Catholic vs. Protestant - 2019-10-02 - Marcela Best

Author Recorded Wednesday October 2nd, 2019

There are 31 episodes in the Versus:Protestant series.


I asked Jeremy Best's wife Marcela to be my guest, and she agreed. She was raised nominally Catholic in Columbia, but she never really connected with the faith. Marcela now considers herself a non-denominational Christian. I enjoyed our chat.


Catholic vs. Protestant - 2019-10-02 - Marcela Best

Author Recorded August 14th, 2016

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hello my name is Marcela best and you're listening to Catholic versus Protestant so just tell the listeners a little bit about yourself who you are what you believe and how he came to believe what you believe okay my name is Marcela best I am Colombian but I have lived in the United States for 19 years now I am married and we have five children ages 16 all the way through nine months old by trade I am a nurse but I am currently not practicing in my field because I stay home in order to homeschool my kids and take care of our special needs daughter I was raised in Colombia I went to an all-girls Catholic school my entire life from kindergarten all the way through when I graduated that we lived in a small town I just lived with my mom single mom and I have no siblings from my mom's side and the town where we lived it was a really small town everybody knew each other so I had the same friends in my school from kindergarten all the way through till I graduated we were all still friends we all still chat so I have a very long lasting relationship with school friends if you will it was also on all girls so it's probably a whole lot different than most people's school experience and maybe that's why I'm so passionate about education the way we try to do it I have four boys those are the ones currently doing school with me and I try to tailor a whole lot of things just on the boys side because I believe boys and girls are different but anyways I have to say that being a Catholic in Colombia you go through all these I don't know rituals and things that you do you don't know why and nobody else seems to know why except that you just do and that's what I grew up with going to Mass on Wednesday morning six o'clock in the morning but then you know I don't really remember anything we ever did so after when I got a little bit older and I started wondering and about you know is this God thing real and why are these nuns we were taught by nuns so why are these nuns you know so devoted to God and why are they here they don't go anywhere and and what is it about this God that they love so much and you know and I started wondering all these things about God I realized there's got to be more to a God that I didn't know so I left Colombia to come here to go to school and I met Jeremy my husband as you know about three weeks after I moved here we just became friends and did not started dating or anything until about four months or so after but I get to know this guy and he will say things like I hear from God and God speaks to me and to me that was really weird because God doesn't speak to you you don't hear from God you know how conversations with God God it's up there somewhere but he has nothing to do with you so I thought that this guy I would never go to like places by ourselves that wasn't other people because I said you know why I really like this guy but he's probably gotta be the guy that's gonna cut me up in little pieces because he's crazy because he hears from God so I never wanted to be like without a lot of people around us because I didn't really liked him but he was weird so you know we kind of got to know each other and I got to meet his family and they were you know so lovely and so nice and they all seemed to hear from God and God was like something real to them he wasn't just some sort of being up there somewhere that had nothing to do with you he was like tangible to them so I started you know hanging around them more and you know the relationship with my husband got a little bit serious my mom came over met the family we finally decided get marry and all that and some people will tell you I had this moment when God struck me dead and I got up and then boof I was I was saved or I was a Christian or this or that I don't believe like I had that for me it was it has been a long process of good things and bad things and God showing himself to me and I cannot pinpoint you the day that I became a Christian or anything like that it has been a long process of God fighting with me for me to mold me into Who I am today so you consider yourself neither Catholic nor Protestant is that called nondenominational airway well yes that that's what I would like to to call it I like to see myself as a nondenominational person I'm not a Catholic I'm not per se a Protestant I am NOT an Orthodox I the reason why I like it that way is because I want to be able to learn grow and then adapt to what I'm learning about and I feel like if you put me on a box over denomination then I cannot freely come and go as I see fit if that makes sense I also have these kind of problems with put me in a box or animation for a simple with homeschooling I homeschool people I don't have school robots and I don't like to be put into a particular style of homeschooling like I don't I'm not a Charlotte Mason home schooler or I'm not a classical home schooler I'm not a unit study homeschool or literature based home schooler I am a home schooler yes but I don't want to be put in a box because I need to be able to flow to go in and out of different places as I grow as I learn does that make sense yeah can we talk just a little bit more about your family how did they respond to your faith journey are you still in touch with very devout members of your family that still to this day remain Catholic if you ask my family are you a Catholic or do you have a religion or they will tell you yes oh yes we're Catholics Roman I don't know what it what it is that they say but they will tell you that they are for sure Catholics but they haven't been to church and the last 25 years the last time they went to church is when they got married they haven't read their Bible ever they don't know who most of the people in the Bible are they don't pray they do the sign with their hands when something's going wrong but that's ten you know and that that's that's the Catholic that I came from that's what I know yes when you say Catholic to me that's what it is all of them my family every morning um now if you ask them about me they will say that I am a hallelujah so to them everybody that is not Catholic they called them hallelujah because you know in a service or whatever you might raise your hands and you might say yes hallelujah Lord so yeah they make fun of people that are not Catholics they know that I have something different about me when it comes to the Lord that I believe passionately in my God that he is my Creator that's another thing that most of my family they are evolutionist so they came from monkeys I didn't and we try to be respectful about that but they they don't try to offend me or make fun of me or anything like that they they just know that I have this weird thing about me that I'm really particular about God that you can know you know make jokes about you know oh the Lord and Jesus and you know things like that but they see me as weird hallelujah you know I remember a few years back I was eating at a restaurant at the beach with some friends and it was a holiday the town was celebrating a particular Saint and we were looking down at the beach and a bunch of people on the beach carrying a statue of a virgin and they were dancing around and drinking I mean I'm talking about hundreds of people move to 300 people on the beach carrying you know this the statue around and walking around on the street and drinking and partying and music and is that how you celebrate a saint I mean I don't know but but but that it happens constantly for every reason all the time and I'm just here puzzle like what is this about so I guess different cultures have different ways of expressing themselves but my preference is to have silence so I can be with God I can pray but different cultures have different temperaments and we I guess we need to pick and choose where we're going to go and where we're gonna go and try to pray but let's talk a little bit about your faith journey I - I don't know if you know this about me but I also have my young earth creationist I don't believe in evolution I can remember as an atheist talking with my friends and just saying look I don't think that I come from apes I just don't think that that's the case but if you want to believe that that's fine yeah I think at some point a person has to choose to believe something you either by faith have to believe that you came from a rock or a monkey and then when I say faith it has to be faith because you have never seen a rock turn into anything else or a monkey turn into anything else so that is our belief that you have to have that does not come from science or anything provable so you either have to believe in that or not or the other choice would be to have faith that you were created so if we just put those two perspective side-by-side me personally I choose to believe and have faith that I was created I don't want to come from monkeys I have never seen a rock anything else or a monkey turn into anything else but I also have not seen God create something before me inside of me yes because I've had that choice and my choice for me is to believe that I was created and I am I'm teaching my children that they were created and God's image perfectly beautifully created and because of that a whole lot of responsibilities come to you because you are created in God's image so I'm trying to teach that to my children I let them know us well hey there's people that do not believe this way maybe one day you'll find out for yourselves why it is that they do not believe this way but what I would like for you to believe is this but ultimately it will be it will be your choice I try to science always approach it carefully from a creation perspective instead of an evolution perspective and I think that makes a huge difference for most people you know there the first encounter that they have with these thoughts are in school and in school you are not given the choice you are just told millions of years ago and that's it that's the end but when you are presented with both options then you start thinking what do I know about the real world have I ever seen a rock turn into anything else have I ever seen a monkey becomes something else well that doesn't make a whole lot of sense but then if my only choice will be to believe that we were created well that's a little bit nicer than you know don't you think that we were you know evolved from monkeys or whatever so you know at least at least you have a choice if you're presented with with both ideas but in school for for the majority of people you're not presented with both ideas you're just told it's billions of years ago and millions of years ago and millions of years ago and then that said that is how people you know grow up and even I went to a religious school and I never never heard about creation never from a religious school so that became very important to me I got into education of my children yeah I'm shocked and horrified with the the state of the education today the inordinate respect that is paid to Natural Sciences if Natural Science is the be-all and end-all and we have all the answers there's a lot that we can know but it's just the tip of the iceberg we know practically nothing and the more we learn the more we realize how much more there is to learn so I think that pride lies at the heart of scientism this religion of putting natural science on the pedestal I think pride is at the heart of that yes and humility is the antidote but it's hard to swallow your pride if you don't realize that you have a problem with pride and this is where religion comes in we need God to Humble us and sadly very often this manifests in the form of God allowing us to stray and when we stray from him the source of everything that's good guess what happens we suffer we have all kinds of Evil's befallen us error confusion yes lust and pride and all the rest and then once we fall into that dark dark place maybe some of us will cry out for help and then God can come and he can lift us up so speaking of Prayer what is your prayer life like Jeremy and I tried to pray at night together covering a whole lot of things you know especially our children are a relationship recently we you know since we're you know celebrating this new year we are in a period right now and this is a biblical holiday that we're celebrating Rosh Hashanah I'm not sure if you're familiar but we have said aside these next 10 days to see what are the areas that the Lord wants to work with us and you know be able to for us to recognize those things repent and to make a change for this coming year year to be a brand new start for the Lord so these past few days have been very focused on Scripture and prayer and it's amazing how these holidays have become so alive for me they're not rituals they are not just go through the motion kind of thing they're very alive and the lore has been showing me things that for for me he particularly are very important issues that I need to deal with you know the for these all these days are up and in reap and so lately I have been you know in the word I've been praying but I have to tell you the truth there's some other times that I have not even been able to get one prayer out recently as a month ago I got meningitis and I was very very sick the hospital and everything and in times like that I I can't even say Jesus is he'll help me but yeah I try to read my Bible for the sake of knowing the Lord more no because I have to but because I want to as much as I can that's far as sprayers goes I wanted to get some sort of idea from you about your community there are you in the minority or is there a very large segment of the population that believes what you and Jeremy believe no I will have to say we are right at the bottom bottom end of the minority if there is a minority that will be probably us if we can stand on an island with the minority of minorities that probably will be just us too as a family sometimes I feel like we are you know own and the things that we believe but yeah but then I find out that this is not the case however we do not have like a group of people that we get together with and celebrate like the biblical holidays that we like celebrating we don't have that neither from friends or family sometimes I'm kind of leery of telling people you know hey we you know we have been studying this particular holiday and we're you know celebrating it and we have been learning so much and the Lord's really speaking to us regarding this and because most people are gonna be like oh that's just weird that's religious are you even doing that that's not necessary that's done away with and you know so sometimes I just feel like it let's just don't tell anybody let's just do this by ourselves and let's enjoy this time with the lore and we'll just we'll just learn from all these things and just keep it to ourselves and you know my husband he he's very giving he always likes to share with people I'm the opposite let's just get lost in the bog and this doesn't tell anybody so I am okay with being isolated but him not so much I know he will love to find you know more community and maybe more people close by that kind of believes and you know the things that we do but yeah very isolated I would have to say okay what about public figures who preach the way that you and Jeremy accept at least a majority of their teachings even if you don't agree 100% with everything that this particular preacher or minister says are there some public figures that resonate really strongly if not completely with you yes yet there is a man that I that I see on Facebook all the time his name is Michael Brown he's actually a rabbi and he became messianic if that means he started believing in Joshua as his Savior I personally follow him and you know things that he puts out there and a lot of the things that he does resonates with me a lot also rabbi Ralph Messer in Colorado also has a lot of teachings that we've resonate with as a matter of fact from Rabbi Ralph Messer about I don't know maybe fifteen fourteen years ago it's when we started kind of learning the Hebrew roots of our faith so I'd have to you know give it credit for that there's another ministry out there and I think his holy language calm holy Language Institute they put in a lot of regarding the the the biblical holidays they put in a lot of really awesome information to kind of bring those things to life so I have I follow them quite a bit they're on Facebook Instagram and the website so yeah those three Holy Language Institute Michael Brown his Facebook is ask dr. Brown and Rabbi Ralph Messer out of the top of my head those are three we Christians at least the majority of us celebrate the Lord's Day on Sunday instead of the Sabbath on Saturday now there are the seventh-day Adventists who insist on the Saturday do you consider Sunday the holy day or Saturday or where do you fall on that issue I think I have a pretty liberal view on that particular topic we particularly celebrate the Sabbath on Saturday because we can some people get really hang-up into it has to be Saturday I don't see it like that I from the bottom o my heart I really believe is is a day the Lord does want us to rest is there going to be blessing for us because we separate a day onto him yes I do believe it I've seen it in my own life I have seen the struggle when I have not kept that day separated and I have also seen the blessing in my life when I have kept that day do people really need to take it to an extent it has to be Saturday I don't know I really don't know so it seems like there's a very strong emphasis on Judaism and the Hebrew language in the Old Testament and these sorts of things I just wonder how you decide where are you going to place the emphasis and how to moderate this interest or this emphasis on the old law yeah that's a great question and I do want to clarify I do have a strong influence on holidays and things like that but not so much like Judaism because Judaism is based on a whole lot of rabbinical traditions and I don't have those so I do want to make that distinction regarding Jewish holidays versus biblical holidays we try to look at these things from a biblical perspective are they in the Word of God are they in the Old Testament how was it done back then and what I have found about these things and the reason why I have increased in my amount of holidays that that I like to do is because of what we have learned all these holidays and celebrations and feasts and stuff like that they point out Jesus so clearly it's like you have to be blind in order to ignore this fact Jesus was there and it still is and every single one of them so if all these things are pointing out to him then we shouldn't be ignored and you know if you go back and read in the Old Testament it's like the message of do this for the rest of your life generation to generation that gets to me and and it makes me pause and think why aren't we doing this at what point did we stop doing this you know that kind of thing that makes sense yeah so you and Jeremy when it comes to biblical interpretation is there one that takes a lead more often than the other are you pretty much equal he definitely has more knowledge because he's a little more proactive in his personal studies he likes to study a lot he's a very intellectual person and he really puts in a lot of time learning and studying and researching and things like that but I believe we are partners he has things that I learned from him I believe he also has learned certain things from me too so I don't believe that he's you know dragging me into anything I'm definitely not dragging him into anything and I respect and value very much this order that we have in our home that the Lord has established my husband is a king a priest of our home and he looks up to the Lord for guidance and I don't want to take that away we have an order here in our home that was established in the Word of God we all respect it we like to keep it that way and if I have to say is he the leader the spiritual leader of our home absolutely he is and I am forever thankful that the Lord has blessed me with such a strong man with a godly character yea we say in the Catholic Church we say that the wife should be submissive meaning that she puts herself under the mission of the husband and the mission of the husband is to guard and protect his wife and to be a priest to his wife and he's giving everything to the wife everything he has his time his money and everything and so his mission is all about her so for her to put herself under that mission he's very beneficial to her and of course it satisfies the husband too because all his efforts are appreciated so this is the way to have order and harmony in the home and sadly in the West this model of the Christian family is being attacked every moment of every day in the media TV in the movies and books and film Satan is on the attack against the family with abortion with divorce with adultery with pornography with so many things it's it's a sad situation a lot of my friends are very liberal they're not married they don't have any children but you know what I have experienced the greatest blessing of my life just keeping the order in my home the way God wanted it and I wouldn't change it and change it for a thing for sure now you obviously have a bit of a prejudice against the Catholic Church and all things Catholic so I think this would be a good time for you if you want to ask me some questions about what I believe you can think of it sort of like a little mini Inquisition you can test my faith and find out if I believe this essential teaching of Christ or that essential teaching of Christ and just bounce a few questions off me if you would yeah you know in my own experience I had to be baptized when I was a little girl a baby actually and then we did something called first communion and then something else before we graduated high school confirmation the confirmation yes confirmation why are they there in a Catholics life are they in the Word of God yes where does that come from who gets to put it on you Jesus Christ the answer to every question is Jesus Christ so who gave us the seven sacraments Jesus Christ who acts in the sacraments Jesus Christ when this sacrament is being conferred onto one of the faithful it's Jesus Christ who's conferring the sacrament the priest is just an instrument of Jesus Christ and the sacrament is conferring the grace of Jesus Christ so everything is about Jesus Christ now why did God choose to use sacraments to confer god only knows I mean we just need to submit to reality and the reality is that it's right there in Scripture and for us you have to remember that the sacred deposit of faith includes not only Holy Scripture but also a Holy Tradition so there are those two aspects and as st. John said if everything were written down the whole world could not contain the books so obviously there's a lot more tradition than what's written down and it was tradition that gave us this holy scriptures we would not have Holy Scriptures we're not for tradition it was an oral tradition before it was written down so there many reasons why tradition actually is more important than the written word of God but the two of them work together to form what we call the deposit of faith the sacred deposit of faith Holy Scripture and holy tradition okay what about you know how the Bible says do not pray to graven images and things like that how do you get around that because I know in my experience I don't know how many hours I spent kneeling down in front of a statue acting like I was praying you know so how do you get around that you tell me the image of the typical image that's used by Catholic apologists is the soldier that's in the front lines of a war and of course he has a picture of his beloved wife and family members and occasionally when he has a moment to reflect he'll pull out his photograph tattered and torn as it is and he'll look at it with love and he might kiss the photo and he might even speak to his beloved across the thousands of miles that separates him from his beloved he knows that this photograph is nothing but a piece of paper it's a worthless piece of paper it's worth maybe two cents but it's worth so much more to him in that foxhole as the bombs are exploding around him and he's losing his comrades-in-arms and it's a very dramatic scene and he's very very happy I can assure he is very happy to have this reminder which is of course a cheap imitation of the reality but that reality is what his heart is reaching out to so this is the difference between adultery and true love true love knows that this is just a worthless piece of paper and it's a same thing with a sculpture everyone knows that this sculpture of this Saint is nothing it's just a bit of stone it's not being worshipped the real mystery to me is how anyone can make an idol out of clay or out of stone or out of wood and think that it somehow is of God I mean I read the Old Testament and I know that people created idols and worship these idols I don't understand how they can do that yeah it's still most definitely happening there's also I don't I don't know in an American culture but the different statues for Mary have different names so Mary from such and such place Mary from such and such place and it's kind of like a bunch of different Mary's you know and it's like well how many Mary's is there I can't keep up so so that's a you know if you're a child again it's a little confusing because you know that Mary was a virgin but then now there's a bunch of Mary's they're dressed different and it's a little you know nerve-wracking okay what about what about stuff like the rosary and those sort of things I went to Italy for one of my wedding anniversaries and when my grandma found out that I was going to Italy she's like you have got to bring a rosary from the Vatican so I actually made this one hour line to buy my grandma a rosary from the Vatican and this whole time I'm thinking what is she gonna do with this what what is this about count the beads and say however many prayers where is that in the Bible what's the purpose in that how does that rosary bring you closer to Jesus or tells you anything about Jesus can you explain yeah yeah it's not about the prayers it's about the meditation on the mysteries of the life of Jesus and Mary and Joseph and all the Apostles and all those who are involved in that drama of salvation history it's a reality that in the Middle East a couple thousand years ago this drama unfolded it's a reality so we can take ourselves there using our imagination through the quiet time of praying the rosary we can take ourselves back into these 20 mysteries of the life of our Lord and Our Lady and it's very powerful it's very salutary and Satan hates it so we persist in this I pray the rosary every day I don't claim to be good at it but I do place myself in the scene with Jesus and in many scenes of course his mother is there and you know we start with the Annunciation and we work our way all the way up to the passion and death and resurrection and ascension of Jesus and the Assumption of Mary and the coronation of Mary in heaven the whole point of the Rosary is to enter into that imagery to place yourself there and to share in the joy to give glory to God and to recognize humbly that we have caused great pain emotional pain physical pain spiritual pain every kind of pain to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ he suffered for my sins it's very very powerful if you haven't tried it I do recommend it it takes a little bit of practice but you can really get into the scenes so the rosary it's basically like a guidance for you and the way you're explaining it to me it sounds very very beautiful you associate it with joy but then when I look back at my bringing it was the culmination of your punishment you know if you did something wrong then the the thing for you to do was to go to the chapel kneel in front of the statue on the stone-cold floor and start on your rosary and I look back at those things and they are not a source of joy and they just seem so detached from any kind of connection with the Lord but then when I hear you say what you're saying about it it just I don't know I just kind of it's nice to hear you say that that brings that for you you know that is the point that is the objective now is it being used properly by everyone probably not and based on what you've told me about your South American Colombian culture it may be just a superstitious empty ritual but we're all prone to that even you in your passionate Christian life even you are prone to idol worship adultery and every form of sin I mean you you are not immune from any of these dangers and the traps that Satan sets for all of us and this is a humbling thing to bear in mind when you're looking at your neighbors religion you should look first and foremost at yourself because it's I'm not I'm not saying this to chastise you I'm just reminding you how subtle and sneaky Satan is and he can blind us to our own superstitions our own man-made traditions and these sorts of things so we need to just bear that in mind it's a very very dangerous journey that we're on here and this is we have a limited time to please the Lord and to align ourselves with his will and once we're dead were fixed it's it's gonna be heaven or hell I wanted to ask you about purgatory do you happen to believe in purgatory or not what do you mean by purgatory like I say my place between heaven and hell yeah it's a purification because here below like I was saying we're all subject to evil and temptation and sin but once we're dead if we're not in a state of mortal sin then we can go before God but nothing impure can stand before God therefore if we still have attachment to sin even though we're in a state of grace if we're still attached to saying that we need to be purified so that we can stand before God so the majority of people who die need to go through a purification process it's painful but it's joyful because we're going to eventually get to stand before God do you have a maybe like a scripture or where in the Bible say that I don't think I've ever read that okay I I personally don't believe in that like a transition place I believe you're either going to you know be with your Creator or you're going the other way I know in the Bible you know I have read places you know where somebody went to heaven and somebody went to hell and please go tell my family members where I'm at he was like if they didn't listen to Moses and the prophets you know what makes you think they're gonna listen to me so there is clearly a place for good things no place for bad things so well the story of the rich man and Lazarus is actually more akin to purgatory because when you're in Hell you don't have hope you don't have charity don't have love for your neighbor or for your family when you're in health so we have good reason to believe that that story is actually a picture of purgatory not a picture of Hell because when you're in hell you're not worried about your loved ones making it to heaven right so I just want to give you a few references here that you can look up at your leisure and this is obviously going to be a published interview so you can go back and listen to the references and look them up at your leisure basically we have Matthew 5:48 that says to be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect so if you're not perfect you can't go to heaven easy that purgatory to purify then you have Hebrews 12:14 strive for that holiness without which one cannot see God so it's the same idea then we have James 3:2 we all fall short in many respects so we need to be purified revelation 21:27 nothing unclean shall enter heaven we have 1 John 5:16 to 17 but where the degrees of sin are distinguished and then we have James 1:14 to 15 and it talks about when sin reaches maturity and gives birth to death and then we have 2 Samuel 12 13 to 14 where David though forgiven is still punished for his sin and this is the whole notion that we need to get rid of all that punishment that is due to sin in purgatory and then you have Matthew 5:26 where it says you will not be released until the last penny is paid Jesus says that and then in Matthew 12 32 he says that there is a sin against the Holy Spirit Unforgiven in this age or in the next so there's that idea that something can be forgiven and there's some work to be done in the next world and this is again is straight from the lips of Jesus then you have Matthew 12:36 where Jesus says we're gonna have to account for every idle word on judgement day and then we have second Maccabees this is as part of the deuterocanonical books second Maccabees 12 44 to 46 where they atone for the dead to free them from sin there's a very clear teaching among the Jews in the intertestamental times where they do pray for the dead and then you have 1st Corinthians 3:15 where those are saved through fire although they suffer a loss you can read about that in 1st Corinthians 3:15 and then 1st Peter 3:18 to 20 and 4:6 where Jesus preached to the spirits in prison and then you have 2nd timothy 1 16 to 18 where Paul prays for his dead friend and then you have finally one Corinthians 15:29 2:30 where Paul mentions people baptizing for the dead so that gives you a lot to think about and to study from here and if you come back a second time maybe we can talk about what you learned that's interesting now let's just say that somebody dies right now and they go into what you're say purgatory how did they get out of there how long are they there for as soon as they're purified they can stand before God they're on their way how are they purified well they're purified by the merits of Jesus Christ and the merits of the Saints so this is something that the Catholic Church understands that most non Catholics don't understand is that Jesus Christ has established an economy of salvation whereby we can pray for each other and those prayers actually are meritorious and those prayers actually are a source of grace God didn't have to do that he didn't need to let us participate in the riches of his Grace's but he allows us to pray this is a wonderful part of having been made in the image and likeness of God is that we have reason and we have free will and with that reason and that free will were able to wish others well and to wish others well is nothing other than to commend them to god this is true religion is to commend others to God because this is our highest good God is the fount of everything that is good so we're able to pray we're able to pray for each other I'm gonna pray for you I'm gonna ask you to pray for me I hope you will and this is bringing grace on to each of us and on to our families and we can participate in this mystery that is God's love and his power and it's really a wonderful part of being Catholic mm-hmm interesting so you know everybody always uses Hitler as their you know as their example so do you think as bad as that the man was do you think maybe somebody prayed him out of Heil no you cannot pray someone out of hell we're not allowed to pray for those who are damned in hell because no prayer can help them they're beyond hope we never pray for Satan or for the demons or for anyone that's in hell the problem is that we don't know which humans are in hell I think the Church teaches that Judas who betrayed our Lord is in Hell probably Cain who killed his brother Abel probably he's in hell but the church does not say for sure the church does not have a list of people that are definitely in Hell the church has a list of people that are definitely in heaven so you have to pray in a conditional way for all of those that are dead and you're not certain if they're in heaven or not you're allowed to pray for them but in a conditional way because only God knows the heart yeah that that leaves a big gray area so just pray for everybody yeah good idea all day every day I'm praying for every human being that ever lived past present and future that they can be converted have a true and lasting conversion and if they end up in purgatory that they have a quick release from purgatory and god only knows in each individual case who is where and why but it's a mystery that will be revealed at the final judgment the general judgment we're going to see everyone's story unfold and it's going to be wonderful for those of us who make it to heaven but for those who are on their way to hell of course it's going to be just another part of that never-ending torture and punishment and I pity the fool that says no to God I say yes to God not because I want to avoid punishment and I want the pleasures of heaven but because I love God God is all good and deserving of all my love it's a natural childlike love of God exactly that is so very true what you said yes so at the end of my interviews I do ask my guests to leave a final thought just a nice Pleasant message of hope for the listener so just to wrap up what do you think you might be able to say to anyone that might be out there listening now I just asked that you give God a chance dad you let him show you who he is dad you will give him a chance to prove himself creator of you and everything that you know and that is around you I will ask that you open up your mind that you open up your heart and that that you will let the Lord speak to you in ways said you have never been spoken before don't close yourself up God is not dead he is alive and everything around him is alive and you are within that realm so don't give up hope God heals I know so because he's done it with me he has changed my life he's continually changing my life and I wouldn't love for anything different than you having that all you got to do is all you got to do all you got to do is all you got to do

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