Catholic vs. Protestant - 2019-10-30 - Nathan Ormond

Author Recorded Wednesday October 30th, 2019

There are 31 episodes in the Versus:Protestant series.


I met Nathan on Facebook. He converted to Christianity about 12 months ago, and he's been reading and exploring the faith with mucho gusto. I enjoyed meeting him and hope to have him back again in the future.


Catholic vs. Protestant - 2019-10-30 - Nathan Ormond

Author Recorded August 14th, 2016

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transcript
These transcripts are generated automatically and are therefore unformatted and replete with errors.
hi my name's Nathan Ormond and you're listening to Catholic versus Protestant so just tell us a little bit about yourself who you are what you believe in why you believe it yeah okay so I'm a Christian I was actually not not raised Christian or anything like that at all and I was adopted so when I was kind of growing up that was my main thing that I was dealing with and I think as a kid I may have even through Catholic friends have explored I might have gone along until they can mass or something like I don't know what the proper term it would have been or what what it was but I certainly at least maybe for a month or so I went to one of those which was quite interesting I think and I think I might have believed in God when I was younger up until maybe around the age of 8 to 10 or something and I became like an atheist really and the education that I got at school certainly heavily influenced that in terms of it being very very secular not a lot of kind of philosophy not a lot of how to think but just kind of naturalist facts that assumed a certain framework to begin with certainly learning about evolution and I do kind of hold to a version of evolution but certainly the way that it was taught gave me a particular worldview or essentially saw people as like kind of like genetic machines who were motivated primarily by reproduction and stuff so I didn't see people as necessarily having any intrinsic worth or value and that heavily again affected my worldview then I made a ton of mistakes and I was kind of an angry depressed stuff like that I start explored various of the worldview so listening to like Joe Rogan's podcast got me interested in psychedelics or yoga or and various things I even read like the Koran everything but Christianity because that seems like the kind of weird one the kooky one obviously you know I knew Jesus didn't exist at everything so I never went to that one until I suppose the the various mistakes I made stacked up in it my kind of lowest point in sixth form okay I started realizing like I needed a foundation for morality and just as I started thinking about these things I came across say like Jordan Peterson and he talked about Christianity is at least being psychologically true and then that got interested in reading the Bible I went along to like a Bible study group on a Friday morning and then heard the Gospels really for the first time started looking into some of the evidences got really interested in the rich philosophical history of in Christianity as well which is really kind of altered my world view in terms of what say morality is or first cause argument from contingency consciousness or all these kind of things because I think before you know if you went back to like 16 year old me I was probably like I've heard you saying you're a solipsist in some episodes and things I think I was maybe even in a similar camp especially after some kind of of the psychedelic experiences and things you know like it's like a big argument from illusion type thing for your senses and phenomenology so yeah I and then I've just been a Christian about a year now and I'm just interested in the whole thing an intellectual level but also I suppose it the the personal relationship with God as well mm-hmm just so you know I don't know if you know this about me but I am a young earth creationist I don't believe in evolution yeah yeah so I don't know if you've come across and John Waltons view of no okay a scholar called Michael Heizer an Old Testament scholar he argues that that first verse in Genesis 1:1 is possibly better translated as something like when when God began when the beginning when God began to create the heavens in the earth and the reason he does so is the vowel points in the Hebrew weren't added until I think it's something like the eighth century and but if you look at the Hebrew text it's an indefinite it's called Bereshit rather than borrow she which would be like the definite which would be like in the beginning and so he argues from that point but he also kind of argues from the syntax of the whole the whole section that it it should be when the beginning but even so we've got em the face of the waters is some kind of pre-existing matter as well so we couldn't say this is necessarily an account of creation ex nihilo I don't think you know based on this line of argument and then the other line that you takes is that the word bharata for that we have is created in the english is actually to do with like functional ontology rather than material ontology because this is how people in Near Eastern cultures thought so when it's talking about God creating it's got a true eating proper function to these things within his cosmic temple 7 24-hour days of creation where everything's kind of given its correct kind of place as it were Adam and Eve the first priests and priestesses in the temple and then the seventh day God takes his place up in his cosmic temple and that's kind of ongoing to this day and there's loads of kind of things you can get into about that I suppose so do you believe in a worldwide catastrophic flood I don't know I don't actually have a position on that at the minute I know that there's good evidence say for example and this is interesting gone you know like Joe Rogan's podcast he often has an is it like you know like people like Graham Hancock on and these more kind of conspiracy theory type people but they're always talking about like say a meteorite strike around what Younger Dryas period is something like that and it's meant to a cause like this global fluid around a particular time I know various cultures have a tradition of recording events like that oh yeah I don't really know what about the sacraments have you been baptized and do you have other sacraments that you believe in and so I was baptized in the Church of England as a child again the Church of England stance is actually you think that parents should be believers and they make a covenant to raise the child in the faith so I have no idea if that invalidates and the baptism or not I don't see necessarily reason why it should but yeah so it's oh I was baptized as a child over because you know they various councils and things you know what one baptism for the remission of sins so I've not been rebaptised as an adult and probably will be confirmed into the Church of England at some point though I don't necessarily know yeah I would not have any doubts about your baptism because the sacrament of baptism is a very special and unique sacrament meaning that even an atheist can baptize you and it will still work as long as he intends to do what the sacrament does so if he has the proper form in the proper matter and the form is the words i baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit as long as he uses those words or even if a woman baptizes you with those words that's the proper form and then the matter is just pure clean natural water right so it's very very very unlikely that the Church of England minister who baptized you did not have the proper intention so I really would not waste time worrying about that but you could mention if it is a concern just talk to them and they'll put your concerns to rest but in terms of the intentions of your parents that's more flirty upbringing and you don't need to worry about that okay yeah yeah sure and interestingly where I was baptized was quite anglo-catholic high church type think and I think those even may be a relic of some sort involved in like it was like a pearly sort of thing that the water was spilling onto my head with from whatever the video so that's interesting cool maybe it was a piece of the pearly gates it was I think it was meant to belong to some and canonized Saint or something do you love in review of the Saints and read about the Saints it's something so I've been I'm doing an interview with Gregory Sadler who's a Catholic philosopher and a nun some scholar oh I've been reading up on Anselm this past week Wow yes been really it's been really interesting because it's not something that is really thought about in within the Church of England you know it's something that's maybe feared and well that was that in the in the Bible kind of thing but I'm I'm trying to approach it with an open mind because I think I'm Psalms about a theologian than me and yeah he seems to be for it so I'm trying no kind of like figure out what it's about and I read he actually didn't like the kind of veneration apparently of them relics and stuff but the guy Edom oh who was with him so when he'd like received gifts of relics and things he'd kind of just give them to eat myrrh this other monk who kind of followed him around or whatever and I think he was more about finding God through the use of his mind rather than the van right but I'm theologically open to it I suppose I'm not opposed mm-hmm yeah I mean Anselm's ontological argument was a really big part of my conversion from atheism oh really but a very background element like I just turned it over in my mind for a long time for years just as a sort of Zen koan and it played a big part and he's one of my favorite Saints for sure and I love his his prayers and meditations I find very very touching and moving so yeah I recommend definitely recommend looking into the Saints the lives of the Saints the writings of the Saints the philosophy of the Saints the theology of the Saints the merry ology of the Saints and what do you think of the Blessed Virgin Mary what's your do you have any inclination toward her or do you have any concerns about how she is revered yes so I think I think if you'd have asked me like five months ago I was far too certain in terms of reformed you know you know like an reformed with the with the beard and 1682 Baptist confession tattoo on your forehead anything as what I was far too confident in that direction and if you were to ask me now I'm not sure like I'm trying to kind of understand what the kind of Catholic position is and it within the Church of England you know there are people who do pray the rosary and pray to Mary and things and there are people who think that that's heresy and idolatry and all that like where I am right now is with an open mind like I get it I get some of the arguments that I've been reading about Mary being the mother of God and who you know like honor honor your mother and father being a commandant for example and they there's some kind of arguments all along those lines blessed and full of grace and things about above all all women or whatever it is but again it's something that I don't understand fully enough to take a hard stance on I get worried because if the statues and things like I you know I love I love the artistry within the Catholic Church and how that makes one think of God and the transcendent and you know like spires that point up and make you consider these things I think it's all I think the art play does play a huge role but I do worry about like statues of I I know there's an argument against it but it's whether in practice people are actually like praying to that thing like you know like with the passion mama it seems to be like close to a boundary that line there so that makes me worry about it but yeah yeah you have to obey your conch and you have to educate your conscience this is the thing that most people neglect a lot of people are happy following their conscience but they've killed their conscience long ago through drugs and alcohol and pornography and sex and everything else if you don't live according to what you believe you'll soon start to believe according to how you live and that's a horrible horrible outcome for any of us because we're we're in a fallen world but you know the the bottom line is Jesus Christ built a church and that church is the pillar and ground of the truth and the Holy Spirit is the soul of that church because Christ when he ascended said it's better for you if I go cuz if I don't go I won't send you the Holy Spirit and that spirits gonna guide us into all truth and Jesus Christ did not leave us orphans and he said he would be with us until the end of time yeah sure I get that I was wondering do you know because I don't what the Eastern Orthodox arguments are against the primacy of Rome I don't understand the Orthodox view but I did dabble in orthodoxy before I became a Catholic okay and I love the Orthodox I'm married to an Orthodox and I've got nothing bad to say about them except that they are in schism they do not recognize the Vicar of Jesus Christ and they do give a certain primacy to the Bishop of Rome but it's not the primacy of jurisdiction and of power and of authority that the Pope has so yeah I don't understand their arguments I just think that they are angry they're hurt and there's politics and if there's anything I can mess up a good religious situation it's politics right yeah so could I ask you is well what would be your position then on salvation outside of the Church of Rome or you know being in communion with the Church of Rome or what's your view on that well my position is the Catholic position which is that there is absolutely no possibility of salvation outside the visible boundaries of the Holy Roman Catholic Church every single human being has to seek the truth find the truth and get into the earth there's only one arc the Catholic Church and the flood of fire that's coming we don't know when it's coming so there's that urgency to get into the arc get into the whole Roman Catholic Church we are bound to get into the church but God can save anyone and Saint Agustin famously said that there are many people that we felt were outside of the church that will be found once we're at the general judgment to be in the church and the other way around also vice versa the church that Christ built subsists in the holy roman catholic church meaning that there are saving elements of the church outside of her visible boundaries and those saving elements are to be found everywhere but most especially in the eastern orthodox churches so you say then someone who dies tomorrow in the eastern orthodox church or in the Anglican Church or Baptist Church they could be saved then on the oh yeah it's God's will that every man be saved that every human be saved right yeah yeah I'm sure I'm just wondering is is the Catholic official view that it's possible that they're saved or is it that oh yeah yeah yeah yeah and we we are forbidden to despair of anyone's salvation but we also need to accept the hard reality that we are given free will and we can abuse that free will and we can choose to say no to God so there are two sides to the coin we need that reality check that hell is real and you can go there I can go there people do go there but I don't want Hitler to be in hell I don't want I don't even want Satan and help but the church has told me that Satan is in hell and the demons are in hell they cannot be saved and there have been people throughout the ages that have said well no Satan eventually will be reformed and he'll go to heaven and there are there people that I've interviewed that believe that and they call themselves Christians but this is strictly and explicitly condemned many many many times over in the history of the church so no I don't believe that Satan's gonna go to heaven that's a regrettable fact but I have to trust in the mercy and the judgment and the justice and the goodness of God that you know even though it's it's a complete mystery to me why anyone would want to go to hell why anyone would say no to God least of all the highest and brightest the most beautiful and most intelligent angel it's a complete mystery it boggles the mind but if that's reality I have to accept that reality as uncomfortable as it is yeah another question in terms of the kind of prank to the saints of Mary why would someone do that when God's available to pray to through Jesus well the same reason I'm gonna ask you to pray for me because I'm close to you we have a friendship I mean it's a new friendship but I'm still not sure to ask you right I'm going to ask you to pray for me is that outrageous and outlandish is that an affront God's sovereignty no it's not I said it's not an I don't mean it in that way I suppose I mean that say if I've got 15 minutes where I'm like right I'm gonna pray for this time before I go to work something and it's like well I could spend that time praying to Saint Anselm and asking him stuff or I could to God like which is yeah like I don't know if maybe it's a silly question but this is what yeah yeah no it's a good question it's a good question every prayer every prayer is centered on God the Father I mean if you read the New Testament you look at how Jesus prayed I mean what prayer to do you give us it's the our Father there's a sort of sophistication that you will grow into with your prayer life where you understand that God is everything you are nothing and even the Saints are nothing even Mary is nothing nothing you know she is nothing but we have this glorious economy of salvation God did not need to incarnate he did not need to take the flesh of a fourteen-year-old girl in the Middle East 2,000 years ago he did not need to do that he doesn't need anything but the fact is that he chose in his infinite wisdom to establish an economy of salvation a church sacraments he chose a woman to be his mother he chose to submit himself in docile obedience and loving obedience to a woman a human being a creature and to Joseph you know Joseph who was a great Saint but who was nonetheless a mere man and he submitted himself to Moses and he submitted himself to those in authority and the Jewish religion he participated in the religious life and he's very humble to lower himself like that and he's got almighty so we should not raise ourselves up above these things that our Lord and Savior was not too proud to lower himself into you know with participation in the economy of salvation and religion and things which the atheist scorns as being beneath them as Satan himself also scorns the fleshly material world and the these material creatures that God created and that's I think that is the primary reason why Satan fell actually he saw the Incarnation he saw Mary he saw how these disgusting and stinky creatures were being elevated by God's grace and he did not like that so we should not imitate Satan in that way we should imitate the humility of God it's amazing breathtaking yeah I think you know I completely get the objection to solar scripture basically because if you were to talk to any Christian about ethics they're not just going to quote Bible verses at you they're going to as an individual take their interpretation of the Bible but also they're going to kind of like apply their reason their experience and uncertain church traditions like you think there was a Pope who said after the Reformation or wire the president's going to church on a Sunday something and yeah yeah that's like a traditional thing so yeah I actually think I'd say yeah Priya Priya respect Torah so that's all like you know I'll go to reference point for everything but yeah we've got the the church and it's it's traditions we've got our experience we've got all reason given by God and we've got to use all these things together and I think that within the Catholic Church you do what you do have a very strong kind of like am like a social epistemology kind of thing so it kind of like the way the scientific method works where it's like you've got multiple points that verify your kind of conclusions so you have a stronger case yeah I get I do get that but I suppose one thing that would concern me is that it seems to be going in say a more liberal direction for example or seeming that I don't know I don't know say say division within the Catholic Church between people who might be opposed to some of the things of Vatican 2 for example or between some of the things that more recent Pope's seem to be kind of saying seems to be very different to say what Pope's would have said a few hundred years ago it is you're kind of thought that the Catholic Church does need to reform in any way ever or that it like how do how do you view that as a Catholic constantly constant reform constant suffering death and resurrection the church is one flesh with Jesus Christ this is a deep mystery as st. Paul said Christ said if I was persecuted you're going to be persecuted if I suffered and died you're going to suffer and die so the church has to constantly be vulnerable it has to be broken it has to be suffering and dying and resurrecting right it is Jesus Christ the answer to every meaningful question in religion is Jesus Christ right so yes the church is corrupted and the church is full of sinners and the church the members of the church are straying but the church is a perfect society it's a dogma of the Catholic Church that the Catholic Church is a perfect society that doesn't mean that each member is sinless it means that all of the means of salvation are there and that it's guarded and protected by the Holy Spirit now you can have horrible sinners as Pope and we've had a few examples I don't think Pope Francis is an example of that I think Pope Francis is a wonderful holy saintly man is he a little bit progressive and left-leaning it looks like it but it's neither here nor there every human being is gonna be a little bit off center right only Jesus Christ and Mary were dead on center you know everyone had a little bit of straying this way or that way a little bit of error creeping in and stuff like that so yeah I'm not surprised if someone is straying if even if it's a pope or the bishops and like I said the wolves among the Sheep weeds among the wheat I just sit back and laugh and I watch all these fools that are getting sucked into politics declare so proudly that they've decided to leave the Catholic Church because of Pope Francis it's like in Jesus Christ and God Almighty they want unity and Satan's in stirring things up and sowing the seeds of division everywhere so I pray for these poor fools on the left and on the right those on the left envisions some sort of glorious future Church where everything's changed to adopt to the ways of the world and then those on the right are like complaining that things aren't the way they used to be so pristine and pure and holy like back in the good old days and they're both taking their eyes off of Jesus Christ and Saint Peter taught us by example what happens when you take your eyes off Jesus Christ you sink right so the main thing is to stay in the center keep your eyes on Jesus Christ and don't worry about all the drama which always surrounds the church because Satan hates the church he wants to destroy it and so I pray for the Pope I pray for the bishops I pray for those pedophile priests who have worked their way into the church some of them may be good men who just have a weakness because of generational sin and others might be infiltrating the church for more nefarious reasons because they never love God in the first place so God help them but I pray for everyone in the church and that includes the the people in the pews that are confused and misguided and I'm not I'm not saying that I'm not confused and misguided and foolish myself but I have supreme confidence in the holy spirit that he is guiding us into all truth and he's protecting his church right that's that's interesting I've got a couple of questions then about things that we might differ on or maybe it's just that I don't understand but in terms of something like transubstantiation know I'm a real presence in communion in terms of like my philosophy of what's going on there but my understanding give a transubstantiation would be that this is kind of like a an Aristotelian philosophy in introduced by Thomas Aquinas to do with like the accidents remains - saying the incidence changes of something like that but then you've also got the ongoing sacrifice of Christ and maybe it's a caricature in reformed circles but reformed people often would say Cory sacrifice on the cross is satisfactory there's no ongoing sacrifice could you kind of talk to a couple things from a traffic stop yeah first of all in terms of the Aristotelian philosophy everything that's true belongs to us Christians and so it's not that we're borrowing from the pagans the pagans borrowed it from us and there's a mystical component not only to the philosophy in the natural theology that goes on in the church there's a mystical component to that but there's also a mystical component to the the sacrifice of the mass when I pray my rosary I'm putting myself mystically back 2,000 years ago at the scene the different scenes the mysteries in the life of our Lord and Our Lady and so that sacrifice of the mass it's a once for all sacrifice and it's being represented in the mass which is by the way happening about ten times per second all day every day right if you think about the number of masses that are taking place worldwide it's like consecration consecration consecration I can't even say it fast enough it's happening about 10 times per second right now as we speak the consecration of the mass and the body blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ really truly and actually present in what looks like bread and wine and now in terms of the natural science if you're hung up on that then I don't know what to tell you I mean if you have difficulty accepting that you're not going much luck with any of the other miracles either I guess but in terms of the representation it's a mystical thing God is not bounded by space and time right so we need to connect on that mystical vertical level for example I'm in the habit of praying retroactively Lee I pray from my past I pray for the past of all of humanity who God is not bound by time and neither are my prayers so I do a lot of retroactive praying okay that's interesting I've not actually heard of that before that's cool in terms of I don't know maybe this is something that commonly comes up so indulgences then the the classic every time a coin called is sold from purgatory Springs so my understanding is that these are actually something from you know the Catholic Church still has the chest of merits yep and so someone who is confirmed in in the church received baptism as well so a certain set of criteria can purchase and indulgences still is that is that breath no you can't purchase indulgences no that's an abuse that's the abuse that got the church into trouble in the time of Luther and before so yeah that's an abuse there are abuses like I said there are wolves among the sheep there are weeds among the wheat till the very end so yeah there are abuses there are abuses in the liturgy even today I've seen many abuses in the liturgy it doesn't always stem from a hatred and explicit and open hatred of God it might just be ignorant it might just be you know it's it's all a consequence of sin original and actual but we just live in a really fallen world and it's a it's a hot mess basically if you're looking for Puritan religion the Catholic Church is not a Puritan religion so you're gonna see a lot of people making a lot of mistakes at every level of administration liturgy theology everything okay so I just want to make that point clear but I suppose what and what actually are they then - so I'm not I don't have like a short version okay so it's like a storehouse of the merits of Jesus Christ and the Saints by the grace of God the church is given the ability to dispense these indulgences and if you look at the new manual for indulgences because there was the old-school way of sort of counting time like days months years of penance that would be an equivalent to the indulgences at hand the new guidelines for indulgences is very streamlined and is very simplified to the point where every time you lift your thoughts to God and a whole pious and devout way you're getting indulgences so if you are giving alms in a way that is devote and that's a form of prayer and you're getting indulgences if you get down on your knees and say a prayer you're getting indulgences if you fast you're getting indulgences because that's another form of prayer if you use holy water if you do any of the sacramentals these are forms of prayer and you're getting indulgences for that so it's just the super abundance of merits that the church is able to give to us and this remits the punishment due to sin it doesn't remit sin it doesn't forgive sin but it reduces the punishment due to sin and were able to reduce and even eliminate completely these punishments that are due to our sins and then we can skip purgatory and go straight to heaven because purgatory is along it's painful and Purgatory's it probably another subject that you'd want to ask me though I'm not sure if but I mean I mean just still along the indulgences line that's not something that happens in my church and terms of reading the Bible it's not something I've come across but where would the Catholic Church say that that comes from then is this like something that the Apostles taught or something that it has been found out through philosophy or there are actually two schools in the Catholic Church one school says that absolutely every dogma that will ever be proclaimed definitively and authoritative lis has to derive explicitly from the sacred deposit of faith meaning sacred tradition and the sacred scriptures but there's another school of thought that says that there can be an organic development of doctrine because we can have a logical certainty that we've deduced one thing from another certain truth and so we can have an organic development of doctrine where this new quote-unquote new doctrine new to us not new to God obviously but this new doctrine doesn't have its source directly and explicitly in the sacred deposit of faith but it was developed and we we as a church as a people as a finite people we have come to grow in our understanding of the logical implications of those things that are established in sacred tradition and sacred scripture but there are two schools on that so the jury's out on that question okay sure so is it possible then that the Catholic Church would say or we've decided that indulgences aren't something we should do anymore or no no no no it's a dogma it's so Martin Luther's point against them I suppose was why wouldn't the Pope just use this to get people out of purgatory if he can yeah well there's nothing stopping the Pope from praying right like if Luther told the Pope hey why don't you pray more that's good advice so is the Pope Frank the same as like receiving all genocide yeah everyone we're all in the same boat we're all sinners and we're all trying to follow God's commandments and to avail ourselves in a worthy manner of prayer and the sacraments so the Pope is no different right but if I had the choice of having you pray for me or having Pope Francis pray for me I'd much prefer to have Pope Francis pray for me you know no offense to you but I just happen to think that the Holy Spirit is right there with him guiding him and protecting him can he abuse that privilege yes he can is he abusing it I don't think so a lot of conservatives think that he is and I'm not a liberal not on the left I'm just a Catholic but a lot of conservatives hate Pope Francis I don't think it's a very Christian attitude but that's where they're at yeah that's that's interesting again what about say stuff that was introduced like like marriage in the priesthood for like practical reasons is that something that's a should be changed on your view in in the Catholic Church that's purely up to the discretion of the Living Magisterium and it's subject to change because it's a discipline it's not dogmatically fixed but in the eastern parts of the Catholic Church we have married priests and in the West for the past few hundred years we haven't had but that could change and it is changing its changing in the Amazon for example right now it's changing and I welcome that whatever the living Magisterium wants to do and if the living Magisterium makes a mistake with pastoral decisions or with discipline I'm not worried about it my main concern is to be obedient that Catholics are obedient to the Living Magisterium even when they're wrong and most especially whether wrong because there's no merit in submitting to those things that are infallibly dogmatically defined and crystal clear those who are on the right like to say well I only follow the Pope on those things that are dogmatically find well you're not getting any merit for that because any can say yes I align myself with these things that I know 100% are absolutely from God and there you know infallible truths that come straight from lips of God any can line himself up with that but only the humble can obey a mere man who's wrong when he's giving you a pastoral directive or a discipline it's much more meritorious to submit in docile obedience to those things where the Pope is wrong and where you know he's wrong so I I cling to that I cling to the human side of the Pope the fallible side of the Pope that to me is much more Catholic than the infallible dogmatic side of the Living Magisterium it's much more exciting yeah I think I think there's an interesting story about Thomas Aquinas when he was kind of like the big man on campus in the Middle Ages and some like Junior Monk ordered him to come and get groceries with him as something and he just kind of did I think it's an expression of his humility sort of thing when he came back and people like whereas Thomas Aquinas bit and the the junior one got in a bunch of trouble because of that and I get it like a I get that it's about this kind of virtue ethics along the lines of sanctification which i think is quite well defined in Catholicism that's interesting I read a book recently called far from Rome near to God if you have you ever heard of that no it's actually 50 testimonies of Catholic priests across the past like five hundred years or so who converted to various other forms of Christianity so it's been an interesting read from that point of view because many said that they didn't have a relationship with God before so that's they spent like em up to say ten years doing various degrees and things in in philosophy even having like theology degrees but hadn't really like read all got the Gospels and then say when they were posted in South America they'd listen to like an evangelical radio station and hear the gospel message for the first time that's what changed them then then they came into a relationship with Jesus and they started to think well you know I'm doing all this kind of like em stuff that the Catholic Church wants me to do but I'm so far from God in another sense in the sense that I don't even know Jesus or the Gospels very well yet what do you think about that kind of thing because I think this is a common product review of Catholicism as well that it's kind of a lot more cultural than it is about saying knowing Jesus and the Gospels or what what do you think it's the most obvious thing in the world that people can get sucked into a hypocritical rid of the Jia City right but everything that we need is in the Catholic Church we have for example in the mass we have the Liturgy of the word where we have the gospel being literally read out by the priest to those who are present and we're supposed to reflect on that and the the priest is supposed to give a homily that brings us a deeper understanding of the Gospel message and then we have the Liturgy of the table where we have the actual body blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ I mean if that's not a personal relationship with Jesus Christ I don't know what is I mean when the priest offers you the Holy Communion he says the body of Christ and you say Amen and what you're agreeing to is that you you yourself are doing a mystical exchange with Jesus Christ his body is yours and your body is his you're giving yourself completely to Jesus Christ but people don't get it so they go looking elsewhere but it's right under their nose and if only they had the eyes to see and many of those people eventually will come back into the fullness of the Christian truth into the Holy Roman Catholic Church I think eventually it's inevitable if you do love Christ then you will love his church and you will seek his church and find his church and join his church but at the end of my interviews I do ask my guests to end the show so just to wrap up what do you think you might be able to say to anyone that's out there now yeah I mean I just say even if you're an atheist or if you've never kind of heard this stuff before to really just revisit some of maybe these philosophical proofs maybe certainly the Bible what the Gospels have to say just read them and see what it speaks to your heart and what what have you got to lose kind of like Pascal's wager if God is there maybe I'll speak to your heart and maybe you'll change your life like it has done if you like it will view if you've got some questions I see and I'll tell all you got to do is all you got to do it you got to do is all you got to do it