Catholic vs. Catholic - 2018-06-14 - Stephen Heiner Part 2

Author Recorded Thursday June 14th, 2018

There are 45 episodes in the Versus:Catholic series.

Recorded September 13th, 2017

Catholic vs. Catholic - 2017-09-13 - Thomas

I was pleasantly surprised when Stephen Heiner agreed to come back and record part 2. I am more novus ordo than ever, having read the documents of Vatican II, but he still doesn't understand my perspective. I enjoyed our lively chat nonetheless, and hope to have him back again next year. • Support the CVS Podcast: • Be a guest on a livestream:

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These YouTube transcripts are generated automatically and are therefore unformatted and replete with errors.
Stephen Heiner part two so thanks so much for taking the time I know you're really busy and let's jump right into it what's on your mind what do you want to talk about well David you're the one who started this exchange I think you've been investigating and to your credit you have gone and done some reading which most people are not willing to do what I would leave with is asking you it based on what you've read do you see a continuity of the Catholic Church or rupture because there's continuity the words that you've used another podcast make a lot of sense were insane Ferris vehicle all of these things that's the only position to take that's the position taken by the Norbertine so I've heard this song and dance before from priests not just from a layman like your saw I mean I'm certainly not a bright guy but I do love I do know how to love I fell in love with the church because I fell in love with the Saints I didn't believe in the Trinity or in the divinity of Jesus Christ I just fell in love with the Saints and I fell in love with Mary and then started approaching Jesus Christ and so I'm not your typical Novus Ordo Catholic I can't let go of the church because I'm in love with the church first and foremost and it's only the church introducing me to Jesus Christ ever so slowly and ever so gently but my love of the Saints stems from the acknowledgment that I am not God that God the Father is God and that monotheism is true and I have to pick a monotheistic religion and find out if any of them are infallible and in defect Abul and if any of them have authority and if so join that one and if not go back to natural religion and natural religion is just the understanding which we can arrive at through the natural light of reason that God exists and that I am NOT God ultimately the Novus Ordo is a bad imitation of a natural religion essentially it's a be a nice guy religion backed up by the man you consider to be the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth who tells people that they're atheist fathers went to heaven that tells people that God made you homosexual and he's happy and I'm happy with it this is the man who is the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth but I'm more interested in Vatican 2 and that's why I asked you to go back and as I said I was very impressed that you did go back and when you read those documents did you feel like they were Catholic documents did they read like any other Catholic documents you'd ever read in your life well they certainly had a different sort of atmosphere it didn't seem to have that strident triumphalism that I like so much I am by nature rigid sort of dogmatist you know you're using their words when you say strident triumphalism what you mean to say is the Vatican two documents don't speak with Catholic clarity that you're used to correct well I wouldn't I wouldn't say that I mean I'm not gonna let you lead me that easily okay well I mean are you gonna say they're not the strident triumphalist tone that I normally have come to love for the Catholic Church yeah there's a certain component to Christianity which makes you sit up straight and take notice and there's sort of a hair-raising call to holiness which is a little bit more punchy and I didn't get a lot of that from the documents of Vatican 2 and I know you're gonna mock and ridicule Vatican 2 based on what I'm saying you know the idea that it's watered down or that it's weak or this that the other thing I don't buy that I think that what it is it's we're living in a different time and the church has a different atmosphere about it because of modernism because of atheism because we're living in a world where the Catholic Church is not dominant like it used to be this is my perspective and I'm not a historian I could be wrong but I think that the church adapts to the time and I think it's very important that I say this the continuity is very clear there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church that is mentioned in the documents of Vatican 2 so nothing has changed and there's a great stress on continuity and in the post conciliar documents and in the writings of the Pope's that came afterwards there there's always a stress on the continuity and there's always a rebuttal of the claim by traditionalists that there's been rupture there's a few things that I need to address one is the typical modernist idea that well times have changed so the church is going to change how she approaches things this has never ever ever ever been taught in fact that is a condemned proposition in the syllabus in boat in both syllabuses so this idea that well I want you to keep in mind your year in Canada where you know priests haven't been murdered since the time of the North American martyrs but I live in a country in which priests have been murdered in the last hundred years so the idea that now it's really bad it's really fine right now and we had a Eucharistic procession on Corpus Christi in the streets guarded by the police last week the idea that things are bad for the church right now do you know that there was a time when nuns were led up to the guillotine and murdered and that was 200 years ago so the idea that well it's really bad now so we have to change our language but the church didn't modify her language in 1789 she didn't modify her languages in 1792 is the seventh condemned the civil Constitution on the clergy which put most of France outside of the sacraments so things are not bad now nobody cares about religion David nobody cares back then people died for their religion they died in the streets so this idea well oh well you know now that it's the sixties we need to change the Church's doctrine when she didn't change it when the Cristeros were dying she didn't change it when nuns were dying and priests were getting murdered in Spain I never said that doctrine changed in Vatican - no what you're saying is that the language changed because you know now there's more atheism it's like we've always had socialism we've always had atheism we always had at times the church doesn't change her approach to match the times that's not how the church works there's nothing like Vatican 2 in any previous time of the church that is the evidence of rupture you cannot find any documents prior to Vatican 2 that are written in the modernistic language and it's dripping with modernism find me a document in which the Holy Father said the organ is to be given pride of place however whatever you'd like to do in Kenya that's up to you that is not a Catholic way of speaking let your yes be yes and your no be no the evidence is the documents themselves the documents themselves don't look or sound like anything that has ever been issued by the church prior to 1962 if you can find it then that's the continuity otherwise you're looking at rupture in the document just the phrasing and then we can get to the other false claims that you've made why the change from Pius the 12th formulation of s the Church of Christ is the Catholic Church est s in Latin is in English - the change sub C steeped which has a different meaning in Latin and in English the different meaning in Latin is the same different meaning in English which means resides in part but may be in part elsewhere that's not what the Church teaches the church the church taught s so si si is a novelty but what I'm saying is that reading the commentaries on Vatican 2 in the post conciliar documents those who are faithful to the Magisterium have arguments to say that subsisting is not weaker it's stronger it was a system now this is insane why would anything be stronger than the word is David I want I want you to say this because we're not gonna worry about Latin I'm just gonna focus on the English language what is stronger than the word is subsists in apparently in this context according according according to who I've talked you to you David you as a regular English speaker what is stronger than the word is Jesus Christ is God can you make that stronger I can no I can't do much you you can't and some CC doesn't make it stronger if I said Jesus Christ subsists in God would another English speaker say wow that's stronger I'm so much more convinced now there's nothing stronger than is David and whatever semantic wordplay and commentaries that you've read to brainwash you to think that there's a stronger word is in Latin or in English is insane Satan is very subtle and if we look at all the heresy the history of the heresies particularly those that are condemned by ecumenical councils we see people that are convinced that they were right but history tells us that they were wrong that's my perspective on the set of accantus it's just another schism it's just another set of heresy no David the difference is you can't point at any teaching that I believe that isn't Catholic yeah you don't believe that the Pope is the Pope you admit that you don't submit to the Living Magisterium today no I don't submit to the man that you consider to be the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth it doesn't mean that I don't submit to the Pope you're conflating the two and I know our listeners pick up on that because the Pope is the Pope is the weakest argument in the history of mankind of course the Pope is the Pope the question is is he the Pope and over the centuries for anyone who's read the tiniest bit of Catholic Church history there have been anti-popes that have rained and a people submitted themselves to they didn't know that he was an anti Pope so I could say well the Pope is the Pope except for those guys and as I pointed out to you I think at our last conversation either before after the show during the Great Western schism there were multiple candidates that you could have submitted yourself to yeah and different Saints submitted to different Pope's yeah and what happens to those Catholics in that time period are you gonna go around and say well the focus of Pope st. Vincent Ferrer I mean that's that's a silly argument the idea that I don't believe in the Catholic papacy is incorrect what you have a problem with is I don't submit to the man you consider to be the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth Catholics are defined by their submission for example in Bishop Sanborn has pointed this out when there is a living Pope all Catholics are defined by their submission to him when a pope has died all Catholics are defined by being said of a contests so I believe in the hath extrusion is teaching on the papacy I just don't accept that the candidates not just this one but the the previous ones are valid claimants and history is on my side there had been plenty of anti Pope's in the past the church's history you're asking our listeners to believe that there are no more anti-popes that they can't exist no no I interviewed Pope Michael remember what what what teachings of the church do I deny that make me not Catholic that's the question I have well the living Magisterium today obliges you to submit to it and that living Magisterium includes the current Pope and the bishops in union with him so you don't do that so you're removing yourself from the church that's my perspective what you're saying is if you agreed that this man was not the Pope that would then allow me to be Catholic again no no no no no if this man is not the Pope then Jesus Christ is a liar lunatic or a mere legend no that's this year perception because again I don't think you've looked at enough cases in church history we have had interregnum as before do you know that the longest we've gone without a pope three years right so if we can go three years why can't we go four years and we can go four years why can't we go five we can but look at the behavior of the government of the church during those extended interregnum now you mentioned bishop Sanborn I listened to a couple of talks that he gave in a couple of debates and he said on multiple occasions not just once on multiple occasions and I quote I have no authority so do you have any authority Stephen hunter do you have any authority what no I do I submit to the church so I have a passive infallibility I do have authority every Catholic has authority so when you look back at the heresies that were surrounding the 21 ecumenical councils of the church was there ever a time where the side that was opposing the church took the name the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church took some other name like today if you wanted to say you're the Catholic Church and I'm Novus Ordo Vatican - I'm not the Catholic Church David I am NOT all I am is I'm a believer in Catholic teachings I'm a Catholic I I do not represent the Catholic Church in that sense other than as a believer yeah but if you were to speak with any of the schism attics or heretics throughout the ages they too would have said what you say no they wouldn't universally have said that and that's a canard that's often thrown out there but over time it simply develops and you're always able to point to something that a heretic has said the deviates from previous church teaching however I asked you at the beginning and you still haven't been able to tell me what I believe as a Catholic that deviates from previous church teaching where as you believe all kinds of stuff that deviates including that the Church of Christ subsist in the Catholic Church this is a deviancy from church teaching has never been taught before not according to my church though it's not rupture its continuity it's never been taught and the previous formulation by a pope is esthe my rebuttal of a set of a kant ISM is simply I don't believe you cuz you're talking to me without authority I don't believe you when you tell me that I've swallowed contradiction or any compromising doctrine I don't need Authority all I can do is ask you questions that you don't have answers for if I admitted of any doctrinal change without you hold to this obscene notion yeah but I'm saying that I've been reassured by the readings that there's no rupture you haven't explained to me the church has changed on religious liberty on divorce and remarriage most recently receiving Communion and soon enough probably homosexuality and again Who am I to judge God made you that way atheists go to heaven this is the man you consider to be the Vicar of Jesus Christ but if he's the Pope and he doesn't believe in the religion that you do what does that say about the religion that you think that you're in you think you're in the Catholic Church but I'm asking you about specific beliefs that were denied at Vatican 2 and you're defending them I don't think they were denied that's the point I read them with you in mind because you're the one that prompted me to read the documents of vatican ii you said read at least one I read all 16 and the footnotes and the commentaries and some post conciliar documents now I'm not willing to compromise on doctrine and there's nothing that has changed with vatican ii doctrinally i'm very very confident of that having read the documents if we can focus on one issue which is religious liberty okay there is absolutely nothing controversial about that short document on religious liberty nothing controversial how you can say there's nothing controversial when people against smarter than you or me have written whole books on the subject if there was nothing controversial why would it be controversial listen I'm not saying it's not Harry what I'm saying is it's not a deal-breaker if you tell me that gay marriage is it going to be endorsed by my Novus Ordo Church then I'll just leave all abandoned Jesus Christ if that happens but I don't believe that that's gonna happen I don't I don't understand again you tie this identification which I would simply as a misidentification you're using as an excuse to just peace out because I need Authority if there's no infallible Authority you simply made a mistake in identification it doesn't invalidate the Church's teachings it just means that your perception was wrong that's all I used to be a quote/unquote conservative no massarde I'm like one day when they allow this I'm out of here and they keep saying that all the time they're reading Ghouta Axl taught to air all that garbage that comes out from bergoglio's mouth and they say oh well you know if he says that gay couples can adopt children then I'm out of here and then gay couples gonna go he didn't say anything about the the referendum in Ireland about up where I mean this is the the man who is the vicar of Jesus Christ on earth can't be bothered to stand up for children being slaughtered in Ireland and you could consider him to be the Vicar Jesus Christ on earth and again I don't point to the personal failings but this is the obvious stuff I can point to and the reason why I said of a contestant has gotten more attention is because he's made it more obvious Time magazine Newsweek no great Catholic bastions are asking questions like is the Pope Catholic I've seen numerous headlines the people who aren't even Catholic are asking this question because he seems to be going against basic Catholic teachings that everybody knows not everybody knows necessarily about the hypostatic Union but everybody knows that the Catholic Church opposes homosexuality in practice opposes the murder of children if you're the head of the Catholic Church you should at least be Catholic you should at least accept the Church's teachings yeah I think he's kind of like a not only Catholic but more Catholic than you and I you think that bergoglio is more Catholic than either you or myself combined this is insane because I give him the benefit of the doubt when he reportedly says the thing you don't get the benefit of the doubt because you wear a white cassock David no no no no it's not because of that it's not a blind faith in the Pope it's not it's because I understand that he considers homosexuality objectively disordered and he said that he said as much so when he on the other hand says I love you and accept you as you are and so does God that not contrary to the teacher that's not what the church teaches the church doesn't teach you that God loves you as a homosexual in that sense in a practicing homosexual he's endorsing his way of life no he's not that's what he said in the text no but listen he said that it's objectively disordered so how do you reconcile those two facts she's talking to a homosexual and the homosexual came away from saying Pope Francis approves of my lifestyle he went and told all the newspapers that and Pope Francis did not deny this so if what you said is true he would come out and say no no no no I said that homosexual is deductively disordered I didn't tell him to live his life this guy drew the conclusion which any normal regular human being would if the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth came up to you and said God loves you the way that you are and so do I live your life means practice homosexuality that's what that means in English David and so if it were true because that's what all the newspapers around the world said the Pope would be doing an injustice not to correct that not only for the man of this one single person but in all the doubt for the minds of the faithful who suddenly said oh the Pope thinks oh okay well I need to change my mind to conform to what the Pope thinks you didn't clarify it which meant that the man took the message which bergoglio intended which is live your life as a practicing homosexual and it's not on the poor little laymen to go and like oh I got to read through every Olive bergoglio stuff so I can contextualize his comments to me David that's not how real life works no but it's a settled issue there was an altar boy with his hands folded in a traditional way with both prayer hands he went and he pulled to the arms apart and he he said are your hands glued together can you imagine damage done to the soul of a young child when the what would you consider to be the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth comes and pulls your hands apart because you're doing something we he considers offensive which is he's engaging in a traditional prayer posture which is offensive to bergoglio alright don't believe your goal you know hates Christianity he hates the Catholic Church I don't believe you and he's doing everything he can to undermine it is any good anti Pope would do no that sounds ridiculous what you just said found ridiculous everyone who's listening to this podcast will have seen bergoglio's words and and the idea they've already been laughing since you said that he was more Catholic than either of us and I'm not holding myself up standard Catholicism i I know objectively by documents that bergoglio denies teachings of the Catholic Church he's what rallies what do you mean such as are you nuts he doesn't believe in the resurrection he talks about the difference of the historicity and then the idea of faith you may not know this but I host a show called Francis watch and part of what I have to do every quarter is compile all of his things so you're speaking to the one guy who every quarter has to compile everything that bergoglio's been speaking insane and then speak to Catholic clergy and say what does the church teach what does for goleo T so I have no lack of evidence as to what bergoglio says I don't like keeping up with it but it's part of informing Novus Ordo people who are starting to ask questions then you can say here's what bergoglio says here's what the Catholic Church teaches there's a difference judge for yourself and that's what's going on here I care about the personal heresies of pergolas all they do is prick the mind to go back to the Vatican to where the Church's teaching was subverted and changed I've seen anti-catholic stuff online a lot of really trashy anti-catholic stuff online and what you're saying reminds me of that you're Francis watch reminds me of that I'll have to go and look at your friends and swatch because I'm not familiar with what somebody says asking what the Catholic Church teaching is and then leaving readers to judge sounds like anti-catholic propaganda Francis watch what it sounds like is it just another wacky weird conspiracy theory where you cut and paste everything that will demonize it's not that's the whole point is that the whole point is you've never listened to an episode and I sit I've described something to you it sounds nothing like that I said that we read what bergoglio says we have photos and videos the full kind of sex we always have links and people can go and read it for themselves go to the websites go to the videos go to the Vatican website where the text is printed here's what he said here's what the Catholic Church teaches I'm not interested in grassy knoll stuff David that's not my thing like and again I only do Fran so much because people ask for it they're really I don't know why I'm much more interested in catechism sacred scripture canon law the teachings of the doctors the church councils nerdy Catholic stuff that's my thing but other people are really interested in polemic and the good that I can see is that each time we have an opportunity to revisit Catholic doctrine so if someone says that it's an article of faith not of historicity to believe in the resurrection of Christ well we can go and say well what does the church say about that we know what bergoglio said because here's the document that bergoglio said here's the sermon at santa marta here's the Vatican website where republish to sermon here's what he said and here's what the Catholic Church teaches do you see a difference and that's the issue is Frances Catholic no he's not there's people who are not even Catholics to know that then you have the list you have the crazy universe in which there are these very faithful conservative Novus Ordo homosexuals who have to go on the media and say the man they consider the Pope is wrong and then you have the secular media mocking saying yeah the homosexuals say that the Pope is wrong and they're laughing about it because on its face it looks absurd you have conservative Novus Ordo homosexuals who are doing their best to live a chaste homosexual life they get hurt by what the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth says they have to come out because unlike you they understood it as bergoglio wanted it to be understood which is he approved of his lifestyle not like oh go read this one document that I said one time and contextualize it yes that's how you do theology but we're talking about the real world here and that's what I've talked about with s and sub CC you haven't once made the point all you've said is I've been reassured dot dot but you haven't explained how sub CC is superior I can't explain even the simplest fact of my faith to you but that doesn't detract from my faith like I said in the beginning it's a love story I'm in love with the church I'm in love with the Saints and I frankly I'm in love with Pope Francis because I see that he hasn't ruptured from the tradition of the church his approach is fast and loose I'll give you that and it's open to misinterpretation and people are running with the misinterpretation so I do sympathize with your position why doesn't he clarify with divorce and remarry because this is what he wants you don't seem to know a whole lot about bergoglio but you say that you're in love with him but I can give you a lot more knowledge on bergoglio that would I would say really test that love because he doesn't believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church he denies them in a number of ways and you refer to them as reckless or being fast and loose but if you said that to me David if you said what bergoglio said would I then say David just fast and loose but he's really a Catholic at heart if you're not Catholic you can't be elected the head of the Catholic Church much less be the head as Saint Robert Bellarmine said he who is not in the body cannot be the head we have evidence before while he was in Argentina and now we've had years of evidence after the man is not Catholic if the Pope has to be a faithful Catholic not a material heretic certainly not a formal heretic and if the current Pope what I consider to be the current Pope is a heretic then I go back to my natural religion and you're gonna throw a hissy fit again I'm not it's not a hissy fit David I just don't want you I think you have generally good will but I just think that that's weak when I find you're generally resilient in other ways where is your church because I don't see it the same place that it was for the Japanese Catholics when they had no priest for 200 years David what would you have asked them and what would they have answered you and they were Saints a lot of them became Saints that without priests for 200 years that means people live died their grandmas live died their great Grandpa's lived and died it's a really easy gotcha question just like the Pope is the Pope is a really easy gotcha statement but it doesn't address the issue the issue is what is Catholicism Catholicism is holding to the faith of our fathers what has been taught st. Paul said even if I or an angel were to teach you something different as long as you're holding on to that that's what matters right and that's what's going on at this point is that you haven't been able to name anything other than I don't adhere to someone you consider to be a claimant except I provided you the fact that in church history people have adhered to false claimants that in itself is not disqualifier so you said well you don't obey the the Magisterium say no i don't recognize that claim in everything seems to rise and fall for you on recognition but you have disagreed with me that people can miss identify the correct claimant and only the people who have the miraculous benefit of hindsight because they lived in the future and they can look back in church history and say oh well it's clear well it's clear for us now but it wasn't clear for the people then so for you to say oh it's obviously clear to me that France is not an anti Pope especially in the face of all the evidence that the man's not Catholic and again you don't want to get into the personal heresies of this or that Pope but back to Vatican - but you've even denied the Vatican - changes Church teaching and I've said to you that there was teaching in the Catholic Church prior and uses the word esthe Vatican 2 uses a different formulation saying that something subsists and something is is not the same thing in English in Latin in French in a number of languages there were not the words of Christ and they have never been used in any right of the church if you go to the Coptic right the Maronite right no one has ever used a term for all until the 1970s so again changing the words of Christ and changing the roots of consecration that invalidates the sacrament you can't have a valid sacrament using the wrong words you have to use the words so anyone who uses a form that doesn't say for many is violating church teaching you belong to a religion in which that form was used in multiple languages for many decades until it was recently changed but it doesn't matter since they don't have valid Croesus anyway they can't have a valid mass but you ignore things like asked and subsist eat you ignore things like the change in religious liberty you ignore things like for many and I don't ignore them I was reassured by everything I read do you understand I don't understand how for many and for all are the same thing I don't understand how s and subsisted are the same thing do you need to understand that to submit to the living register do you need to understand it no if you're a peasant somewhere but David no one who's a peasant working in the fields is listening to this podcast no I mean you Steven Heiner do you need to understand everything before you'll submit that's what I'm asking you someone who's illiterate isn't going to be held to the same standards that I am regarding Catholic theology but I've read this stuff I can't unsee it I can't unsee Eston sub C Steve I can't unsee for many and for all what's striking to me is despite the fact that I keep bringing it up you say I've been reassured by my reading but you've taken no pains to educate our listeners what has reassured you I know the difference between someone saying there's continuity and someone saying oh scrap what happened before Vatican 2 we're gonna do something new and that's never ever ever ever ever been taught by anyone by the side of a countess that I talk to all the set of accantus say Oh religious and differences and was introduced by Vatican two but when Vatican 2 talks about religious and different ISM it's to forewarn us against it and to forbid it if that was true history why did the Vatican Secretary of State in there Paul the sixth and so on go around and D Catholicism adding into using dignity Sumana why did they require Ireland the Philippines all these people to take out the establishment of the church within their constitutions citing that I have no idea maybe because they hate Jesus Christ it's the same argument that you'd have David which is well bergoglio said in this one context like well that's great but here's real life and real life is what happened after even if we make the arguments for it and I think the documents make plenty they're quite articulate in their own way we can look at the effects and we can look at what they were citing all along they've always been citing the council the council the council do you know how many times Trent is footnoted in documents at Vatican two it's very heavily cited along with Vatican 1 well of course of course you know who was there to make sure was in there bishop de castro mayor arts official if they have cardinal Ottaviani the Conservatives put what they wanted in there but the whole point is those documents the Vatican do documents can be read from right or left but that's not how Catholic documents are written you use the phrase and I'll laugh along with you of a rigorous triumphalism strike I consider myself a triumphalist to this day by the way yeah yeah that's fine but the problem is it's still normative and if you don't use triumphalist wording there's something different and that should at least set off your catholic spidey senses insane hmm something's wrong here this document is not like any other document of church history so am i going to ignore and forget that our lord talked about wolves in sheep's clothing I'm not I'm not gonna forget what our Lord said about that I'm not going to forget that we will be deceived that there will be people who will try to deceive us I won't look facts in the face and say for many is the same thing as for all but that's what st. Thomas Aquinas says he doesn't say for many is the same thing he doesn't roll no no he doesn't yeah he does he says and I quote for many means for all where are you quoting from you want to find the reference yes I do what would it take for you to become a Novus Ordo again and I emphasize again I can't baby a nobis order because Novus Ordo is not Catholicism so there's nothing that will compel me to leave Catholicism I believe that I'm Catholic okay but what would it take to convince you that the Novus Ordo church is the true Catholic Church what would it take our lady appearing in front of everybody in the whole world and saying this is the the Catholic Church and even then I mean I'd have to believe that somehow I'm possibly not Catholic but how can I be possibly not Catholic when I accept everything that the church teaches I can't possibly be not kind of like have you ever been wrong have you ever misjudged anybody have you ever misjudged anyone's intentions sure okay so you may have misjudged the intentions of the last Pope's no no I no no no that's not no the intentions of so-and-so and not relevant that's not what the church teaches it doesn't say that in any catechism no but when we talked about Pope Francis being on the record that homosexuality is objectively disordered and then going around and hugging and kissing homosexuals I look at the doctrine you look at the hugs and kisses no no I'm just pointing out to you again I don't might be in a set of consciousness and based on this or that action of Pope Francis or this or that action of pope john paul ii or all these people that you talk about is pope what's relevant is that they are taking their cue and they're following very consistently that's one credit to them in the footsteps of vatican ii which started a new religion which started a new rosary a new code of canon law new catechism new Mass new sacrament of orders new sacrament of Episcopal consecration new Saints all of these new things come around forming a new religion what does the future hold the near future but more importantly the midterm future and the long term future for what you consider to be the one true church of Jesus Christ can you please just paint me a really rosy picture and if there are dark highlights you want to add in go for it one of the things that has always interested me is people's immediate consequentialism of well but how'd you elect a new pope as if that's my job that's not my job as a Catholic my job as a Catholic is not to figure out how things can play out in the future and so in the short medium and long term future I will continue to practice my faith as long as it is allowed to me legally and if they will kill me for it I will happily go to my death will the church grow I don't know that's that is not again this is not these aren't questions that you'd pose to Catholics we don't know we don't know these things do you have any hope for the church militant I have hope because I'm required to have hope we must have hope but that's a supernatural hope I have no natural hope I look with the eyes of faith not with the eyes of man if I look that looks like bread but it's actually our Lord so naturally speaking it doesn't look like that but I overcome my natural senses with my supernatural eyes so the same thing naturally speaking it seems that things are only getting worse but supernaturally every day I have to accept that our Lord is in charge and things will resolve in the way that he wills that's our job as Catholics is not to predict the future try to shape the future we're supposed to live as Catholics and that's all that he asks of us and that's all that I'm interested in doing I'm not interested in problem solving for how we elect a new pope we got ourselves into this mess our Lord will provide a way out but I can't accept a teaching that's not Catholic just because it's the most comfortable thing to do would be the most comfortable thing to do to roll into a parish and have a quote/unquote regular life but that's not the current situation it was in this situation for the Catholics in France just a couple hundred years ago they just wanted to go to their regular parishes instead their priests were massacred and their churches were closed and all they wanted to do was go to Mass I don't live in that time period where we're not getting massacred in the streets yet but if we will I hope that I will have the fortitude of my patron Stephen and Lawrence to to go to such a death happily excellent thank you so much I really appreciate you taking the time I like you and I'm praying for you and hope you pray for me and I'm sorry if I put my foot in my mouth with you sometimes we're backed like an ignorant idiot no I don't think I do the reason why I was willing to take a second interview with you was because I do think that you're honestly looking and obviously we disagree on some things but if I didn't feel that you were intellectually honest and really striving I wouldn't make the time but I made the time because I think you and I was so shocked that you read the documents and I was pleased obviously we still don't seem to agree but that's okay I think that you are earnestly seeking our Lord's will and I think that that will only lead to good things