epicureans and the whole range of philosophies centered hedonism um a little tiny bit it's a modified version of hedonism I mean I think the general view of heat ism is it's pretty negative you know it's sort of like pleasure for pleasure sake with no regard for others or I mean hedonism has a bad rap I mean I actually think pleasure has a bad rap in general which i think is outrageous because I think pleasure is wonderful I think it's one of the main points of life to be in pleasure yeah well this would be a good time for you to give a sort of sales pitch for hedonism and for pleasure generally just talk from your perspective what have you learned um well I think that it's a lot easier for people to tolerate suffering than to tolerate ecstasy ecstasy is a very difficult thing to surrender to completely and suffering it's like a lower vibration or something and it's easier to be in most people think like yeah like I like pleasure you know I like having a good time but sort of total undefended like extreme pure pleasure is very hard to tolerate because it's very very big I think I in some ways I think it's one of the harder things to feel I mean I'm interested in feelings and how much we're able to feel as adults as children we move from big feeling state to big feeling state very very easily you know you'll see a child go from like rage to joy to terror to sadness and they feel big and they feel a lot and it moves quickly it's like they're in the flow of their feelings and adults are much number their feelings are smaller they get stuck in them for longer and most of us don't have access to certain feeling States at all you know there's people who never cry who haven't cried the years and certainly who haven't cried in a big messy way the way we all teen Lee cries children and my view is that when you narrow the range of your feelings you get less access to yourself so you if you can't feel deep pain you can't really feel deep pleasure either or deep terror I mean we shut off these feelings and and control them because we're taught to in order to be socialized and grow up and and and you know gain control of our impulses and I think that's a very good thing I think it has this unfortunate side effect which is that then we're sort of numb largely as adults and you see it when you look at the average child and compare them to the average adult so I'm my sort of goal in life is to have full access and full willingness to feel everything that is inside of me I think that a lot of choices we make in life are about you know we think we're making them for rational reasons but we're actually making them out of unconscious feeling avoidance because if we make a certain choice it might take us towards feeling something we don't want to feel and so we don't go there but if you're willing to feel everything then you're free in the world in a sort of magnificent way and that's what I'm into I don't go too deep into the theoretical psychological side but can you just name drop a few names of people that resonate with your philosophical psychological therapeutic approach sure I mean the kind of you know I mean it's such a new discipline you know Freud and Jung but I mean the other guy the main guy that the discipline comes out of for me is Bela helm right who's sort of the bad boy of psychology like went crazy and got thrown in jail and was sort of discredited but earlier in his you know it was sort of him Jung and Freud and Reich nobody really talks about because he went off the rails but his whole thing was the body working with the body the life of the body and he had some very good ideas so that's the guy that I'm mainly interested in this segues nicely into my next question which has to do with madness and becoming unhinged can you just talk a little bit about extreme feeling and extreme vulnerability and extreme openness and how it connects with genius and with madness what do I want to say about madness you know there's a feeling of ungrounded 'no slike a lot that can happen like a losing of contact with the ground or with reality like in a really expanded state you know you know you can it's like a balance it's like you like I want to be open to God and to spirit but not lose the my connection to the to reality you know reality the embody I'm walking around on this planet you know and that sort of balance is important to maintain I tend some people tend to have a harder time being in the world and some people tend to have a harder time opening to God I'm the second type you know this is just I I wouldn't say that I know a lot about madness you know it's it's not something I mean for a therapist you know I don't work with people who are who have any kind of severe mental illness at all like it's the kind of work I do is not appropriate for them it's destabilizing because what I'm actually trying to do is destabilize people's defenses so that they have to have like good contact with reality and good grounding any innate in order to do this work where you feel a lot you open a lot and if they don't then yeah they're gonna go a little crazy it's not good for them so I screen people I work with for that exact reason I came to God through solipsism solipsism is the belief that only I exist now that I'm a monotheistic to have God in my life obviously and it's changed my whole outlook on everything philosophy and religion and love and morality and everything but I can still sort of dabble with the solipsism and it really is like a drug trip when I was in my 20s I would just talk to myself I would walk to work for half an hour and then walk home for half an hour during that half hour just talking nonsense and over the course of time doing this morning and evening every day I started to go insane but part of me said don't go any further because there's no turning back no did you feel any kind of Terror or fear no so what made you decide not to keep going I felt like this Playland that I was entering was less real than the world that had things like social conformity and normalcy and etiquette and you know the things I was doing in public were a little bit embarrassing but anyway we can move on from the madness topic I am curious though what your perspective is on the Catholic Church as compared to some of the other denominations I don't know if you know anything about the history of the Catholic Church or what you learned at school but did you have a prejudice against the Catholic Church or did you like it or what did you think of the Saints some of the mystical Saints might have grabbed your attention they did they did I mean you know there's like a deep appreciation of beauty you know which I which I really there's like it feels like there's a lot of pleasure in that in sort of the gorgeousness of the churches and sort of the richness of all the saints you know like the diversity and the the stories like I feel very compelled by that stuff I mean it's also same sort of struggles with the rules but you know I'd be interested in learning more about it actually what do you think about the notion of freedom is freedom central or is it a little bit peripheral to your pleasure-seeking it's humongous humongous freedom is central to my life okay yeah because that's the central idea in Catholicism freedom is defined as the ability to do good so all of the perfections goodness unity just as truth beauty they all reside in one source which is God and we come from God and were designed to go back to God this is the whole story that's why we're here so we're gonna have infinite pleasure infinite freedom infinite joy infinite peace all the good things the truth the love the beauty everything so it sounds pretty hedonistic when you think about heaven but in the meantime there is a little bit of restraint required because there are traps and dangers that would prevent us from having all of that infinite goodness you know it's funny that all sounds exactly right to me should go I'm just like yeah yep yep that's true you know so the kind of pleasure you're talking about is this very you know it's this very high vibration like love like sort of pure it's that kind of pleasure there's another kind of pleasure which is negative pleasure which is place where we get our pleasure when we're walking around in bodies is you know you get pleasure from being cruel you get pleasure in your addictions you get pleasure from chasing things winning withholding you know from other people pleasure from denying yourself I mean there's just all kinds of things there's all kinds of ways creative ways to get pleasure negatively and I think there's a cost to it and sometimes I choose to pay the cost and sometimes I don't you know I think the thing that I find difficult is you know I don't really understand sex like how sex works with the kind of unit of God pleasure that you're talking about it doesn't work that well with with the kind of with the God stuff the Bible does describe like for example in the Song of Solomon the sort of sexual union that Jesus has with this church and I'm part of the church right so there's a sort of idea of intimacy Union and the whole story of our pilgrimage here below is that we are on our way into the bridal chamber we go into the tent we close the door and we have that intimacy and that ecstasy this I think about this every day I'm very very excited about that aspect of intimacy I mean God invented sex sex is one of the highest goods that we have there's a book you might be interested in it's called the thrill of the chaste right have you heard of it no but I can imagine I can imagine yeah I mean look I you know this is the problem like everything it's like we're taught it's like two different languages right you know when you talk about Jesus and the sexual union between Jesus and the church it's beautiful you know and it's sexual I mean it's like all of creation is sexual I like I get that and it's not a turn-on it's not a rousing you'd like to anybody I hope not you know like the things that are arousing to us you hope not the things that are arousing to us have dark in them you know they have darkness in them the things that turn us on you know and so how to live in the worlds with a body that gets turned on by all these dark things you know because the you know the the turn-on comes from like wounded places in us and there's also a lot of goodness there there's a lot of healing there I really believe that so I'm not interested at all in giving that up like it's not right for me I want the full human experience and there's been a lot of healing for me through sexuality and a lot of feeling God through my sexuality and you know so it but it's like when I feel God in the way that you're talking about it's my heart you know or it's my whole being it's not sex it's it's not sex yeah it's more that anticipation it's like I'm in the trenches in wartime and I have a photo of my beloved and I'm looking at the photo not with lust but with Trula pure love and I'm kissing the photo anticipating that intimacy and that union that I'm gonna have once this horrible war is over and I can leave these muddy trenches and go back to my beloved so I am very excited there's a lot of love and there's a lot of anticipation of intimacy and union but yeah it's certainly not sexual in any sort of no right I am actually disgusted with myself like the other day I was looking up an innocent image on Google image search and lo and behold they're like naked women right I'm not disgusted by naked women I think it's a beautiful wonderful thing but I was disgusted with the sort of animalistic lusty thing that stirred in me for you maybe that's like oh there's an opportunity to heal some wounds but for me it's like I've turned away from that yeah see this is the place we fundamentally disagree you know like I think that you are man who was born with a body and it's awesome it's gorgeous I love men's desire I think it's important for the world you know like one of my favorite things to see and to experience in life is men who are out of control with desire whose have abandoned their brains and our bodies that are just consumed with lust they get a look in their face their eyes like it's like a heavy-lidded like drugged look and I feel like most men really defend against feeling you know that they're men that they want they want so much and as a woman you know when I feel it from a man I feel the perfection of something I feel God in that in the power of it so it's been one of my major missions in life to support men to have their desire fully I'd like to see it as a source of your goodness and your power and your creativity and your connection to God not as something disgusting let's say you see these naked women right on the screen that come and you suddenly feel a response why can't you just like breathe in that response it's like feel that the eroticism I can but if I say yes to the lust that's growing in me naturally that's a sin I'd go to hell if I died at that moment because I've said yes to temptation what sinful about it though in a well-ordered life you're not grasping at things that are not yours I think it has to do with justice it has to do with truth like I often use this analogy that you can use a hammer to put a screw into a block of wood but it's better to use the screwdriver the hammer will work but it's going against the nature of the screw and it's the same thing with a lot of sexual acts which I've engaged in which were pleasurable but which we're going against the nature of the human body and what man and woman were made for so it has to do with our human nature I think this is the answer man and woman were made to be united one man one woman in marriage to have that openness to life that procreation is possible you're not going to block that you're not going to block the loving aspect either you're going to use the tool for what it was exactly what it was made for it's there's going to be more benefit to you more pleasure long term and there are complications that come from having a society who has abandoned this basic building block of the family I think that's a key component also if we look at divorce rates if we look at the home life is the father around in the child's life there are all kinds of consequences which may not be apparent at first sight but which seem to be developing in our Western culture since the sexual revolution fidelity honoring our commitments you know the the beauty that can exist in a marriage you know like all of that stuff like I'm totally down makes so much sense to me but denying it's like denying a laugh or denying your tears it's like you didn't go looking for anything you saw a picture of a naked woman and you were sad a response the way you would you would startle if somebody jumped out of a dark room at you you'd be scared or the way you would laugh at a funny joke or the way you'd cry something that made you sad you had a perfectly natural response which was attraction you know or desire or whatever and it doesn't make any sense to me that that particular natural body response merits disgust you know when all the other ones are like oh yeah of course you know no like I said everything about sex is good if it's done in the right place in the right time in the right context in a well-ordered fashion I don't I'm not saying that wholesome saintly Catholic couples don't have wild and uninhibited sex they do okay but I'm talking about this moment yeah I'm talking about the moment - but the moment is an opportunity and I would see the same opportunity if the nice old lady in the sitting on the bus next to me had her purse gaping open and she was gazing around her out of touch with reality and I see a couple of hundred dollar bills just hanging loose sort of blowing in the breeze and I'm about to fall out of her purse that's an opportunity my natural impulse is to grab it and shove it my pocket and get off the bus is that your natural impulse I mean I really want to challenge you on that is that actually your natural impulse yeah it is by nature I'm a thief so I know that impulse when the opportunity is there and I wasn't a big-time thief I wasn't talented at it or anything it's just my nature I have an inclination there are a lot of married men that don't subscribe to any wild philosophy but they just happened to be middle-aged men and their sagging wife compared to their sexy secretary there's a little bit of a difference there and they tend to go for the secretary this happens time and time again they saw the opportunity they took it they heard the Secretary's husband they heard their own wife they heard their children they heard a bunch of people but they just took the selfish option and in if you talk to them they're like it's the best thing I ever did we're so much happier we're traveling we're doing this we're doing that to me they missed the point you know the point is that you don't just cease every selfish opportunity that comes your way well you can see selfish opportunities but I believe there's always a cost you have to decide if you want to pay it I don't think anyone ever gets away with it anything really not really you know but I think marriage I think you can make it up like I think you can do what you want in your marriage you eat like an agreement between two people and yeah I'm not I'm not into lying you know like I like I want my marriage to be grounded in truth but I also don't want to be told what to do you know thought the whole thing about infidelity the reason it bothers me is because it's a lie not because there's anything wrong with getting involved with somebody else when they're already married to one person there are many many many teachings of the Catholic Church that I accept without fully understanding them but I do accept them even if I didn't understand them even if I thought that they were confusing or a sort of paradoxical I would still accept them because I believe I'm committed to the church now I just want to compare that with your own sort of religious worldview you do believe in God but do you believe that there's God in forces or commands for example the Ten Commandments or something like that is there some sort of moral guideline that you get from your relationship with God and where do you find that ya know so this was exactly remember I said there's I found in all the religions it was like you have faith and then it makes sense later or maybe it doesn't make sense like you practice like you follow what is command and then it you began to understand why you know it's sort of the beauty of having faith you know and this was always very challenging for me I couldn't do it like I didn't want to I was like this is doesn't work for me to do something that feels wrong or that I don't understand not only do I not understand it just says it doesn't feel right it doesn't feel true to me I mean in for instance in Judaism you know we're commanded to circumcise our sons right I mean it's pretty it's a big deal it's like even all the Jews who don't do anything still do that you know it's like one of the last things all Jews do and it's really really clear it's like the covenant with Abraham you know it's like the beginning of the Jewish people it's like a very important commandment and when I had my son I had a freak out because I felt like I was gonna have to circumcise him and I wasn't sure why I was doing it and I went you know and I got a big conversation with my husband and I know everyone we know is circumsized it's like it's not like it's anyone is not and we went and looked in the Bible and we looked at the whole passage on circumcision and I read it and then like right underneath it there's this other passage and God gets into this whole thing with Abraham about how like if you sell your daughter as a slave this is how much you should ask for her you know and that was it for me I was just like okay so like these two things are right next to each other you know it's clear that one of them is not a thing that I'm not down with and so why am I gonna like blindly go down with this one I'm not I'm not circumcising my kid and it was a huge issue in my family you know it was like my you know it was just it was a big deal but this has always been an issue for me with religion it's like I feel so drawn I can't do things don't make sense to me and I don't get pleasure I don't feel peace I don't feel held in that experience I feel alienation so how to feel connected to God coming from where I come from does it ever happen to you that something is taught or commanded by the church and something inside you says no well yeah I mean there's a famous line in the New Testament where Paul says my flesh is warring against my spirit there's like a battle there's an internal tension right between the old man and the new man and the old man is the man of sin and the new man is the free man that's uniting himself to Christ and we're supposed to kill our old man die to sin and be reborn you know but is it a sin for me as a Jew to not circumcise my son I mean I guess it is you know it's a sin it's absolutely a sin to not circumcise my son I mean God commanded it really really clearly from your Jewish perspective but the problem with trying to adhere to Judaism today is that I think it's pretty clear if you look at the history of the Jewish people that they were promised a messiah and everything pointed to Jesus and Jesus fulfilled the the prophecies and he's the Messiah I mean I'm very very comfortable saying that Judaism today has missed the point and there are even passages in the New Testament that talk about the reason why a lot of the Jews didn't recognize the Messiah it's part of God's plan there's a good reason for it it's not like God was sweeping the floor and he missed the part in the corner over there like some Jews that didn't get the message or whatever he knows what he's doing this a reason and every single Jew will be saved every Jew will be swept up into the Catholic Church this is one of the most bizarre things about my religion I don't know any other religion that guarantees the salvation of another world view but not its own people really is that true we're all guaranteed salvation yeah now the question is who is a Jew what is a Jew I mean is Woody Allen a Jew this is the famous question I always ask my Jewish guests is he a Jew so I I don't understand the teaching but I accept the teaching and I'm excited about the teaching because I've always loved the Jews and I continue to love the Jews I don't understand the modern Jews but I have obviously a deep romance with this idea of the chosen people and the whole story is very colorful it's very human there's a lot of drama and they're just lovable fun exciting smart people even today I'm talking about it like the Jews you know I disagree with their theology since the Messiah came but I might have been exaggerating a little bit when I said that even Catholics ourselves are not guaranteed salvation we are guaranteed salvation if we're truly Catholic so this is the question again who is a Catholic is Joe Biden a Catholic I don't think so but you know I can't judge him he's Justin Trudeau a Catholic I don't think so but you know only God knows what's in that man's herd every indication is he's not Catholic so this is the question who's a Jew who's a Catholic who you know and there's a principle that I like to lean back on which is it's none of your business this is a Catholic principle mind your own business it sounds good okay so I don't need to lay awake at night worrying about Woody Allen or Justin Trudeau right and their salvation or Hitler for that matter right right right yeah I didn't know that about the Jews I didn't know that we were guaranteed salvation although you know the whole chosen people thing is a very it's a unique setup you know III don't know what to make of it I'd like to investigate it more I mean and the way the Christian the romance with the Jews like Oh from the Christian side has always been like very interesting to me and you felt that among your Evangelic oh my god love they love the Jews all day long it's like you know it's yeah yeah it's a thing for sure there's the thing what do you think about the afterlife what do you have waiting for you on the other side um I have no idea I mean I you know I I don't presume to know I think we're not meant to know on some level I mean but the thing that makes the most sense to me which I go with is is reincarnation you know I feels to me like I'm here in this particular life with these particular constellation of people to learn something and that there are there's a way that I have like a life task you know like something I'm supposed to practice or learn about or be challenged with in this life and I can see that you know like if I look at my life I can see themes and I can see things that are hard for me and that I continue to work on and with and that might be with me for my entire life so that's what I think I think yeah that's what I think I'd like to plant a little seed in your mind your heart and your mind right now sure and that is that you've been fooled by Satan and the demons into thinking they are the life is pleasure and that you're gonna get another chance with reincarnation and don't worry don't worry about anything don't worry about morality we can't know the answers why while they're asking all this sort of stuff you've been fooled by Satan into believing all of that and it's all very cute and fun and life seems like you're in control and that everything is fine but when you're sick and dying or when you're approaching death I want this little seed that I'm planting to come and remind you that it's not too late yeah you made some bad decisions you you know you ignored God's commandments on morality but it's not too late you know you Oh David Oh David oh it doesn't sound heavy it's just I you know I mean it doesn't sound heavy I know it's not too late I can always turn back to God I can always always you know I can always decide I was wrong and turned back to God and see yeah I know I know I know you're not gonna like this but I was sitting in my room once and you know I closed my eyes and I said all right Jesus let's do this I said if you have anything to say to me now's the time and my whole room flick flooded with white light and I said no changed my mind actually no so yeah but you know i yeah i you know i I've had some I've had some talks with Jesus I mean in my time and you know look my feeling and I you're not going to agree with me is that Jesus and I are good you know that's what I thought that's what I was I know you're gonna think that was probably stating macerating is Jesus or something but I look on your experience as a good one that light filling the room or whatever and everything that happens I mean even if Satan himself came and the stench of him filled your room even if that happened that's a good thing too everything that happens is good and God's allowing it to happen you know for your greatest good everything that happens happens for your greatest good it's custom-made for you to maximize your eternal happiness ya know I mean we can definitely agree that everything that happens is for our greatest good I really believe that I trust that so on that note there are a lot of people out there that are sad and lonely depressed isolated I mean you should know your therapist right so what's a little message of hope that you could give to people what would you say to anyone that might be what they're listening now well I think I would just say something going off of you know what you said I would say trust trust life trust where your life is leading you trust God you know trust that's what I would say

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