foreign here with Aiden and Rebecca how are you guys doing good how are you great I'm excited to talk to you both and I hope you both had a Merry Christmas YouTube Buddy what did you do for Christmas I stayed home with the wife and we uh uh what did we do uh oh we went to see a friend Christmas Day and uh we talked to another friend who moved out of town to a small country town and she invited us for um New Year's Eve there's a New Year's Eve party happening in a very small Border Town that borders on the U.S so we're thinking we might do that it's in a bowling alley so it's like a bowling alley party so we can bowl and eat snacks and stuff like that so that's by my standards that's a pretty happening and exciting uh Christmas and New Year it's exciting for my standards as well yeah that's cool man yeah very nice how about you Rebecca are you doing anything for New Year's oh I I don't really have plans except that I'm gonna do a talk on The Big Bang on New Year's Day uh so I think that'll be fun what is that oh on my Channel The Big Bang is that what you call it the Big Bang Yeah I mean I don't believe the Big Bang so I'm kind of like talking with someone about you know reasons that they believe the big bang and presenting evidence against the Big Bang ah cool uh I thought it was bread of life you changed the name no she's talking about the Big Bang Theory I think you're still going under the same name she's she's saying she's gonna do a talk on on the subject I see okay okay okay so you have to are you so do you believe in um Evolution or creationism or no yeah I don't believe in evolution I'm like David I'm I'm one of those crazy young Earth creationists I I believe whatever makes most people irritated so I'll just whatever whatever everybody's emphatically against I'll just say yeah I believe that I don't think that's right join us Aiden yeah Universe creation is I know but I'm more of a provocateur so I don't think you'd want me for your cause because there wouldn't be any compassion or love it would just be me sitting there and like poking at people I'm not but I'm not smart enough to be effective at it so I guess maybe I would be okay for your side my little brother would be better Karen is kieran's a creationist right David I think so yeah I think so yeah he's brilliant so he would be able to to to tell you why everybody else is wrong and why you two are right so I uh I was listening to Kent hovind he's one of my guests and he's a young Earth creationist he's pretty controversial for many reasons but Kent hoven's made a joke back in I don't know this is probably decades ago now in one of his talks he said uh I've got three kids one of each and that was edgy back in the day because like he was implying that there could be three genders instead of just the boy and the girl but today I looked it up their 74 uh genders so if you if you want to have one of each you're going to need to polygamy too to have one of each or you live 300 years yeah you know there's that David come on oh okay yeah the Methuselah project are you aware of this uh Rebecca that they're doing a try and extend human life as part of the transhumanist agenda did you know that not surprised I think you might have mentioned this in one of our talks I interviewed uh years ago I interviewed my one and only Mormon guest and he's a trans and open transhumanist and the Mormon religion is sort of an atheistic religion where you've just got a big man in the sky and he's currently the best it's anotheism which is we worship the best of all the gods and we are in competition with that God to surpass him so it's a form of atheism I think and uh the so-called gods are just material beings like like us that have ascended so there's a there's an overlap with the New Age movement where we have this ascendance and it's a sort of a gnostic thing too where we want to have more and more subtle matter to it to the point where it becomes a spiritual being and a spiritual being is still material but it's a more subtle form of of uh matter so uh a lot in common with the Gnostic New Age movement the Mormons and well they worship a lot with uh Harry Christian is a lot too there's a lot of crossover between Mormonism and the the Krishna Consciousness movement and I never understood why and I suppose that's probably probably a piece of it because there seems to be like a polytheistic element to Mormonism yeah which is um why we don't you know in Catholicism except somebody who's been baptized Mormon as being legitimately baptized but um I feel like a lot of Protestants have the view of Catholicism like it's like it's a cousin like a close cousin of Mormonism and it couldn't be further further from it yeah but no I don't feel that way at all um but you know with Mormonism it's kind of interesting because you know I I know the beliefs are not Christian Orthodoxy um but some of the best Christians I know are Mormons and what I mean is your Reflections very very wonderful people and then some are very very creepy um so we went to mean personality wise or like in the way I mean just in well all you know I can give you an example we went to the mall to share the gospel a few weeks ago and of course I live in Utah so it's you know very warm and heavy and so we one of the people that we talked to was you know a a pretty high leader in the Mormon church and he was really I mean just his whole presence was very like um off-putting um and you know he was just you know just saying a lot of appalling things um that of course we don't believe and then you know and there was just you know something about him that was totally off then you know again I've also met other leaders in the Mormon Church our church did a collaboration with the Mormon church to help uh the community and I met the you know the the main leader of the the stake in our um town and he was such a wonderful guy his wife was wonderful um you just really sensed true Christian love from them I did and so you know there I feel like there's it's kind of a situation with the wheat and the tares you know Jesus told the parable about the wheat and the tares and there are some people I think there's there's enough uh Bible reading in Mormonism that if you read and you read the teachings of Christ and you hold on to that there's enough truth there um to re lead you in the right direction and then there's enough like terrible teachings in the church that if you hold on to those I mean in the Mormon church if you're holding on to those and you're trusting in those then it's really a lot to lead you in a very dark path so which is scary that's like uh because it's always like a you know when you have something that feels very very true but then there's like a percent of falsehood in it and then that like little drop is enough to corrupt and to ruin everything and to lead you lead you away and I feel like every time I've fallen for a new age trap that's kind of kind of what it is and also on it's also on the fault of the church too for um uh developing like cliches and um kind of like a false icon of what the church is and what what Christianity is and it makes it kind of look unappealing and you know when you sometimes when you think of Catholicism you think of like the old pictures and the Baltimore catechism with like the dude with the shaved face and like the suit likes you know hands folded hands clasped very boring very like um rote and static imagery and um the experience of God is much more Transcendent and beautiful and probably something closer to how um you know people Express themselves in Eastern religions you know there's something appealing about the colors and about the um the freedom that's expressed there and of course it's deception it's lies but I think that if Christianity kind of had some of those um some of those elements expressed people would be more drawn people would be more drawn to it but unfortunately um I think religious imagery has gotten in the way of a lot of that I could be wrong but um I mean it happens it happens in all in all major religions too if you if you do any deep dive into Hinduism you get the same um unappealing glossy images that just repeat over and over and over again and those two become boring and they become Static and stale and um uh look at my yoga old yoga teacher's house you know you'd have the Gita and all these pictures around and um they all started to look the same and they all started to look copy and paste and um after a while you just kind of grew disillusioned because they um you know were just there depicting a reality or representing a reality but they couldn't actually be the direct experience of it so so it sounds like you're saying you like the messiness of God's reality and sort of the chaos like even in that we read about in the certainly in the Old Testament but even in the New Testament there's a there's a messiness a confrontation with reality as it is and uh yeah things don't fit into nice neat categories where you've got your shiny brochure with the Norman Rockwell paintings illustrating what the church is all about so yeah you want authenticity and to confront the messy reality that's I'm 100 on board if that's what you're that's right yeah yeah well David so like the the last conversation YouTube had um you had your your book of of um Catholic doctrines look at that there you go Dogma and um and for me I see the word dogma and I see a book and I see like block lettering I'm like like boring and like and then and then you jump into the Dogma too and there's this like static there's this rigidity rigidity to it right but like it's like an opening you know there's this like you know very hard lines but then you fall through the lines you go through the lines you jump into whatever that is and then there's this vast space within within the Dogma so like the Dogma just points to a reality but the reality exists of itself and then you have the opportunity to experience it um by like learning whatever the boundaries are but then coming to a place of Unknowing and experiential knowing and then you're like oh you know and that's kind of what I always want from God because uh I'm selfish and I want to uh um I want the lights and the goodies you know I want all the cookies yeah um well if you think that you've understood a Dogma then you've completely missed the point of the dog because each Dogma is a mystery and each Dogma is an eternal truth of God and will never comprehend God and will never comprehend any of the Mysteries of the faith so uh not to bash the rat rats and the so-called Conservative Catholics but they love making a character of the dogmas and making a character of the history of the church making a character even of the Saints and of the popes that preceded uh you know uh highest the the ninth or however back they want to go they just make a cardboard cutout caricature that's nice and neat and clean and they want to remove the mystery and uh I prefer the messy reality and confronting in the dogmas the mystery because it's Transcendent it's always going to go beyond our intellect and it's going to be an Act of Faith and of putting our faith in Christ that well I don't quite completely understand how this could be the case or it seems like there's an apparent contradiction but I will respect the general uh you know the general warning which the dog must present which is like don't go beyond this point and uh you know stay stay in bounds and then you can play when you stay in bounds you can play freely like a little child you can have that freedom in Christ and you can play and when the other kids are saying hey you've gone too far in that direction over there it doesn't mean that the child understands the Dogma that is that signpost like you're going too far it just means that the child loves God and is striving to obey God so that's the mentality that I take with the dogmas we don't need to understand them we just need to say hey you're getting warmer warmer hot okay you're in danger oh you're over the cliff you're you're Heretics cosmetic or God forbid apostate like that's that's the way it goes and we look at the history books we can look at people that went over that edge and left the faith and it's like well we warned you we didn't understand the dogmas but we warned you that you were going against the darkness apparently you know what do you say Rebecca well I mean look you guys have a a it it's beyond what I think is necessary but you already know that I mean um so for me um faith is much simpler and you know so yeah I don't know bounce though to your plate to your plate Zone oh no of course there are I mean Orthodox Christianity is you know but I think when we're talking about Orthodox Christianity we're talking about things that have been expressed numerous times in the Bible you know not um and that are like the clear teachings I'd say the Nicene Creed is a you know Fair um assessment of this the essential teachings of the church yeah and so and that Creed talks about a belief in the church right yep well I'll also say um Simplicity seems to be highly stressed and anything you read about prayer um uh dropping as much as you possibly can and approaching everything with childlike Simplicity seems to be the best and it also seems to be the most peaceful way to go about it too and uh so I respect David's um seeking out of dogma and I respect your approach of Simplicity because I'm somewhere in between because I'm not smart enough to tackle the way that David is and I'm not um I'm too compulsive and too like uh rigid to fully Embrace Simplicity but I've been praying a lot for Holy Simplicity with everything because it's um something that I really desire and uh something that God is you know there's certain things that it's just like it's a given you know if you ask for it you'll get it so I believe that I'll arrive there with holy Simplicity and humility and um poverty and spirit and so as long as I have those things I don't really care so much about getting it wrong you know as long as um uh I'm somewhere in the truth it doesn't really it doesn't really matter to me too much but David I like what you do though with your jumping into and sitting you know among the dogmas because um it's this very specific um Adventure where you're like picking something you know letting it marinate sitting inside of it being willing to suspend whatever it is that you initially want to believe and then um like almost developing like an elasticity with yourself we are not resisting something that might be barred and because it's a lot like exercise it seems it seems a lot like what yoga was you know with yoga you'd be trying to force your body to do something that it doesn't normally want to do and it could be really painful but then the more that you do it the more you develop a relationship with something uncomfortable the better your body is to then taking that adaptability and applying it to other things so um you know anytime you crack open your Bible you know that that becomes easier and easier every time you confront another Dogma so it's cool man I just want to say I just want to say to both of you because I don't think either of you appreciates this nuanced aspect of my relationship with the dogmas and with I don't appreciate it at all but uh it's like the you know when I was in I was very awkward obviously as a child and in uh Public School we'd have a dance at the end of the year and I would be at the perimeter like on the benches at the side of the gymnasium and just clinging to my bench clinging to the wall that's how I am with my walk with Christ I'm afraid to go dance in the middle of the ballroom with with Jesus and I want to just cling to those pillars of of truth that are at the side of the gymnasium those these dogmas and it's a weakness it's a cowardice on my part like I just should go play but I'd rather cling to the dogmas so it's just an insecurity I have and I'm well aware of that so I don't want anyone romanticizing it that oh David's intellectual he likes the dog was in the rigid approach no it's not that it's just like I should be playing in the center and living in the freedom that is Christ but I'm just scared and I'm just clinging to the dogmas I'm scared for many reasons I don't want to be fooled and I'm uh you know I also don't want to get hurt playing uh you know in the or even just get hurt dancing like it's just and and to feel like an insecure just loser like I'm not worthy to for any girl to come up and ask me to dance and plus it's the guy it's the guy the guy is supposed to ask it's very effeminate because I I'm the guy I should approach the girl like the cute girl I can look on the Dance Floor I know which girls are cute by my by my tastes so it's a lack of Courage it's a lack of Manliness but at the same time uh we're all on a journey and you know I'll get there I have to get there eventually I have to get into that Freedom that place of freedom and that that true walk of faith rather than being in my head and having this overly intellectual safety zone where I'm just clinging to the wall so I'd like to hear Rebecca's reaction to that well you know uh David I do think there is a greater place of freedom for you um and but it this is like one of those things I Want To Tread carefully because I never want to hurt anybody's Faith um and you said if one of the dogmas could be shown to be wrong then you know I would like leave the faith completely and stuff like that so I don't want to challenge the dogmas because I don't I I don't want to take the risk of you know hurting your faith at all I'll do it I'll damage his face really no no no I would I would welcome it you know I I don't want to believe a false religion and if Catholicism is false I don't want any part of it but I also if Catholicism is false then all of Christianity is false and good luck convincing me otherwise with that one why does it have to be all of Christianity's false if Catholicism is false and why does Catholicism have to be like what I mean is like for me Catholicism is not false right it's I don't find because it's just got some carbuncles attached to it exactly so like why does it have to be so extreme or does it have to be so expensive it's about Authority okay I'll let Aiden answer for me no no because I don't believe that way David I because I really don't I instinctively I'm very simple I've ever since I was a little boy I knew God was was real oh yeah you can't shake my faith in God because my faith in God is based on a philosophical certainty that God exists so I'm going to be a lot yes no matter what but my faith is in Christ and in his church and in right all that stuff so but can you have faith would you have faith in Jesus Christ without the attachment of an established body of the church because I would I would still you wouldn't oh I would one hundo P because the all the Bible verses that that we as Catholics use to um to defend the papacy which I believe in um there's like tons of Wiggle rooms with everything and so you can say you can make tons of you know arguments against it I don't think that they're all valid I don't think they're all great but I do think that there's a ton of gray area and uh so if like God came down was like dude churches and his as black and white as what you're what you're thinking is I'd be like okay I would I'd be fine I'd be fine with that I wouldn't have to have the church to have to have the the whole thing however I will say I do believe more so in the authority of the Bible because of the church and and the way that the Bible reads too because every time I've read the New Testament I there's this aspect to it that doesn't feel comprehensive it feels like like here's a bunch of stuff especially when Paul writes like blah blah blah point point point point point point fill you in later when I get there y'all Deuces that's kind of how I feel that Paul was and so it was like oh obviously there has to be an authoritative Church backing that because um these letters don't seem to be all-encompassing it seems to be here's a bunch of points I want to cover these are really important but all you know um I'll hit you back later yeah and so yeah but again my world wouldn't be rocked either way I'd be let's just say let's just say for the sake of argument that I became convinced that the Catholic church was false and not the true church then my immediate reaction would not be I'm out of here my immediate reaction would be I you know I would be assuming that I'm on my way out but I would first on my way out on my way out of Christianity I would ask people like Rebecca or people that were Christian that were not Catholic I would ask them okay so the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth where is the church where is the church where is the church I want to know where the church is if it's not the Catholic church and every time I argue online and I had a big argument on Twitter recently with a bunch of Protestants uh and I just asked them we were talking about the Perpetual virginity Mary and I'm like well what does the church teach and they're like well the Catholic church is not the church I said I know I know that you believe that the Catholic church is not the church so what I'm asking you is what does the church teach well the Catholic church is not church I know that right I know that the Catholic church is not the church according to you but you do believe that Christ came to Earth and built a church and that the church is the pillar and foundation of the church so you do believe in the church that Christ built and you do believe it's not the Catholic church but where is the Catholic Church where is the church The Universal Church that Christ built that's what I would ask on my way out and in my experience in uh you know since 2009 of interviewing people on my podcast Protestants asking them where the church is no one has told me they've just said this this nebulous uh cluster of individuals who are saved or or whatever and they don't have a list of of established doctrines they don't develop the doctrine they don't use reason to see the connected truths the truths that are logically necessarily connected to the established essential saving truths that are revealed explicitly in scripture they don't have a website they did they don't have anything right they don't they can't point me to the church all they say is it's not the Catholic church I love that they don't have a website man yeah right get a website because you have to propagate these teachings you have to propagate these teachings you have to make it make it available what is the church if the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth it's 2022. make a website and just list the essential saving truths so that we can have because that's the role of the church the role of the church is to guard and protect the essential saving truths and to develop our understanding of those truths and to find and discover organically connected truths that's what that's the role of the church like that's 100 obvious to me I don't know how you two see the church but that's how I see the role of the church it's the holy spirit that indwells the church and it's guiding us and it's protecting us that's how I see it I'll concur I just I'm just not as fiercely attached to the concept as you because I'm also always wrong or most of the time I'm wrong and so I'm okay with being Prime I'm okay I'm okay you know what I mean I know you are I'm okay with being wrong like if but all I'm saying is that there's a conspicuous silence on the question of where the church is if it's not the Catholic church that's fine just show me where it is period well go ahead Rebecca I'm sorry well David I think it's um you know how when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus and you know he said look the spirit you know is like the wind you can't always see where it's going you know where it came from but you see the effects and the church is I like the term you used the mystical Body of Christ now so you think I'm part of the mystical Body of Christ but not the official church but see to me those who are part of the body of Christ those who are in Christ are the church that is the church now what's interesting is that you think that the dogmas still we can't explain them all right Okay so why do we even have to get to that level can't we with what with what we have with the scripture with um the what the Holy Spirit has spoken to us um why can't that be enough to guide the church the Holy Spirit indwelling the Believers is guiding the church and we have the scripture that has been passed down to us that's our guide what does that say about the Perpetual virginity of Mary well I don't see much okay so I I wouldn't but I wouldn't make a comment on that right so I I mean they're just as in the Catholic Church there's people with differing ways of understanding the dogmas and different interpretations of certain things well that there's room for that um you know in in what I see as the bounds of the church as well so I don't really see how having all these established dogmas is actually um adding to the guidance do you know what I mean like in a necessary way can I talk to that for a second um I think that it serves as a protective mechanism for the deity of Jesus and so like whenever something is established About Mary it was typically done in response to an attack on the divinity of Jesus specifically so like um like the ever virginity of Mary which seems like the Bible seems to contradict that by talking about the brothers of Jesus which um other books of the Bible like if you go through the different um gospels um those those are those children are accounted for as Mary the life of who is it David Mary the wife of uh clocus yeah um but like uh basically those things were built up that is an adorable Camp um what his or what's his or her name Mr Nice Kitty oh he needs a kiss on the head cute um yeah they just existed to basically like shut down any argument against Jesus being um Jesus being God and so um like like Mary's theotokos like Mother of God um you know I forget what the heresy was that that came about that was trying to rob Jesus of his being both fully God and fully man um but by establishing that Jesus or that Mary gave birth to God um and not to um well and David how did the argument go with uh with Mary is um Mother of God Mary is the mother of Jesus and Jesus he's a Divine person he's a God man he's fully godfully man and mother is not uh Mary is not the mother of his divine nature right here is the mother she is the mother of the whole person person right Mary is the mother of the whole person but I want to say something here that's very very important for my opposition in the Catholic church and why I don't believe that any other definition of the church will ever entice me other than the Catholic church that we see today in Vatican City in Rome and that is sexual morality okay there is such a thing as the natural law is real and I am I will never leave monotheism I may leave Christianity but I'll never leave monotheism and I will always have the natural law I will always have the knowledge of what's right and wrong specifically in the family intimacy sex marriage uh it's it's just a slam dunk there's nobody that can come close to the Catholic church when it comes to sexual morality period so it ain't gonna happen I'm never going to leave the Catholic Church and on that note there are movements within the Catholic Church of liberals who want to change the teachings on sexual morality it's happening all the time it's always been happening and my good friend asked me like what are you going to do if the pope goes along with the German Bishops and starts celebrating a gay so-called marriage and these sorts of things and I just responded that there are splits taking place schism's taking place all throughout the history of the church and cooler heads always Prevail even with arianism which dominated in the 4th Century or whenever it was cooler heads prevailed Saint athanasius led the charge and uh you know I will God willing I will always be in touch with natural law to the extent where I'll always follow the remnant the small thread of the real true church that Christ built and the natural law is key to that so I think I want to emphasize that part of my uh justification for staying in the church too what do you make of the advantage of scripture and this does have this is connected to this okay what you just mentioned but what do you make of Jesus when um he's responding to the Pharisees and he says don't you realize that David and his companions went into the house of God and they took the bread that was only lawful for the priests to eat and Jesus actually affirmed that action of David even though it was um against the law yeah so if some radtrad Conservative Catholics started lynching homosexuals I'd be there saying hey the law kills and the spirit gives life you uh you've missed the point of Christianity right this is your brother this is your brother your wayward brother this that's promoting homosexuality and it's an unrepentant homosexual or whatever the case may be I would just say this is your brother in Christ and uh you've missed the point of Christianity buddy you're living by the letter of the law not by the spirit of the law well and actually we'd also be we'd be morally obligated to physically interview intervene and and stop that action from occurring it's called bigotry it's called bigotry when you invoke God by God this by God that that's where that by God by God bigot that's where the word bigot comes from it's a it's a religious hypocrisy it's pharisaic it's pharisaical it's just that's the root of bigotry and it's mainly the right wing that is guilty I would say of that the left wing just wants to indulge and go the other way and say well look I God loves me God's good I can indulge in whatever pleasure I want without consequence they're going too too far the other way I find that less culpable than the right wing who are pharisaical so I'm on your side Rebecca I know you've leaned slightly left so I'm I'm more on your side than on the right track side mm-hmm Rebecca talk to us about prayer I really love prayer interests me and I know that you're a woman of prayer and um you have some cool experiences so you should share them because it's getting heavy with dogma and what the church is but prayer is dope and I want to hear I want to hear about it yeah well look guys prayer I I would actually say prayer is one of my bigger struggles in faith um so I I don't don't think of me as like this devout woman sitting around in like you know down on my knees and doing the sign of the cross I mean like I I have friends that are like that and I love that and I want to be like that right my husband has like a prayer list of like 200 people that he phrase for every day and I'm like I want to be like that but um it but really for me I mean I do have time where I I sit and and I um connect with God um and and you know I do of course pray for people that ask me to pray for them and and you know and there are people who naturally come to mind that I pray for I would say though like prayer is like um so I don't know if I'm qualified to like tell people about like how to be you know good prayer I think he was impressed by the Deliverance Prayer you did over me uh last night I did really like that I think I think he wants you to do that for him right now that was not a roundabout way of saying that but yeah I would I'll always take prayer I'm just I'm just fascinated by the subject of prayer and um uh I don't know I know that you're a prayerful person and I in my experience with prayer um I don't think people that engage in prayer ever think that they're good at prayer I think that it's it's a struggle for every human being who picks that cross up and um uh I always think of stranger things um have you watched stranger things uh no neither of you have so this is going to be lost on you but um there the main character is this girl and she's endowed with these telekinetic powers and she can go on to this different plane of of living and she disappears at the end of the first season and her friend is trying to um get in contact with her and the way that he would always do this is through his radio and he would set His Radio to static and he would sit there and try to tune in to her and like try to find her and he knew that it was helpless but he would still sit there in his basement and he would just dial out and try to try to talk to her and try to get get her attention and that's how I feel that human beings are with their prayers no matter what their prayer um is that they go to whether it's repetitive whether it's contemplative silence whether it's you know Rebecca the way that you engage in prayer I feel like everybody eventually gets to that point where they're sitting there kind of listening to static and trying to um see if you know they can find God yeah I just want to say one thing before you talk Rebecca which is that I've been struggling this year uh 2022 it's been a rough year I think coming out of it now like I was telling Aiden before my life and uh I learned some valuable lessons from Dancing With the Devil and saying yes to Temptation stuff like that and particularly in the realm of prayer life like there's sort of like Matthew Murdoch used to say that his prayers were bouncing off the ceiling they he couldn't break through the ceiling and I can now relate to that I understand even though you know I haven't sort of Fallen maybe to the extent that my friend Matthew Murdock has been struggling uh past couple of years with some heavy stuff and he's going to come back on the show hopefully you'll get to see him Rebecca but um I've interviewed him many times sweet sweet guy um but he reached out to me today he's coming back he's in therapy but um this idea of the prayer is bouncing off the ceiling I sort of had a palpable experience of that to some small degree this year and then to go to confession and then to have that once again that sort of natural organic relationship not only with God but with creation is uh it's a holistic thing it's not it's not okay we have the cross the vertical and the horizontal it's true but it's one cross it's one reality the natural and the Supernatural is one reality that's the sort of conclusion that I've come to and that the naturalness of being alive being healthy eating well making good choices about sleep or whatever these are all Godly things and if you read the Eastern desert fathers on the discipline of our passions and lusts for food or sex or water or whatever it might be um you come to see the natural and the supernatural it's one thing this this experience of the walk with God and striving to be Christian it's one organic thing and the prayer life is more natural than we might think it is we might be fantasizing it's this multi-dimensional sci-fi special effects but I think it's more today it is so that don't take away my what I'm saying is that instead of instead instead of either or I want the both and because the the Saints I think the saints were in touch with both dimensions the vertical and the horizontal Dimension right and they were you know appreciating this world and the naturalness of this created World while simultaneously being in touch with the spirit world and to the to the extent where there were Saints who could actually see their garden guardian angel and they could actually see other people's angels and they could see just Angels generally and you could argue that's some sort of Mental Illness but I believe I firmly believe I choose to believe that these were holy men of God who were just given that Grace you know well what's the saying David Grace Builds on nature and so of course it would start at a very very natural spot that makes that makes all the sense in the world yeah and the way the way I pray is unnatural because I'm like oh my God now I'm in prayer mode I've got to what am I going to do I gotta do this I gotta do that I gotta say these words I'm not even listening I'm thinking about praying I'm not I'm praying but I'm not paying attention and it's just a total it's totally unnatural and what I challenge one of your things then about prayers bouncing off the ceiling yeah what if what if it was just your perception and not the actual reality like what if those prayers were all being heard it was the best prayers ever they were the best yeah because they felt so awful because you felt no consolation yeah because you felt dryness like what if those were like yeah it could be really uplifting you and you were just like perceiving them as so I should send some more so get back into that statement I'm just kidding well where's Santa bounds Grace abounds all the more I think I read that somewhere David didn't you read that anywhere yeah but he also says should we therefore sin God forbid well I'm not saying sin for the sake of prayer I'm just saying like I don't know because we get we get really hard on ourselves like like and I know I tend to do this so I have to battle scrupulosity Rebecca like all the time you know and so I choose to like go easy on myself and I'm like it's too it's just too heady so I'm like oh I did this therefore this doesn't count it's harsh [ __ ] there's just no other way to put it it's just total garbage um and uh sorry David it really it just really is I mean I agree I agree like what I know that like like theologians like to say like you know if you totally disconnect yourself from God then your prayer is ineffective do you know why that's wrong because the the harshest sinner when he turns in her pants and comes to God is usually like in the muck the migrant the worst of the worst and if that were the case then those people wouldn't be able to turn around face God and pray I mean and that's how they're lifted up out of that so and I want to add to that too because it actually diminishes the power like it it it I'm not it I can't actually diminish the power but what I mean is it diminishes our view of the power of Jesus Christ and his blood in making us holy and clean before God and so it you know sometimes I find myself sitting down and thinking okay you know now I'm gonna pray because now I've I've been like good today you know what I mean so like God is going to hear me and then I I have to correct myself and say no that is wrong I can pray I can face God today because of the blood of Jesus I have been made holy I have been cleansed I am um I am reconciled to God and I'm United to him and because of what Christ did so um that mode that we get into I like your word the scrupulosity or whatever where it's like you're you're like kind of like accounting for yourself is is it's really just a lack of seeing the power of Jesus Christ and what he did 10 minute warning for the call okay oh man lame no but I I I'm convinced there's more fluidity in our faith than we really think there is there's this beautiful um there's this beautiful reality that um can't be expressed and can't and can but can definitely be accessed and um uh I think that we get caught up again in images in like what everything is supposed to look like and like um or even just pictures of the Saints you know we see these Saints we see them in like robes we always see them in like their religious attire and we think like is that what heaven is and it's like who knows who knows but I will say um one of the things that really brought me into Catholicism is the existence of the Saints and so Rebecca your friend I want to read read this to you so I've been reading about um Saint Francis and um he's just so awesome uh just so cool and uh he has there's like a collection of stories um called the little flowers so Catholic so Italian Catholic it's not even funny um but when I read this I thought of your friend Mary and uh this is um Saint Francis and brother maccio so they came to a church which Francis said damasio let's go inside and hear mass and pray but when they went inside they saw the priest was not there so Francis went behind the altar while there he received a vision from God that set his soul on fire it was as if love Flames were coming out of his eyes and mouth Francis approached Macio in the state and cried out brother give yourself to me he said it three times and by the third time nasio ran to Francis and hugged him then Francis was saying ah in the power of the spirit and with his holy breath he lifted Matthew up into the air massio was stunned he later told the companions that it was the most consoled and loved he ever felt in his life and I was like oh that sounds like Mary that sounds like the woman who hugs people and people feel like they're being consoled by God himself and yes um yeah but I wanted to share that with you because um you know uh I think that it's so cool that when you do one of the the cool entry points in the Catholicism is the body of uh of Christ um and the Saints and um you Rebecca know so many living Modern Day Saints that you go to church with but then also there's this invisible body that's backing us up and um in Orthodoxy and Catholicism you have this log of all of these you know holy people that have gone before us that we have direct access to and companionship with in this very moment and to me that's a very that's just such an exciting concept and um in Protestant Christianity it seems to be lacking in something there's a liveliness that that could be present there but isn't there and just wanted to see what you what you think about that yeah I have to say this is one of the concepts that I'm not sure about okay so because because of course I believe in the Saints I I'm sure I would accept all the saints that the Catholic Church accepts as Saints and in fact I'm sure I'm looking at two things that Mother Teresa oh no I love Mother Teresa no it's just being one of the naysayers I actually love her too okay she gets bashed a lot by uh she does yeah that's the joke I'm gonna make a new link and I'm both happy to continue yeah definitely okay I'll be right back I'm gonna send it by email check your email now okay okay love you both talk to you soon foreign ER meanwhile I could play this music by Aiden foreign [Music] 's music uh in the intermission while I was waiting for you to join Hayden should be joining us here shortly here he is Bing Bang Boom and I'll just minimize myself hey Aiden can you hear us yep nice all right we were just talking about the Saints uh Rebecca what was the last thing you were saying well I was just saying look guys I'm I'm not sure about this um and that's because there's so many warnings about Consulting with the dead and things in scripture so right I'm not sure I I really like I'm not against this like if somebody tells me that they you know you know they're praying to Saint so and so to help them with something I'm not going to correct them um I I'm like open to it but it would probably God would have to tell me himself that right I should be connecting with the Saints who have gone before no I respect that I totally I totally get that um because there's a lot of there's so much so many warnings in the Old Testament about um Witchcraft and sorcery and don't consult with Wizards and um yeah I understand that I guess the whole concept just kind of balances on the New Testament scriptures talking about being alive in Christ and God's not a god of the Dead He's a god of the living and so when you really explore that it's like oh they're all just alive and animated in Jesus and so if I have direct access to Jesus I'm going to always have indirect access to all of those who are dead in him anyway and so then it's just a matter of okay well this person fascinates me they have a direct unique connection to God because they are created in the image of God but also uniquely themselves and so um that's always just where I came out with Saints where um you know David's just another reflection of God in just his own David Canadian um white trash way you know I want to say I want to say something here uh you know when I pray to the Saints I don't always do this but I sometimes do this especially when I go see Saint brother Andre who has a tomb here in Montreal uh he did many many many many miracles allegedly we're not obliged to believe it but the church just made him a saint and I I think it'd be foolish not to believe um when I pray in front of his tomb I put my head make the sign of the cross put my hands on his tomb his body is in there his headless bodies in there and he has his heart has been removed so his heart he's on display in a jar uh oh his head yes I think his head is still attached I'm not sure about that one it might be in New York state David the whole um head in the jar thing if you're trying to convince people of Catholicism like the whole it's like okay yeah we have his heart okay yeah so maybe not the best sales pitcher but what I wanted to say what I wanted to say to show my sympathy to the non-catholic Christian perspective is that when I pray to Saint brother Andre what I say is you are nothing I only love you because you love God so perfectly by the grace of God it's by the grace of God that you love God so perfectly you are nothing and I only love you because by the grace of God you loved God perfectly and then I start gushing toward him okay so that's the that's the that's the product because I was born and raised Protestant I have the same fears you have I also do not want to worship an idol so when I kneel in front of a statue at church whatever Saint it is usually it's uh Saint Mary I will say Saint Mary you are nothing I only love you because by the grace of God you have all these merits in Christ period period you are nothing Saint Mary you are nothing and you are the highest Saint why because you knew more than any other Saint you knew your worthlessness your valuelessness without Christ you're nothing and you knew it and that's why I love you I love you because by the grace of God you know you're nothing and you love perfectly by the grace of God you love God by the grace of God so I think you need to understand the Catholic perspective on prayer to the Saints it's a very very humbling thing not only for me it's humbling for the saint I'm reminding the saint not that he needs reminding he or she needs a reminding but it's just an exercise that I go through to let God know to let God know that I have things in the proper order in the proper perspective there's an infinite Chasm between Christ and his mother there's an infinite Chasm but there's another infinite Chasm between Mary and the next highest saint and then there's an infinite cosm between me and the lowest Saint in heaven so in that wild Spectrum I fit in somehow and it's only by the grace of God and it's all about humility and reality that's that's reality so I'm not insulting the Saints I'm not insulting myself I'm not beating myself up I'm certainly not beating up the Blessed Virgin Mary when I remind her that she's nothing but I think non-catholic Christians need to understand that we go we go through this right Aiden yes uh I yeah and I that's why I usually I never use the phrase anymore pray to Saints I say I ask for the prayers of the Saints there's a there's a definite um there's a difference yeah right but I mean also like we in Christianity we use it in direct like the way we use the word is we're talking to God only like that's the way we use the word colloquially well and and like if you look at old books and like old Catholic Books too like the we'll use the word worship you know like oh we we worship you mother and it's like annoys me so much because I'm like all those books need to no David should stop it no because it's just like because then because then you're fighting against like all these misconceptions see it says Hear worship and it's just like no it's wrong it's just somebody's stupid I didn't know I'm more like Pope Francis I love the ambiguity I love being interpret it I mean I guess I'm trying to learn to love it but then I'm also like you know I don't know when you're when you're talking to other people about it see the problem is Rebecca when you have like religion mixed with a culture you're gonna have get this watered-down teaching that occurs and then all of these these errors that occur alongside of them and then are just born into it like folk Catholicism is born and it's beautiful in one sense because it's nice to know that something is so big that it like hits a large group of people but then it's also really depressing because you get then the people that are like they know more about the Virgin Mary's apparitions at Fatima than they do about what's the Bible we don't read that we're Catholics you know that kind of that kind of attitude and it's like it's like that's not it is that's not it at all and um and so I find myself on the side of being irritated um by the lack of um I don't know I guess it's just the last decision yeah precision and also Clarity also the fact that like it's so easy to become lukewarm and to think you really like nailing it like I just I want to confession and I got my I got my my communion way for this week we're good to go said my Hail Mary and my our father and all right I'm in with God and it's like that's not it at all that's not even like close to it I mean you have to have those structures in place um though you have to be able to like um you know have those realities present to like benefit everybody but it just you know sucks in the meantime it's well I don't know I like the borders but I don't like that everybody then just goes to the lowest common denominator as a result I I do agree with I do agree with you and I just want to emphasize for the sake of uh Rebecca that I do agree with you but these are essential in preparation for the the bottle because it's it's a spiritual battle and so the sacraments prayer in the sacraments give me the health the Vigor the energy the clarity to fight the battle to get in The Fray and to fight the battle the spiritual battle that's taking place here in this in this world so uh although I could agree with you you know about the how superficial it is to have your checklist Catholicism and you go to get your sacraments and do your prayers yes yes but I can also tell you from this year with in my struggle in my spiritual spiritual battle inside myself with my own concupiscence that prayer in the prayer bless you prayer in the sacraments are absolutely essential and absolutely palpably real in terms of enabling me to fight the real fight that needs to be fought it's absolutely incredible and I would be I could tell you right now I would be lost without prayer in the sacraments and it's not that I'm good at prayer it's not that I'm worthy in the sacraments or anything like that I mean I'm I'm I have to receive in a worthy manner yes but it's not like I'm good at it um but uh it's all about the Battle it's all about being battle ready that's what it's all about and I think that's what you're saying I think that you're saying we need to be alive we need to be alive in the faith to be active in the faith so I think we agree and it happens everywhere it happens in every Church it happens in every faction I mean you have the people that are like John 3 16. you know we're good go you know do XYZ and I'm going to heaven anyway because Jesus is my Lord and then which is it's the same thing you know um yeah I I I I actually agree with you David I think it is about being battle ready of course you know you would say maybe that I'm not doing the sacraments because I'm not doing them at the Catholic church but I do believe that you know this is what the you know the the spiritual disciplines and and things that we do are not a salvific for us they're not you know they don't they don't you know increase our acceptance with God but they do help us in this battle because we are in a battle and so um you know we we do when we putting on the full armor of God right we are we're um you know keeping that helmet of salvation on you know the breastplate of righteousness so what when we're walking out in Good Works we're not achieving anything between us and God because the reconciliation is already there we've already been United to Christ I'm already seated in the Heavenly Realms with Christ I'm I'm I'm there laughing with Father Son and Holy Spirit that is where I actually am in the spirit and that doesn't change if I oop okay I sin today oh I failed it only roams anymore I've got to go to confession and get back up there no I have been placed in the Heavenly Realms with Christ that's where I am I'm always with him but the question is now how am I gonna walk that out in this world and I think you're right that what is what prepares us for the battle is staying in prayer and and you know confessing our sins and um you know taking communion and these types of things these um these do Keep Us Alive in the battle I want to make an analogy that I think will uh solidify that we're on the same team here we're on the same we're on the same page which is my work I'm notoriously lazy I hate working a nine-to-five job I hate it hate it hate it hate it it's like slavery I'm just looking at the clog I just hate it okay once in a while I'll have a task that is Meaningful and I'm creative and I can exercise my freedom at work and I feel good and you know everyone thinks I'm a genius at work and everything else but most of the time it's just drudgery and I just hate it okay so the battle there is uh very similar because my boss loves me uh my supervisor loves me he literally considers me his brother we've known each other like since 1989 uh but so a year before I was born I'm on the team okay I belong to the company I'm on the team they love and respect me I love and respect them but I'm a lazy SOB okay I'm a lazy SOB they don't know it they do not know it I think I'm a good employee but I'm a lazy AF so uh the battle the battle here the internal battle for me every week right now I'm on holidays but when I go back to work the battle is always the same battle how can I be how can I die to self and be of service how can I use the talents God gave me to be of service and to be really present and not just counting the hours to my lunch break or to when I get to go home that's exact same battle and it's the same thing in the church yes I'm in the church yes okay yeah I belong yeah God loves me Christ died for me whatever yeah okay but can I get past my selfish desires can I get past that and sometimes I do sometimes I don't it's for for the most part I'm just disgusting I'm just a disgusting lazy loser and it's the same thing in the workplace and if I to the to the extent that I'm aware of that and it sounds like I'm beating up on myself and I'm being too harsh on myself but it's it's a reality I can I promise you that but to the extent that I'm aware of it and I'm working on it I can make little improvements and I communicate with my supervisor and I like just recently before going on holiday I apologize to him I said look I've been very difficult this year I've been going through some stuff personally I haven't been productive I've been distracted and he said David I love you you're my brother and we all go through things I'm you know you're here you're part of the team you do good work and you're you're this you're that and you know and so he's upbuilding me and I felt better and you know it's that communication it's the exact same thing with Jesus Christ in in the sacraments and in prayer life it's like look I'm a loser I'm disgusting I'm not worthy I'm not worthy I'm not worthy and he's like I love you I died for you and let's just keep going and I'll give you some strength so it's exact same thing does that resonate with either of you definitely it does except that I I do think and look I think it's beautiful and honest when people recognize their sin and they recognize where they're at like you know that you recognize the depravity the corruption that exists within you but you know the the way that I see the New Testament talking about us is that you were once Darkness now you are light in the Lord so walk as children of the light put on the new self created in true righteousness and Holiness and so I kind of feel like it's not that what you're saying is not true but I kind of feel like um the more that we focus on ourselves as terrible Sinners if when we focus on the sin then we're more likely to stay in it whereas when we focus on the holiness then we're more likely to live holy oh I'm productive today at work I'm productive yeah I could try that I could try that I could try that yeah like I mean if you go to work and instead of saying what a lazy guy I am I hope I can overcome this terrible laziness you know instead if you go to work like wow I am so holy Christ has made me so holy I thank God that I am no longer that person that I used to be because I have the righteousness of Christ and the power of the holy spirit is in me to carry out all of God's will God created me to do good works and he's empowered me to do those in his spirit and um you know here I am a person that has been transformed and I'm being transformed every day more and more into the image of Christ and so you know I feel like sometimes when we focus on the negative we actually make what Christ did so little you know because if people hear you saying this you know there's there's plenty of people in the world that are like okay well then what has Grace done for you you lazy slob you know exactly exactly they get it thank you I'm just being sarcastic but no I appreciate it I'm going to live stream you at work just so you can stream all day while I'm at work you could be in the little corner of my screen pep talks yeah what do you think I think it helps to see Holiness not necessarily in like a personal sense but also just in like a set aside type of sense you know like Holiness being to be set aside for something and so then you don't have to like we don't have to like self-inflict um you know uh uh and self-wound but it reminds me of the story of two monks that were both guilty of the same sin and they both go off to their priest or bishop and they're like what do you want us to do and he's like I want you to spend a year in in Repentance and uh fast on bread and water so they come back and um the one is bright and beautiful and golden and the other one is like thin and emaciated and crying and and he says to the one that's crying like what did you do and he's like I fasted and I cried and I wept for my sins and he said oh that's acceptable and he turned the one who was all bright faced and like beaming and he said what'd you do and he said I thank God for my forgiveness and he's like that's also acceptable and then David I told you this story before this is from the desert fathers but it's I just I love seeing that the two and he's like well both of those things are acceptable and all I'm thinking to myself is like I want the one that was easier give me give me the goal give me the golden base dude like yeah yeah I'll praise I don't want to fast you know I'm like such a fat kid at heart so I'm just like whoa where's the one where we avoid the suffering I use I know that that's not possible but still Saint Teresa of Avila or Saint Teresa the Little Flower one of them said uh if you fast fast for God or you can Feast Feast for God so it doesn't matter it doesn't matter fast or Feast but do it for God I think Saint Paul said something similar enough yeah I like that because I like the option of not um saying no to me but you have to do it for God that's the thing right I know and I do know that I need some some fasting you need to lose weight you're chubby I am I am I am and it's something I I struggle with I didn't know that yeah I was kidding now I feel bad that I made the joke oh I don't take offense to it I'm gonna fast for a year on bread and water I think that's the stream that's what they were guilty of they were poking fun at their brother no um go ahead Rebecca oh I was just gonna say well Aiden you mentioned that you wanted to talk about the rosary I brought my rosary that my friend sent me from Israel wow yeah I've got mine right here cool so I I'd be happy to learn from you guys and David I did listen to your the thing about the Marion dogmas that you sent me this morning did you learn anything yep yes I did I want to grab something it clarified me that clarified for me that the Catholic teaching okay and I guess there was only I mean and so I think there's some interesting points and then there's some points that I'm kind of like hmm I don't know so um but I'll let you guys just tell me what you want to tell me about the rosary and about Mary [Music] begrudgingly every day well try to do it every day it's an uphill bottle for me it's so cool it is um it is so I want to start off with one anecdote and I was working at Sacred Heart Hospital and anybody who would talk to me about Jesus I just wanted to like like I just wanted to listen to their stories because I love I love a good mystical story I love a good I want a miracle story I want demons I want angels I want battles I want um Supernatural I want to hear all of it you know and um and uh so one of what's up is Brianna here oh come on give me a break give me one second sure hey my little sister's here oh cool very cool yeah so is your Rosary made with the wood of a special Tree in Israel do you know not sure not sure I just know it came in a package like that was postmarked from Israel and it says like Jerusalem on the cross in the back ah very cool yeah because I think I think maybe they try to use the same type of tree that was used in the True Cross of Christ do you know the name of the tree I can ask Aiden he might know it no my little sister dropped by so actually I have to yeah I have to cut this short but okay there's two things I just wanted ah man let's get into the good part you like busted we could do it again yeah we'll do it again I know let's do a thing where we can go through the whole roses yeah okay let's just go Rosary okay Rosary all right so you want me to save what I had prepared ah man Lane okay you won't feel rushed you can go ahead if you want to I'm just I just I just love it it's so infectious all right I'll give you I'll just give you this one thing so um it's Sacred Heart I had a patient and his mother was very charismatic and he was a grown man she was in her 60s or 70s and she used to have very anti-catholic stance but she was also Pentecostal and she said she had two moments where she walked in on nuns praying the Rosary and both of them were very illuminative and they were both um what what she stopped speaking poorly about Catholics as Christians she said I I walked in on a nun praying her Rosary she was walking around her room she had her beads in her hand she was praying and she said the room is filled with the Holy Spirit like a physical manifestation of of clouds of the Holy Spirit and she's like and that's ever since I had those those moments I stopped talking disparagingly about Catholicism and I stopped um speaking poorly about the Rosary and I thought that that was really you know just a cool just a cool little um little moment that I got to have that was it was Illuminating for me because I always questioned my choices no matter what I do and I think anybody anybody does if they're being honest with themselves and uh I thought it was really freeing and lovely to hear somebody um talk about um you know one of their biases uh being erased but the other thing I'm going to leave you with is this um so Robert Llewellyn Anglican wrote a book called um into Silence I Believe or a doorway to silence and it's about the rosary and he writes and I believe he stole this from Saint Julian to Norwich I was taught that every contemplative Soul To whom it is given to look and to seek will see Mary and pass on to God through contemplation and so any fear that we have about looking at mother Mary can be erased because she is almost um exclusively just used as a stepping stone to get to the Lord and I guess you could always say like why use her in the first place but it's there's just something about having a mother available to you and sometimes we have this block against seeing God as a mother and so when we start looking towards Mary we start looking at God in a different lens and we can see him as that Eternal mother and father that he actually that he actually is and I think Mary gives us with that ability but that's all I got that's all I got because I gotta bounce now but well okay thank you Eden enjoy your sister enjoy your sister she comes from afar uh 15 16 minutes but I haven't seen her in like years okay yeah it's been it's been a couple years I know I know so I gotta go make her coffee and and show her the house and and be a good big brother so all right I love you both thank you so much for everything Rebecca keep me in your prayers David definitely keep me in your prayers again you're both in you too yeah thank you so much and we'll book you for another uh talk with Rebecca okay yeah let's do it because I really do want to go down that road too and then I'll do a prayer for you also yeah like a real one yes okay we can open it up with that I think sure okay that'll be super awesome so all right guys I will I will bye talk soon cool nice guy yeah yeah I love Eden he's great do you know how his uncle is no I haven't talked to I interviewed him twice and I haven't talked to him since but he's uh he's a cool guy too um uncle uh was it Mark Mark you got it you got it yeah here memory is better than mine so yeah did you happen to catch his interview that I did with him one of the two yes I did so he's uh had his own challenges like we all do whatever and uh pretty cool he's pretty authentic sincere guy open but uh yeah so talking with Aiden he's got a slightly different take obviously from myself right so you find that refreshing that we're not all in the same in the same rut uh you know oh no I mean individuals we're all individuals because I would hate to you I would hate to give you the impression that this is what it's like where morose and we're you know down on ourselves and all this sort of stuff no I have other Catholic friends David okay so don't worry okay I have a spectrum of you know but but you know if I'm giving you a hard time for being down on yourself or whatever you know but don't think that I I think poorly of you I think very highly of you you're blessed you you have a wonderful faith you know I'm I I have a very great respect for you and and so I'm I mean to me your faith is is wonderful thank you very much um so what uh what did you feel about uh uh did you want to talk a little bit about the merry stuff before we wrap up okay sure let's do it so just okay do you have it notes handy or just no I just listened to it this morning so I should be able to kind of Recall now I think I mentioned this before but this was you talked about this and read from the book um it the thing that I find the most interesting about Mary is this idea of her as the the new EVE yeah you know that and so I'm contemplating this idea of her being a bigger role in our Redemption than maybe I've given her credit for yeah okay so um and and then from that I can also see how we would derive the sinlessness of Mary okay like um because you know if you think okay for Christ to be born without the taint of sin then we would then you know maybe Mary would have to be sinless so I can I can get there right but I'm not saying I I'm not saying I'm there like I I also think well you know that would be mysterious right that would be mysterious how she could end up sinless and and the way that you explained it or the way the book explained it is this was God's doing God just he did it that way and that's that's that's all the explanation we're gonna get right like this is a work of God he he made her sinless right um so I'm fine with that kind of mystery so but then I'm also fine with the mystery of how if she wasn't sinless then how could Our Savior be sinless um while she had sin and so I'm fine with that mystery too I understand and so I'm fine with both either way that it goes either way whatever the truth is there's a mystery there and then I guess it would be strange to me although this was you explained this but I mean you also explained it in terms of a mystery because you said there the the idea is that while Mary was sinless she still needed the salvation of Christ and so that's a little bit harder to understand how that works theologically so maybe we could talk about that yeah I mean I I don't feel a great need to dwell on the sinlessness of Mary because you're I agree with you 100 there's going to be a the tension of a mystery either way and so it's just like if Catholicism turns out to be true this isn't going to be a hurdle for you at all period right yes accept it but we can talk about it a little bit um the prevennient grace is it's a unique privilege that uh was bestowed on Mary that at the moment of conception she was accepted from the general rule which is that we're born into the original sins so um it was just a preemptive move made by God in light of The Graces in the merits of Christ and uh he prepared the ark you know uh or um what's the other analogy that's made with Mary uh issues the Ark of the Covenant she's also I guess Tabernacle maybe yeah the Tabernacle yeah the uh she's the Ark of Noah Noah's Ark you know so there are many many over overlaying um sort of like layers of mystical imagery that's used for Mary the new EVE Arc of the Covenant the Tabernacle the Ark of Noah these sorts of things um sort of like mixed metaphors I guess is okay in Christian doctrine just because we're struggling to understand these things and it sheds light in different ways and there's a lot of poetry involved in terms of just going beyond the literal mundane but um yeah so for me uh it's it's so mysterious that I don't even attempt to understand uh like like just just for example the the fall the Fall From Grace it's called The Mystery of iniquity like uh we can go back to the fall of Adam and Eve or go back to the fall of Satan uh I would love I would love to understand how Pride crept into one of the most glorious and brightest and perfect of the seraphim in the highest Choir in heaven I would love to understand that but I don't think uh well I know it's not possible in this life but I don't think even in all eternity I will fully understand that I think it's a mystery correct me if I'm wrong what's your perspective on the uh the mystery of iniquity in the fall of Satan is it something you think we could grasp eventually on Judgment Day or and in eternity oh I have no idea I think there we will know many things then that we don't understand now so I'm not gonna I'm not gonna count it out that I wouldn't understand it I think probably um it it's likely that we will okay but in this life uh you sympathize with me and you agree with me that we will not understand in this life the mystery of iniquity it's beyond you right now to understand how Satan could have rebelled well I mean I don't think it's completely Beyond like maybe it's not Beyond I mean I don't know like it depends what degree you're talking about for understanding like in the same way that we can understand God yeah we understand God but that doesn't mean we understand everything about God I think there's some things we can understand about the fall and about Satan's fall um that doesn't mean we understand everything but I mean what do you what does it mean to you that you can't understand it well if I I I I will attempt to explain it to a child but first I want you to pretend you're speaking to a child in Sunday school and the child asked you why did Satan if he was a good Angel why did he fall just explain it like you're explaining it to a child in Sunday school for me and then I'll see if I agree with you and if I could add anything or if you're going beyond what I think is reasonable to uh conclude well it seems like we we have some hints in the in the Bible that he wasn't happy with his position he desires God's position so I think the child would interrupt you and just say hold on so he's one of the highest Angels full of God's glory and and he wasn't happy yeah just like don't you see all these days people around you that have like wonderful things wonderful toys and they're not happy with them you know you give a child a toy five minutes they play with it and then they're done and you know you fight and then I wouldn't say this to the child but I mean look around at the most rich and powerful people in the world are they satisfied or do they usually want more than what they have right like so this is this is really radically different from my perspective on Satan like you uh you seem to be bringing this Fallen World into the pre-fall Heaven if we can call it Heaven I don't know what's called heaven or it's just called God and it's in his choir of angels uh choirs of angels you seem to be importing all of this concupiscence and our tendency to sin which were the result of original synonyms result of the Fall it seems like you're sort of uncritically importing all kinds of stuff that doesn't belong in that that space and that time uh uh that's my criticism of your explanation to the child because there's a Perfection there and then that we don't have here and so I think it's misleading to the child to say well just like rich people today they're greedy and they're tempted to want more and they sort of things like the child would say yeah but we're in the Fallen World Satan was not in a fallen world when he fell that's that's where the mystery comes in do you see do you see the problem um well but I mean the same situation existed for Adam and Eve right they were in a good place and yet they were still tempted yeah so I mean but they were tempted by Satan who had fallen already see yeah so the the initial it's the initial one that's the trickiest Adam and Eve falling uh my understanding of that is a lot yeah I mean it's easier for me to understand that because I can see how Satan who has already fallen would pose a threat like if you don't um if you eat it you will not die okay so what some theologians have said and this is speculation what some Catholic theologians have said is that when Satan the serpent or the dragon whatever he was in the garden said if you eat it you will not die that was a threat meaning that eat it or you're gonna die and uh you know so if you eat it you if you eat it you will not die but if you don't eat it you will die because I'm coercing you into eating it that's the interpretation of some theologians so you've got this menacing Fallen creature Satan saying if you eat it you will not die and what he means is you better eat it or you're gonna die at my hands so that's the interpretation of some and the menacing Vibe I've carried with me ever since I've read that interpretation even though it's not the standard or the or the common interpretation I've carried that menacing threat of the serpent with me to this day because it is a fact that that serpent is a fallen creature and so there is that taint of sin in the Garden of Eden even before the fall of Man so uh anyway all of this to say that there is such a mystery about evil that original sin and how God's grace could prevent Mary from having that default condition uh it's it's a connected mystery but it it Harkens back to the fall of Satan for me that's where I want to go to resolve the whole mystery of original sin to begin with and because I believe that it's beyond me to comprehend it I just have to take it on faith and therefore I take the preventive Grace that was bestowed on Mary uh by the same uh by the same sort of Blind Faith so it's not a problem for me because I just I'm not in a position to judge the preventive Grace just like I'm not in a position to judge the mystery of iniquity so I throw my hands up and I say God I trust you and that's it yeah well and I understand that like when I was listening to that I just thought okay well these are things that you know if you're Catholic you accept you know and like I have no problem with that there's lots of things that I just accept you know um because that is the teaching you know of the Bible or whatever um you know even my own Traditions that I've been that I've been raised in so um I I have no problem with that I guess the one that I would say is the most doubtful for me is the Perpetual virginity of Mary yeah and that's simply because I do feel like there's enough in the Bible that like I mean we have Jesus's mother and I mean his brothers talked about and so I know that there are Catholic ways of understanding that like you guys mentioned earlier um but and the other one that I've heard that you guys didn't mention is that these were Joseph's children from a previous marriage I don't believe that I don't believe it you don't believe that okay so and then also there's you know the the verse that says um Joseph had no relations with her until she gave birth you know there are other verses that show that that's not necessarily implying anything about what happens after that point just just like uh when God we talk about God and or Jesus Christ you know he will do such and such until such a time and then does that imply a change afterwards no God forbid so there are many examples they don't uh I don't have them at hand on the tip of my tongue but I could pull up examples like that counter examples where it's just like do you really want to apply that rule to the use of the word until in the Bible because it ain't going to end well for your theology that's for sure you know so yeah we don't need to go down that road but um you know the way I think about the Perpetual virginity and I think this will help you is once you come to adopt the mother of God as your mother the mother of Christ as your mother you will intuitively desire to give the benefit of the doubt to Mary in all things and to believe even if it seems absurd and ridiculous and it seems to contradict the Bible it seems to contradict the history and the archeology whatever you will want to give the interpretation that gives the most glory to the mother of Christ once you have a relationship with her and you will want to just err on the side of right giving her credit giving her credit that implies though that there would be something wrong with her having a sexual relationship with her husband right and so to me that is the part that's like okay for me and I guess you know what to say the real question the real question for me is am I giving Mary the honor that is to her as a Protestant that's the real question that we're dealing with this yeah Perpetual virginity is a side issue it's just the one I said is the most doubtful for me but either way like if she is a Perpetual virgin or isn't to me there's no difference amount of Glory or honor that's given her because I wouldn't see her if she if she had you know had a sexual relationship with Joseph I wouldn't think any less of her you know what I mean because I don't see that as a bad thing but what does Saint Paul say about that which is better which is better virginity or marriage which is better what does Saint Paul teach okay well if you're pulling from you know First Corinthians and you know where he says okay I think it's better at the present time for you to remain as you are right um you know then i i s if you if you pull from that and you make that as an absolute and not just a for that present situation then I guess you could make the argument that it's better to to remain unmarried right let's just ignore the Bible and just talk about what impression you get there are two Saints one was married one was not married one became a none uh which one do you think is uh better which one is better they're equal totally equal so to dedicate yourself to to have a mystical marriage because I don't know if you're familiar with the lives of the Saints the female saints but many of them were betrothed to Jesus they were married to Jesus Christ and they they saw it as a direct Choice like you can marry your fellow man or you can marry me and like Christ basically proposed to them like he can only get married once so is it going to be me or that guy that you're interested in and they chose Christ it's a better choice it's a better choice so you would need to be familiar with a sort of mystical marriage uh that is open not only to women but also to men we can have uh virgins uh male virgins also who are the mystical bride of Christ and the the male Saints also speak of this it's more appropriate I think when speaking to a Protestant to limit our conversation to females who choose Christ as their spouse just because it's less awkward to talk about especially in 2022 when we've got lgbtq stuff going on but um I do consider myself feminine with respect to God in relation to God uh uh I'm passive I'm the bride he's the bridegroom so uh this is a little bit controversial in 22 to talk talk about this but uh it's a reality I do feel that's a reality that I'm a man I'm male but in the spiritual realm relative ontologically relative to God I'm passive and I'm receptive and I'm not the source of anything you know and if I have fertility in the spiritual realm it's because he's going to inseminate me like that's it it's just that's it's just that simple you know so um I can't remember where I was going with this but uh I think it's better to be a virgin yes I wish okay I wish I were a virgin I really truly do wish that I were a virgin I really do you don't um no I mean I look I I feel like you if you're if you are single and you're married to Christ and only him that's beautiful that's wonderful that's a great um representation of you know uh the bride and bridegroom and then the physical marriage between a man and a woman if they're living in a way that's honoring to God it's also a great representation of the bride and bridegroom and I do think there are people and I mean I think you can be married to Christ and have a physical marriage so for sure for sure but uh I just think it's better to be to have that full commitment and uh I admire those who did and the Bible also talks about the The Virgins and the Saints in heaven the sisters things um and there's also the question of Purity which I think is a real thing even though you know marriage is good um in the comments I've got Northern Light my friend who I believe is hails from Scandal somewhere in Scandinavia I can't remember exactly where perhaps Northern Light you can tell me um and I forget if this is a man or a woman but Northern Lights a good friend in the comment section of my YouTube channel and the question is do you both see yourself as Christian humanists so I'll let you start Christian humanist I I have to understand what the definition of a Christian humanist is okay so what does that mean I don't know I could Google it Paris yeah I would say by uh I don't know either but I would just say no I would just by default say no I'm not a humanist because I would need to understand what humanism was beforehand uh Christian humanism I'm reading from Wikipedia here I don't know if it's good source regards humanist principles like Universal human dignity absolutely 100 yes yeah individual Freedom absolutely and the importance of Happiness absolutely as essential and principle or even exclusive component exclusive no components of the teaching of Jesus so okay yeah I reject the happiness part yeah okay okay well I think happiness not in this world but in the next world is absolutely a part of being Christian absolutely yeah so happiness in this world no the opposite it's like right we have to suffer and we have to take the narrow we have to pick up our cross and this sort of thing so uh it sounds like it's got some appealing components the universal human dignity is really really important in this life yes really important and the individual Freedom uh to a lesser extent because we have to be slaves of Christ we have to be slaves of someone and we choose to be slaves of Christ so but Christ is freedom so we have that absolute freedom if we can enslave ourselves to him and we are voluntary slaves of Christ it's not imposed on us and nor should it be imposed on anyone so in that way yes I agree with the freedom part yeah yeah the happiness I have a video called Happiness is a cruel God to serve and many people are serving that God and the problem with making happiness your goal is that um if you are seeking happiness then you know it it will either leave you desirous of more because you'll it'll always be around the next corner um so it keeps you always um on a trail for more or if you finally get what you think what to where you're happy then you always have to be afraid of losing it because the circumstances that have made you happy can always end and so it's quite a cruel God to serve um and it will make you absolutely miserable if you set your heart on gaining happiness for yourself um but if you happiness is the product of a life lived for God so if you align yourself to serving God happiness is often the product of that even in great suffering so you know you can you can be suffering a lot um for Christ and if your life is aligned in the right way even in your suffering you can be happy so I think happiness is meant to be that it's a byproduct of Life lived for God it is never meant to be a goal excellent my I agree with you my friend uh he's in Norway he just let me know he's a male he's an or I can't believe I forgot his sex but uh we chat in the comments uh from time to time and uh yeah so that's uh that's an excellent summary of the the path that we're on I immediately jumped to the outcome in heaven in the other life where we're gonna have that uh participation in the life of the Trinity which is beyond happiness you know and uh he just let me know he's 45 years old I asked him my friend how old he was he's uh 45 years old so uh it's sad but true that we have to wrap it up because my Google meet is kicking me off uh I just got the warning there on the screen but uh to wrap up we'll we will talk more about Mary and uh I like your attitude it's a reasonable attitude and respectful and you know we can quibble over the value of virginity and sexual Purity and all these sorts of things uh another time but um generally I agree with you you know uh and if you come to see the church that Christ built if you see that in the Catholic church then obviously you'll join and you'll accept all the distinctive teachings no matter how bewildering you'll accept them with joy so that's not a problem but in the meantime you know I I respect your attitude and I like that you're um open more open than I would say a lot of Protestants I've talked to so I really appreciate that and if you have a loving attitude and you're jealous for you know God the Father God the Son of God the Holy Spirit you want to put them first as we all do so you're on a safe I think you're on a safe path anything you want to wrap up with no just thank you so much David I I really love these conversations it's a lot of fun and and I look forward to doing it again with a talk on the rosary yeah uh I just wanted to ask you how did it go I meant to pop by I just completely forgot to pop by what was it Friday night yes what did you do who did you talk to were the Christian podcasters that you talked to or what happened yeah there were um two uh mainly two guys another guy tried to come on but his internet wasn't working but um Jamie Russell and Eric the investigative Millennial they came on they're Christians um you know we we talked about the Lord we read some scriptures sang some songs very cool it's good very cool so we'll talk soon and we'll uh hook you up with Aiden again and uh I'll have you back for some more one-on-one and we'll just continue the the dialogue and uh I'll be praying for you and yours and I hope you continue to pray for me and mine and ask your wonderful husband to add me to his list okay yeah you're on it wow it's probably the first time we talked wow wow well thank him heartily for me okay okay okay I love you very much we'll talk soon okay have a happy New Year happy New Year bye