Catholic vs. Catholic - 2019-03-09 - Matthew Murdock Part 2

Author Recorded Saturday March 9th, 2019

There are 44 episodes in the Versus:Catholic series.

Recorded September 13th, 2017

Catholic vs. Catholic - 2017-09-13 - Thomas

In part 2 Matthew shares the story of his first ever Confession as an adult. He is very happy to be back in the Church, but still has many questions and concerns. We discuss a few of them here. More to come in part 3. As always, I enjoyed chatting with Matthew.


Catholic vs. Catholic - 2019-03-09 - Matthew Murdock Part 2

Author Recorded July 26th, 2017

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Matthieu part two so what's been going on since we last spoke my friend okay well I went to confession I thought about it a lot and it was just on my mind because I've heard you describe the relief of burden and I've been feeling very weighed down with my sins and my lack of spiritual growth the last I don't know year a couple years and it just sounded sweet to me it sounded good but my wife and my just my Protestant upbringing just started making me very skeptical of everything and I'm just like oh gosh it's just going to be another dead end because I've been searching for the truth and just finding a bunch of dead ends and a bunch of well-meaning people who are sincerely wrong about things it seems and so I was just like how much has to be another dead end like that I don't know what I'm doing and and that day I'd planned on going I found out what time it was and I took the kids into town and took them out for ice cream and I convinced myself I'm like man I'm not gonna go I'm not gonna do it now I'm just gonna look into it more and you know probably find out that I don't want to do it or something you know it's pretty much talking myself out of it but then we wrapped up the ice cream trip and it was like perfect time for me to go over to st. Teresa's church where I was baptized as a baby over there so anyway so I'm like I'm just gonna go for it now I'm just gonna jump in okay I just kind of had a some longing in me to do it like I don't know I was just interested I just I just I don't know what it is but so I go over there and there's a few people in it's a really large beautiful building big church but it's very quiet I have no idea what's going on I go and there's some greeters at the front I'm like oh so someone I can talk to you know about this confession thing they're like yeah you talked to the priest he's in there you go wait in line I'm like okay I guess I'm just gonna jump in you know cuz I wanted to like talk to someone first but I was just like all right I'm just gonna go for it and you know we sat in there and it was very quiet there's just a you know probably eight or nine they're very quiet but elderly people and they were just sitting in line and and praying it was very somber and I liked that and I had my two kids with me and they're just like what is this place they were like this is scary because they're looking around it looks like the big crucifix with Jesus up there it's just like oh man and all the Stations of the Cross around like the old medieval paintings and stuff it's very beautiful but the kids are looking around like I'm like just be quiet please you know said anyway so we're sitting in line and I asked one of the older ladies I'm like I have no idea how this works what am I supposed to do and she's like don't worry the priest will tell you everything you need to know and everything I'm like okay and then I noticed a Spanish couple came in and this lady was just burdened with something and she was just pouring her heart out to God like doing the sign of the Cross and the you know father son Holy Spirit thing which was very touching to me because my experience with Catholicism before cuz I you know just was how like my family kind of was you just kind of go there like you're checking off a box it wasn't you know well that was my perception I don't know if that's actually how my family was or not but that's what it seemed like to me so and I see it but a lot of people like that like just going through the motions type of thing but I saw some people this Spanish couple especially that were really just repentance and contrite you could tell that they were they were there to worship God and really confess her sins and that was really touching to me so that helped me feel a little better about it too and the Spanish lady could barely speak English but she helped me like find the prayers I was supposed to say and stuff but anyway so I wait in line I was only there a few minutes and I go go in there and tuck this guy his name was Tom he's from India which was awesome I love people from India my one of my last pastors at a church I was going to try to reform church was that guy from India and I just really loved that guy anyways and he he was just so nice and I just poured it us like look I haven't done this before and he's like well you were you confirmed where you you know part of the church and and you're just returning and I said well yeah and I explained to him that you know my last confession was after I was confirmed you know all those years ago and I told him even then I was like really truly confess anything I was making things that probably you know and he was like he was it was great he was just like I have no doubt in my mind that Jesus brought you here and that you're here for a reason and that right there was great I did I didn't know what to expect I thought it was gonna be like sit down my son and confess unto me or you know something just you know I don't know why I was expecting that but that's kind of what I was expecting something dry and wrote but he was he was very tender and it was a face-to-face thing there was no like booth or anything I was like I was just sitting across from him he's just he was encouraging me you know and I and I it was just really cool to hear him say and when he said he's like you can't see it right now but the heavens are opening up got Christ is with us in this room right now and that just touched me man I believed it and my faith is man and so shaky but in that moment I mean I believed it and he said I can't remember exactly what he said but he's like and God something through my duty as a priest is here you know he's he's with us right now and he's just like you can't see it but heaven is opening up here and and it just put me at ease so I I just dumped on him pretty much everything from my you know early childhood yeah which was a lot you know I didn't go into like gross detail or anything cuz I mean I would have but he didn't seem I was like I don't know how much detail I'm supposed to go in here you know it's pretty much every type of sexual sin every every commandment broke in and all of that and and and told him about that and I told him you know I was guilty of murder you know I was complicit in many abortions so and and I was reading some some Catholic stuff and and I saw that that can be grounds for excommunication or that's a mortal sin to wear and I don't understand I'd like to talk to you about that stuff to you to where you go that's one of the things if you go there you might not even be forgivable but I brought that up to him and and he said no and he prayed blessing over me lift up praying God's and then he encouraged me and then the stuff he said afterwards was so great because of my the abortion thing and all that he was like from now on what you are to do is to help in any way you can financially or otherwise children who are you know orphans are in need of any kind or in distress of any kind that I am to give my life to them for the children that that I've taken out of this world that I had no right to out of my own selfishness and just for convenience because I remember back then it's just like I just didn't want to be bothered with a kid or with the girl who I was with it was just pure selfishness and I I believe the lie of you know it's not really a kid and I don't know what I was thinking but there's nothing you could have told me anyways back then that would have changed my mind I did I just sort of like care about anything so but anyway so that that was very touching I mean I feel like that was from God man I really do so he's just like you're gonna do that and he said you need to raise your kids in the faith and then he prayed for me and he's and that was powerful man he prayed for me he told me that he was willing to meet up with me so I'm gonna set up some appointments with him just to iron stuff out but I mean I was so encouraged when I walked out there like you said you feel that like you're on a cloud or something like I felt my because my faith has been just teetering just like this I'm grasping at straws it's it's felt like and everything was dry and whatever but when he when he was saying those blessings on me when he said Christ was present with us right there I knew it man I believed and now since I've left him I was probably an emotional thing because I'm a skeptic I'm never I'm a skeptic man I'm really skeptical but still I know when I left there and when I was there that I believed and I was encouraged and I felt I was forgiven you know like I had assurance of of salvation with God and it was great and then after that I had a hunger for the Eucharist that's like I can't wait tell Sunday spill I can go and partake of Lord sepra the Eucharist you know and and I didn't get to happen unfortunately but I'm still looking forward to it and then I find out my mom you know she's like well were Eucharistic ministers we can bring it to you know as like what I mean you know you knew about this stepmom you know like so it was just it's just really interesting thing but I didn't get to partake of it yet and because of the problems that's having with my wife and she's very very concerned for my salvation and for my soul that you know I'm joining a cult and abandoning the faith which is endearing to you I mean my wife cares about my soul and all that stuff so that's good but so I didn't get to to do that but um but that hunger man is that weird or what like I was just like I wanted it yeah that hunger is natural it's well maybe it's supernatural maybe that's a better way of putting it what brought me into the Catholic Church was sitting at the back of Catholic Church watching the mass and I was just a hunger I just I said I want I don't understand this I don't know what it is I don't even believe it but I want it that's what my conversion was and I was sitting next to a monk who I had met in my place of work I was working in a computer repair shop and he came in with his computer just after I had found God the Father and I said I just found God can I talk to you about God because I knew he was a monk I knew he was religious he said sure come to my monastery across the street turns out there was a monastery across the street and I didn't know it and so I met with him for like eight months but the first meeting we had he took me to the mass and I said I don't believe in the Trinity I don't believe in the Incarnation I don't believe in Jesus Christ or the Blessed Virgin Mary or any of that stuff I just believe in God the Father I only believe in God the Father but I want in to the Catholic Church because I saw the mass and I was moved by the mass I knew that there was something there even though I didn't understand it but if it's okay I'd like to sort of bolster your faith a little bit with two key points there are two key words I want you to remember one is consolation those are all those good feelings and that presence of God and that intuition that you have a direct knowledge that something is happening to me now that is from God it's of God it's godly it's good it's holy that devotion that fervor that piety the mystery and all that good stuff that's called consolation okay it's not only feelings but it is accompanied by strong feelings sometimes okay it can be very powerful it's good but it's also a danger you need to be aware of that that you're getting a lot of good stuff that a lot of people don't get but it's a danger because you'll be tempted to either doubt it like you are or to say well once that dries up then I move on to the next thrill seeking thrills elsewhere so I think you understand what I mean but consolation out the next key word is its opposite which is desolation this is where you feel dry where you doubt everything where you rationalize and you use sort of psychological interpretations to explain away mystical experience or a feeling of devotion or piety or any aspect of the faith right so these two go hand-in-hand and they will always go back and forth and back and forth you might have small periods consolation long periods of desolation and so on and so forth if you picture like in the circus when you're walking on that tightrope what do they have in their hands when they're walking on the tightrope they have a big long bar that allows them to balance right so I want you to think of that bar as resolve and this is where you have a resolution in those times of consolation when the priest says to you I want you to devote yourself to charitable work for children and for this and for that and you're gonna do this penance and that penance and whatever inspiration you get like that or even if it's just quietly praying in bed one night and you get an inspiration from God that long bar that will allow you to balance to walk the balanced life of faith that bar is resolved you resolve in that moment of consolation you say this is the message this is my mission this is my inspiration okay I've resolved now that I'm gonna pray the rosary every night for 15 minutes I'm gonna do it and then the next day when you don't feel like doing it you have that bar in your hand that long bar of balance which is resolved you say I don't feel like doing it but I resolved in my moment of consolation that I'm going to do it so I'm gonna do it these moments of consolation aren't permanent they will come and go but the point is that you have to know that there's another moment of consolation coming and that this is a walk that you have to have firm resolve and all the promises you made to yourself or to God you're gonna keep them and all these inspirations that you had that we're good and holy and just and right and wholesome you're going to strive to keep them if you fall you fall if you fail you fail that's normal right that's an occasion for humility that's where you humble yourself and you say look God what I can do with my own strength not much right so help me help me help me help me so I just want you to be armed with this long balancing bar of resolve in between the moments of consolation and I can guarantee you that if you maintain this excitement level that you have for your transformation the moments of consolation are gonna be very very frequent I've been ten years a convert and I'm still getting lots and lots of moments of consolation adult converts really are spoiled gods lavishing us with a lot so don't give up don't feel like the desolation is overwhelming because God might start to mature you a little bit in the faith while giving you more desolation testing your resolve that resolve are you gonna stick to what you said are you gonna follow your inspiration or are you going to turn away from him you know and if you turn away from him then you're lost so just remember that balancing bar of resolve okay that's amazing yeah I love that so I'm taking notes so it's kind of like you know you have your consolation mountaintop experience in the spirit and then you get into the valley and that's when you stick to your resolve so you trudge along through the valley so I have some disagreements with what I think the some of the dogmas of the Catholic Church are saying so I want to bring those up but I have been reading those books on Catholicism the case for Catholicism and it says that's because you know every heresy is born out of Scripture somebody twisting Scripture and that's why we don't turn to our own private interpretation and that makes sense that would give me peace to think that there's actually one rule out there because that's part of the reason why my faith is falling apart because everyone has their idea of what Christianity is and they differ so much and they're looking at the same verses of Scripture and twisting it one way cuz a lot of its rather ambiguous and you could stack the same verse on both sides of an opposite argument you know what I mean and say oh no it's saying this all notes say that like it like an evolutionist and a creationist looking at the same rock they're like see millions of you people know 6,000 years you idiot and so type of work you know where's the truth so I I do realize that this just might be my finite stupid understanding of things but and I know that you believe in inerrancy of the scripture and everything too so if the church comes up with something that's blatantly against what the scripture says what would you do in that situation there is no possibility of contradiction between sacred tradition and sacred scripture there's no possibility of that in Christ's Church yeah there cannot be right no there cannot be there are very few passages which are officially defined in terms of interpretation so we have a lot of freedom and to interpret there are a lot of scholars that are exploring different layers of different meanings of different passages and the church is a mother that interprets the Bible for us in its essentials and that leaves us a lot of freedom to explore and to interpret in this sort of thing and their conflicting schools within the church and the essential truths of Christianity are so simple and they're so wholesome and they're so clear that mother is not panicking when the children are getting into the weeds with all sorts of complicated interpretations of some obscure passages or even of some classic and well-known passages mother is tranquil because she's the mother of us all and she is the mystical bride of Jesus Christ she cannot air the church cannot air so she's never perturbed she's always 100% confident because she speaks not for herself she speaks what the Holy Spirit tells her to say and she often keeps silent because we in the church we are given the essential saving truths of Christianity and if someone wants to speculate about some of the more peripheral data that is in Sacred Scripture which is holy and exciting and good and worth investigating if someone wants to speculate about that our mother the church is very tranquil and calm and she will not declare on it until she has received the word from her son the word from her spouse the Holy Spirit and the word from her father God the Father so there's a lot of confusion that takes place in apologetics or in ecumenical dialogue between Catholics and non-catholics because people are taking too seriously things that the church has not even officially come down one way or the other about so it does that help you know that that helps and that segues into my next question would be what do I have to believe what's the core tenants of the faith and like if I'm just a Protestant guy and I'm just believing what I see in the Bible as far as what's the distinction there that I'd be missing as a non Catholic and what is what do I have to believe for a Catholic as far as and what do I have to do is there works we explain that a little bit yeah um the first thing you should do is get yourself a copy of the new catechism of the Catholic Church okay you should definitely read that it's got everything in it but it basically breaks down the faith into three categories cult code and creed okay cult yet cult is the worship so like the liturgy and the sacraments and all that sort of thing so you need to believe in the seven sacraments you need to believe that marriage is a sacrament that baptism is a sacrament that the you know confession is a sacrament the confirmation is a sacrament Holy Orders is a sacrament last rites is a sacrament the anointing of the sick as they call it and all the seven sacraments okay and the and and one thing before you get past the sacraments so is it just in participating in these things they're sanctifying you do they impart grace yeah that's what sacraments are those things are a necessary thing only baptism is necessary only about - oh nice man but in the dungeon they're given only what's necessary right like the King just gives them bread and water but because you're not in the dungeon you're gonna go up and eat at the Kings table so there's bread and water at the Kings table but there's also nice meats and cheeses and vegetables and fruits and wine and everything so that's what came to mind when he said I might but you would want all of that yeah so you don't limit yourself to the bare minimum yeah that's nice you want the strength that comes from confirmation confirmation is going to enroll you in the service of Jesus Christ as a soldier fighting for him and having the courage to proclaim the good news without fear of humiliation without doubt you know you know the doubts that you're struggling with now you have Grace's from your confirmation that will revive as you take your faith journey forward there are lots and lots of graces you are enrolled as a soldier of Jesus Christ okay that's amazing yeah so these are Grace's which right now are coming back on fire for you because of your transformation so it's very exciting as you learned about the seven sacraments you will see and appreciate in more depth your marriage the sacrament of marriage and what that means the confirmation the baptism that you had and then of course confession which you can do regularly like every two weeks or whatever whatever you feel is necessary to go to confession and unburden yourself so I just wanted to make sure that you understood that yeah that's beautiful man so can I continue with the Colt code and Creed yeah so the Creed is obviously I you know like we said the Nicene Creed the Apostles Creed you know that you believe in that yeah when I was done with confession he said you need to go out there and pray the confession of faith and I didn't know what he was talking about so I had to go ask that Spanish lady I'm like what is it and she found it for me was so nice but yeah it was the Nicene Creed right yeah yeah exactly and that part about I mean it's got basically an overview of everything I've got a big thick book that talks about that the origin of that the development of that and how things were added to that just to enrich it over time the first centuries and it's basically the core essential beliefs this is why it's called the Creed we believe this is what we believe okay the final piece of the puzzle is code what is the code the code is the ten commandments and all the nuanced interpretations of the ten commandments and you may have heard me talk about this in my in my episodes where I talk about there's only one commandment it's love and then we can further subdivide that into the love of God the love of neighbor that's the two Commandments as Jesus said and then you can subdivide it all the way down to ten commandments and each of those Ten Commandments has a lot of very subtle and nuanced applications in this messy and complicated moral life and all the choices and decisions we have to make in a messy life that we live here so that's a very very rich component of Catholic life which is the code which is the morality and so it's an essential part of being Catholic it is a proper interpretation of the Ten Commandments very very important yes so that the the code basically is coming from the Decalogue the Ten Commandments yeah okay yeah and I wanted to mention to you that the church in the Vatican two council the Second Vatican Council it went out of its way to re-emphasize the fact that yes okay the Pope is infallible the church is infallible and so on and so forth but we are the servant the church is the servant of holy scripture it is submissive to the Word of God the Word of God being Jesus Christ in the flesh and the Word of God being holy scripture in writing okay so we are we are a part of a church that is subservient to the Word of God in both those manifestations that's good because there you know that's a common complaint they say oh they go by tradition not by the Bible and they're just kind of making it up as we go along yeah now did I answer your question about faith versus works no so there is a joint declaration between the Lutheran's and the Catholics on justification by faith versus justification by works and there is a resolution there's been a common agreement not on every point of doctrine but on many important essential interpretations of the words of Paul in different parts of the New Testament where there were ambiguities of different ways of interpreting and what it basically comes down to is that it's been resolved between the Lutheran's and the Catholics at least and their other Protestant bodies that have signed on to this Agreement and so it's largely a moot question it's largely the people that you hear arguing about it today it's just because they don't want the problem to go away they don't want agreement they don't want peace they don't want unity or they just haven't educated themselves enough yet it's like they didn't get the memo yet we are on the same page and the council of trent is one of the most glorious ecumenical councils of the church because it was the Catholic Reformation the reform in response to Luther and all that and they make it very clear that there is nothing that we can do without God's grace we can't even begin to repent without God's grace we can't do any good work without God's grace yeah God's grace is everything amen that's great that you're saying that because I mean they just attack and say oh well you you believe that you're earning your way in but know all these things the sacraments are grace it's not you're doing the sacraments and every time you do a sacrament you're earning a point that gets you closer to God and you can look at the guy who's only done half of that minute like ha I'm doing better than you you can brag you can boast cuz Paul says when there's grace there's no boasting you can't boast the Protestant people that I've been supposed to talk about it they think they think that by doing these things that that you think that you're earning your salvation that you're earning your place in God's kingdom and therefore they would lead to a spiritual pride or licentiousness like oh I can do whatever I want as long as I'm going to confession every week and doing the sacraments I'm good to go I can cheat on my taxes I can cheat on my wife I'll just go to you know which is stupid there's some people who will misuse it that way but that's just because people are dumb you know right for sure I mean we'll do that we would look for loopholes and stuff that's really good man that a lot and the Bible talks about works I know and I've always had a problem just reading it myself I know the Ephesians 2 8 through 10 talks about for by grace you have been saved through faith this not of yourselves it's a gift from God not of works lest anyone should boast for we are God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works that we should walk in them so we were created for these good works but we're not saved by them but that's not what you guys are saying anyway right yeah when you say you guys here you're in man you're in man yeah it's very painfully obvious to me that you're in but for you subjectively there's a lot of doubt there's a lot of turmoil there's a lot of pressure and there are a lot of frankly a lot of demons that are just pulling at your hair to pull you out there's a spiritual battle taking place it's not for gold it's not for natural resources it's for human souls that's what's on the line that's what's precious to God and what's precious to Satan and his demons they want souls that's what they want yeah I love that painting that you sent me those guys going up the ladder and then the demons like sticking them with arrows and pulling them off and do that's awesome man I love it's my screensaver now on my phone it's a it's pretty clear that that is the reality the ultimate reality for every human that ever lived that's the reality are you gonna be pulled down by the demons or are you gonna submit to God and through his strength are you going to continue to walk towards God I mean it's a very dramatic very dramatic I mean it's a choice right yeah but you can't boast in saying oh well I made a good choice because God's supplying you the grace he sent you the message he's doing all of this stuff and he but it's like you got a right you gotta choose to walk yeah or not he's very very very mysterious and if you try to understand why did God choose for me to convert why did I get chosen and I meet converts and they always ask why was I the only one in my big family that was chosen to convert to Jesus Christ why it's very mysterious and if you try to come to an answer the mystery of God's grace the mystery of free will all these things will just boggle your mind it's better to just accept that I don't know shrug your shoulders trust in God and don't worry about it like just go with it you know you have you have a certain amount of faith the objective is not to understand that faith the objective is to protect that faith and to build that faith that's it that's all you need to do that's awesome man yeah the stuff this is this is helping so much and I'm so inerrancy of scripture is you've hammered on on that and one of the episodes that I listen to and I in my reading and I know that's my flaw understanding cuz my wife's like you're just using your little pea brain to judge the Bible is not as having errors but I've seen some stuff in the word where there seems to be errors that like you've ever studied any textual criticism or anything like that are you aware yeah yeah yeah you have yeah it's all the rage it's that's that's the dominant theology today it's discouraging yeah it's very discouraging its dominant today ever since basically the 18th century in Germany it's been dominating and it's the work of Satan really because there were geniuses like literally some of the smartest people who ever lived who were faithful Catholics faithful Christians just put it that way back in the day who were also honest about the fact that there are many many many obvious difficulties in Scripture but they all had faith and they all said I submit I submit to the scriptures why because I believe in the authority of God Almighty and in the authority of the church that Jesus Christ the Godman Jesus Christ established here on earth I believe I see the stumbling stones I'm bewildered by them I'm perplexed by them I'm troubled by them but a million difficulties do not add up to a single doubt if we have faith in the authority of God and if we know that God's infinite authority has been given to us here below in the essential saving truths and we know that God is not stupid he's not going to leave us orphans he's going to lead us into all truth meaning not that we can know every orientation and every position of every particle in the universe no we don't need to know that we don't need to know everything about physics chemistry biology history we don't even need to know everything about scripture to go to heaven we just need to know the essential saving truths and if you think about the peasant the little old grandmother in her black veil going to church day after day after day after day praying for her children who left the faith ask her about her faith it's simple she doesn't have academic answers for every hairy question about theology and biblical interpretation but she has faith she has faith she has more than all of the all of the theologians combined she has faith so focus on the faith I love that that's great yeah cuz I think all that stuff was the start of me kind of losing my faith and then I start listening to the atheist arguments because I used to lie I'm a debate junkie I just listen I've listened to thousands of hours of debates and I would always go in on listen to whoever my favorite little theologian was and I just wanted me to go and just let someone have it yeah you know but then I kind of switched camps like I told you my Christian walk went from one sect to the complete opposite and then I realized how biased my own ears are you know that I wouldn't really listen to the other side at all I was just you know I would ignore in a confirmation bias basically I'd only hear everything that backed up my own presumptions and then filter out everything else that was contrary to all evidence in the country then I started getting me an ear to the other of the opposition and they were trying to use the Bible using reasoning using all of this stuff but it was all this academic in your head type of stuff so then I started getting into all of that and I kind of lost the heart of my faith like the heart part like just because before I couldn't have told you why I believed I just knew it but then when I started questioning and picking everything apart I just sent me into a tailspin but I think that even now the God might have used all of this to bring me back to where I am now because I feel like he's rebuilding me I've fallen apart now he's rebuilding me and I and I hope I really hope that this Avenue that I'm going down now in Catholicism with you like that this is the truth that he was trying to get me to maybe he broke me down on purpose so that I would get to this point where I could just believe something again you know but I do think that intellectual stuff is what really tore me to shreds to begin with but then the question comes why all this confusing stuff like the Bible is huge there's a ton of stuff why even have all of that stuff these weird stories in the Old Testament because I mean why do I even want to read that because every time I started going through those those Old Testament things again I come across these things that just trip me out man like Leviticus 19 talking about if you wouldn't had sex with your neighbor's slave girl without paying him then you have to pay a double fine or something like that but if there's an agreement there then there's like no sin charge there it's like wait a minute that's adultery isn't it and then like the slavery stuff like the Atheist love to be like oh the Bible approves slavery and all this and you know what it really kind of does I mean if you're a Jew you're not allowed to enslave other Jews you got to let them out after seven years but if you buy a non Jew yeah they're your property and you pass them on to your children because they are your property inside and a lot of people in the camps that I listen to you they'll do mental gymnastics and do all these backflips to try and explain all these things away but no it actually does teach that I'm not stupid it does say that we have to deal with that type of stuff so I'm just like why is all that there for me it just it throws me off it's like all I want is Christ and to believe in Christ and to follow him father you know because I'm really attached for the father to I think that Jesus came a lot to point us to the Father and I think that we focused on G and and and tell me if I want to be blasphemous order but if we focus all on Jesus I think that Jesus he was focused on the father more than anything else don't don't you think yeah one of the recent lectures that I listened to by Scott Hahn he's an ex Protestant and he said that many Protestants tend to give too much emphasis to Jesus and not enough to God the Father and the Holy Spirit and that the Catholicism is more Trinitarian in a balanced way I have a master key for you for resolving all of your problems that have to do with troubling passages and contradictions in the Old Testament and in the new it has to do with Matthew 19 where they're talking about divorce and so this is the master key once you learn this one example then you will understand how to interpret apparent contradictions in the Bible basically Jesus said what did Moses teach and they said well Moses allowed us to divorce and he said he did that because your stiff-necked right like he basically said because of the hardness of your heart he granted yeah it was a concession so the church tells us that there is no contradiction in Scripture and yet here's Jesus Christ the god man Jesus Christ in the New Testament saying there's a contradiction in Scripture so how do we resolve that well the thing is that we need to understand that there's reported speech in the Bible that there is an account given of the walk with God where God is cooperating with man in particular the Jews the chosen people and that the Jews the chosen people are cooperating sometimes but a lot of the time they're not cooperating a lot of the time they're stiff-necked a lot of the time they're rebelling and so we see a report we see what's happening here in the Bible and it's showing that even the God appointed messenger even the God appointed shepherds of God's chosen people were allowed by God to make concessions to those people this is mercy this is not some sort of rigid God who's going to say nope this is the way you've strayed so you broke rule number thirteen be there for the punishment for 13b is this blah blah blah he's not he's not like that he's not rigid like that he is working with his people he doesn't sometimes though guys like you know it brings to mind the guy that was picking up sticks on the Sabbath and he got stoned to death BAM God allowed the Jews to stone that man that picked up sticks he allowed them to do that but that's not God's Way we have in the Old Testament a report a historical account of people doing it their way and God allowing people to do it their way and God smiling on that in as much as he permits it because God's will is always done and if God allows something it's because he can bring good out of it right so there's God's Word aiming well and then there's God's permissive will and we see again with the woman caught in adultery that when we see how the Godman Jesus Christ deals with someone that would have been stoned in the Old Testament according to the law that God allowed the Jewish people to implement back in the Old Testament we see that Jesus's mercy and justice are perfect whereas the application and the rules the letter of divorce that Moses permitted the people to give and and the stoning that Moses allowed and all the murders and all this and not the other thing in the wars and this and that some of those Wars may have been just some of them may be unjust some of them may be a mixture but God knows and God is allowing all of it and God is allowing us to look at all of that hot mess that's in the Old Testament and in the New Testament because we see in the New Testament examples of people that think they're following God but that are going astray for example saw when he was persecuting the Christians so we see that God is allowing in the Old Testament and in the New Testament men to be godly and holy and at the same time to be hypocrites to be falling away to be hard of hurt and to be following man-made traditions this is very very very very clear from the words of Jesus Christ in the New Testament that men have made man-made traditions and they are recorded in Scripture so we need to understand right away that when we're reading scripture we're not reading the golden example always of everything that comes directly from God's ordaining will this is what we should do we should imitate how the Jews stone and we should imitate how the Jews abstained from pork or from mixing flax and wool in their garments or the 640 man-made traditions that they came up with it's very very very clear that God is putting up with our accretions and with our embellishments and with our man-made traditions but he did not ordain them he permitted them and that permission that whole story is contained in Scripture so we need to look at this document not so much as an ordinance of what to do but as a picture of God walking with man and how God is cooperating perfectly but we are cooperating imperfectly and it hasn't changed the story hasn't changed we today are the people of God and we today still are stiff-necked we still disobey we still add on man-made traditions when I'm at Catholic Church I know that I'm looking at a certain percentage of man-made traditions which God is allowing they are not ordained by God God is allowing us to be proud and we stiff-necked and to be sinners and to be do all sorts of things that he did not positively ordain but he did permit it and it's part of Salvation history as part of this long dance and this ladder that's going up to Jesus Christ in that icon I sent you it's all a beautiful picture and it involves God's perfect cooperation but it also involves our imperfect cooperation so we just need to understand that to put it into perspective yeah but the the instance of the stoning the guy for the sticks the way that it's presented in the story is that God is speaking in the first person saying you go and get this guy and you stoned him to death he told Moses to go tell them that and then they went and carried it out so it looks like God is the actor in that not Moses making that up himself but in in the word it looks like it's God in the first person speaking saying you go and do this and then it says that they wouldn't obey then they killed a guy yeah there are lots of examples like that and for one example where God says I created evil well it's impossible for God to create evil but here we have it in holy scripture which is inerrant God Himself saying I created evil that trumps every other example and so basically we need to have principles and we need to listen to our mother the church what does our mother say about the Bible what does she say about morality what does she say about God if Mother Church told me oh yeah sometimes God is evil I would abandon Jesus Christ and I would either become a Jew or Muslim or I would try to find a different form of monotheism but thankfully mother church is wise and Mother Church speaks the truth of the Holy Spirit so the the church teaches that God is good god is not the creator of any evil ever and yet there it is in Scripture God says that I am the creator of evil so we have to reconcile that yeah and I can help you with that one is that the word evil is the same word as calamity like a natural disaster or something like that I think the word is raw yeah it's like it could be a calamity right hmm like he's saying and just like he also says I wound and I heal I kill and I give life so he's just saying all this stuff is happening within my sphere you know I and then other passage where he says I have mercy on whom I have mercy you know it's like it's his prerogative I think it's awesome that he's like that because of course he is you know ya go is awesome and God can give life and destroy life and because we all deserve damnation he can let all of us if he wants fall into eternal damnation he is not obliged to save any of us so I just want to say that we should fear God and we should understand that there are worse things than physical death and if God ordained if he positively ordained that we eradicate this village women children the animals and everything else he can ordain that if he wants if that's what's best then that's what's best he knows and just because you've been slaughtered by the Israelites doesn't mean that you are eternally damned those people may have been slaughtered to their own salvation right yeah yep it is what it says so we got to deal with it and I like just that honest approach because we want to worship God as he is not make him more palatable for our selves if we look at the emphasis in the liturgy of the mass year-long there are different cycles of readings a year a year be a year see and if we look at the passages that are emphasized by the church and we look at all of the passages from the Bible which are not emphasized by the church in her liturgy then we have to conclude that there is some sort of hierarchy or inequality in terms of the weight so I think we need to listen to our mother what is she emphasizing and what is she not emphasizing and why why might that be do you trust your mother listen to your mother you know just listen to your mother and that's good that's good and I yearn for that you know cuz when it's all willy-nilly and every man for himself and everyone has their theories it's just so confusing to where it's just it just becomes absurd after a while I love that faith that you have in that and trust in this stuff you know I really I really could appreciate that that's one of the very attractive things of this whole thing was having some authority to be like okay well this is it in that and I'm glad the hierarchy of the text yeah that clears up so much man that's beautiful yeah and we're not becoming unthinking morons that just say oh well the church said it therefore whatever no we are given like I said the very outset of this interview we are given so much latitude and freedom and the church is supporting financially and in other ways those scholars who are investigating very difficult passages and different aspects of the Bible there the church is supporting this work it's not like the church wants to muzzle people that have controversial areas of study the church is supporting and encouraging all areas of study into Holy Scripture because it's the fountain it's the source but when we find a nugget of gold when the church finds a nugget of gold through her children these scholars and what not then those nuggets of gold are collected into the liturgy and they're used as official teachings of the church and the ecumenical councils and the Pope's and everything else and they're elevated but in the meantime the church is encouraging us to sift and to sift and to sift and whatever is sand whatever apparently seems to be sand is left to fall through the sieve but when we find gold then Mother Church elevates it and uses it to further our sanctification and it's all for the good it's growth that's how you grow and learn that's Austin man that's and it's so opposite of what the attack against the church is you know there's no it's just this rigid thing they hand it down and you just shut up and do whatever the Pope says and and my wife comes from the dispensationalist background to where they kind of interpret everything as end times their eschatology you know everything is end times and we're in the end times right now and there's a passage in first Timothy chapter 4 that talks about I can just read it I have it here now the spirit expressly says in the latter times that some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with Thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth for everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected it is to be received with Thanksgiving for it is made holy by the Word of God in prayer so of course they say oh well the Catholic Church requires that you abstain from food on Fridays or whatever or meats or something and forbidding people to marriage so the so my wife is convinced because that's what she's taught you know that well the Catholic Church is doing those and this verse is saying anyone doing this is deceived by doctrines of demons so will you just speak to that for a second and and I mean cuz I I think that Paul was talking to people in his own time warning people whoever this letter was written to the authorial intent was to warn his audience that would actually be reading a letter in that time in the first century to look out for this stuff what do you think yeah yeah and if you look at the history of heresy in the early church there are many examples of the types of things that Paul was warning us against in particular attacks on marriage there were many many heretical sects that were attacking the sanctity of marriage and with the Judaizers obviously in the early church there were lots of questions about food and this sort of thing so there many many different heretical movements that grew up in that early church that are more applicable to the text but having said that of course there are many many layers of Scripture that apply to not only the time that it was written but also to the past and also to the future it's mystical we're not going to understand it until we get to heaven so that's the sort of superficial analysis but the deeper faith based thing all comes back again to Authority there cannot be a Bible without the authority of the Catholic Church this trumps every argument from the Protestants we need to go back to Jesus Christ and his mystical body the church where's the church where's the church and where did the Bible come from and that just deflates every argument that every Protestant could ever make from the Bible yeah I guess my wife and I are getting these heated arguments about Catholicism and the inerrancy of the word of God soulless scriptura you know that that type of thing but it's like who was it that decided what books were gonna be in there it was a counsel of a bunch of Catholic guys and in the Trinity like because I was questioning the Trinity I was questioning the veracity of the word and all of the arguments that she was giving me are all they were all coined by these Catholic guys in the council's like she'll give me verbatim the argument of inerrancy from these Catholic guys and then the people who came up with the Trinity you know in the council and I see it too right I mean didn't come up with it I won't say that but that's when it was officially standard I said this is what the Church teaches everything else is heresy because there were a bunch of competing views right it was the church and she's saying it as authority but doesn't understand that it's undermining her own argument against the Catholic Church when you're spouting their own dogmas to me yeah yep it's very interesting I don't know if you've listened to my episode called the pros and cons of set of a Kant ISM but I go through every council every ecumenical council of the church and I just give one or two examples of the heresy of the day and what they thought and how they became a law unto themselves it puts into perspective the bottle the ongoing spiritual battle is taking place and so in recent times there have been lots of heresies and if you go back through the history of the church there have been all kinds of different attacks and heresies and I think you might enjoy the perspective that you get from listening to these few examples yeah I know I think I love it and I love the history and and things like that as well so the abstaining from foods and stuff do you do you think that that was just too probably battle the Gnostic heresies and things like that that we're going on back then and yet because you guys don't free you guys we don't forbid us to marry like you said marriage is one of the sacraments it's just a priestly thing which I've heard you explain a lot that could come or go really it's not like oh yeah that's and then so there's that oh yeah and and of course the the pedophilia thing and like I said I loved how you said about the priests tiger-like you know I love those guys even though they're sinners and they did something disgusting I heard a guy saying I pray that they burn in hell it's like oh dude you think that's the Spirit of Christ oh yeah they did something bad but you don't want to say that dude and that's another thing you know my wife and our is your wife talking about pedophile priests yes so she's saying that if I become a part of the Catholic Church then I am endorsing pedophilia because the church and I don't know about this because I haven't read about it cuz I'm not all that interested I guess but I guess I should check it out I don't know but she says that the stance of the church that the church was actually hiding these guys from the consequences that they would have had legally and just moving him around like a guy gets busted molesting children then they just move him to a different place where he has no consequences and then basically nothing happened - I mean just got moved around and was shielded from the consequences of law and and things like that and I guess there's a little bit of truth to what she's saying like if if if that's was there - stance like like they were endorsing pedophilia or saying that it's not that big of a deal or something and I know that they would never say that but I'm just saying by their actions they might be doing that if that is true so how would I answer that because I mean well I don't know it's very simple you worship God and God is not a pedophile and God does not condone pedophilia that's it yeah and neither does the church right there is no sin that you can think of that hasn't been committed by someone that was ostensibly a Catholic because if you think about history in the West at least it's dominated by Catholicism so there were rapists there were murderers there were extortionist there were liars and thieves and everything even up to the highest reaches in the papacy there were homosexuals pedophiles and rapists and murderers and extortionists and thieves it's all there but which Pope is more Catholic the one that's an active unrepentant homosexual or the one that is striving at least even if he falls striving to control his passions which ones more Catholic I think that all the Protestants would agree that it's the one that's striving humbly to submit to Jesus Christ and to fight against his weaknesses now if someone is weak is that a reason to condemn them to hell or to throw out the baby with the bathwater no of course not it's just a reason to turn again to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and to pray to strengthen the priests strengthen that bishops strengthen the Pope and a lot of people that complain about even faithful Catholics who complain about their priests or their bishop or the Pope they don't pray as much as they should for the priests for the bishops for the Pope some of them don't pray at all because we know that there's a wrong way to pray as Saint James said in the Bible the reason your prayers aren't answered is because you're not praying right you know I mean we need to pray for these people we need to support them we need to love them we need to get involved in the community we don't need to abandon these people yeah it's because some members have blown it does it mean that the entire institution is false right yeah and in terms of the corruption in terms of people that are maliciously covering up a pedophile ring so that it can continue because they value pedophilia and they don't value Jesus Christ they can be permitted to exist in the hierarchy of the Catholic Church I think the picture is exaggerated in the media and by Satan and his minions and by the enemies of the church I think the picture is exaggerated but I believe that it is possible that there are networks of criminals in the church that are just valuing money or sex or perversion above God Almighty and that is a very dangerous situation that they're in but the devil said to a great priest Saint John Vianney the curia virus the devil said to him if there were only three priests on earth like you holy priests like you if there were three on earth then my kingdom would fall and I could not have any power on earth but as it happens there aren't three you know so he continues so we need to understand that it's not a numbers game when we see the statistics how many Catholics are there we see there billions of Catholics 1.1 or 1.2 or 2 billion whatever it is when we see those numbers we should not think that that's a billion perfect Saints that never sinned we should think that maybe there are a handful of saints in there and that maybe there's a certain small percentage that are very very holy and pious than their sincerely striving to overcome their sins and that the mass at the bottom of the pyramid either are cold and indifferent lukewarm or they're in it for the wrong reasons they're doing it for the wrong reasons they're doing it for the sense of community they're doing it because it gets them ahead in the workplace they're doing it because it just makes them feel good or whatever it is the people that are doing it for the wrong reason God to help them and I'm not looking down at them not at all it just happens that I'm a convert so I'm able to have a certain amount of perspective on the lukewarmness that I see among some other people and of course they're loved by God and they're getting the benefits of the sacraments in the prayer so not always lost it's amazing that's great man and so and when do you think the barb cracked it's more of a familial thing or institution yeah it's the family of God this is what I was just listening to electro family right yeah I was listening to a lecture by Scott Hahn it's this is why the family is under attack good that's how I see it to you and well a body of Christ the Bride of Christ and that's all familial thanks okay so cool would you just give me some practical steps toward personal holiness because I struggle still I I was cranky with my kids last night I was tired and I wasn't gonna do that you know for confession I was all pumped up and like alright cuz he's a sec don't see anymore like and I'm gonna say alright I'm not going to I knew I would but but I felt like empowered you know yeah I'm gonna start attacking this thing but I have fallen into some other patterns of course sins of the heart especially and then making crude jokes with my guys at work to try and impress them I have a real problem with that you know trying to be the cool guy cuz I've always been the class clown cool guy so I'm just confessing that you know to you to that I've been blowing it that way so and I love when you start going off on certain things about that and you're in your episodes about the practices that you do and things that that help purify your heart purify your mind so just a few things that I can practice this week yeah well it's all about consistency and just seeing yourself as a child you know look to the Father look to Mother Church and be excited and happy with every little progress like if you see a little baby how happy it is when it makes some little progress here some little progress there or when it makes a little gesture of love to you when your kids were growing up and maybe they brought you a little dandelion and they thought that this was a really valuable gift it is a valuable gift so focus on the little things focus on your innocence focus on your your smallness how small you are what little things can you do with purity of heart and prayer and the sacraments prayer and the sacraments you have to go to confession often if you don't go to confession often for this reason or for that reason then you could grow cold you need to go to confession need to it's like a fire you're stoking that fire just keep that fire going think of the fire of faith that you have now as just that little flickering flame it can go out it can go out by a breath of wind it can go out by rain it can go out by so many dangers you need to protect your faith and I hope you do keep in touch with that priest by the way you really have to keep in touch with him he's probably busy but to the extent that you can get support and help from him yeah and and and one cool thing about him is he got up I guess when he first came here because he's new to the place and my mom said that he got up and his first deal and he was like your children are safe in this place you know he like he because my mom was said she was floored by that because most no one will even address that no one talks about it you know but he got up there and he's like you listen to me and you take this very seriously you know your children are safe here with us in this place and they will see to that and and I think that's pretty awesome he's a good dude they're that cool yeah yeah and he's dude from India I love those guys from India they're awesome so okay and then you want to pray for me bro yeah of course in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit God I love you very much I thank you for inspiring my friend my brother Matthew with the faith he's had the faith for a long time but as with all humans we need to learn how to know you God we need to know how to serve you and how to love you better always even the greatest Saints always had room for improvement so I pray that you help Matthew to know you to love you and to serve you in this life so he can be happy with you forever in the next there is no unity apart from you God so please I pray that you continue to inspire my faith the faith of all those that I care about and in particular in a special way now I pray God that you strengthen the faith of my brother Matthew help him in his marriage help him in his family help him in his community help him raise his kids in the faith help us all because all of our families are struggling God there's a lot of ugliness God when we're proud and there's division even within the church God so I ask you to heal us heal us from original sin heals from actual sin and bring us into that unity we're alone we can have peace and true justice and love and all the perfections of which you are the source God the source in the summit to which we will all be moving in heaven eternally always learning more and growing in communion with you and with your Saints who are even now in heaven awaiting the general judgment where they will be united with their glorified bodies and I asked for all human beings including my brother Matthew that we can participate in that in that beatific vision of you God so I ask you to smile on Matthew today smile on his journey into the church with all the twists and turns that are going to come in that painful journey give him consolation and give him the resolve to pass through the moments of desolation so that he can grow in his faith and he could be confident in you who are good in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit amen amen thanks brother thank you so much so take care of yourself there we'll talk soon and we'll do part three any time you like and please pray for me in mine I am I have been I I really am appreciate it and I'm really proud of you for your courage that you're showing by moving forward with a good sense of humor and taking care of your family and I know it's not easy you're being pulled in different directions so I appreciate that you can keep good spirits during all of that and keep the faith and keep your doubts in perspective yes I shall man my wife's gone right now we'll talk soon brother all right man god bless you