Catholic vs. Atheist - 2018-06-29 - Russell Lewis

Author Recorded Friday June 29th, 2018

There are 47 episodes in the Versus:Atheist series.

Recorded February 9th, 2019

Catholic vs. Atheist - 2019-02-09 - Greg

Recorded September 11th, 2016

Catholic vs. Atheist - 2016-09-11 - Renaud

I have been friends with Russell for about a decade now. He is a sweet guy, and one of the few friends with whom I can discuss almost anythingeven religion. In this chat we discuss, sex, death, free-will, and the first-cause proof of God's existence.


Catholic vs. Atheist - 2018-06-29 - Russell Lewis

Author Recorded July 30th, 2016

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hi my name is Russell Lewis and you are listening to Catholic versus atheist so just tell us a little bit about yourself if you would please who you are what you believe in how he came to the show so I'm originally from the UK I live in Montreal Canada right now this is how I met you David and I've been here for 10 years now I met a girl I met another girl and then I met another girl and that's whatever she ended up with me being here I'm atheist I don't believe in technically anything as opposed to your belief where you definitely believe in something yeah can you talk a little bit about your childhood when we first introduced to the idea that some other people do believe in God and they have religion in the UK there's the Church of England and my mother was definitely a believer she eventually moved to the US like down in Tampa and she married a guy and then they're now part of the church and has a lot of her life is part of the church Church Irving now how angry Mexican is in Tampa so it's the Church of Tampa Church temper is he was that one where they have like lots of like clapping and wrestle stuff down there evangelical I think is evangelical but like it's the one where like there's a big band behind them and they clap a lot and they sing a lot and it's all it's so very fun as opposed to the way I kind of see the normal church which is quite right I liken it is that my mom whenever I go and see her she's always like you should come to the church you should come visit us and see what we're doing and every time I go there's like I will do that if you don't go at 6:00 in the morning she always goes the sixties of working and everybody works for us so back when I was young a man we would go to the charity ringman Church and she would take me there and and it was nice I mean like in there we'll go every Sunday morning and I can only remember bits of it and I remember there was a point where I decided I didn't want to have to go anymore and she was okay with that and she said okay fine you made your choice you don't have to go anymore and I stopped going it was kind of weird like and whenever there was like a church ceremony afterwards and I always feel uncomfortable going into a church I think I've made in my mind this decision I didn't want to be associated with this so I didn't go anymore when you were very young were there prayers at mealtime work before bed do you remember any of that already my dad accepted that my mother's beliefs but never try to impose on his kids so when it came to Meal Time the food was served and you ate I had two older brothers like if I stopped to pray the food will be gone right so we decided not to observe any of those customs because if I did I would just get whatever no one else wanted you could always pray afterwards thank God that I managed you kid like that afterwards I've got a full stomach and we're gonna play computer games so a guy was did you have any sort of philosophical impulses as a teenager my teenage years is a little obscure in terms of thinking about God or thinking about like the villagers side of things it never really entered my mind because why would it I was too busy having fun right and especially after my mother had given the opportunity to not have to think about anymore other than me have you met anyone that went from atheist to theist now David you're quite a unique person when it comes this like you know I remember when I first met you and I don't know how much you talked about in the past but you were you were the least likely person I was expecting to go down this path you seemed smartin and I still think you are very smart very nice very friendly humane good person tremendously so but like for me when it comes to religion I always I always assumed it was gonna be something that people fell into that had no other option but your life was okay I mean it seemed to be to me at least you've always been like a very very soft thing to throw jokes at because you'll never like attack back and you'll always like be friendly and accepting of everything I do it makes it really hard to be mean so I've always struggled and I've always respected that about your beliefs as well yeah just to address what you said I mean there's a key component to conversion which is recognizing that you are desperate you're desperately in need of a savior that did happen to me if you haven't seen that desperation in yourself yet it's just a matter of time until you see it hopefully it won't be too late when you do see it but a lot of people tend to live on the surface and just live from pleasure to pleasure and then they never need to feel that desperation but I think it's always there when I see someone go into it like I'm always assuming he's like why would they do that what's there for them because I mean you may think God speaks you but in my personal opinion I I just think that you think that God speaks you right like there's a strong intellectual component to monotheism and in particular Catholicism that forces the thinking person person actually thinks about fundamental questions of ontology and epistemology it forces that thinking person to accept the existence of God and to see how desperate we are and there are many atheist that I've talked to that I've shown the intellectual proofs of God's existence and they still don't see it I don't think you tell me about they're sure the proof that I like to use is the uncaused first cause so every natural effect has a cause if you follow that chain of cause and effect back to the beginning you don't have a big bang yeah the big bang or any other weird variation on the Big Bang like multiverses bubble over universes okay these sorts of things mmm every universe needs a beginning so if we go back in the chain of cause and effect we have necessarily a first cause which is necessarily supernatural it's not naturally supernatural because if it's a natural cause then we'll just need to ask well what caused that natural cause we need a supernatural first cause that's my god you are forced by logic to acknowledge my god if you're honest with yourself and you look at the first cause argument okay maybe we should talk about the pro-life movement are you pro-life I am I'm pro-choice completely okay what's your reasoning what's your reasoning my reasoning is that there's a hierarchy of rights and the right to choice depends necessarily and logically on your right to exist if you don't exist you have no choice so you need to live before you choose so if you kill the person in the womb you've removed their life and their right to choose so the right to life has been violated and by doing that you've denied them the right to choice the right to Liberty the right to private property all the other rights depend on the right to life um isn't that the ascension at that point until they become conscious as I'm asleep I say when you're asleep I can kill you netbook I want I want I once was not asleep when the sperm gets into the egg and it doesn't make you alive that just means of the sperms into the egg it takes a few more months before you become a thing like if you take whatever's in the womb out of the womb anywhere up to like seven months before that things gonna die you'll die outside the womb of the Earth's atmosphere too right we can't just take you overdose of anything ever everything has a dependency on certain conditions for life let me ask you a simple question if you're a farmer and you've planted a bunch of seeds under the earth okay and I go and I kill each and every one of those seeds and you say hey you killed my apple trees I said no I didn't I just killed potential apple trees because they hadn't fulfilled their potential to be apple trees they haven't sprouted and they haven't produced any fruit and they can't survive in the sunshine okay you'd still be angry State look you killed my trees because they're potential trees those seeds everything livelihood but maybe when it comes to abortion like in there okay put this way there's a lot of people in this world who shouldn't be parents the opportunity for a life should be based on the opportunity they're gonna get when they get out the womb quality of life yeah cause like you know if you have a junkie who's gonna end up killing themselves in two years time because they're having a bad time I should those people have children and your view it seems like possibly should even though that child is gonna have a destructive life now let's find it very interesting when it comes to the Catholic view of childhood okay so we're gonna like protect the rights of humans but soon as they come home by golly we do not care about many more right yeah it's like you have you carry that child through what makes you think that the church doesn't care about poor people but I think that people like you do I didn't this everything the church as a whole does there's a reason why I like you even though you have your views exacting that I think they're true and I think your your beliefs are true but when it comes to the Catholic Church I think they're fraud tremendous evil and it makes it really hard for me to respect them so what do you think about human sexuality what is the point and purpose of human sexuality I mean like in your view I'm guessing it's related to procreation in my view it's related to enjoying life it's one of life's experiences like sex gives someone the option of liking they're having a nice moment how long does the high lasts or the happiness or the contentment will last I mean like I know if your podcast is related to this but since you come you have a like you know about minutes of like depression and like no self regret and then you're fighting again because that's the hormones release into your body you have that that thing go on have you ever said no to sex offer for sex yes of course yeah I mean it's always a choice like you know just climb a dude doesn't mean that I have the opportunity I'd say no yeah so what do you think about the family the idea of one man one woman raising children in a stable situation you think that's good for society I think what's good for society is a stable environment doesn't matter if it's to men to women men and women as long as like the child has a statement vironment where they can develop naturally I just want the child to have a good upbringing a happy one loving mom one where the child is nurtured they're looked after that's what I'm looking for if everything else is equal like the same amount of love and care and affection and goodness and support and and everything if everything else is equal in all those regards and the only difference is that you have the two natural biological parents versus same-sex parents do you think that one is better than the other no I think two loving parents is to love environments in that added fact of having them being the two biologically doesn't add anything doesn't have anything if their biological great if they don't have the option of being magical and that's fine as well see two loving people yeah giving you the best opportunity they have in life yeah and giving you everything given all of that love and support and goodness I think it's very obvious that it's better to have your parents be your biological parents all of the flaws equal then all things being equal yes I agree if they abide ajikko one that's the best option because it makes it easier the child as well but God if it's an option between that and anything else give it to loving people who look after that child yeah yeah we've talked about life but what about death what is the best-case scenario for you at death what are you expecting really hoping for what's the best-case scenario um I am hoping for it be painless and surrounded by people I love okay but then what after you die there is nothing up for a day you're confident about that listen like if there is that's great but like I'm not my mommy great though that's the problem for me I'm not worried about it because I didn't believe it's true so it's imagine for one second that like the afterlife is true so you end up in heaven and you have the same body no it'll be a glorified body there's no suffering there's no illness there's no injustice there's no ugliness it's all good do you guys believe that yeah good for me that'd sound ridiculous because everything that you love about your life everything that you can talk about that you value and love about your life whether it's pleasure whether it's food sex drugs rock and all whatever it is it's all in God God's a source of all of that and it's but why but we don't have to be the source of that now I can touch I can throw you yeah I know right yeah that's the thing this this here yeah it's a thing yeah where's like everything you talk about isn't it has a command to the principle that an effect cannot be greater than its cause so the reason I started this interview by talking about the first cause II uncaused cause he is the source of every perfection and every good that you prepay here that why does he have to be that like in there why he cuz of cause and effect because an effect cannot be greater than its cause I probably believe what effect this God had the universe the physical universe if you believe in science if you believe in cause and effect then every state of affairs is the logical consequence of the previous state of affairs and so on and so on back to the beginning and we know there's a first cause and we know that that first cause necessarily is supernatural and we know that that first cause is necessarily infinite in every perfection because an effect cannot be more perfect or greater than its cause they with respect that doesn't really mean much like you know when you when it comes to deny it is to say that effect can be greater than its cause which is completely absurd you're undermining natural science by saying that God is necessary he's the only necessary being and he's the source of every perfection he's infinite and I'm for perfection and he's identical with all of his attributes he is justice he is love he is goodness he is beauty what defines God God is the being whose essence is existence that means he is wealth existent right because we need a first cause that is self existent what you do nunim if you're rational and you think about cause and a week I'll be purely talking about the Big Bang rain like today so even if the Big Bang Theory is wrong am i hey whatever possible universe we live in physical universe right if the coefficient of expansion is greater than zero things go from order to disorder naturally spontaneously disorder is more probable than order so when you clean up your apartment okay you're going from disorder to order but that takes work that takes energy and eventually you're going to lose that battle like you will decay and you will fall apart and your house unless someone else come does reverse entropy on it it's gonna go towards entropy it's gonna get Messier spontaneously it takes work to reverse the entropy entropy is going to bring our universe to Hiba yeah fine but that's got nothing to go it sure does how this is a universe where entropy is the case and entropy is the case therefore the expansion coefficient is greater than zero these big waves in magazines basically it's a hard science if you look at the hard science of cosmology you will understand that there is necessarily a beginning to the universe no matter what configuration in the universe has even if yep even if the Big Bang is not that gave you is there's a beginning and in order for that beginning to have its genesis so to speak it's have to have its beginning we need a cause which is in and of itself not material not physical not contingent it has to be absolutely sovereign and spiritual and it has two minute in every perfection okay let's say that you're right and there are only natural causes which are material okay that first natural cause what caused it your stomach at night you know we do know logically can something come from nothing the answer is no we know that with certainty that we do know was before the beginning well there's nothing before in time but logically planned we don't know that and this be honest here there is no logical proof like I'm logical my entire existence is based on logic my job is based on logic and there is no logic let's talk about freewill do you mind because this will test your claim that you're very logical person do you believe that you are free they have free will to make free choices yes or no yes okay so when you make those free choices is it violating the natural laws of say physics chemistry biology or any other natural science no so everything is determined everything every choice you make is determined so your celly determine where is the freedom why can I just make a choice and the choice the choice why does it have to be a cause it wants do you believe in natural cause and effect yes or no yes okay so there's a cause for every choice you make do you believe that the choices you make are caused or on cause and where is the choice being made is it being made in your mind yeah I guess and where does the mind reside does it reside in your brain in your nervous system yes I hate but rap down in your like does it involve the biological and chemical components in your brain in your nervous system as far as them away yes okay so are those caused or uncaused events that are making your choice for you neither they are your brain making logical choices based on whatever's put in whatever it has there and do those choices violate the laws of nature yes or no and I should head no if you're honest with yourself you'll realize that either you live in a deterministic atheistic universe or there's the supernatural which allows you to make the widely supernatural because if it's natural then either it's completely determined because it follows and obeys the natural laws right or if a natural effect does not have a natural cause you've undermined science period if you're a materialist and if you believe in cause and effect and you believe in science and respect the scientific method then you know that when something happens the scientist won't just say there's no reason for that there's always a sufficient reason this is the principle of society scientists don't have to know what the reason is they just hope that you can be proven again oh there's a bunch of stuff where scientists will approve something do you know the difference between knowing something in detail and knowing in principle for example do you know how many grains of sand on planet Earth yesterday yeah well you don't but you do know that there's a certain number of grains of sand on earth depending on the definition of what a grain of sand is right there's a distinction to be made between knowing all the facts about the grains of sand on earth and just acknowledging the fact that there are grains of sand on it yes believe it God exists no like you know this is spiritual like spaghetti monster and say you believe in spaghetti mass if he's infinite in every perfection and he's pure spirit and he's pure actual doesn't necessarily mean you're just believing anything no I can if you believe this became answer exists dude it's made up to Mach 11 you know but only if the spaghetti monster corresponds exactly with all the attributes of my God if he doesn't then it's different right is it material if so it's not God is it finite if so it's not God is it made out of spaghetti if so it's not God you know okay so that's very fun Marie so we've had fun but at the end of my interviews I always asked my guest just to talk directly to the audience okay what would you say to anyone that might be out there listening right now you know I am not religious and I believe in God but I same time I them dislike people who didn't even good I actually kind of respect and feel kind of bit jealous of people who do it's kind of nice to think that you know maybe there is is like once you die you may want to have no once you die you you you get to do something better and I have that which is a little bit sad sometimes for me but same time I've kind of learned to accept that so in terms of my message to people like in there so you have a problem you need to find someone who will talk to you and listen to your problems and help you through that it may be through religion it may be through something else but going to church is not going to fix your issues all stop all you got to do is all you got to do got to do

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