here in Liz knee part two so what's been on your mind and what sort of theological issues would you like to discuss today there's there's a couple major areas I thought we could talk about Sola scriptura for one Catholic Church tradition and the Magisterium and how that relates to Sacred Scripture mary ology of course and then justification so those are like the big four areas all of it really does come down to ultimate authority so if I might ask you why is the idea that Scripture is the ultimate authority something that is not a pertinent point for you to at least look further into or why is it something that you think is just a completely non viable option well you just look at history right does the history teach us that the infallible table of contents fell from the sky into someone's lap or does the history teach us that it was a bunch of Catholics getting together in council hammering it out and using their god-given authority to put the stamp of approval on this particular set of books among many many candidates so you have to acknowledge the authority of the Catholic Church well I mean I I agree in one sense that it was the Catholic Church that closed the Canon of Scripture at the Council of Trent but the Catholic Church did not just codify the Canon of Scripture willy-nilly it was something that obviously was made evident through the Holy Spirit but there was a pragmatic way that they wanted out doing it the first was antiquity the second was a pistol isset II the third was Christian orthodoxy and the fourth was the universality of it wasn't accepted by the people so looking at antiquity could they see in the way that it was written did it go back to the time of the Apostles and to look at the APUs dallisa T they were looking for somebody that was an apostle or somebody that was close to an apostle looking for Orthodoxy they were checking to see if what they knew by word of mouth comported with the scripture and then universality of it how many of the Church Fathers could they find that were quoting these same scriptures that they were trying to approve I mean we have throughout the first 300 years of Christendom the Church Fathers single-handedly in their writings quoted all but about six verses of the entire New Testament Origen had his own list of 27 books of the New Testament that happened to be the actual Canon of Scripture Irenaeus had about 21 or 22 Agustin had close to the 27 and I just don't understand if Catholics want to say that Protestants don't have justification for using the Canon of Scripture would they not have to say the same thing about the church fathers who saw no qualms and using the scripture that they were using even though it was prior to the councils of Carthage Hippo in the Council of Trent there's no controversy when you tell me that the Church Fathers drew on the authority of Scripture obviously that's what we have to do we we are creatures and we depend on the infallible authority of God through his word that's a fact but what you're failing to see is that once something is established as defined we are not free to tamper with it okay so when you start teaching contrary to that doctrine you're in deep trouble well I have no problem following church tradition when the doctrine it is espousing can either explicitly or at least implicitly be found in Scripture but there is doctrine that the Catholic Church will openly admit has no basis in Scripture for instance the Assumption of Mary one of the foremost Catholic apologist Carl Keating I'm sure you known from Catholic Answers specifically says in his book Catholicism and fundamentalism fundamentalist asks where do you get this notion of the Assumption of Mary strictly speaking there is none there's an openness in the church it's an open question in the church when we ask the church do all dogmas go back to something that is explicitly to be found in Scripture or do some of them rely exclusively on tradition the church says we don't know yet it's not defined yet so you could find an example of someone that's very confident in his school that's going to say well yeah there are examples like the Assumption of Mary or whatever it is that rely exclusively on tradition but there would be someone in the other camp that will say no it has to go back to Scripture so it's not actually the case that all of the scholars agree with that quote that you just gave there are two major camps and it's an open question which means that we don't need to lay an awake at night worrying about it it's not essential to my salvation to know which part of tradition is independent of the written word of God it's not essential to my salvation that I know that if you want to know what's essential to be saved go to the Catholic Church it's that simple yeah but it's not that simple David because sure I don't have to know how tradition in Scripture work hand in hand with one another however it is essential to use my god-given reasoning to determine if whether or not the tradition that's being told to me is actually accurate and something that I should be believing in this idea that we have to submit our mind completely and just believe something even if we can't understand it that's okay we're not going to understand everything but we do have a duty to at least try and ascertain what it is that's being given to us Scripture is made very clear and such plain words that the essential truths for the Christian faith justification grace the Christology of Jesus the nature of the Trinity all of these essential doctrines are made so plain in Scripture but now it's the ecclesiastical body that has primacy over everything and that's when you start getting into hot water so whereas I believe in Sola scriptura you believe in Sola ecclesia and it's not something that we can establish from Scripture we don't have any examples of people bowing their knee to an ultimate authority that is not from a prophet of God or from the very word of God there's no example that can be shown to that effect I have an example for you go ahead Matthew 23 3 the scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat so practice and observe everything they tell you but do not do what they do for they do not practice what they preach tie up heavy burdensome loads and lay them on men's shoulders but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them nothing has changed it's the same thing today if people complain about corruption in the church just go straight to Matthew 23 3 do what they say and so when Jesus Christ the Godman said to Peter and the Apostles what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven he wasn't joking around he conferred Authority infallible authority on Peter the Apostles and their successors yes that is spoken to Peter but it says I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven future tense go to chapters in front of that the beginning of Matthew 18 all of the apostles are arguing about who's going to be greatest and what does Jesus do he pulls a child aside and says unless you become like this child you shall not enter Heaven then go to Matthew 18:18 when he's talking about reconciliation and he says to all of the disciples who are present I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven it's an exact word for word verbatim what he just said to Peter two paragraphs before and Peter is the first one to preach to the Jews on Pentecost and he's the first one to preach to the Gentiles then all of the other disciples that also were told that they were going to obtain the keys of the kingdom did the same thing that Peter did but after him so you have the same you have a literal parallel between Matthew and the Acts of the Apostles where you see this in action where he is literally opening and there's even a reference in the scripture that says Peter opened the door to the Gentiles for salvation so if we're going to base something as huge as the the papal supremacy you know over 1.2 billion people's heads and say that salvation hinges on that we better make darn sure that there's at least more than the Matthew 16 reference to Jesus giving Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven it's just not convincing the way to sort of cut this Gordian knot because it can get very hairy and messy when we start passages from the Bible the way to cut this Gordian knot is to simply tell me where is the church today where can I find the church how can I join the church where is the church that Jesus Christ built it's very simple and I said this the last time the Jew and I spoke the church is not one single institution it is a spiritual institution upon which we all are little stones that are being built up into the temple of God just as scripture says there are real Christians in Church of God there are real Christians and Presbyterian churches there are real Christians in the Catholic Church there are real Christians all over as long as they hold to the central and core doctrines of the Christian faith which are how are we justified obviously the person of Jesus Christ how did he come to dwell upon earth who is God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit what is the nature of Scripture all of these things these are all central doctrines and this trope being thrown around that there's twenty eight thousand different Protestant denominations it's baloney it's total baloney if you take down all these peripheral issues always at paedo baptism where is it great Oh baptism oh we should celebrate the Eucharist quarterly no we should do a monthly no we should do it every time we get together if we could stop fussing about these things the core Christian tenants would still be there that is the whole point that is the Church of God David it's not Jesus said wherever one or two gather in my name there I will be also so it's not in any one institution in any one physical building it is in the spiritual body of Christ God did not leave us orphans and Jesus Christ said it's better for you that I go God promised that there will always be a visible hierarchy a visible government in his church that he built so would I rather have Jesus Christ walking the earth or would I rather have the Catholic Church I'd rather have the Catholic Church why because it's better it's better for me even Jesus Christ left and he sent His Holy Spirit to guide us His Holy Spirit is the soul of this mystical body which is the Catholic Church it's better for me but you don't have that you can't say that you have to contradict Jesus Christ and you have to say well it would actually be better for me as a Protestant if Jesus Christ were walking the earth today that's what you have to say or you have to point me to the mystical body of Jesus Christ which Paul talks about very clearly otherwise you're contradicting our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ it's that simple I don't see a contradiction in regards to my point that we're still one with other believers who happen to be of a different denomination or whatever well then why all the fuss if we have Christian unity as you're claiming then why all the fuss oh because because we disagree on essential truths now obviously we agree on some pretty big ones you know if we agree on the Trinity we agree on the deity of Christ and a number of things but we also disagree on some essentials well I believe all of it on the authority of the Holy Roman Catholic Church you believe it based on private judgment of dusty old book and st. Agustin famously said I would not believe that dusty old book were it not for the authority of the Holy Roman Catholic Church and he's not alone in that it's the only way to approach religion to bow to a god-given Authority and your private judgment is not a god-given Authority it's not the Holy Spirit contradicting yourself right well I mean this is from Augustine whereas therefore in every question which relates to life and conduct not only teaching but excerpt ation also is necessary in order that by teaching we may know what is to be done and by exer patient may be incited not to think it ARC's them to do what we already know is to be done what more can I eat you than what we read in the Apostles for Holy Scripture establishes a rule to our teaching that we dare not be wiser than we ought quoting scripture there be wise as he himself says unto soberness according as unto each God has allotted the measure of faith again he's quoting scripture be it not therefore for me to teach you any other thing safe to expound to you the words of the teacher and to treat of them as the Lord shall have given to me for reasonings of any man whatsoever even though they be true Christians and of high reputation are not to be treated by us in the same way as the canonical scriptures are treated we are at liberty without doing any violence to the respect which these men deserve to condemn and reject anything in their writings if perchance we shall find that they have entertained opinions differing from that which others or we ourselves have by the divine help discovered to be the truth ideal thus with the writings of others and I wish my intelligent readers to deal dust with mine that is the most wise thing that I've heard outside of Scripture in regards to Scripture you keep hammering this point that the Scriptures are valuable I know that they're valuable and I know it on the authority of the Holy Roman Catholic Church you know it by private judgment no I know it because scripture tells me so you know it because you say the church tells you so well you said something interesting earlier you said that it's very clear all of the central saving truths those doctrines are very clear for anyone that reads Scripture I highly disagree because there's so much contention and so much disagreement among professed Christians pertaining to even such fundamental things as free will grace sanctification and justification not to mention of course ecclesiology I mean there's so much that is contentious that it seems absurd to me that you would say that it's crystal clear when you read the scriptures what the proper interpretation is I think that when you read scripture without any bias to it whatsoever you're going to get clearer answers but I wanted to ask you about John 6 since you're all about clear and straightforward interpretation of the Scriptures what do you make of John 6 this is in regards to the Eucharist yeah if you don't eat my flesh and drink my blood you're doomed my okay so let me pull it out really quick okay Jesus said to them very truly I tell you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have no life in you whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise them up at the last day for my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I and then just as the living father sent me and I live because of the father so the one who feeds on me will live because of me this is the bread that came down from heaven your ancestors ate manna and died but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever he said this while teaching in the synagogue at Capernaum on hearing it many of his disciples said this is a hard teaching who can accept it aware that his disciples were grumbling about this jesus said to them does this offend you then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he does before the Spirit gives life the flesh counts for nothing the words I have spoken to you they are full of spirit and life yet there are some of you who do not believe for Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him he went on to say this is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the father has enabled them so right there in verse 63 the Spirit gives life the flesh counts for nothing the words I have spoken to you they are full of spirit and of life that is the key to interpreting the rest of that then he compares it to the Ascension then what if you see the Son of Man ascent to where he was before he's contrasting the amazement of what he's saying with what they're going to see something too inexplicable things at one time saying you're not going to believe this these words are spirit so that is how I would interpret that passage but then go further down the line to the Last Supper when you see Jesus break the bread and pour the drink and he of course gives what Catholics believe to be the first appointment of the mass well there's a couple problems with that number one Jesus hadn't died for sins yet Catholics say well it's his death is outside of space and time so it did affect that Eucharist okay but Jesus is fully intact did you hear Santa what's san agustin said about that about our Lord holding himself in his own hands at the Last Supper I did not read that no but my question to you is how do you interpret his words that you have to eat his flesh and drink his blood that it was a very simple question I'd like a simple answer place what do you think he meant oh I think that he means partake of him fully I think that he mean be one with Jesus I think it's quite simple I think there is an institution of the Eucharist and it there is possibly a real presence that comes alongside of it a form of consubstantiation as opposed to transubstantiation that's what Luther said yeah that's totally fine yeah but that's a 16th century a novelty to say that this is something that didn't crop up until the sixteenth century that's kind of the pot calling the kettle black man you have so many doctrines in the Catholic Church that don't crop up until sometimes even a millennia laughter Christendom has been established yeah but I have a church and I have authority so that's the difference that you're just willing to believe blindly that you're not willing to check with Scripture you're totally okay with the fact that the Assumption of Mary is not in Scripture there's not even a hint of it sure there is yeah we have the example of Enoch being taken to heaven without dying that's Genesis 5:24 then we have Elijah assumed into heaven and the fiery chariot 2nd Kings 2:11 and then we have many saints who have fallen asleep were raised in Matthew 27 52 and then you have those that are caught up to meet the Lord in the air this is 1st Thessalonians 4:17 then you have first Corinthians 15:52 we shall be instantly changed at the last trumpet and then we have Romans 6:23 for the wages of sin is death and then we have revelation 11 19 and 12:1 the ark in heaven is the woman clothed with the Sun that's just for my little cheat sheet and then I've got a book of dogmas that gives it formal explanation of all the scriptural passages I'll look that up while you're talking okay yes so my Mary of course we know that there were people in alkalizer that ascended into heaven technically incorrect to say that they ascended into heaven we would say that they were assumed because it's a pastor thing only God can ascend but we we can be assumed by God okay so with that in mind again I just don't see the scriptural support to say that Mary was assumed into heaven and the first time that we start to see the assumption marry creep into the church is in a body of work from the 5th and 6th centuries that were proven false they were basically a bunch of Gnostic Gospels that were written by a bunch of over pious people who essentially worshipped Mary and tried to forge these documents by showing that they were from the earliest centuries of Christendom one example is a pseudo John the theologian from the Dormition of the Holy Mother of God that's from the 5th century the pseudo Melito of Sardis the passing of the Blessed Mary from the 5th century pseudo Cyril of Jerusalem from the discourse on Mary the mother of God from the fifth slash 6th century pseudo of odious of Rome so on and so forth so that's when we first start to see the Assumption and many Pope's around it condemned it because there was no way from Scripture to back that up and it's pointless to speculate it's not pointless to speculate there's much pious speculation in church history and it's an essential component but the Catholic Church thinks that it's pointless to speculate on interpretations of Scripture no it's not we're encouraged to interpret Scripture we have a lot of freedom in the church but it has to conform to the doctrines of Rome well once something is established by God Almighty and follow Blee its foolishness to argue against God right it's foolishness and it's a damnable sin yeah but is the source that it's coming from actually God well that's the question that's the fundamental question where is the infallible church that the god man established when he was on earth we need a sure way of knowing what are the essential saving truths you don't have that but I have that because I have a visible church with a visible hierarchy and this is the fundamental difference between my world view and your world view is that I have security that I have the church that Jesus Christ built I know where to find it I know the URL of the website I know what the essential teachings are I know where I can speculate where I'm not allowed to speculate and I have all of that but you don't have that you just have your Bible and your interpretation of your Bible and of course you are willing to listen to those who you admire in history like Luther Calvin or whoever it is that you that you trust I'm also willing to test them yeah of course but it's all it all comes down to you it all comes down to your private judgment that's the difference well it says the Holy Spirit will guide us in all truth yes so then what are you worried about why you were about myself and your brother and your father if that's the case because I don't believe that you're being led by the Holy Spirit I believe that you're being I just I just I just believe that you're being led by a man who's claiming to be the Vicar of Jesus Christ you guys are positing the truth claim that you have the authority all Protestants are doing is trying to take a step back and say hey I don't know if that's true let's subject this to something the problem with the papacy and quote/unquote papal infallibility is that it's subject to nothing but itself it is something that is totally selfish shirring no it's a mystical marriage of st. Paul said it's a deep mystery but why can you not direct me to the church it why is it invisible why don't you organize yourselves and have a set of writings that can propagate the established truths the essential saving truth is why don't you put them all together on a website so that Christians can find it right I I think you're actually right there are a lot of sites that state their profession of faith in what you will find almost unanimously unless it's some extreme sect of Christianity you're going to find the same basic truths on core essential salvific doctrinal issues so they won't have any issue signing up to sign on to your website then right are you trying to push me into making a website no but I mean I am being facetious I think you know that I think you know that I don't believe that you have the one true religion but you're resisting entering into the church I think because you are proud and you don't want to obey you want to do your own thing that's the main reason why people stay outside of the church because they don't want to submit they don't a bow to a man even if it's a man that's appointed by God to be the Vicar of Christ I mean it's just pride that's how I see it Jesus is the head jesus has always been the head yeah he's still had but if we look at any of the non Catholic Christian bodies what we see is a decline in morality we see that divorce is accepted we see that contraception is accepted we see that abortion is accepted we see a pattern we always see the same pattern if I look at the history of the church that you'd like to go to and look at the history of that church it will have a history and it will go back to the Catholic Church and we see how they dropped one doctrine after another and one sacrament after another until they're left with Bible alone or whatever these core doctrines are that you claim are the Christian truths is just a historical fact look at the history to be steeped in history is to cease to be Protestant to be steeped in history is to see the folly of the Catholic Church is really what it is when you are merely talking about Scripture and you compare it to Bible believing evangelical churches today you will find a much closer representation of the early church than you will with the Catholic Church in regards to the priesthood there was no priesthood for the first few hundred years of Christendom in regards to the priesthood you see a bunch of additions added to it like for instance the forced celibacy if you go to first Timothy chapter 4 verses one to five here's what Paul says to Timothy the spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons such teachings come through hypocritical liars whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron they forbid people to marry Catholic priests were forbidden and 1139 to marriage now you can say that they opt into that knowing full well that they are not going to be allowed to stay married but whereas today if a Catholic priest comes into the priesthood and he's already married he's allowed to keep his wife back in those times he was forced to disavow his wife he was not allowed to have any children with her and many of them became prostitutes and died in the streets because the priests were so forced into celibacy because the church was interested when making sure that they didn't produce heirs that could lay claim to their riches or to their property this is historical fact that the Catholic Church abused the priesthood and used it as a means to obtain more wealth more property and today the Vatican is the wealthiest landowner in the entire world they own more property than any other conglomeration on this the whole universe is Catholic so everything is owned by the church because the church is one with Jesus Christ the church owns everything and the thing is that marriage is a sacrament okay so who has a higher view of marriage me the Catholic are you the Protestant who has a higher view of marriage just tell me honestly okay yes I'll say you have the higher view of marriage because you see it as a sacrament yes so I mean it's just a bit of a straw man argument what you're proposing there and that's a very common one but if you came to believe that the Holy Roman Catholic Church is the one true church established by the Godman Jesus Christ would you join it of course I want to go where Christ leads me okay now set me up with something to ask me if I would be tempted to join the Protestant church how would that work I don't think that you would be convinced to join the Protestant Church because you say there are many things that you have hard-lined in your doctrine that if she found out to not be true you would abandon Jesus Christ the first time that I heard you say it you said that if he found out that Mary had other sons and daughters you would abandon Jesus Christ that is the most silly thing I have ever heard unless it's true us it's true but she just didn't say that his mom didn't have any other kids the Pope infallibly defined that that was so but that was that was 600 years after Christ so why why do you have to disavow crisis somebody who said something about him was dishonest or misinformed either God's given us an infallible Authority which he has in Scripture a living Authority it is a living it's the Living Word of God then we don't have any problem doing for not acquiescing and bowing to the one true Holy Catholic Church yet I say that your being proud and not bowing to Scripture I do part of the scripture but but but you don't though you bow primarily to the Roman Catholic Church you put the Magisterium over tradition and over Scripture and you by necessity you have to because the church is the only one that can infallibly interpret Scripture and tradition the church has infallibly declared that she is the servant of the word of God so what is the word of God as Jesus Christ what is the Catholic Church it's Jesus Christ who instituted the sacrament Jesus Christ who built the church Jesus Christ it's all Jesus Christ whereas in your Protestant worldview it comes down to your private judgment that's a reality it may be disagreeable to admit it but that's reality it's private judgment and I'm submitting to Jesus Christ Jesus Christ in the word the Word made flesh the word in Scripture and a mystical body the church did a million other points just got brought up in my mind can I just carry out this by saying that you and I are gonna have to do like a part three at some point or something yeah yeah sure what we need to do is we need to really nail down something where we can make progress one way or the other and I can tell you I'm not gonna budge I'm not gonna but I mean well I'm not gonna say that I'm not gonna budge because if I did find the Catholic Church to be the one true church of Jesus Christ and of course I would submit to it yeah whereas there's nothing you could say ever that would make me Protestant ever see that's sad I need a living authority you have it it's scripture scripture is the living breathing Word of God if God breathed it what does that mean the very breath of God have you read any bad commentary or bad interpretation of Scripture and compared it with the interpretation of the Saints it comes alive it's a living weapon that comes alive in the hands of a master the hands of an inspired saint which things any saint all right well so then let's go to a doctor of the church Saint Alphonsus Liguori sure one of my favorites it's very very beautiful poet it seems like very misguided in fact let me just caveat this by saying that this is totally important to me and if there are people listening that disagree with this you know I apologize for these but I find these pretty damnable things to say but this is from Saint Alphonsus Liguori so here's a first quote the Most Holy Virgin immaculate my mother Mary to thee who art the mother of my lord the queen of the universe the advocate the hope the refuge of sinners I who am the most miserable of all sinners have recourse this day i venerate the great Queen and I thank thee for the many Grace's thou has bestowed upon me even unto this day in particular for having delivered to me from hell which I had so often deserved by my sins I loved the most dear lady and for the love I bear thee I promise to serve thee willingly for ever and to do what I can to make thee loved by others also I place in be all my hopes for salvation accept me as thy servant and shelter me under thy mantle now who art the mother of mercy it goes on and on but that is as clear as it gets he's placing his hopes for salvation in somebody who can't save him he's counting on her to deliver him from hell she can't do that here's another one he who wishes to find Jesus will do so only by having recourse to Mary really no person has ever found Jesus Christ unless they went through Mary let's see here's another one did woe to him who neglects to recommend himself to Mary and thus closes the channel of grace closes the channel of grace the channel and grace comes from Jesus Christ in his salvific work on the cross yeah it comes from the head through the neck Mary is the neck so you can't interpret and you can't execute anything in scripture that says that the only thing Mary she is highly favored yes full of grace full of grace is actually favored one but you cannot execute anything from scripture that says that Jesus Christ came through Mary as a man the man Christ Jesus came through Mary she did not bear God she bore God the son in his humanity she is of course subject to him which I know you would agree with but all of this language this is approved by the Vatican this entire work of Saint Alphonsus Liguori all this is approved how can you look at that and say that that's a proper exegesis of Scripture you're getting that from nowhere it says Mary obtain salvation for all who have recourse to her oh if all sinners have recourse to Mary who would ever be lost he who is protected by her will be saved he who is not will be lost and you know what this kind of talk has led to people believing that if they die with a brown scapular on that they're going to be taken out purgatory another doctrine I completely disagree with the Saturday after they die people place so much trust in Mary because they have a scared view of who Jesus is that most Catholics I know that you're not one of them but most Catholics look in Jesus is someone who is indifferent whose heart and they look at God the Father as someone who is absolutely terrifying Mary obtains the salvation oh we go to Mary and then she will petition and they have to listen to Mary oh really when Mary was beckoning Jesus to come out when he was talking to the disciples he said who is my mother and my brothers I'll tell you those who do the will of my father are my mother my brother and my sister and he completely rejected going outside to Mary his grieving mother at that time who also when the parallel text talks about how his family and then it says Mary and his brothers went to go find him thought that he was out of his mind so where do you get this idea that Mary can obtain for you salvation it's totally absurd it doesn't make any sense at all and to say that yes do my interpretation of Scripture I'm not a biblical scholar but you don't have to be what did the eunuch say he didn't even understand how to really basically or interpret the scripture of Isaiah before Philip said to him and explain to him what it was and then he says oh wow so this unlearned man is then said he then says well what must I do to get baptized what does Philip say believe and you shall be baptized yeah the church instructed him and he submitted to the church for the sacraments and it's all very Catholic that's that's again that's your interpretation that plain text shows that individuals who are not academics they're just the run-of-the-mill it is scripture is so clear on the essential he could not even he could not understand unless someone showed him that's the point he could not understand unless someone showed him and an apostle showed him he's he represents the church so the church gave him what he could not derive from the scriptures on his own he said how can I understand unless someone teaches me yeah so this is accent 13 verse 10 through 12 as soon as it was night the believer sent Paul and Silas away to Berea on arriving there they went to the Jewish synagogue now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica for they received the message with great meekness and examine the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true as a result many of them believed as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men and those Bereans that unfortunately left Paul aside and said no I don't believe you they were of more noble character than the Thessalonians because at least they checked the Scriptures they just came up with an erroneous interpretation you can't explain your way out of that one well I can't explain what way out of it I have no idea what your point is okay so we have the word many here many of them believed many women many Greek men you do not see all of the Bereans following Paul after they have interpreted scripture for themselves to see if what he was saying was true many of them believed which proves my point that some of the Bereans who studied the scriptures did not see fit to follow Paul or to follow Jesus Christ after that fact that they tried interpreting the scriptures to see if what Paul was saying was true he allowed them to interpret the scripture for themselves yeah I don't see a problem with that I told you at the outset the church gives us a lot of freedom in interpreting Scripture there very few passages that are nailed down so this story about Bereans is not about a bunch of rebels that are contradicting Jesus Christ right so you think I'm a rebel you think that I'm a rebel that's disagreeing with Jesus Christ yeah private judgment the key point is obedience you need to be submissive and obedient to the mystical body of Jesus Christ no no yes but you understand that I can say that the Pope is using private judgment to pronounce infallibility on certain scriptures right yeah because you obviously if you believed what I believe you'd be Catholic so I mean that goes without saying that you think he's full of baloney not entirely full of baloney just most of the time but um you know at the end of my interviews I'd like to leave a positive message for the listener if you would please yes so obviously this stuff is all pretty hairy we get into some pretty deep and nasty water when we talk about this stuff you know we obviously have a lot of differences but I look forward to trying to hash more of them out and anybody who is searching like I'm searching like my brother Aiden who's searching anybody who's doing that don't stop searching this keeps searching it's really really edifying to do so to look to the Word of God to look into the church history it's something that will only bring you closer to Jesus Christ it might offset you a bit at first it might make you uncomfortable but just keep pursuing the truth and you will find it