Catholic vs. Catholic - 2018-08-25 - Christopher Agron Part 2

Author Recorded Saturday August 25th, 2018

There are 45 episodes in the Versus:Catholic series.

Recorded September 13th, 2017

Catholic vs. Catholic - 2017-09-13 - Thomas

This is part 2 because it's the second episode featuring Chris on my podcast, but in reality this is an interview that Chris did of me for his awesome Catholic podcast: Catholic Real. Check it out. • Support the CVS Podcast: • Be a guest on a livestream:

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These YouTube transcripts are generated automatically and are therefore unformatted and replete with errors.
what's up bro Catholics I am Chris and this is Catholic real in light of other recent scandals I really wanted to find someone to talk to us a little bit about what the right mindset is to have and how we should be taking this whole turn of events and I am so blessed to have the friend that I do in David Ross David Ross is the host of Catholic verses he's a converse so you know he's smart and his perspective on this really got me grounded and raised my spirits and I hope it does the same for you I don't have a webcam I just bought one from Amazon today it should come in the mail within a few days like a week nice have you have you been keeping up with all the stuff that a church militant is bringing light to Michael Voris yeah I watch him from time to time I watched on your wall on your Facebook wall I watched a little something about the crisis but lately I haven't been keeping up-to-date what is church militant been saying they're basically exposing a bunch of cover-ups it's wild because people are sending them like basically the evidence that the bishops are sweeping on the table well the actual victims themselves are reaching out to church militant and just giving them the evidence like look they're literally sweeping this this right here under the table and so it's just super sad it's sad that it is comes to that like you know like it's it's it's very disheartening to say the least that it's that corrupt I never imagined in my lifetime that I would see the day where the lady would twist the arm of the hierarchy to be good like cool like I never never in my life did I imagine that would be the case yeah well there's a lot of bottom-up stuff in terms of theological developments doctrine of course Marian apparitions private revelations stuff like that liturgy there's all kinds of stuff that goes bottom-up and we our priest prophet and King each baptized Christians so I love the church and I respect the church and I have faith in the church so I think we're gonna be okay but do we definitely need to cut a lot of fat you know definitely a mind blown at exactly how you're putting it as like the lady acting on their vocations of priest prophet and King like you said even in liturgical II because I always see I've seen it more of here in my diocese of just like the lady being like really intense about wanting to attend Tritton see mass and like being very particular about supporting like like Latin Mass and like those parishes they still are very traditional but what else were you referring to those who are ordained like the members of the hierarchy they're constantly observing the faithful and it's a two-way communication so there's a lot of discernment that takes place not only theologically but even liturgical II and in every aspect of church life and so we do have an effect on the way that things evolve I mean there there are essentials that can't change and there are also non-essential things that can change this is true across space and time so if you look at the church throughout space sometime if you look at the liturgy throughout space and time you'll see a wide variety this is why I'm a little bit reluctant to get too excited about the traditional Latin Mass I am fully on board with what they call the Novus Ordo Mass because I understand that it's not a rigid thing and Pope Francis has opened my eyes a lot too to the negative influence of clericalism where we really put the clerics on a pedestal and make a to sharp distinction between the lady and the clerics and I think we need to realize that it's a relationship and it's reciprocal and there's a discernment we need to be discerning when we decide who's Catholic and who's not like there are priests bishops and Cardinals who are wolves in sheep's clothing so we need to discern that and those who are faithful in the hierarchy also need to discern what is legitimate in the sense of the faithful the regular people that are engaging in devotion spontaneously we are infallible we participate in the infallibility of Jesus Christ we the faithful we participate in the infallibility of Jesus Christ so those who are faithful in the hierarchy are watching us to discern what infallible movements are taking place here because we have what's called the sense of the faithful and this is one of the four ways that infallibility manifests itself in the church so there's a give-and-take you chose the Catholic faith very much in your life and so what is your mindset every time we hear about like another scandal another Bishop covering something up another priest embezzling like what goes through your mind because I'd be really curious about that like your mindset in in all this I don't know if I'm typical in this regard because I tend to be cerebral and to live a little bit too much in my head and my head heart connection is something that I'm working on with the help of the church and prayer and the sacraments and so I do tend to be a little bit cold and cerebral you know I do also love and have compassion and I am a warm person but there is a component to my religiosity which is a little bit cerebral so I'm fighting against that but when I'm confronted by controversy in the church my immediate reaction is to go straight to principle and the principle is that God alone is good as Jesus said you know why do you call me good only God the Father is good so I can say the same thing even though I am a little Christ I am a member of Christ I can also say why do you call me good only the Father is good you know I know that I'm a sinner I know that I am weak I know that I'm unworthy to be a Catholic and I know that it's true of every Catholic every faithful Catholic and every priest every bishop and every Cardinal and even the Pope himself the Pope is unworthy to be a kind like just like I am and the Pope is a sinner so the principles that guide my reaction to scandal are really quite simple it's that I don't worship man I worship God Almighty and you know do as they say not as they do I think this is clear that we are experiencing something that is common to every age in the church so to put it in really really simple terms I've always been able to see the baby amid the bathwater and I've always been able to make that distinction you know that the baby is good only the baby is good and the bathwater is foul it's disgusting don't drink it for the love of God don't drink the bathwater just drink the blood of the baby and eat the flesh of the baby and you'll be okay you know so we need to be able to discern the baby from the bathwater and I've always been able to do that as a convert because I was an anti Catholic before I converted I hated the church I hated Jesus Christ I hated God and so I was always able to see the bath water very clearly the delightful moment came when I actually saw there was a baby in that bathwater and once you see that you know if you think there's only bath water and then you see the baby the glorious perfect holy baby Jesus in that murky bathwater you you can never really go back to a cynical point of view you just can't whereas someone that's born into the faith they are raised with more emphasis on the baby once they get splashed with some of that bathwater I think it might be a little bit more traumatizing and a little bit harder to reconcile you know there might be some cognitive dissonance but for me coming from the outside in seeing what looks so horrible and so ugly from the outside and then stepping into the church and seeing the glorious light coming through the stained glass windows literally and figuratively it's really breathtaking and I can never go back to a cynical approach to the church I just know now that the church is the truth and that Jesus Christ is who we claim to be so nothing can my face what do you focus on in formation and what has helped you grow information have you had any like spiritual directors that stand out or is there any type of research that you like to do how did you grow in knowledge of the faith in your journey I was privileged to have met a monk a Catholic monk when I was working in a computer store in 2009 at this point I had been studying philosophy for about eight years as a hobby Western philosophy and I had very recently at that time come to believe in God I had become a monotheistic generic monotheists and I hadn't picked a monotheistic religion yet but through the course of events I just happened to stumble upon the confessions of st. Augustine and that helped open me up to Christianity which for me was always Catholicism because I knew enough about the history of the church to know that Christianity was Catholicism because Catholicism is the only church that claims infallibility and I'm not going to belong to a man-made religion that admits to being man-made I mean I I may be wrong about the Catholic Church the Catholic Church may in fact be a false religion and Jesus Christ may be a liar or a lunatic but the more I learned the more convinced I become that he is Lord and my certainty now I mean it doesn't mean much I'm a nobody but my certainty is 99.99999 repeated I don't really have a plan B anymore but getting back to this monk that walked into my store to get his computer repaired I just asked him I said look I've just discovered that I'm not God that God is God and I want to talk about God can we get together and he said yeah my monastery is right across the street and I said what I'd never noticed that but it's just not really easy to notice unless you're looking for it but there's actually a monastery in the city of Montreal near the Mount Royal metro station so he instructed me I was very privileged he be he was in the process of becoming ordained as a priest he became ordained shortly after I became confirmed I had my confirmation uh but I was prepared for about six months by his one-on-one instruction so normally our CIA is done in a group setting but I had one on one our CIA with this gentleman this monk he's a good friend and he's since moved to pull and he's running the monastery in Poland the order that he belongs to is a fairly new one it's called the monastic fraternity of Jerusalem they live in the city they pray for the city I think they work part-time but they support themselves and it's a nice order you can look into it if you don't know about it but I was very privileged to have one on one our CIA training from this man and I told him from the beginning I don't believe in the Trinity I don't believe obviously in Jesus Christ and he said that's fine we're gonna give you instruction and if you accept the instruction if you believe that what we're teaching you is reasonable then you will accept it and if not that's fine and so I kept an open mind and I read the Catechism of the Catholic Church I had been reading the Bible as an enemy of the church just to mock and ridicule Christianity so I already had a bit of background on the Bible but the Catechism really helped in the Saints really helped st. Agustin really helped and I'm not formally trained other than our CA but the bulk of my instruction comes from reading the Saints reading the history of the church reading the histories of the council's in the papacy and the lives of the saints and the writings of the saints I am particularly excited by the intellectual side of Catholic tradition so I'm very very excited about st. Augustine st. Anselm who sometimes called the second San Agustin he lived in the 11th century I believe and to a lesser extent I'm excited about st. Thomas Aquinas I just don't find him as warm I know that he is very warm I just don't feel it when I read the Summa which is pretty much the only thing I've read by him but I do love him I revere him I know he's a great mystic I know he's a great lover of God in every sense of the word so I know he's a very warm and a very probably the greatest intellect in the history of Catholicism but my top favorite is st. Augustine so I read a lot of him and the other Saints and that's pretty much where I get my information about the church did you want to talk a little bit about the spiritual directors sure did you have one outside of the monk as well it's a bit of a sore point with me I've really really really struggled I've always I've prayed about it I've talked to people about it I've tried different spiritual directors I haven't had success yet the people that have agreed to be my spiritual director predominantly have been priests but for one reason or another the chemistry was not good part of the problem also with chemistry is that I'm a bit eccentric and eccentricity I think is a sign of pride and it's a lack of humility so I need to work on that but yeah for now I'm pretty much going on my own the people that are living in the church today I haven't seen a lot that's impressed me I see a few examples here and there of faithful Catholics like yourself and you know people at church I mean who are on fire for the faith who are unapologetic about the truth the full truth not a compromised truth but the full truth of Jesus Christ you do meet them and there are many many many around me that I haven't met I just see them and there's no way for me to know are they a faithful Catholic or not but those who I do meet eventually normally I discover that they're not actually in love with Jesus Christ I really do think of myself as being instructed by the Saints those who have already passed on I feel like that's the smart way to go about it too because like even thinking about it it's very unreasonable for me to expect someone who's like extremely busy like doing good works and living his own faith to like also set aside like an hour a week for me and we're gonna casually meet up and he's gonna teach me things that's like almost unreasonable and I I find myself kind of like you like just looking at Saints and other role models and kind of like heroes that I look up to that I can learn from Jesus Christ being number one but like people who I can see as role models and how they of Christ and I just I feel like if you get to know the saints you definitely will get to love Jesus and a deeper way just because their example is just ridiculous hmm these tiny creatures that we are struggling to understand God and his message of love for us he will send us messages he will send us Saints he will send us Saints not only big-name Saints but he'll send a small named Saints like Chris that grown to talk to us I'm not trying to flatter you I'm just saying that you know you are striving to get into heaven so you're a small a saint I'm forbidden to despair of your salvation every indication is that you're striving here you're in the church so I'm ready to give reasons for the hope that's in me for your salvation and hope you have the same for me but I am able to talk to you and God is smiling on this do you understand it's the whole economy of salvation that really struck me today how God understands that we do need each other we do need that human element and God Almighty took honor flesh he became human but there's more to it than that he's not going to dominate and bully us and say hey I want the attention no he's willing to let a 14 year old girl speak for him he's willing to let some sickly old woman that can barely even speak speak for him he's willing to let people of all situations and all rich and poor soldiers and slaves everyone can speak for Jesus that's how humble God is so that really struck me today in the economy of salvation how we're called to love each other in Christ it's very organic and I find it very touching that's super deep also not a saint but I'm doing my best I have to disclaim anyone like I'm gonna stick with what we were talking about earlier with do as I say not as I do I'm working on my Wow so I'm super fascinated by that too especially with in regards to like praying for others and how you grow and graces because you praying for them but they also get the graces as well so has your parish address the scandals at all or at least made a point to talk about like how we should deal with these because I feel like you very much are in a weird way like you're not impressed by Dan and I feel like unfortunately like most people who are like kind of shocked and like disgusted and disheartened by like the gravity of how corrupt and how long this has been going on so has your parish addressed it at all or have you guys have you seen anything being done over there as well no you know I'm not gonna be able to give you a complete picture of the whole Montreal diocese right but from what I've seen people are reluctant to be too controversial this is something that I think is a worldwide trend maybe there's some pockets in Africa where people are a little bit more on fire to talk about sin and in particular sexual sin it's not something that most people in Canada are comfortable with because we're quote-unquote polite people we are a a small church that is in crisis and a lot of people sadly think that as long as we have people sitting in the pews then everything is good right there's so many unrepentant sinners in the church that are hard to detect because the mortal sin that they think is not sin is pretty much socially acceptable whether it be masturbation homosexuality fornication pornography all these sorts of things people have become so accustomed to their sin that they think that it's just normal especially since everyone in the locker room is engaging openly in discussions about all these sorts of sins they think well it can't be that grave right because everyone's doing it and everyone is openly talking about it and not only are they openly talking about it they're bragging about it and so the the whole point of recounting this little anecdote about unrepentant sinners in the Catholic Church is that they have a sort of perverted notion about the church where it's better to keep the numbers up and if we were to be strict in following Jesus Christ then the numbers would be so low that they would have to sell the churches off and it would somehow take away from the church so maybe you could just talk to me a little bit about that idea of the remnant Church big Church full of wolves in sheep's clothing versus a small church that's pure my gut reaction is I'd rather have a small and pure Church I know you're interviewing me but can you just talk to me a little bit about how you feel about that oh my goodness I was literally just talking to my cousin the other day about the greatest teaching love God above all things and love your neighbor as yourself and I pointed out to her that unfortunately I feel like there is some sort of misunderstanding with loving God above all things because if you understand that the essence of God is being and goodness to love God in one way is to say that I love reality like and and I mean love it's like a verb like I have the feeling in the emotion of loving things for how they are and loving where I'm at and loving every moment and the reality of it then that's really deep like that can that solves so many things if you can just love what is and instead of making it a delusion of what should be in your own mind but the the reality of it is that same-sex attraction is a disorder and it's okay to have a disorder I have I have anxiety disorders like mental disorders are not gonna send you to hell but if you can't admit that right is right truth is truth and good is good that that's a different disorder you know what I mean now you have an actual problem with sin because you're rejecting God you're rejecting the reality and the truth and so that can also be applied to the church honestly like there's like a real idealistic side of me that's right there with you that's like let's just like throw all these like corrupt dudes in prison and good riddance but like you were saying earlier there is the baby and the bathwater you can't expect that church to be like a super perfect thing because quite frankly it just isn't and I think that the Lord chooses humble means you know he wrote on a donkey he chooses humble means to show his almighty grace and presence and the church it's gonna be fought and it's gonna be corrupt and there's gonna be a lot wrong with it but like Pope Francis said we can't fall into clericalism we don't worship these people we worship God but believe it or not I've been told by multiple people to like stop talking about the scandals and I'm like no I have a duty to point out when something's wrong I have a duty to put pressure on bad bishops especially even if it's my own bishop in my own diocese because if they are covering up sex abuse they should not be bishops but I love the church even though it's like really nasty and ugly like I still love it it's the only one that has the Eucharist you know it's like I was just listening to like a podcast today and it's talking about when Jesus was teaching him about the bread of life and like a bunch of people just left and he has Peter like are you going to and he said where else will we go and that's probably one of the only times that it was like he was looking at the negative it was like full-on like a negative answer like Peter didn't say Lord you're the greatest and I love you and I'm gonna stay here he was like where else can I go like this is like it and that's like kind of how I feel about the church is like yeah like he adds it's blatant flaws like and mainly in the people because nobody's perfect but it necessarily is the true Church like where else you're gonna go and that's like a tough pill to swallow because it necessarily means they're like we have to be a little bit more like you a little bit more honest in the way that we look at sin and not be surprised because like dude everyone sins like if you're sinning all sin is like equal because it'll all send you a house so like like some sins are really grotesque and horrible don't get me wrong but like it's still damnable to hell watching pornography MS reading you're still going to hell for that like just like still equally bad because you're offending an infinite God and therefore it's infinitely bad so by no means am i saying don't address the standards by no means am i saying avoid it by no means am i saying do nothing what I am saying is be grounded and be more like David Ross and realize that sin is everywhere and that there is a baby in the bath water I just wanted to say something about sin that's really important for everyone to understand it's just a little reminder to everyone that you will only be judged for your own sins and for the sins that you condoned actively if you're facilitating sin and others obviously that's a sin in yourself if there's some 80 year old priest that's accused of pedophilia or homosexual activity any sort of scandalous activity it's tragic you should pray for him and you should avoid bringing your children to these types of creepy people but usually you can tell when someone's creepy usually not always but usually you can tell if someone's creepy I've met lots of creepy priests and I just avoid them right I don't go to the police and say hey this priests creepy I just avoid them but the point is that even if there are a bunch of priests that are creepy perverts you will not be sent to hell for their sins you just won't you know so that relieves a lot of the pressure and the outrage it's like save the outrage for the man in the mirror that's what I like to do you know I'm outraged by my sin I really am I'm outraged by it why do I go to confession regularly it's because I'm still tempted and I still say yes to Satan we all do that's the real tragedy the real tragedy for you is that you are not a saint and the real tragedy for me is that I am NOT a saint and the real tragedy for that old man that you've never met that happens to be a priest and that happens to be a sick pervert is that he's not a saint not yet but he could be he could turn himself around and that's what I'm excited about what I'm excited about is not how disgusting these perverts are myself included well I'm excited about is how Jesus Christ gave us the opportunity to die to ourselves and to say yes to him and to partake in his goodness his beauty his holiness and to be a son of God I mean that's exciting to me the good news is so much more exciting than the bad news that I just don't get excited about bad news anymore you know now that I'm Catholic I just don't get excited about bad news because the bottle is over people like you we know the outcome we know who won in the battle between good and evil it was good you know their evil has no substance so don't get excited about Satan and his thrashing of his tail I mean yeah he can thrash around he can froth up the murky water he can do damage Satan can do damage we saw it on the cross right we saw Jesus Christ whose God incarnate tortured mocked spat upon whipped crowned with thorns and crucified you know so obviously Satan is given a certain amount of power in this world he's the prince of this world it's an undeniable fact that we are in danger but it's also a fact that the serpent is nailed to the cross he's done he's dying he's in his death throes so when I hear about scandal in the church I'm sad I pray for these people but more importantly I pray for myself and those around me that I love that we can follow the good path a good example of the Saints and of Jesus Christ and I celebrate the victory of Jesus Christ and I remind myself that I have a fundamental choice to make am I going to choose Satan and his disgusting path of self-indulgence in self-glorification or am I gonna choose the humble and somewhat disgusting path I have to say of the passion and cross and agony and death of Jesus Christ and I choose the latter I would rather suffer with Christ and party with Satan I mean it's so clear it's so obvious I'd rather receive severe chastisement from God then an all-expense-paid to luxury resort from Satan you know it's just there's no question about it if the world wants to show me agony and misery and scandal and this and that the other thing I'm not worried about it because I know that the fundamental choice that I have to make is for Christ or against Christ there is no middle option there's no Third Way it's really really simple you're with me or you against me you're gathering with me or you're scattering it really is that simple amen I feel like unfortunately the people that told me to not be vocal about pointing out what is going on with the priests and the bishops are kind of telling me to not be negative but I elaborate with them that no like we need to like thank God that this has been brought to life before they're dead and they're not going straight to hell right now we have been given an opportunity for them to repent because they've been exposed and maybe now they can change and repent you know and that's really the right mindset to have quite frankly because it's it's like you're saying you're focusing on the good which is hey we can be the generation to remove this corruption and give them an opportunity to repent by a bit I couldn't imagine how their judgment would be if they died while still in this mortal mortal grave sin so yeah I totally agree and everything he said was amazing I'm definitely just gonna quote all of it I wanted to say one more thing if it's okay please there's this idea of the monster you know I think this is a word that you may have heard thrown around about the pedophile priests or whatever they might be that they're monsters and I agree that they are monsters and the whole point of having monsters the whole reason why God allows us to have monsters is as an example that's what the word monster means there's a very close link between the monstrance where we show God and then the monster where we show not God right it's the same root word it's a demonstration so the monstrance is a demonstration of goodness and the monster is a demonstration of the lack of goodness right so we have again this fork in the road which way are you going to go there are no accidents there are no coincidences these things are in our lives they're carefully orchestrated by God they're allowed by God to touch each and every one of us to maximize our eternal happiness really I mean each and every one of us is destined for happiness with God and everything that happens is optimized to maximize our eternal happiness with God so when you see a monster yeah your disgust is real your disgust and your hatred of evil is good and it's justified that hatred of evil is healthy okay but we need to go one step further and we say well I am being shown this evil I am being shown this disgusting behavior and the scandal what is the reason for that what is it that I need to learn about myself to optimize my eternal happiness with God in the next life why am I being shown this because my perspective on it is unique everyone has a unique perspective why because each of us has our own place in this world we have our own circumstance in terms of family in terms of civic life and everything every we all have a very unique situation and that monster will be telling something slightly different each and every one of us that witnesses a scandal that is causing and there's so much beauty there's so much to be gathered from that if only we take the time to go one step further beyond the disgust the other point I wanted to make if you don't mind is about being perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect you touched on this earlier and I just recently interviewed Adam in a hand from the Catholic man show I don't know if you know about that of your listeners know about that show yeah he's pretty cool yeah he's a cool guy I also interviewed his partner in crime David Niles but he said something about that idea of being perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect and it stuck with me he said he struggled with that he found that difficult this idea of being perfect until someone I think it was a priest that he knew in his diocese explained it to him or gave him some perspective on it or interpreted it in a way that helped him and it's helped me as well you know there's this idea of and now I'm gonna use my own words but there's actually a Dogma in the Catholic Church that the church is a perfect society the church as a perfect society has every means of salvation it has the fullness of truth it has the fullness of the sacraments it has the fullness of everything that we need to be eternally happy with God that's what it means for the church to be a perfect society and it's a dogma of the church that the Catholic Church is a perfect society and likewise with you and with me and with a listener anyone that's striving to be a faithful Catholic we are in that sense we are perfect why not because we're not sinners not because we are perfect in every way but we are perfect in that one technical sense of having availed ourselves of the church in the fullness of truth that the church provides to us so I think we need to have recourse to this nuanced teaching about the church the holiness of the church is something that I'm always thinking about I'm always meditating on that because how can it be that this disgusting ugly black thing is beautiful how can the Ark I always think in terms of Noah's Ark so how can this ugly pitch-black ark what looks so disgusting from the outside be the one and only means of salvation how can it be perfect how can it be at the same time black and yet beautiful and in the Song of Solomon it talks about this and Saint Bernard has a really lovely commentary that he makes on the Song of Solomon where he explains that the church is black but beautiful and explains in poetic terms the paradox of the church and the purity and the holiness of the church despite the worthiness of her skin the darkness right so this idea of being perfect I think that we as faithful Catholics those of us who are striving to be faithful Catholics we submit in all things to Jesus Christ in principle in practice we fall that's why we go to confession in practice we fall but in principle we submit that's why we focus not on perfection in terms of performance but the perfection in terms of repentance you know we are not a museum for Saints we're a hospital for sinners so the perfect Catholic is like the perfect patient in a hospital the perfect patient in a hospital is not perfectly healthy the perfect patient in that hospital is the one who says yes to the surgeon don't eat where these clothes come at this time you know do this do that and the perfect patient says yes yes yes yes yes and so that's what a perfect patient is and what a perfect Catholic is is someone who says yes yes yes yes yes yes to the church yes to the Pope yes to the bishops do we say yes to the bishop that doesn't even believe in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist no we don't say yes to that man because that man is not a bishop that man is not a Catholic that man is a wolf you run far far away and you if you have the opportunity to somehow have him reformed or repent by all means go for it but my instinct is to just run far far away from the wolves in sheep's clothing I don't want to tangle with but my point is that the real Bishop the one who's Catholic and it's not heard to know who's Catholic it really is not hurt the problem is that a lot of people hide it well they act like they're Catholic they claim that they're Catholic they don't let you know that they're in rebellion they're in hostile rebellion they hate Jesus Christ but they don't let you know that and they have an agenda and they're working hard they're working Cris they're working harder than you and I and they're working harder than some of the saints to bring down the church do you understand that this is the kind of bottle that we're dealing with here people are working day and night they're losing sleep in their quest to take down Jesus Christ I'm not losing sleep I get eight nine hours of sleep at night I take it easy I watch TV I hang out with my wife I'm not working as hard as the enemies of the church and that is that is humbling that is embarrassing dude that was so real are you familiar with Patrick Lencioni who wrote the book five dysfunctions of a team no he's this Catholic author and he basically works for like an HR contracting company that like supports big organizations so that they can perform more optimally it's funny because his book is technically teaching Christian values but he like I don't know if he did that intentionally or if he just jokes about not being intentional but he was or whatnot like but it's basically he's teaching people how to like communicate effectively and there was one lesson that he was teaching with the example of I forgot which basketball team it was but this guy who was like the star player and this is like a true story and I'm gonna butcher it because my memory is not that good but basically the guy who was like the star player the coach that it was like the last inning and they were like one point down and they needed it like a three pointer to win that's what the coach was like all right so we're gonna pass it to so-and-so because he's the best 3-point shooter and he's gonna have the best chance of making it and the star player was like no I'm gonna make the shot because I'm the MVP and he's like yeah but this person who's not you has the best shot at making the 3-point so we're gonna pass it to him and this is how we're gonna run the play and the guy who was like the MVP was the star player he was like no if you don't if you don't let me make this shot like I don't I'm just not a play and the coach was like okay and he just benched the the star player and they made the three-pointer and won the game but what Patrick was pointing out in his book is that like in real life it's unfortunate that people are not that honest because then it would make your job easy of like yep that's the wolf in sheep's clothing right there but nobody nobody nobody unfortunately is gonna actually be honest and me their rural attentions and be like well it's not how I want it then I want no part in it unfortunately like you said there's a lot of people who think they're Catholic but they're practicing Catholicism how they want it or they're not gonna be Catholic and it's like well then you're not Catholic because you're not loving God you're not loving the reality and the truth of God you're kind of loving what you are idealistic 'le making what you want to be the reality and truth of God and I just think it's super congruent because I mean what was like the first sin without I mean Eve it's like taking the bite from the Apple of knowledge of good and evil which if you think of it sometimes I feel like that Apple of knowledge of good and evil was more like you think you know good and evil if you actually knew reality and good and evil then you would just listen to God but it's the first thing is to think that you know more than God and that you know good and evil more than God I just I feel like that's what unfortunately is befalling like the church itself is that the people in and out of relativistic and they think that they could decide for sure for sure yeah if it's not too delicate I'd like to talk a little bit about sexual sin is it okay let's do it there's a bit of a schizophrenic attitude that most people have today about sexuality on the one hand they want to brag about it they want to flaunt it they want to have parades about it they want acceptance they want justification they want to claim that it's not vice that it's virtue and that these acts are not just their virtuous right but at the same time there's an outrage about people that practice what they're preaching right I find it very hypocritical I find it and I'm saying this as a hypocrite I know that I am a hypocrite too so I'm not looking down at the hypocrites I'm looking sideways to my fellow hypocrites because we're all hypocrites in one way or another but my point is that we're confused about sexual sin because it feels good right we want it we want more of it we want to be able to buy it I mean I just recently met what I thought was a nice old man and he admitted that he pays for sex on a regular basis and I found that disturbing not to judge this man I made I don't know all the ins notes we can only judge the objective matter this is a grave sin we can judge that we should judge that we have to judge that Jesus Christ commands us to judge that but we can't judge that he has full knowledge about what he's doing or that he has free consent of his will in what he's doing he may be compulsive and there are different factors that we cannot judge these are the subjective components of any Sinatra sexual sin but I'm digressing a lot here what I wanted to say about sexual sin is through this there's first of all that schizophrenia where people want to say that it's good and then they want to lynch anyone that's practicing what they're preaching this sort of sexual revolution that the West underwent in the late 60s is very schizophrenic in that way we want to promote it and then we want to lynch anyone that actually lives it out freely and fully so it's very schizophrenic the other thing I wanted to say was just about the overview about what it is what what is sexuality well I see it in a very very very black-and-white terms I see it as there's sex which is Catholic and then there's masturbation which is anti-catholic so bestiality is just a sophisticated form of masturbation pedophilia is just a sophisticated form of masturbation menage tois or group sex or swingers or homosexual acts or any of these sorts of things are just sophisticated forms of masturbation that's all that it is that's all that it is and when the Catholic couple when they have sex if they do something that's not Catholic it's not sex you know it's like you can make a mistake as a faithful Catholic striving to be Catholic you engage in certain activities that are not Catholic it's no longer sex it's it's suddenly you're into the realm of anti-catholic stuff it's masturbation so I like to think of it in very clear black-and-white terms where there's sex which is Catholic and then everything else that people think is sex is just a sophisticated form of masturbation what's your thought on that honestly that's like the smartest thing I've ever heard I've never thought of it that way because that's so clear and cut wow that's really interesting because that makes perfect sense because in essence if you aren't consuming the marriage correctly then you are necessarily focusing on pleasuring yourself and then it's exact but it's a sophisticated form of mastery I like oh my gosh so quotable like that's the smartest thing I've ever heard David it's open source it's weird you where did you did you come up with that on your own I'm have a lot of experience with masturbation so I don't know if that was a joke or not okay the joke's on me right the joke's on me no but Minoo I'm a repentant masturbator right so that's the thing and it's something that I've thought about a lot because it was one of the sins that dominated me during my adult life as a male I don't think that this is uncommon it's just not very common to talk about it openly which i think is part of the problem right people don't talk about these things but yeah I mean I spent years and years and years indulging in that sin and I was somewhat creative but not as creative as some of the people today but yeah it's it's the sort of thing that's very self-indulgent it's pleasurable I guess I mean since my conversion in the beginning I tried a I did not enjoy it you know and so I've had the grace I've had a lot of grace with that don't to brag about it but I could lose that grace at any moment too right but I was quite disgusted after my conversion when I did continue that habit somewhat can we talk about chess because I feel like I want to like put some meat around these bones to draw a paint a better picture for the audience of like when it comes to sex it's very much not about you it's very much a gift of self and as soon as you warp that or twist that and anyway then you're and you're necessarily not making a gift of yourself then it's an inverted masturbating thing because what you're doing is focusing on yourself and your pleasure is that is that were you trying to say yeah yeah I mean this is this is Catholic teaching and it's not complicated it's intuitive the fact that you were astonished by the simplicity of it today it's just because you already knew right you just it is intuitive so that's why you're astonished it's like yeah yeah because I've never and I've never heard anyone put it so eloquently I love that just it's it's basically that's like my new favorite word sophisticated masturbation because it's basically what it is yeah I I'm a shame I'm very deeply ashamed of my years of masturbation and not only that I'm sort of in the worst of both worlds because I'm not a virgin I wish I were a virgin for the love of God I wish I were a virgin so I'm not a virgin that's one strike against me okay but God forgives me whatever it's no big deal but on the other hand I've also never had sex I mean I've masturbated into women but I honestly can say I don't think I've ever had sex so I mean the worst of both worlds I am NOT a virgin but I've never had sex it's so pathetic it is so tragic I really really truly sincerely repent of all my sexual sins and as an atheist when I was an atheist so-called because I don't think anyone really is an atheist but when I was calling myself an atheist you know I thought that everything was okay everything not just in the realm of sexuality in terms of every thing I mean you can do literally do what you want but my eyes have been opened you know and one of the things that really astonishes me about God is how he honestly and sincerely desires our purity it's mind-boggling it really is humbling he wants us to be pure and I am so impure it's completely embarrassing but God loves me anyway you know so my listeners and your listeners I think will be encouraged by the fact that I myself David Ross a miserable worm and a faithless sinner and happy and excited to be the bride of Jesus Christ and I'm looking forward to an eternity of ecstasy and orgasmic pleasure with my lover Jesus Christ that sounds very gay but it's a mystical thing I am the Bride of Christ and we are we have so much pleasure in store for us you know we have so much pleasure in store for us I don't I'm not particularly looking forward to any kind of sexual pleasure or anything analogous to sexual pleasure but it is ecstatic orgasmic sorts of pleasure that we will be experiencing and a wide variety of pleasures and even food and drink and things that we get excited about here below there's so much emphasis in our society on the pleasures of food and drink it's it's another one of these closely related sins gluttony which I don't think our society really has addressed either I think they're both very connected in that they both require the same virtue of temperance and yeah honestly like this might just be like the best podcast of best conversation I've ever had because like you said my listeners would be like comforted and excited shoot I'm pumped look thank you for being so real you're inspirational I love it her to me you're starting to feel like you are saying no I feel like there's there's a side of me that wants to be like right there with you and like yeah like I'm a huge center like I fall into the sin of masturbation I've watch pornography not a virgin I can make the list I feel like I hit like a like a point of my life where I'm always very particular about wanting to put the right context when I talk about am I saying and I really feel like this is the right context because it's very matter-of-factly and genuine and emphasizing that repentance and valuing God above all things is the key but I always get scared cuz you know I have a background in youth ministry so I always get scared because I'm like very particular about not wanting to glamorize it because I've seen it too many times you know I don't want to be virtual signaling like I don't want to be glamorizing like or saying like oh yeah I'm a sinner just to like get like some type of like positive attention it's like no like really like I'm a sinner and I love God and you should too like seriously like I want to like keep it as matter-of-factly and honest and genuine as possible but yeah and that's that's why again I just have so much love and respect for how genuine and and and and open you've been dang I'm really really really surprised because I honestly this is part of the reason why I wanted to have a podcast in the first place was to talk about things of this nature that are difficult to talk about but give it like an honest genuine real look at it though I think one of the first things we said was no we don't talk about this enough can we talk about this we don't talk about this enough because that's exactly the case and I think that again without glamorizing it talking about it in a matter-of-fact way is is very helpful because you can gain perspective of like okay I don't have to like crush myself with guilt because I'm not the only one who's a senator there's all the sinners too but I'm very much kin despite my sin love God like it's possible like it seems it seems like contradictory but it's really not because it's His grace it's letting me overcome this and I did want to say to the listeners when you confronted with a pedophile priest or something like that one of these monsters in the hierarchy I want you to think about without excusing their sin I want you to think about how difficult it would be after having hid their sin for so long and after having perpetrated such criminal and heinous and horrible actions for so long how hard it must be to repent first of all in front of God Almighty and the confessional how hard that must be and how hard it must be to save face in front of family friends the clergy and all that just think about it for a minute it's not easy it's really not easy it is a huge cross I don't envy these people I don't mock and ridicule these people I have a lot of sympathy and compassion for these people some of them are bound for hell and they are unrepentant and they are hardened of hurt okay but there's always a chance that they will say yes to go it's grace and God's grace you can guarantee that God is working on their hurt he is working 24/7 he does not sleep Satan doesn't sleep either but it's up to the individual to choose or they're gonna say yes to go I don't know but just have some compassion on even the most horrible horrible horrible example of a pedophile priest have compassion there but for the grace of God go I there but for the grace of God go you believe it it's a fact it's a reality there is no reason why you could not be just as horrible a sinner and maybe you are maybe you are think about it it's really humbling it's really hard have compassion on these people let's make it easier for them to repent let's make it easier for them to go to confession let's make it easier let's not make it easier though to excuse their sin let's not make it easier to dismiss it or to say that it's okay it's not okay no sin is okay so we need to draw that fine line but we need to be firm and we need to be compassionate so that's all I wanted to say about that so somebody used remind me someone smarter than me told me once like like when you see someone who is doing something like really horrendous and horrible think about what it would take for you to do that and be that way and that's probably exactly what happened to them and I always remember it because when I was told that it like totally put my feet on the ground like yeah like you like you said like that could be me it could like and and and I totally 100% agree with that we should be coming at this situation with that perspective like let's not make it any harder than it is for them to repent because like at the end of the day I don't wish Hell on anyone and I like the thing that excites me is that at least they're not gonna be able to live in sin explicitly anymore given the that they're gonna be having quite the spotlight on them but yeah what are your motives for creating your podcast the main motive was to meet people and to make friends because I'm just very very isolated I'm an introvert socially awkward and just not a lot of people like me you know honestly people liked me before my conversion they liked me when I was not Catholic because I didn't contradict them when they preached another gospel right so they really liked me now I shouldn't want to be liked by man I shouldn't succumb to human respect but I do need people I do need to have contact with people so that's one motivation just to meet people and to have friends and to be a little bit less isolated number two is to be challenged in my faith I don't want to believe a false religion if Jesus Christ he's not who he claims to be I'm not interested okay I love and respect him because he's human but if he's a false messiah I'm not gonna waste my time you know so that was a big big big big motivation for me find out are the chinks in my armor are there holes in my belief system you know I world view and I can honestly say that it is really really embarrassing how little ammunition anyone has against Jesus Christ is really embarrassing I think if anyone were to objectively look at the arguments against Christianity they would become Catholic instantly if they had an open mind and if they were not in love with their sins this is the main problem the problem is not intellectual it's the problem resides in the will we don't want to love God because we love our sin st. Augustine talked about this in his confessions we are so in love with ourselves and with their little pleasures and it's here and now I don't know what tomorrow holds I don't know what the afterlife holds but I know that when I am engaging in this or that it feels good I feel good and I sleep well at night and I'm not too guilt-ridden I've got my justification my rationalization and I've got a whole Posse around me applauding me and encouraging me and giving me awards for being a sinner so why would I believe in some outdated fairy tale and limit the amount of pleasures that I can have in the show life when I don't know what's gonna happen so I understand why people resist the truth I understand I resisted for 25 years I resisted myself but God touched me he I had the grace I was seeking I was looking I was reading I was studying philosophy I was even reading the Bible as a critic of Christianity I was reading it nonetheless it was coming and the messages were coming in to me against my will and I was touched by the grace of God and I converted so that's number two to be challenged in my faith it's pathetic how little there is to challenge Christianity it's really pathetic the third reason and the one I'm most excited about is the perpetual masses that I buy for all my guests this is the most exciting thing this is probably the best thing that I've ever done is buying these perpetual masses for people it's infinite Grace's every day till the end of time for each one of my guests and I like to say it's if you're a guest on my podcast you have won the spiritual lottery you have won the lottery you and your family everyday are getting infinite graces of the mass whether you take advantage of those Grace's is up to you right and each member of your family will have to decide on some mystical level if they're going to take advantage of those Grace's that come because it's very subtle when God touches you and God asks you do you love me in the middle of the night when you're all alone and you're you know in the depths of despair or if you're just deep in thought or whatever and that thought comes to you and God touches you and he says what do you say who do you say that I am it's very personal it's very intimate and each and every person will have a chance to say yes or to say something other than yes and anything other than yes isn't know so I said yes I I pray when I said yes to God one of the first things I did is said God let it be fertile soil let my yes be on fertile soil let that yes give more yeses one yes is not good enough I need that yes to give more yeses and yes and yes and yes and yes every day on and on and on and on it's called perseverance I need to persevere to the end if I don't persevere to the end all is for naught it was all just a big joke it was a waste of time and I'll be burning in hell for all eternity regretting that first yes because that first yes will Riis my pains in hell so every yes that I give is upping the ante every yes that I give day after day after day when I'm saying yes give me more give me more give me more it's increasing the risk of the gambit that I'm taking because if I end up in hell I will have more punishment not less so a lot of the atheists that I talked to say well why would I want to start into that game and the reason is because it's the purpose of your life you are made by God and made for God you have to say yes and just because it's risky it doesn't mean that you can somehow avoid it ignorance is bliss if it's genuine ignorance but if you know and Here I am telling you that you have to say yes and you've thought about it yourself and you've had some graces so you know that it's true you're already in the game you have to just keep saying yes and yes and yes so all of this to say that the the infinite graces of the mass I really believe that it is an underrated thing that we have access to as Catholics usually people when their grandfather dies or something like that they buy a Mass you know at the local parish people pay $15 and they get one mass but I pay $15 and I get a Mass every day I don't understand why someone would pay just for one mass when for the same donation because you're not buying a Mass you're making a donation to a religious organization in my case I donate to the Scalabrine fathers of st. charles in chicago illinois i have a connection with them through my one of my parishes that i attend during the week and the reason I was drawn to that parish is because of blessed Berta Longo who was a Satanist and I was a Satanist before I became a Catholic so it's a long story but basically I ended up at this parish Our Lady of Pompeii which is connected to Blessed Bertolo Luongo and there I was able to buy these perpetual masses and when I say by I don't mean by I mean you make a donation and then your name goes on the list and the prayer intentions are there and the masses are said for you also you and your family so that really is the most exciting thing about my podcast are people going to be entertained by my guests yeah a lot of my guests have a lot of insight a lot of unique perspective I always ask for by a graphical information who this person is how are they raised what experience they have with religion if any and I interview people of all different faith backgrounds different worldviews and most exciting and antagonistic anti-catholic guests so I've been a little bit disappointed with the non-catholic guests in some ways although it's really fun it's always a slice of life to get to know how someone was raised and what they believe and why they believe it and there's some pretty wacky and weird beliefs out there I've had a lot of people surprised me by some of the things that they believe and it's always interesting to hear about it and I always try to plant a little a little bit of a seed gently about Jesus Christ in the Catholic Church but I'm most excited about the faithful Catholics just because they speak my language you know there is a brotherhood there is a communion of saints and this is something I wanted to say to you in connection with the scandal in the church we are not individuals we are a body we are a flock we are a flock of sheep and we are if we're moving if we're following Jesus Christ who is the Good Shepherd if we're following the Good Shepherd we recognize his voice okay it's not this is not some kind of difficult discernment to make if you have good will and you're honest with yourself it is not rocket science to figure out who's a faithful Catholic leader who's who is part of your flock moving with you and who's moving against the stream you know who's who's climbing over the fence over the gate and who is the true Shepherd and who is a false Shepherd and it's really not that hard so this idea of being a member of a body I think is something that's brand new to me and it's something that's meditating a lot on this these days because I'm something of an individualist I'm something of an eccentric weirdo loner introvert and I'm finding comfort in the fact that hey you know what I'm part of this communion this communion of saints and it's it's very new for me it's very interesting and it's very comforting not only because you know you can have friendships in this sort of thing that's nice but there is a certain amount of pressure that's taken off of my shoulders by the very fact that hey you know what I'm moving with this group of sheep and your individual moments where you pause or you tie your shoes and then you're running you catch up with the flock or you maybe you turn your head and you look at like some really sexy black sheep that's going in the opposite direction you know you're attracted you're tempted and you see some rebel that catches your eye and you maybe even have some fantasy about wow that must be fun to be a rock-and-roll rebel and a follower of Satan not to be a lot of fun and maybe you entertained some ideas but the fact is that you're a good sheep you're following the good heard the good flock you recognize the voice of Jesus Christ and you repent of all these evil temptations that you may succumb to as you wander over the pasture you know I mean so it's something that I'm drawing strength from this communion of saints and the church as a body of faithful it gives me a lot of comfort and I'm starting to meditate on that more and more just to understand that salvation is not an individualistic project it really is not but in our Western American culture it's so focused on individualism that I just by my very nature by the air that I breathe I just assume that it's my project my project is as an individual meet all the criteria go to heaven live happily ever after but it's not like that it's a community so I need help with that and if you have anything to say to help me we can talk about that but I think you're part of a community down there I think that you because you're youth minister and that sort of thing I think you have a lot more of an intuitive natural healthy organic understanding of what I'm just now starting to glean actually I was gonna say to that point that probably podcasting is like been the best maneuver I've made actually I'm thinking about going to Texas to work with a organization of youth ministers over there but what I wanted to tell you namely about the podcast is that that's like such a life hack in regards to like Catholicism because then everyone wins because when you create authentic Catholic content then someone who is authentically striving to love our Lord will necessarily benefit from it and those who authentically aren't will not so automatically the people who are listening to your show are the type of people that you want to surround yourself with and it's like such a huge huge huge multiplier of like just just graces it's like weird I was taught how to podcast by a good friend of mine and he kind of warned me about that he was like the best part of podcasting is the community and I'm like really cuz one person listens to my show and it's like my mom because I started yesterday he's like no really like you'll see and I was like okay but if you wanted my opinion on it I feel like you're on the right track because this is necessarily gonna keep connecting you with more and more people what are your plans for the future do you have anything outside of podcasting that you want to get into because I know you have your YouTube channel as well are you gonna stretch out to any other social medias well I mean you you're sort of nudging me towards Instagram I got to put some content on there and do something with that but I'm really annoyed by a social media but I do meet people like I think I may have met you know I met you on YouTube right mm-hmm but my plans that I'm excited for in the future are not very ambitious or exciting for anyone else but for me it's a little bit exciting what I'm going to - I've just decided I told you that I don't have a webcam so I'm looking at you but you're not looking at me but I bought one today and the reason I bought it is I'm gonna start live streaming and the reason I'm gonna do that on YouTube the reason I'm gonna do that is only so that I can have more viewership so I'm gonna have short unedited content on a more regular basis instead of doing like labor-intensive I record for an hour and a half and it takes me like a week a week and a half two weeks to edit because I'm working full-time I could just go live warts-and-all um oz coughs laughs spits whatever and it doesn't matter I mean the it doesn't have to I don't need to chop out every um in every aw it can just be what it is you know and it'll be primarily to up the listenership from my regular content which will be the interviews and then just the meditations that I do I always improvise everything my interviews aren't revised I don't have notes I don't have prepared questions for my guests it's just it's pretty much the same format tell me about yourself what do you believe and why you know and then end with a nice thought for the listener because there are a lot of people that are sad and oppressed out there right we need we need hope in this world even if you're an atheist I've had some of the most touching uplifting messages from the atheists you know they they know what it is to be depressed they know what it is to have a bleak outlook and to struggle to find something to hold on to so it really is quite moving when you consider that that some of these messages of hope that you get from the atheists are even better than some of the messages I've had from religious people but everyone's unique everyone performs differently under pressure like on a podcast you can't just expect everyone to have the same skillset when it comes to public speaking and people get nervous and stuff like that and there are a lot of times where I speak to people under pressure and then as soon as I'm outside of the pressured situation I'm like oh I should have said this and I shouldn't have said that and I didn't represent my worldview there and so I understand that people aren't giving exactly a perfect representation of what they wanted to say necessarily but I'm excited about the live-streaming because it will bring viewers it will get me more hits on YouTube and it will bring it more to the channel and what does that mean it means more interviews and it means more perpetual masses that's the part that I'm excited ab