Catholic vs. Catholic - 2018-09-19 - Christopher Agron Part 3

Author Recorded Wednesday September 19th, 2018

There are 45 episodes in the Versus:Catholic series.

Recorded September 13th, 2017

Catholic vs. Catholic - 2017-09-13 - Thomas

In this third part Chris reached out to discuss our differences concerning Pope Francis. I always enjoy talking with Chris, and there's not really much separating our perspectives when you get right down to it, so I enjoyed our chat. • Support the CVS Podcast: • Be a guest on a livestream:

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Christopher Agron part three so what's been on your mind what do you want to talk about so I posted something on my facebook wall specifically pointing out certain Hippocrates by the Pope himself during some of his homilies and it's not by any means disrespecting the Pope or slandering him it's pointing out hypocrisy in his homily which are incorrect statements we made it by him you know I mean like I'm definitely want to just stick to like the objective actually they're wrong right but the this is an awesome article and I recommend everyone checking out it's by The Daily wire it's talking about how the Pope broke silence and if you don't mind I'll go with a quote which is directly from his homilies which is in these times it seems like the great accuser has been Unchained and his attacking bishops true we are all sinners we bishops he tries to uncover sins so they are visible in order to scandalize the people the great accuser as he himself says to God in the first chapter of the book of Job roams earth looking for someone to accuse know that statement right there is directly from his homily and if we're talking about the great accuser we're referring to Satan or Satan because that's what that word means I believe in Hebrew the cetana actually literally means the great accuser and he in the book of Job there was like a conference type of thing in heaven and then there was all these angels and God and Satan made you know the accusation the does job really love you or does he love you because you've been pretty much nice to him and so God allows the great accuser to basically just give job a really hard time but um the great accuser Satan he doesn't uncover sins he doesn't bring light to sin because the person who points out sin is actually Jesus you know and the Satan who keeps things hidden he hides saying he doesn't expose it so I thought that was given the context of the recent scandal maybe not the best mistake to make could it have been an honest mistake it could have been an honest mistake I don't know what his intentions are with this homily but I just feel like due to the certain scandals that the Pope is refusing to address because he is literally refusing to address the scandals it's not helpful to point out that someone is a great accuser because they're putting a light on sin I feel like that is not the best situation and I mean Pope Francis he's had a history of this for a while there's a he he wrote a huge letter defending a bishop in his diocese before he was you know the Pope to protect that bishop when he was sentenced to prison for molesting minors and that's a fact like you can google it like it's on the in it like it's not a debatable thing it's like he has actively defended predators and so it makes me question the motives behind saying a homily like this is it and I've gone again I don't want to like go down the slippery slope of like oh he's telling people not to point out sin but I mean iron sharpens iron I certainly hope that if I were in a great state of sin and doing things wrong that you as a friend would pointed out to me and wouldn't and that I would have turn around and call you Satan for doing so I believe that's generally a good thing Satan is motive when he Undercovers sin is to scandalize the people of God this is clear in the quote you can see it says that Satan tries to uncover the sins so they are visible in order to scandalize the people how can you not see that that is the evil and malicious and hateful motive behind Satan's action of uncovering sins Satan always uncover sins after the fact Jesus Christ uncovers sin before during and after the fact but Satan likes to tell you before you sin that it's not a sin but as soon as you sin he loves to tell you and he loves to shame people so the whole mission of Satan is to destroy the church so we can't assume contrary to the text of the quote it's not the content it's like gray area contexts given the situation it would seem like well first of all them certainly there is something wrong with pointing out sin to scandalize people but you can't stop taking action because you're afraid to be labeled scandalized when did the Pope say not to take action when did the Pope condone sin or evil of any kind when there's no evidence for that the context is what makes it questionable and to your point like I totally agreed the content it's like very very precise but the context isn't helpful because people run with it of like for example if I am to speak out right now and say well the Pope objectively wrote a letter to defend a predator bishop wouldn't when he was a bishop people would oh you're just scandalized and acting this way and then I guess I'm more concerned with the misinterpretation of such a nuanced point at this time I don't think there's a right time to be honest I don't see any red flags going up for Pope Francis defending an alleged criminal if that's what he did I applaud him for that well the problem wasn't that he was an alleged criminal it was that he had blatant overwhelming evidence against him and the way that he tried to defend him was by sending this huge I believe it was like an over 2000 page letter to his judge you should totally it's public information now he questioned the sexual orientation of the children that he molested and tried to imply that the children had somehow asked or gotten themselves into that situation like I'm all for innocent until proven guilty I'm not okay for I know he's guilty but I'm just going to point out random things about the victim like these are children were talking about yeah we need to be very careful when we evaluate reported news about the Catholic Church or about the Pope or about anything we need to really be careful what we believe and we need to we need to give the benefit of the doubt to everyone who is being maligned in the news we should not be eager to just accept any sort of disparaging comments that are made about anyone much less the Pope so I think we need to be very careful looking into it and finding out what the details are and what what your story reminds me of I'm not familiar with it obviously we'll look into it but what it reminds me of is the woman caught in adultery that was caught red-handed and she was brought to Jesus to be stoned to death and he without condoning her sin he was very merciful to her and he said go and sin no more so I think that there is an application of justice and mercy that will baffle and embarrass the common everyday sinner like the Pharisees of Jesus day especially if they're hypocrites themselves they'll be astonished and embarrassed and will have nothing to say when confronted with the reality of God's justice and mercy so I think that is the benefit of the doubt that I would give to the Pope I need to look into the accusation that you're bringing against and which is very grave and serious one I hate to say it but it's not even an accusation it's public knowledge this is like a fact he gave the huge letter trying to condemn the children for somehow being molested this fact which had gotten no attention for a long time because it was so long though it also didn't has a new light because if everyone's saying wait a minute he's defended predators before and now he's not speaking out and not actively making the moves that you would consider appropriate given this situation and but so that's really what's bringing him to question is his integrity to question and it's not so much of a hateful place like I know that he said that you were against hateful bashing of the Pope and and I mean so am i quite frankly I think being hateful is not productive but if we're just talking about you know downright facts like hey this isn't the first time that he's protected you know someone who clearly was in the wrong it kind of makes me wonder if he just is he fees is he guilty of clericalism is he only protecting these bishops because their bishops you know there's a point where like I totally understand giving people the benefit of the doubt but how can you accuse the victims like that's that's accuser right there yeah so I'm gonna have to dig into this alleged accusation against the victims of child abuse I'm going to look into that it sounds very interesting Canton before you do just remember your own words of just focus on the gospel because if you're gonna start finding things that hurt they did hurt to look at I'm gonna tell you through the hurts yeah it would really take a lot to shock me it really would are you familiar with history of some of the bad Pope's a couple and this is say what you want but I want to make a video comparing bad Pope's just to give perspective soon so no but that's something I planned on doing soon yeah well there was in I think it was in the 11th century or so there was a pretty nasty one called Benedict the ninth anyway he was a nasty character but he was good friends with a man that would become a canonized saint a man by the name of Bartholomew who was an abbot in a monastery and it just so happens that after losing his office of the papacy for the third time he retired to this particular monastery where his friend was Abbot and under the advice and guidance of this future Saint Bartholomew he actually repented and he died there at the monastery grata ferrata that's the name of the monastery so Pope Benedict than 9 in the 11th century I love that man I respect that man and had I lived in the 11th century I'd like to think that I would have submitted to that Pope during his first pontificate his second pontificate and even as their pontificate knowing full well his sins his character flaws his intermittent hatred of Jesus Christ in the church which was so manifestly evident in his thoughts words and deeds I still would have submitted to him I still would have refrained from disparaging as care I still would have given him the benefit of the doubt when hearing gossip in the tavern or in the marketplace I still would have defended Benedict the ninth I wouldn't say that his sin is not sin but I would be very cautious about making judgment on his full knowledge and on the free consent of his will I would only judge the objective matter and that's what I'll do with Pope Francis it's exactly the same there's no hope no matter how dark and sinister that I won't give the same respect to so all of this to say that it really would take a lot for me to have my stomach turned against Pope Francis and nothing can make my heart and mind turn against Pope Francis so I just want to make that very very clear to you and to every listener whether that listener is a faithful Catholic who's considering leaving the church because of scandal or whether it's a faithful Catholic that's just sad and angry and going through all kinds of emotions because of the turmoil in the church or whether it's an anti-catholic or a non Catholic out there that has no idea why we remain in the church I want everyone to know that there's that distinction to be made and that Peter has the keys you know like I always say it's like Noah with the Ark we have to get into that Ark we have to submit to Noah we have to acknowledge his unique role it really is no point in disparaging the character of Noah we just need to get into the boat and leave it in God's hands that Noah will convert for his death just like Pope Benedict the ninth did not every Pope repents not every Pope converts not every Pope goes to heaven not necessarily there is good reason to think that some of the Pope's may have ended up in hell Dante certainly thought so but nonetheless it is essential to our own individual salvation that we submit to the living hope so I just want to make that very very clear right can we talk about that sure because I also listened to your podcast episode again right before this the one that you posted on my wall what episode was that so they know which one I'm not going to I think it's I think you're talking about a meta episode with howling your soul yep selling your soul yeah can you allow only to mean by that because like I don't have to be silent and just watch my Pope blatantly covering up abuse to be loyal to the church yeah the reason that I put such bold emphasis on the importance of the Pope and the bishops who teach in union with the Pope the reason I put such emphasis on that as being the most important fact and reality of religion in the life of any human is because if you are in another religion or if you have another worldview you can have everything but if you don't have the Pope then you are not a Roman Catholic and only Roman Catholics go to heaven this is very controversial but it's an established dogma of the church there is absolutely no salvation outside of the Catholic Church that used to bother me the dog might use to bother me until I understood what it means and the whole point of my little rant in my CBS meta episode where I talk about selling your soul I'd make it this little rant about the Pope and how important the Pope is and I place the Pope above God Almighty in the hierarchy of people that are important to my salvation he's the most important person in my life the Pope I almost fit yeah that's that's actually that's exactly what I was confused about because the Pope doesn't decide your salvation no I decide my salvation correct but if I separate myself from the Pope then it doesn't matter if I believe in the Trinity it doesn't matter if I believe in the Incarnation it doesn't matter if I believe that Jesus died for my sins it doesn't matter if I strive to unite my sufferings to the sufferings of Christ it doesn't matter even if I love I have to submit to the Pope this is the most important fact of religion and if we mystically place ourselves in heaven right now and we look at the whole host to the entire court of heaven each and every one of them before they died acknowledged and submitted to the Living Magisterium of the Holy Roman Catholic Church without exception there is no exception I don't care that some of those Saints in heaven now were Protestant while on earth I don't care that some of them were Orthodox I don't care that some of them were Muslim I don't care that some of them were Jews I don't care that some of them are atheist I don't care about that the fact is that each and every one without exceptions submitted to the Pope and the bishops who teach in union with the Pope in other words they submitted to the Living Magisterium while they were alive they did this it may have been at their last breath it may have been at the last moment of their life but each and everyone without exception submitted to the Pope and the living Magisterium without exception that's a dogmatic fact of the church there is no salvation outside of the church so when we praise the set of a contest or when we praise the Orthodox or when we praise the Muslim or the Jew for being a good pious and holy person we're only praising them for being part of the way into the Catholic Church they're on their way in every indication is that they're on their way in to accepting the fullness of Christian truth which is crowned that truth is crowned by the Pope literally the Pope is crowned as the head of Christianity's the he is the visible head this is what we need to understand as Catholics we really need to embrace this truth that everyone that goes to heaven bends their knee to that crowned man it's a man that's the Vicar of Christ it's the Pope so we need to understand that and if anyone is setting it a good example of piety and devotion to God we need to understand that they're just on their way into that arc they will eventually greet Noah submit to Noah and enter in through the door of Noah's Ark because Noah alone holds the key to the earth and there's only one Ark so you are referring to the Pope you're basically saying to the church there is no church without the Pope but I guess what I'm saying is you're not by submission to the Pope you're not saying condolence in know what does the Pope teach if anyone wants to attack the Pope today and there many people that do I would simply ask them what does the Pope and Jesus said very clearly and the Pope teaches us that Jesus said do as they say not as they do so what does the Pope teach it really doesn't matter what the Pope does what Pope Benedict the 9th did no one should have imitated Yeah right correct like it doesn't take away from his authority on what like in any way shape or form I just want to clarify like submission to the Pope doesn't mean turn a blind eye to things that he's doing wrong yet we agree about that we don't agree about Chris which I'm concerned about with you and with other faithful Catholics today he's a willingness to turn on the person of the Pope and to say well he's infallible when he declares ex cathedra or isn't available when he puts his stamp of approval on to an ecumenical council but other than that we don't need to respect him or submit to his teachings we need to submit to him in everything in the disciplines and the pastoral care and we need to love him were commanded to love him and we are forbidden from disparaging of his character we were forbidden to make rash judgment we really are and there is a tendency for people to want to save face and say well I'm Catholic but to save face from my friends and all the society that's looking with horror on the scandal in the church I'm going to distance myself from the Pope by saying I submit to him over here but in these other areas I am able to condemn him or I'm able to judge his subjective components of his thoughts words or deeds we can't we're not allowed to do that so I think the difference between me and you is not that great but it's very important we both agree that we can engage and we must engage in fraternal correction but where we disagree is when to engage in fraternal correction there is a hierarchy in the church and there are people that are well placed to do fraternal correction to the Pope you Chris Agron are not in a position to give fraternal correction to the Pope that's what the Church teaches I'm pretty sure that's not canon law as a matter of fact canon law is exactly the opposite the reason no one's superior to the Pope's you're not in a relationship where you're a superior to the Pope so you are not in a position to be obliged to give for eternal correction to the Pope you are in a position if you have children or if you're let's say a superior in a religious order to someone that's underneath you you are obliged by the church to give fraternal correction whenever you see that the need is there but you are not obliged and you need to use discernment when you're correcting anyone else and it's better to err on the side of caution there's a principle in the Catholic Church which is not in canon law but it's just a generally understood principle which is mind your own business it's a very very important principle mind your own business right well I completely agree that you're obliged to when you're a superior to someone I certainly don't find myself to be a superior to the Pope but using your own analogy if my dad is doing something really wrong I'm not obliged to correct him and I wouldn't even label it correcting because I respect him but that doesn't mean that I'm gonna turn a blind eye to what he's doing I might have a talk with him make sure that it's known that we're all on the same page that what he's doing is wrong I'd feel very called to speak out on this you unwittingly may be feeding the fire of scandal that's my concern for people that are willing to accept everything that they hear everything that they read and much of what they hear and much of what they read he's an interpretation of the facts so the facts are the facts but do you really think that you have access a sufficient access to the facts and you have a sufficient clarity on the facts I don't think so I really don't think so it's not to disparage your intelligence it's just to say that it's very complicated certainly that's but that's why I point out he's a literal writing black and white like that he was protecting that predator it's like I can't judge it any way other than it's written because that's how he wrote it yeah I'll have to look into that but I don't see that a value I really don't see the value in contributing to sort of like kicking a dead horse let's say in the worst case scenario the he at that time thought that yeah of course the bishop raped the young boy look what he was wearing okay so this is worst case scenario now even if that were the case I don't think it is but even if that were the case I really don't see the point in dwelling on that if there's a crime that he needs to be punished for sure if you're in a position to move that process along I encourage you to do that that's your duty the church teaches that that's your duty the Pope himself commands you to do that but if it's just gossip if it's just adding oil to the flames of scandal what's the point what are you getting out of it and that's in the worst case scenario I don't believe that he said kids deserve to get raped because look what they're wearing I don't believe that I just don't believe that I don't know the exact work these but that was an implication he questioned the children's sexuality like why does it matter if a child is heterosexual or not why did you bring that up right now when we're talking about oh when a priest is being you know convicted for preying on these people so I don't want to question intention but he's like really hanging in the gray area do you think that he has ever had in the past or up until the present has he ever had ill will towards Jesus Christ or the church honestly I don't feel qualified to say that what's your hunch my hunch my hunch is I'm humbly gonna just step down because I'm gonna point out facts like I would never want to put that on anyone that's literally judging like that's literally judging and condemning good character of someone which you have no access to I only have access to what I'm what I've seen objectively like I don't have access to his intention I don't know okay but let me put this to you very simply do you believe that Jesus Christ was lying or joking or doing anything other than telling the literal truth when he warned us against wolves in sheep's clothing that would pretend to be Catholic but are in fact enemies of the church do you believe Christ when he said that or I certainly do so you're willing to acknowledge that there are some clay throughout history that have been wolves in sheep's clothing so the question I'm really getting at with you is what are the odds that Pope Francis was or is currently a wolf in sheep's clothing do you have any I hunt about that well first of all it doesn't take away from his authority as Pope so I'd rather not give up punch or abayas because I'm just looking at facts at the end of the day he's the Pope well I can point out the facts so what is the point and purpose of pointing out the facts about Virgo Leo's letter to the Argentinians what is it about airing some of the dirty laundry that he's bearing good fruit like what what is your plan moving forward because of my relationship with that one post on your Facebook wall my relationship with that was I wanted you to pump the brakes and put things in perspective and be very cautious about spreading dark rumors about our Pope without having all the facts and all the improper interpretation of the facts so I have a very cautious approach but what is your attitude moving forward I think I think we should certainly because I actually really appreciate you taking the time and caring enough to talk to me about it because you're like a very rational like good person that genuinely is seeking good because I've posted several things about the Pope people just telling me to shut up like very rude to me and it's like can we discuss these facts or is it not allowed to discuss these facts like can it's like does he get a pass because he's a pope or do you not want to be aware of his actions because that's not that helpful especially if the lady is going to play a part in the church a greater part in the church in the near future so I think it's important that we're aware yeah so you've given me a lot to think of it I will I will look into Archbishop bergoglio's actions with regard to the sex abuse I will look into that it's not gonna change my position obviously I don't want to change your case it's not like you're actually you're right like submit like that is you feels like I agree with you like if you don't if there is only one way to salvation we're on the same exact page yeah I guess the the deal-breaker for me is if the church doesn't actually have a pope on my podcast I often interview said of a countess who believe that since 1958 there hasn't been a pope and that the remnant Church is comprised of you know a few straggling people that have been legitimately validly and licit ly ordained but they're dying off because that's been 60 years so a lot of a lot of the validly and illicitly ordained priests and bishops and Cardinals are gone they're just they're just dead and gone so that leaves the set of a canta stay in a very awkward position and they're just praying for a miracle to reestablish the hierarchy in the church even that it's just dissolving and people are just dying out so this is a very absurd so-called Catholicism where they accept everything in the Catholic tradition but they simply deny the validity and like I say 80 of the six most recent Pope's so my reaction to their arguments is that if you're right then all of Christianity is a false religion and Jesus Christ is a liar or a lunatic or a mere legend he's not the Lord because we're promised it's a dogma of the church were promised in Vatican 1 reasserted this dogma that there will always be a visible head there will always be a pope in perpetuity and the gates of Hell will not prevail against the church there will always be a visible hierarchy there will always be a Pope in the church and there will always be bishops that are teaching in union with the Pope and so we will always have that government a visible government so if that Dogma has been violated then I'm leaving Christianity but I don't believe that that's the case and so this is part of what has driven my emphasis on the importance of the Pope I'm very very very centered on the Pope the office of Pope the man of Pope I love and respect because I'm commanded to love and respect every human but the office of Pope is infallible and it's also in defect Abul and it has divine authority so infallibility in defect ability and authority are the three attributes of the church and the Pope is the one on whom those are centered most dramatically so all of this to say that it would take a lot for me to leave Christianity well that the lynchpin for me is the Pope so if Satan can undermine my faith in the Pope then he's got me but it's gonna take a lot ok so worst-case scenario Pope Francis protects predators yeah but he's still the Pope is he a terrible Pope that's you know that's the project but who cares like he's still the Pope yeah yeah you made me laugh and I forgot what I enjoy our conversations David you're the man I appreciate you as a person thank you likewise right back at you so we need to protect the vulnerable in society we need to protect those who are young those who are mentally handicapped those who are aged everyone who is vulnerable particularly in this context of this conversation everyone that's vulnerable to sexual predation and sexual abuse okay the church teaches the Pope teaches and the bishops who teach in union with the Pope they all emphasize and they all consistently and uniformly and universally throughout space and time have taught we need to protect the vulnerable among us so we do need to concern ourselves with everyone that has authority whether it be a priest a deacon a bishop Cardinal the Pope himself I'm not gonna let my little niece go and sit on the Pope slab if I understand that he can't control himself sexually around young people okay that is common sense but to me this is the only reason to dig into the facts about this sexual proclivities with the Pope or the bishops or anyone else yes we do need to protect the vulnerable among us and we do need to be on guard so I do want to give that caveat to my defense my defense of the hierarchy does not mean turning a blind eye we need to protect ourselves and there are people that are very very criminal very very tragic and we need to protect the vulnerable against those people so I wanted to just acknowledge that for you and for the listeners I'm not dumb I'm not naive and I'm not blind and I don't want to turn a blind eye justice is real we we have to be part of meeting out God's justice and so I think that's just another side of the coin I don't want people to get the impression that everyone has carp blush just because you wear a robe booth car boswell car blush means anything goes you you have permission and license to do everything I speak three languages can't throw on the French on their time here so what have you got coming up on your podcast you've been a little bit quiet on Facebook of your right I've been dead silent almost on everything that I've only managed to stay active on Instagram with only one post today because I've been completely focused on making the course that I was telling you about only last boat which is gonna serve people who are leading ministries this is for lay and clergy alike because it's basically just teaching how to use software's to automate and save time and I'm super stoked I'm actually I'm gonna be teaching the first class here like super shortly like I'm already making sales on the on the course that is exciting well I'll be praying for you and success with that has God wants it obviously you're doing good work and the fact that you're that you are excited about it I think that energy will you know it'll open doors you know I mean I really wanted I wanted to thank you not only for everything you do but also for hooking me up with Taylor's role did you listen to my interview of him I've been a bit rakh working on this course I will I promise you I will he makes you seem like you're asleep this guy he's such a good person he's so funny yeah it was a lot of fun it really was a lot of fun so I wanted to thank you you've hooked me up with a few interesting guests and keep them coming to me but any last words to the listeners you always end on an inspirational positive note so there's plenty of inspirational things going on but I can't get over what we spoke about in the last time literally I love it and everybody else who listened to it loved it as well and it's just that a God's goodness it's so incredibly unfair than them that it's my third language it's unfathomable how much greater his goodness is I keep wanting to like reiterate that because I especially amongst my circles right now everyone is saying you're like you do know that this is like a speck in an ocean of goodness