Catholic vs. Catholic - 2018-09-04 - Jude-Xavier Murphy

Author Recorded Tuesday September 4th, 2018

There are 44 episodes in the Versus:Catholic series.

Recorded September 13th, 2017

Catholic vs. Catholic - 2017-09-13 - Thomas

Jude-Xavier Murphy is a convert to Catholicism who has written two books on the Mysteries of the Rosary, and who hopes to write two more. He has a podcast called Catholic Musings in which he reflects on the Sunday readings. I enjoyed our chat.

Catholic vs. Catholic - 2018-09-04 - Jude-Xavier Murphy

Author Recorded July 26th, 2017



These YouTube transcripts are generated automatically and are therefore unformatted and replete with errors.
hello i'm jude savior murphy and you're listening to catholic vs. catholic if you would please just tell the listeners a little bit about yourself who you are what you believe and how you came to believe it well as I say I'm Jude Saviour I'm a Catholic I live in Australia I live with my black Labrador Henry and my black cat Bernadette both named after the saints of the same names and I've come from a church family myself my father's family being Murphy's in Australia go back a long way and a long catholic history but my parents themselves weren't catholic they were both very dedicated church people my father died about five years ago and they brought me up in the faith and through my own journey i think really made my way back to the catholic church what were the first examples you had of religion in the home were you taught to pray before meals at night was there any discussion about God or Jesus or anything can you just talk a little bit with the atmosphere of religion in the home absolutely it was a home which was really filled with a religious element to it my father was a lay preacher in the Methodist Church we would always have grace before meals we were taught to pray we went to church on Sundays without fail and their own parents themselves as well were Church people's so it's really been infused in the family throughout and at one point my father did admit to me that he felt that he had when he was younger a vocation to the ministry but also felt that his vocation was one of a husband and father and certainly at a time when it was difficult with work felt that that was what he had to focus on my mother would officially be an Anglican now but she's now in a Catholic nursing home and is ministered to by the sisters and the priests there and my brother of worships in a community church in Queensland Australia how did you start into reading religion into your own heart and mind as a very young person like before puberty I think there on one level it was just the very natural thing of what we were doing as a family I was very much involved in youth groups in the church so I really have always grown up as face and worship as being a part of daily life I have to admit I've never actually left worship I've never left the church in any formal sense throughout my life I've just progressed along the road and first of all going to a more formal type of worship and a more sacramental one in the Church of England the Anglican Church the Episcopal Church and then really finding that that journey needed to go home in a sense to Rome and and that was the the final step of the journey I took okay what role did authority play was it was it central in your in your conversion into Catholicism or if not what were the what were the crucial and essential components of Catholicism that you needed or you felt that you needed I think you've hit the nail on the head there ready with authority and I think what I was finding in other denominations before was either a lack of authority or a reluctance to partake of or use Authority and so for me authority was very much the the crux of it and hand-in-hand with authority was as I said that sense of coming home and of being something which was much more universal diverse and universal mm-hmm what sort of character do you have are you intellectual are you emotional are you spontaneous or you're methodical tell me a little bit about your character as a person I'm quite methodical but I'm also I'm a writer quite artistic as well so I can be spontaneous in a planned way I do think with the heart but I've also got a legal training so it's it's quite a bit of a balancing act I think in my mind I do respond very much to the beauty of Catholicism the beauty of worship and music images but I also have a great interest in in the law and that the words of it and I did Laura's University is a degree really to get me somewhere not actually to undertake it's just I found it a very useful tool in thinking and in writing but the writing I've done I've written two books of meditations on the Rosary one on the Luminous Mysteries of the Rosary and one on the Joyful Mysteries and I'm currently working on the third book on the sorrowful mysteries of the rosary and I haven't done any paid broadcasting for a while now so I've started up a few months ago a new podcast called Catholic musings it's a very simple weekly podcast which looks at the Sunday Mass readings and just has a bit of a reflection about them not going too deep into them the whole podcast is nine minutes long and that includes a short reflection plus music as well okay I'm curious about the Rosary mysteries you're planning on doing all four yes I am yes the Luminess was actually the starting place and when I wrote it it was actually filling in a gap from another book written by a Methodist minister John Neville Ward who wrote a book a number of years ago called five for sorrow ten for joy and that book was of fifteen reflections on the fifteen mysteries of the rosary as there were at that time from a Methodist background which was quite interesting but they're really beautifully crafted and written mysteries and then of course we had the gift of the luminous mysteries and I started thinking about perhaps filling that gap because John Neville Ward had since died filling that gap with a new book to accompany it but I have to say that as I was writing those mysteries I then thought to myself well I can do the lot and I'd really like to do the lot so I changed tack a bit and a change from the style that he had done five for sorrow ten for joy and completed the first two the books which is light from light the Luminous Mysteries of the Rosary and then almost immediately went into writing begotten made the Joyful Mysteries of the Rosary can you talk to me in really brief overview about little things that maybe the listener hasn't considered when they prayed the Rosary even though they may have been praying the rosary their whole lives you might have just a little idea or a little insight or a little inspiration that would help illuminate some of these things for us certainly the way the books themselves have been written is that they're not to be used while you're playing the Rosary they are very much based on the actual mysteries of the rosary if you're using them with the rosary I would suggest perhaps reading them before meditating upon the rosary and maybe it might just get the brain going in a certain way but each of the mysteries that I've written has been written about the place in the Holy Land where they are set so I've done a number of pilgrimages to the Holy Land and actually pilgrimage is very much a recurring theme in what I write about and in what I talk about and that whole idea of being pilgrims so each of the mysteries focuses on a place of pilgrimage so for instance in the Luminous Mysteries with the mystery of the transfiguration of jesus i write about the experience of going to mount table of journeying up that hill of the view from it and all so it in a sense of the feeling of those disciples who were with him at the time in the mystery of the birth at Bethlehem I talk about the actual Church of the Nativity and its history and that almost immediate history after the death of Jesus of being a place of pilgrimage and then being a place which the Romans tried to cover up and to hide as a place of pilgrimage which did the best thing for the church because it almost put a neon light above it saying this is where the birth took place so I think that's the general theme that I that I have going through it and will then be continuing with the the sorrowful mysteries so for instance I'm writing at the MoMA about the crucifixion and about even just in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre going up those few steps from the main door to where the actual site of the crucifixion is and that idea that the closeness of that to the tomb and which some people can't get their minds around but when you actually look at the archaeology and you understand that site much more in you you try and take away the image of the church that's there and go back to the history of the site you can begin to see in a completely new way I pray the rosary every day or I try to it took me years to get in the habit of saying it every day it was really a struggle I think because of Satan I was in the grip of Satan for 25 years before I converted in 2009 and so I really think that he kept me away from the rosary and I just struggled and I persisted and now I'm in the habit of saying it every day but the one thing I'm working on is entering more deeply into the meditations can you help me to understand the relationship between the visualization which I love and then the Hail Marys which I feel like I'm neglecting I'm not paying attention to these words I've heard different versions about how we're supposed to pay attention or not to the words of the Hail Mary can you just put my mind at ease that I'm not neglecting Mary by ignoring the words I don't think one is neglecting Mary at all by not necessarily being particular to every word and what you're saying in every word in the same way in the liturgy when we go to the mass there are definitely words and there are times when we say the words and we're not actually focusing on the words but we might be focusing on what's at home but at the same time we might be focusing on what we're visually seeing at the altar and there's certainly nothing wrong with with doing that listening to one of your podcasts yesterday and somebody was talking about the rosary and how they began really by working on the engine of the rosary and the words and then later on it transformed in a sense to the meditation and I think that's really what the words are there for the words are in a way the wallpaper of the room of meditation there the music in the room of the edit Asian in which you're taking part and it just keeps you going in the same way in the mass the priest has certain words that he prays and that they're there in the missile that he is supposed to say and they're just to keep him praying while he's doing something else and I think that's what the words are doing in the Rosary they're keeping us praying whilst at the same time we're trying to do something else because there are times we can't meditate and on those times we can't meditate the words come to the forefront and that's a good thing and then on the times when we are meditating and we do sort of lose sense of the words that also is a good thing and I think they're both there and that's the beauty of the dynamic of the rosary and the balance of it mm-hmm what do you do when you find yourself rushing if you've had a long day and you don't have a lot of time would you rather skip a few decades and just go ahead a regular pace or would you burn through it like I do I think again it's that that dual nature of the Rosary that there are times I would go through it quickly and just feel live at least accomplish something in a word way but then there are times I would just focus on the one decade and again it's this whole area of there's no right or wrong and I think this is one thing that many people have coming to the church and converts to Catholicism converts to Christianity as a whole whirring sometimes about getting the small things right when actually that's there to help you enter into the larger mystery nice yeah I like your approach where it's an organic whole it's flexible its adaptable and you're in relationship it sounds like a very natural way to approach prayer in general so I like that appreciate that answer I want to segue now in to Marian apparitions what do you think about Fatima that apparition and maybe some of the other ones maybe some of your favorite Marian apparitions please Fatima just really interests me and I would very much like to go there and I haven't been there but everything I see about Fatima just invigorates me more and more of the rosary and indeed about the revelation of God himself I've been to a couple of shrines of Our Lady I've been to knock in Ireland where the Holy Father has just been but also I lived in England for quite a while and I've been to Walsingham in England and I don't know if you're familiar with there but that goes back to the ten sixties and was a shrine which was and is still known as England's Nazareth because it was at a time when it was dangerous to travel to the Holy Land and so there was a holy house built there and it became England's Nazareth it was a shrine which was destroyed by Henry the eighth's and interestingly enough was restored by an Anglican priest father hope pattern but now there is also a Catholic shrine which is based at the slipper Chapel the chapel a mile out of the village where people took their shoes off and made that final pilgrimage into Walsingham itself so it's a very interesting place of not just the appearance of Our Lady of healing but also of ecumenism there between the Church of England and the Catholic Church in England in Australia we don't really have a visitation of Our Lady but I think again one can make these spiritual pilgrimages to places so in the same way that I think pilgrimage to the Holy Land it does an incredible amount for one when one can't go there one can actually make a spiritual pilgrimage in the same way while see'em itself was a spiritual pilgrimage to Nazareth I don't want to get negative but I sometimes ask my guests about Magic Oriya I'm firmly convinced it's demonic what have you heard what do you think what's your hunch about madri boria I caught myself give my own view on it because I've not been there but I do know certainly one person who has been there who was just transfixed by it and felt an incredible presence and said that he saw the dancing son while he was there at the end of the day people are finding there a presence of God and they are finding an element of healing and reconciliation and I think that's the best gift that it has but I have to say I wouldn't want to judge too much on a place that I hadn't been to or to be fair read enough about yeah I'm just currently reading a big fat book that's very critical of it so that's probably where I get a lot of my perspective but even before reading this book I was suspicious I want to talk about st. Louie De Montfort he's one of my favorite Saints and he's very very very important in terms of my devotion to the rosary and my devotion to Mary and I've done the consecration have you done that that consecration or st. Maximilian Colby's consecration or any consecration to Mary no I haven't I've done consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary but I haven't done the the one that you've just been describing and I'd be very interested to know more about it and the effect that it's had upon you the basic idea is much like st. Therese de Liz you you know the little flower much like her little way st. Louie de Mol for talks about the little way the easiest way to heaven the easiest way to heaven is through Mary because instead of chiseling a big block of marble arduously you just melt yourself and pour yourself into the mold of Mary and it's quick it's easy it's cheap and it's the best so do you have any favorite Marian particularly Marian Saints like Saint Bernard all of the saints or Marian but some more emphasize it more than others who are some of your favorite Marian Saints I was all prepared just to come out with general Saints I have to say having your podcast before but now you focused it on on Marian Saints well when I was actually thinking about Saints generally the one Saint I actually included was Mary herself because I I think going back to what you just said there about chiseling the rock there's no need to reinvent the wheel we have in Mary the only person that we know of who knew of our Lord from before his birth right through to the Pentecost day because everybody else that is mentioned either died before the the crucifixion or came into his life later on there may obviously have been other people that knew him throughout but nobody is recorded unlike Mary's so I think for her it really is that case of not needing to reinvent the wheel and to see that the perfect example of not just mother who had bit of sainthood I think when it comes to Marian Saints I think one that takes the name of Mary is our own Saint in Australia Mary of the Cross who is Mary MacKillop who was not so long ago canonized and she was a woman who lived a very hard life in Australia at the time and our first Saint but she had a great work and vocation in the teaching of the young and of children but she was also excommunicated from the church at one point and the strong Australian perseverance that she has echoes that incredible perseverance of Our Lady who was at the foot of the cross and just experienced so much suffering of the soul and suffering of the heart and I aligned that very much to Mary MacKillop Mary of the Cross who suffered so much in her excommunication but then was able to rejoice in a sense in that resurrection of being reconciled with the church who are some of your other general favorite Saints I can't go beyond my own name my confirmation name and Jude Saviour and Jude particularly because I've been through some fairly drastic moments in my life and turned to some dude in novenas dis and Jude and certainly you know that that whole adage of prayer is never answered as as we might ask of it and and that certainly was the case in my life but I at the same time I do know that those novenas Thyssen Jude have borne so much fruit and I can't underestimate the importance of anybody who's going a difficult time in their own life turning to sin shoot and entering into a novena z-- to him and Xavier really because I grew up in Asia I've spent a lot of my time in Asia and just as somebody who's brought the gospel to Asia but also was on the precipice of bringing it to China and dying on the edge of the Gateway to China a bit like Moses seeing the Promised Land but at the same time what Francis Xavier has given to Asia and the building up of the faith there so yes certainly my history growing up in in Asia has been one that means that Francis Xavier is a very important Saint in my life I want to get your opinion please on China because I have a friend that lives in Taiwan and he's very very very very very annoyed with Pope Francis and with the Catholic Church what is your perspective on that because my only defense of the Pope in the church is in very very general terms namely that the Pope does not have ill will to harm anyone in Taiwan he's not seeking to do anything evil but what can you say more specifically about the geopolitical nonsense that I hate so much but which is taking place in the church in China I think that the church has got to do something with China and I have to say that the small movements that we've seen by the Holy Father on the outside which obviously we don't know necessarily what is going on on the inside and underneath I think they're important and I think they're necessary at the end of the day I think we only have to look at what happened to Eastern Europe and to Poland and the work of John Paul the second there to realize just how much possibility there is in the papacy and the opportunities that that are there for change China will not change overnight but it also has to be dealt with in a completely different diplomatic way from many other countries and that's not because they're special it's just because of a different way that they undertake things I don't think nests thoroughly dealing with them on that level excuses abuse I I don't but I think at the same time you can't not try and and work for the future of the church and also in a sense of future of religion and religious liberty in China without conversation and without some sort of interplay with them so I certainly understand what your friend in Taiwan would be thinking I've spent a lot of my life in Hong Kong which of course is undergone a great transformation from the end of British colonial rule to now being part of China again with the reunification and there indeed are worries for the future for religious liberty and what they see is happening in China I think really that's as much as I'd probably be prepared to say on the matter I just think the important thing is to to pray for the future and of religion in China for Catholics who were there and not to forget to pray for those who are in the wake of it and that's places like Taiwan Hong Kong and Macau mm-hmm since we're speaking about Pope Francis do you mind giving a sort of general defense of his pontificate of his character of his unique fast and loose approach to pastoral care can you defend him in a way that atheists and and Protestants can sort of appreciate and and actually digest and come away thinking hey maybe he's not so bad I think in some ways actually it's many atheists and Protestants who I've I've met who have a high regard for here then some Catholics I I certainly was a great admirer of Pope Benedict but I don't see myself in one camp or another you know for Cephas or Paul or whatever at the end of the day the Pope is the Pope he is there by the grace of God and through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and as a result of that I certainly give him my allegiance as the Pope I think he has different ways of doing things but then there have been very many different ways for quite a long time I think we've experienced such a long papacy in John Paul the second that we sometimes forget how the papacy can change very easily in its style and the way it's presented from one Pope to the next and I think then the the fact of after having such a long papacy with John Paul the second to Benedict which wasn't maybe such a great transference unless you were the the liberal media and then to Francis who certainly is a very different style but at the end of the day is is the Holy Father mm-hmm I hate politics but I want your perspective on this whole left-right conservative liberal progressive split that is dominant in the West ever since the French Revolution really I've met a lot of set of accantus online and they're very they're very hateful they're very rebellious against the church there are other people on the right also within the church that are antagonistic towards anything that they think might be left-leaning or in their view socialist or communist and far from it the Church's position on communism is very clear but they still get paranoid about it we all know about people that are on the left and the church that are fighting for abortion and women's ordination but what about people on the right within the church what's your experience and do you identify left right center or do you just identify as a Catholic I I identify as a Catholic I think that that's got to be my answer I certainly when it comes to setup can't ists just find the whole situation bizarre so I don't have any time for that I have friends on both the right and maybe not the extreme left of the the Catholic Church but certainly of the left I have those who would like to see changes I have those who certainly think that the changes have gone too far my latin is appalling but I've certainly worshiped at Latin masses and I've worshipped at very liberal centers my natural Melia is to go somewhere which it perhaps you is more traditional in its worship but using the Novus Ordo I think at the end of the day everyone is a part of the Catholic Church the Catholic Church is made up of so many members that they will have different political views or they'll bring those different political views into the church sphere but at the same time I think as Catholics there has to be that understanding of what the church is and what the church says and it doesn't say that because of its political power it says that because of its spiritual role mm-hmm I don't like talking about it but what do you think about the sex abuse scandal or whatever it's called in the u.s. right now well we have the same yeah you have the same thing in Australia in Australia I'd be very much so in Australia it's not helped by the fact that we have a very anti Church media and so a lot of strong calls really for the church just to be thrown away and to lose everything that it has without actually acknowledging the good work it does none of us are fortunate to be living at a time of this going on but it will pass and I think that is the most important thing the church and society as a whole has learnt so much as a result of this and continues to learn and it will one day be history and we still have the gospel to preach and the gospel to get on with and I don't think that we can be taken away from that and I think part of that is we saw that in the Holy Fathers prayer recently of wanting in a sense the guidance of when to know to speak and when to know to be quiet and that is important because as terrible as the the current scandals are the church still can't be dictated to in its agenda by a liberal world it still has to put the gospel to the world and to stand up and to proclaim the faith I'm a convert to the faith as an adult I converted in 2009 at the age of 39 and I went from atheist to monotheists in a heartbeat and then I approached Catholicism I was surprised how open I was to it but it was st. Augustine's Confessions that really melted my heart now my question for you has to do with acumen ISM and dialog with non Catholics why do people not focus on doctrine for example I have a lot of acquaintances on Facebook who talked about the pedophilia they talk about the homosexuality in the church and when I come back with a very simple question well what does the church teach about homosexuality what does the church teach about pedophilia what does the church teach about rape they don't want to talk about what the church actually teaches as doctrine they just want to point and make fun of those who fail to rise up to the Church's doctrine please explain to me what's going on here are they supernaturally blind or am i supernaturally given the gift of faith so that I can see these things that they can't see well I thinking first of all definitely in the sealing of the Holy Spirit we are given those gifts so there's no doubt that we are given gifts to help us on that Christian journey in which we are to nurture but I think another element in it is your purpose and your wanting to find out is clear because of your faith and where you want to be that is a very different agenda from somebody who is wanting to cut down they're not there to grow their understanding of what the church is I mean in Australia I don't know if you have the same way you are we have the the phrase the tall poppy syndrome we're certainly in the media and so on people are allowed to rise up as celebrities or something and then cut down as the tall poppy people are enjoying the opportunity to cut down mm-hmm I again I don't want to dwell on the negative but I do want your feedback I ask a lot of my Catholic guests my faithful Catholic guests about the wolves in sheep's clothing that jesus warned us about do you have any sense of proportion like is it is it something we could just dismiss as negligible numbers or is it is it significant what's your position on that well I think one the number one is significant you know it doesn't matter how many there are if it's happening it is significant I think there's a couple of things to bear in mind or just to keep in mind throughout it I certainly when it comes to priests on the level of the sacraments and so on is the importance of remembering the efficacy of the sacraments no matter what that person believes or what they're doing and I think that's important for all Catholic faithful to remember that the sacraments are not affected by the behavior of the people that are distributing them the other part of it is prayer to pray for the priests it's not just those on the outside of the church who can be converted even priests who have gone astray who are lost can be converted again and can be helped on that road to conversion and even those who aren't necessarily you know to use the phrase wolves in sheep clothing just the importance of praying for your priests full-stop I remember I went to my parish church and Easter morning and our priest came out as a wonderful man and he just laid his soul bare really to the congregation and said what a difficult time he was having and please pray for me and that's something that we should be doing for our priests every day we cannot expect our priests to be men of prayer and love if we are not backing them up with prayer for that mm-hmm Pope Francis emphasizes the need to be cautious or wary of clericalism falling into clericalism it sounds like that is at the heart of your concern that we don't make a distance between us we are one people we are one we are all by virtue of baptism prophet priest and King so we can all support each other through prayer and the sacraments certainly I mean we do have different roles and they are very specifically different roles and I think one of the problems with the term clericalism is people use that term to cover priests who dress up like priests and are seen as priests and that's not clericalism clericalism is the abuse of the role and the structures within the role clericalism is when they're actually abusing the role that they have for their own gain and certainly within some group within the church to do that but yes again it comes back I think all to the importance just of prayer they pray for us at the altar we have got to pray for them if we're not praying for them who is praying for the priests mm-hmm there's so many ways that you can move and develop what are you excited about today for the near short-term future in your own faith journey I think one is just knowing and learning more about other people's journey and I'm rereading at the moment Thomas mertens life in the 7-story mountain and I just find each page of that almost an exciting venture he writes so well but also just the very fact that this is somebody very close to our own lifetime who walked the streets of New York and yet he has this wonderful ability to take us into that stillness of contemplative life I think along with that of seeing other people's journey and my journey is one a pilgrimage and pilgrimage as I said with my books is very much at the heart of a lot of what I write and what I talk about and how I interpret what I talk about particularly I think that idea that God Himself is a pilgrim I think that we as humans make ourselves so self-important that we end up claiming to be the ones who are looking for God and found Jesus forgetting that actually Jesus found us a long time earlier than that much much earlier than that and God is a pilgrim and that's why I think the places of pilgrimage is so important because they are places where prayer has been valid as TS Eliot says in his poem little Gidding you know to kneel where prayer has been valid where other people have prayed and where God knows that we are vulnerable to his love and really that the barrier between heaven and earth is tissue-thin so from my excitement is to continue that pilgrimage whether it's actually two places of pilgrimage particularly the Holy Land which I love so much or the pilgrimage to mass each day you know if we can actually see going to mass as being a pilgrimage with a purpose at the end of that journey I think it transforms what going to mass is I want to ask you because you have a podcast how long have you been doing your podcast now the current podcast has been about three months ok but this brings to mind the question of the new evangelization what are the pros and the cons what are the benefits and what are the dangers of putting myself out there with religious podcast can you talk me through that well I think one of the dangers of any religious podcast is the authenticity of the message the assurance of that authenticity because those of us who do podcasts are not licensed in a sense by bishops to do so so there isn't a licence to to preach and to teach in the same way that one might have if one was a deacon preaching at the Sunday Mass or anything like that so I think that the biggest danger is the authenticity of the message and I think it's a double sided danger I think it's for those who are looking for podcasts and I think it's for all of us myself and yourself included who are involved in those podcasts and just to be very careful that we are in line with church teaching and to be very careful when they're looking for them that they are in line or that we can recognize when they're not because anybody can put up a podcast with the name Catholic in it and stay anything and of course these days people believe the first thing that they come across and find but on the other hand I think one of the advantages is almost incarnation or because it's people finding people who are very similar to them who sometimes are struggling with the same questions they have and it's a gateway for many people who are frightened to enter into a church it's a gateway for them to begin to find the answers to those questions mm-hmm based on what you heard from my two most recent interviews with Catholic was there any red flag or orange flag or yellow flag that you noticed no and I think one of the good things was because it's not necessarily a didactic well from what other to I heard they're not didactic they they're biographical yes exactly and I think the ones that I try and do I mean I've had theological training and I certainly as I say try as much as possible to include the Catechism when when I can and when it's appropriate but at the same time they're reflections on the reading they're not I'm not necessarily teaching about the readings for the Sunday Mass I'm just trying to give people an opportunity to be prepared for a Sunday with maybe something in mind that might then trigger them to look at the readings in a different way and to take from that Sunday Mass what the church and the priest or the deacon of the the preacher who is licensed to preach then gives them as that nourishment for the week following mm-hmm I do have on my website and on all of my social media a disclaimer and it says if ever I contradict Jesus Christ or the church then I do so unwillingly and I'm happy to repent and recant and all that sort of thing okay so I think that that's important I think it's important that people know that I am a member of the church but I'm not a licensed representative of the authentic teaching everything that comes out of my mouth but at the same time even the great saints like Saint Agustin or Saint Thomas Aquinas they had opinions that differed from what it was eventually established and they may even have had some opinions may have said some things that contradicted what was already established but they did so unwillingly and certainly not as rebels right so I think that there's a wide margin and there's a lot of latitude for expressing ourselves with a wholesome piety which is not maybe airtight as long as we're willing to be corrected this is the definition of heresy is that you are obstinate in your refusal to be corrected right so as long as you're not obstinate you know if anyone corrects and I'm happy to accept the correction as long as the correction is actually Catholic yeah I think one of my favorite books novels is Graham Greene's Monsignor Quixote I don't know if you're familiar with it but it was made into a wonderful film which i think is only on VHS now with Alec Guinness and Leo McKern but yet Bren Greene's Monsignor Quixote which in which he goes on a travel with his communist friend the mare and and one evening they're drinking wine and they they go through a couple of bottles and the mayor says that he can't understand the Trinity you know could the Monsignor please explain it to human and Monsignor Quixote rather beautifully says well you know you see these two bottles they're of the same substance of the same vine and yet you know they're like the Trinity the Father and the son the mayor understands this and then says well what about the holy spirit and they've had a third half bottle to drink as well so they're quite drunk at this point and Quixote says oh well you know the Holy Spirit is this third bottle it gave us the kick that we need and then almost immediately he goes into a depression because he has given wrong instruction because he has represented the Holy Spirit by a half bottle where as it should be a full bottle equal to the father and the son and I think that's a beautiful image of even a a priest it albeit in a novel even a priest acknowledging the need to ask for forgiveness for wrong instruction hmm so at the end of my interviews I always ask my guests to give a little message of hope so just a general message what could you say to anyone there might be out there listening no it's just to keep in mind that you are never alone even when you are physically alone you always have that presence of God with you and as you try and make your journey towards him he is without a doubt trying to make that journey towards you again coming to that whole idea of pilgrimage even you know if you're not in a situation through money or health to make a pilgrimage to the Holy Land open the Gospels there's a pilgrimage to the holy land there and as you make that pilgrimage know that the god of the Gospels the God of the Holy Land is journeying towards you and will not leave you alone all you got to do leave you alone all you got to do

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