Catholic vs. Protestant - 2019-09-14 - Kieran Lisney Part 3

Author Recorded Saturday September 14th, 2019

There are 31 episodes in the Versus:Protestant series.

In this episode Kieran shares some exciting news about his ongoing faith-journey. He has recently started attending Divine Liturgy at a Greek Orthodox church, and is having serious doubts about Protestantism. As always, I enjoyed our friendly chat.

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These YouTube transcripts are generated automatically and are therefore unformatted and replete with errors.
here in part three so what do you been up to what's new the floor is yours I think the first thing that I want to do is apologize for the last interview and even somewhat my attitude in the first interview that you and I did just because I had a lot of presuppositions that I brought to the table and after our last interview at first I was kind of sour because I was like oh man this doesn't seem representative of what David and I had talked about and then I thought about it and I was like you know what like if my positions were as correct as I thought they were then no matter how this would be edited it probably would have sounded to my liking like something that came out in my favor and then I thought about it again I'm like the fact that I even think that like this should come out sounding like it's in my favor or like the balls in my court is like it's a false assumption on my part that that our discussions should be even be anything more than just having a discussion and so I realized like a lot of the discussion that you and I had was coming from a place of pride on my part and so I repented of that to Jesus but I want to formally and publicly repent of that because that's not the kind of attitude that I want to have I think that like a lot of what has gone on in my past in regards to the Catholic Church has tainted a lot of my views of it and so while I still hold to many of the positions you and I had discussed before the attitude that I had in regards to talking about it it's be irreconcilable to how Jesus would have me behave and act and treat my brother well there's no need to apologize I mean I'm ten times more proud than you will ever be so you know there's no need to apologize I like your attitude I think you have a good attitude you're you're open you're friendly you're seeking the truth I don't think you have anything to apologize for but I appreciate the the sentiment and I'm sure it comes from a sincere place where you're wrestling with things and discovering things about yourself which is really exciting so yeah what sort of discoveries have you made theologically or in terms of ecclesiology so my understanding of theology is actually more of like the ancient sort of understanding of what it means to be a theologian it's not like it's not head it's not all head knowledge I should say it's not just like oh here's these facts that I know about God and I'm gonna store those into my my memory bank and I'm gonna bust those out when I have to defend God number one God doesn't need to be defended so like the pursuit of knowing about God just for the simple fact that I want to defend him really all comes back again to pride and then the second thing is that theology really yes it's the study of God but it is it's something that's primarily experienced through your personal relationship with God and the only way that that comes about is through prayer and so my prayer life has quite drastically changed since the last you and I spoke I've been doing a lot of Prayer and so I've been praying with my father and my brother first we did a month-long reflection each each of us took one of the we took three of the sets of mystery so my brother did saw awful I did joyful and my dad did glorious and we use that for generational sin and our family because we realized we we have a lot of issues going on with that and so we United in prayer and each of us prayed the Rosary for an entire month which obviously is huge for me which I've always had like a fondness of the Rosary and and I used to you know even when I was like staunchly against asking Mary for intercession I would still pray the Divine Mercy chaplet on it because I just I loved it the aesthetics of using prayer beads and stuff like that has been wildly important to me and so we've been doing that and now we're on and we're on a new round of prayer for the family again but we're all meditating upon the same mysteries and we're just praying a decade a day but I've also added in I've established a prayer rule so I've been i've been praying morning doxology and evening Docs ecology as well as of course that comes along with that is like the true Saji and prayers and stuff and I've actually been exploring orthodoxy I've been attending an Orthodox Church now for I don't know probably like two weeks after you and I spoke until now and it's been pretty eye-opening so I'm kind of like exploring a lot with with Orthodoxy d go to a Greek or a Russian or an OCA it's a Greek Orthodox I have no I have no problem with any of the other ones I actually want to go try out this Antiochian one but the Greek Orthodox Church is like literally five minutes from my house and so like the the Greek Orthodox Church that I go to it's very it's not very Greek like obviously most of them use the Liturgy of st. John Chrysostom but like and they pray and Greek and stuff like that but it's a very it's like a it's a cultural melting pot if you will it's a lot of ex Protestants actually it's kind of bizarre but it's also really cool it makes me feel a little bit more at home and the Father deacon and father Hector they're two that I was introduced to and they're just they've been really super accommodating and understanding of you know my background and that kind of stuff so they've been helping me to understand Orthodox theology and stuff because there's a lot it's such a anytime you get into some of you know like high Church theology high church history when you talk either you know if you're talking about Roman Catholicism are you talking about Eastern Catholicism or you're talking about Eastern Orthodoxy there's so much to all of it that it's like I had an entire life to unpack in sort of like um Roman Catholicism and so like looking into orthodoxy something which I've never really given more than a cursory glance it's overwhelming but it's also really beautiful at the same time so I've just been sort of soaking that up and enjoying that in the mean time and yeah yeah so you have a spiritual director formally or officially so not formally or officially I'm thinking that it is going to be father Hector he's not the oldest or longest and increased at Annunciation but he is the main priest now because the oldest priest is close to 80 years old he's going to be retiring soon he's actually should have retired a little while ago and I met him for a brief moment but he's very old so yeah so I did have like a sit-down with father Hector and you know he's been sort of guiding me he gave me some material to read and help me establish a prayer rule and stuff like that and it's been really great but no not formally but I plan on getting a father confessor and stuff like that if in fact I end up going this route what's your status today are you Protestant Orthodox nondenominational what what are you so it's weird I still go to the Baptist Church I've been going to for a while now on Sundays so I go to Vespers mainly I switch off pretty much every other weekend I'll go to Vespers one weekend on Saturday and then I'll try and go to Divine Liturgy on Sundays but my wife is in a position right now where she's exploring her own sort of thing and her comfortability is in the Baptist Church that we go to that's what she's used to so like this is another thing that she sees Oh Kieran's getting involved in something else I don't understand and now now she feels like oh maybe I'm being left out or whatever and she's not comfortable going there yet Sushi's so I'm trying to bolster her and be a good steward of the faith for my wife and for my son by encouraging her to go to some church even if it's a church that I don't really agree with and I I do that by going with her and so I actually that's one of the things I spoke with father hector about and he's totally on board with that you know support my wife and go where she's comfortable and like nothing's any rush like I'm kind of through the point where it's like I'm I'm not I'm not looking to make any vast changes or anything so flippantly so I'm just I'm just trying to be as open minded and cautious isn't the right word but definitely open-minded and and I guess take sort of the backseat just kind of sit down shut up and allow things to happen as they're supposed to happen if that makes sense so yeah so I've been I've been going to the Orthodox Church and I've also been going to the Baptist Church so what's the name of the Orthodox Church if you don't mind that it is the Annunciation Greek Orthodox Church okay and what's been the reaction of your brother and your father supportive my dad and Aaden like they're super holy so like even if they had like disgruntled attitude towards it like they wouldn't say anything but they're just not like that like they they're supportive of whatever I'm doing so even when I was Protestant like although my dad didn't agree with it he was still supportive in the sense that he wanted me to be close to Jesus so if that's the route and you know my dad's always kind of one it's like well you're gonna be where you're supposed to be no matter what it just might take some time to get there I want you to talk about that sort of light bulb moment where you said okay there's something for me in the high church traditions like the Orthodox and Catholic what was the lightbulb moment can you pinpoint it for me like I remember it so it was a Sunday actually it was like the second Sunday after you and I had either spoke or the last podcast was released and my wife and I were going to church and like before church I was in the bathroom getting ready and I just had like obviously they listen like an audible voice or anything like that but it was like something in my heart was just like speaking to me and it was like why don't you look into the Orthodox Church and I like stopped brushing my teeth or whatever the heck it was I was doing and I was like that's weird I was like I never even like gave that a consideration at all you know I've looked at it a little bit here and there and I just thought the theologies wishy washy or something or it's too much for me to invest in so I was like alright well that's weird so I just started looking at like that morning that I pulled up a couple different articles from ancient faith and stuff like that and I was reading and that's a gue this has my interest and on the way to church I was still reading this article and my wife said what are you reading and I was like I'm reading about the Orthodox Church and she's like what's that well apparently it's one of the main contenders for the the church that Jesus Christ himself founded and she was like oh okay and then from there I just kind of kept looking into it and looking into it but the two main points the ones that stuck out from the last interview that I was like man like I can't ignore that is tradition and the Eucharist if the church doesn't have those two things and like and maybe I really am doing something wrong maybe I really am because although I am you know ardently opposed to the idea of a Supreme Pontiff I realized that I'm I'm making myself to Supreme Pontiff by relying on my own interpretation which you've said before multiple people have said before and it's one of those things where it's like I never really thought about that too much or maybe I did and I just was like in self denial or something and so I'm I was like well there has to be something that's guiding interpretation of Scripture and then I talked to my pastor about it at the Baptist Church and he's like hey man I haven't seen you in a couple weeks because I've been going to the liturgy I told him what was going on basically this is all via email I told him what was going on he he's I feel kind of bad cuz he's like here you know how are we getting together so that you can start putting your your class together to start teaching some apologetics here that's just basically like well I think I'm gonna have to put that on the back burner right now pastor on because I don't necessarily know if I believe everything will leave anymore yeah so it's been difficult but those are the two main things that kind of like led me into a high church of some kind and and it has to be Catholicism or it has to be orthodoxy Anglicanism is out of course Lutheranism is out of course but what I particularly like about the Orthodox view of multiple theological points for instance theosis their view of salvation is much different than the West churches of course those being Catholicism and Protestantism where notice more of like a transactional sort of view of salvation whereas orthodoxy would say it's actually a transformational view of salvation it's been really fun and also eye-opening to sort of understand their take on these main issues you know when you hear substitutionary atonement or a theory or you hear Christus vicar theory of the atonement stuff like that it's like the Orthodox doesn't have any concept of those things at all it's just salvation and salvation God forgave us before Jesus died on the cross Jesus didn't have to die on the cross in order for us to be forgiven he already forgave us there's it's a lot more nuanced than that and I was like that's actually rather interesting because like you have so many of these warring camps even within Protestantism that take different views on what the atonement did how it was accomplished all of that sort of thing and the East sort of separates itself from all of that and it just kind of says like hey we just know what what what scripture says it says that Jesus died for our sins but we know that we've been forgiven before that this is like that it's not so much of purchasing but it's it's it's a self giving act rather which most people would concede to I understand that but it's less of a formal kind of thing and the idea like when we see the word energiya that's used like 30 different times in Paul's epistles it's like the energies of God you know we can't we can't experience or apprehend the essence of God only the energies of God which is basically everything that we can come in contact with and I never of my own volition thought of a distinction like that there's so many there's so many different sayings in Orthodox it's like whoa this is like totally new territory to me I'm familiar with Catholicism unfamiliar with Protestantism and the different flavors of each but I've never ever looked into orthodoxy and so there's just so many different things about it that's like okay this is cool also again the idea of theosis when Peter talks about is I think it's his first epistle and he says a you know to be partakers in the divine nature it's like that's where the idea comes from and I think it was who was an athame shoes that said God became man so that we might become God not that we literally become our own gods but that we become a part of God that we are full once we are glorified in Christ we're partakers in the divine nature in that sense it's like oh wow like that's beautiful like how Caroline from Scripture like that I've never jumped out at me before you know I've read it so many times but it's like you never actually understand or grasp what that could mean and there's whole practices in orthodoxy that aim at being partakers in the divine nature and it's like I really like that and the Saints dude dude that's been huge man so like I've been asking for intercession from Saint kheer and the younger he was a sixth century Saints that he like started building the first monasteries in Ireland and there's not really a whole lot known about him that like he's obviously venerated in the Orthodox Church because he's you know pretty 10:54 and like yeah I don't know man like just being able to ask for intercession from the Blessed Virgin and stuff like that it's just been it's been fantastic I was a little discouraged at first because it was like oh like I could start praying the rosary again I brought my rosary like I still I bring my rosary into and the church every time I go cuz I die like I'm not gonna stop the rosary but we're like well it's not technically Orthodox but they're also like it there's nothing like against it or whatever my brother sent me an article in music we'll check this out he's like actually there's like an orthodox version of the Rosary and I saw it and I was like oh this is kind of convoluted I'm just gonna stick to the Catholic version of it because it's what I know and because that's how I feel closer to Jesus that's how I feel closer to the Mother of God and I just feel like that's just what I'm gonna do it's so like I don't know like I'm shot like I have my prayer role and stuff like that and I got an okay to start praying the Jesus Prayer and stuff like that though not like you know he was like don't get like super crazy with it you know before a spiritual direction like you can it can actually be very harmful to explore on to hassey chasm and stuff like that before you have a spiritual director so I don't I've only dabbled in a little bit but it's like I have such I have such an attraction to the Rosary I think a lot of that comes from my brother because he is like a warrior for the Virgin Mary and like that kind of attitude that Aden takes with the Rosary is like and like that's so dope dude you can just see such a transformation in him just through this simple prayer and it's like that's something that I don't decide on't want it I don't want to desire it just because I want consolation I don't want to desire it just because I want to feel like I'm achieving something I truly desire it because I want to be closer to Christ and I truly want to be closer to his mother so I'm exploring all that stuff yeah it's been cool now a little bit more touchy subject what about morality because I know the morality might be a little bit of a jump more emphasis on the Ten Commandments certainly in the Catholic Church but even the Orthodox Church is you're gonna find it a little bit of an adjustment are there things that concern you or are you receiving graces to conform a little bit better to these high church standards of the Ten Commandments yeah so actually it's something that's a lot it's very attractive to me that aspect of it in general again this goes back to the sort of transactional transformation kind of understanding of salvation when I'm understanding that like like with with Protestantism it's basically no you don't have to do anything in order to be saved you you just believe in Christ and it's like you're good to go for the rest of your life and I never bought into that like I always bought into like this sort of not works based salvation but salvation that's like it is transformational like this stuff just comes naturally like when you close that that homeless person you closed Jesus Christ when you visited that person in jail you visited Jesus clothes like those are the kinds of works it's like it's not works for the sake of oh I'm getting points in heaven it's works for the sense of my hardest changing my heart is adapting and this is something I truly desire is something that's truly beautiful so that's basically the take on that that I've and I've been embracing some of the other things like for instance like contraception I've never been a believer in contraception just because I guess like that's my you know my Catholic upbringing like the little minutia of some of the more what Protestants would call moral gray areas that sort of stuff I don't know I've just always kind of leaned towards the Catholic side of it yeah I struggle with that stuff my wife especially because she doesn't understand it in her mind it's like I don't want another kid right now because we don't have money and for me I'm like yeah but I'm literally making you a masturbation machine if I'm having sex with you with no intention of having a kid you know sure for sure so what about the sacraments how long would it take for you to be able to partake of the sacraments I'll do it it could be two years for all I know it could be it could be a year it could be less than a year it could be two years and really there's a there's more of a looseness so there's not really like an RCIA kind of class you take or anything like that in the Orthodox Church it's basically like you learn everything through coming to liturgy the sacraments there's a little bit different in nuance between the Catholic and the Orthodox Church of course like I understand from like the Catholic perspective if somebody were like on their deathbed they could receive like holy unction or or whatever from an Orthodox priests or they could receive Communion from an Orthodox priest the Orthodox is a little bit more staunch which is surprising actually because they seem a little bit more like relaxed about things but it's so like there's like no exception at all you cannot receive any of the sacraments at the Catholic Church if you're an Orthodox Christian you know Christian the understanding of confessions rather different I was really taken aback and surprised it's not a regular thing and I guess partially that comes down to the fact that they don't really have a distinction between mortal and venial sin and so like it's a little they also they also commune there children when they're babies so it's like they're baptized Chris made it and their commune all in the same day so like there's um there's a little bit difference in understanding with all of them though they are obviously they believe of course they believe in the real presence of course that that's the mystery of mysteries it's the pinnacle of the liturgy just as it is in the Catholic Church that's why you're there confession is to make yourself right so that you're not drinking and eating damnation upon yourself so all of these other things but they ought they operate very they operate very similarly they're just there's some minor distinctions between the two and so it's something I desire greatly but for now even if I could just look at Jesus in the Eucharist as he's being processed around the church that's okay with me I did that for years and years and years and years and years in the Catholic Church because I wasn't confirmed so like you know until I went into our CIA and they're like oh wow like you were raised in the church you have an understanding this stuff you could start going to confession and having communion and I done I don it immediately but that was like 20 years in the making so like I waited I waited for a very long time to receive Communion so if the Lord says Karen you got it you're gonna have to wait 20 years before you received in the church like if it's something that I feel like God's calling you to then Who am I to say I'm not gonna I'm not willing to wait that long let me just go back to what I know is false yeah so just leave us with a nice positive thought what you're excited about I just want to say again I apologize to every listener who's listening to my interviews and taking anything away from it that has derailed you in any way discouraged you in any way made you think less about Christ in his gospel or his church in any way and even if you can't forgive me just know that when I make mistakes it's not Christ who's making mistakes if me who's making mistakes and I have to repent of that and I just want to try and make amends for some of the stuff that I've done before I know you say it's not necessary but I know it thanks brother we'll talk soon I mean god bless later love you bye let me do if you like it well view if you think it's got some questions SP and I'll tell all you've got to do is all you got to do is do is