hello my name is Bob any art and you're listening to Catholic versus Protestant so tell us a little bit about yourself if you would please who you are what you believe and why you believe what you believe I've been a talk show host for 28 years on the most powerful Christian radio station in America Denver's kale I am 670 K L TT 50,000 watts and I'm the pastor of Denver Bible Church but I grew up very differently I grew up a Catholic I went eight years Catholic Grammar School in New Jersey st. Anthony's in Hawthorne I was an altar boy I read the readings at the mass the lectern I think we called that I used to walk to Mass a couple miles hours ahead of my family so that I could get there and be an altar boy and read and I would do that for two or three masses on a Sunday morning for quite some time so David I was very interested in the Lord but through events in my life and over time I ended up with a relationship with Jesus Christ that actually brought me out of the church and so now I'm the pastor of a fundamentalist Bible Church Denver Bible Church before we get into your beliefs and how the contrast with my own can you just tell me a little bit about your very early childhood I like to get a little snapshot of some of your earliest memories that have to do with God and religion and this is positives and negatives yeah I never had any doubt that God existed I was fascinated with science and with things that a lot of kids maybe don't get fascinated with I used to listen to talk radio out of New York City and the talk-show host name was Michael Jackson and I would call in late night maybe midnight or so and talk as a young kid talk about whatever he was talking about foreign policy or whatever so it's always very pensive thoughtful I remember in second grade the teacher Miss Duffy her her brother was a priest I overheard her say to another teach I'd like two kids to see the Apostles Creed but I need a copy of it I got to get a copy of it so I could get it to the kids and she meant like a mimeograph copy you know but I didn't know that so I went home it was a Friday when I told my mother that I had a copy the Apostles Creed and we're a little kid in second great you know that's like a big thing and it took me I don't know a couple hours so my mother's like I can't believe your teacher would give you an assignment like this so he straightened it all out the next week and that but um I learned a lot at Catholic school for eight years academically but very little spiritually and it when I was in high school one of the gals she was killed in a drunk driving accident and the mass was packed of course whenever a child dies it's common and the priest doing the funeral read these verses that I was from in a short everyone that she was in heaven and I went up to him afterward after the cemetery and everything and said why is it when when you and I talked and I asked you questions you say we cannot know if we're saved but in this funeral you you just told everyone not almost a thousand people that we know she's in heaven even though there was really virtually no evidence from her life that she even believed in God and the answer he gave me was pretty painful he said well we have to be concerned about the feelings of the family and I thought as a kid I mean I'm still a teenager just starting in high school and I thought you mean you would lie to everyone about the most important things just to not hurt people's feelings and so anyway I felt like I was pushed out of the church David and just studied the Bible with people around me it ended up years later the pastor of a Bible Church interesting I won't dwell too long on biography but can you just describe if it's not too painful the reaction of some of the more devout Catholics in your immediate family when you sort of came out of the closet that you were leaving the church yeah my mother was the most kin turned our extended Italian family we just went to Rome in fact in November every couple of years we do a Bible tour of Israel Greece Turkey Italy and so we went to Italy again so uh even though my extended family were basically Catholic at least nominally Catholic my mother was the one most concerned we asked our priest to come to Bible study with us Father Stepien he did and his take on the exodus was that it was more like mythology certainly Genesis was all mythology much of the Old Testament it was hard to discern where he thought the mythology stopped in the history began with the genealogy of Jesus being mostly mythology the early parts of it so my mother was concerned but I don't know if it was a few months and then she went with us to regular weekly Bible study and then church so at that time this was in the early 70s in northern New Jersey Hawthorne New Jersey there was an exodus of people around us of certainly dozens of people entire families and I say dozens it was probably scores of people the family that owned the nicest restaurant in northern New Jersey scored a doze they left the church at the same time we did and so anyway it was sort of an exodus what's the relationship like now is your mother still alive yeah she's in the next room in fact I'm in our studio and my mother has been our she moved to Colorado to help with our radio outreach and this happened back in the 70s so okay so she's no longer practicing Roman Catholic that's right and I could list all the members of our family but then not only our family from when I was a freshman in the local public high school all the families there that began coming to Bible studies you know and it's some time after that the Catholic Church had a Bible study movement where my first seven years I think in grammar school we never saw a Bible and then they brought in stacks they all these bookshelves in the classrooms and put Bibles in them so maybe a couple times in a year we actually got a Bible but David I I went to the rectory with our parish that's where the priests live and I asked one of the priests he knew I was studying the Bible and we had questions so I asked him about I said well I have these Bible verses here that that say they seem to say you can know you're going to heaven and he said well you got to read those in a Catholic Bible I said this is a Catholic I don't know I didn't have my Bible with me I just wrote down my verses and so he went into his bedroom he couldn't find a Bible so we went into their library they have a nice room that was their library maybe for priests and they didn't have a Bible so it went into the church and we had to go on the altar the big Bible used in the mass you know you use two hands to turn the pages and that Bible we used to look up my half a dozen verses and they all said exactly what I had written down you know I want to talk about some of our differences but before we started recording this you said you were interested in the question of creation can you just sort of give your position and then respond to what you heard on some of my recent episodes yes I listened to a fascinating podcast you had where you talked about being persuaded theologically that young Earth Creationism is possibly true and the observation that you shared was that it's really not conceivable that a sinless human being could come from the womb of an animal and you said also that that was a repugnant notion and I so appreciated that and when you when you tell kids that they're animals in our schools of course in America our public schools are officially godless that's the curriculum and the policies are godless and they tell the kids that they're animals it's not surprising when some act like animals if you tell them they're animals it's a natural conclusion that it would be okay to act like an and so I think that Darwinism has had tremendous destructive effect on the world and we are not animals were made in God's image and likeness and Jesus took the books of Genesis and Exodus Leviticus numbers and Deuteronomy you know the Pentateuch the first five books of the Bible Jesus took them literally and he spoke about the individuals and he spoke of them as real people in the events as real events and that God made us male and female well if the early books of the Bible are mythological then did God really make us male and female and did God really Institute marriage and even the 10 commandments of course come from the Exodus and we've noticed David we've noticed that when people reject the creation that is the six creation days almost without fail an institution that rejects those creation days a church a denomination a seminary whatever they then go on to reject the global flood and they reject Babel and the origin of languages and they reject Moses the plagues the Exodus they reject all of this and it tends to go as a unit the first thing you hear is well we believe in the Bible but we think the first days are long periods of time as a day like the day of salvation of course a day could be a long period of time and so we say well that's a very reasonable position but then what happens as soon as we buy into that then we find out that the order of the creation days have to be rearranged because the order of events that Moses writes that God did things in Genesis 1 they're not the order of events from the Big Bang and Darwinism and so as soon as they say the days were long periods of time then they reordered the days they want the Sun before the plants and they want the birds after the land animals so first they're not evening and morning the second day evening and morning the third day normal 24 first through long periods of time then the days and Genesis are out of order then where Genesis states that there were no thorns before Adam sinned has God cursed the ground because of Adam's sin they say no there were thorns before man because we have fossils of thorns which we do and when God said everything was very good you know at the end of day 6 everything was very good it was a perfect paradise God created the fossil record that they think is a record of hundreds of millions of years before man that shows tremendous suffering and pain and death yet the Bible says there was no death before Adam sinned and that that sure seems to mean human death but also the death and suffering of animals you know like an elephant or a horse or a dog or a cat the kind of animals you can have relationship with it doesn't make sense that they would suffer the way the fossil records show suffering in a perfect creation and then David they also reject once they say the days were long periods of time they reject the great ages of the patriarchs who lived before the flood like Methuselah and Adam and so on and then you get to the flood and they reject the flood and and this isn't this isn't just coincidental they'll all fall like dominoes because the record of fossils and the geologic column either that's a record of a global flood or it's a record of billions of years there's your choices I used to be a theist for 25 years I was atheist and the people I was hanging out with weren't exactly the pillars of society I entered the Mafia at age 18 I was hanging out with criminals and drug dealers sex workers and stuff like that it's not nearly as glamorous as you might imagine and it was very prudish and conservative all the while degree just because that's my nature but I still was moving in that world and I still live in that world because I lived in Montreal Quebec Canada which is sort of the Las Vegas of Canada but I just wanted to mention some of these sort of cues that struck my ear differently once I converted in 2009 10 years ago it didn't have quite the same ring to it when I would talk to a friend an atheist friend and I just asked them what they did that weekend and they would talk about you know having some sort of wild animal sex like monkey sex or something like that and then what what else did you do oh just you know veg doh and then what else did you do oh I got stoned so if you look at this progression you see animal like a lower beast like an animal like a monkey having that monkey sex and then you talk about vegetating in front of the television like a vegetable and then you talk about being stoned like a stone like now yeah yeah edible mineral vegetable it's pretty good so it really it really struck me that God did not create us for that that's not adult entertainment when you walk around downtown Montreal you'll see adult stores and you will go into these adult stores and it's butt plugs and dildos and god-knows-what robots now they have sex robots and stuff like that so this to me is the opposite of adult to be an adult is to be fully alive to be embracing your human nature not denying any part of your human nature yeah and to be respectful toward yourself towards others and above all to God so I just wanted to mention the sort of reversal where people are willingly sinking into the mire literally people who reject God debase themselves to nothing more than bodily functions so their communication is often filled with vulgarity constant references to defecation reproductive organs sex acts you know they hardly have a context for thinking of themselves let alone others outside of that realm and their vulgarity drips with this intolerance anger hatred toward those they disagree with and we're told that they're the beautiful people who don't need God you know they believe in free speech and tolerance and diversity and respect for all people and it's all utter hypocrisy you know I just had a long conversation with one of my most rabid anti religious atheists on my on my youtube channel he's been emailing me back and forth and he leaves a lot of nasty comment but I just asked him what is the point of life what is the lasting consequence what are you going for what is the meaning what is the purpose he said well there is no lasting purpose but in this life I hope to get laid meaning to have sex and so I just simply said well let's you know if that's your goal I don't think talking to me is going to bring the ladies you know it's not gonna get you the ladies it's not but you know that his only hope he admitted that his only hope is that he might have some good sex that's it yeah in fact on a college campus you know if the professor wants to have sex with students he's obviously not going to accept the traditional moral foundation of Western culture because then that would interfere with his lust and he doesn't have enough self-control to actually look honestly at the evidence because he's lying to himself if it's the difference between getting a woman or not he will lie to himself David I don't know if you've noticed the couple places where the Bible in the New Testament talks about evidence like in that the Epistle to the Hebrews faith is the evidence of things not seen so I have faith that gravity you know is a real force and if I step off a mountaintop we climb the 14 errs here in Colorado I'm gonna be hurt so I have faith in gravity even though I can't see it so faith is the proper response to the evidence of things not seen and that's you know that's not an ignorant statement from the perspective of modern science even from modern science that's pretty insightful yeah how do Christians justify Jesus words for example about Noah and the flood how do they justify that and remain Christian and at the same time distance themselves from being a young earth creationist and then a Part B to that question would be are there a lot of people that are afraid to come out of the claws as being young earth creationists yeah there are many professional scientists who are afraid and we know that I've been interviewing scientists for decades studies have been done I'll be interviewing dr. Jerry Bergman in studio in a couple weeks he's got I think four PhDs and he has documented what he calls the slaughter of the dissidents countless professionals well published extremely successful who get driven out of their profession for only doubting Darwin let alone supporting creation or intelligent design so within our religious Bible colleges Christian University seminaries they've almost all gone to Old Earth no global flood no Exodus the vast majority there's a handful that still teach what Jesus taught in Australia there's a huge creation ministry called CMI creation Ministries International and the president of that group was having lunch with the president of their local Christian University and he read this verse to the president of the University where Jesus said that God made us male and female at the beginning of the creation at the beginning so that would mean not after millions of years not after billions but at the beginning so the president of this Christian University said well we know more about science than Jesus did and Dave yeah you're laughing is right and and this this guy almost fell off his chair because Christianity teaches that Jesus is God the Son the creator of the universe John 1:1 you know whether you read it in the Greek or the English Jesus created everything that was created and to say that we know more than he did about any topic Wow Wow it's it's crazy you know there there there's so many questions I want to ask you I guess I want to talk a little bit about the science there's anthropology ancient societies and all that sort of thing and then there's cosmology like the the light from the stars couldn't possibly have reached us from such great distances that's one of the ones that bugs me a little bit I don't want God setting this phony hearse at stage where everything's just set up to look old how would you deal with that one and some of the other issues that are that seem very damning to our position well we love all these things and I have eagerly taken on so many old earthers or atheist scientists and well first something I heard you say you mentioned the cultures that have a genealogy as going back to Noah and Nolan's Noah's sons Shem ham and Japheth I thought that was a brilliant observation and then you or your guests said well there they also have flood stories and then your guests said something that was really not accurate he said yeah but those flood stories are nothing like in Genesis well anthropologists have documented over 200 flood stories from all over the world and they have uncanny similarities they're not all the same there's only one book that is the Scriptures God's Word so these are sort of darkened corporate memories of the global flood but they have things like you know people in animals being saved in some kind of vessel and the guy whether he's guilty mesh or whatever his name is he lets a bird go and the bird comes back and they try to figure out when to get out of the boat and the similarities are astounding yes there are plenty of differences but the major themes it's shocking how many cultures have those same themes in their flood story so you were right and when we look at dinosaur bones the biggest thing is the dinosaur soft tissue they're breaking open dinosaur bones and museums all over the world they're publishing the results in the journals nature science paleontology and they're finding that they're loaded with soft tissue dinosaur blood blood vessels proteins this is the greatest discovery in the history of paleontology and the media is scared to death to report it because it screams out that the dinosaur bones are young so 26 science journals in the past few years 20 different journals these are all leading mainstream journals have published dinosaurs soft tissue where we sit there sequencing proteins of dinosaurs at Harvard we have DNA now from a hadrosaur and a t-rex it's not the full genome it's just little bits but the evidence is the dinosaur bones are more like Egyptian mummies than they are like their stone in 80 million years old so that's from geology and googling dinosaurs soft tissue really opens people's eyes but then you go to cosmology and that's a fabulous challenge a God gave us a brain he said come let us reason together and so when someone says well the Bible implies the earth is less than 10,000 years old but we have stars and galaxies that are not only a million light years away but billions of light years away so surely it cannot be that the universe is young because the light would have never reached us and I think you already said David that you don't believe that God would have created the world with a false impression like a fake history in the world like one guy wrote a book ages ago and the Atheist talked about it almost every day and in his book he said that the fossils were created by God in the rocks to make it look like there were animals that were killed that's really stupid and no no church no denomination no school I'll ever pick that up but the Atheist talked about it as though that's what we all teach that God put a false record in the fossils well it would be just as wrong to say God put a false record in the light from the stars but what does the light from the stars tell us if an atheist who believes in the Big Bang at the universe is you know 13.8 billion years olds they have a star light in time problem theirs is called the horizon problem in the fact that the universe has basically the same temperature across the entire universe in every direction we look at even though there's not been enough time for light to travel from one end of the universe to the other so that the temperature could even out it's called the horizon problem and the temperature is about the same - like one part in 10,000 or something like that and so that's their horizon problem and they've created wild secondary and tertiary assumptions wild assumptions to try to answer their starlight and time problem when I think the answer is in the Bible has seven different books of the Bible and eleven different verses say that God stretched out the heavens and so God is God he's able to do that if he wants to so I think that indicates it wasn't a bang everything it didn't start from a central you know Big Bang event but instead by God stretching out the heavens literally I believe he pulled the light from the stars stellar nucleosynthesis he pulled the light out of the stars and he brought it to the earth because that was his purpose his purpose was for the earth for the firmament of the heavens to be majestic and for them to mark the days and the months and the seasons and so on and so because it was his purpose he didn't want to create Adam and have Adam wait you know 40 million years until he could see he didn't want to even wait for years till he could see Alpha Centauri he wanted Adam that first night to be able to look up at the heavens and be in awe of his creator so that's how I believe I believe that God stretched the light so the light actually came from every star in every galaxy to the earth and beyond filling the universe what about geocentrism I've heard some arguments that sound pretty convincing from the point of view of modern physics and astronomy and cosmology that we can account for the geocentrism because the center of mass just happens to be centered on the earth do you have any opinion about that or does the Bible talk about that sure a couple things happen you know Galactus centrism geocentrism your guest brought up the Flat Earth and it was a non sequitur for him to say well if you believe in creation then the logical inclusion is a flat earth and that's a non-sequitur because never did the Catholic Church teach the earth was flat never the Church Fathers didn't teach the earth was flat never did any Protestant university or denomination and the flat earth movement is a phenomenon today in France 10% of the public think the earth is flat it might be flat and so Flat Earth ISM for one thing it's not a hypothesis it's a diagnostic of a paranoia like everyone lying to me about everything well therefore I think even the earth is flat and so we went to New Zealand to protest Bill Clinton we were there for a week and so when we're down there we've made a point to look at the moon you know we live in the northern hemisphere there way down south and we we see the man in the moon is two eyes and his mouth we just called them in on the moon right well down in the southern hemisphere the man in the moon is upside down of course because they're at the bottom of the globe and the stars rotate in the sky in the opposite direction these are two pretty good pieces of evidence for something that was known for millennia that the earth is a sphere so then there's the thought well perhaps the universe revolves around the earth every 24 hours I don't know if you were getting to that question that would mean that Neptune is moving far faster than the speed of light in order to orbit us once every 24 hours and that the furthest galaxies are moving 30 trillion times faster than the speed of light so the reason they start in that direction is because they say the Bible says that the earth shall not be moved and the Bible's God's Word and we trust God above everything but the same Hebrew root word for the earth shall not be moved says that you shall not be moved and says the King shall not be moved so obviously it doesn't mean what they think it means certainly there are earthquakes and the earthquakes move the earth from one end to the other so the earth can be moved and of course with heliocentrism we have a much better now understanding of cosmology and the charity has never been against that ever of course the Church starting with play-doh and people like to say it started with Aristotle but it was Plato who had his creation myth with the earth in the center and so geocentrism as far as yeah that was held by the church and it took people who believed in the Bible and in God like Copernicus Johann Kepler and Isaac Newton who wrote more about theology than he did about math and physics it took those creationists to help the world come out of the days that we were put in by the ancient Greeks I have a niece that I've interviewed once and in that interview she said proudly and openly and publicly that there is no morality there's only the illusion of morality because everything is hard to determined by natural cause and effect she's studying at university and I've invited her back to talk to me since I'm now a young earth creationist I want to get her opinion about evolution and her field of study is actually biology you know along with all the genetic stuff so I'm wondering what can I say to this young atheist who believes fully in evolution what approach can I take because I can't talk about Jesus I can't talk about Noah I can't talk about Moses and I don't know the science so what productive line of reasoning can I take with this young girl well there might be quite often it's good to focus on something very specific and you know Darwin wrote about vision in the eye and our ability to see and he said even though he believed it evolved by a non-directed process he said I admit it seems absurd in the highest degree to think that the eye could evolve so he said I believe it but I admit it seems absurd and what we've known since it's way more absurd now than then and if you think about the atheist who says eyesight vision systems evolved dozens of different times because they find it in dozens of different organisms and families that they think did not have a common ancestor so they need something as difficult as Eva's vision eyesight to evolve thousands of times and when you think about how your brain sees right we have a little meme it's our evolution vision challenge and we show a TV screen filled with static and we say this is what a brain sees and then the other TV screen has a beautiful flower in it it says this is what a brain does not see so your rods and cones they register these incoming photons and a signal gets encoded and it's encoded in this chemical electrical signal that goes through your optic nerve to your optic cortex where this encoded signal is decoded and what the evolutionist likes to imagine is that some little insect you know is somehow gets a little pimple on part of its body and it becomes light-sensitive and eventually has enough kids eventually it could see you know but our vision system our eyes they're encoding data transmitting it and it's being decoded and if you look at what's coming out of the other end of your optic nerve it would look like static on your TV if you did an analogy of water in your kitchen faucet turn on your kitchen faucet full-force put your hand under it and make believe each molecule of water was carrying some visual information and now you have to figure out how to interpret that visual information it is complexed to the most extreme degree and what the evolutionist does is give a kindergarten version of what's happening and even at that to them it's absurd in the highest degree yeah there are millions of people who believe in evolution and it seems like all of the evidence is on their side but I guess if you dig if you have the time to dig in you'll find absurd oversimplifications everywhere right but your average person that takes evolution for granted he's not interested in doing that because he just takes it for granted that it's all true right yes you know we have photoreceptor cells in them they have these proteins called opsin when a single photon strikes opsin it releases a chemical signal a single photon you can't get better than that and so I debated a professor of Ophthalmology from Cal State Northridge and he said well before we debate you need to read my colleagues textbook just out evolutions witness how eyes evolved okay so I get the book read the book and I wrote a prediction in the book when it was delivered by FedEx this thing cost me over a hundred bucks and I wrote the prediction I got people to sign as my witnesses at this book is gonna have virtually nothing in it about how eyes evolved it's only gonna be an Anatomy book about the different kinds of eyes and different organs and that's it there should be a chapter on how opsin evolved they hardly mention it in the whole book are you familiar with Aaron rah oh I've debated him in writing and on the radio okay I watched a couple of videos about the classification of life and in the first video it's sort of an introduction he talks about how life comes from non-life and he says let me find the quote for you here he says something really funny yeah so here it is here he says that four minutes fourteen of this video which is called systematic classification of life episode one the root of the tree he says at four minutes and 14 seconds so how did life arise from inorganic matter it didn't because viruses in all possible previous stages to life are based on complex carbon chains that were already what scientists would identify as organic chemicals so that's his answer he's saying how did life come from inorganic matter it didn't because it came from organic chemicals it's a completely false distinction it says in wikipedia says and it says for many centuries this is from Wikipedia now in organic compounds it says for many centuries Western physicians and chemists believed in vitalism this was the widespread conception that substances found in organic nature are created from the chemical elements by the action of a vital force a life force that only living organisms possess vitalism taught that these quote-unquote organic compounds were fundamentally different from that quote-unquote inorganic pounds that could be obtained from the elements by chemical manipulations so this is a false distinction it's an outmoded superstition of organic chemistry right so we use organic in two different ways one we talk about organisms biological living organisms and then we talk about organic chemistry and I think he was fooling himself I don't know if he smokes pot or what but confuses himself at every turn David I asked the question of NASA's leading astrobiologists this past year major science conference in Germany her name is dr. Wojtek and mary Wojtek and there's his panel five incredible scientists it's the host is one of the editors of the journal science and so he read my question from a from Bob a an independent science reporter and I asked her this I said Mary isn't it true that water is not an asset for life to arise from matter in fact water is the enemy of prebiotic molecules because water is the universal solvent in outside of a living organism water dissolves life's building blocks and then I was glad that the the host of this panel discussion he listed all the things that water dissolves and David it's unbelievable water is relentless it dissolves amino acids they're the things that weren't proteins it involves sugars including you know RNA in DNA monosaccharides disaccharides it dissolves peptides of all kinds it dissolves non peptide ribosome enzymes countless kinds of polymers all kinds of carbohydrates so everything you need to start life water will destroy virtually all of it so it's a bait and switch when NASA says well we think there's life you know upon on a moon of Jupiter or Saturn we think there's life up there because we found water up there well Mary Wojtek acknowledged that water is a challenge and for them to get any kind of chemical reaction to continue they have to dehydrate the specimen and the other scientist and that the host of this thing is like well you're saying that water is a problem and she's like well yeah we got a dehydrate and they all thought and this is after decades right they all thought that if you had water you get life water is the problem but what's interesting is it's not only water everything you need for life would destroy life from arising like oxygen oxygen destroys prebiotic molecules sunlight destroys them ions we need Eila ions you know even in bacteria ions destroy these these prebiotic molecules time destroys these molecules that might happen to form one out of a hundred quadrillion billion forms and then time and water and sunlight and oxygen ions they'll all destroy it hmm you know I I studied physics at University and a lot of people got very excited about the philosophical speculation that goes a hand-in-hand with science and especially new exciting sciences so the new science of course is quantum physics and relativity and these sorts of things and so there's that Copenhagen interpretation which people go crazy about they love it I've always rejected it even when I was in atheist I knew it was absurd it was ridiculous but it's the same thing with the other sciences people get very excited buying these popularized books about so-called science which are really just sloppy philosophy and sloppy speculation and so the whole idea came to mind for me about technology what we can't argue with is people today doing stuff with their scientific knowledge for example the technology we're using right now like I said the technology relies on advanced new physics like quantum physics we can get practical results out of the stuff we've learned about the quantum realm is it the same with evolution is there one example of a technology that we could not have access to if we rejected the wild chronologies of evolution that's a brilliant question and your audience should know that you you did not set me up with that question and and you didn't know that I listened to your podcast where you brought that up and your guest did a bait-and-switch you said are there any technologies that need Darwinism to be true and I would extend that to the Big Bang and of course the answer is no we could change our views on origins and nobody's cell phone is gonna stop working no MRI machine satellites not going to fall out of the sky when the next discovery that dismantles the Big Bang and they come every few months there's another one of those so our technologies when you look at the fathers of the physical sciences they mostly before and after Darwin they were mostly creationist you know people like Kepler Galileo Newton Mendel bacon Pascal Dalton Faraday joule-kelvin Lister go on and on Wright brothers Carver all the technologies that came from their discoveries these are things like weather x-rays are the the inventor of the MRI I had him on the show repeatedly I Raymond damadian extraordinary young earth creationist none of these technologies require the Big Bang or Darwinism or atheism to work and most of them are the fruit of the disciplines that were pioneered by biblical creationists so he he did a bait-and-switch he said you said name me one technology that requires your belief in evolution and he said oh the entire field of biology you remember that he's talking about a belief system and many many biologists believe that God was involved and medical science is applied biology and the majority of medical doctors believed that God had to be involved in the origin of life one of the accusations I get since I came out of the closet as a young earth creationist one comment which was I guess supposed to be biting was that Oh David you've now lost all credibility well I mean you're an atheist I'm a Catholic what credibility did I have with you you know I'm not a scientist I don't have any credibility I don't have any credentials I don't have any reputation I don't have any laboratory I don't have any students I don't have any books I don't have anything I'm just a schmuck who happens to submit to God Almighty I don't have any credibility and I don't want credibility I want to point to God so I want to talk about the psychology of the peer pressure where I was supposed to feel somehow that I would get back in line and some people would say to me well David if I could prove this to you would you get back in line would you come back would you come back to evolution when you come back would you come back why are they motivated to get me back in line and why do they think I care about my reputation what's going on psychologically that's incredible that you can utter that sentence that really is something David why should I care about my reputation the Bible says that we're fools for Christ's sake and they mocked and hated him and if they hated him they will hate us those who love him and and the lies the long war against God uses propaganda so when he said to you that all of biology is based on evolution I had a paper published in a peer-reviewed journal analyzing dobzhansky as the scientist who first said that nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution and in his paper he made three or four predictions and over the next 40 years all of them were falsified it's really unbelievable how completely wrong he was but the National Academy of Sciences our most prestigious scientific body in America dr. Phillips Kell he's now recently passed away he was a member of the National Academy he said and this is on our page about the fathers of the sciences being so many being creationists he said that he asked more than 70 eminent researchers over a period of years if they would have done their work differently if they thought Darwin's theory was wrong and he said the response from everyone was the same no he said he analyzed a hundred Nobel Prizes in biology over the last century a hundred prizes he said he couldn't find one that depended in any way upon Darwinian concepts not one paper they published in the journal Nature and they say an evolution did this and if you leave out those words it doesn't change the paper at all the discovery is just as amazing so there's words add nothing I just interviewed Michael Behe he's one of the leading ID intelligent design authors he wrote Darwin's black box and now Darwin devolves and he points out that the successes that they claim are when proteins break down when their mutations and things break down you end up with sickle-cell disease in Africa but now you can't catch malaria because malaria can't get a foothold if you have sickle cell disease that's like the best exhibit that the evolutionists have they say look evolution works no that's examples of things breaking down and yes things do break down but only God built them up what do you think of those two guys can't hold on a Ken Ham I think Kent Hovind I think he loves God and I think he's reached a lot of people but sometimes he could be a caricature of himself I think though his son Eric Hovind is amazing and he you know his father spent a lot of time in jail in his his son Eric Hovind is full time young earth creationist but on the order of Ken hams type of work okay are there other big names I haven't mentioned - you have Ames huge I think the greatest scientists alive today's Isaac Newton is a man named dr. Warren it was truly brilliant many predictions about astronomy and geology and just astounding predictions that have come true and we have piggybacked off his work for many years now and we real science radio that's what we call our Friday show we've made many predictions and we keep track of them we document them and many have been confirmed including our dinosaur soft-tissue predictions and so dr. Wolk Brown out of Australia out of New Zealand Jonathan Sarfati who's now living in the u.s. yeah there are incredible names these guys are you know who's Emma MIT PhD who's published in the journal Nature there are thousands of scientists who reject our win and there are also thousands who not only reject Darwin but who are young earth creationists yeah one of the proofs that I think I can use without having a lot of knowledge about science of biology cosmology and all these sorts of things I think I can have recourse to proof just from the bare fact of abortion if evolution is true then abortion is okay abortion is not okay therefore evolution is false can you talk about that proof I I think that's absolutely valid reasoning if we're just animals abortion is fine animals eat one another to eat their young alive so when people defend the most disgusting human behavior and they say animals do it well then I say well you know that's probably your best argument that that you act like a pig or a dog but that's not it's it's not a valid argument but it's probably the best one you'll ever come up with that you're like a pig or you're like a dog but abortion is wrong because it's a baby and it's always wrong to intentionally kill a baby and that's because children are made in God's image and God said do not kill the innocent so that so abortion is wrong but you're exactly right David we have a video called get out of the matrix we used to go to college campuses and we could let the camera roll from when we get there and I asked students in the cafeteria was it absolutely wrong for the Germans to slaughter millions of men women and children and they'll think for a minute and they'll say Millions absolutely wrong they'll say no it wasn't wrong why not because there's no such thing because if it feels good do it there's no right and wrong there's only preference and that is the conclusion to an atheist worldview really scary so I guess we should touch on something a little bit more controversial because they Protestant listener recommended I talk to you I think he was expecting fireworks so can you just sort of tell me why you're not Catholic and what objections you have to Catholicism place the reasons I gave you earlier when I realized that the church had really rejected Genesis and Exodus so that even the Ten Commandments have no historical foundation in the genealogy of Christ and the teachings of Christ his genealogy has no historical foundation and his teachings are inaccurate and so we're supposed to take his historical teachings as though they were parables oh that is a parable how do we know there's any real need to pay for the sin of the world if it's all a parable where does the truth start so I felt like I was pushed out of the Catholic Church but I'm now glad that I was because I think that while the Catholic Church is right that there is authority in the church itself the Catholic Church is right on that but that doesn't mean that you won't be tempted to overemphasize the church in under emphasized God's Word and so I think that's what happened God's Word is under effort emphasized the authority of the church is over emphasized and we end up with a time where there's crisis all over the world in the u.s. one out of three Catholics have said to some level they're ashamed to be Catholic because of the crisis in fact Benedict just came out with you may have read his paper he confirmed what we've been saying on the air for 28 years that the crisis in the Catholic Church I've recent interview with a guy who was molested by a Denver Catholic priest here and that priest molested many kids and a couple committed suicide one left a handwritten no unbelievable horrific and the church has never never apologized never come clean to the families that's here in Denver but Benedict wrote that the seeds of the worldwide crisis was when the seminaries accepted homosexuality as the norm and they even had homosexual clubs in seminaries and he that happened in the 1960s and David I've been saying that on my show for years that when the seminaries went homosexual in the 60s what happened later the history was just bearing the fruit of that because God made us male and female on that note what do you think about Catholics is it possible to be a Christian and a Catholic yeah to Catholics over the decades have preached at our church ambassador alan keyes it was ambassador under Ronald Reagan one of the heroes in the battle to end abortion and he has preached at Denver Bible Church the other Jason Jones who's another hero in the fight to end the killing of innocent children but I think that Jesus said many will say Lord Lord and I'll say I never knew you I think there are Protestant denominations that are virtually lost and will never come back and I think that's also true of Catholics with among Protestants if there's heresy there tends to be a split a division and yet another denomination is born the Catholic Church has just continually absorbed really all that blasphemy and I spent a couple years on the campus of notre dame 'no you know homosexuality and pro-abortion and that's pretty much the culture of Notre Dame so the Catholics have just continued to absorb all the filth and the wickedness and the hatred against God and it's like a bloated tumor filled with pus all right write it that way but the Protestants they have an opposite problem of constant dividing so both approaches are problematic but what we look out and we see in the world around us the Catholic Church is awash in immorality wickedness in the Protestant Church much of it is post Christian I was raised in a church called the United Church of Canada if you've heard of it it's the biggest denomination in Canada have you heard about it no I'm so sorry I haven't that's terrible you can look into it it's very very interests because now they have atheist ministers that are allowed to preach as United Church of Canada ministers so I mean just very very briefly I want you to talk about the early church fathers belief in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist and then talk about Mary the mother of God you just talked about those two sticking points please from your perspective well I would never say I know that some of the councils did I would never say Mary Mother of God because they could confuse people who may think that she's actually not only the human mother of Jesus Christ who's fully God and fully man but they might think that she's the mother of God like God Father and there are millions of people who get confused about who to worship and Allah tree is if you worship anyone other than God or anything so I would call Mary the mother of Jesus a mother of the Incarnate son of God God the Son but um you know the Bible honors her Jesus honor sir and I'm sure she'll be honored throughout all of eternity future but it doesn't mean that we can't do harm in the guise of honoring her and as far as the Eucharist you might know more than I do when I was a first a Christian in 1973 I read I now even forget some of the names of the collections of the writings of the early fathers but I read a lot of that early on in the 70s and I forget most of it now what would it take to convince you that Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church and that he instituted all seven sacraments and that there's no salvation outside of the Catholic Church what would it take to convince you well the Catholic Church pretty much teaches anybody could be saved so that last one that you'd have to first convince the Catholic Church of that well you anyone can be saved but to be saved you have to get into the ark the ark of noah how I mean the Catholic Church said in a thousand ways the priest we had Bible studies with said you don't have to be a Catholic you don't have to believe in Jesus to be saved so he said then why do we need to keep going to the Catholic Church on himself in quite a dilemma yeah that was a stupid thing to say so it mostly Protestants that have been faithful to Jesus teaching that I am the way the truth and the life no man comes to the Father but by me the Catholic Church has done lot to try to bring Jews to the Lord or Muslims to the Lord I don't know what the Catholic Church is done whereas my little church Denver Bible Church we've brought you know homosexuals to the Lord and atheists and we've we've gone to Israel to to witness the minister to Jews and Muslims I don't see the Catholic Church is really having any kind of an event evangelical outreach the Jews at all they've either written them off and don't care if they go to hell I don't think that's the reason I think the reason is they think they don't need Jesus they're just fine just be true to their faith he and those are both bad options yeah yeah and the only good option is to love your neighbor be he Jew or Muslim Buddhist love them enough to share the truth of Jesus Christ so what kind of reputation do you have are you seen as a wacko extremist nutjob or are you seen as nice a nice guy moderate you know a fair-minded pillar of the community what's your reputation I'm the black sheep of the Denver pastoral community our church goes to the abortion mill every day they're open since the 90s and we have confirmed saves of over a thousand babies whose moms had scheduled abortions and we bring the signs we call out to the moms I typically say something like you could be loved with your baby you don't have to kill your baby for someone to love you there's help for you please let us talk to you and we don't count it as a save unless the mom talks to us she had an abortion scheduled and she's changed her mind and many times David many times they'll come back like on a birthday or an anniversary to bring the baby in and so that her little Church Denver Bible Church every Planned Parenthood has been open since the 90s we've been there Wow unbelievable at the end of my episodes I do ask my guests to give the closing thought so just to leave the show on a positive note what could you say to anyone that's out there listening now Jesus when he came he didn't lead an army he didn't write a book but we date our transactions billions of instances every single day up that are dated and every single one is a testimony to Jesus Christ every single one you know we have 7 days in a week because God created in six days and rested on the seventh and although there are differences in cultures and different centuries overwhelmingly the wheels of commerce you know they cease turning on Sundays and it's not on the Sabbath anymore Saturday but it's Sunday for one and only one reason every week because we remember that Jesus Christ rose from the dead on the first day of the week and because he rose we can live forever if we trust in Him