hi this is Maggie and you're listening to Catholic versus Catholic so just tell us a little bit about yourself if you would please who you are what you believe and how he came to believe it that that's a huge question um I grew up in the novus ordo and we did the round of church hopping you know trying to find a more conservative parish because every parish we went to you would become increasingly liberal and I don't know if the bishop is just the nature of the beast or whatever but we ended up kind of just throwing in the town there I love this since it doesn't matter where you go anymore I will just go to the one closest to us but we were very disillusioned you know I was in public high school at the time between my junior and senior year of high school we went math and they announced that they're gonna have the new Eucharistic ministers but they had this girl go prancing up to the altar and her gogo GU short skirt admit dress we're sitting there looking at it and going no you got to be kidding me this is not going to happen this teenager is going to give us God himself so that was the last straw for us of all the things that we hadn't had to experience is another sword oh so we decided to look around and see what some options were and my parents had remembered way back and I think over the concentrations of the 788 that uh there was a Latin Mass in San Antonio and they had gone but then the next indications was a society when it was consecrated the bishops and john paul ii excommunicated them that scared him off so they thought they didn't continue going there but at this point it was kind of like well something's gotta give they couldn't be all wrong considering how wrong this is so we started going there through that entire year and that was a huge eye-opener of course becoming traditional Catholic and realizing just I mean because before I was just fantastic and you know sort of it's like this fog it's a WoW you don't know what sin is you know I was teaching my catechism teacher how to say the Hail Mary you know how she did not say so so this is a bit absurd so going in to the first sermon we had I'll never forget it was his father Elise and he gave the sermon on the merits and benefits and purpose and need for confession and I just remember that whole week in between the one Sunday in the next I was freaking out I was terrified I died right now I am going straight to hell because I hadn't had a good confession like ever because there was an oath or two and they just tell you oh it's not that you know me didn't you know which were supposed to confess because you don't know what's in it they don't make it clear that this is a sin this is not a sin this is the mortal sin this is a venial sin you know how you know if it's a mortal sin how do you know if you're in a state of grace can you know sharing a state race all those things you don't know when you're no novus ordo in general perhaps that's chain might gotten a little bit better when they seem the attraction for traditionalism among so many of the faithful I don't know but uh anyway the following Sunday I was wet with the traditional priests call of the big fish for that that's Sunday sick about tied up his entire confession time because I didn't realize I was doing what's called a general confession I didn't realize that's what I was doing at the time and all of us were just crying you know because it's the feeling of the youth come home at last so ended ago in st. Mary's I read a ton just read so much about tradition and sitacles by all the the Pope before vatican ii learned so much about doctrine and about the church and i read to the Society's arguments why they can do what they do their justification for it so basically the the supplied jurisdiction aspect as well as their arguments against said of a concert doesn't and it didn't completely satisfy but it's satisfied enough so and then I went to st. Mary's and I ended up living in st. Mary's for a while and I ended up dating somebody who was living there at the time and unbeknownst to me he was out of the contest and he ended up moving but shortly before he we were gonna date long distance before he ended up moving he drops the bomb on me that he was sort of a contest wait a minute how can you be said of a contest because at the time his you know they were kind of like well you know it's a match go to and they didn't think it mattered that much and they don't think that way now what they thought at the time but so my plan was to prove to him why City Wisconsin was wrong so I researched it for an entire year and both sides made logical sense and then so I was oh those a real dilemma I said well if both sides can be right then how am I to know which side is right and especially because it affected you know am I gonna marry this man are we gonna continue this relationship was at that point we knew we wanted to get married so I took it to the priest and I said you know what Iona leave this in the hands of God I'm gonna go to this priest and I'm gonna tell him my situation and I'm gonna let him handle it I did not know this priest personally he happen to be director of st. Mary's at the time or the herd the Academy and then we went to go have the appointment he sobbed me off on to another priest now like okay now I'm really thinking like okay whatever he says because this wasn't even my personal choice of a priest this was a priest that was assigned to me for the situation I'm just going to go with a hand of God if he says no I'm gonna break up with him and it's gonna be over so I talked to this priest he was a he was a German priests at the society that happened to be assigned to the u.s. post so I said I explained to him the situation and he said so you don't know whether or not you can marry him I said yeah and he said don't worry about it anyway buddy learning means don't worry about it don't usually this whole fight this massive fight between the set of a contest and the society more than anything it's an American problem it's like in Europe not so much of a problem because we're all fighting on the same side which is tradition and I said well if that's my answer I guess I'm gonna go with it so I did and I ended up moving to the same place where my husband was and there's a big chapel there so there's a sort of a contest and they had a lot of people that thought that you know he's converting for her spouse to get married which was I found out incredibly insulting actually because it's kind of like well no that would be me selling out on my principles you know I'd have to have some idea that that there was some justification some reasonable justification for what he believed in order to be able to marry him and I continued my research and I figured out what the crux of the problem was that I had and why it was that both it's been made sense because they said you know what it can't both make sense and I figured out that the Society of st. Pius the tenth and their justification for what they do is not reasonable and it's not logical and it doesn't make sense from the standpoint of what the Church teaches and I was committed to do so the contrast and Here I am can you talk a little bit about your siblings and your parents what their take was on your transition and where did they go from there well the rest of my family is still society accepting for one of my siblings who fell away from the he'd he left before we ended up becoming traditional so all the rest are in the sspx correct how is that shaped your relationship with them oh it certainly hasn't been easy tons of drama regarding my marriage just times you know we were in st. Mary's we were blasted from the pulpit they were cold point-blank you are not allowed to go and ob1 so now my friends are allowed to go there's very much of blackballing by the Society of Saint Pius attend the local people and my best friend had to get permission from her priest to go to my wedding so she was the only one I had there my people because my family refused to attend because the I don't know they see it as a different religion even though we don't practice any differently it's traditionalism same as anything else but so in a nutshell how would you characterize the essential differences between SSPX and said of accantus there's a couple of minor things like technically they follow the 83 code of canon law but you'll get a lot of people in the society there oh there's scandalized that anybody will be you know he all of us because kind of all you follow the seventeen code of canon law but from the top down you're supposed to following to a three code of canon law so you have people that do that may say well like you know as long as you're doing a some other soccer spice you don't have to do too fast on Friday Noah and also if you follow the calendar for the notice or they don't follow the traditional calendar those are minor differences but the biggest difference is the Pope issue is the Pope issue best summarized as are an hour recognize and resist that's what I've heard bandied around yes there'll be the recognize Mary this position is the the society position so they're saying we recognize your authority but we exist it and they'll say like will are deciding line or lie on the sand is tradition we go by what tradition says the only the biggest problem with not those that it makes them the arbiters of tradition it's not vastly different from the set of a con disposition but at the same time so these people that are in recognizing this within you know the church has the church is done for the true they'll say these things that are just you can't say that about the church the church is a perfect society she's the Bride of Christ and they don't even realize because they're so accustomed to having this duality of the good Church and at the same time the bad Church two different things within the same entity and that doesn't work I always personally think of it as the baby in the bath water and if I get splashed with bath water now and again I just brush it off and continue focusing on the baby which is Jesus Christ we call that the bad Pope argument and I understand it truly I do that's a vast difference though there's a distinction to be made between a defection from the faith and immorality those are two different matters I know the difference between being a sinner and being a heretic but the open question in my mind is can a pope be a material heretic or not I prefer to think not but there is evidence to support the notion that the church can correct a pope and there is it built into the definition of heretic the idea of obstinacy right no that's the same arguments as a society has that you know no we can correct the Pope nor I argue that we can correct the Pope how would you summer the biggest heresies of Vatican 2 in a nutshell for me it'll be the religious liberty that's the biggest thing Vatican 2 teaches freedom of religion that people have an intrinsic right to determine their own religion that they don't I have always known and understood and been taught by my church that indifferentism is a heresy and it's been condemned by the church and then the set of the countess that I talk to say oh well if you read Vatican 2 it is in favor of religious indifferentism but I don't believe the set of a contests because I've never heard any Catholic except for the set of a contests saying the Vatican 2 teachers that in different ISM is the flavor of the month oh no what they don't call it in difference ISM they don't want to do something that mean especially if it's already condemned they're not going to want to do something where they can be called out for that easily they're not coming out and saying this sort of thing it's a little confessional it's in the amorous Letizia it doesn't matter it doesn't matter do what you want Mother Teresa telling people they don't need to convert because they can save your soul you can do you can do this if Mother Teresa is not a saint up in heaven then I will have to leave Christianity and because if the Catholic Church is wrong what else is there right there's nothing else there they did the proofs got a liar right that's the dilemma I can understand I will never abandon God God's not a liar but I will have to find a monotheism that is better than Catholicism the Catholicism that I adhere to is so amazing and is so good that I can't even imagine a better form of monotheism but if I abandon Jesus Christ I will not settle for less than the Catholicism that I'm adhering to now because the truth is better than any fantasy because of the nature of God and His goodness I completely admire your objective search for the truth and your commitment but like so many you're under the mistaken impression that if that's not it then there's nothing there they have the buildings they have the money the offices they even have the title but they don't have the faith no but they do have the faith that's my point there's nothing that any set of accantus has ever told me that makes me think that my church isn't traditional my church is traditional and if I think back to the Donatists heresy do you know real I didn't like in the 3rd 4th centuries there was st. Cyprian I believe it was who said you can't have God for your father if you don't have the church for your mother and I would take it one step further and say you can't have God for your father if you don't have the church for your mother and you can't have the church for your mother if you don't have the Pope for your father so that's why I would never become a set of accantus because I want a pope I need a Pope I would much rather kiss the feet of Pope Michael in Kansas than become a set of a Cantus because I want a pope well Michael is there because he started outside of kindness and he took it way too far that is an admirable quality it's a gravitational pole that we should have towards having a pulp absolutely but you don't lose the face it's not like because oh well the Pope died and it's an enter a knee and therefore it was a face how do you resolve doctrinal questions and how do you confront heresy if you're the one true church how do you do that you go by the teaching of the church because you mentioned earlier with the SSPX that they have made themselves the arbiters of tradition so who are the arbiters of tradition in the set of the contest sure we'll see here's the difference right we're holding a line from Pius the 12th it's like closing off the tap we accept nothing after a pious football is there a living Magisterium today no there's no living Magisterium that is so unappealing to me I mean I don't know why anyone joins you I really don't it's just unbelievable can you just explain to me why you're more happy being a side of the countess then you are being what you call a Novus Ordo I'm not happy to not have a pope because that is a corrent which should be abhorrent to any Catholic because there is a belief in the papacy and a love for the papacy but we do not believe that the church can't the only way we can explain this contradiction is that he is not the Pope so when you asked me if I'm happier of course not I don't know when he said a conscious okay they were happy not have a pope but the Protestants are happy to not have a pope and the Orthodox are happy to not have a pope so this clearly distinguishes you from the Orthodox and the Protestants right right even though I think there's a fair bit of private judgment involved in being a set of a can't astray because there are set of accantus that go further back than 1958 and the last Pope for them was not Pius the 12th there are different ways of drawing that line here you're trying to be like the the old Catholics I don't even know what they're called but one of my main arguments is I'd like to just wait one or two more centuries before I decide I want the hindsight of history to reveal what is going on here and now in this messy situation with the Catholic Church because I know from looking at the history of the church that the people that were living in the complicated times and that were drawn to this heresy or that schism they had the best of intentions and if they had only stayed in the church they wouldn't be on the wrong side of history now Vatican see when a Novus Ordo is departing clearly departing and contradicting church teaching it's a doctrinal difference what about the Donatists because they're a good example because they were hard-line sort of right-wing conservative types the doctrine that they developed which was in contradiction to the Catholic doctrine was a new thing under consideration because they'd never undergone this before I had to do with persecution and people that defect under pressure and that want to come back and the Donatists took a hard line and the church took a soft line and they chose to separate themselves but this is my point that the essential point is that they believed themselves to be the one true church and this is why st. Cyprian wrote on the unity of the church and why he said that if you don't have the church every mother you can't have God for your father so it's it's very similar I think to the set of a Cantus position where you think that you are the true church you think that your hardline is more Catholic than the so-called Novus order soft line the church didn't contradict itself and they were resisting a contradiction the church makes a ruling about something it can't contradict itself but my point with my little thought experiment where I'm just gonna wait a couple more centuries to find out which way I'm gonna go and meanwhile I'll stay in the safety of the church the point of that is that only time will tell if there was a genuine contradiction in Vatican 2 and I'm not just going to take your word for it but can you please tell me why I should consider the mask that I went to today invalid was it in English no it was in sense okay well so that would probably be my first problem with it is that you're not using a dead language because using a living language the words can change and their meaning which is why the church is always these Latin because it is unchanging in its meaning so it's a way to protect from error when was a lot mass first said because it wasn't the Last Supper I can tell you that much it was a lie supper was not in Latin so how many centuries do you think it was between Jesus Christ's instituting the Eucharist and the first Latin Mass you know I couldn't tell you that if it's so important that it being Latin you should know the answer to that question I think does it matter to you no it doesn't matter no it doesn't and the reason why no good reason why is because if the church decided that that was the best thing to do and that's what the church decided there is no doubting what the church has taught I don't doubt it but I think that those who separate themselves from the church significantly doubt it and I just want unity but to know the Sordo isn't unified right so the unity of the church feels first and foremost with doctrine because without doctrine you have nothing the Novus Ordo isn't unified in its own doctrine I could go from one church to another Church and it's different I got one priests saying one thing and another priest saying a different thing you got the bishops right now that are involved with trying to correct your Pope on doctrinal issues yeah but there were you know like I said with the Donatists there were donatons bishops and there were there were Arian bishops you know many I think they don't numbered the Catholic Bishops actually so there's a historical precedent for that and we got through that right I mean anything that the said of accantus can complain about since vatican ii or since 1958 i can complain about a similar story in history not well you have a pulp teaching heresy that's never happened what is the heresy though that it's it's being taught freedom religion the heresies of vatican tree but like i told you i the only person that's ever taught me that in different ism is acceptable in the novus ordo is a set of a countess I'm not naive about the post Vatican two world that's the world that I entered straight from atheism but I'm also not naive about the area in heresy or the Donatists heresy or all these other things or the medieval popes but there's so much beauty in those that are adhering to the teachings of the church do you see what I mean these are many I hope yeah no absolutely you have the virtue of faith that is a beautiful thing and that's why and he said it's it's like because we consider the Novus Ordo a false religion right it's by virtue of faith by that virtue of faith so you'll say her soul I just consider it a pit-stop that's what it was for me he's a pit stop I didn't entire time I was so lost and confused and very close to losing my faith because I was ending up in a single event many other Catholics are and how comes this claim to be true and yet we see this glorious shining church the church it is undetectable it is a glorious shining thing it's tragic the number of souls that are being lost due to this false teaching it is so rare so rare for people to have the tenacity and the focus and dedication at all costs to that commitment for truth no matter what come what may no matter what where the chips fell there no matter how they fall I am gonna find the truth that does not happen and it's a ministration god and I'm so glad that you've cooperated with it so many of the people that go to the Novus Ordo sadly I'm not going there because it's the right religion they're going there because a it's in the blood right there Irish the Mexican or they've been Kathy or the French you know whatever they've been Catholic they're raised calves this is what you do it's just what you do okay yeah you've already given me morning than enough time but I'm gonna wrap things up but just have a lot of I always have a lot more to say and I just I'm excited to talk about religion right but do you do you have any we're like for example did you do them on 14 consecration or do you have any other Mary specifically Marian devotions that are part of your regular devotions rosary how is the rosary yeah I mean at this point we have seven children and one of them was they're all you know 10 and under so my life is pretty insane laughter I mean I have to recommend consecration to Mary at for us it's a wonderful book and I think st. Teresa of Avila's you've ever had a chance to read her autobiography very compelling mm-hmm however yeah just the biggest thing I'd be the rosary and you avoid the Luminous Mysteries I do even though they're they're legitimate meditations on the life of Jesus and Mary during those particular scenes that are portrayed I don't believe that the rosary needed to be improved upon and like I said as the we don't anything after Vatican 2 we don't abide by okay so thank you for your time at the end of my interviews I always ask my guests to just give a little message of hope so what would you say to anyone that might be out there listening enough I guess if I had to say one thing to somebody be that they have to believe they're their own intrinsic value the value that they have an immortal soul and that God wants them with him forever you know John 3:16 he gave His only begotten Son for you individually for me individually he would have done through the entire passion just for you and if that doesn't give us hope of a the goodness of God and how much he wants us