Catholic vs. Other - 2017-09-02 - William

Author Recorded Saturday September 2nd, 2017

There are 41 episodes in the Versus:Other series.

Recorded September 21st, 2017

Catholic vs. Other - 2017-09-21 - Tino

Recorded September 10th, 2017

Catholic vs. Other - 2017-09-10 - Judah

Recorded September 2nd, 2017

Catholic vs. Other - 2017-09-02 - William

Recorded October 21st, 2016

Catholic vs. Other - 2016-10-21 - Ben

William is a very gifted visual artist whom I met at the University of Waterloo. We were in different programs, but we were neighbours. His depth and sensitivity made a deep impression on me even then. I'm glad to have reconnected. • Support the CVS Podcast: • Be a guest on a livestream:

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These YouTube transcripts are generated automatically and are therefore unformatted and replete with errors.
hi I'm William and you're listening to Catholic verses other tell the audience a little bit about yourself who you are what you believe in why you believe it okay I grew up Catholic that was something I never really discarded in the sense that God the Bible Jesus I never really had any doubt or confusion about them but I also felt that meditation and yoga Eastern spirituality I had a hunch since ages ago that there was something within myself that I wanted to develop that way so to make a long story short in 96 I happened upon something called sahaja yoga there was classes in kitchener-waterloo you know Ontario and that's how I found out about sahaja yoga and around that same time my relationship with the divine was kind of moving away from what she called Catholic orthodoxy can you talk just a little bit about your earliest memories of this notion of worship petition prayer anything like that maybe you would have been three four or five six seven years old something like that can you talk a little bit about the early days and your notion of religion I suppose the way I understand it looking back is that because I had parents who got along well with each other respected each other to this day I've never really seen them lose their temper with one another and I think what happens in cases like that is when you hear about God or some kind of benevolent force taking care of the universe you tend to be able to absorb as much of that as you've experienced right so I think if you have very if you have a very secure family life with parents who create a very safe and sort of stable and loving environment it's very straightforward thing and then I think what happens is in your imagination you just pattern your picture of God after the sort of love and supervision you felt from your own parents so whether it was for that reason or for some other reasons I always believed that God was there taking care of everything and in the beginning it was always part of church like we never missed Sunday Mass I was an altar boy my brother was an altar boy you know say prayers at night say the Our Father and the Hail Mary and you know pretty much the full-on Catholic experience such as lots of people had let's say 50 years ago so we're almost part of an earlier generation of Catholicism we never miss church you always say your prayers and all that so it was so much part of the fabric of growing up that you know there was never any doubt or confusion or mystery about it it just seemed quite normal and natural that God was there taking care of everything and then as you grew up going to church and hearing the Scriptures and all that you just hid you could say a richer and a richer picture of Christ Jesus everything like that there might have been a time and I want you to talk about the dark times where you drifted away from God where you drifted away from prayer where you drifted away from basic morality as it's understood in a judeo-christian world can you talk a little bit about the dark stuff and how you may have strayed away or maybe you didn't oh I strayed away it seems that I was just kind of wired for alcoholism a few drinks in I just turned into someone very unpleasant I also never had any ability to moderate my news so one drink would always turn into six or eight or ten fortunately or unfortunately I just never had much money so I was a student and then a full-time artist out of that so I never had a big budget for drinking and all that so that moderated things a little bit but I always had very strict ideas that I would not have sex before marriage and follow Christian morality as far as I could even when I stopped going to church and all of that I still didn't really change my morality much except when I started drinking when you're drunk you kind of don't care much and you could say your baser instincts sort of rule the date and what happens is once you've been to however many parties have however many encounters with various temptations whatever girls drugs will have you it starts to just whittle away at your self-respect in such a way that I was no longer conducting myself in a very moral way even when I wasn't drinking so give you a quick example was I would sometimes shoplift when I was drunk and then one day I just start grabbing stuff I was always broke so usually just like a piece of fruit or some grocery or other but I just grab stuff and stick it in my pocket something I wouldn't have dreamed of doing in my first year of university by my third year of university that was just normal so what happens is drugs alcohol things like that kind of erode your personality that's what happened to my relationship with God I didn't go through any crisis of faith I just ruin myself through other methods so I think this is an appropriate time to introduce your current world you okay I'll use a different word the worldview doesn't quite cover it because worldview seems to imply some kind of rational process it was actually more fundamentals that in the sense that I'd always been seeking ways to deepen myself as an artist and deepen my relationship with whatever the source of spirituality is I remember around the time we met I discovered a book called Jesus lived in India and it's about the missing years from when we hear of Christ in the temple preaching to the elders when he's around 12 years old and then he reappears when he's around 30 and in between it seems as though and I think it's been fairly well established by people who are interested in the question that he went all through the Middle East and as far into Asia as Kashmir and over into India and elsewhere so among the many things that this book started triggering me was the idea that maybe my interest in meditation yoga other things was not necessarily at odds with my Christianity and you know in the Bible of course Christ is always talking about the Hebrew prophets and the Hebrew Scriptures but I couldn't see any reason why he might not talk to Hindus about their scriptures or instead of talking about God the Father of the Old Testament that he might talk to them about Krishna or Vishnu or whatever and it seemed to me that he might be a more of a universal personality what's something that belongs merely to the Christians or the Jews but that he spoke in the language and in the spiritual turns and according to the scriptures of whoever might have been in front of him so I realized that being Christian didn't necessarily require canceling all the other faith traditions so that's maybe a kind of a lone answer but I took that broader approach to seeking and when I when I saw a poster for sahaja yoga which is a meditation practice I went down and checked out the class and learned how to meditate using sahaja yoga there's a woman she's passed on now but her name is Shri Mataji and she developed sahaja yoga and spent from 1970 till around 2012 going around the world teaching people how to use this meditation so couple points are important before we get further on the subject first of all sahaja Yoga is always free and has been since it began in 1970 and Shri Mataji that's s HRI is tree and mata ji is Mata ji her full name is shri mataji service tava or some people know as Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi but she set aside yoga so that it's free everywhere it doesn't have a hierarchy or a membership it's just a complete grassroots faith she used to come regularly to convocation Hall University ternal and after I saw her there I met her briefly after the program and then I had a complete transformation after I met her no more drugs no more alcohol no more cigarettes she's not the one that hugs everyone no no that lady's a fraud actually but most of these Indian gurus are frauds and I've been teaching meditation now for twenty years and I can say that if you run into an Indian group the chances that they're not some kind of charlatan or fraud are almost zero because there's a huge market there's huge amount of money to be made and these people just pop up out of the woodwork it's a bit like what you know you see down in the south there's a lot of those preachers who start saying you send me your money and God will send you blessings and stuff and they're just milking innocent people from their money and stuff like that so the most of the Indian gurus including the hugging lady belong to this category I'm very sorry to say because there's a lot of honest seekers end up hoodwinked by a lot of these in university can you just give one or two examples of Eastern gurus that are not hood winking people that are not charlatans just so we get the other side of the coin that there's some good news you won't know their names and neither will I because they don't have books they don't have videos they don't go on tours they don't charge money I'll give a real simple key to understanding this don't pay attention or anybody that makes money because you can look at Buddha or Christ or any of the prophets or divine incarnations or anybody in any of the faith traditions none of them ever made a business of it you're talking about guys that owned a pair of sandals in a robe now I think we know what happens to good authentic people right they get crucified they get killed they get strung up they get tortured if you think about Socrates he was killed for his love of truth and you know a lot of people don't consider him a religious man I do oh I think he is I think he's a divine incarnation I mean in the sense that he's one of these pure personalities who are not saddled with the kind of failings and shortcomings that the rest of us ordinary people are and that they come on this earth at different time in different places to help us all alone and yeah most of them end badly because the status quo is generally not very interested in finding out that the world that they're exploiting his false and sure mataji kept her divine nature kind of more or less under wraps so maybe that helped but there is another answer which is maybe more interesting which is that in the big UGA's or the cycles of the turnings of the wheel in the India time line it's a scale of thousands and thousands of years Kali Yuga is the last couple thousand years and that is the darkest age when the Piscean age ended and the Aquarian age began then there was something called Krita Yuga which is a transitional age and that is an age in which truth gets revealed and evil gets kind of exposed so then you get the kind of churning that you see in the 20th and 21st century where all of a sudden somehow all the secrets come out and my feeling is that this is an age of exposure and you can't just go on sweeping truth under the rug and it actually is transitioning into the Satya Yuga which is the age of truth enlightenment which is what we're supposed to be on the doorstep of okay I understood that we were in the final age according to the Hindus that I spoke with yes well there's different ways of interpreting it so when you reach the culmination of Kali Yuga this transitional phase is the Last Judgement so there's different ways of understanding the Last Judgement but all the signs in every prophecy and everything points to the age were in now but you've probably heard of Shiva Shiva Lingam right yeah well Shiva Lingam is that stone but they offer prayers to if you're honoring or worshipping Shiva but anyways Sadashiva is like God Almighty and he has this dance of destruction see they break that Godhead into creator preserver and destroyer so that's Sri Rama Sri Vishnu and Shri Shiva and this dance of destruction is supposed to bring the end of a cycle and then a new cycle begins but that happens if if Sadashiva is displeased with how human beings are behaving so the wheel can turn to an age of truth and enlightenment or if we're not behaving ourselves properly then we can dissolve the universe scrap it and start over there's very strong parallels between Christian and other ways of understanding Last Judgement it's just that in the Christian Last Judgement there's no turning of the wheel in the sense that if we get it right we don't enter the age of truth and enlightenment here on earth it depends how you interpret like when you say the kingdom of God is among us you could understand that on a collective level that there is the kingdom of God is within us meaning in our bodies in our beings on this earth while we live here not just in heaven so if you understand it that way is kind of identical to the Hindi way of looking and I've interviewed two hindus i entered them on the same day but one of them mentioned that there is a shiva lingam actually being worshipped by all the muslims in the Kaaba in Mecca have you heard this yeah this is brings me back to that vision of Christ as a universal beam so I'll get to the stone at Mecca in a second but I want you to imagine first a metaphor in which there is one Tree of Life so now you've probably heard of the chakras the Kundalini there's a subtle body and if whether you're a reflexologist or whether you're doing acupuncture or whether using any esoteric Chinese or Indian medicine or yoga or anything like that you're dealing with the energy body so if your surgeon cuts you open he's not going to find your heart chakra or your navel or whatever it's subtler than the world of the five senses you could imagine it as are more essential or more eternal self right and that the way we behave in the slings and arrows of our worldly existence clogs up or imbalances or otherwise gets stored up on our energy body and that all of our physical manifestations all over behavior everything like they're just outward expressions of what's been happening on the subtle body so imagine this tree of life there's also a macro version so there's the microcosm which is you and I but we're in the image of God and the macro is the Tree of Life which is I don't know you could say the superstructure of the whole cosmos or whatever and that the history of humankind's relationship with the divine is like this tree and but different prophets and incarnations are like different flowers that blossomed at different times on different branches different times places and they each have different fragrance but they're all fed on one sack of know thyself one SAP of you could say our evolution towards self-realization so according to this Christ or Muhammad's father would be the same father in heaven in fact Mohammed would tell you the same thing too gets as you probably know he honored and I would go so far as to say worship though Muslims would not use that word Christ and his mother as well as Abraham and Moses and all that and that all these divisions between the different religions are just artificial ones imposed for political or other reasons by human beings because we can't grasp well the Sufis actually believes that God has come in many times and places in different forms and that there is like William Blake said that all religions are one but in any case Muhammad's problem with idolatry was that these warlike desert people of his time in place did not have the capacity to treat a statue or a painting as a metaphor as a symbol but if he didn't restrict the use of idols that they would just fall into idolatry right but there is something called swayambhu it's basically the idea that there is chakras like we have in our own body that there's also chakras on the mother earth and that these are actually not an idol in the sense that they simply represent some source of inspiration or spiritual sustenance but they're actually divine objects created by the mother earth there are special places and that this Lingam is a manifestation of the father principle and so Muslims are all about God the Father right they don't really get into the feminine side and all of that so much so just happened to be one of those which you call like a Shiva Lingam and so that's why even though Muslims are not into worshipping the world of forms and into the formless God but that Muhammad made an exception for this particular thing and that it is exactly what a Hindi would call our Shiva Lingam and the idea is that everything flows with spiritual energy and that an object a place a person a book whatever its vibratory signature is something that you can interact with these swayam booze are places where there's a very potent in a very pure vibration I mean a very simple version of it would be that if you leave the city and go to your cottage and sit by the lake or whatever you'll find it much easier to meditate because the vibratory environment but you're trying yourself in is feeding your spirit and it's quieting your more complicated parts I am very much a Western mind a product of the Western culture I know that it's popular to go to the east my problem with the East philosophically religiously is that it ignores a lot of important questions for example a questions of origin where did the universe come from the question of destination is there a difference between the worst case scenario and the best case scenario for any being questions even simple questions like how many beings are there like you and I are we - or are we one I've asked many people in the east and I don't get a straight answer I get are we - yes are we one yes and I don't get any any real satisfying answer even when I talk about the ultimate eternal outcome for you or for me if we're to or if were one my hunch is that we're all one according to the East but people just don't like to admit that my hunch is that there's only God there's only heaven and that all suffering is illusion according to all the Eastern world views well I don't know where you got your hunches from but they're both absolutely correct and anybody who coming from Zen or Buddhism or Sikhism or Hinduism in its mainstream who's telling you otherwise just doesn't really know the background because that was well-established ever since the time of Adi Shankaracharya I don't know if you've heard of Adi Shankar Acharya one of the greatest of all the scholars from the Vedic tradition and so Adi Shankar Acharya was part of a debate that was coming up in Hinduism and Buddhism which was debate between duality and non-duality which is exactly what you're talking about and he was basically said to have put all his competitors to rest in all the various debates and discussions which is that there is only one there is only the parabrahma the all-pervading divine and that duality is just an illusion in fact that's the whole concept of Maya which is the whole world of the five senses is illusory it's basically the sort of bootcamp that all of our souls go to to kind of whip ourselves into shape so that we can ascend the evolutionary ladder to rejoin the source from which we have come so even the concepts of heaven and hell are not all incompatible with yoga and even in the Christian tradition there was people who believed in reincarnation it's essentially the same you know you were saying questions of meaning and direction and source and destination and all of that it really comes down to the idea that we are ascending to return to the divine source for which we all came and that darkness was created to teach us about light and that the freedom to sin was given to us so that we could in our own freedom through our own will and through our own efforts come to God has our own legitimate experience not just that we were just made divine but that on our own terms in our own freedom we get to accomplish it it seems as though love cannot really be understood until you kind of struggle through its opposites to reach it I suppose the big difference between reincarnation and the more you could say a more mainstream Christian view of things is just that we have a longer scale of time to reach heaven I want to ask a little bit about annihilation or Nirvana there's some schools of Buddhism that don't believe that we reunited with the one mind of Buddha or with God but that we simply step out entirely of existence and that were annihilated so there's no joy there's no bliss there's no fulfillment it's just stepping out and nothing and this strikes me as a sort of nihilistic pessimistic atheism which dominates secular society yeah yeah right it's based on a fundamental misunderstanding of Buddha as an atheist and so it's trying to graph the spiritual dimensions of Buddhism on to atheism and the only way to do that is to end up with this bleak nihilistic version of Buddhism which I don't buy for a second I think Buddha just understood that let's talk about self-realization let's talk about immersion into egoless state because if you talk about God before people have a connection to God it just gets them into all kinds of blind Allen's and that is a fair point to be made which is that human beings can get into all kinds of nonsense in the name of God and if you can achieve your self-realization or Buddha consciousness or whatever you want to call it is simply that you achieve your yoga you get United to God and that the idea as far as I can understand from the Buddhist scriptures is that the removal of the ego meaning the get rid of all the things that separates you from God is the achieving of Satori or enlightenment or self-realization so that is the Kundalini awakening as he described it in in the sanskrit that comes first as the priority in buddhism so presumably buddha could have been to himself well there's no point in describing God or talking about God these people are not connected to God it's just going to turn into another book or another concept or another stupid religion so let's just talk about enlightenment as if that's all there is the idea being that if you choose your enlightenment then you're connected to God so there's no confusion about what God is because you experience it in your own awareness I don't believe for a minute but Buddha was an atheist and I think this mixed together of atheism and Buddhism it's more of a modern interpretation okay my main concern with Buddhism Hinduism all the Eastern religions and with Judaism in its most of its modern forms is that it says that everyone goes to heaven ultimately or some or goes to God or whatever you want to call it there's a happy ending for everyone and in my mind if there's only God then there's really no incentive to do the right thing and that we can only applaud those who want to go and see how deep the rabbit-hole of evil is we have to applaud those people that are mapping out that part of this great dream that is the material physical world which is really illusory we could do nothing but applaud these people that are going into the dark stinky corners of this and there's no harm no foul because we're all destined for the same outcome which is a wonderful happy eternal joyful outcome do you do you see how that undermines morality and my from my perspective well yeah and I I agree with you completely and if you look at people from the east who generally believe in reincarnation it's basically a ladder a ladder to return to perfection and ladders go both ways right okay so the best-case scenario is going back to God up that ladder to God the worst-case scenario is that you're stuck at the bottom of the ladder and you're eternally damned is that correct I mean just from never mind requiring people to answer that through some kind of perception of mystical reality just at the human level where as you can see that there are levels to which you can sink in your individual life from which you can't crawl back ok so that sounds like there are permanent lasting eternal negative consequences what I would call hell this is a good point to sort of go into your questions about my faith because I don't want to believe any lies and I don't want to just sort of coast through comfortable and complacent I want to be challenged yeah well maybe I'll take it a bit from my path how it led me away from it there's an energy you've probably heard of it it's called the Kundalini that ordinary human awareness is dormant in the sacrum bone at the base of the spine it's said to be there in three-and-a-half coils it's talked about it's symbolized in different faith traditions in different ways the Greeks had it as this serpentine force like you know that's signed for the medical profession you have those spiraling snakes and anyways this serpent energy is if you dig deep enough it's in many different traditions but anyways according to the Sanskrit that energy is called as Kundalini it just means it's a coiled energy and when it's awakened from the sacrum bone that's when the yoga takes place it travels up the center of the subtle body and it pierces the crown chakra what Buddha called the thousand pedaled Lotus at the crown of the head and according to how Christian and when I understand it that's the Holy Spirit and that thousand petaled Lotus would be the tongues of flame that the Apostles had when they had their Holy Spirit awakened like at the time of the Pentecost remember after the resurrection Christ appeared to them and they had the tongues of flame and so on so in practical terms when that energy has been triggered you start to feel evidence of spiritual reality on your central nervous systems in particular there's different places of your hands your palm your fingertips where you feel a response of the different chakras so the reason why I'm describing this is because there's a very practical way of explaining how I started to feel very differently about catholic church which is that as my vibratory awareness on my central nervous system got more and more developed i would feel more and more heat burning tingling when i went to church so the burning and the tingling is a sign of a blockage or a constriction in the subtle body it's basically the bad news so if you are in a situation or faced with a person or even if you put your attention on some question or concern or something which is not benevolent the negative responses felt as this burning and tingling now you could say oh maybe that was just a particular church or whatever but it tended to be fairly consistent that if i was going to church or some such situation related to catholicism but it was awfully bernie and tingly so then i started thinking okay so how is this incompatible with christ because as far as i understand christ is not hard on anybody than he is on hypocrites he's always going after the scribes and the pharisees because they're leading people down all kinds of wrong roads in the name of god so that they're not just sinners outright but that they're pretending to be something else so it seems to me that maybe your ads for each catholic or even your average priest it's not a lot better or worse than other guys walking around but because they're standing there in their robes and seeing jesus miss and christ that that it's a bit hard on the subtle system so this is well borne out by christ saying words which is that you know there's the thing where he describes the pharisees like tunes sepal curves right so that they've got all their fancy garments it sounds exactly like he's describing the pope right cuz he's in these big marble halls with these big fancy gowns and stuff like that we can all agree that the popes are not infallible and no i firmly believe that all of the popes are infallible it's the office of pope not the person of the pope that's infallible and infallibility is a very limit power and it's a negative power means that they can't teach error concerning faith and morals when they teach in a certain very well-defined way and the whole church shares in that infallibility I have a passive infallibility as a faithful Catholic infallibility is not that exciting really when you get down to it it's just that we're protected from air yeah the way you described it it just means that they're just human like the rest of us doesn't mean anything well it means what it means is that we can trust the church because God exists God is a Trinity the second person incarnated Jesus Christ took on flesh became a man he's fully God fully man he founded a church and his church is his spotless bride it's also his mystical body and so the church is Christ and if God is infallible and Christ is God and if Christ is one body with the church then the church is infallible so the thing we need to picture when we picture the church is not just the church here on earth in this fallen world we need to picture the purified the triumphant in heaven the suffering Church in purgatory that's being purified and the dirty priests and everyone else down here on earth that haven't even started being purified well some of them have we call them Saints the ones that accomplished a heroic virtue on earth and that do their purgatory on earth and go straight to heaven we call them Saints and they're very rare and they're very extraordinary and if they walk into a room I guarantee you're gonna feel it but there's a step lower on that hierarchy which are the hypocrites I would put at least a bunch of us in the intermediate stage which you're ascribing the church to and I would put the church beneath our feet as the hypocrites because at least we're not pretending to be bringing the rest of humankind into some kind of communion with God I'm quite familiar with Catholic theology as well so I would respectfully disagree and place the power structure of the Vatican beneath the common man down with the hypocrites I think that makes sense because to believe that God Almighty took on flesh founded an infallible church to believe that is to be Catholic if you believe that eating the flesh of animals is wrong then you're a vegetarian and the hypocrite who claims to be a vegetarian but that's secretly gorging himself on meat every night he's beneath contempt it's true but there are real vegetarians that abstain from eating meat and there are real Catholics who believe that they are eating the body blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ who is God incarnate and I'm one of those people I do believe I believe there are real Christians I believe there are people who are flowing with the love of Christ do you have any favorite Saints Christian Saint Joan of Arc oh yeah one of my favorites very popular I mean a lot of the great Saints were not particularly popular with Christians that's like after we burned them they were like oh yeah yeah well we were wrong and we'll make them a saint now but I I don't think that this has changed that a real saint showed up in the midst of the Vatican there would be panic and I I'm sorry the current Pope I think he's just substituted the old hard-line conservativism of Benedict with a kind of Latin American socialism this very naive view of Christianity as a political movement but what I say about the fact that they're real Christians is that I've met them I've met no Christians I'd like to think I'm among their lesser ranks I've met many greater than I I'd be surprised if there's one of them within a stone's throw of the Vatican there's hardly a Christian among them because it's not hard to see that Evo loves to put on the garb of spirituality it is the devil's favorite weapon the worst adherence of any profit or incarnation are usually the people that are most vehemently trying to follow that person I'll give you a quick example Christ was completely unmaterialistic humble beginnings in the manger humble life growing up as a carpenter and a very humble life of spreading the good news with his robe and his sandals and nothing else Christians have been consistently the most aggressive the most materialistic and the most ambitious builders of wealth and Empire I'll give you another example in Hinduism in the Vedic tradition the core idea is that you're all brahma we are all divine we all come from that source we're all capable of reflecting that source so why would you have castes why would you have untouchables and why would someone be higher in somerville or or like Sikhism Guru Nanak came to bring unity between Hindus and Muslims so what do his followers do do they try to integrate Hinduism and Islam no they just started a third so consistently human-beings do the opposite of whoever they're trying to follow and I think looking to the Vatican for a Christian would be the last place to start just found human nature I'm not picking on Catholics ahead of any other religion that is human nature the closer you get to the centers of power you just turn the dial up on hypocrisy if you include my parents their siblings and then their aunts and uncles there are both perpetrators and victims of priests sex abuse in my immediate family I'm talking in media family it's absolutely widespread and I think it's part and parcel of the corruption that comes from setting oneself up as someone who's capable of bringing others to guarding celibacy is obviously a bad idea I disagree with that statement that celibacy is a bad idea well it's a product if you don't have the spiritual caliber cope with it but I think there's I think that there is some fundamental evil that works through the Catholic Church just like there's fundamental evil working through other religions it's a favorite pathway for evil to take because you can say God said so or you can use authority and power the way the priests until recently got away with using to do whatever they terribly yeah I thoroughly agree that there is corruption running rampant and evil running rampant among them so-called members of the church and the hierarchy and the smoker Satan has entered the church as Pope Paul the sixth famously said and the corruption of the best is the worst and that there are a lot of people that have no business being in the Catholic Church but they want the trappings that come with it so why not just have it between you God because of the sacraments because of the channels of grace that were instituted by Christ the seven sacraments you you realize those sacraments are all being administered by priests yeah and as long as they intend to do what the church does then they're valid regardless of the holiness or the lack of holiness of those ministers we can we can respectfully disagree on that I mean for the sake of your listeners it's probably interesting but as far as I'm concerned I'm pretty familiar with the theology and I find it doesn't add up with all due respect the last thing I want is for you to pretend to believe it because you know that we have enough people in the church that are pretending to believe what the Church teaches we don't need one more so I very much appreciate that you don't call yourself a Catholic because there there are plenty of people that are calling themselves Catholics that are what I consider wolves in sheep's clothing and they are they're my only real ideological enemies on this planet because people that are born and raised Catholic and that have turned away and followed a sincere calling to a spiritual path I have nothing but love and respect and admiration for them and I applaud them and I encourage them to continue but those people that want the power and the glory that from a high position in the church or any other the trappings of being a Catholic for whatever reasons that I find repugnant and I think you do too you're in a very rare class because I think there's very few people who are simply using it as a vehicle to come closer to God there is a line that is crossed I'm sure you're familiar with that where Christ says that if you are hurting children that it would be better if you had had this millstone tied around your neck and throw into the sea my feeling is that not only that some bad apples are child predators but there are systemic ways in which those predators have been shielded and even allowed access to children that crosses a line where I know I am no longer dealing with this kind of church on earth that you're describing that there is something that is essentially evil I think that that ideal of a fallen but striving Church is not on the table anymore that there are depths which you cannot rise from hmm I always ask my guests to give a little closing thought just speak directly to the audience because we don't know who's listening but there might be someone out there that just needs a little ray of hope from your perspective what could you say to anyone that's out there listening right now okay well so how did yoga meditation is free it's fantastic I've seen extraordinary transformations within myself and people around me but if someone looks into it and that's not their cup of tea there's actually something much broader which I can also recommend which is just to check out self offering Oh Jordan Peterson yeah Jordan B Peterson I forget the name of his website but all you have to do is look up Jordan Peterson like I'd recommend the Joe Rogan podcast there was two of them they're both excellent but the first Joe Rogan podcast he talks about self authoring and the advantage there is that if you go through the Joe Rogan podcast of Jordan Peters and who's going to youtube search Joe Rogan Jordan Peterson there'll be links for rebates so you can use the Joe Rogan rebate and get a get a discount on your cell phone if you go through the past offering to begin with and then the future offering I think you'll be able to end up confronting whatever it is that's standing between you and your innermost self but between sahaja yoga and self offering I don't think there's a problem that cannot be sorted out by anyone no matter how much trouble