Ott's Fundamentals (Ep.07) - 1.2.19 to 2.1.6

Author Streamed Sunday October 17th, 2021

There are 18 episodes in the Live:Fundamentals series.

Streamed September 23rd, 2021

Ott's Fundamentals (Ep.02) - 1.1.1 to 1.1.7

Streamed September 19th, 2021

Ott's Fundamentals (Ep.01) - Introduction

From:Book 1, Part 2, Item 19to:Book 2, Part 1, Item 6of:Fundamentals of Catholic Dogmaby:Dr. Ludwig Ott


Ott's Fundamentals (Ep.07) - 1.2.19 to 2.1.6

Author Streamed September 12th, 2021

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okay i'm back i'm going to continue where i left off last time so i'll be starting on 19 the trinitarian perichoresis or circum in session so section 19 the trinitarian perichoresis or circum by the trinitarian perichoresis he's understood the penetration and indwelling of the three divine persons reciprocally so perichoresis rendered in greek is peri jorisis and and nippar exis and nippaxis in latin it's rendered sir come in sessio and later circum in sessio what's the difference sir come in session circum incessio i don't see the in any case uh here we have a dogma the three divine persons are in one another this is a defeated dogma the three divine persons are in the council of florence in the decretum project jacobis 1441 declared with saint because of this unity the father is holy in the son and holy in the holy ghost the son is holy and the father and holy in the holy ghost the holy ghost is holy in the father and holy in the son christ testifies that the father is in him and that he is in the father john 10 30 says quote i and the father are one end quote and then in 10 quote believe the works that you may know and believe that the father is in me and i in the father end quote compare john 14 9 and following and 17 21 the indwelling of the holy ghost and the father and in the son is indicated in the expression perichorine is used for the first time by saint gregory of nazianzus to characterize the relation of the two christological perichrisis saint john damascene used it as a technical term for the co-inheritance of the two natures in christ as well as for the circumcession of the three divine persons through the translation of the works of saint john damascene by burgundia of pisa about 1150 a.d the expression in the latin rendering circumcisio became current in the theology of the occident circle circumcision later became circum in sure what what is the difference there sir come in session sir come in session okay i see now it's spelled with a c and then not too bright on catching those so circum in sessio sessio spelled with a c later became circum in sessio where cecio is spelled with an s the word circum in sessio expresses with a c expresses more the idea of the active penetration the latter circumcision spelled with an s more the idea of the passive co-inherit the former corresponds more to the greek the latter more to the latin way of so we have active penetration or passive in the greek conception of the trinity the perichoresis plays a greater role than does than it does in the latin the greeks commence with the idea of the father and fence proceed to the sun by the outpouring of the divine life by the father to the son and thence through the sun to the holy ghost through the emphasis on the mutual penetration of the three persons it emphasizes strongly the unity of the divine essence the latin way of thinking proceeds from the unity of the divine essence and thence develops the concept of the internal divine processions into the trinity of the persons thus the latin notion thus in the latin notion the idea of the unity of the essence stands in the foreground the fundamental basis of the trinitarian perichoresis is the one essence of the three persons you can see the reference for the moving on now section 20 the unity of the divine operation add extra and here we have a dogma all the ad extra activities of god are common to the three persons that they feed a dogma all the ad extra activities of god are common to the three persons the fourth ladder in council in 1215 teaches in the chapter fermitar that the three divine persons are the sole principle of all things the council of florence declares in the decretum project jacobides 1441 patter at filios at spiritus sanctus non trio principa principia creature said unum i know how to pronounce tri-theism is opposed to the teaching of the church because it denies not only the unity of the divine being but also the unity of the divine operations according to a gunther who died in 1863 the realization of the divine world idea is exclusively the work of the second person and the conversion of the creation to god is exclusively the work of the third christ testifies to the unity of his working with the father and bases it on the unity of nature john 5 19 says quote what things soever the father doth these the son also doth in like manner end quote john 14 10 says quote but the father who abideth in me he doth the same works end quote holy writ asserts the unity of the operations of the divine persons also by ascribing the same works also by ascribing the same works for example the realization of the incarnation the bestowal of the supernatural gifts of grace the forgiveness of sins so holy asserts the unity of the operations of the divine persons also by ascri ascribing the same work here we have a whole bunch of biblical reference references you can look those the father's base the unity of operation on the unity of the divine nature which is the principium of the divine activity saint augustine in his work on the holy trinity says quote as the father and the son and the holy ghost are inseparable so they work inseparably end quote and in his other work he says quote the works of the trinity are inseparable section 21 the appropriations by appropriation is understood a mode of predication in which the properties and activities of god which are common to the three persons are attributed to an individual person the purpose of the the person excuse me the purpose of the appropriations is to make manifest the differences in the divine in order that this purpose be achieved only those common attributes and activities are appropriated to an individual divine person which exhibit a certain relationship to the proper proprietary of the person concerned holy writ ascribes the affecting of the incarnation to the father see hebrews 10 5 and to the holy ghost see luke 1 35 and matthew 1 20 and allocates the bestowing of the gifts of grace to the third person see one first corinthians 12 4 and following although the operation of god at extra the appropriations in holy scripture and in the fathers and those made by the theologians can following sheban a the appropriation of the substantive substantive names of god theos curios references are given there theos equals god the father kyrios equals god the son be the appropriation of the absolute attributes of god power wisdom goodness compare saint augustine saint hillary references given there eternity is in the father beauty is in the image or the word and use happiness as in and use happiness is in the gift that by saint hillary c the appropriation of the works of god causa ephesians causa examplares causa finales following romans 11 36. resolution execution completion d the appropriation of the cult of adoration and sacrifice the father as recipient the son and the and the reference is given to the summa again if you look that up section 22 the divine missions the concept of mission missio ad extra in latin according to the teachings of saint thomas comprises two elements a a relation between the one cent and the sender as terminus a quo the one sent stands in a relation of dependence to the sender in the divine persons on account of their identity of essence it can be a dependence according to origin only be a relation between the one cent and the object of the mission the object of the mission is the presence of the one sent at a definite place in the sending of a divine person in view of the substantial of omnipresence of god in the created world there is question only of a new kind of presence thus the concept of sending implies not only the eternal procession but also a new kind of presence in the created world the temporal missions therefore reflect the notions of the divine persons the father sends only but is not sent the son is sent and sends the holy ghost is sent only and here we have another dogma the father sends the son the father and the son send the holy ghost this is ascent certa dogma the father sends the son the father and the son send the holy ghost the 11th council of toledo in 675 declares we believe that the holy ghost is sent from both the father and the son as the holy writ testifies to a the mission of the son by the father compare john 3 17 5 23 6 58 658 1718 and galatians 4 4 which says quote god sent his son end quote be the mission of the holy ghost by the father compare john 14 16 to 26 uh there's that 16 and 26 galatians 4 6 which says quote god sent the spirit of his son into your hearts crying abba father and quote see the mission of the holy ghost by the sun compare john 15 26 and 16 7 and luke 24 49 which says quote and i send the promise of the father upon you and quote holy writ does not speak of the father as being sent but only of his coming and indwelling john 14 23 says quote if anyone loves me he will keep my word and my father will love him and we will come to him and make our abode with him end quote the missions are divided into visible and invisible according to whether the new presence of the person is sent sensibly perceptible or not the incarnation of the word is a visible mission mesio substantialis as is also the mission of the holy ghost under the visible symbol of the dove or tongues of the invisible sending follows on the bestowal of sanctifying grace and has its and has as its object the indwelling of god in the soul of the just in holy writ the indwelling is generally ascribed to the holy ghost see first corinthians 3 16 and 6 19 and romans 5 5 and 8 11 but with the holy ghost the father and the son also come to dwell in the souls moving on now the relation of the trinity to reason section 23 the mysterious character of the dogma of the trinity one the dogma of the trinity is above human reason the trinity of god can only be known this is a cent b day proxima grade of certainty on this dogma the trinity of god can only be known the absolutely mysterious character of the dogma of the trinity is indeed not defined but it is contained in the doctrine of the vatican council that among the truths of faith quote there are mysteries concealed in god which can be known on the basis of divine revelation only unquote christianity has always regarded the dogma of the trinity as the most fundamental and most profound mystery of faith the sublimity of the dogma of the trinity over natural rational knowledge is indicated in matthew 11 27 which says quote none knoweth the father but the son and he to whom it shall please the son to reveal him end quote compare john 1 18 and first corinthians 2 11. the fathers often emphasize the mysterious character of the dogma of the trinity and the necessity of faith saint john damascene says quote it is known and adored in faith that is the trinity not by investigating examining and proving you have to believe that god is in the three that god is in three persons how sublime is this above all questions for god it is inconceivable compare saint ambrose and saint augustine and saint gregory of nisa references given there adduced by saint anselm of canterbury and richard of saint victor are in fact only grounds of congruity which presuppose the revelation of the trinity and belief in it the attempt of anton gunter under the influence of hegel to derive the trinity of god on a purely rational grounds from the divine self-consciousness natural reason can know god from the created things only as their origin but the perfections of god which reveal themselves in creative things for example power wisdom goodness are common to the three divine persons consequently natural reason can know god only in his unity of nature two capacity of reason the vatican council says of the mysteries of faith that even quote after the promulgation of the revelation and its acceptance of faith they remain covered by the veil of faith and hidden in a certain obscurity end quote that in 1796 this applies par excellence to the dogma of the trinity as the basic dogma of christian belief nevertheless reason enlightened enlightened by faith can correctly apprehend apprehend there's that word that i like i'll start again nevertheless reason enlightened by faith can correctly apprehend and represent the true sense of the dogma from the explanations of the church and from the testimonies of revelation further it can through analogs derived from created things throw a light on the mystery and bring it nearer to the understanding for example in the comparison of the internal divine processions with human also the objections brought against the dogma can be refuted by reason the dogma of the trinity is in fact beyond reason supra rattionem but not contrary to objections the rationalist argument that according to the dogma of the trinity three is equal to one and one is equal to three is refuted by pointing out that that the divine persons are not in the same respect three and one but in one respect three namely according to persons and in another respect one namely according to essence the principle adduced against the dogma of the trinity two things which are equal to a third are equal among themselves is valid only when the two things are in every respect equal to a third thing in every respect every respect re e ratione so i guess really and rationally equal to the third thing the divine persons and the divine essence are indeed really identical but virtually ratione different thus the three persons are indeed identical in essence but different from one another in their relation to one another you can see the summa for that human reason cannot fathom the mystery of the blessed trinity even after the so i guess this looks like it's a dogma it's a scent feed a proxima dogma human reason cannot fathom the mystery of the blessed trinity even after the dogma has been revealed by god not sure that why that wasn't putting it there you go section one the divine act of creation chapter one the beginning or the creation of the world section one the reality of the divine creation of the world one the dogma and the heretical counter propositions and here we have a dogma all that exists outside god was in its whole substance produced out of nothing by god and it's a defeated dogma all that exists outside god was in its whole substance produced out of nothing by god the vatican council declared against the ancient pagan and gnostic manichaean dualism as well as against modern si cuis non confiter mundum rescue omnes quay in eo compare the symbols of faith and the in philosophical and theological parlance by creation is understood the productio re ex nihilo that is to say non ex aliquo that is before the act of creation neither thing as such nor any material substratum from which it was produced existed st thomas defines creation as alikuyus from creation in the proper and strict sense creatio prima is to be distinguished the so-called creatio secunda by which is understood the modeling of formless material so we have creative prima and creative secunda both done by god god alone two proof from scripture and tradition a the creation of the world out of nothing may be proved indirectly by the fact that the name yahweh and with it necessary self-existence or said is attributed to god alone while all other things in comparison with god are called nothing from this it from this follows a conclusion that everything outside god compare isaiah 42 8 and 40 17. the divine name adonai rendered in greek kyrios represents god as the lord and proprietor of heaven and earth by virtue unlimited rights attributed to a lord and proprietor signify that the property has its compare psalm 88 12 and esther 13 10 and the creation of the world out of nothing according to the general jewish and christian conviction is directly expressed in genesis 1 1 which says quote in the beginning god it must be noted that in this basic text no sub stratum of creation is named substratum of creation is rendered in latin as materia x qua in the beginning unquote without a more detailed definition means the absolute beginning that is that point in time before which there was nothing side by side with god and in which the things external to god began to is the whole universe that is all extra the verb bara which means create can indeed also mean produce in the wider sense but it is used almost exclusively of the divine activity apart from genesis 1 27 it is never associated with the presence of a material out of which god produces something according to the usage of the biblical narrative in genesis 1 1 it expresses creation out of nothing only compare psalm 1 23 8 1 45 6 and 32 9. the belief of the jewish people concerning the creation which is found in genesis 1 1 is a test attested to also in 2nd maccabees 728 in which the maccabean mother quote full of wisdom verse 21 edgar is her youngest son to accept martyrdom she says quote i beseech thee my son to look upon the heavens look upon the heavens and earth and see all that is in them and consider that god made them out and rendered in greek out of nothing is rendered in greek compare wisdom 114 which says quote for he created all things that they might be end quote and romans 4 17 which says quote who calleth those things that are not as those that are end quote wisdom 11 18 says quote for thy almighty hand which made the world of matter without form is unquote is according to the context to be understood as referring to the creation creatio secunda as is also hebrews 11 3 which says quote by faith we understand that the world was framed by the word of god that from invisible things the visible things would be made end quote compare genesis 1 2 according to g i'm not sure what that means compare genesis 1 2 which says quote and the earth was invisible so in that when they talk about the world of matter so we think of the word amorphous shapeless amorphous x means from a morph morph means shape amorph means and when uh genesis 1 2 talks about the earth being invisible be the fathers regard the creation of the world out of nothing as a basic truth of christian belief and defend it against the false dualism of pagan philosophy and gnostic manichaean error about the middle of the second century pastor herme writes quote for the very first thing believe that god is the only god who has created and who prepared everything and who has made everything out of compare theophilus of antioch saint irenaeus tertullian and saint augustine the references are given if you want to look those up three creation and reason the creation of the world from nothing is not only a basic truth of christian revelation but also a truth of reason which is inherent in the cosmological proofs of god except for the teleological proof and especially in the contingency proof but since philosophy including that of aristotle apart from christianity never achieved a pure concept of creation the revelation of this truth was morally necessary references are given to the suma if you section two the divine world idea and here we have a dogma the world is the work of the divine wisdom this is a cent serta grade of certainty the world is the work of the divine wisdom in opposition to christian doctrine materialists propound the quote accident theory unquote according to which the present world has developed purely mechanically out of a material eternally existing nonsense holy writ teaches that god has made all in wisdom psalm 103 24 says quote thou hast made all things in wisdom and quote wisdom stood at his side as a counselor at the creation of the world see proverbs 8 27 and following compare proverbs 3 19 and following genesis 1 26 thus created the world thus the created world is the realization of divine ideas since the divine ideas are thoughts of god they are eternal and unchangeable because identical with the divine wisdom and with the divine essence from the point of view of their realization in creation they are temporarily they are temporal and mutable because they have for their object merely finite replicas of divine perfections note well on account of the absolute simplicity of his of his divine essence there is in god one single idea insofar as this one idea is reflected in many extra divine objects one speaks of a multiplicity of divine ideas saint augustine adapted plato's doctrine of ideas to christian doctrine by identifying the eternal idea with interesting section three motive and purpose of the god was moved by his goodness to create the world this is a day fide dogma good god was moved by his goodness to create the world the motive which moved god to creation is as the provincial synod of cologne declared in 1860 the love of his this moved him to reflect his perfections in other beings by finite images the vatican council declared sorry from allah as usual according to the testimony of holy writ the motive of the divine act of creation lies in god himself quote the lord hath made all things for himself end quote proverbs 16 4 the fathers testified that god did not create the world because he needed it or that he needed to but in order to quote pour out his benefits unquote you can see saint irenaeus against all heresies for that origen teaches quote in the beginning when god created what he wanted to create i.e rational creatures he had no other cause for it but himself i.e his goodness end quote augustine says quote we are we are because god is sorry quote we are because he is good end quote compare saint hillary saint augustine saint john damascene they have references there if you want to look those up god's necessary self-existence or a sadie and the infinite bliss which it connotes excludes any extra divine motive for the divine act of creation saint thomas teaches quote god does not act for his own prophet two purpose and here we have a dogma the world was created for the glorification of god this is a de fide dogma the world was created for the the a the objective purpose of creation that is the purpose intrinsic in the work of creation is primarily the revelation of the divine perfections and the glorification of god which flow from this the vatican council thus defined the glorification of god which is made by creatures is called external glory gloria externa a distinction is made between objective glory gloria objectiva and formal glory gloria formalis the former objective glory is given to god by all creatures without exception by their mere existence insofar as they mirror compare psalm 18 2 which says quote the heavens daniel 3 52 unfollowing and psalm 148 you can see those the latter is rendered to him with knowledge and with will by rational objective glory and formal glory so objective glory is given by all creatures just by the fact that they exist and is rendered to him with knowledge and with will by rational creatures so atheists render objective glory and theists monotheists render formal glory to god as well as objective glory according to the teacher of holy scripture excuse me according to the teaching of holy scripture god is the alpha and omega the beginning and the final purpose of apocalypse 1 8 or revelation 1 8 says quote i am the alpha and the omega that is the beginning and the end saith the lord saith the lord god end quote compare romans 11 36 which says quote for him for of excuse me for of him and by him and in and in him are all things to him be glory forever end quote hebrews 2 10 says quote for whom are all things and by whom are all things end quote compare proverbs 16 4. according to tullian god produced the world out of nothing quote as an adornment as an end sorry as an endor quote as an as a tongue twister as an adornment of his glory end quote see apocalypse 17. the objection raised by descartes hermes and gunter that it would be a reprehensible egoism if god had intended his own glory to be the ultimate purpose of the creation is justified because the perfection and the beatitude of god cannot be increased by creatures and because the activity of god being of the highest goodness must necessarily be coordinated with the so i think i said justify when i should have said unjustified the objection raised by descartes hermes and gunter is unjustified because the perfection and the beatitude of god cannot be increased by creatures and because the activity of god being a highest goodness must necessarily be coordinated with high school b the secondary purpose of the creation of the world is the bestowal of good on creatures especially creatures endowed with reason the vatican council teaches that god created the world quote for the revelation of his perfection end quote that's the primary purpose and quote through the good things which he communicates to creatures end quote writ stresses that the created world should serve mankind but does not regard the happiness of mankind as an end in itself but as an end subordinated to the glorification of god compare genesis 1 28 and following psalm 8 6 and following apocalypse 4 11. the two aims of creation are inseparably connected with each other for the glory given to god by creatures who know and love him constitutes at the same time as a reputation of the objection that the external glory of god as something finite could not be the ultimate purpose of the creation it is necessary to distinguish between the fenis qui and the finis quo of the creation finis qui objective purpose is that which is aimed at finis quo formal purpose is that through which the thing aimed at is achieved the finnish queen of the work of creation is the intrinsic goodness of god and thus god himself the finis quo is the participation of creatures in the goodness of god which contributes at the same time to the bliss of rational creatures the definition of the vatican according to which the world was created for the glory of god has the finis quo in mind for the participation of creatures in the goodness of god coincides with the external glory of god the perfections of the creatures are images of the perfections of the creator gloria objectiva the consideration and acknowledgement of excuse me the consideration of the perfections of creatures leads rational creatures to the perception and acknowledgement of the while the finis quo is finite the finis qui is infinite this is what holy writ means when it names god as the ultimate purpose of section four the trinity and creation and here we have a dogma the three divine persons are one single common principle of the creation this is a de fiji dogma the three divine persons are one single common principle of the creation the council of florence declared in the decretum project jacobites 1441 pater athelius at spiritual sanctus non tria principia creatore said unum as the work of creation however exhibits a certain similarity with the proprieties of the first person it is usually referred to the father by appropriation see for example the apostles creed in contrast to the teaching of the church there is the viewpoint of a gunter who indeed described the idea of the world and the resolution to create to the three persons but attributed the execution of the work to the work of creation to the second person exclusively and the reunification of creatures with god to the third person exclusively holy stresses the communal character of the operation of the father and of the son and founds this on their community of nature in holy writ the work of redemption is sometimes attributed to the father sometimes to the son see for example matthew 11 25 john 1 3 colossians 1 15 and following first corinthians 8 6 hebrews 1 2 and compares saint augustine's work on the trinity where he says quote in relation to the creation god is called a single principle not two or three principles end quote since the time of saint augustine the general teaching of theologians is that creatures unendowed with reason are a quote trace of the trinity end quote vestigium trinitatis those gifted with reason are called quote image of the trinity unquote imago trinitatis and those endowed with saving grace a quote likeness of the trinity similitudo see the summa remark on that five section five freedom of the divine act of creation or freedom of contradiction here we have a dogma god created the world free from exterior compulsion and inner necessity this is a de fite dogma god created the world free from exterior compulsion and inner necessity the vatican council declared that god with a free will excuse me with a will free from all necessity end quote the vatican definition refers primarily to quote liberta end quote which asserts that god had the choice of creating or not creating it is directly it is directed chiefly against hermes gunter and rosmini who maintained that the goodness of god imposed on him a necessity to create holy script and tradition place the origin of the creation in the free will psalm 134 6 says quote whatsoever the lord pleased he hath done in heaven and earth in the sea and in all the deeps end quote apocalypse 4 11 says quote because thou has created all things and for thy will they were and have been created end quote compare psalm 32 6 wisdom 9 1 11 26 and quote the cause of all that he has created is his will compare saint irenaeus against all heresies the reference is given a pressure from without or an urgency from within is incompatible with god's absolute being and with the independence and self-sufficiency which this implies again no necessity to create derives from god's goodness because the desire for self-communication inherent in the nature of goodness is satisfied in a perfect manner through god's infinite goodness is indeed the reason for his communication of being to creatures but he is not compelled to and here we have a dogma god was free to create this world or any other sent sort of grade of certainty on this dogma god was free to create this world or any other so declared the provincial synod of cologne in 1860 against the absolute optimism expounded by abellard malbrash and leibniz which voltaire made fun of but the best of all possible worlds and all that nonsense according to which god was obliged to create the best imaginable of all possible worlds compare denzinger there's a reference there the world now existing does not possess the highest conceivable measure of perfections neither did god owe it to himself to create the best world because his perfections and happiness cannot be increased even by the best world if one were to deny god's freedom in the choice between this or that world his libertas specificaziones one would limit his omnipotence which extends to all that is intrinsically contrariatis i should say here we have another dogma god has created a good world this is the defeated dogma god has created a good world the council of florence declared in the decretum pro jacobites 1441 against the manichaean area error quote there is no nature bad in itself as all nature in so far as it is nature is good and quote evil is a privation of the good the biblical foundation is genesis 1 31 quote and god saw all things he had made and they were very good end quote compare ecclesiasticus 39 21 and uh first timothy 4 4. god could not create a world that was morally bad as by virtue of his absolute holiness he could he could not be the originator of moral see there's a reference to denzinger against calvin thus god does not possess the libertas contrariatis that is the freedom of against pessimism for example arthur schopenhauer and ed v hartman whoever that is according uh against pessimism according to which the existing world is the worst imaginable the christian view of the world represents a relative optimism which holds the present world to be relatively the best since being a work of the divine wisdom it corresponds to the aim predetermined for it by god and unites in wonderful harmony in itself the various stages of the perfections of the natural so we have a relative optimism we don't have optimus absolute optimism we don't have pessimism we have a relative section six the temporal character of the world one the dogma the world had a beginning in time this is a day feed a dogma the world had a beginning in time while pagan philosophy and modern materialism assume the eternity of the world and also of the world material the church teaches that the world has not existed from all eternity but began to be the fourth lateran council in 1215 and the vatican council was declared together in the beginning of time god founded out of nothing the double order of creatures spiritual and corporal in this the eternity of the world is there's some references given to denzinger and uh some holy writ clearly testifies that the world once was not and that it began to be john 17 5 for example says quote and now glorify thou me o father with thyself with the glory which i have the glory which i had before the world was with thee end quote ephesians 1 4 says quote he chose us in him christ for the foundation of the world end quote psalm 101 26 says quote in the beginning o lord thou found list the earth end quote compare also genesis 1 1 proverbs 8 22 and following psalm 89 2 and john 17 24. the fathers reject the notion of the eternity of the world in the struggle comparation and irenaeus and saint basil the references are given under the influence of plato origin or ironic origin erroneously proposed the idea of series of worlds without a beginning the first of which was created by god from all eternity interesting infinite series of worlds even the atheists talk about this nonsense but they don't have of course the creation by god from all eternity of the first world right they just have an endless series which is untenable philosophically the eternity of the world cannot be proved by philosophical arguments as the existence of the world is due to a free act of god's will god does not necessarily will see the summa the discoveries of modern atomic physics afford the possibility that in virtue of the disintegration process of the radioactive elements the age of the earth and thereby its temporal beginning may positively be proved compare the speech of pius xii in 1951 quote the proof of god's existence in the light of modern natural science i think the laws of thermodynamics do a pretty good job of debunking atheism all three laws two controversy over the possibility of an eternal creation of the world whether or not a created world without a a saint thomas and his school assert that there is no compelling proof from reason of the impossibility of an eternal creation of the world thus that the world was created in time is according to saint thomas purely a truth of faith and not truth of reason reference is given to the suma if you want to look that up in support of this view st thomas explains that the temporal nature of the world can be proved by reason proved by reason neither from the nature of the world nor from its relation to god the concept of the essence of a thing which is the starting point of the proof persians from space and time consequently it cannot be proved from the concept of the world that it did not always exist it is true that the effective cause of the world is the free will of god this however cannot be established through human reason but can be known on the basis of divine revelation only the temporal beginning of the world is therefore not an object of natural knowledge but an object of faith only i disagree b saint bonaventure and many other theologians are however of the opinion that the acceptance of an eternal world creation involves an intrinsic contradiction for creation out of nothing means to have being in succession to non-being that is to say first not to be and then to be amen so i'm with the franciscan school here saint bonaventure is one of the great fathers of the franciscans the fathers also teach that a creature without beginning is not possible they reject the teaching of origin concerning the eternal creation of the first world and affirm against the aryans the saint athanasius says quote even if god can always create still the created things could not always be for they are out of non-being and were not see the eternal creation of a changeable world is not possible because the succession involved in a change constitutes the essence of time only an unchangeable world could be eternal an unchangeable creature is however hardly conceivable as changeability necessarily exists with infinity in any case the material of which the present world is constituted is mutable section seven the incommunicability of the creative power one the creative power as potentia in communicator here we have a dogma god alone created the world that they feed a dogma god alone created the world i'm going to leave there i'm going to probably continue but just want to stop because it's been an hour i will probably continue straight away so thanks for being there and i'll talk to you very soon to you very soon god bless

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