Catholic vs. Catholic - 2019-01-22 - Max Kolbe Part 2

Author Recorded Tuesday January 22nd, 2019

There are 45 episodes in the Versus:Catholic series.

Recorded September 13th, 2017

Catholic vs. Catholic - 2017-09-13 - Thomas

This is my second interview with Max, but this time it was on his show, Red Pill Religion. He asked me about my journey from Atheism to Catholicism, and about why I do my podcast. He is always friendly and fun to chat with, and we share a deep devotion to our Holy Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary. • Support the CVS Podcast: • Be a guest on a livestream:

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These YouTube transcripts are generated automatically and are therefore unformatted and replete with errors.
hey hey there good morning good afternoon good evening wherever you are welcome back to the red pill religion podcast red privilege and we're amongst to think we say I believe in the supernatural and transcendent is normal healthy rational and evidence-based - tonight we are joined by Dave Ross from Catholic verses let me ask you David when did you start doing this channel just a few months ago or know a couple of years ago it was the summer of 2016 just to see if I could find any blind spots in my worldview and to see if there was anyone out there is fanatical and annoying as I am and so far haven't found anyone fanatical or annoying would be how people usually describe me you you actually have a very temporary even tempered and thoughtful approach to your videos it also turns out that you are in fact one of my fellow former atheists why did you become an atheist well it's unusual I had a dream actually a very pleasant dream about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ I was loosely Protestant all my entire childhood up until I had this dream at the age of 14 and it was a very simple dream I was waving to Jesus or rather he was waving to me from one of those cartoon desert islands you know the ones that just have one palm tree and he just waved at me and I woke up and I had lost my faith so it was very counterintuitive really that's interesting so you're Catholic now obviously war we embark I know I was raised in a very liberal Protestant denomination called the United Church of Canada and you know I had a naive faith I would pray every night we would pray at meals and we would go to different Protestant churches growing up and I loved church I loved god I loved praying but at the age of 14 when I had that dream I lost my faith and I knew that it was counterintuitive because you don't have a pleasant dream about Jesus and lose your faith normally but that's what happened to me it's like the dark years began my rebellion went on for 25 years 25 years so you were pushing 40 or about 39 39 you you you changed your mind okay what changed your mind well I think saying that I changed my mind is a little bit of an oversimplification God revealed himself to me it's very mysterious but what we are aware of day to day is so impoverished like we have no idea what's going on right but if we're to tell the little story of our conversion we can talk about this aspect or that aspect and what I like to focus on is my intellectual journey through studying Western philosophy that's what I see I see that I started out with Socrates and Plato and I went through the overview of the history of Western philosophy by the time I got to Rene Descartes he was talking about solipsism and by that point I had entered into heard solipsism I thought that I was the only being and I know there were people praying for me so I attributed more to prayer and grace than to the intellectual journey but that was definitely part of it the intellectual journey the heart can know there's a God but the head can't figure it out my head might be able to figure it out but the heart may not be there what strongest of all is if they're both in line because for the longest time my face was formless and inert I couldn't articulate now I can articulate it very well that's pretty neat but to me the intellectual journey was the more important part cuz I suspect my heart was always been cold towards God but you know actually I couldn't get over that hump so actually the journey was very intellectual for me it really was and I guess I could say my faith is a gift but if so I kept pushing it back until I could make my mind understand it so really it was almost more of a mystical experience for you than both ways well I don't know I think everything that is valuable is a mystery and what you were saying about the heart had connection that's always been a huge theme for me I do have a tendency to be cerebral and to live in my head but at the same time I do obviously have free will and it's just a matter of understanding how they work together and who's wearing the pants in that relationship well it's interesting too because people like to think that they have rational reasons for whatever they believe or that they have right reasons for doing the things they do but there's been you know psychological studies suggesting that a possibly of a great majority of the time we decide what we think and then we think of the reasons afterwards or you know we do whatever we're gonna do and then we try to justify it afterwards well and so I do think that points to some of what you're saying and one of the predictors of religion is well basically it goes like this no matter how religious mom is if dad doesn't take it seriously the kids do not take it seriously and if dad takes it seriously they take it seriously although if dad takes it seriously and is also a bad dad the kids will tend the rebel and it's almost always a father issue psychologically at least that's what fall showed and we have a whole generation of young men now raised without their fathers and that is who 90% of the self-declared atheist population is follow this males with very broken father relationships it's very interesting isn't it yeah I mean I if you want to listen to the interview I did with my father you can go ahead and do that it's on my website on my online presence and there's also one of my mother and so there I can talk about it pretty openly because they were willing to come on and actually discuss certain aspects of their faith and of my childhood and stuff like that and my mom is very open about the fact that you know she's suicidally depressed and has been for years and I don't quite know what to say about my dad I like him I love him I think he's a nice guy I do have a certain warmth with him but it's not the palpable warmth I have with my mother I see my mother as sunshine or storm clouds or a hurricane or a pleasant spring day everything and everything in the emotional weather forecast is possible with my mother whereas with my dad I don't get that variety I don't get that depth of emotion I don't get that sense of danger and drama from him I get stability I get calm confidence it's not quite as exciting for me I do like him and love him and respect him but very very very different effects in terms of warmth okay without trying to generalize grossly irresponsible about people who are not present to defend themselves who I don't even know I'm barely knowing you I would just hazard that if your mother has severe mental health issues what that will usually do actually mother father whatever it goes either way one of them the parents is suffering severe mental illness the other parent is going to be compensating in multiple ways and so it wouldn't surprise me if you wound up getting a lot less attention from your father simply because your mother required more of it again don't let your mom hear that and get mom mad at me I don't know anybody here I'm not arresting anybody but yeah it wouldn't surprise me and if that I mean a fractured family relationship pretty much is a thought bad relationship with a fractured I don't want to over dramatize the fractured relationship with both parents actually and so yeah part of it may have been a rebellion phase for you against your dad again I don't want to generalize too much I don't know we all have one of the things that simply undeniable is taking the atheist position and it is a position seems to correlate with people who have this kind of some sort of family issues some sort of rebellion issue some sort of anger issue especially toward a father figure move it seize it and I see great sense in me and in most of the other atheists I've known yeah it looks like a real hard rebellion against dad figure either resentment because he wasn't there or resentment because he was abusive or resentment because he was weak cold or whatever the psychology of that appears to be there and you know Paul FETs is a real real research psychologist so you know making it what you will but I've also found it insightful myself in dealing with atheists in particularly in the online environment because you once you realize that this is mostly in hysterical emotional condition and most of them because it is it is the behavior at least in the typical online you know I'm an atheist I want to trumpet my atheism I want to virtue signal my atheism wherever I go I want to be condescending and snide to religious people wherever I go it's always kids that never got decent boys mostly who never got decent boundaries set firm by a dad and the counterintuitive thing for that is by the way is frequently they respond much more strongly to a sort of a more traditional masculine I ain't taking your garbage attitude get out of here snowflake or just like outright mocking them come on weak sauce what do you got is that all you got that was it's just lack of belief bricks lack belief yeah coma patients lack belief they're the best atheists bricks lack belief completely in God so they must be the best atheists pricks are the best atheists you say things like that and certain people are like well but a lot of young men kind of respond to it because they actually even though they hate you for talking them that way they wanted the challenge because they never got the challenge from their death in most cases again everybody's different yeah my experience with online atheists is quite different from my experience with real-life atheists like my friends who are atheists there's no hello how are you and who are you it's just like you're an idiot you're this you're that you know the insults are the first thing it's like their opening volley is a bunch of insults that doesn't happen when you go to a party full of atheists they don't just start insulting you they shake your hand and they say how are you what do you do for a living or whatever right and maybe by 3:00 in the morning once you've had too much to drink maybe then a couple of insults will come out but online it's like the first thing I actually think some of it is sublimated rage like they don't want to act that way in real life so it comes out online or something but although I don't know it's also an age thing because younger atheists I find are a lot more hot-headed and a lot more temperamental and a lot more fragile he's always that fits was my view that atheism was indoctrinated into the Millennial population and we're probably gonna see it reverse itself I mean it already is reversing itself but probably even faster in the coming years because it's not really a rationally sustainable and it's also not natural in humans we've got we've got copious data on it if you don't become Christian you're gonna become something almost nobody stays atheist unless they're really committed to it and being that level of committed is a lot of work to a hard to defend proposition that's my take on it you know people talk about privacy online privacy and the government knows who I am and they read my emails and all that sort of stuff well I'm starting to think it might not be such a bad idea for the government to gather all this data and then everyone has access to everything so you can't hide behind a fake moniker online and everyone knows who you are what your situation is and I'm just being silly but it's a bit of a thought experiment where this is a real human being this is not a machine that's responding to me this is a human being they actually do use scripts and robots especially on Twitter or a tag team of two three four people on the same account at the same time they do this and we've documented a few times and watched it and that used to happen somewhat on Facebook and it used to happen on YouTube too there's less way less of it than it used to be basically because they cut down on YouTube anyway on Google they cut down on people's ability to use scripted robots and because what used to happen and I'm not kidding you they would come in you'd post a video that annoyed the atheist collective and you come in and you have hundreds of down boats and hundreds and hundreds of comments all over the place just burying you in negativity and it looked like a whole swarm of people only you know it turns out in many cases we found out that you know it was one guy with a meme you know a script console and 1520 accounts that used to happen it's it's become far less common though it's become far less common but that's that was because a theism wasn't is an organized movement on the Internet and people call you crazy when you say that but it is on the other hand when you get back to the individual atheist or or let's say the atheist is joined one of these online groups because that's the difference I think you'll find in yourself and look at the atheist online groups the atheist online groups are really just places for sad depressed mostly young fatherless males hanging out with each other trying to get a sense of validation and it's actually really funny because there you can even see that in action in the atheist forums online that 90% in the male figure that greater than 90% male figure yeah when a female atheist shows up she's instant celebrity on almost atheist forum in fact the whole internet atheist phenomenon as a former atheist myself it's just fascinating to observe the psychology of them in groups but when you can get down to the individual yeah now all of a sudden you start seeing a real person if they're willing to let you see it but what they also have to do is maintain this faux pose of intellectual and moral superiority and and I find the only way to deal with it is to find a way to puncture it in them and see you know I'm not I'm sorry I'm not that impressed with you but in any case I'm still gonna go curious about it and go back to it so I mean you had it sounds like you had a mystical experience that made you decide you were an atheist and you had a kind of a mystical experience that brought you back why on earth would you go for those crazy idol-worshipping graven image using Mary worshiping crazy Catholics why would you do such a thing well I think it's important to point out that I was very actively and aggressively anti-catholic as an atheist I started out at age fourteen when I lost my faith obviously I was just very young very horny very confused but I started out basically as a nice guy atheist I think agnosticism is sort of a comfortable place for someone that's exploring and I think the fact that I did find God means that I was seeking all the time people have asked me were you ever really an atheist and sometimes I say yes of course sometimes I say no of course I wasn't you know I changes depending on my perspective in the moment is it possible that I was an atheist I don't know I still don't know but I know that I denied God's existence and for me that's a good enough practical definition of atheism if the words come out of your lips there is no God then you're an atheist whether your hurt is in it or not doesn't really matter right but my point is here with this journey I started out as a nice guy agnostic and then as I grew older I got more and more atheistic more militant the more I studied Western philosophy as a hobby sensibly seeking truth I guess I became more and more radical in my atheism I ended up being an atheistic Satanist and I went through her determinism and I ended up in hurt solipsism but near the end of my atheism I was very very anti-catholic and most of my hatred was directed towards the Catholic Church so when I did convert I thought okay I must be a Muslim because I don't want to be Christian but it just so happens that a book fell into my lap the confessions of st. Augustine I read it and all my all my antagonism fell away I fell in love with Saint Augustine I fell in love with his God I realized that the triune God is the God that I had discovered through my journey my conversion and I fell in love with the church and it was so it was just a matter of a couple of weeks between finding God and then deciding to be Catholic but when I converted to God I could not have cared less which religion was a true religion I did not care I was so excited about God the Father the feeling inside of me was so strong that I have to publicly worship Him if it's in a mosque if it's in a church if it's in a Jewish temple I don't care I don't care I need to go and I need to publicly worship my god and then there must be a true religion because if God is infallible then it makes sense that he would design religion such that we can have a sure path to him there was not just hard agnosticism that were stuck in there must be an infallible guide to the saving truth it's not to every truth not to scientific truth not to scientific history but to salvation history we would have to have an infallible way to know the things that are essential to know to get back to God so that's when I started looking into religion and it really wasn't that heard and I ended up in the Catholic Church I'll tell you what my story actually is kind of the opposite of yours David I did reach a point in my atheism where I decided I would really like to believe in God and I couldn't I like I literally could not think of why you would think that was a god I wanted to believe there was one and I couldn't think of a reason it was like a mental block there was there's this phrase they used in Alcoholics Anonymous which I used to go to not currently a member but still spore which was fake it till you make it which is like your heart is there but your head is not it was almost kind of Pascal's wager situation if people know anything about Pascal's wager the the online internet atheist collective puts up Pascal's wager and they always state it dead wrong because Pascal's wager is was you know the short stupid version of it is it's better than believe than not because if you're wrong nothing happens but if you're right you get to go to heaven and stuff like that but that's really simplified because by the time Pascal formulated that he was already no longer an atheist and that wasn't his reason he was literally writing his advice for people who were still struggling to believe and he said if nothing else if nothing else convinces you think of it this way and then go try living the spiritual life and go you know go to church take the sacraments participate open yourself to it and things will come to you and I kind of went along that way in fact for the longest time I was telling myself this may all just be psychological benefit that I'm getting and some kind of primitive you know Jungian maybe it's not real but I'm going with it anyway I sometimes I had that attitude because my intellect could not grasp the idea of God and then one day it was like something got ripped off my brain like a belt got ripped off my brain and I stopped accepting materialist thinking and then all of a sudden it became completely obvious to me that there had to be a God I guess you could say that was a religious experience maybe that was God changing things for me or saying now it's time but that would mean that God made me an atheist or wanted me to be an atheist or was cooperating all along which I don't even find on implausible I have heard some Christians you know lose their minds and they say people have no excuse I think it's obvious that there's a God but I really for the longest time like I remember having conversations with Jewish friends and Christian friends it's like okay this all sounds good but why do you believe this this is even real at all and it I had endless conversations like that you know until finally one day I went what and now I explained to anybody exactly why I believe what I believe but in any case so I had asked you this before but now we kind of know who you are and where you're coming from better what was you what's your real goal with your channel well there are many ways of interpreting reality I don't know I don't know what I'm doing as I said in the very first segment of the show I don't really know what I'm doing or why but some of the ideas that come to mind are to meet people to get challenged in my faith to see if I'm believing a lie and if so to abandon Jesus Christ there has been nothing even remotely close to a challenge to my faith it is so pathetic how little there is in terms of counter arguments against Christianity is just there's nothing there's absolutely nothing but the the the thing I'm most excited about with my podcast is not meeting people and learning a little bit about their faith journey or their their worldview what's most exciting is that I enroll each and every one of my guests in a perpetual Mass which means that they and their families will benefit from the infinite graces of the Holy Sacrifice of the mass every day until the end of time there's a mass being said for them and for their family so I think I'm up to a hundred and 60 masses that are being said every day around the world for my guests and that's every day until the end of time now I was just gonna mention about the a a thing I've never done any of those 12 steps but I have got friends who have done them and they talked about the pink cloud experience I've been riding on the pink cloud since my conversion in 2009 it's a constant hi I mean I I'm just constantly hi when you are paying attention to the fact that God is real and that you are the child of this loving God it is like being high it is like being inebriated it is like being drunk this might be purely psychological I might just be insane but what do you say about this pink cloud did you experience it yeah everybody knows in oae and not a Narcotics Anonymous and a bunch of others they have these 12 steps which are pretty functional the first two steps are usually the hardest but the third one is the one the the most alcoholics and addicts run straight into step 3 is trying to make conscious contact with God as we understood him it's not Christian a lot of people in AAA or even anti-christian although they try and tamp it down because you respect other people's views so it was just more of a philosophical and how you came to understand God but even so it was obvious that this helped most people especially the long-term ones and in any case the pink cloud is something they refer to an AAA where basically you have gotten to where you can handle life without your chemical a choice and you feel really good because your health improves and your clarity of mind improves and you find yourself on a pink cloud but then of course life gets tough and the pink cloud evaporates and what happens to a lot of drunks is they go and get drunk again because the pink cloud that great high feeling went away and so actually we usually warn about the pink cloud now a sustained pink cloud of decade is probably something more than that AAA experience I'll tell you that though that I have had spiritual experiences that did have me on a high and I do have a system like I have a sustained awareness of God that's like 24/7 which is kind of interesting even when I'm being bad but you still may go through something called the dark night of the soul where somehow you're not feeling it anymore I mean if that had if that never happens you great on the other hand Mother Teresa suffered it for decades she never stopped I mean I have gone through periods where is like oh I'm not feeling it anymore I mean intellectually I'm there but my heart's not there anymore that to me is actually when the more Orthodox Catholic 'we really kicks in because if you've developed a life of consistent prayer and consistent practice taking the sacraments and doing the liturgy even when you're not feeling it it's called persevering because you know the bible does in the description to the christian history does show time again we live in a valley of tears horrible things are going to happen you might die of cancer you may lose your home everything may go bad and that's when the pink cloud gets really tested and the only thing i'll say is if anything bad happens start studying things like a look at the book of Job if you ever start struggling with that but I do see what you mean because yes and being aware that there's a God it changes everything about how you see the universe we should probably show close this up although Charlie asks I'm gonna go ahead and answer this question what evidence is there charlie we have evidence that there is a God in afterlife in at least 15 different areas of contemporary science that I'm willing to talk to you about along with at least a dozen classical proofs that have never been debunked and we have ample experience so my question to you would be twofold and as to all your fellow atheists which evidence have you examined and why did you dismiss it and what if there's evidence that you haven't seen tell me what kind of evidence works for you logical and observational proofs do you what do you want to look at what's in contemporary science what do you want to talk about you want to talk about personal experience what do you want as evidence what do you define as evidence what will you accept as evidence and no arm-waving generalizations please but if you say peer-reviewed papers I have those too you can still dispute them because and this is the last thing I'd point out you can be skeptical of anything for any reason at any time you can be skeptical of anybody or anything for any reason at any time and you can choose to dismiss the evidence all you want the one thing that is true is there is evidence so the real question is why do you dismiss the evidence and which evidence have you seen and which evidence have you not what evidence would move you or at least challenge you let me know what they've known did you have anything to add to that there yeah I have two questions is there a first cause or not so that's a that's a true dichotomy that means that there's no middle way you have to decide and follow your decision to its logical conclusions and then the second question is is the first cause natural or not and just by answering those two questions you end up with the God of monotheism the God of classical theism who is all-powerful who is non temporal who is non spatial who is infinite in every perfection and so it takes answering two questions honestly but from my experience atheists who are not ready in their will meaning it's it's a matter of loving God unto contempt of self rather than loving self into contempt of God if you're not there yet there's no intellectual exercise that will help you it's all about love but if you want to play with the intellectual side it can prepare your heart so think about those two simple questions is there a first cause and is it natural and if you answer honestly you'll end up with God that's it it's that easy okay well Charlie was trying there but now he's just going after the Bible dude don't even look at a Bible you're not enough to read the Bible and I don't even hesitate to say that you're not you don't even know that there's a God why would you read that thing alright what a great deal of fun thanks a lot David I hope we can do it again sometime thank you very much alright god bless man bye of Maria Ave alright god bless man bye of Maria Ave Maria