Catholic vs. Catholic - 2019-11-19 - Steven Ray

Author Recorded Tuesday November 19th, 2019

There are 44 episodes in the Versus:Catholic series.

Recorded September 13th, 2017

Catholic vs. Catholic - 2017-09-13 - Thomas

Steven had a mystical vision of Jesus during Eucharistic Adoration a few years ago and found his way back to the faith of his childhood after decades of Atheism.


Catholic vs. Catholic - 2019-11-19 - Steven Ray

Author Recorded July 26th, 2017

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These transcripts are generated automatically and are therefore unformatted and replete with errors.
hello I'm Stephen Rea and you're listening to Catholic versus Catholic so I just tell us a little bit about yourself who you are what you believe and why you believe it well I'm a Roman Catholic I believe Jesus is Lord and the Catholic Church is his University on earth I was a skeptic most of my life I came to believe it late in life in my late 40s I started seeing the philosophical arguments add up and start to make some sense I still didn't believe it but I really got into as much as I could studying history and philosophy and the details of life started coming together and I thought it made sense and long story short I accidentally prayed to know the truth and God gave me a supernatural experience that removed all doubt oh did you have any infused knowledge with that things that you hadn't learned yeah I could pray I talked for hours about what happened in a few minutes after I had started all the philosophy and history occurred I was really my end wit's end and it was late one night and I just I turned to this picture of Jesus that was on my computer and I just said you know is this really true is this really be true and if you've seen that dolly zoom effect that Alfred Hitchcock uses it as movies the world just zoomed by and that felt like I was falling into a black tunnel and God showed me many things it's hard to describe because it's infused knowledge like you say he showed me things from his perspective and it was so humbling that he's been with me my whole life when I thought there was no God or when I told people there was no God he was there and he's suffering at every moment it's so humbling to say every scene in the world his experiencing like a arrow to his heart so he showed me that perspective and later I realized I knew Catholic theology without ever studying it because after this experience I started reading the Bible and the Bible itself it always seemed like gibberish to me and it suddenly opened up like I had been there I went into some Bible study shortly thereafter and we'd be reading through passages and I just felt like I had so much insight about it in a small group of three or four of us we talked about the passages and I don't know how but I just had a deep sense of what each situation was but not the entire Bible that most of the New Testament that's what kind of led me to the Catholic Church because even after that infusion of knowledge I didn't know what church was right so I went to Bible studies and started looking around and in one of those Bible studies or in fact it started coming up that three or four of us would have three or four different opinions so I kept thinking well Jesus somebody must have preserved this knowledge somewhere so I started studying history more in commentaries and I found a few that I really loved and I started noticing well these are Catholic monks here that makes sense because they stayed up in the mountains and study this stuff all the time I thought they were they they really got deep into this that attracted meets a lot and then I watched a lot of debates about the historicity of the Catholic Church so long end there was this YouTube show with Fulton sheen that I used to follow I loved his commentaries and then he would say something strange at the end of his videos that was a weirdest thing in the world he would beg people to come to the church and spend time with the Lord and I didn't know what he meant he was talking about physically spending time with the Lord and I didn't know what the heck that meant and I found out that meant Eucharistic Adoration and I thought that was the craziest thing I've ever heard but I was ready for anything after that conversion experience so I went into the chapel to pray about it and I was about 6 feet away from the Eucharist and I looked up and I saw the face of Christ appear right in front of the Eucharist life-size just the face and I didn't know what to think I thought does this happen all the time was it a still image like a photograph or moving like a real life it was a still image life-size 3d I saw the curvature of his brow he was looking down I got the sense he was on the cross a very humble face slightly turned to one side so beautiful and humble and it only lasted about five or ten seconds and went away and I never saw it again but later on in the week I went out to the same church and I saw this poster that said Divine Mercy and I said I I've seen that face before it's a face of Jesus and it must have been where it came from so then I found out there's a long story and that's an important thing within the Catholic Church the image of divine mercy and even to the point where st. Faustina described how when she had the image painted she cried because I didn't represent Jesus and I know exactly what she means he's so beautiful and humble her and I can see the artist try to capture it but it's very hard mm-hmm have you seen the 3d projections of the Shroud of Turin and does that match your perception of Jesus face uh-huh actually not so much sure I believe the Shroud of Turin is real but it's the image is a little different skinning her face although I know he was beat up pretty badly before that image was taken but it's similar the image that I saw was hard to describe it was a rough shape it was definitely his face that I could match to the Divine Mercy but it's uh was more rounded than when I see on the Shroud of Turin yeah well what you saw was a face hanging the flesh hanging from the face downward and in the Shroud of Turin the flesh is hanging back because you're lying on his back presumably yeah and he went through a lot before that shroud was put on him I know you can see the bruising his yeah there were there was more blood in him when you saw him probably yeah is all suffering going to cease for God once the end of time comes and once we enter into eternity with him Wow I think so all tears will be wiped away but I think I had a smaadahl image of um what hell is is kind of a exhaust for God it's his sense of shame or not regret but it's his way of dealing with all the suffering and like Jesus said it's Gehenna it's like the waste of all that emotion expressed outwards like I think st. Faustina said that L is fueled by God's anger I think of it as anguish so it's there but it's somehow focused to where where hell is so do you remember the exact moment when you decided that the church which Christ built is the Catholic Church and no other Church and that all other churches are in an imperfect relationship with this one true church was it that moment when you saw the face of Jesus during adoration not quiet I still was struggling to know what was true and I saw that image and I still had some doubts and because I was an extreme skeptic for my whole life I really hated the Catholic Church and I believed it propaganda about it it committed all these murders and mass killings throughout history and it's been the worst thing that ever happened so I was still studying the history of Catholic Church and found quite the opposite to be true but I worked up my courage to go to ask for a spiritual advisor I knew I found out that the church had spiritual advisors to talk to and I guess I know now well it was a demonic attack pulling me away from doing that it took all my courage to get that far I think the doubt Devils didn't want to let me go and when I when I finally walked in to those sessions I got lucky with a spiritual advisor he I was trying to rationalize everything and I thought yeah maybe I can figure all this out and this spiritual advisor told me you know God God just wants your heart he was love and somehow that just clicked with me and that's when I knew shortly after that I knew that the Catholic Church which was founded by Jesus and it's overseen by the Holy Spirit and it's been the best thing that's ever happened to the world it took it took me a lot of reading and fact digging to see through all the propaganda against the church the Spanish Inquisition and those things mmm how many years ago did you formally enter full communion with the Holy Roman Catholic Church well I was born Catholic in baptized burn gen 8th grade then I left for 40 years and so it's been about I came back and I asked if I needed to do anything to come back because the church was the furthest thing from my mind and that that was about four or five years ago like that priests told me I was welcomed back with open arms did you get any sort of closure where it's like yes I am in because I was baptized in a Protestant religion so I was not able unfortunately to repeat my baptism but I was able to have the Sacrament of Confirmation which I had never had so that gave me a sort of closure on my a theistic satanism and all the stupid worldviews that I dabbled with I was able to give closure to that and have a sort of ceremony which was also a sacrament and the graces that come with the sacrament but it was is like a very poignant and pivotal moment that I could mark on my calendar did you have something like that when he came back home to the church maybe at confession my first confession when I worked up my courage to go to my first confession that was very distinct yes after I had that conversion experience I had this very real sense of God God was boring to me than the rest of the world and the rest of the experience so I realized every thought and every deed where a denied God was hurting him and I was carrying that with me and so I had this four deep sense of regret for that and there was a priest at the church that I got to know and he was very kind and in fact he's passed away now he he was in a wheelchair at the time and he was very kind in the way that made it easy to go with him to confession I asked him to block at some time so it's automated 30 or 40 years built-up and so we went into a room I after the regular confession and I let everything go very emotional needed a lot of Kleenex and just just that in itself it felt like a cleansing process like I had just gotten out of the shower and he gave me absolution and I just felt like a hundred tons had been lifted off my back and I could breathe breathe again it was so beautiful I can see the beauty of God's design in doing that physically because I admire Protestants that they can do that seek absolution but having that physical real face-to-face contact makes it so much more real what about sin can you talk about how the sacraments prayer and the sacraments and your faith in general how they help you to tackle your sins to grow in virtue and to improve your life morally can you talk a little bit about that oh the seconds well ice mainly see the Eucharist I fully believe in every way the Eucharist is the most holy thing on earth it's the greatest miracle in the universe every time it is raised at an altar and it has a very cleansing effect when I take the Eucharist so I imagined God trying to strip away all the darkness and faults of my heart it's like a merit and miracle every time I go I don't have a supernaturally experience like I've had a few times and if I'm in the right spirit it's very emotional for me to go to Mass because I see Calvary there and are very devoted to Mary and I followed the st. Louie de Montfort's devotion to memory and to the first five Saturdays of confession for five months I'd do it every month actually and that's always a cleansing experience I'm trying to think of the other sacraments besides confession and Eucharist well did your marriage get renewed oh yeah I could see how our lives were careening towards chaos you know we were just trying to do the best we could my wife's a real good person and I try to be a good person and but even with all that we're always you know you're starting to have a lot of friction and you know a ego battles and things and knowing Christ is the only way that I could see that two people could get along I've been married a long time 27 years now and without Christ I don't know what we would do because you know I think two people will grow too I have a lot of friction unless they have that separate love in Christ to both strive for you know is that there's times what I don't even like myself right so the odds of two people being perfectly in harmony together is pretty rare I would think and United in Christ gives you that external like a rule of law that you both can agree to and so everything's been going a lot better since and with my family and children I can see it things blossoming I'm really fearful for what I've had would have happened if I would have stayed on the road of a non-believer very scary to me are your wife and kids amenable to entering into full communion with the Catholic Church eventually yes my wife is Lutheran but she's expressed she will enter into the Catholic Church completely which is a great joy for me and my kids are kind of bound to the world still a good bit and went foot in the church in one foot out so that's my my new goal so there are many things I want to talk to you about I guess just talk a little bit about your prayer life police yeah I'm only about four or five years into this so I probably have an immature prayer life compared to other people but I try to think of Jesus and Mary with me a very visual person I I can imagine them standing with me and where I go and what I do so that really changes the way a what age where I go and what I do I don't watch the movies I used to watch I don't go to the places I used to go to not that I went anywhere bad but just going into a bar with smoke and drinks and things as no place I would take Jesus or Perry so I avoid those if I can I don't know if that counts as a prayer but I I have that on my mind a lot and I think what they would think as I go through life try to serve serve Jesus as much as I can but I do as many rosaries as I can every morning every night I call it the triple crown when I do all the mysteries Mass and adoration in one day wow that takes about three hours I would I would do it all day every day if I could still work in the corporate world amazing it's amazing what's your view of indulgences indulgences well are you aware of indulgences do you make a conscious request for indulgences every day I don't I know I believe in all the church teachings and I probably not using the indulgences correctly but I believe they're valid and I just don't know how to use them it's just to have the intention to gain an indulgence and it's gonna eat away at all the temporal punishment due to your sin and then once you're in the clear once you've been paid off then you can start giving some to your family and friends and everyone else so it's just like this Treasury that you can dip in to pay off your debt and then to pay off other people's debts like making reparation by means of indulgences and the way to get an indulgence is simply to have the intention of getting an indulgence and every time you raise your thoughts to God you are able to ask for an indulgence so it's a tricky habit to get into I'm not completely in the habit but I think about it often enough that eventually I'll get in the habit of always having the intention to get an indulgence for every time I lift my thoughts to God and if you're walking around with Jesus and Mary then you are in constant prayer that's a constant state of prayer so you should just remind yourself once in a while to have the intention to get indulgences it's all about that punishment that's due to your sins and it will really help a lot of people if you can get in the habit of doing that so I would encourage you have to do that I'm very cool I'm going to check into that moment where I've I aware the scapular or and done some novenas that promised indulgences I believe but I tell you I really busy with my work life and family life I'm probably that's the most frustrating part I feel called there's something else but God gave me the gift of my vocation and I'm doing that for now until I can find something that's more close to as well I would join a monastery if I could but why has the priest about it and he said well God gave you your family that's your vocation for now so get make sure that's done well before you screws else up yes one thing that I'm excited about is young Earth Creationism can you talk a little bit about evolution and young Earth Creationism where you stand why you believe what you believe now and if you believe something different before just talk a little bit about the journey there if you would yeah from most of my life I was fully in bed with a popular science opinion and evolution everything that you see in the science journal or Discovery Channel they that was my favorite channel I pricey and every show on it and fully believed in evolution and that cosmos series that Carl Sagan put on and Neil deGrasse Tyson did a new version recently I was fully on board with and in my computer science before Guide when things I work with this evolutionary algorithms so I don't kind of made sense how you could have a random pool that generates a fit solution and things like that but about two years ago I started reading more about computational biology and I've worked on a couple of related projects I do software for analytics and my customers do these projects it's what I got to see how some of these things might add up and when I started realizing how the microbiology works to get from DNA into a specific protein I thought well geez that's like an equip ssin algorithm that you have to go through the folding to get the desired shape that has to be perfect for it to do its function and so random mutations in DNA I thought well that's crazy that's like to get the right DNA that goes through the ribosome and does the bolding that comes out to the right shape it's like a Rube Goldberg machine is just crazy odds and I really started losing my faith in evolution this was after my conversion experience I still believed in they're assumed the evolution was true in abiogenesis that these molecules could come together and do these things but as I like to call it more closely I realized there is no way but these things can happen without guided intelligence so I followed a lot of what's on the Discovery Institute discovery doesn't work they have a lot of good content about this with people that know a lot more about Paula G than I do and dr. James tor Michael Bay hey I think it's so much more beautiful to realize that God did these things you know in India and that's something that's grown just in my few years in the faith just learning to appreciate everything around us that like the fact that a dog is loyal has an unconditional log and a cat enjoys to be headed now for the DNA to be mutated in such a way that those things come out is kind of ridiculous yeah I I see God's designs in these things and it makes me love God that much more especially in the personality and people and things in nature and of course your point about the Immaculate Conception of Mary is probably that funniest thing I ever heard on YouTube hi I mean avid listener I used to do podcast apps but now I listen to most everything through YouTube and the absolute funniest thing in all my thousands of hours on YouTube was when you told Erin raw that you realized evolution wasn't true because of the Immaculate Conception of Mary because I used to think like exactly like him I know he's got a crown where all these atoms come together and evolve into different shapes and you might as well I have spoken Balkan to him I think amazed but it is a beautiful being I think when I realized that Jesus turned water into wine and then I think about how he made Adam and Eve I'm sure he didn't pick two random monkeys out of a tree and say okay you're good enough let's go with you guys so what's your beef with theistic evolution I don't I mean I don't but I don't buy into theistic evolution I think it's ridiculous but obviously you don't buy into theistic evolution either what's your reason why you don't believe it oh I had this holistic view of God that he is a mind and everything in the universe just within that vine so I don't see that I have to refute theistic evolution I just see God's providence in everything from the bottom up you know what I mean so it's not like he there's anything out of his control that he lists let's run wild other than letting creature sin I believe everything is in his control in Providence does that answer your question no I mean is it an affront to reason and an affront to the character of God to preach theistic evolution yes or no of course yes it's a it's like saying that God accidentally allowed this to happen I mean to me I have this very firm foundation that God is it is the basis of everything there's nothing that doesn't happen without his will or his permission do I always be careful to say about sin he allow sin to happen but that's because he respects the will of his created beings to commit those errors hmm the reason that this is so important to me is because I see very few Catholics today who actually believe one of the most important realities in salvation history which is the fall of Adam and Eve so I find it really of the utmost importance that we reinstall this belief in the history of the first chapters of Genesis and I find it tragic that it's not being emphasized in the church today there is the cold a center and a few a handful of bishops speak out about creationism yeah I think you're absolutely right its destructive to the foundation of formation of children to think that their animals for me I'm in the software business I think as an engineer from fundamentals and build up in layers from that and so I wouldn't see it from the historical aspect I see it from the foundational aspect of God's mind is sustaining every atom in the universe so when a human being comes together what is a person you know it's the form from the dust history doesn't happen on its own or by chance that God is guiding everything or allowing everything to happen so from the way I view things if you have that simple mustard seed foundation you could build up understanding of everything on that the fact that God is sustaining everything so how we got to Adam and Eve Eve that's absolutely tragic hell children believe that their animals tend to start to behave like animals so it's a Dennis thing I've approached my daughter's school to see about having them introduce creation and support creation and I'm speaking to the witch school books are using for that and but I really encouraged to see like the Discovery Institute the science as we discover more of the complexities and intricacies of life it's becoming more justified you know hundreds of nano robots running around in cells doing these amazing things and that's something Darwin didn't know he just kind of whitewashed it all say well it just adds up to a new species little changes on to big changes and the science doesn't pan that out he's the Discovery Institute an ecumenical movement in the sense that there are Catholics and non-catholics monotheists of different stripes or what is it made up of in terms of religious adherents yeah it's got a mix of Protestants and Catholics and even I think some non-believers are just realizing this is pretty miraculous of this life that's around us and I think that living in God's providence he's struck the right line mark of delineation to say let's not make this a religious movement let's base it on science alone to show that there's machines running around your body inside your cells I think Richard Dawkins even admitted that it does appear that some alien intelligence seems to have created this but I guess Richard Dawkins hasn't thought about the infinite regress which that would lead me to think that another yeah what about Christian unity what's your vision what's your hope what's your fear when it comes to Christians getting together particularly the Catholic and the Orthodox as a start but then right on down through the Protestant denominations and can you just talk a little bit about that spectrum there I see the role that why God allows these factions to kind of split off the way the world just fallen I see it it's kind of an on-ramp or an off-ramp through the full faith otherwise if we didn't have that there'd be this giant step into Catholicism that people would just maybe not be able to take but I really struggle with the thought of people going to hell and not being able to face God and I wonder you know how Protestants will be able to do that you know if you know what their heart and I can't judge their heart but maybe it's mixed feelings like I mean I'm in all that they can keep the faith without the sacraments of the Eucharist I mean it's amazing to me like the greatest gift in the universe is right there but they don't have it but they have a strong belief and that they do good things so I have this image of God's judgment it isn't really as much God judging its whether or not they can stand God's truth you know what the invincible ignorance and all if they didn't know better I guess they can stand to God's truth and maybe in a way that Catholics are disadvantaged because we'd be given the truth and we usually don't live up to it so maybe things are harder for us what do you think of Mary's role in Christian unity can you talk a little bit about the Protestants and how they treat marry some treat her just as a throwaway vessel for the Incarnation others say the Rosary there are Protestants now that are saying the rosary so there's a whole spectrum of levels of respect for our lady can you just talk a little bit about her role in Christian unity from your perspective please yeah I wish everyone knew how much Mary his she's our mother she's the mother of every person and it's so beautiful I I see the whole Bible and our story of salvation kind of threw Mary as what sound I guess an offensive to a Protestant but it's really so beautiful that the battle will be to preen good and evil isn't so much between God and the devil God could destroy the devil at every moment but it's really about God's saving mankind and the one person who is free from sin is Mary and she's leading the battle for us and we're born of her I don't know if this makes sense but III see her as the lead at the front of humanity salvation that God ordained in the same way of in the Old Testament the Jews carried the ark in front I see her in that way as the vessel that was dispensing the graces that we all can use to win the battle well there's an imagery in the Book of Revelation I think that you're bringing to mind what's the whole Bible I see it this way that at the beginning in Genesis 3 you have got studying em natee between the devil and the woman so okay these are the battle lines that the woman in the devil at the beginning in the middle of the Bible Mary turns to Jesus and asked him to bring more wine they're out of wine I think that that was the intercession that brought grace to humanity and of course Jesus is the ultimate source of grace that helps humanity win this battle against the devil God is rooting for us to win but that we have to win on our own free will and of course revelations wraps that up you know the woman clothed in the Sun I kind of see as a bookmark Mary front to back and in the middle of the Bible as if the Bible you know really follows to her story over the humanity's story not so much God whose infinite we don't understand every infant thing about God but we understand our own human drama which is kind of played out centered on Mary I recently interviewed a nice young man who happens to be some sort of Calvinist I think but he recommended to me that Mary had sinned at the wedding of Cana because it was obviously not God's will that Jesus started his public life but she bullied him into it and this was a great sin and she did not obey the will of God and she forced Jesus to do something that God did not want him to do can you just sort of rebut that from your own intuition and what do you see what why would this young man say that and what do you think really happened at Cana with in regards to obedience and who's wearing the pants in that family and these sorts of questions yeah this is probably one of the main things that turned me away from non-denominational ISM we were doing Bible studies and someone read that verse where Jesus responds you know what does this have to do with you and me it's not my our and a lot of Protestant interpretations turn that into an insult back to Mary which would mean that Jesus is dishonouring his own mother but I knew that couldn't be right which is one reason I sought out other commentaries and I see it's something as something more deep and beautiful in that Mary's fate as mother of humanity and Jesus's fate were bound together which is why Jesus asked what does this have to do between you and I I see God is marrying humanity he's humbled himself to become Wed with humanity through Mary and it's so beautiful that God would do that and for Protestants to turn it into an insult it's really hard for me to say it there was another part to your question I'm trying to remember it would seem to some Protestants that Mary was going against the will of God because Jesus is God incarnate and he was basically saying no and she said just do it and so it would seem that she's sinned by going against God's Express will there that's I just add that it's kind of funny to think that anyone would believe that Mary was talking about beverages at a white wedding she was talking about this she was advocating for humanity for spirit and grace for God by saying they're out of wine and Jesus said that when he came it was the worst generation they had fallen they've run out of grace had love for God and Mary was pointing that out on behalf of Israel and humanity to say please they need more wine it's so beautiful I see here is the intercessor for a mankind in that way and otherwise of course when I go to pick out a Bible I always turn to that John to to see how they translated that and if it seems to come across as an insult in English I put it back down so I use our SVC e or the NAB okay I think you know by now that I place a lot of emphasis on docile and loving submission to the Vicar of Christ can you just talk about the Pope generally and then talk specifically about the current Pope what my perspectives pry jaded by all the decades they spend in the corporate world where I had a lot of good and bad bosses there was a CEO of a company that wouldn't agree with but the job required obedience so the Catholic hierarchy he comes very naturally to me that in that way and you know of course Peter denied Jesus three times so I very low expectations of hope I don't have the grace that you seem to have to have this admiration for some Pope's that you do i I do get goosebumps when I hear certain Pope speak like john paul ii i don't get that sense from the current pope yeah i think you know that i'm not really concerned about his stepping into the world with the environmentalism and all these crazy things and I didn't even say the word Christ when he spoke at the word UN maybe once or twice I just can't understand why the Pope would go on a stage and not speak about Christ to a big audience um and Inter instead it's been a yeah thirty minutes talking about the environment or something I bet I trust in God's providence that even if we get a bad Pope with it's good for the long run and in obedience but I I feel called to speak out within a limit of my authority if I disagree I think st. Robert Bellah mean spells that out and I'm not a canon lawyer but I think it's brilliant what God did if you look at it if you look all and all of us like sheep or cats trying to be herded the simplest way to keep us United is to have a figurehead you know put pardon my language but to put one idiot in charge he doesn't want to deal with a billion idiots so it's simple to say when it comes time to discern doctor and I'm gonna deal with this one guy you follow him and you'll be okay and Jesus said the same thing when he was on earth to do what they say or do what they teach but not what they do and that's the way I see it what do you make of my strong emphasis on Noah and the Ark as a symbol for the Pope and the church do you agree with it do you think I've put too much emphasis on that typology oh I think it's dead-on and I keep thinking back to every time you say that or someone else says that I think of how God has acted throughout history from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Moses she's always had a line of patriarchs to be the father and teacher for the faith and you know Malachi 3:6 says you know I'm the Lord I do not change so the line of the Pope's makes perfect sense to me that you know Pope Francis is a two hundred and sixty fifth successor to Peter I I see that God is continuing to do what he's always done in a lot of those patriarchs have been bad but they managed to keep the Doctrine of the Faith and I think it's beautiful and there's several other figures besides the ark for the church I think Mary is a figure for the church of course Jerusalem you recommended that I read that book by st. Robert Bellarmine about the Antichrist I finished reading it and it was interesting but I want you to comment if you could about the Protestant perspective on the Pope not Pope Francis in particular but the Pope's in general the papacy I guess we could say can you just talk again in in the context of Christian unity can you just talk a little bit about what the Pope is for the Protestant or the non Catholic Christian what's going on there psychologically and spiritually yeah I think it's another beautiful thing about God's design we does something it's so true it's so many levels when he appointed Peter in a line of patriarchs to follow it wasn't just to have a single point of contact it was to teach humility and obedience because maybe heaven life eternal requires this the hustle obedience and loyalty and having good or a bad Pope helps us learn that here on earth and it's a beautiful thing so God is yeah we're here on earth training for eternal life and so the papacy is something that helps us prepare for that and I see something oddly parallel between atheists and Protestants when they reject the Pope because it's kind of this father word pattern where someone's trust is broken this father wound if you look at Google for that on theater you'll find how a lot of atheists famous atheists have this broken relationship with their father and that causes them to fall into atheism and with Protestants they kind of still had this father issue where they don't want to have anything between them and what they think their relationship to God is or actually the Pope isn't between them he's there to serve then if their Bible came to us through the Catholic Church so the Pope when the church is serving mankind yet they put up this false idea you'll see like them say like oh that I'm not gonna be obedient to that guy you know he's not my daddy he's not my father so both atheists and Protestants that reject the Pope this kind of father issue daddy issue yeah my I'm still astonished that God humbled himself so much throughout salvation history but especially in the Incarnation and being born as a tiny babe in humble beginnings obviously and then all the the difficulties of the ordeals that the Holy Family had to pass through it's unbelievable how humble God is and I think that if we're not imitating Jesus Christ in his humility then it doesn't really matter if we've got the Bible memorized and we can win every argument on the Internet if you haven't at least sincerely striven to imitate the humility of Jesus Christ I think it's fair to say that you might have missed the entire point of Christianity no exactly I I used to joke that was a proof for the Catholic Church being true because God wants humility there's nothing more humiliating than being Catholic once I grew to love the church I stopped using that I've always struggled with the distinction I don't know if it's a true distinction or a false distinction between weak but well-intentioned members of the hierarchy the Pope's the Cardinals the bishops the priests and everyone else those who have good intentions but who are weak and end up doing disgusting things either sexually or financially or whatever and then those who hate God what they have found their way into the church in order to try to destroy the church these are the true wolves in sheep's clothing can we consider the first group that I mentioned those who urges weak are they wolves also are they just wounded sheep can you just sort of clarify for me how strong is that distinction or is it a blurred line or two Satan have both groups firmly in their grips or what's going on there yeah it really hadn't thought about it which is more destructive I think political scientists will say the you know keep your friends close and your enemies closer and that way the the weak faithful are kind of more destructive because the road to hell is paved with good intentions so you'll see like in a lot of churches they'll say you know it would be really nice if we brought in some drums and tambourines and you know they're really serving than a set office their own self-interest in that way because they don't have the full faith and I I do see that as maybe even more destructive than the outwardly corrupt people that know they don't believe and it's hard to say because they think men they've gotten high positions in the church now both both sides I don't know which one is worse well I should say that I don't think the ones that are high up in the church are malicious I think there's a few that falling socially that you know there will be part of a big organization they love the political involvement and the attention and I I don't think there's very many really malicious you know okay okay well when when we read historical documents from the Freemasons or the Communist Party that talk about a plan to infiltrate the highest reaches of the Catholic Church do you think they've had any success with that or no oh yeah and I think the outcome indeed ah the Freemasons yeah rather than writing since Volterra they said whether the French Revolution failed they wanted to destroy Christianity and the Catholic Church specifically pretty quickly through a few decades infiltrated the Jesuits and educational institutions and I saw that happen that us at the secular level too and I think they have a lot of that mentality not so much the organization but the mentality lives on it within the church I think they've succeeded that maybe all levels of the church with it the graying of the faith if you want to name the watering down your watering down the faith yeah this stuff with the environmentalism and social issues I see as an evidence of that okay anything that's progressive and left or whatever pretty much yeah but you don't see you don't seem to see what I see in terms of the right the infiltration by the right and the dangers of the right it seems like you're completely oblivious to the dangers of the right no what you mean by the right those who are emphasizing the good old days and how the current Pope is horrible and we should go back to the good old days when we had strong faithful conservative Pope's and everything was rosy right oh I I don't I don't have that rosy view I guess some people do that everything was perfect before the Vatican - I I don't have that idealistic view I do see like I don't know if conservative is the right word for it but like people have fan large families that work in business that have to hold to prudence and fortitude that whatever that is if you call it conservative I see that I I'm in that vein and maybe it gets tainted with the right well I have a lot of not a lot but I do have friends online like on social media and stuff like that who are bombarding me every day with anti Pope Francis propaganda and it's mixed in with a whole bunch of traditional teachings of the church like stuff that I love devotion to Mary devotion to the Saints the established tradition of the church and so on and so forth morality the ten commandments and they mix this stuff that I love in with anti Pope Francis Pope lashing and to me that is just as insidious and and pernicious as someone on the Left preaching more charity less clarity and having compassion for those who suffer from same-sex attraction and I recently started following the father James Martin on Twitter and Facebook just to sort of get something from the left side of the spectrum even though I know he's straying from Jesus Christ but I just wanted to counterbalance all the right-wing propaganda I'm getting and I have to say so far I haven't seen anything that's really damning and I like to have that counterbalance but it seems that you would be a little bit more comfortable with the Pope bashing than I am right well yes mixed bag I mean Peter denied Jesus three times so I guess it's not the question of the bashing it's how you deal with it with constructive criticism like I think there's a constructive way to do it in charity and then there's a destructive way and I would agree that gossip and clamoring is a destructive and divisive but there's a unifying way to do it and that's where I would like to believe that I am and you know we had the Apache mama symbols in the Vatican or in one of the churches next to the Vatican and I I think it's incumbent upon a faithful Catholic to voice objection and I don't think that Pope Francis ordered those things to be there I maybe he did but if he did I would voice my objection I would say do you know the history of these things maybe you don't know it yeah I've worked for so many types of bosses I see these patterns play out so maybe he's just unaware or just going along with the process I don't think he has malice even these sinister actors from the church I really don't think they're out to hurt the church they're out to serve themselves and that hurts the church there's a lot of talk about Trump he's the only President of the United States that I ever got excited to cheer for during election and he won and I still can't believe it I still can't believe that he's the president of the United States but I'm the reason I'm excited is that he seems to be more pro-life than any other president is that true and what's your impression in terms of the sort of the mystical salvation history unfolding in this great nation of the United States of America what is the role of Trump in God's plan for Humanity how do you see that you know God creates these perfect souls in each of us and we tend to corrupt ourselves and the doubles enjoying corrupting each of us and God comes along and makes something good out of it and I think that's the way I think of Trumpy and I pursued wealth and women and all these things and the devil was probably laughing the whole time look at you know you give to this man with so much look what he's done with it and God was just probably just biding his time and he said wait and see I'm gonna have a place for him in time where it's gonna fit just perfectly into what's needed you know being a brash loudmouth I think I think it's the only thing that could survived in DC to stand up to the corruption and with all his flaws it was perfect what we needed I think is most pro-life president and has a lot of other qualities and yes some faults too but I don't think anybody more Christian or Catholic could have gotten elected in the u.s. it was amazing III think it was a divine providence that got him elected he's that has added an unpopular opinion down where you are oh no it's pretty pretty common amongst people I know that shock to the rest of the world was that they saw his flaws and they don't understand non-christians don't understand that this forgiveness and mercy that God has that he sees our flaws and uses them they expect somebody perfect or pretending to be perfect I think it's better to have acknowledged one's false flaws so what do you you don't know Donald Trump as a man you don't know him personally but are you under the impression that he's getting more religious as he gets older I mean you've already alluded to the fact that he must be but can you talk about some sort of hints or clues that maybe he believes in God maybe he's Christian maybe he worships other than just sort of some sort of card-carrying allegiance to a Methodist Church or something like that well there's a lot of nondenomination of Angelico's that are praying for me I just seem to see that effects of that he seems to be a true believer and what he says and what he does I can he shows great love further people that serve the country and others I see this humanity in hand that he's not freaking it he doesn't think about it he just says it I love that and that's one good sign that I think he does have true faith that's a shame that he doesn't realize the other side of faith with I think he still into women a little bit probably and well but his sister is a Catholic George his wife is a Catholic his vice-presidents an ex-catholic and he's a lot of Catholics in his cabinet I think any one more Catholic would not have gotten elected so I'm grateful for that and I'm kind of afraid what's gonna happen the backlash when Trump's not in office I think we're gonna get the pendulum is gonna swing the other way so on a bright and cheery and hopeful note I always like my guests to end the show so what do you think you might be able to say to anyone that's out there listening whether they're atheist Catholic Christian Protestant Buddhist Muslim Jew or whatever what do you think you might be able to say you have you're a skeptic not in the church or don't believe in God I would encourage you to really not sit idle and get comfortable in your beliefs really look for the truth and address your doubts dig deeper speak and you will find knock and the door shall be opened that that took me 30 to 40 years but I finally found the truth and if you pursue it with an open heart and invert you I'm confident that God will connect with you he's waiting for you you're not a random collection of molecules got you're a person that God decided to make he looked at the universe and said the best thing that could be is you and he created you for a purpose to be with him forever in