hello I'm Hugh Owen and you're listening to Catholic versus Catholic tell us a little bit about yourself who you are what you believe and how you came to believe what you believe certainly I'm the director of the coal-based Center for the Study of creation which provides a forum for Catholic theologians philosophers and natural scientists all over the world who uphold the traditional Catholic doctrine of creation what was believed and taught by all the Fathers doctors Pope's and council fathers in their authoritative teaching from the beginning of the church and who show the fatal flaws in the alternatives to that traditional account of the origins of man in the universe I got started with this apostolate because my own family was very much affected by the false evolutionary account of the origins of men in the universe that has pretty much taken over the world in the last 100 years my own father Sir David Owen was the son of a Welsh Baptist minister and brought up in a very good Christian home in Wales but in the 20s and 30s my father went to university in England and he was indoctrinated into the idea that science had proven that some molecules turned into human bodies through the same kinds of material processes that are going on now and that this was a scientific fact which showed that the stories in in Genesis were just fairy tales and that science could really explain everything there was no limit to what natural science could explain and it didn't need to appeal to God or any supernatural agency so like millions of other people my father was robbed of his faith and Christianity and became a secular humanist he went to work for the United Nations became an assistant secretary-general then Co administrator of the United Nations Development Programme after 25 years he was knighted by the Queen for his work at the UN but he retired somewhat disillusioned because he looked at the world and he could see that all the problems of the world were much worse than when the United Nations was started and so again he turned to the intelligentsia to find out why and once again they had the answer overpopulation too many people that's why we have Wars and pollution and the economic and social problems cut down on the number of people they said then we'll have enough to go around and all our problems will be solved and so my father but once again believed this consensus view among the academic elite that he was connected to and he agreed to become the first Secretary General of International Planned Parenthood Federation at the very time when IPPF changed its position on abortion in between the world's number one provider of abortion as well as contraception in sex education my dad held that position for just about a year when he died unexpectedly of a heart attack in London when I was just 16 years old and so his death really precipitated my conversion to the Catholic faith because although I had been brought up with no prayer no church no Bible nothing I I still found myself being oriented towards the afterlife after my father's death and I won't go into all the details of my conversion because that I don't think that's really what this testimony should be all about but suffice it to say that less than two years after my father's death I was baptized confirmed and made my First Holy Communion as a Catholic in the Princeton University chapel where I was enrolled as a first-year University student and at that time there were Jesuit priests in charge of the chaplaincy for Catholic students at Princeton and before they received me into the church they gave me a book to study to learn the doctrines of the Catholic faith a book called the Dutch catechism but I always call it the Dutch Cataclysm because at the book that destroyed the fate of a once vibrant Catholic community that sent a disproportionate number of missionaries all over the world who gave their lives to spread the true faith but there was a theme that ran through this Dutch Cataclysm and it was that we live in a scientific age and science has enlightened us about so many things so that we can understand our Catholic faith in a new and better way and so with that nice sounding theme the authors proceeded to sow doubt in the mind of the reader about everything from the existence of angels and of Satan to the reality of Adam and Eve of original sin the historical truth of Genesis the virgin birth the perpetual virginity of Our Lady the Immaculate Conception the intrinsic evil of contraception and just about everything you can imagine so that it's it's a miracle that I survived that Cataclysm and came into the church at all but at that time I meekly accepted this idea that science had enlightened us and that there was no problem for Catholics to accept the idea that molecules turned into human bodies through the same kinds of natural processes that are going on now as long as we believe that God somehow infused a soul into the body of an evolved subhuman primate at a certain point in time but it was probably ten or twelve years later that I by the grace of God I came to the realization that this story that I had been told was completely absurd that this idea that that the the fathers of the church and and those who who handed down the faith to us somehow couldn't understand Big Bang cosmology and biological evolution and that that's why God had given us this this simple fairy tale or myth in Genesis was a absolutely preposterous because it became clear to me that if God had used an evolutionary process to evolve the bodies of the first human being it would have been very easy for him to communicate that to us because the evolutionists use icons to brainwash the whole world to believe in microbe to mean evolution you don't need to know anything about science to understand their icons so obviously if that's what God had done then he could have showed that to Moses and to seeing Hildegard of Bingen and in Saint Brigid of Sweden and all the great mystical doctors and Saints who were shown the work of creation the way was shown to Moses so it just became obvious that the reason why we don't see these evolutionary icons in our in our cathedrals is not because Moses and the Church Fathers and doctors were not sophisticated enough to understand evolution it's because this was a fantasy that was invented by proud human beings who couldn't accept that there are some things that we can't actually figure out by extrapolating from our very limited realm of experience in in a fallen world things that we can only know through divine revelation and then you know I started I realized that the same thing that had happened to my father was happening to Catholics and that if something wasn't done to show Catholics that the traditional doctrine of creation was actually much more credible and and perfectly in harmony with sound theology philosophy and Natural Science the foundations of the faith would continue to be eroded or the the faith would be built on a on a wrong foundation and would consequently be distorted in various ways in either way it would be an ongoing catastrophe which would ultimately result in in an even greater deterioration of Catholic life then we had already witnessed and so that's when I started to try to identify Catholic theologians and philosophers and natural scientists all over the world who rejected evolution and who held fast to the traditional teaching and realized they were actually quite a few of them but had no forum because the people who had been put in charge of Catholic universities and research centers all over the world had completely gone over to this evolutionary way of thinking just as the the Jesuit said the Princeton chaplaincy had done and so that's why we founded the coal-based Center for the study of creation and were incorporated on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception in the Jubilee year 2000 to provide that forum and to to show that sound theology sound philosophy and sound Natural Science completely harmonize with the traditional doctrine of creation which is the foundation of our faith and that they don't harmonize at all with the alternative accounts of men in the universe and we found that when young people in any part of the world are taught this truth they are given a very very strong foundation so in spite of all of the confusion and all of the propaganda that they're subjected to pretty much no matter where in the world they live this is a truth that Shores up their foundations so that they're able to stand and grow up to be strong leaders whether it's priests or religious or members of strong Catholic families so that's our main objective in the cobia center is to make sure that every Catholic young person in the whole world gets to hear at least one good defense of the true Catholic doctrine of creation that is the foundation of our faith of course we want to do a lot more than that but that sort of our our minimum objective and and that's the main reason why I'm talking to you right now why st. Maximilian called me why did you select his name as your inspiration for your website well our primary patroness is the Immaculate Conception because when the father's and doctors commented on the sacred history of Genesis especially the first three chapters one of the things that they wrote which is so beautiful is the the world that God created for us in the beginning was was so beautiful and so harmonious that the only thing that is more beautiful than this entire universe when it came forth from God for us in our first parents we would say in view of the Incarnation and the Immaculate Conception was the Blessed Virgin Mary herself and that thought has really taken hold of us because ever since the dogma of the Immaculate Conception was defined just a few years before the publication of Darwin's Origin of Species it's been apparent that we have an obligation to defend the perfect beauty of our Blessed Mother in every respect against anyone who would be misguided enough to attribute some kind of defect to her and yet we pay people good money every day to go into our own schools and universities and research centers and tell our own young people that God made the world that we City a world that's full of defects and death and disorder and we don't even think twice about it so the Immaculate Conception is our principal patroness because she shows us what God's works really how they reflect his own perfection his own perfect beauty and goodness and that the original creation did so as well and that we have to go back to recognizing that all the disorders the defects the death and destruction and disease and all of these kinds of things are the result of sin and not of God's deliberate plan but we we chosen Maximilian Kolbe as our secondary patron because he was not only an outstanding theologian and philosopher he also loved natural science and his professors actually believed that if he had pursued a career in mathematics or Natural Science he he would have achieved great things and so we thought that it was important to have a paid who had some expertise in the three areas that we try to address through our apostolate theology philosophy and Natural Science but we also chose him because at the very time that my father and so many millions of other people who had been raised in Christian homes whether as Catholics or Protestants or Orthodox were losing their faith because of 11 evolutionary indoctrination st. Maximilian Kolbe was actually writing articles in his journals and magazines which were sent all over the world showing that the emperor of evolution wasn't wearing any clothes that there actually wasn't any sound scientific evidence that something like a microbe evolved into a human body and so we thought that he was a very important patron because of that that he exposed the errors of evolution and he showed that from the standpoint of theology philosophy and Natural Science special creation was a superior account of the origins of men in the universe to theistic evolution now I hasten to add that it's a fact that st. Maximilian did accept the idea of billions of years in the development of the stars and galaxies in the solar system before the history of humanity began thousands of years ago and we've actually been criticised for having him as a patron when he accepted these long ages prior to the creation of man which we do not accept but we don't shy away from that fact at all because we actually think it's very important to acknowledge this fact because it's very significant and the reason it's significant is that there's a very strong tendency among Catholics who are trying to be faithful to the tradition of the church capital-t to hold that things were really very great and you know everything was great in the Church until Vatican 2 and then everything's been downhill since then and this is a very very mistaken view because the reality is if we study the development of modernism which is really at the root of all of the errors that we see today in the whole crisis of faith that is causing so much harm to souls in our time we can see that the infiltration of modernism into the Catholic community and even into the church leadership was well underway at the end of the nineteenth century and the introduction of the idea of long ages and attempts to reconcile those long ages with the traditional understanding of the sacred history of Genesis was was well underway at the end of the nineteenth century and after st. Pius the tenth it was pretty common in in seminaries to teach seminarians that geology had shown that there were actually millions of years of time that had elapsed from the beginning of creation until the creation of Adam and Eve and most of the professors who were teaching this when st. Maximilian Kolbe a was a seminarian we're doing their best to hold fast to the true faith they weren't trying to destroy the church from within or anything like that but the fact of the matter is that that that error the the acceptance of the idea that natural science had proven that the chronology derived from Holy Scripture as it had been understood in the church from the beginning was wrong it was a fatal mistake because while but there were scholars who were certainly trying to be faithful to the tradition of the church who accepted that view who thought that they could do so without doing any serious harm they were deceived because once scholars no matter how well-intentioned they may have been allowed that natural science contradict the constant understanding of God's Word as it had been handed down in the church from the beginning then there was no stopping once you once you accept that the church could have been wrong in her understanding of something that are important from God's Word as it was understood in the tradition of the church from the beginning and that was natural science that enlightened us and gave us the correct understanding it was inevitable that a whole host of doctrines and and traditional views would be called into question and ultimately thrown aside because the consensus view in in Natural Science no longer supported them and so we believe that if seen Maximilian Kolbe had had the opportunity to look at all of the evidence that has been amassed in the fields of astronomy and in geology and especially sedimentology which wasn't even really a science in the days when the geological time scale was developed that's pretty much been used up until the present time he would definitely have been the first to to want to uphold the traditional chronology of the universe as it was handed down to us but I feel it's important for me to mention these things because we do get criticized for having him as our secondary patron in spite of the fact that he did not see anything wrong with accommodating billions of years into his understanding of Genesis and of creation I came to young Earth Creationism week and a half ago I listened to a lecture by a priest on the sensus fidelium YouTube channel he may be familiar with it sure and he just made an offhand comment that the talk was about Mary how she's the Alpha and Omega of the church and he made an offhand comment about creationism how it's obviously true and evolution is obviously false because of the Immaculate Conception Adam was either immaculately conceived in the womb of a beast in which case the church has been wrong about the unique status of Mary as the Immaculate Conception or he was created by special creation and so in that offhand way he emboldened me this priest emboldened me to come out of the closet as a young earth creationist just based on this one theological argument that I had never heard before but which as soon as I heard it became stunningly obvious but that's just a comment I want you you can maybe respond to that but I have a couple of really quick questions one is what is the lay of the land in terms of old Earth Creationism young Earth Creationism intelligent design theistic evolution how many strands are there out there of these different sort of possibilities for monotheists to explain the creation of the human body that's the first part of the question and the second part is a statistical question how popular is some sort of special creation model as opposed to theistic evolution and then just sort of talk about the lay of the land if you would certainly will the main groups that one can identify within the Catholic community with regard to the origins of men in the universe are first of all theistic evolutionists antistick evolutionism comes in a variety of forms at one end of the spectrum you have the very popular view of dr. ken Miller at Brown University that God created some matter about 13.7 billion years ago and some natural laws and then that matter developed through the same kinds of material processes that are going on now into a human body and and then God inserted a soul into that body that's a very popular view at the other end of the theistic evolutionist spectrum you have the also very popular view of Father Tierra de Chardin who identifies God with the evolutionary process to the extent that it really becomes a kind of pantheism so it's God working through this evolutionary process making matter come alive and and turn into all the different kinds of creatures and then becoming man and then in his view evolution continues into the incarnation so that he says that even you've been Christ is saved by evolution and then evolution even continues after the coming of our Lord and it's it's still going on and it's going to take us into a new world order where we all share in the same religion and arrive at some kind of omega point in the future but between these two extreme positions on the theistic evolutionist spectrum everything and everything at the extremes and everything between the extremes denies two fundamental truths that are an essential part of the true Catholic doctrine of creation number one that God created a complete and harmonious universe for us in the beginning and because he created it for us when he finished creating Adam body and soul and Eve from Adam side he stopped creating new kinds of creatures every form of theistic evolution denies that truth and then they also deny the truth that the whole work of creation was supernatural there was no natural process employed by God in the creation of any of the original kinds of creatures once God had finished creating all the different kinds of creatures for us and once he had finished creating Adam and Eve yes then the natural order began what the doctors call the order of Providence and in that order of Providence which is what we're living in now because God is the supreme genius and because he programmed into our genome in into the genomes of all the different kinds of plants and animals the capacity to adapt to different environments we see a lot of variety we see new species coming into existence or new breeds of dogs for example but this is not evolution because each new species is actually less rich in genetic potential then his ancestors nothing new is being created and it's all downhill all the original creative work was completed in that first supernatural work of creation in the beginning and every form of theistic evolution ism denies these fundamental truths now another group that is not as numerous but it's still significant within the Catholic community is what is generally called progressive creationism and the progressive creationist rejects evolution but believes that the different kinds of creatures were created supernaturally over a long period of time and most progressive creationists embraer a is identical to the time scale that is endorsed by the theistic evolutionists the difference is that the progressive creationist does not believe that one kind of creature turns into another kind of creature through any kind of natural process he believes that God had to specially create the different kinds of creatures but he accepts the the geological time scale and the the whole chronology for the development of the galaxies in the solar system and the history of the earth that the theistic evolutionists have embraced the fatal flaw in the progressive creationist view is that whether they realize it or not and and and I don't think that they do or they wouldn't hold the view but they are mixing together the work of creation which was entirely supernatural and the natural order there the natural order of Providence and this is incoherent and it's a total deviation from the traditional mind of the church going back to the Apostles and Church Fathers and doctors who all distinguished between the work of creation as totally supernatural and finished with the creation of Adam and Eve and the natural order the order of Providence which only began when the work of creation was finished and the progressive creationists make this error usually in tandem with another serious error which is that many of them tried to reduce the global flood in the time of Noah to a local flood because they are accepting the fossil record as a record of hundreds of millions of years in which different kinds of creatures were created by God over these long periods of time and and this is a serious error because the if the fossil record is is a record not of life coming into existence but of life going out of existence it's a record of death on a global scale and what it's recording is the demise of a much greater variety of creatures than have existed on the earth since the time of the flood we have perhaps thirty five major categories of living things we call them phyla today but even evolutionary paleontologists will acknowledge that in the so called Cambrian explosion there were perhaps a hundred phyla on earth that we're losing diversity we're not gaining diversity which is exactly the opposite to what should be happening if evolution is true if evolution is true all the different kinds of plants and animals evolved from a few one celled organisms but we don't see that at all what we see is that there were many more major kind different kinds of living things and some kind of event occurred which wiped out most of them and left us with the record of the rapid burial of all different kinds of creatures all over the earth where we have Marines the remains of marine creatures mixed in with them with the remains of land dwelling creatures and really I mean without going into all the detail we have articles on our website one in particular on evidence for a global flood and it's important for our times which go into this in some detail but suffice it to say for now that this is one of the the real weaknesses of the progressive creationist position as it's usually articulated because usually they in rejecting the traditional biblical chronology that's derived from Holy Scripture as it was handed down to us from the Apostles fathers and doctors of the church they accept the evolutionary timescale but simply tried to hold on to the idea that God specially created the different kinds of creatures over these long periods of time but it ends up being a very incoherent position and ultimately it's it's it's unsustainable the intelligent design movement is a little bit different from either of these two groups that I've mentioned because the intelligent design movement isn't really so much a a Catholic movement or or a movement that's identified with any particular religious group it tries to take reason as far as it can go in determining whatever it can about the origins of man in the universe so the intelligent design movement has done a good job of showing that it is reasonable to believe that the different kinds of things that we see in the world were intelligently designed but it doesn't try to go beyond that and tell us much about the designer or when he designed these creatures or you know any number of things that we are told in our revelation so from our perspective in the coal-based Center while we appreciate a lot of the work that the intelligent design movement is done it's not something that we that we really promote because we have the whole truth that God has given to us God has given us a complete revelation of how he created the world and what happened in early history of the world you know so we don't want to shortchange our people or ourselves by giving them anything less than what God has given us so we just try to focus on the content of God's revelation in the sacred history of Genesis and to show how well it lines up with sound theology sound philosophy and sound natural science and how poorly the other views line up with the evidence in in these three areas now as far as the statistical breakdown of these various groups I'm not really in a position to to give you a good answer my answer would be impressionistic and not really very helpful but what I do think is helpful to say in response is that we look back at the history of the church we see that God doesn't really care about numbers he just cares about he just cares about the truth and upholding those who are faithful to the truth and he doesn't care if he has one a hundred or a thousand he's his whole power the whole power of God is going to be behind anybody that upholds the whole truth and we see numerous instances in the Old Testament and we see it in the history of the church since the the coming of our Lord that very small numbers were able to prevail against impossible odds in the Arian crisis we know that there were very very few bishops who held fast to the true doctrine of the divinity of Christ we know there was a council just a generation after the Council of Nicaea that was attended by more bishops than had attended the council of nicaea it was never it's proceedings were never ratified by the Pope so it's it's not a legitimate ecumenical council but the fact of the matter is it was attended by I think 400 bishops and they compromised on the dogma of the divinity of Christ and said that he was only of like substance with the father and that's when st. Jerome said the whole world and found itself Aryan so at that time there were very very few bishops like Saint Athanasius who were willing to to die for the true faith and yet a couple of generations later it was the party of Saint Athanasius that prevailed so today we could say there are probably very very few Catholics in the Western world who hold fast to the true doctrine of creation and the true understanding of the sacred history of Genesis as it was handed down to us and and articulated in in the Catechism of the Council of Trent for example but that doesn't matter because we know that when that triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary takes place that Our Lady of Fatima promised and and which promise was sealed by the greatest public miracles since the resurrection of our Lord this truth will be fully vindicated and restored as the the foundation of the faith so that when the the greatest evangelization in the history of Christianity takes place during the era of peace that she promised it's going to be 100% on the foundation of the true doctrine of creation we have absolutely no doubt about that so we just try to look at keep our eyes on our Lord and on his truth and and on the wonderful fruits that we see flowing from the acceptance of these truths by people all over the world because we've been all over the world and we see what the acceptance of this truth does for for souls especially for young people and it's absolutely wonderful it changes it totally transforms people's lives it renews their relationship with God everything about the way that they look at creation and and and that the Most Holy Trinity is transformed in the light of this truth and for us that's sufficient it doesn't matter how many people accept or don't accept I mean we want to do the best job that we can obviously but it's not really that important to us the important thing is that it is the truth it is what was handed down to us and we see the fruits in the lives of those who embrace it as the foundation of their faith if I have accepted special creation what have I accepted in terms of the age of the earth the age of the universe and all that sort of thing and what are the principles that I am de facto accepting by calling myself a young earth creationist one of the things that you are committing to when you when you embrace the traditional understanding of creation with the chronology derived from the Bible which tells us that the whole universe is less than 10,000 years and and even Origen who's not a church father but who represents kind of the extreme end of allegorical exegesis of the Bible even Origen says in one of his writings that from the writings of Moses we know that the whole world is much less than ten thousand years old so one of the things that you're that you're committing to is is at the beginning is an understanding about the beginning that God created everything in the beginning that he created it for you in our first parents in view of you we always say the Immaculate Conception and the Incarnation and that it is the original sin and the subsequent sins of mankind that brought not only human death but deformity disease men harming natural disasters a struggle for existence and all of these kinds of things into the world and one very important consequence of all of those things is that you are then committed to being a man of restoration rather than revolution and this is extremely important because if we look at the theistic evolutionary view of Tierra de chardin for example which is probably the most popular spirituality among consecrated religious in the Catholic Church in the Western world it's really a revolutionary view because for Tara de chardin as for dr. ken Miller and the rest of the theistic evolutionists and we would have to say for the progressive creationist as well no matter how much he might try to deny what we're saying there is no perfect first created world there is no perfect beginning perfection lies in the future in some Omega point some utopia some new world order that we're going to attain in the future and that that is a revolutionary view because it means that we have to go beyond what we received we have to really throw it aside in order to attain to this new thing which we've never experienced before we've never had it before but we're going to get there through this evolutionary process this is the antithesis of the true Christian attitude because our Lord Jesus Christ is the god man who restores and this is why st. Pius the tenth makes his model the line from Saint Paul's letter to the Ephesians to restore all things in Christ because we already had perfection in this world we had perfect harmony in this world and what our Lord has done by taking human nature suffering and dying for us rising again founding the holy church and then inviting us through Holy Baptism and the sacraments to become new creations in him because he's invited us to become his co-operators in a work of restoration not of revolution but of restoration and that is that is so beautiful because the the atmosphere in which we live especially in the United States is a revolutionary atmosphere where we take pride in the fact that we revolted against the ways of our fathers and and and founded something new and yet this is not the vision of Christianity is not the vision of the church or of our Lord his view is one of restoration and that is very very important I think a very important difference between the the mindset of those who hold fast to the traditional understanding of Genesis and the traditional doctrine of creation and those who embrace one of these other views are those who have other views removing themselves from the churches is a delicate question just sort of touch briefly on the peril of not believing in Paradise and Paradise Lost and all that certainly well first of all I think it's very important to understand that the first Vatican Council was convened when the false enlightenment philosophy that lies at the foundation of all of these evolutionary errors and alternative accounts of the origins of man in the universe to the true one we're already becoming quite widespread and were being accepted even by many Catholics but the work of the first Vatican Council was interrupted by the Masonic forces under Garibaldi and the work of that council has never been completed the Second Vatican Council really ought to have completed the work of the first Vatican Council but instead it it reinvented itself in a form different from every other Council in the history of the church because every other council did what Vatican 1 did it identified the principal errors of the time it condemned them and it affirmed the truths of the faith that were opposed to those errors now Vatican 1 did that to a certain extent and to the extent that it did so we have us in a certain sense the parameter within which we need to stay and one of the most important things that Vatican 1 did was to reaffirm verbatim the most important dogmatic decree on creation in the history of the church which was the firmament our decree of the fourth Lateran council in 1215 which defined against the alba gentian heretics that God created all things all the different kinds of angels and all the different kinds of corporeal creatures at once from the beginning of time and then men and we've done a lot of work on this over the last twenty years looking at how the greatest commentators on this council understood this decree people like st. Lawrence of Brindisi the last doctor of the church to comment on this decree and what we've been able to demonstrate is that they all understood this to mean that God created everything by Fiat supernaturally at the beginning of time and this would be compatible either with the six days of creation which was the overwhelming majority view of the church fathers and doctors or with the instantaneous creation of st. Augustine but it's completely incompatible with theistic evolution or progressive creation the old earth creationist view and the Vatican one then also handed down a very important in asthma and in this anathema the council father said that if anyone says that to the doctors of the faith and one of the doctrines that specifically mentions is creation a meaning must sometimes be attached according to the progress of science different from what the church understood understands and has understood let him be anathema now this is crude critical for every Catholic to understand because at the moment that that Anatomy was handed down in 1869 70 the gold standard for teaching and preaching the dogmas of the faith in the whole world was contained in the Roman catechism the catechism of the Council of Trent blessed Pope Pius the 9th who convened Vatican 1 mandated the Roman catechism for use in teaching the dogmas of the faith throughout the world and if you look up how the dogma of creation is define and in the roman catechism in its explanation of the first article of the creed it's clear God created all things in the beginning he spoke and they were made he commanded and they were created he explains this is how God created all the different kinds of plants this is how he created the different kinds of heavenly bodies this is how he created the different kinds of creatures of the sea of the air the land and this is how he creates Adam body and soul and the eve from Adam side and then he stops creating new kinds of creatures so if we understand this anathema correctly and that's a big if because probably 95% at least of Catholics in the world today don't even know that this Anatomy exists but once we understand this Anatomy we have an obligation to hold fast to what is contained in the Roman Catechism in his explanation of the dogma of creation because what this Anatomy tells us is there is nothing that we will ever learn in astronomy in geology in biology in any branch of Natural Science that will ever contradict the dogma of creation as it is defined in the Roman Catechism and that's the truth because we have world-class scientists in every area of Natural Science who can testify to the fact that there is nothing that we've learned in any area of natural science that is true that does in any way contradict the dogma of creation as it's explained in the Roman catechism so that's that's one very important part of the answer to your question but at the same time I think the ignorance of so many Catholics in many cases through no fault of their own because of the terrible catechesis that they received is a very big factor that has to be taken into account and this is why the work of the first Vatican Council has to be completed and we believe that in the era of peace that was promised by Our Lady of Fatima there has to be an ecumenical council that will complete the work of Vatican 1 and that that council will will anathematized evolution and it will reaffirm the doctrine of creation in a way that will settle this matter once and for all but because we are laypeople we're not the Magisterium of the church it's not our place to be calling people heretics if they you know if they deviate from from the traditional doctrine we see our role as being much more modest we're just trying first of all to what was handed down to us because that's our responsibility and secondly we're trying to show that this traditional doc has summarized so beautifully in the Roman catechism is one hundred percent in harmony with sound theology sound philosophy and sound natural science so there is absolutely no reason to call it into question and then we look to the church leadership to provide that definitive judgment against the errors of post to this traditional doctrine as soon as possible the father of lies has a certain strategy that he adopted in the garden and he continues to use the same strategy over and over again and that is to sow doubt in the mind of the faithful with regard to the Word of God and then having created that atmosphere of doubt to to distort the Word of God distort the understanding of the Word of God so that he can then bring us to the next step which is to pass judgment upon the Word of God as a pretext for disobeying the Word of God he did all of those things with Eve Eve received the Word of God through her husband because God created man first to be the spiritual head of his wife and children and of the whole human family so God did not reveal the commandment not to eat the food of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil directly to Eve she had to receive it through Adam and this by the way is the only sound basis upon which to defend a male-only priesthood to to defend the male-only priesthood by saying that our lord only chose men to be his apostles and disciples which is what most faithful Catholics will say to those who want to be open to the possibility of women priests is is not very convincing because they can always say that that was just the the cultural context in which our Lord became men and he had to adapt himself to that context but we've evolved into a new context so there's really no reason why in this context we shouldn't be open to women priests the only way to really give a coherent defense of the male-only priesthood is to go back to the beginning because the beginning is always the foundation for everything and right in the beginning we have the male only priesthood because Adam is created first to be a priest to his wife and to the whole human family he receives the Word of God she has to receive it through her husband and the the devil knows that it's going to be easier for him to work on her because of that fact and so first he tries to sow doubt in her mind about it then he distorts what God actually told Adam as it was transmitted to her and then that puts her in the position where she can pass judgment on it it's not reasonable it's not fair and then that makes it very easy for her to disobey God's Word and that's what he does to us over and over and over again so yes he's the one that has come up with all the alternatives to God's revelation and all those alternatives in one form or another so doubt distort what God actually revealed lead us to judge it it's not reasonable it doesn't line up with science I can't accept it and then no matter how much we might try to fight against it it's going to lead us into disobedience now if you want to look at some of the most catastrophic consequences rejecting the Word of God in Genesis as it was handed down to us in the church we can look at the clergy abuse because when you look to the root of the clergy abuse that's been exposed in the mass media now for four decades and is obviously being exposed more and more all the time it's not what it's not what we hear it's not what most church leaders are talking about it goes right back to the attack on the sacred history of Genesis because way back in the 20s and 30s and 40s we had seminary professors teaching the future bishops and priests Genesis is a myth science has enlightened us evolutions of fact and that is what made though so many not all but so many of those future bishops and priests lose that reverence that they ought to have had for the church as an infallible teacher for the tradition of the church for the Holy Scriptures as the inerrant Word of God and which then gave them an inordinate respect for human science to the point where so many of the church leaders the people who were charged the formation of future priests and bishops actually taught the future bishops and priests of the church that natural science is really the ultimate guarantor the ultimate judge of what is true and what is not in our faith so we had for example in the United States we had a father cosmic who was the rector of a seminary at the height of the clergy abuse that was going on here who published an article in the Catholic the journal of the Catholic theological Society of America and his conclusion was that the empirical scientists have not identified any sexual expression that can be said to be in a value free way harmful to a full human existence so here we have rector of a seminary telling future priests and bishops there's really nothing you can do in the sexual realm that's really harmful science has shown us that and in his book science Trump's God's word and the tradition of the church and the teaching of the Magisterium as it's been handed down from the Apostles that's the complete inversion of the right order because the right order is theology is the queen of the sciences philosophy as her handmaid and they sit in judgment on the other Sciences and keep them within their proper boundaries but so many of our church leaders and so many of those who are charged with the formation of future bishops and priests invert that order and they hold up the empirical sciences as the ultimate source of truth and as the ones that tell us which parts of Scripture and which parts of our tradition and Magisterial teaching we're going to hold on to in which we're going to abandon as being antiquated and out of step and out of harmony with the findings of modern science and that's really a root of the whole clergy abuse Cataclysm because the devil has always been intent on subjecting priests and consecrated souls to temptations against purity that's nothing new what's new is we never had before in the history of the church we never had a quote/unquote scientific excuse for giving in to those temptations and we have that now big time and when we've had it for 60 70 80 years and it all focuses on attacking the truth of the sacred history of Genesis and replacing it with the evolutionary mythology and the pseudoscience that goes along with it so until we go to the root and eradicate this evolutionary mythology and the pseudoscience that goes with it and store the true doctrine of creation and the sacred history of Genesis as the true foundation of our faith we are only going to be putting band-aids over these problems we are not going to really correct them at the root but on a positive note as soon as we do reject that evolutionary mythology and the pseudoscience that goes with it and as soon as we do put the right foundation back in the in place we can turn things around very quickly I've literally seen schools where pastors invited us in and allowed us to spend some time with all of the students and teachers in the school and we had experience in one school where the pastor was one of the exorcists of the diocese and he had been involved in the ministry of exorcism for a very long time and after three visits to the parish including two full days in the school with all of the students and teachers he said to me he said it's as if a dark cloud has been lifted from my parish and it's so true because this evolutionary miasma is is so stifling to the spiritual life and when it's removed and you put this good foundation in place it's so so powerful and and and the effects are seen so quickly so as bad as things seemed we were convinced that all we need to do is to go back to teaching the whole truth of the faith on the on the right foundation and we can turn things around very very quickly when Our Lady of Fatima told us what we needed to do to to turn things around and to assure in an ear of peace that the world has really never seen since the fall of Adam and Eve the first thing that she promised would take place that would begin this total transformation of the whole world was the triumph of her immaculate heart and the thing that's always impressed me about that is that the other things she mentions the consecration of Russia which which we believe has not taken place because it's simply a matter of fact that no pope has consecrated russia by name to the Immaculate Heart of Mary but the consecration of Russia the conversion of Russia these are things that are to assert to a certain extent especially the consecration there there are external things but the triumphal for Immaculate Heart is something that's totally interior and so what she seems to be telling us is that before we can have the external manifestation of God's will that will usher in the conversion of Russia and this amazing era of peace and the greatest evangelization the world has ever seen there has to be that interior triumph and that interior triumph has to involve us living our consecration to our Lord Jesus Christ through the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the only way we can do that is by being 100% focused on our Lord in in the Blessed Sacrament because one of the things we can see when we look at some of the great mystical saints of the 20th century into the 21st century is that again and again there's a certain theme that runs through their lives and writings even though many of these people like Saint Faustina for example in Poland or a venerable Conchita de Armida in Mexico or blessed in Abell LJ a in country in Canada they didn't know each other and yet there's this commonality in their mystical writings which is very powerful and and a theme that runs through all of them is this idea of becoming a living Eucharist a living host and this for us is inseparable from the fulfillment of Our Lady of Fatima's requests for that we live our consecration to our Lord Jesus Christ through her Immaculate Heart for the same intention that he has and that's when enough of us are doing that that will constitute the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary and that's what will bring down the graces that are necessary for the consecration of Russia by name the conversion of Russia and the assuring in of the era of peace and the greatest evangelization the world has ever seen hmm do you have enemies in the hierarchy like bishops that oppose you and do you have friends in the hierarchy meaning bishops that are very much supportive of your work I don't know who our enemies are I mean certainly there are many church leaders who think that we're an embarrassment to the church so I don't know if they're if they're they would consider us enemies or just annoying fools but as far as supporters yes we have a number of wonderful bishops who are very supportive for example a bishop a tenacious Snider one of the greatest bishops in the church today is a very strong supporter of the work of the coal-based Center just to name one okay on a personal note I'm very very very cautious against the right wing of the church it's easy to see people getting pulled out of the church on the Left that's easy to see but on the right I think it's a little bit more subtle so I'm very very cautious about that you probably identify as a traditional Catholic and so I I'm a bit worried about that but do you just address my concern certainly I think your your concern is legitimate and the way that I would respond is to say that the church is not an institution the church is the Immaculate Bride of Christ she's alive and in order to be part of this living mystical body of Christ we have to be in communion with the leaders appointed by God so I do agree with you that it's a terrible temptation to break away from the leadership appointed by God even when it's apparent that the leadership is not following the true teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ and and not governing the church properly we should never obey to the extent of sinning in obedience to an order from somebody in lawful authority but we should obey them in everything but sin and my experience has been that those who are in communion with bishops appointed by the Pope are more free and more successful in teaching the whole truth of the faith including the true doctrine of creation that was handed down to us from the apostles that then those who break away and I could give I don't think it would be constructive but I mean I can think of very clear examples of some groups that broke away from the Pope and the bishops appointed by him to be free to teach the whole Catholic faith as it was handed down but what's happened to them is that that in spite of themselves they've had to reconstitute themselves as a kind of alternative Magisterium in in doing so they've actually limited their own priests and members and kept them from being able to proclaim the whole truth as freely as we can who are in communion with the Pope and the bishops appointed by him so I agree with you I think it's very important to remain in communion with the Pope and the bishops appointed by him and to be obedient to them and everything but sin and that is the only way we remain a part of this living mystical body of Christ nice what can the faithful Catholic do among a growing body of hardcore atheists what can we do and leave us if you would just with a positive message something hopeful from your Catholic perspective please certainly well the reality is that only the grace of God can make a person receptive to the gift of faith which is something supernatural so the greatest thing we can do for all of our brothers and sisters is to to pray and sacrifice for them that they will receive this supernatural gift of faith that that comes from God and I'm sure that in the time to come your listeners will receive some very special graces from God which they will not be able to deny just as I was raised with no prayer no Bible no church none of those things I was raised in evolution believing secular humanist but God did things in my life which were absolutely undeniable and these kinds of graces the thing will become more common because there's a principle that God follows in that he is a loving God and that is found in the letter to the Romans chapter 5 verse 20 where sin abounded grace abounded all the more so the more there's error the more there is the denial of God the more there's the denial of the truth of creation the more he's going to pour out his grace superabundant so everybody is going to have a chance to see the truth and when you catch a glimpse of the love that God has for you it's undeniable and it is irresistible because I don't care who you are you are looking for love and you're looking for love that is absolutely true and you will not find that anywhere except in God and in those who are full of the love of God that he has put into their hearts now one of the things that I think is is very helpful for everybody to ponder is the reality that I think everybody can agree upon whether they're a theistic evolutionists or people who believe in in God's revelation in Genesis and that is that all living things are full of very sophisticated coded information Bill Gates says that the information in our DNA is much more sophisticated than anything that Microsoft has been able to develop it's simply a fact that in all living things we have coded information in multiple languages it's a fact that in living things we find coded information which has a specific meaning when it's read in one direction and gives specific directions to molecular machines to perform certain kinds of functions and yet the same information in another language can be read in the opposite direction and gives a different set of instructions so one thing that I would invite the atheists and the audience to contemplate as just a little fun project since we know that living things that allegedly evolved without any kind of Creator through the same kinds of material processes that are going on now developed this very complex coded information that can be read backwards and forwards to give two different meaningful sets of instructions here's just a simple fun project that any he could do and that has just come up with a sentence of just three or four words three words would do but it has to make sense in one language going from left to right and the same letters have to make sense in a different language going from right to left now the reason I say this should be fun is because we're all intelligent and supposedly all of this coded information arose in plants and animals and human beings through an unguided natural process which wasn't intelligent so it shouldn't be too difficult for us who are intelligent to be able to come up with just a three or four word sentence where in one language it will have a meaning going from left to right and then in a different language will also have a an intelligible meaning going from right to left I I suggest that that fun project could be a good way to begin a fruitful dialogue as to whether it is actually reasonable to believe that all the different kinds of living things with all of this very complex coded information that tells marvelous molecular machines in ourselves how to put amino acids together to build the tissues and building blocks of our bodies you know whether it's really reasonable to believe that this came about through a material process rather than through an act of creation by a super intelligent agent that's my suggestion for a fun project that could stimulate the all you got to do is all you got to do is