Catholic vs. Catholic - 2017-10-22 - Antonio

Author Recorded Sunday October 22nd, 2017

There are 45 episodes in the Versus:Catholic series.

Recorded September 13th, 2017

Catholic vs. Catholic - 2017-09-13 - Thomas

Antonio is the third person I have interviewed as a result of my group-email to the websites listed on the Wiki page on Sedevacantism. He runs the website. We spoke about his winding journey into the Catholic Church, and, ultimately, into Sedevacantism. • Support the CVS Podcast: • Be a guest on a livestream:

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These YouTube transcripts are generated automatically and are therefore unformatted and replete with errors.
hi my name is Antonio and you're listening to Catholic versus Catholic tell us a little bit about yourself if you would please who you are what you believe and how you came to believe it well I'm a Roman Catholic and not happen to be a said of a contest that is someone who believes the papacy has come the vacant someone who believes the office of the papacy exists I'm not the Orthodox but I've just holds that currently there isn't it the current occupant of it so I don't consider Francis to be the true Pope okay and how did you come to their belief can you talk a little bit about your childhood okay well I'm actually Italian I got both passports Italian and British and although my father's baptized in Catholic Church and when he's at age six I was not raised in the Catholic faith and my father married outside of the Catholic Church and subsequently divorced that's not advised marriage as far as the Catholic Church is concerned both pre-vatican to impose vatican ii but so wasn't baptized when i was a child or baby I attended a local Church of England so-called primary school and then I went to a secular secondary school when I was in year nine in secondary school and I don't know she's array actually wishes so with being twelve thirteen at a time we did their history about him of the eighth about the Tudors and the Stewart's and I learned that Catholics had their math in Latin and problems put it into English but they still have mass in Latin today you said though they might have occasionally got them but it's in English today and so then when I was 1516 I've got involved with evangelical Protestantism you know looking one of what happens after death and I actually watched the satellite television channels like such as God TV and as all stuff and amongst the satellite television channels there was a wtn and anyway I still got involved with pasta jism not realizing its proximate ISM just on the pretenses Christianity and I got sort of track of the happy-clappy music you know and the electric guitars the drums but I saw something EWTN I saw something in the Catholic Church and this is about 2005 john paul ii was not very well the past wave remember right the day was the 2nd of april 2005 and for some reason maybe because my town heritage I felt so closely connected to the Catholic Church when he died and I watched his funeral and the election of benedict xvi and all the you know tuition coverage leading up to his death and the whole period from when he was sort of badly healed right until after Bendix xvi was installed and supposedly the Pope and still got involved with evangelical Protestantism and approached the local with Evangelical Protestant pastor to discuss the possibility of baptism sorry I naturally had the Catholic belief in original sin that Batson is necessary for salvation and funnily enough my knowledge of that came from Ayari tutor at my secular school what sorry religious education it's sometimes called RS religious studies and this might surprise you my re teacher in the year 10 here is actually Jewish I'm not sure he's practicing but he did talk about his Judaism as well and that's interesting by I've actually had the idea that born-again is a game baptized anyway so pros one local evangelical president pastor well started going to not realizing his process didn't about being baptized and he actually suggested to me that because I had so much he wasn't anti-catholic he wasn't like you'll go to hell he joined the Catholic Church they're very well involved and humanity in Winslow between the Anglicans the evangelicals and the nervous although Catholics and so he actually recommended I should speak the local Catholic priests first to see if my batson would be recognized or what could be done so it really caught the problem so what if I if he baptized me oh I see so he understood that you were on your way into Catholicism but he was going to perform the baptism for you is that what's happening that's correct potentially I wanted to change my way into Catholicism and if I'm funny enough I'm not 16 I had this idea that I'm gonna become a Protestant pastor them you'll become a Catholic priest nothing about getting married by the way I don't know ever that applied for Evangelical Protestant pastors the various dispensation so that you have in the modern church I know if you're an Anglican or Lutheran then and your marriage you can even though that your those are invalid according to the modern church is concerned you're allowed to become a Catholic priest you know considering that you know your orders were invalid in the first place it's kind of bit strange although I have heard somewhere else that apparently they had married priests and the Catholic Church in the nineteen forties who owned converts for magnetism well there still are married priests in the Catholic Church just not in the western part of the church they're in the eastern part of the Catholic Church right that that's always been the case of course the same of the Orthodox as well yeah so that's a matter of discipline that could change tomorrow the Pope tomorrow could say priestly celibacy is out the window I don't think he'll do it but he could allow priests to marry tomorrow in the West if he wanted to yeah I mean I think his priority at the moment is trying to push for women deacons and then maybe he might get married priests as a norm in there in the Western Church before he gets women priests possibly but you already have in the modern nose although church married deacons so you know naturally next thing is women deacons yeah there were historically there were deaconesses I don't know what the role was exactly of the Deaconess but there is a historical precedent for that in the Catholic Church supposedly although I hear that apparently the purpose of them was to assist in Baptists it was in the early church because of reasons of modesty for women baptisms yeah so where did you go from there did the Protestant minister administer a baptism to you he actually advised me to speak to my local Catholic Novus Ordo priest and I eventually saw him and we sat down and I told him I might become Catholic a later day and he wasn't interested in me becoming Catholic no you know he was just disinterested and so but he said yes if he gets her baptized by was Evangelical Protestant pastor then he'll be recognized in the Catholic Church and so I went ahead and I got on the 19th of March 2006 at the age of 17 I was baptized while I found out to being violently mine Evangelical Protestant pastor by Phil immersion you know evangelical Protestants relics it few years later in detail don't actually believe that BAPS are necessary for the remission of original sin they believe that it's basically symbolic and the thing about to stay out of billions so it donald's come on but I think I might offer being a bit more skeptical about it if they told me from the outset it was Protestant ray so what happened after that ostensibly baptism well two days later after my baptism I went to the nearby town of Aylesbury in Buckinghamshire where I was studying at the college the BTech IT course and I knew this certain local Baptist preacher who I've met previously and I showed him photographs of my baptism and I told him it took so long because I had to make sure the bathroom would be recognized in the Catholic Church and then that's when my relationship with whom changed completely he told me all sorts of stuff you know Catholics worship Mary Our Lady the Eucharist is blasphemy Christ died once for sin he told me that he believed john paul ii wasn't here or did he scare you away from the catholic church I was a bit scared I have to say but I went home that day and I I first called up my local Catholic novus ordo priest that advised me to get anyone's etiquette Protestant baptism and I told him what the Baptist preacher has told to me they said but what he says is complete nonsense the best advice I can give you is to stay away from him and I actually follow that advice so I actually run Anglican vicar up because I knew he would still be halfway between the evangelicals and the Catholics and he told me there were some strange Baptist churches here and there he was generally quite helpful who sort more that's neutral but and I also finally spoke to my local Indian Protestant party who did the baptism and he suggested out come down for a chat with him which I did that's a maybe a month or two later and he told me about how it went from the early church in Jerusalem and you had the Orthodox and knee the cap regen and he had the Martin Luther and you had the Protestants and how old branched off from there and he said that what while they don't believe in the thing that Catholics go to hell they do agree with some of what this Baptist preacher was saying and he advised that I'll have to even go one I can't be both I'll have to go one way or the other eventually and I continued to research this issue for many many months in fact I put more effort into this and my BTech course at ellsbury college because it is eternal salvation and I came across various things such as in in the Bible it says this is my body this is my blood not this represents my body Saint Luke 1:28 says hail thou highly favored the Lord is with thee blessed art thou amongst women but at the the penny dropped when I came across on YouTube this video by the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America called understanding the Roman Catholic Church they interviewed Roman Catholics in st. Peter's Square and they often why the Catholic and there's this one Catholic bishop who says why he said he said I firmly believe that when Jesus said thou art Peter and upon this rock he bent it and this is the rock of Peter and the Catholic Church has this continuity all the way back to the time of Christ and course then I'll research that you know in Matthew 16:18 thou art Peter and upon this rock I build my church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it I'll give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven of whatever thou shalt battambang have some vowels in heaven anyways that was awesome they just to find anything in everything I already knew from what I saw in the media around the time the death of john paul ii and election appendix xvi that the pope was a successor of st. Peter and here I've got our Lord Jesus Christ establishing the papacy upon st. Peter in the Bible so then I decided right I'm going to move out this evangelical thing just be Catholic I've stopped being involved that and I just went to the Sunday morning Mass at the Catholic Church did that for a few months until the 14th of January 2007 I was formerly received in supporting Catholic Church did you our CIA no I didn't our parish was so small I just had a few conversations of the priest and he did give me much instruction he gave me a couple books to read and that was it do you ever which books I remember want one of them how to survive being married to a Catholic and had a lot of illustrations did a lot of humorous illustrations in fact six months ago I bought myself a couple of those books off eBay for a few pounds just to look at the funny illustrations I mean I'm going freedom pen and I'm crossing things out like basket all this sort of stuff and looking for heresies in him that Alberta can you think of an example I seen most you can actually yeah the thing it says it's okay to attend the post no service okay that's not that's not okay in tradition you can attend it for a wedding or funeral but you can't be involved you can't say Amen xx prayers you can't see any of the hymns which you would even ones you might see in the Catholic Church and in fact to do that would be called community cancer and Sacre's before vatican ii maybe a mortal sin that's the traditional of it I mean obviously what happens nowadays is a different thing so where did you go from there you've received this lackluster accompaniment into the church did you get your sacraments yes he was king Jessore 32 received me as a church and confirm it over then on the same day but I said I'd rather be confirmed by the bishop of course on the here's a 26 for tune 2008 I was then confirmed by the nose although Bishop of Northampton and dear members named Peter Doyle Bishop Peter Doyle but to me he's farmer Peter Doyle because he's only just a priest I actually looked him up he was ordained a priest ten days before the the new 1968 Roman Pontifical came into force so he said just about three peas in there was all a bishop he was the first bishop a point is ring then where will by bending the sixteenth in 2040 and if he's about 72 now and so and when he's 75 according to a new 1983 code of canon law he has to attend to his resignation to his coated Pope so you know a few years time there's going to be a new Novus Ordo Bishop of Northampton so where did he go from there after the confirmation well I always knew about the Latin Mass from what I learned to school and I've just received into the modern church I wanted to go to a Latin Mass somewhat but I couldn't get there because of proms of transport I lived in the town of Winslow in rural North Buckinghamshire very few buses no train station and I wouldn't be able to get there and back to a Latin Mass on Sunday or any other day really so in 2019 I've got myself a 125cc scooter motor bike and and then I was able to go to laughing math a physic and I wouldn't have a few times and the sister of who would later become my godmother told me about the Sharps pilgrimage in France it's a three-day pilgrimage walking it over the Pentecost weekend walking from not redonk cathedral paris to not to dom cathedral and shark probably just over 100 kilometers they have traditional mass every day and high mass some mass and odours it was outdoors yeah except when he gets a shot the Masters in Chartres Cathedral so you came back exhilarated and on fire for the old mats yeah full justice movement head I realized I've ever seen the lady who later became her godmother or the trainer I came back with as feels like anger the new masters you know after come back and when I came back I tried not to go to the new mass before I would go every every few Sundays maybe twice a month to the old mass but should be 25 miles from my home but when I came back I went 25 miles there 25 miles back every Sunday to go to the old pass and then I started doing research nothing has happened since Vatican 2 and I start to doubt the validity of my Novus Ordo confirmation because the oil they're using confirmation nowadays there's no requirement that chrism be olive oil on Belgium it can be any vegetable or your own any spice and often not cheap as sunflower oils are used or other vegetable oils for eating with upper costs and that basically invalid matter and also the the words have changed and I sign via the sign of the Cross and confirmed with the Christmas salvation in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost that's the old one but the new one is n be sealed early if the Holy Spirit so I start to have doubts about when there was all the confirmation I was looking at getting myself conditionally confirmed in the odds right in this traditional right and I first contacted us in mass society about that now because they're sort of in with modern hierarchy and they use whether it's auxiliary bishops and other already being confirmed in a new right that they weren't able to do anything so then the man who later became my god barber who I'm method footage he advised me to go to the sspx that is the Society of Saint Pius attempt it's the organisation which Archbishop Marcel offended and I started to go to the SPX here now went to them once in Oxford say hello to them you know asked about confirmation and I went on the wall simple which 2009 in September then just after the Washington pilgrimage I'd came back and I realized about some invalid and so I got a note from my pastor to say had no intention of the original sin when he baptized me that new evangelical pastor it showed it to return to st. Peter priesthood involved with the laughter massif lithic and he said it seems doubtful look into it he found invalid and so he arranged for the local dose and praise that fitted to baptize me unconditionally with the full right with exosomes and everything and it was the local diocese and priest as opposed to the Joseph returned to st. Peter priests because the local dogs and fries was saying the old master instead the local dost and priest of lytic who's now deceased Dennis McSweeney's his name he he likes your mouth and he says it used to say quite often so he was saying that's that week so he baptized him in your drive and I've sent you the video too that is on YouTube you mentioned another Society of something about st. Peter what was the name of that organization and cool they're pretty fraternity of st. Peter or the FSSP okay they're in full communion with the poor brain yeah depends what you mean by full to mean the thing is the the term fullness the full communion is very much fat akin to what thing being before Vatican to you even in communion or you won't there's no such thing as partial full communion it's the dew of clay geology and especially with Vatican 2 teachers the Church of Christ assists in the Catholic Church which before Vatican 2 it was a church Krause is the Catholic Church but this this new family nothing it's no sort of Cardinal more recently cocoa pool mario has been talking about how we should reflect on the possibility of partially valid sacraments and you know that could even relate to and Anglicans orders which probably over the 13th the credits be as the Dean undoes the avoiding a stolid Curia in 1896 infallibly and that but also marriage that yada you have a part of the route of marriage where it's either honor its office you don't have pastors or sacrament tradition they hold the whole fullness stroke part this is just so fast good too and I think this thing this and more as they tits you and deafening is going on with Francis it's just an extension of African too you know he was ordained in 1969 but although he's born in not nineteen thirties he's no nothing but Vatican two there may be a way for you to reconcile a token to with what you consider to be the pre-vatican to church I would hope that you could come to understand that because there are many subtle teachings even in the Bible that your average layman if he just picks up the Bible and read that he will get confused and he might be tempted to abandon Jesus Christ do you not agree well Bishop Williamson said that tradition and the Second Vatican Council mix like oil and water it's not said it becomes I think completely right he's SSPX well yeah he's been kicked out yes as px now but he's SPS resistance he was one of the four bishops consecrated by Archbishop Marcel of heaven I know I know him very well I've met him I've served his maths many times I even sent you photographed me serving his maths in the Baptist Churchill which is just a coincidence because with if you say Mass in a little library hall but the person of the Keith in turn up so one of our laymen they laid him on the ground on the street and the Baptist then then of the whole for half an hour and and we ended up saying mass in the Baptist Church all which I thought was strange but I will never forget that massive they cannot live in Street Baptist row if they were then you know we gave permission from them and probably didn't know so where did he go from there where are we now in your chronology can you just catch us up so so yes so I got the ESP priest decidedly invited and I was baptized unconditionally on the 4th October 2009 in the traditional right and the video I've I've sent us on YouTube and because my bats are is completely absolutely none does leave or eat that also necessarily read my confirmation invalid as well and so I could have that at that point I've gone to laughing society and had them confirm me are necessary efficient witness that but I thought well if he's only going to intend to do what the what naman Church gonna do or and it's the chrism really rot right so I decided to go to the SSPX anyway to get confirmed and I was fun enough go big confirm a bishop Williamson who was at that time live in the UK he wasn't yet kicked out the SSPX but he was expelled from Argentina because of certain statements he made on Swedish television I had to get the approval father Paul Morgan there was the den district superior of Great Britain by us I wrote very my letter of his approval in point and it was just about to be published at Bishop TCA tomorrow he was going to do a confirmation as tall as another SSPX bishop and so he wrote back st. started be possible but I'd rather you be confirmed by Bishop to see a tomorrow anything does his official confirmation tool I just interviewed Steven Heiner and I believe his claim to fame is that he interviewed that very bishop yes I believe he interviewed actually both Bishop Williamson and Bishop that you see them all around here as well those were both SSPX at the time yes and and he also interviewed father Paul Morgan as well the set of account is slash SSPX is it a small world could kind of I mean there are some overlap I mean the sspx is not said of a contest fair to say but from the early days their father on Tisha card that bishop soundboard then father Sanborn father Dolan now Bishop Dolan you know their various priests and the SSPX who were said there were contests the SSPX start in the 1970s artificial if ever saw it between two things like have you watched farms recorders with the other YouTube Revolution card I mean farm she Carden was there first hand he knows things a bit better than I do you know out of the SSPX you had those who thought a consider the contest position and you also have been those in 1988 who left the founder fraternity of st. Peter again there's probably a lot people when the sspx you go through the SSPX and go to the SSPs resistance who are said if account some of them may sort of know it themselves they said of acontece but be secret about it 7m are unsure worth they said of a contests I mean for myself I don't know when I actually became a said of a contest I know I've definitely said of a concert in 2013 when we go yo came in on whim but but you know I had doubts about bending 16th for between 2010 and 2013 about whether he was Pope who is the last Pope that you didn't have doubt about Pius the 12th correct yeah 512 what would it take for someone to sit down with you and show you that Pope Pius the 12th was either a heretic or just simply was not a valid Pope how much would it take well I'd have to see the evidence I mean are there is no evidence how would you characterize the mental health of someone that made that claim I mean I really don't know at this stage I would have to play it by ear but yeah I mean I I haven't come across as said if it comes to doesn't believe past 12 isn't the Pope wasn't the Pope even though he's not the Pope now because he's dead but what I'm driving at here is that you have not thoroughly investigated all of the Pope's from st. Peter up until Pius the 12th in order to come to the firm conviction that they were all fully Catholic and that they were not professing heresies and this sort of thing you haven't done that level of research correct well is what 260 Pope's from Saint Peters Pius the 12th I think don't walk long time yeah it seems like a rash judgment to say well look there hasn't been a pope in my lifetime but I'm gonna just blindly put my faith in the 260 Pope's that came before I was even born that they were all free from any heretical statements or suspicious disciplines that they imposed on their faithful it just seems very naive and very like a very rash judgment do you understand my perspective well I mean a church you know is always for every way for all the time and you know I mean you don't have to be around to know what the Pope is taught you got the documents from them I mean there is a yeah there is consistency a lot people researched it and I've looked at that research myself verified it before it became instead of a contest and in fact the reason instead of a contest is not so much that I don't see Frances Pope I just can't see how he can be Pope it's quite clear I mean I know for example there's I'm not my friend I know in Bologna I've heard this from file jacquard actually on on a show called Frances watch which is on a Stephen Highness true restoration thing apparently here's this University of Bologna in Italy there's this theological faculty which they research everything to do a Vatican to disciplinary never accept a pre and post Vatican two and I think they haven't notice although priests don't I think what they conclude is that so that's good too is is rupture and I mean I don't rely on them like that but I remember pharmacy card that was saying that sort of since Francis came along they've got more funding in Euros from the European Union because he's so radical I believe what has been planned long long in the farms and the Freemasons in the obvious and the eminence of our Lord Jesus Christ have you know got inside a church and you've done it from the inside with Vatican two and I'm sure you've seen people and postures and aware of that I mean that is pretty damning evidence I haven't watched I interviewed the documentary maker Thomas I have no doubt that there's infiltration and the Paul the six famously said smoke where Satan has entered the Catholic Church it I think it's evident for all to see but I just in God and in God alone and I think like you said there's a plan from all eternity and nothing happens that isn't intended for our greater good all circumstances are optimized by God for each and every single individual don't you agree oh yeah I mean sometimes God allows evil to bring about a great good I'd say one thing that American too does teach is primacy of individual conscience and the thing is if if I thank you to use prompted conscious that if someone follows the conscience they go to heaven and I'm truly following my conscious being instead of a contest if I'm wrong and the Vatican to church is right then I'm saved whereas on the other hand if I see the Vatican had Vatican 2 Vatican 2 Church following my father's what do being in the Vatican to church and I'm wrong then I'm damned so either way Bobby instead of a contest on simply a a logical point of view it makes sense for me bombing I'm not self-concept because that reason I'm stead of acontece because I honestly believe it is the truth and sometimes the truth is inconvenient Hey yeah for sure this Walter I do want to address what you said about conscience that's a very touchy topic and it certainly has not been dogmatically defined pre or post 1958 so I think we should be careful about characterizing the Vatican to church as having embraced the conscience loophole that's something that a lot of people like to toy with and theologians are exploring a lot of very subtle applications of the nuanced relationship between the objective reality of Christ and his church and the sacraments and our consciences but the church teaches me that it's not merely a question of conscience that there is an objective necessity for baptism for all the sacraments to be within the Catholic Church to be saved there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church my Catholic Church teaches me that and you're set of a Cantus point of view makes the same claim right so that we're in the same boat theologically there despite the fact that there are a lot of flaky people trying to look to conscience as the loophole I resisted being said if accomplished for quite a number of years or at least formally coming out and said overcome test and when bending xvi came to england he called rome williams the quote Archbishop of Canterbury and Pope Leo the 13th decreed infallibly in 1896 in apostolic area the Anglican orders are and always have been absolutely none of us leroy's and not only that but yet she went as far as to say your grace the Archbishop of Canterbury and your grace is that the title used for Archbishop's you know and the archbishop has jurisdiction yeah I couldn't believe that I think that's just diplomacy common courtesy and I'm no expert on on these social graces whatsoever I'm not but I know that if you look at the life of Jesus he was turning heads with the company he kept I mean the thing is if he didn't have to say his grace the Archbishop weekend really could have said the Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury and that was excused him very simply but me done worse things than that he went to the into religious prayer meeting at Assisi and praying in for the mosque which you know is communication and sacristy I mean doing in Protestant churches but or not but doing it in a mosque you know those and the supposed victory of Christ upon earth but what do you say about Jesus Christ ostensibly breaking the sabbath what do you say because the well do you understand why from my perspective you splinter groups look like a bunch of farah cycle maniacs well I'm not sure I do exactly but I mean funny if you say that I mean one thing that the Gallio so you don't Benedict 16 am I done it as well is things like Seder meals you know with Jewish things when our Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross that was the end of the Old Covenant and beginning a new covenant and the Old Covenant became invalid but the one Church tends to pretend that the Old Covenant is still valid no not at all that's not what my church teaches but I think you'll remember when st. Paul corrected st. Peter because he was torn by the sort of Judaizers right so I think there's a precedent where Pope's can struggle with the reality of their social context and they can fail in a certain way that appears to be human respect and they're subject to correction by the church do you acknowledge that much well I mean with pigouvian I mean he was barred from election from the big very beginning I mean he was clearly a heretic before he was did and so bye-bye the paper ball connect the positive officio from Pope Paul the fourth he can't have been Pope in the first place but I mean it's impossible it says someone who's there ahead of the Catholic Church would necessarily have to be a member of the Catholic Church I still have yet to look into this because I'm just frankly not taking it seriously enough to look into it too deeply but as I said to my previous set of accantus guests Stephen Heiner I can well imagine a scenario where God would permit his church to have a heretical Pope at least material heretic who is nonetheless prevented from teaching error concerning faith and morals I don't see any theoretical objection to that now it might be the case that it is in fact impossible and that god forbids the head to be heretical but there's more to being a heretic than just teaching heresy it has to do with a certain persistence and a resistance to correction right which implies that the church can correct the Pope I don't believe that I mean you know because if he's the Pope you know he could Clary invalid it's basically his word against the church and his word sticks right yes that that'd be the problem with that I mean it has been addressed on on on trad cast by no resort at watch they've talked about this situation yeah they may have talked about it but they don't have God's omniscience right that's the difference the reason I'm comfortable in what you consider a fake Church is because I believe in the church's Authority the church's infallibility and the churches in defect ability and I also believe that the church can be recognized by the four marks she is one Holy Catholic and apostolic and I don't see how the said of accantus --ts are able even in theory to maintain the four marks or the three attributes could you talk a little bit about those in detail well SPD one Church Universal the same way for a long time happy Holi I mean John Paul the second kiss in the Koran craving the Voodoo religion directly against the first commandment I am THE LORD thy God thou shalt have no strange cloth before me Catholic Universal it's not being taught to capital e universal for all times I said and the lack of Holy Orders they've changed the sacramental form for pistol consecration invalidating Holy Orders the postage to church to me just doesn't have it the fall marks either what would you consider invalid about the consecration of bishops in in the changed consecration well what constitutes of the actual sacramental form for pistol concentration and priests or deja was somewhat unclear between theologians and until Pope Pius the 12th in 1947 and sacramental modernist he defined enviably what constitutes the essential form of appreciation and physical consecration etc and you have to have two things you have to have the grace of the Holy Ghost being mentioned referred to in the form and the power of order being conferred the new right of the pistol consecration doesn't specify the power of order being conferred is there a quick and easy way for me to verify these are a document that I can go to it's a reformed Pontifical of 1968 okay that's a document I could find online possibly well I mean what does it finds - some of it online possibly but yeah I mean you don't so need to have a bound book because you're not gonna be performing ceremony unless I decide to make myself a bishop and just start my own church how you determine bishop I'm just being completely silly talk me through the strange understanding that you must have of this huge church suddenly disappearing in one spot and appearing in much smaller numbers in another spot please talk me through that well Bishop Sanborn says that he knows all the church has the corpse in the Catholic Church as they not Frankenstein that's what he uh Nancy he makes yeah I want you to talk me through that imagery because the real church is fully continuous from your point of view and yet there's this corpse that's been left behind so is that an instantaneous change or a gradual change are there still people in the corpse that are finding their way into the living body of Jesus Christ well I think what we're going through now is being a repeat like the Great Western schism we had several different ages I mean there are other claimants like so closee Pope Michael with America I think we are going through some repeat of the Great Western schism but slightly different numbers you know to what it was before no but if you have a billion adherents to a religion and then suddenly 99.999 8% of adherence to that true religion suddenly find themselves members of a false religion how do you explain that well I mean if there was a genuine mistake that's a lot not like something that happened to the Great Western schism I mean you know III don't think you know such people will be damned you know it's having a obviously all these liberals and you know which don't believe in church teaching through your post like or for contraception massive birth control well yeah they're not caffeinate one Catholic before hands you know that's they're not part the church they've gone out with the judge but it seems to me that Satan can fool conservatives just as much as he can fool liberals no is there not a danger there I don't think there is too much for a danger really because before vatican ii all the teaching was very clear concise to the point and you know we're not were just wasted whereas post factor you to you look at everything is ambiguous there's yeah I mean you know these press conferences at the Vatican about a male tip during the round comedian fall and you know they start out and at the end of the end of the conference the journalists don't know anything more than they knew beforehand yeah what are the tell-tale signs of a genuine wolf in sheep's clothing have you met one actually I have I've been 10 feet away from one father Joseph Ratzinger no I mean I was kind of excited even uh what you may not be Pope but he may be hope what were the indications in your mind that gave it away that he is in fact a wolf in sheep's clothing well at first I had this belief that Bendix 16th may be Pope but why is he doing all these silly things you know I know yeah I mean you know he's he somewhat confused I mean Bishop Williamson you know before he was pokin you know he practiced once and thinks that his application may have been on pressuring him may have been invalid and Bishop Williamson thinks he's got that bending 16th has a problem with his mind for some time and I think that's probably true actually you think he might have mental illness or some sort I don't think it's that much mental illness I think it's the philosophy I think he's probably got the philosopher Immanuel Kant which denies objective reality I don't think so I don't think so if you read the Regensburg address that infamous Regensburg address in germany it was precisely by attacking Immanuel Kant and associating that way of thinking with Protestantism and with Islam that's what he said in Regensburg so I don't see how he would fall into that same trap when he's pointing it out as a very dangerous modern trap of the mind when he went to seminary he might had half modernist professions and half good professors so he's got this idea this morning it really doesn't matter sort of so he can say you can say whatever yeah I mean I I think your your speculation is pretty wild I'd need to have some concrete evidence that Pope Benedict the 16th was some sort of transcendentalist I don't believe that I would need some concrete evidence and I haven't seen any I've seen evidence to the contrary he's talked against transcendentalism what is this organization that seems to be a very ill repute brother diamond and the Holy Family monastery or something like that in the United States do you are you aware of them yes I am Most Holy Family monstery ergo mine and do you know if they are in fact controversial yes they are controversial generally speaking when I first came from the rosaldo to tradition I I've been like new math I came along the videos against the new maths is a false better than abomination it went on got a big rant about it and I mean I did research in time what they've said and I think it's true but I mean I can see the way they say it sometimes it does come across a bit strong but if I try not to be too strong to people I've met before in which you know not traditional Catholic et cetera but I mean the truth is the truth and then excuse error - and - or they're not 504 point zero zero zero wand I agree fully I completely agree with that statement anyway I mean it's not I I think in France there's a lot of hypocrisy I mean he said like Who am I to judge in relation to homosexuals potentially and then he said but Donald Trump is not a true Christian at another point well he said if then it was a conditional statement he said one who's only interested in building walls and not bridges he's not a true Christian but he didn't say that Donald Trump is only interested in building walls but he was warning Trump that bridges need to be built and not just walls so you see it's a conditional thing the same thing with Who am I to judge that was wildly misinterpreted by every enemy of Francis I never had a problem with it because what he said was maybe subtle and nuanced but it wasn't anti-catholic and it wasn't Pro sin Pro pro active unrepentant homosexuality all it was was a statement about if someone is Orthodox and they also are a sinner engaging in sin Who am I to judge meaning maybe they're struggling maybe they're not unrepentant I mean if individual Christ say who am I to judge I mean you know in new in the old right of pistil consecration it says it is a bit of duty to college to to pass judgment to interpret a blessed ordained baptised confirming cetera yeah well he has judgment on homosexual unions he said that it's gravely disordered right so he has pastors when he's not afraid to pass judgment but he's also not afraid to pass thoroughly care for his flock of sinners by saying look if your intention is good and you want to strive to follow Jesus Christ that's the most important thing and if you fall falling is not what defines you what defines you is getting up and turning to Jesus Christ repenting going to confession and availing yourself of prayer and the sacraments so there's a pastoral care that he has which is maybe too soft and gentle for the RAD trads but for me I find it that it's appropriate and it's very Christian and it's Catholic I think he does use the media you know sometimes to convey it and you make use of the ambiguity and there was all this stuff I mean nothing said his Catholics shouldn't breed like rabbits about what I could be in services by mass you know it's okay to use artificial contraception or it should yeah but he's also on the record said that contraception is grave sins so you know the thing is that he has recently stated that he's very willing to risk being misinterpreted I thought if you saw the statement by him but he said he takes the risk of talking off the cuff with people like for example on his in-flight interviews he's willing to take that risk and I personally agree with him I think it's worth the risk because it's getting attention it's bringing people closer to Jesus Christ it's drawing it's drawing people into the Catholic Church I'm not a fan of ambiguity Framm duties sake but the risk he takes by speaking off-the-cuff and by maybe having a bit of irony where he knows where he stands with God and if the radical right-wing doesn't have enough charity to give him the benefit of the doubt that's their problem you know I can understand that perspective because he he has a lot on his shoulders he's the Vicar of Jesus Christ and I trust him I don't trust him as a man but I trust his office that he is protected from teaching error concerning faith and morals and that there are graces and terrorism's that come with that office the and himself sinner and unworthy though he is I think he is being flooded with graces and to the extent that he corresponds with them so much the better you know the people feel preachers not wolves well the Vatican is surrounded by walls you know I mean wasn't you do not lead down I hope not because that's historical but you know that he said you know that the four brexit he said the UK should remain in European Union to help other countries what the European Union so good one the vascular member yeah he's in total is opinion about politics I frankly could care less but that's not the point the point is his job is to Shepherd Souls into the church and into ultimately into heaven right and I don't think that there's a dogmatic statement about Briggs it I don't you believe in in heaven I mean yeah I mean I think I read something the other day it says he's got the idea of heaven hell purgatory is so weapon window and he believes in something called even the Beatitudes if you're good or if you're bad you just get annihilated well that's clearly not Catholic if you said that I very interested to have some sort of documentation on that one the enemies of Christ and the enemies of the Pope are capable of vicious hateful lies so I don't believe everything that I hear about Donald Trump and I don't believe everything I hear about the Pope even though I don't trust Donald Trump and I don't trust the Pope as a man but I don't believe every slur and slander that comes my way you know I would need documented proof and if there's an ambiguous statement in writing I'd still want to give the benefit of the doubt so that's my position that I understand that your position is it's quite different though but at the end of my interviews I always ask my guests to speak directly to the audience just to give a little message of hope so what would you say to anyone that might be listening now well I would say you know pray the rosary not the Luminous Mysteries you pray on your fingers we don't have a rosary because if you're Rohit it's better but it's the prayers that count and I wear the brown scapular as well probably Mount Carmel and then practice work middle and ball don't even not yet baptize don't wear the green scapular for perversion it all need you towards the Catholic Church all you got to do is all you got to do to do is all you got to do