Catholic vs. Protestant - 2019-10-19 - Carl Oelhaf

Author Recorded Saturday October 19th, 2019

There are 31 episodes in the Versus:Protestant series.


I reached out to Carl via Adherent Apologetics which is run by his good friend Zac Sechler. We talked mostly about Authority, the Canon of Scripture, Salvation, Sanctification, Purgatory, and Mary. I hope to have him back soon.


Catholic vs. Protestant - 2019-10-19 - Carl Oelhaf

Author Recorded August 14th, 2016

audio


video

transcript
These transcripts are generated automatically and are therefore unformatted and replete with errors.
hello my name is Carl Olaf and you're listening to Catholic versus Protestant so just tell us a little bit about yourself who you are what you believe and why you believe it all right well I'm a college student I'm a first year at Liberty University in Virginia I am a Protestant I don't really identify with a certain denomination so I guess you'd said nondenominational in that sense but yeah I was baptized a Catholic I was raised in a Catholic family of a very strong Catholic background but I went to a Protestant high school and being exposed to that viewpoint I walked away from the Catholic Church and it was in a Protestant Church that I actually found my relationship with Jesus and grew in my faith in a way that I had never seen before and it really just changed my life through the working of the Holy Spirit and the power of God and I'm so grateful for that can you just talk a little bit about how you were raised and the first sort of memories that you have of God and religion an image of a religious person or the smell of incense at church or something a really early memory and then just sort of paint a picture of how you came into the Catholic faith and then later we'll talk about how you drifted away from it okay so there was never very heavy emphasis on religion in my house I was never encouraged to find a personal relationship with Jesus Jesus was always a sort of role model to be looked at and I'm not saying that he's not but that's not the full relationship that I've realized I can have with Jesus he was always looked at as like how I should be acting and not someone that I should be interacting with in that sense yeah do you have any friends or family that are really on fire for the faith who are Catholic yes actually my basketball coach he works at Penn State or my old basketball coach in high school he is one of the most devout Catholic people that I've ever met that man is truly on fire for God he teaches like the things he taught us in basketball are very biblical and I really look up to that man quite a bit nice you stay in touch with him absolutely so I was just texting him about two nights ago nice yeah thanks maybe you can get him on my show um I'm sure I'm certain that he would love to do that out cool I'll talk with him about that thank you what about your siblings can you talk about your siblings if you have any ah I have one younger brother he is a secular humanist so I don't know me and him were just polar opposites I've been trying to build a relationship with him recently but yeah it's a struggle so you're blond does he have jet-black hair he has dirty blond brownish hair oh yeah sounds evil yeah so talk to me a little bit about the transition from de-facto cradle Catholic to Protestant or non-denominational Christian and tell me and the listeners if he went through any sort of agnosticism or even atheism in that journey please I'd never say that I went through actual atheism I went through practicing atheism that's for certain but I as an I acted like I had no authority and I was my own authority but I would always confess that Jesus had saved me but the Protestant examples in my life were just so much I looked at what they had in I know I keep mentioning this relationship with Jesus and that thing that they had I wanted and every time that I asked them what it was it was oh I have this relationship with Jesus it didn't start as an intellectual journey it started as merely a happen of circumstance but through studying and through a senior project that I just did last year it really did grow into it in an intellectual sense but I just saw the example and people brought me with them and their walk with God and just ministered to me through that and I started going to a Protestant Church instead of the Catholic Church that I'd been going to on Christmas and Easter but I went to Protestant church every like almost every Sunday and yeah it just really changed my life mm-hmm do you remember the last time you took Holy Communion probably Christmas of my sophomore year so Christmas three years ago okay so do you remember what words the priest said when he gave you the body blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ I could not say I'm sorry he said the body of Christ and then you said Amen yes okay so that is a personal relationship with your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ you are a person you have a human nature and God took on a human nature in the Incarnation and he gave himself to you and you gave yourself to him during that holy communion if if you were in the state of grace and if you believe now if you didn't then it was a blasphemous and sacrilegious thing and it was done to your own condemnation and damnation but this is the teaching of the Catholic Church clear something up sure just clear something I'm not saying the kaepa don't have a personal relationship with Jesus I'm not saying that at all I just saying that I was never taught about that personal like prayer intimacy relationship of Jesus through my Catholic upbringing and all that it was only through Protestantism via but if you believed what I believe and if you believed what the Catholic Church teaches then you would be Catholic because you would see that you have the ultimate exchange of persons in that ultimate intimacy and it really is a deep mystery as st. Paul said that exchange that marriage between Christ and His Church and there's nothing better and there's no there's no way to salvation except through that exchange and through that personal relationship you have to be in communion with Christ and His Church so if you believed what I believe you would be a Catholic there's absolutely no doubt about that right it's just that you don't happen to believe it right now is that fair thing to say um I'd say if as I read through the Bible I saw that what the Catholic Church teaches was the most consistent teaching throughout the Bible that I would be Catholic I primarily based my faith off of what I see in the Bible and well I'm certain that either stuff of where I'm wrong there it's that's what that's what I see so right I couldn't say that right now if I just believed what you believed I'd be Catholic because I'm not really comfortable saying that okay but you're willing to say that if you came to believe and understand that the Catholic Church is the church that Jesus Christ built and that he commands you to be a part of that church and to know that Church and to love that church and to serve that church then I have no doubt you would submit to Jesus Christ and you would join his church right 100% okay so now in terms of your own private judgment which you admitted just now is eminently fallible you might be wrong in your interpretation of the Holy Scriptures this brings up a whole series of questions about the Holy Scriptures where did you get them if there's an infallible set of infallible books by what authority do you declare that this particular set of books is infallible and that that set in and of itself is infallible in other words how do you know what the infallible canon of Scripture is in order for you to base your whole worldview on your private judgement of the writings in those books that are contained in that infallible canon ah so by that I look at the historicity of the Bible's I are not the Bible's but the books of the Bible I look at the coherence of the Bible and me and the teachings and all this stuff that it that it exposes I look at the fulfilled prophecies and the references back to previous books of the Bible those are the main things that I look at in terms of determining whether or not something is Scripture because as and I don't want to say that my personal interpretation of Scripture is the absolute you know I'm honestly I think I'm getting into more of subjectivism and I'm not trying to do that but I I look at the whole of Scripture and see does it go here with itself does it refer back to itself it does it affirm in itself that it is Scripture which is a circular argument but does history also attest to that circular reasoning therefore making it a non circular argument those of them those are the main ways that one can truly know whether something is the Word of God or not okay okay different people have different opinions about which books belong in the Canon of Scripture I just interviewed a young man who believes there are only five books in the Canon of Scripture and if you believe any of the other books then you're imbibing lies and falsehoods and you you're in danger of eternal damnation so his Canon contains five books yours probably contains something like sixty-six books as per Luther and mine contains 73 books as per the holy roman catholic church so what do you say to people that have a different interpretation of all the things that you claim that you've examined with your private judgment it's just one word why well this particular young man that I interviewed last night or the night before he said God told him God revealed it to him in a series of dreams and levitations and miracles and he was miraculously healed and so it was God Almighty and he's 100% certain there's nothing that anyone could ever say to prove him wrong and so join now hmm well what books does he believe are just canon so the Gospel of Matthew the Gospel of John the first letter of John and then this one called Gospel of Thomas in the so called Gospel of Philip which are not even part of the Christian canon or any kid except for his I'd ask him about the differences of teaching between the gospel Matthew and the Gospel of Thomas specifically and how if something was from God and therefore perfect in its canonicity how those teachings could contradict themselves so blatantly that's the first question that I'd ask yeah well he assured me that by eliminating the 70 books of the Catholic canon and by adding the Gospel of Thomas and Philip that he has eliminated all contradiction from Christianity and he has eliminated all racism misogyny sexism slavery and all the other evils that he finds in those other books so I'm sure that he has a way of justifying his Canon and that he will prove to you using sound reason and demonstration that there is absolutely no contradiction among any of the verses of any of his inspired texts and I'm sure you could do the same with your set of texts right anyone can do that that's the problem of induction is it pattern matching we cannot know with certainty who's telling the truth which one of us has the Holy Spirit right so we need to look to the church that Jesus Christ founded we need to look to the four marks of the church the church is one Holy Catholic and apostolic how many Saints are in your religion how old is your religion how old is your church right but this this young man that I just interviewed he doesn't even have one follower but he's hoping that his religion will catch on because if it doesn't catch on everyone's going to be damned so it's the same thing with your you think that if everyone is outside of your religion probably they're in danger because they don't belong to what you believe so this is a very very important question we really need to think about the question of authority who has the authority who has the infallibility and who has in defect ability because God promised that his church would not wobble if Jesus Christ could wobble then the Catholic Church would wobble but Jesus Christ cannot wobble you're putting words in my mouth me saying that if someone doesn't hit it here specifically to my personal set of beliefs that they are not saved that is not what I'm saying at all I'm not saying that it's my own personal opinion I'm just saying that this is how I've read scripture I look to people they're far smarter than me I asked for people people's authority in my life there I don't believe there's any institution that can separate in between me and God and I don't believe that I need to go to anyone else that I don't believe that I need to I should go to other people to help minister into my life but I do not have to yeah do you believe that God took on human flesh and became fully man yes okay did he need to do that now that that's a complicated question because if you ask me in the terms of God's character and how he would act and whether it be consistent with his character I believe so because he promises through prophecy that he would save us from our sins like the there's very clear prophecy and all that and we know by God's nature he's not gonna lie and he's gonna hold his promise so if that's how God was going to do it at that point then he would have had to do it I agree with you that if God makes a promise he will keep his promise now the question is did God have to of necessity make a promise to save us honestly I can't speak authoritative Leon that at all and just my instinct in this is to say no that's the correct answer God is infinite in every perfection his will is free concerning those things which are beneath him but his will is not free concerning those things that are equal to him so the three persons of the Trinity and those things that are above him and there's nothing above him okay so he is free when he acts outside of the Trinity okay so everything that he does in Salvation history he does freely Jesus Christ did not have to incarnate and suffer and die for you and for me and for our sins but he chose to he freely chose to do that and he did not have to take flesh from the Virgin Mary but he chose to do that and his same thing with the Holy Roman Catholic Church and with the Pope and the bishops who teach in union with the Pope he did not need to humble himself and humiliate himself but when he ascended into heaven he said to his disciples who were sad to see him go he said listen it's better for you that I go because if I don't go I won't send you the Holy Spirit which will guide the church into all truth the Holy Spirit is the soul of the Holy Roman Catholic Church and as Saint Agustin said you have the Holy Spirit you Christians but only to the extent that you love the Holy Roman Catholic Church so there is a direct connection between the spouse of Mary and the Holy Roman Catholic Church Mary is still married to the Holy Spirit that Union has not been broken there's no divorce in heaven so she's up in heaven with her spouse the Holy Spirit with her father God the Father and with her son the Incarnate Word so don't forget that these are not childish fables that we've invented these are realities of the economy of salvation and God was free to do what he wanted to do he was not obliged to come and save us but he did come and save us and yes it is bewildering yes it is perplexing yes it is humiliating and embarrassing to be Catholic but that's the reality that God is set up and so we are obliged to get to know the church to love the church to join the church and to persist in our faith until the very end so that we can be with God forever okay thank you for your TED talk okay so I really wish I had a notebook in front of me so I could have written down all the stuff that I wanted to go into about that first I'd asked you scriptural evidence is there that Mary is the Queen of Heaven and is it essential for our salvation to profess as such she is the mother of God she is a perpetual virgin she's immaculately conceived and she was assumed bodily into heaven those are for Marian dogmas and the Queen of Heaven is not defined dogmatically although it is a doctrine of the Catholic Church that she is Queen of Heaven and she is the king's mother so there's an abundance of evidence in the Bible Old Testament and knew that the mother of the king is the queen do you remember when someone appealed to King Solomon's mother Bathsheba because they knew that the king could not refuse her demands this is a very powerful image that we should bear in mind with the Queen of Heaven the king could not refuse the demands of his love his mother yeah it's the fourth commandment you know respect your mother and your father yes I I see that stick it doesn't hasn't tipped you over the edge into Catholicism okay the next question it's it's it's like okay cool is that it's like that aspect of it it's like there are hundreds and thousands of these cool little things that will eventually fall into place click and then you're back to where you started being a Catholic okay but this time you'll be a Catholic by choice instead of just being culturally Catholic because that's how you were raised this is the beauty of being an adult in the faith and every Protestant who steeped in history ceases to be Protestant and becomes a Catholic this you'll see this time and time again okay how about mortal and venial sins is there scriptural evidence for this sure yeah there's plenty of evidence think of John John says there's a sin unto death and there's this aim that's not unto death right okay how do you fit that into the idea if you've broken one commandment you've broken them all well there's only one commandment it's love right and we can subdivide that arbitrarily in a million different ways but the classic ways of dividing and many of these you find in the Old Testament and the New Testament the classic ways of dividing them our love of God and love of neighbor and we can further divide into love of God and thought word and deed and love of neighbor and thought word and deed so you can have the one commandment the two Commandments the six Commandments or you can have the Ten Commandments where several of the Commandments are further subdivided for example the love of neighbor in can be subdivided into four parts and the love of neighbor in thought can be subdivided into two parts so six becomes ten and if you do violate one of the commandments you violated all of the commandments because there is only one commandment and that commandment is love so the way to think about the distinction between venial and mortal sin is like any loving relationship and we are the spouse of Christ so think of it in terms of relationship venial sin is where you're having a spat and mortal sin is where you have a divorce or a separation or you just walk away completely from your beloved okay but okay hold up let me just try and get what you're saying here so the one commandment is love yes all right and then if you break in one of the subdivision of Commandments you've broken them all yep so how then do you differentiate between mortal and venial sins I just told you it's like in any marriage you can wound the relationship or you can completely kill it so I'm married I've been married for 24 years every day I wound my relationship but every day I take pains to heal those little wounds the sharp words the criticisms the put-downs the impatience whatever okay but only a few times in my marriage have I been in danger real danger of divorce separation whatever you want to call it but as long as we confess our sins as long as we come back to the Lord as long as we admit that we are weak we are nothing God is everything as long as we're humbled in that way there's every chance that we're not committing mortal sin we're only in venial sin and it's easy to remedy venial sins we go to confession we go to Mass every time you lift your thoughts to God you're wiping away venial sins okay and that was a fantastic explanation of mortal and venial sins but how do you rectify the idea of some sins being mortal some since being venial when Jesus says hating someone is equivalent to murder yeah there are murderers who did not commit mortal sin when they murdered and there are people that just gave an evil look to someone and they committed a mortal sin by giving that evil look it's all about the heart only God knows the heart so you have to educate your conscience to know are you committing a mortal sin or a venial sin you it's a personal project you and God have access to that I don't the Pope doesn't no one has access to your heart except for you and God and you might not not even have access because you may have built a hardness of heart by neglecting your conscience right so even you may not have access to your heart of hurts but God always has access so you need to pray to God to soften your heart to give you light to educate your conscience and to give you that sensitivity so that you know the difference between venial and mortal sin evil has no substance evil is not a thing it's a way as st. Augustine famously said evil is a way of doing we are all good by nature but evil by choice it's all about the way that we make these choices so like I said you could murder someone and it's not even a mortal sin given the circumstances because you don't have full knowledge you don't give full consent on the other hand you might go to confession and go to communion and act like a goody-goody but everything you're doing is sacrilegious and blasphemous and you're damning yourself to hell because you're not in the state of grace and you're mocking and ridiculing God and God will not be mocked okay I'm sorry there's just one thing you said that just caught me so off guard that I honestly it just overtook in my mind and I couldn't I tried to listen to the rest of the stuff you said but that thing just kept jumping right back out at me what's the issue you said humans are good by nature that's correct good by nature evil by choice idea of original sin original sin yes we don't have a sinful nature we our nature is wounded but good it's a good nature that's wounded just like when you go to the store to buy fruits and vegetables you can see two apples side by side one is perfect whole and healthy the other ones worm-eaten and rotten and moldy they are both good by nature one of them is being corrupted by sin by evil but that evil is just a lack of goodness there's that hole that's been eaten by the worm or by the mold by the fungus that lack of Apple is a parasite on the good it's a lack of good to say otherwise is to fall into Gnosticism and Manichaean ISM and all these sorts of errors that have been condemned very early in the church I think even you recognize the earliest Catholic councils of the church right absolutely no I counsel when I see a absolutely pristine let me just say that but you're saying that humans are good by Nature all beings are good by Nature Satan is good by nature evil by choice just like you okay Matthew 15:19 for out of the heart come evil thoughts murder adultery sexual morality theft false witness slander that's out of the heart yep the wounded fall at her it's our fallen nature the wounded nature it's called concupiscence concupiscence is the tendency to evil the tendency selfishness the tendency to rebellion the tendency to sin that is inherent in us now that we've fallen from grace in the Garden of Eden so what is the source of goodness God so God made us good Adam any creation was perfect yes but if something Falls from that standard of good that perfect goodness it can no longer be considered good would you say that everything has the same degree of goodness or is God supremely good and other things are less good every bit of goodness stems from God's nature right but what is better in the hierarchy of goodness what is more real and what is therefore more good the stone the plant the Beast or the human do you see a hierarchy and goodness and then being there because the Catholic Church teaches that there's a hierarchy of goodness a hierarchy of perfection and a hierarchy of being it's all based on this hierarchy of being there's good better best if we look at the saints if you compare yourself with Saint Paul who's better you or Saint Paul tell me who has more being who has more goodness who has more perfection who imitates Christ better you are st. Paul who imitates Christ better me or Saint Paul that's right do you remember when Paul said imitate me because I imitate Christ you remember that absolutely and I say Paul imitates Christ better better than you do okay so you see it you see a hierarchy of being now no that's not the question that you asked me crisis better but Paul and Paul was better than you but you don't see a hierarchy of being there I never said Paul was better than me I said Paul imitates Christ more than I do I didn't say that Paul was better than me is it better to imitate Christ yes or no absolutely okay but does that change who we are as a person and made in the image of God there is a process of deification we need to die to self and live unto Christ like st. Paul did right are you doing that better than Paul er or less wealth and Paul so there's a hierarchy here there's a growth right we need to die to self and live in Christ so we need to acknowledge this process of deification otherwise we're just gonna remain in our sins right and what are the most foolish of people okay process of deification yes no process of sanctification fine deification no we cannot be God and there's nothing that we can do to be more God okay that's the Mormons believe that there will all become gods in the end and I know that's not what you're saying but it's getting pretty freakin close do you admit that this saints in heaven are enjoying participation in the Holy Trinity they've entered into the Sabbath of God they are participating more fully in that divine life of the Trinity than you are here on earth do you admit that much pulled up you said that the Saints are participating in the Trinity the Saints are within the Trinity yes they're participating in the life of the Trinity this is heaven this is what heaven is the beatific vision okay see I can attest to that I'm not very well studied on what heaven is going to be like i I can't attest to that mmm this is the goal is to enter into the Sabbath of God right the God's rest and the divine life of the Trinity to enter into the mystery of that and that's what heaven is it's entering more and more fully and more completely never achieving the Godhead obviously we remain creatures we always remain creatures make no mistake about that but we are entering more and more perfectly and more and more deeply into the life of God this is what heaven is it's a never ending voyage of bliss and love and communion and yes absolutely that's the whole goal of life that's why they call it the good news because God alone is good and we have an opportunity to turn from ourselves and our selfishness and our rebellion and go to God and when we go to God in a loving way we are united with God this is a deep mystery as st. Paul said God and his church are one Christ and His Church are one flesh is a deep deep mystery and we need to meditate on this we need to enter into that mystery otherwise we're lost so we've got human nature we've got God with his infinitely perfect nature and never the twain shall meet right I'm not God now I never will be God but we'll be getting closer and closer if God willing would make it to heaven and if you don't make it to heaven if you end up burning in hell or let's say that I end up burning in hell god forbid I will be falling away ever further away from God and all of the good things that flow from God because God is the only good he's the source of every created good he is life he is just as he is peace he is goodness he is beauty and those in hell are falling away from all of that absolutely do you consider yourself a young earth creationist do you take the first 11 chapters of Genesis literally as I do I'm not willing to make a public statement on that in any sense because it's inconsequential to the gospel whether it's literal or figurative the gospel of Christ is the gospel of Christ okay when Jesus talked about Noah and the flood do you think that he believed in Noah and the flood as historical events yes okay so do you believe in Noah and the flood is historical events yes okay do you believe in a worldwide flood or a local flood once again unnecessary you don't think it's clear from the scripture um if it clear through Scripture yeah okay God covered the whole world is it clear through science that it affirms that do you put natural science above philosophy theology and God Almighty absolutely not but I think that our understanding of Scripture is supported by understanding of science yeah there's no contradiction possible between faith and reason this is a Catholic dogma absolutely yeah so reason should support faith and what's in the Bible should support reason so if there's a contradiction between the two most often it doesn't tend to be consequential to salvation I think it's very important that we have clarity on the literal interpretation of Genesis there's a book you can read by Saint Agustin on the literal interpretation of Genesis san agustin believes in an instantaneous creation whereas the rest of the early church fathers almost unanimously believe in a literal six-day creation and all of the early church fathers were aware of philosophies and religions which talked about much longer periods of time and different sorts of evolution and change from one form to another but all of the church fathers unanimously affirmed the Christian teaching as reported by Moses in the first book of the Bible all right um purgatory you talk about purgatory sure I'm certain that you're more than that that just bang you're leaping out of your chair at those words so I don't know do you want to just define the doctrine of purgatory sure as I've said there's only one reality it's the fire of God's love okay we pray that we might be found worthy to be consumed by the fire of God's love in other words we pray that we might with our freewill and our reason we might orient ourselves toward God toward that burning fire of love so that we may be consumed by it in heaven and those who orient themselves any other way will have to either be purified by that same fire which we call the fire of purgatory when you're not aligned with God it's called the fire of purgatory and when those are completely opposed when someone is oriented away from God with their will and in contradiction to their own reason they choose to turn away from God those people still encounter that self same reality that one and only reality of God's burning love that fire but they call that hell so it's one in the same reality it's one in the same fire of burning love for those who reject God and tell for those you are imperfectly aligned with God's will it's called purgatory and there's a purification during which time these souls are oriented perfectly toward God and purified because nothing impure can stand for God so do you believe that Christ's work on the cross was perfect and complete yeah it just says Paul did when he said that we make up for what was lacking fantastic so now the purpose of purgatory if I'm not mistaken is sanctification correct holiness yeah okay um let me just whip out my Bible right quick acts 26 26 18 may receive forgiveness of sins and inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in me being Christ Jesus was sanctified by faith yeah in Christ view in his work yeah how then can the process of sanctification be perfect and complete already by faith in Christ and yet it's still necessary to go through this purifying fire attesting to both the same time as either contradictory and keeping the doctrine of purgatory is to attest that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was not enough to sanctify us that we still need something else afterwards who said that it's not Christ's sacrifice that's purifying us in purgatory who said that are you assuming that no I'm assuming that Christ's sacrifice was already enough right but have you ever met someone that wasn't 100% faithful to Jesus Christ even though he died for them uh-huh okay yeah so if there's no difference between the church militant and the church suffering in that regard we are all in need of a savior we are all in need of purification we are all in need of sanctification yes and thank God for Christ that he gave that to us perfectly because it's an act of God in sanctifying us it was done perfectly already there's always a process you yourself are not ready to stand before God you're not holy enough and pure enough to stand before God right now there's a process is there process to being saved you cept Christ into your heart boom there it is yeah yeah I mean I I consider myself to be in the state of grace I am saved if I die I will go to heaven eventually I might need to go through purgatory but I'm saved now even though I'm not perfect now even though there's growth and there's a process awaiting but I'm not asking about a process of perfection I'm asking you a process of salvation yeah all of those in purgatory are saved all of them are saved just like I am saved because I'm in a state of grace but that's salvation accepting Christ into your heart is that an instant or a process it's like Noah's Ark either you're in the Ark or you're not you're in or you're out exactly so it's not always a process no you're in or you're out but it's a voyage like it's just like Noah's Ark like you're in the Ark or you're out of the Ark if you're out of it you're doomed but on the ark you do go on a trip being on the ark getting on that Ark to be saved that you just attested that that it is not a process it's an instant you're either in or you're out yeah well there's a process involved in coming to that decision where yes I'm gonna give my life to Jesus Christ and accept the salvation that he freely offers me from the cross right there's a process coming to that moment but it's that moment that you're saved we can say the same of everything right like either you're pregnant or you're not you can still get an abortion right so when I ask are you saved or are you not it's yes or no you're in or you're out yeah you're out you can have a process leading up to it whatever but the process of being saved is not the process of being saved but that moment of being saved is not a process you can separate it from all the processes if you're uncomfortable with process he's sure okay would you separate it from the process that in that very specific moment of being saved I mean I would just say that by the grace of God I said yes to God so I am saved that's it okay it's not a complicated process right it's like God offers me salvation I said yes how did I say yes by my own merit by the grace of God he gave me the grace to say yes and I said yes and he gave that same grace to those who were burning in hell but they did not accept it they did not cooperate with that grace amen preach it but so in that process of salvation or I don't even know what I'm saying anymore alright that instant of salvation okay Wow back to the point salvation you're in or you're out and that's through when you give your life to Christ then you're sanctified when you give your life to Christ acts 26:18 Hebrews 10:10 so therefore it would also be an instant right yeah there's an instant when your bread becomes toast to but just good luck so but there's an instant of you being saved did not there was an instant when you're sanctified or not pretty sure we can find it I can find it because I go to I have sacramental confession so I know that when I go to confession and I confess all my sins in a simple and honest and forthright manner that I am in the state of grace right so I can know it very clearly I can mark it on my calendar but for you I don't know how you do it um when I dyed it myself and live in Christ did you mark your calendar I can't mark my calendar no what for no one knows when they're gonna die okay some people know this ain't some of the Saints knew okay but sanctification is done by the same process is salvation so then sanctification should be instant and if sanctification is an instant then there's no need for the doctrine of purgatory and it's actually unnecessary and it takes away from the perfection of Christ's sacrifice that's what I'm trying to get at okay well you're just ignoring the fact that there are degrees of holiness right are there degrees of salvation no you're in or you're out but there are degrees of holiness and you need to be perfectly pure to stand before God pure and holy yes and the the only way that we can do that is by and any one small degree taken away from that is imperfect I am as imperfect as Paul is oh you think that you're just as perfect as Paulus no I said I'm just as imperfect the same thing right it's like glass half-full half-empty if it's half it's half right half-full half-empty three-quarters full 1/4 empty right thing we're both imperfect when you compare us not to the same degree though not to the same degree there are grades of heaven there are grades of purgatory there are grades of hell this special thing about purgatory is that everyone in there is guaranteed by the end to be in heaven but they may have a small glass of joy or they may have a large glass of joy it depends on how much they have loved Jesus Christ while they were on earth I think it's getting near our time so I I just like to conclude saying this was very fruitful I really do appreciate talking with you yeah so do you want to are you open to coming back do part two sometimes absolutely I'm open I can do okay but at the end of my interviews I do ask the guests to give the final thought the closing thought just a little message of hope for the listener so just to wrap up the show what do you think you might be able to say to anyone that's out there listening now mm-hmm you know what just John 3:16 all right for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life and 17 for God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world might be saved through him and I just asked me to give a message of hope there's no more there's no message of hope I could give greater than that that's all I want to say love you if you got some questions I don't know all you got to do is all you got to do is all you got to do is