Catholic vs. Catholic – 2017-09-30 – Stephen Heiner

Stephen is a Sedevacantist. He lives in Paris, where he writes and manages small businesses. He writes on culture, the permanent things, and all things French. He also served in the United States Marine Corps Reserve as a Nuclear Biological and Chemical Defense Specialist.


Please excuse any errors as these captions were automatically generated by YouTube.

0:00 hello this is Steven and you’re
0:01 listening to Catholic versus Catholic so
0:07 just tell the listeners if you would
0:09 please a little bit about yourself who
0:10 you are what you believe and how you
0:11 came to believe it my name is Steven
0:14 Heiner I’ve been Catholic my entire life
0:16 I was raised that way by two very devout
0:20 parents I am a writer living in Paris
0:25 and I’m an American which suppose makes
0:27 me a cliche but I am here after having
0:31 built businesses for the last decade and
0:33 they still continued to do that but I’m
0:35 enjoying more time writing and traveling
0:38 living on my favorite continents when
0:40 did you first start believing in God and
0:42 what was that like for you and what was
0:44 your prayer life like at the age of
0:46 reason or just before and after I can’t
0:50 say I can pinpoint the moment that I
0:52 believed in God I think it was something
0:54 that I always believed in I suppose I
0:56 haven’t really had a moment in which
0:58 I’ve questioned God’s existence from my
1:00 earliest memories that I can recall as
1:02 far as the household goes as time went
1:06 on the family rosary took on more
1:08 members as there were more siblings but
1:11 in the beginning as the oldest it was
1:13 just my my parents and myself and we
1:16 definitely prayed before meals we prayed
1:18 in the morning we prayed an evening
1:20 before I went to bed and as I got older
1:23 and I was able to say the Rosary that I
1:25 was I was included in that but we went
1:29 to we went to church not just on Sundays
1:31 but sometimes on Saturdays or on weekday
1:33 evenings I was the youngest altar server
1:36 permitted I was six when I was ultra
1:39 serving as an altar boy there in
1:41 Singapore and it’s a very safe country
1:43 so if you can imagine a six year old
1:45 getting on a subway and taking the
1:48 30-minute ride to serve a Monday evening
1:50 Mass that was a little bit of what my my
1:53 life was like in Singapore early on Wow
1:56 so you were raised in Singapore until I
1:59 was nine yes okay
2:01 are you F Nikoli Singaporean yes
2:03 although keep in mind Singapore has four
2:06 national languages and a 70% ethnically
2:08 Chinese so from my mother’s side who’s
2:10 who’s Chinese born in Singapore
2:13 from before her family they were all
2:14 born in mainland China so I’m half
2:17 ethnically Chinese the other half my
2:19 father is American and our bloodlines go
2:22 back to England Ireland and Alsace can
2:25 you talk a little bit I know that you
2:26 kept the faith your whole life and that
2:28 that’s amazing that’s a real grace right
2:30 but can you talk a little bit about some
2:33 of the low points where maybe you
2:34 doubted maybe you were scared maybe you
2:36 were angry at God maybe you you started
2:40 to drift a little bit into sin or at
2:43 least dabbled with temptation can you
2:45 talk a little bit about the dark years I
2:47 think probably your greatest challenges
2:50 are faced in your teenage years do you
2:53 have your your body’s changing your find
2:56 out that girls are not made out of
2:57 spiders anymore and things other than
3:00 Legos get your attention I think for me
3:03 that the challenge was that was
3:06 happening at the same time that I’ve
3:08 discovered the disjunction between
3:10 church teaching and ecumenical councils
3:14 prior to vatican ii and and after and so
3:18 it was a confusing time for me not so
3:23 much in the way of let’s say doubting
3:24 God being angry at God going into in
3:27 great sin but rather just a level of
3:30 confusion with no real answers I was at
3:33 a boarding school with a very
3:35 conservative Novus Ordo group the norm
3:38 routines at st. Michael’s a be down in
3:40 Silverado California and I’ve got a lot
3:42 of time for them insofar as they really
3:45 radicalized me in my Catholicism
3:49 I went from your usual Catholic whatever
3:53 that means to someone who really was
3:56 interested in church history the
3:58 council’s liturgy rubrics everything
4:02 around ceremonies and it was because
4:04 they inculcated that for me at the same
4:06 time two years after I started with them
4:10 I started to read books about what had
4:14 happened in Vatican 2 and I was I was
4:16 really stuck because here I had been
4:19 given this formation from these
4:21 conservative notice Ordos and yet here I
4:23 was reading what Pius tonight
4:25 temp I see 11 paisa 12 Vatican 1 council
4:29 florins Council of Trent had said and
4:31 I’m having to somewhat look in
4:33 opposition I Catholic shouldn’t be put
4:37 in the position where he or she is
4:39 trying to figure out well is this Pope
4:41 correct or is this Pope correct that
4:44 that’s highly irregular so I think it
4:46 was a dark time there’s a particular
4:49 episode I often share in which I was one
4:51 of you know the seven people going to a
4:53 weekday novus ordo at my local parish I
4:56 was the youngest person by at least 40
4:58 years and going up to communion I would
5:02 just do a quick genuflection and receive
5:05 on the tongue and one day after mass
5:08 father Doug who had a ponytail took the
5:12 time to say some people are using an
5:14 outdated posture to receive Communion
5:16 and I can’t remember exactly what he
5:18 said because at this point my ears
5:19 started throbbing like oh my good oh my
5:21 goodness is father gonna call me out in
5:22 front of the entire congregation during
5:24 Mass and he’s and so these people are
5:26 you know you’re simply being disobedient
5:28 rude disrespectful etc nice thinking to
5:31 myself how is this possible and as
5:34 everyone dispersed after mass I held
5:37 myself together as long as I couldn’t I
5:38 started crying right there in the pew
5:41 asking how was it possible that
5:44 genuflecting to receive Communion is
5:46 disrespectful for that same father Doug
5:49 would tell me in the confession that
5:51 what I was saying was not a sin like oh
5:53 don’t worry that’s not a sin anymore and
5:55 so the confusion of this person is
5:59 supposed to be representative the
6:00 Catholic Church and what Catholic
6:02 teaching tells me but he tells me that
6:05 Calvin teaching is not valid but that
6:07 doesn’t work in Catholicism and so when
6:09 you say confusing difficult challenging
6:11 it was more confusion than anything else
6:13 and not having anyone I could really
6:15 turn to because the conservative Norbert
6:18 Eames would tell me well that’s just how
6:20 people have interpreted the council you
6:22 know and they would give the narrative
6:24 of the imprisoned Pope and you know it’s
6:26 just the bad American bishops if he
6:29 could do what he really wanted to you
6:30 know with the Latin Mass everywhere and
6:32 and holiness everywhere which Pope was
6:35 that at the time that was jp2 probably
6:37 1996
6:39 so that was the beginning of a journey
6:41 not just for me but for my family
6:43 because my family had taken on some of
6:47 the radicalization that the Norbertine
6:49 said given me for example one of my
6:51 sister’s was an altar girl and after
6:53 coming back from st. Michael’s and
6:55 getting her to talk to some of the
6:56 fathers there she stopped and we all
7:00 started receiving Communion on the
7:01 tongue instead of communion in the hands
7:02 so eventually the reading and research
7:05 around vatican ii and the liturgy led me
7:09 to the traditional Latin Mass and at the
7:13 time in Orange County
7:14 there was a so called in deled Mass
7:17 being offered by a priest who was
7:20 ordained in the old times and in the old
7:22 way his name was father Daniel Johnson
7:24 and father Johnson offered the weekly
7:27 indulge Mass at st. Mary’s by the sea
7:30 down in Huntington Beach California and
7:33 I remember going and I had spent so much
7:35 time reading the traditional mass text
7:39 and just falling in love with it that I
7:41 asked to serve so for my very first
7:44 traditional Mass I didn’t sit in the pew
7:47 I went surd Mass now I made a couple
7:50 mistakes in reciting the text at the
7:52 appropriate times but I was so crazy for
7:56 this mass that that’s what I wanted to
7:58 do I wanted to serve so my very first
7:59 mass I was actually next to the priest
8:02 serving and that was pretty much it for
8:05 me I that there was this this mass that
8:08 had been taken from me even though I had
8:10 never known that it had been taken from
8:12 me and that even my conservative Novus
8:15 Ordo Norbert Eames had hidden from me as
8:17 well and it started the chain of
8:19 questioning with them and lots of
8:21 excuses mostly about how you have to
8:23 have permission and it’s a special thing
8:24 and my family who at the time we had
8:28 always been looking for the most
8:30 conservative Novus Ordo Church for us to
8:32 go to they said okay well we’ll go to
8:34 this Latin Mass thing my father was
8:36 nostalgic for it my mom had heard of it
8:39 my sister had no clue they were 15 8 and
8:43 6 so they weren’t necessarily having
8:45 input into it they were just gonna go
8:47 wherever we took them and then
8:51 after about a three-month spell there
8:52 because I continued to keep reading and
8:55 overcome objections I decided to go to
8:58 Mass with the Society of Saint Pius
9:00 attend up in Arcadia California and that
9:04 was a three-month struggle to bring my
9:06 mother along because there’s a struggle
9:08 about are they schismatic are the
9:10 excommunicated what does this mean and
9:12 it meant that I had to go and study
9:14 canon law which I had never done before
9:16 and explained that if one person is
9:20 excommunicated it doesn’t excommunicate
9:22 people who attend the mass of people in
9:25 that congregation so I didn’t know any
9:28 of that before I had to investigate it
9:30 but after much persuasion my mom came
9:33 along and that was that was pretty much
9:35 where our family stayed for a long time
9:38 which you could say the Society of Saint
9:40 Pius a tenth position that the
9:43 traditional mass and sacraments is the
9:45 only way to go there in an irregular
9:47 situation with what they consider to be
9:50 the authorities of the Catholic Church
9:52 and we just have to wait until something
9:54 happens for the best but in the meantime
9:57 we are going to hold on to these things
9:58 that’s their position but are you firmly
10:01 in the sspx camp no no and my journey
10:03 out of the SSPX into my current position
10:06 started in 2007-2008 somewhere along
10:09 there and I had started to write more
10:11 and one of the pitches I gave to Michael
10:14 math who runs a newspaper called the
10:16 remnant in the United States this and
10:18 hey there’s a SSPX bishop coming to
10:21 California student two new confirmations
10:23 I could do a sit-down interview with him
10:25 you don’t have to pay me the stipend if
10:28 you allow me to simultaneously publish
10:30 on my own website and he said okay I’m
10:34 done
10:34 so I interviewed Bishop tissie aid to
10:37 Mallory and Geremi interview and I was
10:42 recording on audio that’s how I was
10:45 keeping track of it he said you haven’t
10:47 asked the important questions and I said
10:50 I’m sorry your excellency which
10:52 questions he said for example that
10:54 benedict xvi is a heretic and that he
10:57 continues to profess heresies and i’m
11:00 somewhat dumbstruck here so this is one
11:03 of the four bishop
11:04 that archbishop lefebvre crated he’s
11:07 considered the most intellectual among
11:10 before he’s got the theological chops
11:11 among the four of them he uses the term
11:14 heretic to refer to benedict xvi
11:16 anywhere between 13 and 18 times and i
11:21 go home that night i transcribed the
11:23 audio and he’s off to war again the next
11:26 day i send him a fax be printout he then
11:31 marks it up and sent it back to me
11:33 because i didn’t want to publish
11:33 anything without his consent because I
11:35 wanted cover for myself he had crossed
11:38 out heretic in every instance and
11:41 changed it to professed heresies now at
11:46 the time I thought well maybe this is
11:48 some theological difference but I
11:50 realized rather quickly that there is no
11:52 legal or actual difference between being
11:54 a professor of heresies and heretic
11:56 right this was just a word trick that he
12:00 used to make the language sound less
12:02 harsh and indefinite if someone has
12:05 professed heresies it doesn’t mean they
12:07 still profess heresies however in the
12:09 text himself he said he still professes
12:12 them he has not retracted them so the
12:16 interview comes out and is a blockbuster
12:18 and it gets the attention of people like
12:21 Bishop Williamson who reaches out to
12:23 contact me it gets me the ire of the
12:25 SSPX United States District who said you
12:28 know where did you get permission and
12:29 then I showed them bishop to see a
12:32 signature on the fax that I got back and
12:34 they got real quiet real quickly and I
12:36 think they went on to scold him instead
12:38 of me
12:38 no one in the SSPX hierarchy had ever
12:40 used this kind of language to refer to
12:43 to some nonsense artificial efef
12:45 language regarding me a CC event saying
12:48 that this was this was now apostasy this
12:51 was terrible thing so it was considered
12:54 a big deal in a number of quarters and
12:56 it got me a lot of attention it got me
12:59 the ability to write for the angeles
13:01 magazine and got me more access because
13:04 i had simply popped up out of nowhere i
13:07 was this person who self-appointed
13:09 journalist to go around asking questions
13:11 of clergy and that became an avocation
13:14 of sorts i would go around and interview
13:18 clergy asking them questions that I had
13:21 I really didn’t care in a certain sense
13:23 if other people had these questions I
13:25 had these questions and I and it turned
13:27 out that a lot of people had the same
13:28 questions but having someone called who
13:34 I considered to be the Vicar Jesus
13:36 Christ on earth heretic was a major
13:38 change for me and so what that led me to
13:41 ask is is it possible that this man is
13:45 not the Pope and what does the church
13:47 teach about heretics holding the office
13:49 of the papacy and I tracked down Combe
13:52 ex apostolate owes officio which is a
13:54 bull written by Paul 2/4 Paul the fourth
13:57 foresaw a possibility of a heretic being
14:00 elected and he puts specific safeguards
14:03 in place to make sure that this is not
14:06 possible legally speaking which century
14:08 did he write let’s say mid 1500s and so
14:12 the fact that a pope could foresee the
14:15 possibility of a heretic sneaking in to
14:18 a a Conclave and being elected and him
14:22 having to put out a papal bull saying
14:24 here’s how he wouldn’t be Pope because
14:26 it’s impossible for a heretic to be Pope
14:28 because he who is not of the body cannot
14:30 be the head channeling Saint Robert
14:32 Bellarmine that means that he foresaw
14:34 such a possibility and he guarded
14:36 against it so that established for me oh
14:39 the church has already said it hurts it
14:40 can’t be Pope cool and then I had to say
14:43 well how is it possible that these men
14:45 act counter to our religion and are
14:47 still the so called heads of the
14:49 religion and you would also hear phrases
14:50 from SSPX
14:52 type saying the conciliar Church and I
14:55 got one of the priests to say on the
14:57 record that betting the 16th is the head
15:00 of the conciliar Church and the head of
15:02 the Catholic Church which is also a
15:03 heresy right there’s no way for you to
15:05 be the head of two different churches I
15:06 don’t even know what that means but this
15:08 was this this sort of mixed up theology
15:10 this idea that someone can be the head
15:12 of some church that you totally reject
15:13 but also ticularly the head of the
15:15 Catholic Church which you accept so I
15:18 very much consider the SPX position me
15:20 have your cake and eat it too
15:22 or have your pope and eat him too
15:24 position so I came to reject it but that
15:28 meant more canon law more theology more
15:30 studying what theologians have said
15:32 these issues and realizing okay these
15:36 people can’t possibly the Pope’s because
15:38 they are heretics heretics cannot accede
15:40 to the papacy so we’re in an interregnum
15:42 and that’s a dreadful feeling as a
15:46 Catholic because as Catholics we have a
15:48 gravitational pull towards the only
15:51 father towards all things right I live
15:53 in Europe now I’ve been to Rome three or
15:55 four times since I lived there as a
15:56 student in the year 2000 and what’s
16:00 different for me now as opposed to when
16:02 I was a Novus Ordo visiting Rome is I
16:04 just had this sort of sad emptiness when
16:06 I go to these beautiful churches of
16:09 Christendom that I know that they’re
16:11 occupied by invaders who are actively
16:14 working against the Catholic faith and I
16:16 simply when I’m there I say a quiet
16:18 prayer that that one day if we deserve
16:21 it our Lord will set things right but
16:23 for the moment this is very much what we
16:25 deserve are there any scent of accantus
16:27 priests bishops and Cardinals close to
16:29 the Pope well there are no ideas could
16:32 be secret as eccentric gothis Cardinals
16:34 but no they’re the set of acontece
16:37 clergy are fairly dispersed worldwide
16:40 and if you think about it logically
16:43 there is no principle of unity because
16:45 set of the concepts argued that the Pope
16:47 is the principle of unity therefore if
16:50 there is no Pope there’s no subordinate
16:53 hierarchy and weighty well the four
16:55 marks will always indicate the true
16:58 church right what would you say about
17:00 that and what would you say about the
17:01 three attributes of authority and fie
17:03 ability and in defect ability are they
17:05 also off the table no obviously you
17:07 cannot say you can’t pick and choose
17:09 Catholic teachings but the idea the
17:10 visibility of the church is something I
17:12 think we’re influenced by as moderns
17:13 because we we have the Internet
17:15 we have video we have news we have
17:17 access to things but where was the
17:18 visibility of the church in the
17:19 catacombs
17:20 I mean Pope’s were getting killed left
17:22 and right nobody knew who the Pope was
17:24 at the time nobody knew where the church
17:26 was so I think the idea of quote/unquote
17:28 visibility literally is very different
17:32 from the Church teaching on visibility
17:34 miscibility doesn’t mean he’s available
17:36 on TV or you know who he is you think of
17:39 the Japanese Catholics who are without
17:40 priests for 200 years they were born
17:43 baptized lived and died their lives they
17:45 didn’t know who the
17:45 was they didn’t know where the church
17:47 was they had no priests but for them the
17:50 church was still visible because they
17:51 have the faith the visibility of the
17:53 church resides in those who have the
17:55 faith not necessarily in a living
17:57 hierarchy to me given time keep in mind
17:59 every time do we have a pope die all
18:01 Catholics around the world have no pope
18:02 it doesn’t mean that church is invisible
18:04 no but the church government is always
18:06 intact that’s the point even if you’re
18:08 in the deepest jungle and unaware of who
18:10 and where that government is there is a
18:12 government always well there’s there’s a
18:15 principle of government I mean the
18:16 church doesn’t guarantee that all the
18:18 bishops couldn’t get wiped out in fact
18:19 Pius the 12th had written up plans for
18:22 what happens when something like because
18:24 they were talking about nuclear bombs
18:25 and that kind of thing if they were all
18:27 assembled what would happen so the
18:29 church doesn’t guarantee that all the
18:30 bishops couldn’t be killed in the idea
18:32 of the visibility of the church is that
18:33 we will have it now what makes that up
18:38 is the faithful and the clergy the
18:42 clergy in their differing degrees
18:43 whether they’re some deacons deacons
18:45 priests bishops and obviously Pope’s but
18:50 whether a Pope is available at any given
18:53 time doesn’t speak to whether the church
18:55 is visible or there is church government
18:57 because technically speaking church
18:58 government grinds to a halt when the
19:00 Pope dies because there is no ordinary
19:02 jurisdiction in place that’s not what
19:04 the church teaches the church teaches
19:06 the the whole body of the church and
19:08 that hierarchy carries on business as
19:10 usual during the interregnum well no
19:13 it’s not it’s not quite business as
19:15 usual a no interruption in the church
19:16 that’s what the Church teaches
19:18 of course there’s interruption insofar
19:20 well when you say there’s no
19:21 interruption obviously people are still
19:22 getting baptized people are still being
19:24 ordained etc Church doesn’t disappear
19:27 and reappear when a pope is elected
19:28 right the church is there the government
19:31 is there constantly and always if you
19:33 disagree I’d love to hear your arguments
19:35 I’m not saying that the church appears
19:37 and disappears in fact I’ve been arguing
19:39 directly against that you ask what the
19:41 visibility of the church was and they
19:43 said well the church is invisible
19:44 whether there’s a pope around or not but
19:46 the key point for me is government there
19:48 is a government during all the
19:50 interregnum I was an atheist for my
19:53 whole adult life for 25 years a staunch
19:56 enemy of Christianity in general in the
19:59 Catholic
19:59 Church in particular and one of my
20:01 favorite things to mock and ridicule
20:03 besides the Bible was the history of the
20:05 papacy and I knew the dark and horrible
20:09 and messy and ugly history of the papacy
20:13 in the council’s I knew it
20:14 and I was reveling in the disgusting
20:18 process by which they make the sausage
20:21 so when I entered into the Catholic
20:23 Church that was not an issue for me
20:25 distinguishing the baby from the
20:27 bathwater it seems to me that you have a
20:29 naive notion of the church where you
20:31 think that the Pope’s were all holy up
20:33 until John the 23rd I’ve never said that
20:36 not the entire time we’ve been
20:37 discussing I’ve never brought up the
20:39 personal morality of the Pope’s not once
20:41 but you really don’t think that I could
20:44 find you a pope that was a material
20:46 heretic you can go and do whatever you’d
20:47 like I have the evidence that a pope has
20:50 issued a bull preventing a heretic from
20:52 a seeding to the office it would also
20:54 seem to make sense
20:55 if since the gates of Hell will not
20:57 prevail against the Catholic Church and
20:58 this is a promise given to us by our
21:00 Lord that it would be impossible for a
21:03 heretic to become the head of the
21:05 Catholic Church and a st. Rob element
21:07 clearly states he who is not of the body
21:10 cannot be the head so this idea that yes
21:13 there could have been a heretic ate it’s
21:14 not true it’s just an assertion on your
21:17 part but secondly it’s not possible by
21:19 Catholic teaching it wasn’t an assertion
21:22 it was a question do you think that the
21:24 worst Pope’s in history were not
21:27 Material heretics no I don’t and I think
21:30 it was a question of a personal
21:31 immorality it was not a question of
21:34 deviancy from the Catholic faith so your
21:36 firm belief is that every single Pope up
21:39 until John the 23rd was fully Catholic
21:42 in what they believed in terms of
21:43 doctrine we don’t have any evidence
21:45 otherwise and if you have evidence I
21:48 would love to see it I don’t have
21:49 evidence I just have a very gritty per
21:53 view on some of those medieval popes oh
21:55 yeah and absolutely there was some I
21:57 mean the Borgias all of that nothing
22:00 nice about it however the idea again of
22:03 personal morality because this speaks to
22:05 us as Catholics we’re all sinners
22:07 the Pope’s not exempt from that there’s
22:09 a question of personal moral turpitude
22:12 versus
22:13 personal doctrinal deviancy and there’s
22:16 no evidence to believe that it also
22:19 would fly in the face of Catholic
22:21 teaching and common sense to believe
22:22 that a heretic could be the head of the
22:23 Catholic Church just if you don’t mind
22:26 could you tell me why I should consider
22:29 our print Pope a heretic well I can talk
22:34 about Francis but I want to set the
22:36 stage for talking about Francis because
22:37 it necessarily dovetails into Francis
22:40 Benedict jp2 jp1 Paul the sixth John the
22:42 23rd so the question all revolves around
22:45 vatican ii is vatican ii catholic
22:49 teaching or is it not if it is then my
22:53 position is not tenable and if vatican
22:56 ii is not catholic teaching your
22:58 position is not tenable so let’s look at
23:00 the documents of vatican ii and examine
23:03 them against what the Church teaches and
23:05 we look at me find in vatican ii all
23:09 sorts of problems i think the challenge
23:11 is i had spent my entire life in the
23:15 novus ordo church and i’d never read a
23:16 single document of Vatican 2 and still I
23:18 started investigating this stuff and
23:20 when I did I was horrified at what I
23:23 read partially because I had been
23:25 radicalized by the Norbert Eames as to
23:26 what Catholic teaching was and I read
23:29 what it said about a human ISM in direct
23:32 contradiction to Pope Pius 9th and more
23:34 Tahlia money most I would read stuff
23:36 about collegiality which is a completely
23:38 opposed to the Council of Trent I would
23:40 read things on religious liberty again
23:42 opposed to pope pius xi cause Prima’s
23:44 when i cite these papal documents 9.5
23:49 out of every 10 Novus Ordo so they run
23:52 into and I guess the point 5 would be
23:53 any hobbits they’ve never heard of these
23:56 encyclicals even though they’re not that
23:58 old and secondly they don’t know what
24:01 those encyclicals say sometimes –
24:03 they’re poisoned by Americanism this
24:07 idea that separation of church and state
24:09 is a positive good when it’s been
24:11 condemned by the church specifically by
24:13 leo xiii so Vatican 2 presents
24:16 substantial departures from the Catholic
24:17 faith therefore it cannot be considered
24:19 Catholic therefore my position I have
24:21 found contradictions among
24:23 Bulls and cyclicals pre-1950 8 can you
24:27 give me an example of that yeah I can
24:29 find one and send it to you I don’t have
24:30 it other to my time my question is if
24:32 you said that papal bulls or encyclicals
24:35 have contradicted themselves in the past
24:37 why wouldn’t this bother you
24:38 this is this is a violation of Christ’s
24:40 promise because there’s a difference
24:42 between God’s eternal and unchanging
24:45 truth and the very messy human affairs
24:50 that permeate the church here on earth
24:53 the church in purgatory is being
24:55 cleansed in the church in heaven is
24:57 already pure but here below you have to
24:59 understand that there’s a lot of
25:00 give-and-take I could be reading the
25:03 writings of a freemason when I read
25:04 official documents of the church I don’t
25:06 know
25:07 right you do acknowledge that there has
25:09 always been infiltration in the Catholic
25:11 Church right of course this is not
25:12 neatly packaged away like oh the dirty
25:14 parts are clearly indicated in red and
25:17 all the holy unchanging truths or God or
25:19 in black yes but you’re talking about
25:21 individual books or individual people
25:24 who have either been identified or not
25:25 been identified you’re not talking about
25:26 the church in an ecumenical council
25:28 teaching proposing things for the entire
25:30 world so the idea that disciplines and
25:34 can be changed and there’s messy parts
25:36 absolutely there can be but that doesn’t
25:37 have anything to do with doctrine but
25:39 what I want from you is evidence that
25:42 there’s a contradiction between the
25:45 dogmatic teachings of post Vatican 2
25:47 Church this phony Church as you would
25:50 see it and the true church which was I
25:54 guess publicly visible before 1958 and
25:58 is now underground or something like
25:59 that
25:59 no it’s still visible again in the
26:01 people on the hierarchy of those who who
26:04 are Catholic
26:04 so the sort of lay up softball here
26:07 would be religious liberty do you know
26:08 what the church is teaching on religious
26:10 liberty is no the only religion that has
26:13 a right to exist is the Catholic
26:17 religion that is given the ability to
26:19 publicly exist any other religion may be
26:22 tolerated for the public good because of
26:26 political conditions in the country
26:28 because of certain cultural things but
26:30 none of those religions have the same
26:32 rights as the Catholic Church in dignity
26:35 for money which is the
26:37 contentious document around the council
26:39 this is directly contradicted now what
26:41 you have to look at and say is well
26:43 digging talking to money is the only
26:44 document ever to contradict anything
26:47 Pryor said in the Catholic Church on
26:50 this so do I believe this one document
26:53 from this one council or 1960 years of
26:57 Catholic teachings that seems to be
27:00 fairly obvious and it’s not simply one
27:01 thing we can go into the document
27:03 liturgy sacrosanct and Concilium we can
27:05 go into the mass itself as promulgated
27:08 1969 when the first edition of the
27:11 missile came out it had a heretic all
27:13 definition of the mass inside the
27:15 preface and Paul the six had to issue a
27:18 second edition right away and he had to
27:20 suppress the first editions with an
27:22 Orthodox definition and mass so you have
27:26 the teachings on religious liberty on
27:28 humanism on collegiality you have the
27:31 mass itself then citizen we’ve had the
27:34 1983 code of canon law we’ve had the
27:37 john paul ii catechism of the catholic
27:39 church all of which have teachings that
27:42 are directly in contradiction and so
27:44 people like benedict xvi have used the
27:47 term hermeneutic of continuity in this
27:50 idea of how to how does the catholic
27:52 hold these two oppositional ideas in
27:54 line that you do have a right to profess
27:57 a false religion and you don’t have a
27:59 right the nice thing about catholicism
28:01 is you don’t have to do stuff like that
28:02 two plus two equals four the eucharist
28:05 is the body of christ the Pope is the
28:06 Pope it’s quite simple Catholicism as
28:09 the post Vatican two church said that
28:11 the real presence is not the case well I
28:14 mean if we want to talk about how they
28:16 treat it that’s not what I’m asking I’m
28:18 asking has the church denied the real
28:21 presence there has been a substantial
28:22 change in the text of the mass to
28:25 question the validity of the
28:26 consecration of the Novus Ordo mass yes
28:29 you question it but I don’t question it
28:31 why should I question the validity of
28:33 the consecration well I can’t expect you
28:36 to doubt something you haven’t studied
28:38 yeah yeah I’m just looking for clues and
28:40 tips and little starting points where I
28:42 can find out if I belong to a false
28:44 religion sure so if you if you take a
28:46 look at the words of consecration within
28:50 the Nova
28:50 Sordo they are set in a narrative tone
28:53 if you look at how the masa said not
28:55 just in the Roman Rite but in every
28:57 other Rite of the church the Chaldean
28:59 right the Coptic right the Armenian
29:01 right whatever Catholic branches exist
29:04 when you get to the words of
29:06 consecration they are set apart in bold
29:08 from the narrative and it’s been
29:11 clarified at church DT not just in Trent
29:13 but elsewhere that if it’s given in a
29:15 narrative it’s this idea of a story and
29:18 we’re all around here to have sort of
29:19 some grape juice and bread but the idea
29:22 of set apart words of consecration are
29:25 part of what lead to validity so in in
29:28 the Catholic Mass it says Hoke estate in
29:31 corpus mam’s and this is my body those
29:33 are the words of consecration nothing
29:35 else are the words of consecration I
29:37 don’t understand what you said about the
29:39 words of consecration could you just
29:41 rephrase that or clarify that for me
29:42 this is my body right that’s it but
29:45 that’s not what it is in the Novus Ordo
29:46 sure it is no in the Novus Ordo this is
29:49 my body which has been given up for you
29:51 it’s Uncas then even corpus meum called
29:52 Provo bestride 8 or so they added some
29:55 words that were not there before and
29:56 it’s part of a narrative it’s not said
29:59 in a different tone of voice and again
30:01 the church has done all this before for
30:03 a purpose you can make changes as a pope
30:06 the Pope has the ability to change the
30:07 mass that’s not impossible but the
30:10 question is are the changes in
30:12 validating and what does that say if
30:14 they are you also have a change in the
30:17 text of our Lord right so in English and
30:20 Benedick change this so if he hadn’t
30:23 changed it it wouldn’t be a concern but
30:25 he did change it which says that it must
30:27 have been a concern which was a
30:28 mistranslation of promotes into for all
30:31 but this has been taught specifically by
30:34 st. Thomas and another church why is it
30:36 for many are you clear on why it’s for
30:39 many and not for all in the words of
30:40 consecration apart from the fact that
30:42 our Lord said for many he didn’t say for
30:44 all he died for all and many take
30:47 advantage of that opportunity
30:48 right that’s the suddenly wants I think
30:51 that said if I can’t just get tripped up
30:53 on it it’s not a subtle nuance it’s a
30:55 church teaching that Christ did not die
30:57 for all insofar as there are some who
30:59 would reject him and so Christ has not
31:00 died for those people it’s for many and
31:03 again
31:03 you’re talking about changing the words
31:06 of our Lord and you’re talking about a
31:07 mistranslation from the Latin which is
31:09 the official text anyway so I don’t care
31:11 what the English says the Latin says
31:13 promote is in the Novus Ordo how do you
31:16 translate how do you translate promotes
31:18 into for all I don’t go to mass in
31:20 English so I don’t hear what you’re
31:22 hearing I go to mass in Italian and I
31:24 hear promote this for the many so I
31:26 don’t see how that’s relevant and the
31:28 church is Jesus Christ right so to argue
31:31 with the church is to argue with Jesus
31:33 Christ so it’s kind of like the Seventh
31:34 day Adventists who say well look
31:35 obviously the Sabbath was on Saturday
31:37 there for the Catholic Church is the
31:38 Whore of Babylon right you have to trust
31:42 Jesus Christ and to second-guess Jesus
31:44 Christ I think is a big mistake to put
31:46 it mildly
31:47 oh no I I’m with you you you can’t
31:49 second-guess the church and you can’t
31:50 second-guess Jesus Christ the question
31:51 is are these people two representatives
31:52 of the church and that’s a simple
31:54 question
31:54 would the real Catholic Church please
31:56 stand up well it’s certainly not a man
31:59 who says there is no Catholic God who
32:01 said that Francis what did he mean by
32:04 that he was being asked about how
32:05 atheists couldn’t go to heaven and he
32:07 talked today you know what kind of God
32:09 there is and his response was there is
32:11 no Catholic God well I don’t believe
32:12 that God is good right because God is
32:15 beyond good this is the via negativa so
32:17 you can choose to interpret the via
32:20 negativa as a denial of God’s goodness
32:21 but if you’re honest you’ll say well
32:23 they’re saying that he’s beyond good and
32:26 that’s not what he said you know what
32:27 I’m doing is I’m giving the benefit of
32:28 doubt to the Vicar of Christ on earth
32:30 because he’s the visible head of the
32:32 church who you consider to be the Vicar
32:35 Jews yes yeah this is the whole point of
32:36 our discussion and to take every
32:38 opportunity to interpret things in a way
32:41 that maligned our Pope’s faith I think
32:44 is uncharitable to say the least I’m not
32:47 saying that’s what you do but I think
32:48 that there are a lot of critics that are
32:51 on the right politically that hate Pope
32:53 Francis because he appears to be some
32:56 sort of progressive so are they all
32:58 delusional or are they part of the media
33:00 conspiracy against Francis or might
33:02 there be a problem with Francis there is
33:05 a problem with Francis in as much as
33:06 he’s a sinner in need of a savior but
33:09 he’s not he is not possible he’s a
33:10 heretic although you maintain that it’s
33:12 possible that one of the Pope’s in the
33:14 past was a Material heretic I need to
33:16 look into that
33:17 I prefer to think that no Pope can be a
33:19 heretic I prefer to think it’s not a
33:21 matter of your preference of thinking
33:22 it’s not possible but I need to think
33:25 about it and conform myself to Christ
33:27 and this church not the other way around
33:28 so I won’t force the church to conform
33:31 to my opinion I will find out what I
33:34 need to believe about heresy in the
33:36 papacy but as it is right now I can see
33:38 possibilities where you can have a
33:40 material heretic prevented from teaching
33:42 error concerning faith in morals and
33:44 that wouldn’t disturb me in the
33:45 slightest now I’d also like your point
33:48 of view where it’s just impossible to be
33:51 the head when you’re not part of the
33:52 body that makes more sense to me the
33:54 problem is that I’ve read the history of
33:56 the Pope’s and I’ve had a very low
33:58 opinion of many of them not all of them
34:01 but a handful so I need to reconcile
34:03 that somehow if I can reconcile it then
34:06 certainly I can reconcile Francis but
34:08 you’re talking about two different
34:09 things personally morality as distinct
34:12 from doctrinal infidelity so a bishop
34:15 your bishop whoever might be he’ll tell
34:18 you this is what the Catholic Church
34:19 teaches it may be privately he’s sinning
34:21 it doesn’t invalidate what the Catholic
34:24 Church teaches right so by the same
34:25 token Alexander the sixth and people
34:28 like him could have been horribly
34:29 personally immoral and it’s a shame for
34:31 all of us as Catholics that that
34:32 happened but it doesn’t change the fact
34:34 that he never issued any heretical or
34:36 questionable statements didn’t leave any
34:38 of the right-wing political commentators
34:40 of the time to question him can someone
34:43 who is not of the body be the heads no
34:45 as a doctor of the church has said no
34:47 that’s not possible but secondly what
34:50 does this have to do with Vatican two
34:52 the question is is Vatican 2 Catholic
34:54 teaching if it is my position is not
34:56 tenable if Vatican 2 is not Catholic
34:58 teaching your position is not tenable so
35:00 the question from I would pose to your
35:02 listeners into yourself and what I post
35:04 myself originally is what does Vatican 2
35:06 teach well you would only know if you
35:08 read what American to wrote so which
35:10 most Catholics have not and that’s okay
35:11 they’re long and boring and horrible but
35:14 you you you do need to read them and
35:16 then compare them with texts written by
35:18 previous popes that directly contradict
35:21 it and then ask yourself how is this
35:24 possible and the Catholic answer is it’s
35:25 not it’s not possible for Catholic
35:27 teaching to be contradictory so how do I
35:29 result it well
35:31 this must not be a Catholic council and
35:34 we’ve had pseudo synod’s in the past
35:36 we’ve had anti-popes in church history
35:38 so I just don’t believe the period of
35:40 anti-popes have ended if you’ve studied
35:42 the Pope’s and you’ve studied church
35:44 history you know we’ve had I think 57 or
35:46 60 anti-popes it’s been a long time
35:48 since we’ve had any but I would have to
35:51 believe that they’ve ended have we ever
35:53 had a string of them for 60 years
35:54 running no no we haven’t we have had a
35:57 period in which we we didn’t have one
36:00 for three and a half years and I think
36:01 the only reason was the attackee
36:03 italians removed the roof tiles of the
36:06 house and started throwing things at the
36:08 cardinals and i think they finally made
36:10 up their mind but again the church was
36:12 without a pope for for three and a half
36:13 years during that time period there was
36:15 also the Great Western schism which
36:16 happened related to the country that I
36:18 live in now in which people were born
36:21 lived and died with two bishops in their
36:24 diocese one who was tied to the Avignon
36:27 papacy and one who was tied to the other
36:29 claimant and so what where was the
36:31 visibility of the church for them yeah
36:33 how was that resolved the church
36:35 resolved it by having those other ones
36:37 go away and March and the fifth become
36:39 the Pope those people lived and died
36:41 with confusion regarding the situation
36:44 you had st. Vincent Ferrer a doctor the
36:47 church backing one claim in st.
36:49 Catherine of Siena backing another times
36:52 were confusing but it doesn’t mean that
36:54 the visibility Church was interrupted to
36:57 your point
36:58 so whether there’s no pope or whether
37:00 there’s multiple claimants or whether
37:01 those anti-popes the church government
37:03 and the church itself are unaffected
37:05 broadly the church rules the church
37:07 continues yeah I’m very happy if you
37:10 belong to the true Catholic Church and I
37:12 belong to a false Church that’s been
37:14 taken over by Freemasons or whatever it
37:15 is if that’s the case I’m happy to
37:17 accept it I just don’t happen to believe
37:20 that and the reason I don’t believe it
37:21 is because I don’t see anything that you
37:24 said that really strikes at the heart of
37:26 dogma you’ve hinted that maybe there’s
37:29 something to do with religious liberty
37:31 is there a quick way for me to verify
37:33 that that is an established dogma and is
37:36 there a quick way for me to verify that
37:37 post Vatican – it was dogmatically
37:40 defined in contradiction you are not as
37:43 a Catholic
37:44 only enjoying to believe the things that
37:46 are only dogmas I know that you’re also
37:48 enjoined to believe things that are
37:49 doctrines etc yeah so it doesn’t need to
37:52 necessarily have been a defiant dogma
37:54 but it has been common Catholic teaching
37:56 as outlined by previous papal
37:58 encyclicals and by Magisterial teaching
38:01 we didn’t really see it until after the
38:04 Peace of Westphalia because it wasn’t an
38:06 issue because there wasn’t any other
38:08 religions other than the Catholic Church
38:09 within Europe
38:10 I’m surrounded by liberal people and a
38:13 lot of them are ostensibly Catholic and
38:15 they’re pro-choice that pro-gamers
38:16 you’re pro lumens ordination and they
38:18 consider themselves Catholic I don’t
38:20 hold on it can ask you why you don’t
38:22 because that’s not where the church
38:23 teachers correct they don’t become non
38:25 Catholic based on your opinion they are
38:27 non Catholic because they don’t accept
38:29 you it’s all about Jesus Christ who is
38:31 God incarnate so on the other extreme we
38:35 have have people that are maybe more on
38:38 the right and who are hardcore
38:41 traditionalists and they say that unless
38:45 you stick to the old ways you’re part of
38:47 a false church now the way I like to
38:49 think about it is that the left is
38:51 looking to the future there’s actually a
38:52 critical Catholic movement called Future
38:54 Church I don’t know if you’ve heard of
38:56 it they’re looking to this future Church
38:58 where everything is rosy and the spirit
39:00 of the age is lived fully and embraced
39:01 by the church the rad treads I guess is
39:03 what they call the people on the right
39:05 they want to go to the Church of the
39:07 past but what I want to do is I want to
39:09 acknowledge the Church of the present
39:11 and follow and obey the Church of the
39:12 present warts and all so that’s kind of
39:15 my position in a nutshell oh and I think
39:17 that’s a neat position I think it’s true
39:18 on the left but I think it’s a
39:20 caricature of the right because when you
39:21 say old ways quote-unquote what does
39:24 that mean does that mean in sense what
39:26 it means is that you’re not listening to
39:28 the church today what you’re doing is
39:30 you’re harkening back to the good old
39:31 days
39:32 is there anyone further right than you
39:34 yes there are there are concluded people
39:37 who’ve elected their own Pope there’s a
39:39 schismatic heretical sects that I would
39:42 see as a comforting symptom that you’re
39:44 not the most radical no no I’m not again
39:50 this idea of the old ways like again
39:52 this is a pick-and-choose Catholicism
39:54 you you have to do what the church
39:56 teaches you have
39:57 do what the Holy Father asks my
39:59 fundamental disagreement with you is I
40:02 do not accept these people as the holy
40:04 father and I do not accept these
40:05 authorities as a church because they
40:07 profess a faith that is substantially
40:10 different from Catholicism as evidenced
40:12 by the documents and as evidenced by
40:14 Catholic teaching so as a quote unquote
40:17 Novus Ordo for most of my life I would
40:20 say there are plenty of people who like
40:22 yourself are not aware of Vatican twos
40:25 changes and do not know that they are in
40:28 opposition to what the Catholic Church
40:30 has always taught and understandably out
40:33 of your gravitational pull as all
40:36 Catholics should have to the Holy Father
40:38 if you think of him that way your mind
40:41 is entirely shaped by that and I totally
40:44 get that because I’ve been there that
40:45 was the beginning of the confusion how
40:47 is this possible how is this as the
40:49 Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth etc etc
40:51 but what cured this was research
40:54 conversation with priests and people
40:56 that I trusted and most importantly
40:58 prayer but is invincible ignorance a
41:00 real thing sure of course it is I mean I
41:02 didn’t I didn’t know about any of these
41:04 things I really did could I ask you a
41:06 favor to sort of try to find out quickly
41:08 and briefly if I believe anything that
41:11 is not Catholic okay sure
41:14 we’ve hit some of these teachings in
41:15 Vatican two on religious liberty that
41:17 you have a right to practice a religion
41:19 that is not the Catholic faith publicly
41:21 that is forbidden by the church and it’s
41:23 outlined in the syllabus of errors by
41:25 prices ninth I plead ignorance on that
41:27 one I would need to do some research but
41:29 I’d like to think that people are
41:32 sincere when they’re worshipping God
41:35 even if they’re a Hindu we’re not
41:36 speaking to people’s internal sincerity
41:39 because that’s impossible we’re simply
41:40 talking about do they have a right to
41:42 exist publicly I think so I don’t want
41:46 to shut down the Hindu temple I
41:47 understand that but that’s contrary to
41:49 Catholic teaching as outlined and as I
41:53 said you have to be careful because I
41:54 think there’s a sentiment that as
41:56 Canadians and as Americans
41:58 we’ve been influenced by the way our
42:00 countries are but that’s contrary to the
42:03 Church’s teaching we have lots and lots
42:05 of evidence for that how would it be
42:07 policed that how would we shut down all
42:09 these polls no no there’s
42:10 not a question of shutting down because
42:12 the church says there are times in which
42:14 this must be tolerated since Protestants
42:16 and Catholics have had to live together
42:17 the church has had to deal with this
42:18 issue so it isn’t a new issue the
42:20 question is do they have a right
42:23 meaning can it be taken from them can a
42:26 mosque
42:26 be shut down the answer is yes of course
42:29 I can I often think about a sausage
42:31 factory you know you’re allowed a
42:32 certain number of rat hairs and fecal
42:34 matter I think that I can tolerate that
42:37 as long as the business owner is not
42:39 purposely injecting rat hair and fecal
42:42 matter into the sausages do you see the
42:43 difference sure but you realize
42:45 tolerance is a secondary virtue here to
42:47 the faith okay I just have one other
42:49 thing to say about religious liberty
42:50 which is that I tolerate my common cold
42:53 when I get a common cold I tolerate it
42:55 but I also attack it with medicine and I
42:57 go to the doctor right so I think that I
42:59 see a religion like that you’re not
43:01 really tolerating it because if you
43:03 could banish it with a flick of your
43:04 your thumb you would so you tolerating
43:07 it as a prisoner yeah like in the
43:08 classroom should Johnny get a gold star
43:10 for trying hard when he says two plus
43:12 two equals three no he shouldn’t right
43:14 and he should be sent to the principal’s
43:16 office if he tries to print up a banner
43:18 saying that right yeah so I think I’m
43:21 fully on board with your worldview on
43:23 that point which would make you opposed
43:25 to Vatican to teaching on religious
43:26 liberty allegedly according to you I
43:28 look into it
43:29 I believe what did the conversation was
43:30 read the document on it so I would just
43:32 challenge you to read it and and and
43:34 again I respect the fact that you are
43:35 looking at all this and what is the
43:37 document dignities kumon a thank you
43:40 next question for me you have anything
43:43 else you can ask me to find out if I’m
43:44 Catholic Catholic stress-test the 1983
43:49 code of canon law permits the reception
43:51 of communion by non Catholics under
43:53 certain circumstances this is forbidden
43:55 by the Catholic Church that sounds
43:56 offensive to me how did they just for
44:00 that well I mean I I don’t know if I’m
44:02 the best person to make the argument for
44:04 this order but they they say that a
44:07 Protestant expresses desire for it and
44:10 alignment with Catholic teaching on the
44:13 Eucharist that he or she oh yeah well
44:15 I’m perfectly happy if a Protestant is
44:17 Catholic I’m perfectly happy to have in
44:19 receiving community if you see everybody
44:20 there does say that
44:22 the cannon says the cannon says if a
44:25 Protestant I thought so obviously if
44:27 someone’s because it sort of paints the
44:30 scenario of like who is this person this
44:31 is a fictional person is like the guy in
44:33 the desert island so this is a
44:34 Protestant who’s asking to receive
44:36 Communion who believes the Catholic
44:37 teaching on the Eucharist I was like
44:39 well why isn’t he Catholic right you’re
44:41 you’re reading this canon it makes no
44:42 sense however that Canon is offensive to
44:44 Catholic teaching and the fact that it
44:46 exists in something promulgated by
44:48 ostensibly the Vicar of Jesus Christ on
44:50 earth in which he cannot err when giving
44:52 disciplines to the universal Church this
44:54 would be the same thing for Saints that
44:56 he cannot err if she says it’s st. john
44:58 paul ii is the same well he can’t air on
45:01 that issue because he’s proposing
45:02 something for belief to Catholics
45:04 although however I know that john paul
45:06 ii kiss the quran has received the mark
45:08 of shiva has said all sorts of repulsive
45:10 things in all of his encyclicals he
45:12 can’t possibly be a saint so these are
45:14 all things you could say that our
45:16 teachings of the the Novus Ordo church
45:18 that flow from vatican ii which are in
45:20 opposition to my Catholic faith so I
45:23 didn’t have to say well as this
45:24 Catholicism or not well I get to look
45:26 back at 1960 years of history whereas
45:29 the Vatican two popes only ever quote
45:32 themselves they pretend that nothing has
45:35 existed prior and again to your point of
45:37 the Church of today yeah I would be fine
45:39 with that narrative if it included any
45:41 part of the Church of before but it
45:43 doesn’t it doesn’t it pretends that
45:45 those Pope’s never existed vatican ii is
45:47 the super council be super dogma of all
45:49 times and it’s the only thing ever
45:51 taught and what the funny thing is it’s
45:54 only taught as an idea catholics again
45:56 have never read these documents as
45:58 they’re boring i have to disagree with
46:00 you about the church not exposing us to
46:02 pre-vatican to councils and documents
46:05 because those are the only documents i
46:08 am familiar with and the only ones I
46:09 have read I’m not that I’ve read them
46:11 exhaustively or are you are you asked to
46:13 read them from the sermons that you hear
46:14 on Sunday or did you do them on your
46:16 just on my own so you’re not receiving
46:18 it from the people who are ostensibly
46:20 pastors of the Catholic Church I don’t
46:22 get a lot of theology from the pulpit
46:24 it’s more just talk about the readings
46:26 and relate it to the people in the pews
46:28 and it’s very simple sure I understand
46:30 you’re in a country in which the bishop
46:33 gives communion to Justin Trudeau so I
46:35 don’t have
46:35 a lot of a lot of confidence in the in
46:38 the moral fortitude of the Canadian code
46:40 I am firmly opposed to giving communion
46:42 to Justin Trudeau or anyone else that’s
46:44 pro-choice so you know better than the
46:46 bishops of Canada I mean again doesn’t
46:49 the set up a disjunction no because I I
46:52 belong to the universal Catholic Church
46:54 and this is a matter of discipline this
46:56 isn’t a matter of personal morality the
46:58 the man is a heretic he’s not a
47:00 practicing Catholic you cannot it is
47:01 forbidden for a public heretic someone
47:04 like himself to receive Communion and
47:06 you have someone who has ordered
47:07 quote/unquote ordinary jurisdiction
47:09 within the Canadian diocese Archdiocese
47:11 whatever it might be of the Catholic
47:13 Church and he’s disobeying a direct
47:14 Catholic teaching I view that as a
47:16 problem I view that as a grave problem
47:19 and it’s very disconcerting but I also
47:21 equally believes in a different religion
47:23 than you do so the question is do you
47:25 believe in the same religion that this
47:26 Canadian bishop believes it or not my
47:28 Catholicism is more like your
47:30 Catholicism probably but the difference
47:32 is that I submit to the church even
47:35 though it’s full again it’s not a
47:37 question of personal morality it’s a
47:38 question of doctrinal deviancy to give
47:40 communion to someone who is publicly on
47:42 catholic is forbidden by the church okay
47:45 if you’re telling me that my church
47:47 teaches that it’s okay for Justin
47:50 Trudeau to receive communion that I will
47:52 run I will run away from that but I
47:53 don’t believe that the idea that I need
47:56 to be able to read something and study
47:58 something as a Catholic is false because
48:00 not everyone is at your level of
48:02 literacy or your level of learning the
48:04 question has to be lowest common
48:06 denominators show Catholic and the pew
48:08 Jain Catholic and the pew and what do
48:10 they see they see this you can’t say oh
48:13 well you know Keith it didn’t say this
48:14 in this document so you don’t have to
48:16 worry about it their faith in the
48:18 meantime gets eroded while you’re
48:20 standing around waiting for evidence but
48:22 the problem is that your actions are you
48:26 I don’t remember what Saint said preach
48:28 the faith always use words when
48:30 necessary this idea that your actions
48:32 are completely well if he didn’t say it
48:34 it doesn’t count or he didn’t write it
48:37 in a document somewhere it doesn’t count
48:38 it’s like these people are acting in a
48:40 NAPA statical manner but for some reason
48:42 when someone has bishops robes on you
48:45 say well I’m conforming to the hierarchy
48:47 it’s like well there’s no
48:48 get-out-of-jail-free card for the IRT do
48:51 what they say not what they do there are
48:53 plenty of people that are ostensibly in
48:55 the Catholic hierarchy that I consider
48:57 wolves in sheep’s clothing I think Jesus
48:59 Christ promised me that there would be
49:00 weeds among the wheat until the very end
49:02 but I’m not deterred by the simple fact
49:05 that they’re obviously wolves in sheep’s
49:07 clothing that is so painfully obvious to
49:09 everyone I think in Novus Ordo have you
49:11 met a Novus Ordo that denied that there
49:13 are wolves in sheep’s clothing in the
49:15 hierarchy no I have I have met people
49:16 who are big fans of Pope Francis and
49:19 think that he’s a breath of fresh air I
49:21 like him and I love him and I pray for
49:23 him and I respect him and I honor him I
49:26 don’t trust him as a man I trust his
49:28 office that he will never teach error
49:29 concerning faith and morals but he had
49:31 he has taught error regarding annulments
49:33 divorce and receiving Communion he’s
49:35 directly opposing gothic teaching on
49:37 this have you read a Morris leticia yeah
49:39 okay well you know that it’s a chapter 6
49:41 alone is directly contradictory to
49:43 church teaching and I’m and I’m not out
49:45 on a limb here there’s this whole talk
49:47 about a formal correction and Cardinal
49:49 Burke and all these people they’re not
49:50 from crazy land no no so so so my
49:53 question is is it possible for someone
49:55 who is not of the body to be the head no
49:57 it’s not so if someone is a heretic they
49:59 cannot be the head of the Catholic
50:00 Church if this man is posing heresy as
50:03 universal teaching which amorous leticia
50:05 is and then the Argentinian bishops
50:07 issued a statement saying this is how
50:09 divorce people can receive and then
50:11 Francis writes a letter saying there is
50:13 no other interpretation
50:14 other than the Argentinian bishops
50:16 interpretation that is documentation of
50:19 someone directly opposing the Catholic
50:21 faith and and this man apparently the
50:23 head of the Catholic Church
50:24 okay can we talk about this because I’m
50:26 firmly opposed to giving communion to
50:29 divorced and remarried well you’re
50:30 opposed to vote Francis then
50:32 I read the document maybe it’s because I
50:36 have rose-colored glasses on but I just
50:38 chose to say well I don’t understand it
50:41 you know do you remember when st. jerome
50:43 translated the bible and he encountered
50:45 things he couldn’t understand he didn’t
50:47 say the bible is wrong he said it’s
50:48 infallible I’m fallible therefore I just
50:52 can’t grasp it he famously said that and
50:55 I say the same thing with the church
50:57 documents today this has never happened
50:58 before you’re talking about you’re
51:01 talking about something
51:02 it’s never happened that a church
51:04 document has come out and I think the
51:05 thing is you may not have you read any
51:08 encyclicals from any of the Pope’s prior
51:10 to John Paul a second yeah I know
51:12 they’re clear and they’re concise and
51:14 there’s no ambiguity I know that because
51:16 that’s what Catholic teaching is it’s
51:19 always been that way that is a
51:21 characteristic of Catholic teaching and
51:23 when you see things that are not it
51:25 means
51:25 hmm probably not Catholic which means I
51:29 don’t have to adhere to them and the
51:30 question is what does that mean what are
51:32 the consequences of that if I don’t
51:33 adhere to that is that just something I
51:36 can pick and choose you are picking and
51:38 choosing what you can Oh BAE from Pope
51:40 Francis Pope Francis and again I’m using
51:42 the term Pope because that’ll make it
51:44 easier for your listeners but I
51:44 obviously cannot consider him a Pope
51:46 this guy says that it’s okay to give
51:50 communion to adulterers homosexuals he
51:51 just I firmly disagree that’s fine for
51:54 you to disagree but who the heck are you
51:56 to disagree with the Vicar of Jesus
51:58 Christ on earth aren’t we allowed to
51:59 correct the Pope you are not you have no
52:02 office to do so really didn’t st.
52:04 Catherine of Siena correct the Pope no
52:06 she didn’t correct the Pope she advised
52:07 him to move back to Rome and by what
52:10 authority would you correct the Vicar
52:11 Jesus Christ on earth what could you
52:13 there are other bishops and Cardinals
52:14 who would oppose you so you’re right and
52:16 they’re all wrong are you telling me
52:18 that the church that I belong to is in
52:20 favor of communion for divorce in
52:22 America
52:23 I’m not telling it is a fact go read any
52:25 of the documents read Francis’s letter
52:27 to the Argentinian Bishops read the
52:29 letter of the Argentinian Bishops that
52:30 does better than the simple actions of
52:33 the trudeau Communion in which there is
52:34 no accompanying document I have
52:36 documents on this issue for you not just
52:39 amoris Laetitia
52:40 but all the documents that have come out
52:42 since he went and he blessed this
52:44 happened the other day I saw a video of
52:46 this he blessed it adulterous union of
52:48 the Colombian president both the
52:50 Colombian president and his so-called
52:52 wife are in second marriages with each
52:54 other and he blessed their marriage so
52:57 do you not support the Vicar of Christ
52:58 in blessing an adulterous union of
53:00 course not well who are you to oppose
53:02 him I’m not willing to compromise truth
53:05 or my faith the only thing that I’m a
53:08 bit concerned about was something you
53:09 said earlier on which is and I find that
53:11 this is true I’m not going to join you
53:13 I’m gonna leave Christianity
53:14 I’m not asking anybody to
53:16 joining me I don’t I’m not part of any
53:17 team or any sect or any club I’m
53:20 Catholic I believe in what the Catholic
53:22 Church teaches I would die before I
53:24 would give up this faith so what I would
53:27 encourage you to do is have the same
53:30 courage that brought you here to the
53:32 first place which was entering the Novus
53:35 Ordo you had to leave atheist and you
53:36 had to encounter a lot of things and I
53:38 think that says a lot about your
53:38 character and it says a lot about your
53:40 desire for truth so I would say continue
53:43 that journey and just say maybe I didn’t
53:45 read everything I needed to before I got
53:48 to this first place so think of this as
53:49 supplemental reading for your first
53:51 round as opposed to reading for the exit
53:55 which is you know I do not want you to
53:57 two heads atheism it’s as GK Chesterton
54:00 said if it weren’t for God there would
54:01 be no atheists I think you’ve
54:03 misunderstood me I will never be a
54:05 theist my conversion to God cannot be
54:07 shaken by anything ever but if the
54:11 Catholic Church has contradicted itself
54:12 then I consider Christianity to be a
54:15 false religion but you’re saying that
54:16 there’s continuity and that I’m saying
54:18 that though those people are not as
54:19 we’ve had false councils in the church
54:22 and we’ve had anti-popes in the in the
54:23 church in the past those people were not
54:25 the church so that’s what I’m saying is
54:27 I’m proposing a similar situation I’m
54:29 not proposing anything new so I I would
54:32 I would say that is not the Catholic
54:34 Church contradicting himself and saying
54:35 that it’s a false Church trying to
54:36 assert itself as a Catholic Church and
54:38 I’ve I’ve spotted it and other people
54:40 have spotted it and I think if you if
54:42 you do the research I think you’ll spot
54:44 it as well or at least you’re gonna see
54:45 some big problems and you’re gonna ask
54:46 questions the biggest red flag I got
54:49 from you is when you denied unity said
54:51 there is no more unity that to me is
54:54 untenable
54:55 no I I didn’t say that there’s the word
54:57 I didn’t say there’s no more unity but
54:58 remember unity and oneness and
55:01 visibility holiness all relate again
55:03 back to the faithful the clergy the
55:06 hierarchy and that all still exists to
55:09 be a Pope you need to be an elected by
55:12 Cardinals but to be a Cardinal you need
55:14 to be created Cardinal by a pope so
55:16 there’s a chicken and the egg thing
55:17 there how do you deal with that when
55:21 there is no Pope so there’s a couple
55:23 positions on this there is what they
55:25 call the set a probation ax stand the
55:27 totally terror so this is Olly
55:29 there believes that there will be some
55:32 sort of miracle to deal with this issue
55:34 the set of probation is that people who
55:37 believe in the thesis of Garrard
55:38 DeLaurier believe that Cardinals possess
55:43 an administrative function which you can
55:46 hold without being a cleric right and
55:48 that’s true in the past we’ve had lay
55:49 we’ve had Cardinals or deacons and they
55:52 you don’t necessarily have to be a
55:53 bishop to be a cardinal
55:55 so they fulfill both an administrative
55:57 function and a clerical function so they
55:59 still have the administrative function
56:01 so they believe that all of these
56:03 claimants are what we would consider
56:05 Pope elects in the way that a president
56:09 is a president-elect they are in
56:11 possession of a valid election and once
56:14 they become Catholic they can accede to
56:16 the papacy but until they become
56:18 Catholic there is a obex there is an
56:20 obstacle to them obtaining the power
56:22 same thing the US president even though
56:24 he’s the president-elect he doesn’t
56:26 become president he puts his hand on the
56:28 Bible and he study takes the oath of
56:29 office then he becomes president so
56:31 that’s how it’s resolved for those who
56:34 adhere to the thesis at the end of my
56:37 interviews I always ask my guests to
56:39 speak directly to the audience so just
56:42 to wrap up the interview what would you
56:43 say that anyone that might be out there
56:44 listening now I think one of the most
56:47 wonderful things about being Catholic is
56:50 that it Orient’s my entire world and it
56:53 Orient’s my universe when when good
56:55 things happen when bad things happen
56:56 when strange things happen it all is
57:00 within this universe this creation that
57:03 God has given us and I think that when
57:06 you see something beautiful that was
57:08 created there is a straight line that
57:11 connects from this moment all the way
57:13 back to the beginning of creation and I
57:15 know that my universe makes sense
57:17 because it comes from a place of order
57:19 and so apart from Christianity apart
57:22 from the discussion that we’ve had today
57:24 and what a people might be interested in
57:26 this sort of larger question of why
57:28 we’re here and what we’re doing it all
57:31 comes from this place of love that God
57:33 did not need us God does not need us
57:36 he’s doing this from a place of love and
57:38 that that’s staggering
57:40 and it helps keep us grateful but it
57:43 also I think helps put things in
57:45 perspective right I told you before the
57:47 show that I was suffering from a cough
57:49 and a cold and thankfully it didn’t come
57:50 out too much during our conversation
57:52 today but when you understand the beauty
57:54 of creation things like colds cause
57:56 sickness setbacks at work difficulties
57:59 and relationships challenges with your
58:00 family these all get put in perspective
58:03 and without that I would understand it
58:06 it must be fairly dark to try to
58:07 understand everything from a position of
58:09 chaos but everything has a place and
58:11 order and a reason for existing
58:14 including yourself
58:15 and I challenge you as a listener to
58:18 discover that if you like it will do if
58:25 you’ve got some questions
58:27 you don’t know all you got to do is ask
58:30 all you got to do
58:34 [Music]

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