Catholic vs. Protestant – 2017-07-30 – Meagan

I met Meagan at a party through mutual friends. She is a professional singer by trade, and an Anglican by faith. During our friendly chat we drank tea from fine porcelain china and nibbled on home-made banana bread. I felt right at home.


Please excuse any errors as these captions were automatically generated by YouTube.

0:00 hi I’m Megan and you’re listening to
0:02 Catholic versus Protestant so tell the
0:09 audience a little bit about yourself who
0:10 you are what you believe in why sure
0:13 so I’m Megan as you already know and I
0:17 Griffon Ontario and I grew up in the
0:21 country and my parents are both
0:26 Protestant but from different very
0:28 different denominations within the
0:30 Protestant religions we weren’t a
0:32 particularly religious family we went to
0:36 church sometimes I think my parents had
0:39 a hard time finding a denomination where
0:43 they both felt comfortable so we went to
0:46 the United Church for a long time when I
0:49 was a kid because it seems sort of
0:51 middle ground
0:52 my mum was Anglican my dad came from the
0:55 Christian Reformed tradition they’re
0:58 both immigrants from different countries
1:01 and so we went to the United Church for
1:04 a long time I did Sunday school with my
1:06 sister at the United Church just tiny
1:09 tiny country Church not very many kids
1:11 and so we did go regularly for a while
1:15 I think the community aspect is a hugely
1:19 important thing for my father more than
1:21 the liturgy whatever liturgy there is in
1:25 the United Church and right around when
1:28 my sister and I could have been
1:30 confirmed but we just sort of got out of
1:33 the habit of going to church I think
1:36 part of it was there weren’t other kids
1:39 there really so we didn’t feel inspired
1:43 to go as far as the community is
1:44 concerned and our parents didn’t force
1:47 us we were often busy on weekends with
1:49 things to do on the farm and we just
1:52 kind of got out of a habit when I was
1:55 really small almost before I can
1:57 remember before they had found this
1:59 United Church my mum took me and my
2:02 sister to church occasionally like at
2:04 Christmas
2:05 just a little Anglican Church but I
2:07 barely remember those but that when I
2:10 went to university I just felt
2:13 like I needed something I needed to find
2:16 a religious community that I could
2:18 connect with and I tried a couple
2:20 different churches United Anglican and
2:25 it was funny at the Anglican Church it
2:28 was a small church near the campus I
2:30 suddenly just felt these familiar things
2:33 connect with me so for example just the
2:36 responses and also with you before
2:39 thanks be to God that kind of thing that
2:41 obviously somewhere in my memory that I
2:44 couldn’t specifically consciously
2:46 remember these things were there and it
2:49 made me feel comfortable and so I
2:52 started going regularly to this small
2:54 church and eventually was confirmed
2:56 there much later than an average person
2:59 being confirmed and since then I’ve yes
3:04 gone pretty regularly to Anglican
3:06 services there and then moving to
3:08 Montreal different churches around what
3:12 has your prayer life been like starting
3:15 from when your parents taught you to
3:17 pray at meals when before bed or if that
3:18 happened at all I don’t know it wasn’t
3:20 regular we would usually just pray at
3:23 sort of big family occasions like
3:25 Thanksgiving or when lots of the family
3:27 was around and it was pretty generic
3:30 just sort of ready-made prayers that
3:33 everybody knew and often just sort of
3:36 thanking God for our family and for the
3:39 food on the table that kind of thing and
3:41 that was usually my dad who would
3:43 promote that kind of thing
3:44 my mum was much more private in her
3:47 prayer life and didn’t really talk about
3:49 it religion has always been a pretty
3:51 private thing for my mom and I followed
3:55 a little bit in her footsteps that way
3:57 but would you pray as a child in bed
3:59 sometimes again it wasn’t a regular
4:02 every night before bed kind of thing but
4:04 I remember sometimes asking God to look
4:07 out for certain people or help me with
4:11 things that I was going through in my
4:13 childhood when I was in high school my
4:16 mom had cancer and I remember praying
4:18 about that even though I wasn’t
4:20 regularly going to a church at that
4:22 point so even when we weren’t going to
4:24 church God was still just sort of this
4:27 obvious thing but I never really
4:29 questioned it was just part of even
4:32 though maybe we weren’t comfortable as a
4:34 family with the institution of religion
4:37 the face itself was never questioned was
4:41 there a relative an aunt or an uncle
4:42 that was very devout yeah my dad saw a
4:46 whole side of the family in the
4:48 Christian Reformed tradition they are
4:50 still most of them extremely devout and
4:53 quite I would almost say fundamentalist
4:56 like pretty conservative in their belief
4:59 does the reform encompass Calvinism and
5:01 all those sorts of things
5:02 yes is presbytery a part of that no
5:04 presbyterian I would say is more liberal
5:07 okay it certainly has its roots in
5:10 Calvinism but I would say the Christian
5:12 Reformed is much more conservative okay
5:15 generally speaking and often believing
5:18 more literally in the Bible and very
5:22 closed-minded as far as women the role
5:25 of women and it’s just not very
5:27 open-minded to outsiders and if you do
5:30 something that is considered for example
5:34 my dad divorced from his first wife and
5:36 he was sort of shunned and that made him
5:39 leave the Christian Reformed Church and
5:43 eventually his family sort of forgave
5:46 him and when he married my mother but
5:49 that sort of colored his experience with
5:52 that church he considers it a little bit
5:54 hypocritical that they would cast away
5:57 someone who was going through a really
5:58 rough time and he’s never really come to
6:01 terms with that so yeah it’s that side
6:05 of things is always a little extreme for
6:08 my family are they both for life your
6:10 parents okay are they getting more
6:13 religious or less religious a little
6:15 more they attend an Anglican Church now
6:17 actually that they really like and they
6:20 go much more regularly than they ever
6:22 did before again I think the community
6:24 is the most important part for my dad
6:26 what do you check the Anglican checkbox
6:28 on a questionnaire oh yeah I think you
6:33 would but I don’t know if you asked him
6:36 what is Anglicanism as opposed to United
6:39 Church or
6:40 kind of another brand of Protestant
6:42 church I don’t know if you’d really be
6:43 able to explain it but you just knows
6:45 he’s comfortable in that particular
6:47 space are there still today a high
6:51 Anglican and low Anglican churches okay
6:53 what is the difference the liturgy is
6:55 where you find most of the differences
6:57 so in an high Anglican Church more of
7:00 the services some there’s often more
7:04 bell ringing there’s incense a lot of
7:06 the time there’s more formality in the
7:09 liturgy
7:10 are they close are doctrinally to the
7:11 Catholic Church than the low Anglican
7:13 yes although the doctrines one could
7:17 argue that the doctrines in the high
7:18 Anglican and lone Anglican churches are
7:20 the same it’s just how you express them
7:22 in how you worship but do they mix and
7:24 mingle and go to each other churches or
7:26 no it’s separated it depends on the
7:28 person you can yeah I go all over the
7:31 place I I really like the high Anglican
7:34 service so you like the liturgy the
7:36 singing more yeah and yeah that’s what I
7:39 love about it what are the pros of the
7:41 low angle
7:42 I like this simplicity I find sometimes
7:45 in the high Anglican churches just
7:48 because of the nature of the liturgy the
7:51 people involved in the liturgy end up
7:53 spending a lot of time worrying about
7:55 the details of you know well we have to
7:59 rehearse the processions and you have to
8:01 worry about what color the you know
8:04 every all the vestments are and all that
8:05 kind of thing which is makes it
8:07 beautiful
8:07 but sometimes I think it’s easy to spend
8:10 a lot too much time on that and forget
8:13 maybe about the actual basic service and
8:16 so sometimes my parents church is quite
8:18 low and I like going there okay because
8:20 it’s it’s much simpler okay so I’m also
8:23 a professional singer and I’m singing a
8:26 lot of the time at church services and I
8:28 find this sometimes there’s so much
8:30 music to concentrate on that I don’t
8:33 really participate in the service as a
8:36 worshiper so I like to some days I have
8:38 off and I can go either to the same
8:41 church or to a different one and just
8:43 pray and be present as a parishioner
8:46 instead of as a someone involved in the
8:49 liturgy you feel like you’re distracted
8:51 but I think you are in a worship mode
8:53 when you’re seeing
8:53 definitely and it also depends on what
8:55 you’re singing how well you know it for
8:57 example if it’s something you know
8:58 really well then you can sort of lose
9:00 yourself in that experience whereas if
9:02 it’s a piece you’re sight-reading and
9:03 you’re worried about singing the right
9:05 notes
9:06 maybe some part of you is praying but I
9:08 think it’s harder that way I want to
9:11 talk a bit more about your personal
9:12 experience with God and religion how far
9:16 have you drifted away in terms of
9:17 indulging in sin and turning your back
9:20 on God or being angry with God as I’ve
9:23 been a point in your life where you’ve
9:24 reached a low point I’ve never really
9:27 been angry with God I don’t think
9:30 there’s much point in being angry with
9:32 God I’ve certainly had moments in my
9:34 life where I’ve felt closer and then
9:37 further part of it actually I think is
9:40 when I feel very involved in a
9:44 particular church community I feel like
9:47 I have a church home if you will then I
9:50 tend to feel a little bit closer to God
9:53 and that’s a very personal thing I don’t
9:55 mean to say that everyone should be
9:56 connected to a particular church and
9:58 that’s going to help you but it helps me
10:00 and just being part of that liturgical
10:03 cycle year after year celebrating the
10:06 same thing finding new meaning in the
10:08 same text and that helps me feel closer
10:11 when I feel less satisfied with a
10:15 particular place because of some of the
10:17 people involved or because I find the
10:19 music isn’t good enough or isn’t to my
10:22 taste then I feel less close and I have
10:27 to work harder personally on my own time
10:30 sort of not at church to feel that
10:32 connection do you struggle to perfect
10:37 yourself with a virtue is there
10:39 something that’s a conscious project for
10:40 you do you think about the 10
10:42 commandments do you do an examination of
10:44 conscience every day no I don’t I think
10:49 the thing that I continually work on is
10:52 my prayer life okay that I need to hand
10:57 over more things to God and not worry so
11:01 much when I know I can’t control certain
11:04 things I need to rely on him
11:06 more and talked to him more as far as
11:12 actual sin and virtue at to be honest
11:15 don’t really think about that much maybe
11:16 because I haven’t gone down into the
11:19 depths very often and the ten
11:23 commandments are one thing but sin it’s
11:26 as far as the sort of small daily sins
11:29 that we all commit they’re very personal
11:31 and and it’s the matter between you and
11:34 God
11:34 so it’s for me it’s more of just a
11:36 matter of that prayer and maintaining
11:39 that relationship one on one with God
11:41 that I need to continue to strive to
11:43 what do you have how many sakowitz do
11:44 you have we have seven but only two are
11:49 necessary for salvation they divide them
11:50 into ones that are explicitly performed
11:54 in the gospel so that’s baptism and
11:56 Eucharist and then the rest of them that
11:58 are not really gospel sacraments so
12:00 they’re not considered necessary but
12:02 they’re all done by Anglicans you can
12:05 for example be anointed as a sick person
12:08 there’s ordination there’s confirmation
12:11 but you don’t need them okay can you
12:13 talk a little bit about the history it’s
12:15 fascinating the kings and queens in the
12:17 pulpit just just what sort of generally
12:19 what happened
12:20 so I mean often people say that the
12:24 start of the Anglican Church was with
12:25 King Henry the eighth’s and
12:27 theoretically speaking it was he broke
12:30 from the Catholic Church and became of
12:33 the head of the English church and
12:35 started this Anglican tradition however
12:38 his view of the Anglican Church was
12:40 really just a church that he could
12:42 control that was pretty much the same as
12:44 the Catholic Church he just wanted to be
12:47 able to divorce his wife basically the
12:51 reforms came from Luther where all the
12:55 other reforms came from and were slowly
12:58 integrated into the church some in King
13:01 Henry’s time but more in his son’s time
13:03 King Edward the sixth and after that so
13:07 King James the first which is where you
13:10 get the King James Version of the Bible
13:12 is really where the doctrines
13:16 of the Anglican Church began to be
13:17 really written down and solidified how
13:21 many years since Henry the eighth’s
13:23 death was that three generations so
13:27 James the first was King after Elizabeth
13:30 the first okay so she died in 1603 I
13:34 think between Henry VIII 8 and James
13:37 everyone on the throne was Protestant no
13:40 so King Henry was technically Protestant
13:43 but then his son was much more
13:46 Protestant as in less Catholic and then
13:51 Queen Mary was Catholic and so there was
13:55 I don’t remember how long her reign was
13:56 but there was a period of time where
13:58 England was very anti Protestant and
14:01 then her sister her cousin sorry
14:06 well half-sister Elizabeth the first
14:08 became Queen and she was Protestant
14:11 although she was not as anti-catholic as
14:16 Edward the 6th was so there was a little
14:19 bit more leeway as far as freedom of
14:21 religion less blood shows maybe yeah
14:22 less bloodshed for sure what are the
14:25 numbers of people killed explicitly for
14:27 their religion I don’t know a period I
14:29 don’t know ten people ten thousand and
14:32 ten million I would say more like ten
14:34 thousand as far as okay I mean even in
14:36 Queen Elizabeth’s time there were there
14:38 were lots of persecutions of Catholics
14:40 and I think it was unclear for a lot of
14:43 time how illegal Catholicism was and so
14:46 there were secret masses and music that
14:50 was composed illegally for the Catholic
14:53 Church and with James the first I think
14:55 it became more clear what the boundaries
14:58 were and Protestantism was the rule of
15:02 the day who are the good guys in that
15:05 sort of lineage like that who are the
15:07 shining heroes even if it’s a false
15:10 assessment of history but what is the
15:12 assessment generally speaking in the
15:13 mainstream as far as a religion is
15:15 concerned or yeah in religion and in the
15:17 secular world who are seen as the heroes
15:19 and the villains of that sort of
15:20 succession
15:22 Queen Mary for sure is seen as a villain
15:25 partly because of how many people she
15:28 killed and I think also
15:29 she wasn’t considered a very good ruler
15:31 she also wasn’t a ruler for very long
15:34 Elizabeth the first is obviously a great
15:37 heroine she was great for the country
15:39 and a little more open-minded about
15:42 religion which i think is what people
15:44 wanted Henry VIII ate himself was seen
15:46 as a buffoon or a fool or what a little
15:50 bit of a fool I think because of his six
15:52 wives more than for his religion
15:54 religious beliefs he was a very devout
15:56 Catholic and his decision to part with
16:00 the church was I think probably more
16:02 influenced by his Protestant leaning
16:06 advisers and wife at the time he did
16:10 quite a lot of good things for England
16:11 but he’s generally seen as a villain
16:13 because of the way he treated his wives
16:15 how do you as an Anglican see Saint
16:19 Thomas More is he accurately depicted do
16:23 you think yeah I see him as a good man
16:25 who died for his principles in a very
16:27 confusing time when the average person
16:29 couldn’t really tell you what was right
16:31 and what was wrong according to the
16:33 realm hmm did that crystallize some of
16:37 that ambiguity do you think for the rest
16:40 of history that was to flow from that I
16:41 think so partly because King Henry and
16:43 Thomas More were friends more than
16:45 anything so at that point I don’t think
16:49 King Henry the eighth’s
16:50 had been known to be particularly
16:53 ruthless in his punishment of enemies
16:57 until that point where well if this guy
17:00 can kill his really good friend then
17:04 watch out you know maybe we’re in
17:06 unchartered territory basically as far
17:09 as religion is concerned I mean they
17:11 used to discuss theology in a very
17:14 jovial fashion they liked to talk about
17:17 it and they liked to argue about it and
17:19 have many similar beliefs so I think
17:22 more than about the religion itself it
17:24 was a line in the sand about how
17:26 ruthless this King could be and who came
17:30 before him his father his his older
17:33 brother was supposed to be King and may
17:36 have even been King for a very short
17:38 time now I can’t
17:39 no I don’t think he was but his brother
17:43 died when he was quite young
17:45 what was it Henry Henry the seventh okay
17:48 yeah and they were his father was the
17:51 first of their line the tutors and
17:54 considered by many to be sort of
17:56 upstarts they weren’t particularly royal
17:59 in their family connections but because
18:02 of different marriages and some battles
18:05 that they won I think it was Henry the
18:08 seventh father who sort of got them on
18:11 the Royal track what’s a technic stock
18:14 did they come from
18:15 Welsh partly Welsh and English English
18:18 which was a mixture of Norman and Saxon
18:23 it’s already mixed up by that point yeah
18:26 and how old is England at that time it’s
18:32 hard to say yes sir I mean England as we
18:35 know it as as far as the royal lineage
18:39 is concerned sort of began in 1066 this
18:42 is when William the Conqueror came from
18:44 Normandy and sort of United the kingdom
18:47 but there were many people living there
18:50 long before that who had their own
18:52 duchies and kingdoms and even before
18:56 that there were the Celtic people native
18:58 to the islands who lived there so hard
19:01 to say how old it is
19:02 one last historic question for you I
19:04 know you’re not an expert you’re just an
19:06 amateur you you love that part of
19:08 history right is there a golden age of
19:12 the monarchy in England is there a
19:16 high-water mark in the English monarchy
19:20 um
19:22 even if it’s only in your own opinion I
19:24 guess in my opinion Elizabeth the first
19:27 would be a pretty high mark because she
19:31 won a couple of big battles against the
19:34 Spanish who were always threatening
19:36 England so she kind of got rid of that
19:38 threat and she sort of calms down the
19:42 Scottish question one could argue in a
19:44 not very nice way but she just made
19:46 things feel more settled and peaceful in
19:49 the territory of England this segues
19:52 nicely in
19:53 my next line of questioning which has to
19:55 do with you as a woman mm-hmm
19:57 can you just talk about what it means to
19:59 be a woman and to be religious generally
20:01 in general mm-hmm what I like about
20:04 being a woman in the Anglican Church is
20:07 that there’s freedom for women we can be
20:10 priests we can be bishops depending on
20:12 which area but most areas in the
20:15 developed world so yeah I like that
20:19 there can be women in authority in the
20:22 Anglican Church that it’s generally
20:24 regarded as equal and there are many
20:27 women in authority is queen elizabeth ii
20:31 we head of your church yes it’s a
20:35 different kind of hierarchy than the
20:37 Catholic Church she doesn’t claim
20:39 infallibility writing it’s more of a
20:41 sort of bureaucratic hierarchy the
20:44 Archbishop of Canterbury is considered
20:47 the sort of leader of the Anglican
20:49 Church but also not in the same way as
20:51 the Pope he sort of is the political
20:55 leader and you could say even though
20:56 it’s not politics it’s its church but he
20:59 doesn’t claim any extra connection to
21:03 God just because he’s the archbishop the
21:05 hierarchy of the Catholic Church bothers
21:08 me a little bit some one reason why I
21:09 feel like I couldn’t be Catholic one big
21:12 reason because it makes people unequal
21:15 we’re all equal in dignity mm-hmm and
21:18 we’re all equal in terms of being
21:20 completely dependent on God the grace
21:24 since we’re talking about women what
21:27 role does Mary play in the Anglican
21:29 Church it depends on which you go to
21:31 what kind of person you are some high
21:34 Anglican churches pray to Mary and have
21:38 altars to Mary and just our values icons
21:41 will work very similar to Catholic
21:43 Church the of Rose would do pray the
21:45 rows are not you personally but is it
21:46 permitted to pray the rosary mm-hmm
21:48 other angle contrition fairly talked
21:50 about her especially the lower ones in
21:53 general the Anglican Church regards her
21:56 as the mother of Christ but doesn’t
21:59 regard her as a deity
22:01 nobody regards yours I know that but
22:03 just to clarify copper kisses
22:06 it’s nice you shouldn’t say nobody I’m
22:08 sure there’s someone out there that does
22:09 yes again this is an aspect of the
22:12 Anglican Church that I like is that
22:14 there’s a lot of leeway in what you
22:17 believe in the doctrine there’s a lot of
22:19 gray area and you can choose things that
22:21 suit you personally are you allowed to
22:24 believe that Mary was not a virgin
22:27 before during and after the birth of
22:29 Christ are you allowed to believe I’m
22:35 not go out to believe that right are you
22:37 you know I’m not actually sure about
22:40 that
22:40 you should look into it maybe not as
22:42 much leeway as you think you right right
22:45 know what I mean yeah there’s a lot of
22:51 Catholics I meet that think they have a
22:52 lot of leeway but they’re just ignorant
22:54 of what the Church teaches right so
22:56 there are a lot of Catholics I mean they
22:57 think that they have leeway to choose if
22:59 they want to go to Mass on Sunday or not
23:01 but they don’t have a choice they have
23:02 to go to Mass but they just don’t know
23:03 that they have to go right so it’s not
23:05 leeway it’s ignorance so there may be
23:07 some of that I’m sure I’m sure there’s
23:09 some of that in what I don’t know
23:11 exactly all graces they come to us to
23:16 Mary she’s the neck Christ is a head the
23:19 church is the body and Mary is the neck
23:20 and all the grace is flowing from Christ
23:23 ahead to place the body go through the
23:24 neck which is Mary so she’s the
23:27 Mediatrix of all graces and that’s a
23:30 strong doctrine it might be the case
23:32 that the Anglicans believe the same
23:34 thing or they may have jettisoned that
23:36 yeah they don’t again I’m pretty sure
23:38 it’s one of those things that you can
23:40 pray to Mary as a mediator to God but
23:44 it’s not necessary okay yes the Anglican
23:47 Church of course of life is need to
23:48 believe in the Trinity okay yeah there’s
23:51 no leeway there okay
23:53 so on a personal level who are you most
23:57 drawn to in terms of praise in terms of
24:01 petition Thanksgiving and all the
24:04 aspects of prayer I think probably most
24:05 often I’m praying to God the Father but
24:11 I’m often asking for God to send his
24:15 Holy Spirit in a particular direction or
24:18 to someone in particular
24:19 or especially actually when I’m
24:22 worshipping and I’m singing I tend to
24:26 translate that kind of prayer as the
24:28 Holy Spirit because it’s just more
24:30 sensual in a way around Easter when
24:35 we’re specifically talking about Jesus
24:37 and his crucifixion then I spend a lot
24:38 more time talking to Jesus specifically
24:42 vated and when I’m looking for
24:44 compassion I think more about Jesus but
24:49 often it really is a combination
24:51 I guess as it should be what about the
24:55 the passion and the sufferings of Christ
24:59 the Catholic Church is frowned upon by a
25:02 lot of other Christian denominations
25:03 because of our emphasis on suffering and
25:07 death it’s not the whole story but it’s
25:10 a significant part of the story can you
25:12 talk a little bit about sufferings of
25:13 Christ yeah I mean in the Anglican
25:17 Church one can choose during Holy Week
25:21 for example to really engage in that
25:25 side and really go find a service to go
25:29 to every day
25:30 you can do Stations of the Cross at many
25:34 Anglican churches some of them on Good
25:37 Friday do like a contemplation of the
25:41 crucifix but it’s definitely not
25:44 something that everyone feels
25:45 comfortable with as you were saying and
25:48 a lot of Anglicans will just go Easter
25:51 Sunday morning and celebrate the
25:52 resurrection inherent in the Anglican
25:55 service even if it’s not a required
25:59 sacrament inherent in the Liturgy of
26:01 every Anglican Church is a general
26:03 collective confession every week and
26:06 less so you are confronted with that you
26:10 say it all together and the priest
26:12 absolve you before you take your
26:14 communion so it is sort of Catholic
26:17 light like it’s a little harder because
26:19 you’re doing it everyone together maybe
26:22 you don’t certainly I don’t every week
26:26 confront specifically the suffering or
26:29 my suffering or the things that I’ve
26:31 done wrong but it is something
26:33 you go through each time you go to math
26:36 yeah I think the Catholic theologians
26:38 are fond of referring to that as a
26:41 virtual intention so there’s a sort of
26:46 set it and forget it mentality that we
26:48 have I when I converted in 2009 I was
26:52 confronted with a whole host of set
26:54 prayers especially when I was just a
26:55 monotheists I didn’t believe in the
26:57 Trinity I believed in the Incarnation
26:58 but I I was entering the Catholic Church
27:01 nonetheless because I needed to worship
27:03 God
27:03 I did my rigorous analysis and I
27:06 prayerfully looked at the prayer and
27:08 said it seems okay don’t worry about it
27:12 and I just pray it and a lot of new
27:14 prayers that I encounter I think about
27:16 it deeply mm-hmm but not every time I I
27:19 just I just sort of make sure it’s okay
27:21 that I understand it maybe do a couple
27:24 of passes to get deeper insight maybe
27:26 read what the Saints have said about
27:28 this prayer and then I can I can just
27:32 pray it without thinking about it too
27:34 much
27:34 and I think that’s normal and I think
27:36 it’s the same thing with liturgy in the
27:37 mass you can sort of to a certain extent
27:39 go through the motions and it’s okay
27:41 because there is that virtual intention
27:43 mm-hmm what about the credo you must
27:45 have had you just didn’t say the credo
27:47 when you first started going to Mass
27:49 well I had to I did undergo six months
27:52 of education Catholic education to to
27:55 accept intellectually the Trinity and
27:58 the Incarnation okay so the way that I
28:00 did it is sort of like the way that I
28:04 approach my love life I married a woman
28:06 without knowing everything about her I
28:08 took a leap of faith
28:09 I trusted her I said well seems to be
28:13 this I’m drawn to this woman there’s
28:16 probably a reason for that and I want to
28:18 give myself to her so instead of proving
28:22 that it’s safe I’m just going to give
28:24 myself to her and then time will tell
28:27 Matt and twenty-one years later I’m
28:28 still married to her I’m happy she’s not
28:31 so happy that I’m Catholic but but it’s
28:34 the same thing with religion I said I’m
28:36 drawn to worship God I don’t have a chav
28:39 to wish as soon as I realized that God
28:40 is God I had to worship and publicly
28:42 mm-hmm so I took the leap of faith and I
28:46 for pragmatic reasons joined
28:48 Christianity and to me Christianity is
28:50 the Catholic Church I joined the
28:51 Catholic Church and I’ve questioned
28:54 everything since when I continued to
28:55 question and I’m still ready to leave
28:57 Christianity already no regrets I don’t
29:02 wanna believe a lie so what do you think
29:04 would be a game-changer like what would
29:07 be the content of can’t you leave
29:09 contradiction if they dogmatically
29:12 permit the ordination of women I will
29:14 leave Christianity because they’ve
29:16 already dogmatically forbidden the
29:18 ordination of women that’s within the
29:20 realm of religion within the realm of
29:23 science when I talk to a theist I’m
29:25 often told that I have confirmation bias
29:28 and that I’ll never leave my faith
29:29 because I will just always interpret
29:31 everything in a way that’s favorable to
29:33 what I want to believe but I come back
29:36 with the answer that it wouldn’t take
29:37 much to falsify my Christianity with
29:40 natural science hmm
29:42 show me that the human race does not
29:45 descend from one human tear if you can
29:48 convince me of polygenism I will leave
29:51 Christianity because it’s a dogma of my
29:53 church that we come from one human pair
29:57 that all humans descend from one human
29:59 pair if that’s not true then
30:02 Christianity is a false religion period
30:04 so my dogmatic faith in my faith is
30:07 dogmatic it’s based on revealed truths
30:10 many of which I can’t prove or disprove
30:12 but there’s a whole web of dogmas and
30:15 they’re all interconnected and if one of
30:17 them is contradicted by the church or by
30:20 science then the whole house of cards
30:22 collapses so it’s very telling that my
30:27 religion is the only religion that puts
30:29 its neck on the line and says this is
30:32 the truth it always was the truth you
30:34 know it always will be the truth and if
30:35 we ever contradict ourselves it’s a
30:38 false religion I don’t know any other
30:39 religion that does that so going
30:43 specifically to Adam and Eve for a
30:45 second how literally do you take the
30:47 Bible there’s a lot of wiggle room in
30:50 terms of interpretation but there are
30:52 principles that guide interpretation one
30:54 of the principles is that we first look
30:58 at the literal meaning
30:59 of any given passage and on top of that
31:02 literal interpretation there are other
31:05 spiritual readings and more symbolic
31:08 meanings okay
31:10 now having said that it may not be the
31:15 case that the particular passage we’re
31:17 looking at literally took place as it’s
31:19 described and a good example of that is
31:24 the two creation stories in Genesis
31:27 right that’s what I was specific we
31:30 because we cannot take both stories at
31:35 face value we have to conclude there’s
31:38 something higher that’s being described
31:41 here and therefore we reject the literal
31:45 interpretation in those points where
31:47 there is contradiction logic forces us
31:49 to reject the literal but we still have
31:51 the symbolic and the spiritual reading
31:54 so which parts can we rely on in terms
31:58 of that literal interpretation an
32:01 example that springs to mind is Adam and
32:04 Eve that we do spring from one couple
32:06 another example is John 6
32:09 the church has dogmatically said that he
32:13 meant it literally that we are eating
32:16 his body blood soul and divinity that’s
32:19 how we put it that it’s really truly and
32:22 actually present under the appearances
32:24 of brethren why so that’s an example of
32:27 a Bible passage that gets the sample of
32:29 a pool for its literal interpretation
32:31 but they’re very very few right and
32:33 these stamps of approval are made by men
32:36 or humans right I even though the
32:40 instrument the men that penned
32:42 infallible Scripture they were men but
32:45 they were inspired and they were
32:46 protected from teaching error concerning
32:47 faith and morals when they put their pen
32:49 to parchment if you’re comfortable with
32:51 that then you should be just as
32:53 comfortable with papal infallibility if
32:55 you’re not comfortable with papal
32:56 infallibility then you should also be
32:58 uncomfortable with the inerrancy of the
33:00 Bible do you believe in the inerrancy of
33:02 the Bible no not at all
33:05 what sets the Bible apart from any other
33:08 religious book or self-help book
33:12 part of it is this age it’s historical
33:16 tradition is this your opinion resist
33:18 the Anglicans my opinion all exams
33:21 generally argue that the four Gospels
33:23 are the Word of God looking through
33:25 these four men the rest of it is
33:29 inspired by God but not necessarily the
33:32 Word of God okay and so I appreciate the
33:35 Bible very much as some of it being the
33:39 Word of God and a lot of it being
33:42 historical information a lot of it being
33:46 historical traditions that have been
33:48 passed down through generations but I
33:51 really do think that all of it needs to
33:54 be examined and not taken I’m not saying
33:57 that you’re taking it at face value but
33:59 I think a lot of traditions do in it I
34:02 really disagree with that there’s a
34:04 hierarchy in the Catholic Church a
34:07 hierarchy of dogmatic truth so it
34:10 wouldn’t make much sense to get excited
34:14 about the divinity of Christ and then
34:17 undermine the very notion of God right
34:20 so the divinity of Christ hangs or
34:24 depends on the reality of God and so on
34:28 and so forth there’s this whole network
34:30 of dogmas or teachings or doctrines that
34:32 hang together in a web but some are more
34:36 fundamental than others and I think that
34:41 if you’re an atheist you also have a set
34:43 of dogmas which are in a hierarchy and
34:45 if you’re a Hindu you have a set of
34:47 dogmas and if you’re a Scientologist you
34:50 have a set of dogmas and if you’re an
34:51 angle can you probably have a set of
34:53 dogmas so there’s no difference there in
34:57 kind there’s only a difference in degree
34:59 and in which particular beliefs you put
35:02 where and how you hang them altogether
35:05 and your little hierarchy so you believe
35:08 in the Trinity remoter established that
35:10 the Anglican Church believes in the
35:12 Trinity and if you stop believing the
35:15 Trinity you stop being an Anglican I
35:17 think there are many many dogmas in the
35:20 Anglican Church that hang together
35:24 and infallibility is in there somewhere
35:26 it is in there somewhere if not the
35:29 whole thing is meaningless just like I
35:31 said with God and we can’t throw away
35:33 the most fundamental aspect God is
35:35 infallible mm-hmm religion is connecting
35:38 to God so you would expect infallibility
35:41 in religion right one thing I have
35:43 trouble agreeing with with the Catholic
35:46 Church is society in general has changed
35:49 since the beginning of time and things
35:54 that used to be law are now no longer
35:58 law and for good reason I think a lot of
36:01 people would agree with that like
36:03 contraception that the Catholic Church
36:06 is against I have an issue with that I
36:10 feel like that’s something that maybe
36:13 used to be more generally believed that
36:17 contraception is a bad thing but times
36:20 have changed and it’s an important I
36:22 think good thing that’s out there for
36:24 for women to use and why does the
36:29 Catholic Church hang on to this but I
36:31 think is an old-fashioned view that
36:34 actually seems to harm women in a lot of
36:37 ways if I disagreed with their stance on
36:40 contraception I would have no qualms of
36:43 walking away from Christianity the
36:45 principle is life are you pro-life or
36:47 you you are pro-life okay so the
36:49 principle is my sign pro-choice
36:51 oh you’re pro-choice okay yeah you’re
36:53 pro-choice okay so the principle is life
36:56 we have a human nature which God gave us
36:59 it wasn’t scientists that gave us our
37:03 human nature it wasn’t a pile of swamp
37:05 water that was struck by lightning that
37:07 gave us a human nature it was God that
37:10 gave us our human nature he designed us
37:13 with the purpose to be happy and to be
37:16 fulfilled and to partake in his life
37:18 forever so it’s good news they call it
37:20 good news for a reason right now it hits
37:22 the good news so life we are made with a
37:25 human nature and we need to correspond
37:29 with that human nature so we can’t cheat
37:32 the system we can’t go against our human
37:33 nature
37:35 and sexuality is real it’s good but if
37:41 we pervert it or make it something it’s
37:44 not we try to isolate one aspect and
37:48 reject another aspect or deny an aspect
37:50 there are consequences and we need to we
37:54 need to be careful about that just like
37:55 if you take your pen and you have a can
37:58 of baked beans and you want to open your
38:03 can with your pen you’re going to ruin
38:05 the pen and you’re not going to open the
38:06 can so there’s a sort of respect that
38:09 you need to have for your tools and a
38:14 respect you need to have in an analogous
38:16 way for your body and for sexuality what
38:20 is it what is it made for and if we
38:23 twist it no matter how much pleasure we
38:25 get in the moment there will be negative
38:27 consequences so when god forbids us from
38:31 doing something which is pleasurable
38:33 it’s because the long-term consequences
38:37 are bad for us and that could be
38:41 confusing because we’re short-sighted
38:42 and we just would love pleasure hmm so
38:45 sex as a unit of function and a
38:47 procreative function and they’re both
38:49 essential and we can’t separate those we
38:51 can ignore one without consequences so
38:55 that’s that’s the sort of medium short
38:58 answer has to do with our human nature
39:01 has to do with goodness and has to do
39:03 with life and maximizing our happiness
39:07 in the long term mm-hmm because there’s
39:09 a way that seems right to man but it’s
39:12 end is destruction and we are free we
39:16 can follow our instincts and we can
39:19 follow our gut but I think we’re better
39:24 off listening to God I like your answer
39:26 or I find it problematic is in cases
39:29 where this unity this partnership that
39:33 is inherent in sexuality isn’t equal and
39:37 it sounds like you’re saying that women
39:39 are sort of a passive receptacle for men
39:42 semen it’s just like oh no here comes
39:44 more pregnancy juice or something like
39:46 that
39:48 in some cases I don’t think this is the
39:50 primary motivation for having
39:52 contraception I think the primary
39:53 motivation is sex is fun but
39:56 responsibility is not so fun right well
39:59 it’s not like if there’s there bunch of
40:01 big strong Muslim men raping their wives
40:03 daily and oh if only I didn’t have 13
40:07 kids it would be a little bit less
40:08 wearisome on my body and on my energies
40:11 I have no idea what the numbers are and
40:13 I should hope that that’s not the norm
40:17 in the Western world in the Western
40:19 world women are pretty intimately we’re
40:20 very much in control
40:22 I wouldn’t thought we could argue that
40:25 too but I agree with you in the Western
40:28 world it’s way less of an issue but in
40:32 other parts of the world I think it’s
40:34 much more of an issue I would like to go
40:36 to the heart of the issue and sit down
40:38 with your macho bully husband and your
40:41 timid submissive rape victim wife do you
40:45 love and respect and honor the dignity
40:47 of this your fellow human being that you
40:49 married ceremoniously so if your family
40:52 and friends present I mean come on this
40:55 is a basic level of education that we
40:57 need to address we can’t just throw them
40:59 some condoms we need to get to the heart
41:01 of the humanity of this big bully and
41:03 I’m not denying that there are these big
41:05 macho bullies with more testosterone
41:07 than brain cells but we need to go to
41:10 the heart of the issue otherwise it’s
41:12 just going to be raped with a condom
41:14 that’s true we do need to go to the
41:16 heart of the issue but in the meantime I
41:18 like that part of the issue is something
41:19 that will obviously take more time to
41:22 educate and tease out yeah and I just
41:24 feel like in the meantime there’s a lot
41:27 of abuse happening sexuality is a really
41:31 really really hot topic
41:33 whenever Catholicism is brought up
41:35 whether it’s the deviant sexual behavior
41:37 of those who are in the priesthood god
41:40 help them or whether it’s the
41:44 hypocritical behavior of the people in
41:47 the pews who are silently complicit with
41:50 the dogmas of the church but secretly
41:52 sleeping with their secretary or using
41:55 contraception at home or masturbating
41:57 whatever it is
41:59 I’m not here to judge anyone God knows
42:01 our animal passions are difficult to
42:05 tame if we don’t give ourselves to God
42:07 completely it’s a losing battle mm-hmm
42:10 but there is a POC recei in the church
42:14 and that doesn’t help when it comes to
42:15 trying to sell the church to non
42:17 Catholics or when it comes to
42:18 apologizing for the behavior of the
42:22 pedophile priests or the the idiots in
42:24 the pews it’s not till battle trying to
42:26 do PR for this church of course yes any
42:29 Church any charity Seth Apocrypha of
42:31 course no and I don’t mean to be –
42:35 argumentative about all just one of
42:37 these sort of thorny issues that I find
42:39 problematic with business Catholic
42:41 Church so it’s just interesting to hear
42:43 how you think about it and how the
42:45 church thinks about it
42:46 yeah I tend to be conservative by nature
42:49 so it’s easy it was easy for me to
42:51 accept all the dogmas of the Catholic
42:54 Church whereas a lot of people I meet
42:55 it’s a stumbling block for them because
42:57 they’re part of a world that’s very
42:59 sexually liberated and I sympathize with
43:04 them I sympathize with the homosexuals
43:08 who think that loves love and love is
43:10 love mm-hmm I encourage them to love
43:12 each other just don’t have sex with each
43:13 other do you think it’s okay to have sex
43:16 outside of marriage yes okay is that the
43:21 position of the Anglican Church hmm I
43:24 don’t know is there a resource where I
43:26 can go and find out what the Iowa can
43:28 Church teaches yeah I used to have a
43:31 book that explained some of these
43:33 catechisms
43:35 organ in the Anglican Church not like
43:38 one sort of resource who who are some of
43:41 the heroes of Anglicanism that speak for
43:47 Anglican theology and Anglican
43:49 ecclesiology do you have Saints but do
43:54 you have Saints which are specifically
43:55 Anglican the earliest one that came up
43:58 with the three-legged stool of
44:01 Anglicanism is Richard Hooker
44:03 he’s very early I think he was in the
44:07 16th century already and so anglicanism
44:10 was just being established
44:12 but that three-legged stool that he came
44:14 up with is an important part of the
44:17 Anglican theology scriptures reason and
44:20 tradition that sounds pretty good yeah
44:23 in your personal life have you found
44:26 yourself tending to maybe downplay your
44:30 faith just to fit in a little bit better
44:32 is that something that has ever happened
44:33 to you
44:35 yeah a little bit if someone
44:38 specifically asks me about my faith I
44:40 will answer truthfully and tell them
44:43 what I believe and say that I go to
44:45 church on Sundays but if I’m not asked
44:48 specifically I will often not talk about
44:50 it not because I’m ashamed of it but
44:53 because I think it’s an issue that is
44:55 often fraught with tension and a lot of
44:59 people have strong opinions one way or
45:00 the other and I don’t like making people
45:04 feel uncomfortable so I tend to step
45:06 away from talking about it unless I’m
45:08 specifically asked would you ever step
45:11 in to defend Jesus Christ if he’s being
45:13 maligned in public yes as it happened
45:17 yes and Christians in general sometimes
45:21 you know I will step in and say well and
45:24 yes that’s true but that’s not all
45:26 Christians that kind of comment or yes
45:29 Christians did that in in the past but
45:32 there’s also a lot of good that the
45:34 Christian Church has done that kind of
45:36 defending I will also eagerly see have
45:40 you even gone so far as to defend the
45:41 Catholic Church well in the fact that
45:44 the Catholic Church was the church
45:47 historically yes yeah at the end of my
45:56 interviews I always asked my guests to
45:57 wrap up so just as a closing thought to
46:01 the people that are out there what would
46:02 you say religion and belief I think is
46:07 is a very personal thing and what I find
46:13 especially helpful in my religion is
46:17 that personal connection that we were
46:18 talking about between me and God
46:21 no matter how I choose
46:24 to manifest it or worship that is I
46:28 think the most important thing about any
46:29 religion that I know about and if you
46:33 can find comfort in that personal
46:36 connection even if it’s not with a God
46:41 but with a fourth or even another human
46:45 being feeling connected with something
46:48 or someone is the best way to find love
46:55 and to find compassion and I think that
46:59 should be the goal for everyone in their
47:02 lives is to find ways to connect to
47:06 other humans to connect to a deity to
47:09 connect to the universe when it comes
47:13 down to it that’s what religion is doing
47:16 is giving you a way to connect to
47:18 something other than yourself and I
47:21 encourage anyone to do that I think it’s
47:25 important can I get one of you if you
47:32 can get this awesome questions at the
47:34 end okay
47:35 all you got to do in it all you got to
47:39 do
47:41 [Music]

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