CVS Live Guest - 2021-10-28 - The Lisney Bros.

Author Streamed Thursday October 28th, 2021

There are 6 episodes in the Guest:Group series.

Aidan reached out yesterday and then his bro said he might join. We'll just chatted about the Catholic and Orthodox faith(s) with an eventual focus on the Vicarious Atonement. A fun chat as always.

CVS Live Guest - 2021-10-28 - The Lisney Bros.

Author Streamed February 24th, 2021



These transcripts are generated automatically and are therefore unformatted and replete with errors.
hey so we're live i'm here with the lisney brothers how are you guys doing pretty good dave and this is your stream so no it's the lisbon it's the lisney brothers stream oh wow you aidan invited me uh earlier and i was like david doesn't like me he doesn't want me on this again and i was like well he did take some convincing i was like david you want gear and on and he's like ugh i was like come on just for old time's sake it took i guess it took me two seconds to email kieran saying hey we're doing this hey kieran i can't see you i can't see you you can't see me no you all i see is your little avatar now aiden's give me his avatar too it's like you guys are like oh yeah i see aiden i only i mean i always only see your avatar david yeah because my software will only let me do one thing at a time with my camera so uh the good news kieran is uh matthew murdock reached out to me so i sent him a link to this chat yes i hope he comes on i hope so but i don't know i i hear from him very rarely but uh have you guys heard from him no no i'm terrible but i'm also a good friend yeah i'm terrible at reaching out i don't talk to anybody but um to be fair he hasn't reached out to me either so i'm gonna i'm gonna fall back on that one yeah yeah well he did explain to me that so uh your cameras keep popping on and off but that's okay that's weird aidan i've seen you just straight up the whole time right yeah i'm seeing karen i'm seeing karen and i okay the entire entire the entire time now is your actual being gonna be in the in the video are you like um sitting there with your icons and your guitar and stuff or is it just your avatar the live feed folks are seeing oh no no no i they're gonna see my little face down in the bottom right corner uh without too much i cropped it because i thought that i'd be able to squeeze it in better with the guests but so anyway uh aiden i guess i haven't talked to you as much recently so how has been going with your health and uh all that stuff you mean you mean because i had covered twice didn't you yeah um it was fine i was awesome i got time off work and uh you know i got to lay around and watch tv and uh you know i didn't have to work out during that time period too because like i'm sick so it's probably probably not good to move my body and yeah i the first time that i had kovid i lost my sense of taste and smell and that was a real downer because um i didn't even i didn't even take the opportunity to be like well you know what i'm gonna be mindful about the fast now i just like tried to throw the same uh terrible dude down the fat face in hopes that the taste would return and it was just like it didn't work but second time around it was no big deal um it was like a mild headache and uh just like malaise just feeling tired so you know other than that i've been good that's cool and your hospital is it um once you told me i think you told me that they're not too keen on the the job down there is that right still so yeah i got the uh yeah i mean it's one of those things where it's like i'm not personally um i don't feel like morally um over the top about the the way that the vaccination was procured because we're kind of arbitrary about all the medicines that we have like actually so many medications are um produced unethically and i'm like well why are we picking this one to like take a dump on yeah i just don't like being told that i have to do something and actually i'm like did you hesitate did you hesitate yeah yeah and i procrastinate with everything that i do in life so i waited until the last moment um to get it and i got the moderna um it's a two-part series and uh i was kind of hoping that they would forego getting the vaccinations if we were recently sick so i was thinking oh i i was saying i probably have a ridiculous amount of of the virus i probably have like a very high viral as a result of everything so yeah make sure that i breathe directly on patients are you uh are you concerned that you're now subscribed for a lifetime subscription you're gonna have to get boosters the rest of your life or no i not really no i kind of like because um it's very like like everybody likes to stick like the mark of the beast on the whole thing and um but like if it is the mark of the beast then you have to keep getting it and like i won't be in the hospital forever so it's just like well how how long conversation is because like um you know like how many parachutes we all bought or like procured like you know from some how many shoes have we procured from a poor person say that again yeah well i was going to say from a i was going to really go to like china so like yeah production and we don't really care about the the goods that we that we get from other countries that are basically made in sweatshop so why would we um throw our arms up about other things which i i understand i get i get the i get why people are up in arms about it but it's just like like the you know the hot button issue to um to complain about and it just feels kind of arbitrary to me um because most of the vaccine vaccinations that that human beings get are um they're pretty uh pretty sketchy their origins so yeah yeah yeah but for actually karen yeah here we go oh go ahead well kieran brought that a couple years can you hear me again yeah i can hear you again what did i bring up okay kieran you messaged me dad and uncle mark a couple years ago because you were concerned about getting oliver vaccinated with just the regular set of vaccinations and you're right these don't seem very ethical um okay but it was actually a mutual friend of mine tim mining kieran who sent me this uh um i think it was a podcast with this bioethicist who's an orthodox christian and his thoughts on the vaccination and uh it was very interesting i didn't even have to listen to the whole thing i'm like all right sold confirmation bias i don't really want to have to fight and lose my job anyway so bing i'll just uh take it on this guy's word but that's his brutal honesty because it's like i don't know i'm a lukewarm christian well i wasn't i wasn't actually thinking from a christian perspective but just uh in terms of you know um jumping on the compliance train it's going to be a long ride i think but i'm just not going to comply because i i'd rather way worse off than the united states right it's extreme what about kieran what's your take on all that jazz well i i didn't even uh i didn't even reach out to you since the last time well i did but um not since i got sick i got sick like three weeks ago or something like that well you were a fever you were feverish when you were debating the young kid remember that was the so that was the first round of sickness that was a sinus infection turned into pretty severe science fiction actually that night that we got off that live chat my temperature was and for a couple nights after that talk i was still pretty feverish but it was it wasn't anything that was like out of the norm and then um and then like two weeks after that my mother-in-law uh she went to go do like some sort of checkup um at the doctors for some other you know medical issue and it was like a routine kind of thing but they did like a scan for her chest and they found she had um i guess aidan it's called like glass lung or something like that or whatever it's called something like that anyway they found her they found some weird thing in her lungs they were like oh yeah that's indicative of covid and she was like well we just had an exposure to covid and i was tested and i didn't test positive and then yeah you probably tested too soon you get tested again she got tested turns out basically everybody got affected and i was like well i feel fine like uh adrian and i got tested we didn't test positive and then oliver started feeling a little goofy so we took him to his pediatrician and she was like yeah he's got it and i was like well i was just tested for it and i didn't have it that was like two days ago she's like yeah you tested too early wait a couple days and i was like yeah i don't think i'm this is probably just you know whatever um i'm probably going to be asymptomatic and there's nothing actually even wrong because oliver seems for the most part okay and then um that next day that was on a friday that next day on saturday i did yard work and i came back inside and i basically just like felt like i was dying and for two weeks well for the first week it was pretty much the normal stuff you hear about just the um extreme fatigue massive headaches um really bad uh respiratory stuff and then um you know it kind of like moves throughout my sinuses and whatever and then somewhere like in the third or fourth day i just lost all taste and smell completely i still don't have any of that back yet um but everything else got better but pretty much i'd say i think it was like 14 people in our family immediate and extended got in adrian's family got covered her dad is still um home from work because he got he has developed into lower lobe pneumonia her grandfather got it and he ended up just passing away from it like uh last week um her grandmother got it she's fine yeah so so a whole whole litany of you know people got it in the family and for the most part um you know it ran its course about the same with everybody but uh there were a few stragglers who got affected really bad but then again there was also the comorbidities and stuff with her grandfather was like 88 years old diabetic you know heart issues stuff like that so um it was pretty sudden but yeah i mean um do you know what they treated him with in the hospital or did he die at home yeah so he went into the hospital i don't i don't want to give away like too many details we can maybe talk about it private yeah yeah there was some sketchy stuff for sure um yeah and uh but that's just lancaster general health and you know their our local hospital is very um sloppy but anyway um so my opinion on the whole like um jab thing though is essentially what it's been the whole time which is just uh i don't trust it i think that people have to make the decision for themselves as to whether or not you know if they want to provide for their families and they feel like that's the only thing they can do then yeah you know be very prayerful about it be discerning about it and do what you have to do um but if you can avoid getting i didn't think at all in fact don't get and i also want to say about that um about the podcast that you sent aiden that uh that tim said i don't i don't trust ancient faith radio whatsoever um they're completely biased in one political direction and um i think that the orthodox police are going to come after you for saying that no i think that a lot of the people on the ground in the orthodox church are uh in david's position in my position but unfortunately like with most media you're gonna hear the loudest most obnoxious side is the one that's typically wrong and the one that is actually a vast minority so i don't remember the link who sent the link i don't remember that link aidan said it to me a while ago and you said hey what are your thoughts on this it was a link to ancient faith radio is um ewtn there's some good stuff on there but in the past couple years it's it's gone it's gone pretty woke and um okay so you know there's been a big crop up of like actual traditional orthodox content creators well the thing is is that um you know with this kind of stuff they try and pretend like the vaccine is not political but unfortunately it's become an extremely political thing so um they try and say that one position of it is is completely political but that the other stance or position on the on the jab is not political and so because they are a is uh the jab what we're calling it now yeah cause you guys keep saying the jab and i haven't heard that before like yeah i gotta be careful with this few or some fewer syllables yeah okay cool oh yeah the jab guys all right cool also they're deleting lots of they're deleting lots of stuff too for saying you know they have their algorithms so well it's because of the jab exactly such a jack wagon but yeah david it's pretty much it's uh the podcast is rubbish okay sorry but it's rubbish yeah i mean i i just and i also hate this idea that it's like oh i'm a doctor so because i'm an orthodox lay person and i'm a doctor that means somehow i'm in authority on what an orthodox person should do uh when it comes to the jab and i think that it's just uh it's ridiculous they've been canceling tons of uh they are you remember because you make fun of his name all the time because you always make fun of the uh orthodox monks names because you just think they're hilarious but uh i have a tree for pronouncing them so yeah i know so you always get like you always make up hilarious names and it's it's funny but do you remember abbott tree fawn i know i sent you some of this stuff before and i know you've been like oh he's good but his name is hilarious i don't okay i know this dude ever uh super humble monk he's an abbot uh up in washington state they canceled him simply because he said well no i think that um it's dangerous to take this vaccine especially with the little that we know about it and they canceled him because he was being too political about it and because he speaks out against marxism and stuff and then literally two days after they canceled this dude um they come out with all these articles and podcasts on why the vaccine is good so i mean it's just it's not very altruistic in my opinion and i think that uh as much as hearts actually they canceled him uh the the company ancient faith because they're not for profit so they're so that they have some big donors in there that have some pretty uh they have some pretty obvious political affiliations and if they pull the plug and say hey i don't like the content you're producing i'm not going to give you any more of my money then that obviously puts them in a in a tough position so they have to cater to the people that are giving them money i mean as most non for profits go that get corrupted that's that's what happened with ancient faith and that's what people are starting to see because they just keep canning uh good solid holy priests who are just literally speaking about the truth and then they're bringing on a bunch of people that want to resurrect origin and make him a saint and talk about universalism and a whole bunch of garbage and it's just nonsense yeah did you ever listen to that uh universalist orthodox going to heaven yeah yeah it was very disturbing because i thought that was one of my first introductions to orthodoxy and i'm like is that what they're all like no that is the vast minority position it's it's not even a minority but it's literally not even supposed to be a position it's condemned as heresy in this ecumenical council it doesn't matter what part of origin you want to resurrect whether it's the pre-existence of souls or it's uh universal salvation or it's the allegorizing of genesis it doesn't matter it's all been condemned in the sixth academical council and then it was reaffirmed again or it was condemned in the fifth council and then reaffirmed in the sixth council and then you have crazy um orthodox people that are trying to state insane things like origen was a saint and uh like the the bishop baron type stuff like dare we hope that i'll be saved i mean no we don't because christ says that's not going to happen we can have hope and love and want people to be saved but if you're trying to say that satan's going to be redeemed i'm sorry scripture is pretty explicit that that's not going to happen so it's just the the um yeah i guess uh uh hope and desire are two two different i mean because like what you're stating is uh um you know uh we kind of hope that jesus is wrong about his proclamation about um you know how many people are actually like that's because um you there yeah you keep cutting out i don't know maybe my internet connection's not good it's a poopy i'm going to move my laptop closer to me okay oh he's on this laptop somehow um yeah not a good one okay um gotcha can you is it is it not cutting i can hear you now yeah i can hear you now so you're saying that there's a whole bunch of orthodox not a whole bunch you're saying there's a minority of elevate origin as a saying yeah there's a basically what it is is that there's a whole yeah there's a there's a small few of very loud and obnoxious orthodox that are trying to uh emphasize a whole litany of heterodox things that we don't accept as a church and it's unfortunate because it always seems to be the case whether you're talking about the orthodox church or the catholic church or the protestant churches largely speaking that the most loud obnoxious ones are often the ones that are the most heretical so i like that one of my biggest pet peeves about um there's two things in orthodoxy that when i first came in contact with it and i didn't know any better i thought i don't know if i'm going to have to look into this a lot further because if this is true then i don't want to be orthodox one of them was was universalism if that was really as wide reaching as it seemed to be because i didn't necessarily want to be in a church where that was even allowed to be a debate and then the other thing was uh substitutionary atonement because i kept hearing from all these different orthodox theologians and writers and stuff like that like pop theologians the people that you'd hear on ancient faith that oh orthodoxy doesn't believe in uh in the atonement of jesus christ we don't we don't believe that uh christ was a substitutionary sacrifice for sins because oh that's that's evil god wouldn't uh wouldn't do that but i was like okay but that's totally biblical language to hear that so what i what i learned is that actually no it's completely orthodox to teach the substitutionary atonement it's just that we don't believe that god's wrath is what is poured out on christ like protestants do we believe that uh you know it wasn't it wasn't like he was taking on the punishment of god the father or anything like that so but we definitely believe that christ was a substitute for us and that he was an atonement for us and took on our sin and paid the price for it there's definitely a penal aspect to it and there's a substitutionary aspect to it so there's little things like that in orthodoxy that you hear all these like kind of pop things like sometimes like when when like um a good uh correlation for a catholic would be like oh don't you guys believe that everything the pope says is infallible it's like no of course we don't believe everything the pope says it's it's a common misunderstanding that is super irritating um so yeah so unfortunately there's tons of little things like that within the orthodox world that people are like well i thought that orthodoxy taught x y and z and the other big thing the third and most annoying thing is orthodoxy doesn't really seem to uh have its doctrine pinned down and this is what i thought for a little while leading up into actually looking into orthodoxy because it basically just seemed like well they don't really like to define anything it seems like they're just kind of like everything's a mystery which in one sense yes we are big on mystery but we have i mean we have a church filled with a history of uh very accurate and detailed theologians so it's just uh anyway i'm rambling david that's your cue because i don't have anything good to offer i just i wanted to ask you kieran um because i i have never really understood um why it was necessary for christ to suffer because i know that one drop of his blood would have sufficed or even one word or just the thought i mean he could do it he's god he can do what he wants um but i also know there's the infinite um insult of mankind's sin in paradise that needs to be accounted for and needs to be um reconciled or whatever the word would be i guess uh atoned for yeah um so i understand all that but i mean my understanding of why christ suffered so much and died isn't really clear and i think i think the way i intuitively the way i think about christ's extreme suffering physically the way he was tortured and had a bad trial all that sort of stuff um the way i think about it sort of intuitively is that this is what happens if you're patient and meek and humble it's an example it's an example it's an example yeah and then in terms of the spiritual suffering it's it's another example to us of which side are you going to be on are you going to be comforting christ during his torture and death on the cross or are you going to be one of the ones contributing to that that pain and suffering and like if you're with if you're with him you're comforting him and if you're against him you're actually literally torturing and killing him yeah so that's the way i see that's the way i see the death the suffering and death of christ but i don't i don't really understand theologically what god's intention was what was what was the minimum and what was the maximum and did christ achieve the minimum or the maximum price christ definitely had to die um the reason why he had to die and we we say this in the um resurrection hymn on pasca we say christ has risen from the dead trampling down death by death or conquering death by death and that's where you get like the little icxc nika that christ christ conquers christ conquers everything but the main thing that christ conquers his death and the only way to kill death is to kill it with death so christ be because he was perfect he didn't actually deserve um not the punishment of sin which is what a lot of people say oh we're being punished because we've sinned so now we have to die no no death is simply the natural uh reaction to walking yeah the natural consequence of walking away from the tree of life but because christ didn't transgress the law in any way obviously you know he didn't have to die he could have lived and he wouldn't have had to taste death but he took the sting of death saint paul says oh death where is your sting and christ took this thing of death and literally it's like he took the sting of death and injected it in death itself um so yeah his blood one drop could have sufficed to atone for the entire world but death itself would have actually had to have been met by christ who didn't deserve it in order to um take death and essentially have death kill itself um and so now obviously we participate in that so that's the most like elementary way that i could uh go into it but if you're if you're looking for if you're looking for a more extensive dive into the necessity of christ death burial and resurrection but specifically death i would point you to father stephen de young um in his whole council of god podcast um also he has a podcast called lord of spirits that's really good and then another um content creator who's also uh um on his way to be a theologian and he's a biblical scholar and stuff in the uh orthodox church his name is uh seraphim hamilton and he goes by the name cobain the christian and i'll give you these two guys you'll absolutely love their stuff but they get really super in depth with um atonement and that kind of stuff and they put it in its proper context and they correct a lot of the things that are sort of um pushed back too hard against by most orthodox because it's true protestants like if you're talking about calvinism they have a really gross idea of god where essentially not only do do they have a god that is demanding of sacrifice to the point because his wrath needs to be satiated which is really gross like thinking about god being passionate enough that he's so pissed off and angry that he needs to kill his own son not only is that an issue but the other issue is that if it's really god's wrath that's pouring out on the sun christ well number one he didn't pay the full price because he's not eternal he's not um eternally damned to hell christ went down into hell only for three days and all he did there was preach the gospel as saint peter said so he didn't actually pay the full price and secondly if you have god the father damning christ the son or pouring out his wrath and punishment on christ then that means you have a separation in the trinity which obviously can't be so now you have um now you have a separation or a split in the godhead which is nestorian and and can't be a thing so protestants take it too far and say that god poured out his wrath on the sun because he needed to have this wrath satiated and orthodox some orthodox take it too far in the opposite direction and say no we don't believe any of that therefore we don't believe in substitutionary atonement when really it's the opposite we just um we just let scripture say what scripture says there's all sorts of different analogies for christ's death burial and resurrection in one passage we hear that it's like a legal debt in another pac uh uh passage we hear that there's a healing aspect to it we hear that christ is victorious we hear all these different analogies and like any analogy if you stretch them too far you're they're going to break so rather than saying when christ when scripture says for instance in colossians that you know christ uh took our our iou or our our sin debt and nailed it to the cross people are like oh well who's that payment for and then you get certain theologians throughout the church age saying oh he paid god off then you get other people saying oh well he actually paid satan off then you get people saying oh well he paid he paid death off or he paid so and so off but to take it any further than what scripture says in one sense you can start to poke holes in everything so you have to be careful when you're talking about anything theological not to take any of the scriptural pictures and analogies too far so is there a legal aspect to atonement yes is there a healing aspect to it yes is there a recapitulation aspect to it yes absolutely all of these things um is the orthodox position significantly different in any way like a major way or a subtle way from the catholic position on a tournament yeah so it's hard to stress how like severe it you guys have you guys obviously believe in substitutionary atonement but i don't think that you guys believe that for instance god poured out his wrath no the son yeah i don't personally believe that but i don't know what the church teaches i don't think the church i don't think the catholic church doesn't make sense i think i think that you guys um you guys have more nuance in your understanding of the atonement like orthodox does but your main emphasis is on the judicial aspect of it um so classically looking at at catholicism what you can really see is that protestantism largely uh mimics or understood atonement in the same way but rather than saying that humans have the capacity to participate in the redemptive aspect of it or to partake in the merits of um of of you know all that christ did and the saints and all these things protestants would just say well no we don't participate in any we don't get any merits for anything because they don't understand the distinction between merit and um you know payment or or or wages they think that if you say that while we merited something blah blah blah that means that god owes it to us not understanding that merit just means it's like a reward uh you don't that god doesn't owe you anything but because you're faithful he gives you a little treat or something um so there's a difference only in that aspect i think between most protestants um and catholic understandings of the atonement and then with orthodoxy we kind of take in everything so you'll hear the different theories of atonement whether it's christus victor or penal substitutionary atonement or uh the moral exemplar position or whatever and we look at all those and we say every one of those has some truth in it that's you can you can you can read fathers of the church that lean more heavily on the penal aspect of it you find more fathers that lean more heavily on the recapitulation aspect of it if you read saint cyril he talks heavily about the recapitulation theory where christ had to go through every stage of humanity first and redeem it and recapitulate it before he suffered on the cross um and that he he looks at the um he takes more of the christus victor view which is essentially yeah christ conquered death by death and the atonement yeah sure it was there but i mean the main thing wasn't that christ paid a penalty for sin the main thing is that christ conquered death by death so you can find all these different elements without throughout the church history uh history but i think that within the last thousand years from like anselm up i think is when when catholicism classically started getting more judicial with its understanding of atonement uh and we just don't really like look at it like that although we acknowledge that there's an aspect to it that's true to say there's a judicial thing being fulfilled so thanks for that uh aiden i want to get your perspective on what you think the catholic sort of idea of atonement is like i mean you can just say uh you agree with everything your brother said or you can add whatever is different but the reason i'm asking you the reason i'm asking you to do this now is because i've got i've actually got my little book of uh catholic dogma here and i'm going to read a tiny paragraph after you've said your thing and see if it if it changes your opinion at all and see if what karen thinks of it too so what is your basic hunch about the vicarious atonement of christ on the um you're breaking up breaking up um breaking up aidan are you there am i breaking up yep yeah yeah you're good we can hear you now good um no my view is um i i don't know i haven't read my substitution but i would assume that it's a very uh centered um uh centered uh teaching on the whole thing closer to what kieran is saying but kieran and i had a conversation about a quote the other day and so i kind of see it as jesus opened a pathway for all men to follow and it kind of um uh goes under uh the you have to die before you die so that when you die you don't die and um that's how i kind of think about that because uh if i do too much diving into certain things it becomes too scrupulous for me and it just kind of like i just over confuse myself yeah but that being said every time i pop open my catechism um it's so beautifully centered and um i i love i love the catechism i love the most recent catechism yeah i think your brother's looking at it right now i'm not mistaken are you yeah i am oh yeah yeah oh he's trying to get the headstart oh david's going to say this and i need to say that this is wrong no i want to see you i want to see it the catechism um has such a way about like like explaining things that's not like overtly um technical technical yeah so it's kind of like okay like i'm reading on christ offered himself to the father for our sins and on everything i'm reading like yeah i agree with that but there's like so far there's no talk about was written by masons who are trying to uh basically modernism into the whole gamut so i think you should close that book and uh open some father seraphim rose and read to us from that what do you think buddy amen dude love me some father seraphim so uh one of the dogmas we have in the catholic faith is christ offered himself on the cross as a true and proper sacrifice that's a defeated dogma we also have another defeated dogma christ by his sacrifice on the cross has ransomed us and reconciled us with god and then that's the other one ransomed ransom theory yes we believe in that too but not to the death level wasn't it anselm that said that that speculated that um the ransom was paid to satan i hope not that's absolutely nothing to say but um no we don't we don't owe anything to satan but um there's a little paragraph here called inadequate patristic theories of the redemption and it cites uh saint irenaeus of lyon and he initiated the so-called recapitulation theory or mystic theory of redemption and um it teaches that christ as the second adam saved and united with god the whole human race in this view salvation of man had already taken place in principle through the incarnation of the son of god side by side with this theory which gave to the passion and death of christ a subordinate significance only saint irenaeus also expounds the pauline teaching of the ransoming and reconciling through christ's death on the cross so i guess it just it just subordinates a little bit the death and suffering on the cross origen on the other hand changed the pauline teaching of man's ransom from the dominion of the devil to an unbiblical ransom theory um it was origin perhaps yeah he held the devil by adam's sin had acquired a formal dominion over mankind in order to liberate mankind from this tyranny christ gave his life to the devil as a ransom price but the devil was deceived as he was not able to maintain for long his dominion of death over christ and so on and so forth okay others explained that the devil lost his dominion over mankind by unjustly trying to extend his right this right to christ also despite the fact that this error was widespread patristic teaching held firmly to the biblical teaching of man's reconciliation with god through christ's death on the cross the notion of a dominion of the devil over fallen mankind was energetically refuted by ansem and some of canterbury ah there you go so it was the opposite so he fought against it yeah the notion the notion of the atonement i don't know if you mind if i read a little paragraph this is the catholic nutshell here it says there's a there's a dogma christ through suffering a death rendered vicarious atonement to god for the sins of man that's that's a dogma the other one is christ's victor the cure vicarious atonement is adequate or of full value by reasoning by reason of its intrinsic merit that's another dogma christ vicarious atonement is super abundant that is the positive value of the expiation is greater than the negative value of the sin and finally christ did not die for the predestined only christ died not for the faithful only but for all mankind without exception that's an interesting one a lot of rad trads in the kafka church don't believe that yeah but the thing is is that they have a that again because they're importing origin on what that means there's two views of of apoca stasis which one is the correct view and the other one is the false view one says that either a everyone is ultimately going to be in union with christ they might just have to go through some suffering first and then there's the correct one um or then and then b um everyone's just automatically going to go to heaven so you have one with a little bit of suffering one with no suffering and then you have the correct view of the pocket the stasis which is that um all of uh creation is gonna be put back in order and it's gonna be um it's gonna be re-justified or re-justiced meaning everything's going to be put back in balance so that's the correct view dying for all of mankind everybody nobody technically is actually going to stay dead i mean they're going to taste the second death if they're not with christ but everyone's going to be resurrected so that's the correct way to view it is that everyone's going to be resurrected and where they're at is going to be in perfect alignment with what is actually supposed to be the case so that everything is in perfect balance yeah um because again like if you if you take the judicial or the justice view of salvation too far you start start to get an idea that justice is this thing where christ where god needs to satiate his anger and he has to punish somebody he can't let something be unpunished when we would say no god can supersede that with his mercy but also you have a false view of what justice is justice literally just means things in balance which is why when you have the little law symbol you have the statute with the two balancing scales because true justice is not having somebody being punished severely it's having things being put back in order properly and things being in perfect balance so yeah anyway amen to that dave yeah um there's just a little definition here given of the atonement by atonement in general is understood the satisfaction of a demand in the narrower sense it is taken to mean the reparation of an insult so i think that uh is a nice clarification you know what's funny though you know atonement is like a like only a couple hundred year old word does it really literally mean at one yeah there was i forget which um i forget which theologian it was back in the um oh i think it was even after the medieval times it might have been in the victorian era or after um but when they were translating in well i guess it would have been in the in the uh i think it was first in the 1611 king james so it would have had to be around that time i believe don't you know fact check me on that but i know it was around that time um but when they were translating they had no like they had no word for atonement um and so they they kind of got this idea of like okay well there's this idea of being put back in proper relationship to god i'm at one with god so that's where they got atonement from so you get all these like different views of atonement but the word itself is actually it actually i think it's hilarious because it i think it um i think that it it perfectly uh encapsulates the the holistic kind of orthodox view of a relationship with god which is to be in union with him which is what salvation is to be in union with christ so at one with christ atonement i don't know yeah i never knew that before but i thought that was funny it's a made-up word totally i mean all words are made up but it's like a very made-up word well it's funny that it made it do you think the word or the concept oh god david no i was just going to say one little thing that it it made its way so powerfully into the old testament that uh day of atonement and all that is like very prominent yeah so it came in handy yeah oh yeah i was actually gonna say don't you think it kind of the concept of atonement do you think it kind of falls short because of jesus's sacrifice um well mankind and creation will be propelled into a place that is vastly superior to that of where um creation started before mankind fell yeah well maybe we're more at one with god in the end in the second paradise than in the first paradise right yeah right i mean um that's the i'm selfish so that's what i'm looking that's what i'm looking forward to um reading about adam before the fall and hearing like oh yeah you have the chance you have the opportunity we all have the opportunity to be in a state that supersedes what he originally had and lost and it's like oh that seems uh that seems really appealing to me in one sense um because the only thing better than if less is more just imagine how much exactly so do you spend do christians spend a lot of time thinking about the meaning of christ's death like i mean because i find it i find it a little bit mysterious and is it something that a lot of christians uh my wife just came home and said i had to tell her i love her what was the fashion dude i'm sorry i love you do uh thank you same to you do you uh do a lot of christians of all different types think about christ's death and the mystery of it or is it not something that gets a lot of thought from christians we should we should kieran was it you who said something to me or was it an orthodox saint that said something about the crucifixion being the actual ending of creation that wasn't me oh well i read that and that blew my mind we never thought about that before and it's like didn't you just tell me didn't you just tell me about that or maybe we read it together or something because i think i know i know i brought it up to you yeah yeah do you know i've thought about death a lot but not like the the full implications of that depth because it's just or that death because it's just so it's so heady and not only that but because there is such a focus on the crucifixion especially in orthodoxy especially in catholicism that it it's a lot like saying a word over and over and over again until there's this meaning so you know i have my crucifix here that i love looking at jesus on my crucifix but like really it should disturb me to think that like dude you have um you have a guy hanging from across and literally perpetually like stuck in a state of um so i don't know i don't know dave i don't know if it's possible for any of us to think to truly think enough about i when i'm in when when i'm in a proper headspace uh when i'm doing my rosary and i'm looking at the um the crucifix and christ's body represented on this representation of the crucifix i tripped myself out by doing a meditation where it jesus christ is in that statue he's tiny he's only six inches tall and he's in that bronze or whatever the metal is he's within there like his body's in there suffering like he's right there he's a foot and a half away from my face and he is literally inside that metal casing suffering and dying right that's uh that was a powerful meditation that i had because sometimes i think okay i have to place myself in the scene and i just imagine jerusalem and all that it's like no screw that i'm i'm here right now in my room with this crucifix and jesus christ is six feet six inches tall he's inside this metal casing like a torture device so that was a powerful and trippy uh meditation and sometimes if i'm in if i'm in a good head space i can feel that and i think we need to sort of connect with that the reality of it and another meditation i've been doing at the mass is getting really really nervous that uh the priest is going to spill the precious blood of christ once it's been consecrated and turned into the blood and trying to picture that it really is christ's blood because it is but i'm trying to have that nervousness because when my wife has a glass of water on the couch i'm nervous so why shouldn't i be nervous about the priest holding yeah hey david it says the call is going to end in 10 minutes just to let you know absolutely yeah yeah we'll wrap it up we'll definitely wrap it up because i got to go yeah but one thing i wanted to say about the empty cross of the protestants do you think that's a little bit of uh reluctance to acknowledge the price that was paid or am i missing the point of protestantism yeah i don't know what that is there is i think because they because of uh the sacrifice being paid once and for all in hebrews talking about um you know the the the one sacrifice they look at and they're like see it's over it's done with well that's because they don't have a proper understanding of the eucharist and um you know how we participate in the sacrifice right uh every time we go to mass or liturgy and uh yeah so i think it's just the fundamental misunderstanding but as a side note like i i'm wearing my you know little right now that doesn't it doesn't have christ on it yeah every cross i have has christ on it there's an over there's an emphasis in in my church in particular with the resurrection of christ because i think honestly in a lot of traditions of christianity the the thing that gets most often overlooked is how important the resurrection is and how uh fundamental and important that is and what that signifies but um even even the descent into hades the heart that the harrowing of hades and uh not having a fully fleshed out kind of idea of what's going on there in most traditions there always seems to be either the emphasis on uh just the crucifixion or uh yeah the crucifixion's done bro yeah nothing else needs to be done christ paid at all bro it's like yeah of course you did but so i think that that i think that's that's something that they're like allergic to uh crucifix but they're inconsistent with it it is it is weird because they won't wear a crucifix around i think it also might have to do with uh like an iconic class which is which is so bizarre though because um having christ on the cross depicts something that is act it's actually the incarnate the incarnate word but when you just have the symbol of the cross like if you want to talk about paganism that literally is paganism an that is actual paganism it's it's so the irony is just never thought of hilarious that is a that is a pagan symbol and it obviously was a pagan torture device so to have an empty cross with no christ on it if you if a roman citizen were to look at that back in the day in the first century they'd be like oh who are you going to torture and kill they would have no understand no christian would have an understanding of what an empty cross meant apart from christ being crucified on it so it's so ridiculous the iconoclastic thing of like but then what also is weird is like you're going to most pro and i'm in people's houses all the time and they're largely evangelical houses and they'll have pictures of christ all over the place they're just not canonically painted or written icons so because they have a blond-haired jesus that's hanging on a cross it's somehow okay because it's it's painted in uh you know victorian style whatever but if you have an icon it's like oh no graven image is like what it doesn't make any sense maybe they see that they were yeah but i i did read something very powerful in a protestant writer of i don't know the 18th century or 19th century something like that it was all about the precious blood of christ and i found it very shocking i know there are a lot of evangelicals that talk about uh the blood of christ and the cleansing power of the blood of christ and i like that i belong to the confraternity of the precious blood but this writing that i read it was representative of one particular protestant group that was sort of obsessed or focused on the blood of christ and the power of the blood of christ so that's maybe not your typical protestant um emphasis but it was very weird and refreshing to read it and i couldn't help but think that it was very catholic i don't know or maybe orthodox too plea plead the blood of jesus you do get that a lot of pentecostal and uh like charismatic baptist okay churches yeah yeah my wife goes to a baptist church and he's a great pastor and he's he every time that they're at church he talks about the blood of christ but uh yeah it is it is rather interesting so there's still there's there's good um you know in those traditions there's just they're missing a lot and they're uh they're adding a lot of weird stuff too i just think it's funny how ironic it is we you know as catholics and orthodox we get accused of paganizing christianity but yeah most of pr most of protestantism is literally just gnosticism it's essentially uh you need to believe everything exactly the way it needs to be believed otherwise you're not going to be saved and they just import all these weird dualistic uh gnostic teachings and it's and then we get accused of being pagans because we you know we pray to the mother of god i like in this uh book fundamentals of catholic dogma that i'm reading uh doing a little series on it but the author makes no bones about it he just said he just clumps together like the errors of of uh like the materialists the pantheist and liberal christian theology it's like all clumped together right yeah just like in certain in certain respects like it's just like they completely miss the boat in exactly the same way it's like what a what what a group like you know you got the gnostic manichaeans you got the pantheist you got the materialists and you got your liberal liberal protestant theology it's like strange bedfellows i guess yeah yeah for sure we'll wrap it up there but make sure i'm thinking wrong huh go ahead finish wrap it up there it always that always makes i was just gonna say that always makes me think like oh where am i like like what like if everybody's so wrong then like where am i where am i where's my wrongness because yeah yeah um it's really it's really easy to look in those things and be like this is wrong this is wrong this is wrong and then i'm always just like oh man if everybody else is wrong i'm probably wrong about a ton of stuff of course of course of course pressure your brother said you're the one who kind of but your brother your brother showed me that that thinking yes it's so wrong about everything in me yeah yeah we're so wrong about everything but that's what your brother kieran said it's like uh we don't we don't get to heaven by having a checklist of beliefs and getting the the quiz right right so right um but uh i was just thinking today we may get cut off at any moment but we're thinking i was thinking today about the little child and the two kids in the backseat of the car and they're so worried about you know oh did did daddy did mommy and daddy do their taxes properly did they remember to file like the uh the a30 form did i don't know if oh i don't know if he signed oh i'm so worried about this you know and the kids are discussing like the stuff that's well beyond their ken it's like kids aren't supposed to do that right it's like we're in the back seat we're supposed to just be good and keep quiet and that's about it right like we're not supposed to put our nose in uh god's business really that's a really good analogy i like that yeah so this talks about how dog went dictator prayer life yeah yeah he talks about how it guides i think he says it's like the light pose does he say there's a light am i cutting is c.s lewis the one that said they're the lights on the path is that what he said do you remember that dogmas are the lights on the path like you're walking a dark path but we have the dogmas that light up the path i don't know if that's right i don't remember i like cs lewis though yeah he might have making up his a map and a a man i think he uses something with this the be afraid that like i don't have this dogma right and this dogma right then i'm going to be way off the path and it's kind of like like you know you're just kind of at god's mercy anyway so yeah he's going to pour his wrath on you yeah yeah exactly he already has look at this wonderful so thanks for taking the time guys and i hope you i hope you guys don't get any more of the kovids okay of the coofs the coops and don't get any more don't get any more jabs how's that uh david let us know let us know what matt says then yeah yeah yeah yeah i will i'll email you all right cool later talk soon i just all right cool later talk soon i just tell