Catholic vs. Other – 2017-09-02 – William

William is a very gifted visual artist whom I met at the University of Waterloo. We were in different programs, but we were neighbours. His depth and sensitivity made a deep impression on me even then. I’m glad to have reconnected.


Please excuse any errors as these captions were automatically generated by YouTube.

0:00 hi I’m William and you’re listening to
0:01 Catholic verses other tell the audience
0:08 a little bit about yourself who you are
0:09 what you believe in why you believe it
0:11 okay I grew up Catholic
0:14 that was something I never really
0:17 discarded in the sense that God the
0:20 Bible Jesus I never really had any doubt
0:23 or confusion about them but I also felt
0:25 that meditation and yoga Eastern
0:28 spirituality I had a hunch since ages
0:31 ago that there was something within
0:34 myself that I wanted to develop that way
0:37 so to make a long story short in 96 I
0:42 happened upon something called sahaja
0:45 yoga there was classes in
0:46 kitchener-waterloo you know Ontario and
0:50 that’s how I found out about sahaja yoga
0:53 and around that same time my
0:57 relationship with the divine was kind of
1:00 moving away from what she called
1:02 Catholic orthodoxy can you talk just a
1:05 little bit about your earliest memories
1:08 of this notion of worship petition
1:12 prayer anything like that maybe you
1:14 would have been three four or five six
1:15 seven years old something like that can
1:17 you talk a little bit about the early
1:19 days and your notion of religion I
1:20 suppose the way I understand it looking
1:22 back is that because I had parents who
1:26 got along well with each other respected
1:29 each other to this day I’ve never really
1:32 seen them lose their temper with one
1:34 another and I think what happens in
1:36 cases like that is when you hear about
1:38 God or some kind of benevolent force
1:40 taking care of the universe you tend to
1:43 be able to absorb as much of that as
1:45 you’ve experienced right so I think if
1:48 you have very if you have a very secure
1:50 family life with parents who create a
1:53 very safe and sort of stable and loving
1:55 environment it’s very straightforward
1:58 thing and then I think what happens is
2:00 in your imagination you just pattern
2:02 your picture of God after the sort of
2:05 love and supervision you felt from your
2:07 own parents so whether it was for that
2:09 reason or for some other reasons I
2:11 always believed that God was there
2:13 taking care of everything
2:14 and in the beginning it was always part
2:16 of church like we never missed Sunday
2:18 Mass I was an altar boy my brother was
2:21 an altar boy you know say prayers at
2:23 night say the Our Father and the Hail
2:26 Mary and you know pretty much the
2:27 full-on Catholic experience such as lots
2:30 of people had let’s say 50 years ago so
2:34 we’re almost part of an earlier
2:36 generation of Catholicism we never miss
2:38 church you always say your prayers and
2:39 all that so it was so much part of the
2:43 fabric of growing up that you know there
2:47 was never any doubt or confusion or
2:49 mystery about it it just seemed quite
2:52 normal and natural that God was there
2:54 taking care of everything and then as
2:56 you grew up going to church and hearing
2:58 the Scriptures and all that you just hid
3:02 you could say a richer and a richer
3:04 picture of Christ Jesus everything like
3:07 that there might have been a time and I
3:10 want you to talk about the dark times
3:11 where you drifted away from God where
3:13 you drifted away from prayer where you
3:14 drifted away from basic morality as it’s
3:17 understood in a judeo-christian world
3:19 can you talk a little bit about the dark
3:21 stuff and how you may have strayed away
3:22 or maybe you didn’t oh I strayed away it
3:26 seems that I was just kind of wired for
3:28 alcoholism a few drinks in I just turned
3:32 into someone very unpleasant I also
3:34 never had any ability to moderate my
3:37 news so one drink would always turn into
3:40 six or eight or ten fortunately or
3:44 unfortunately I just never had much
3:45 money so I was a student and then a
3:47 full-time artist out of that so I never
3:49 had a big budget for drinking and all
3:51 that so that moderated things a little
3:53 bit but I always had very strict ideas
3:56 that I would not have sex before
3:58 marriage and follow Christian morality
4:00 as far as I could even when I stopped
4:03 going to church and all of that I still
4:05 didn’t really change my morality much
4:08 except when I started drinking when
4:11 you’re drunk you kind of don’t care much
4:13 and you could say your baser instincts
4:16 sort of rule the date and what happens
4:18 is once you’ve been to however many
4:20 parties have however many encounters
4:22 with various temptations whatever girls
4:24 drugs will have you it starts to just
4:27 whittle away at
4:27 your self-respect in such a way that I
4:30 was no longer conducting myself in a
4:33 very moral way even when I wasn’t
4:36 drinking
4:36 so give you a quick example was I would
4:40 sometimes shoplift when I was drunk and
4:44 then one day I just start grabbing stuff
4:47 I was always broke so usually just like
4:49 a piece of fruit or some grocery or
4:51 other but I just grab stuff and stick it
4:55 in my pocket
4:55 something I wouldn’t have dreamed of
4:57 doing in my first year of university by
4:59 my third year of university that was
5:01 just normal so what happens is drugs
5:04 alcohol things like that kind of erode
5:07 your personality that’s what happened to
5:09 my relationship with God I didn’t go
5:11 through any crisis of faith I just ruin
5:14 myself through other methods so I think
5:18 this is an appropriate time to introduce
5:20 your current world you okay I’ll use a
5:23 different word the worldview doesn’t
5:25 quite cover it because worldview seems
5:27 to imply some kind of rational process
5:30 it was actually more fundamentals that
5:32 in the sense that I’d always been
5:34 seeking ways to deepen myself as an
5:38 artist and deepen my relationship with
5:42 whatever the source of spirituality is I
5:45 remember around the time we met I
5:47 discovered a book called Jesus lived in
5:50 India and it’s about the missing years
5:52 from when we hear of Christ in the
5:55 temple preaching to the elders when he’s
5:57 around 12 years old and then he
5:58 reappears when he’s around 30 and in
6:01 between it seems as though and I think
6:05 it’s been fairly well established by
6:07 people who are interested in the
6:08 question that he went all through the
6:11 Middle East and as far into Asia as
6:13 Kashmir and over into India and
6:15 elsewhere so among the many things that
6:18 this book started triggering me was the
6:20 idea that maybe my interest in
6:22 meditation yoga other things was not
6:24 necessarily at odds with my Christianity
6:27 and you know in the Bible of course
6:29 Christ is always talking about the
6:31 Hebrew prophets and the Hebrew
6:33 Scriptures but I couldn’t see any reason
6:35 why he might not talk to Hindus about
6:38 their scriptures or instead of talking
6:41 about
6:41 God the Father of the Old Testament that
6:43 he might talk to them about Krishna or
6:45 Vishnu or whatever and it seemed to me
6:47 that he might be a more of a universal
6:49 personality what’s something that
6:51 belongs merely to the Christians or the
6:53 Jews but that he spoke in the language
6:56 and in the spiritual turns and according
7:00 to the scriptures of whoever might have
7:02 been in front of him so I realized that
7:04 being Christian didn’t necessarily
7:06 require canceling all the other faith
7:09 traditions so that’s maybe a kind of a
7:11 lone answer but I took that broader
7:15 approach to seeking and when I when I
7:18 saw a poster for sahaja yoga which is a
7:21 meditation practice I went down and
7:24 checked out the class and learned how to
7:26 meditate using sahaja yoga there’s a
7:28 woman she’s passed on now but her name
7:31 is Shri Mataji and she developed sahaja
7:33 yoga and spent from 1970 till around
7:37 2012 going around the world teaching
7:41 people how to use this meditation so
7:44 couple points are important before we
7:46 get further on the subject
7:47 first of all sahaja Yoga is always free
7:50 and has been since it began in 1970 and
7:53 Shri Mataji that’s s HRI is tree and
7:59 mata ji is Mata ji her full name is shri
8:04 mataji service tava or some people know
8:06 as Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi but she set
8:10 aside yoga so that it’s free everywhere
8:12 it doesn’t have a hierarchy or a
8:14 membership it’s just a complete
8:16 grassroots faith she used to come
8:18 regularly to convocation Hall University
8:20 ternal and after I saw her there I met
8:24 her briefly after the program and then I
8:26 had a complete transformation after I
8:28 met her no more drugs no more alcohol no
8:31 more cigarettes she’s not the one that
8:33 hugs everyone no no that lady’s a fraud
8:36 actually but most of these Indian gurus
8:39 are frauds and I’ve been teaching
8:41 meditation now for twenty years and I
8:44 can say that if you run into an Indian
8:47 group the chances that they’re not some
8:50 kind of charlatan or fraud are almost
8:52 zero because there’s a huge market
8:54 there’s
8:55 huge amount of money to be made and
8:57 these people just pop up out of the
8:59 woodwork it’s a bit like what you know
9:01 you see down in the south there’s a lot
9:03 of those preachers who start saying you
9:06 send me your money and God will send you
9:08 blessings and stuff and they’re just
9:09 milking innocent people from their money
9:11 and stuff like that so the most of the
9:14 Indian gurus including the hugging lady
9:15 belong to this category I’m very sorry
9:19 to say because there’s a lot of honest
9:21 seekers end up hoodwinked by a lot of
9:23 these in university can you just give
9:24 one or two examples of Eastern gurus
9:28 that are not hood winking people that
9:31 are not charlatans just so we get the
9:32 other side of the coin that there’s some
9:34 good news you won’t know their names and
9:37 neither will I because they don’t have
9:38 books they don’t have videos they don’t
9:40 go on tours they don’t charge money I’ll
9:43 give a real simple key to understanding
9:46 this don’t pay attention or anybody that
9:49 makes money because you can look at
9:52 Buddha or Christ or any of the prophets
9:55 or divine incarnations or anybody in any
9:58 of the faith traditions none of them
9:59 ever made a business of it you’re
10:02 talking about guys that owned a pair of
10:04 sandals in a robe now I think we know
10:06 what happens to good authentic people
10:09 right they get crucified they get killed
10:11 they get strung up they get tortured if
10:13 you think about Socrates he was killed
10:14 for his love of truth and you know a lot
10:17 of people don’t consider him a religious
10:19 man I do oh I think he is I think he’s a
10:21 divine incarnation I mean in the sense
10:24 that he’s one of these pure
10:25 personalities who are not saddled with
10:28 the kind of failings and shortcomings
10:30 that the rest of us ordinary people are
10:32 and that they come on this earth at
10:35 different time in different places to
10:39 help us all alone and yeah most of them
10:42 end badly because the status quo is
10:45 generally not very interested in finding
10:47 out that the world that they’re
10:49 exploiting his false and sure mataji
10:53 kept her divine nature kind of more or
10:56 less under wraps so maybe that helped
10:58 but there is another answer which is
11:01 maybe more interesting which is that in
11:03 the big UGA’s or the cycles of the
11:07 turnings of the wheel in the India
11:09 time line it’s a scale of thousands and
11:12 thousands of years Kali Yuga is the last
11:15 couple thousand years and that is the
11:17 darkest age when the Piscean age ended
11:21 and the Aquarian age began then there
11:25 was something called Krita Yuga which is
11:27 a transitional age and that is an age in
11:30 which truth gets revealed and evil gets
11:34 kind of exposed so then you get the kind
11:38 of churning that you see in the 20th and
11:39 21st century where all of a sudden
11:43 somehow all the secrets come out and my
11:46 feeling is that this is an age of
11:49 exposure and you can’t just go on
11:51 sweeping truth under the rug and it
11:53 actually is transitioning into the Satya
11:58 Yuga which is the age of truth
11:59 enlightenment which is what we’re
12:00 supposed to be on the doorstep of okay I
12:02 understood that we were in the final age
12:04 according to the Hindus that I spoke
12:06 with yes well there’s different ways of
12:08 interpreting it so when you reach the
12:10 culmination of Kali Yuga this
12:13 transitional phase is the Last Judgement
12:16 so there’s different ways of
12:17 understanding the Last Judgement but all
12:19 the signs in every prophecy and
12:21 everything points to the age were in now
12:23 but you’ve probably heard of Shiva Shiva
12:26 Lingam right yeah well Shiva Lingam is
12:28 that stone but they offer prayers to if
12:32 you’re honoring or worshipping Shiva
12:34 but anyways Sadashiva is like God
12:37 Almighty and he has this dance of
12:40 destruction see they break that Godhead
12:43 into creator preserver and destroyer
12:46 so that’s Sri Rama Sri Vishnu and Shri
12:49 Shiva and this dance of destruction is
12:53 supposed to bring the end of a cycle and
12:55 then a new cycle begins but that happens
13:00 if if Sadashiva is displeased with how
13:03 human beings are behaving so the wheel
13:06 can turn to an age of truth and
13:08 enlightenment or if we’re not behaving
13:11 ourselves properly then we can dissolve
13:14 the universe scrap it and start over
13:16 there’s very strong parallels between
13:19 Christian and other ways of
13:21 understanding
13:22 Last Judgement it’s just that in the
13:24 Christian Last Judgement there’s no
13:27 turning of the wheel in the sense that
13:29 if we get it right we don’t enter the
13:32 age of truth and enlightenment here on
13:34 earth it depends how you interpret like
13:36 when you say the kingdom of God is among
13:39 us
13:39 you could understand that on a
13:40 collective level that there is the
13:42 kingdom of God is within us meaning in
13:45 our bodies in our beings on this earth
13:47 while we live here not just in heaven so
13:50 if you understand it that way is kind of
13:51 identical to the Hindi way of looking
13:54 and I’ve interviewed two hindus i
13:56 entered them on the same day but one of
13:58 them mentioned that there is a shiva
14:01 lingam
14:01 actually being worshipped by all the
14:03 muslims in the Kaaba in Mecca have you
14:06 heard this yeah this is brings me back
14:08 to that vision of Christ as a universal
14:12 beam so I’ll get to the stone at Mecca
14:15 in a second but I want you to imagine
14:17 first a metaphor in which there is one
14:20 Tree of Life
14:21 so now you’ve probably heard of the
14:24 chakras the Kundalini there’s a subtle
14:28 body and if whether you’re a
14:29 reflexologist or whether you’re doing
14:31 acupuncture or whether using any
14:33 esoteric Chinese or Indian medicine or
14:37 yoga or anything like that you’re
14:38 dealing with the energy body so if your
14:41 surgeon cuts you open he’s not going to
14:43 find your heart chakra or your navel or
14:46 whatever it’s subtler than the world of
14:49 the five senses you could imagine it as
14:51 are more essential or more eternal self
14:53 right and that the way we behave in the
14:57 slings and arrows of our worldly
14:59 existence clogs up or imbalances or
15:02 otherwise gets stored up on our energy
15:04 body and that all of our physical
15:06 manifestations all over behavior
15:07 everything like they’re just outward
15:09 expressions of what’s been happening on
15:12 the subtle body so imagine this tree of
15:14 life there’s also a macro version so
15:17 there’s the microcosm which is you and I
15:19 but we’re in the image of God and the
15:22 macro is the Tree of Life which is I
15:24 don’t know you could say the
15:26 superstructure of the whole cosmos or
15:28 whatever and that
15:30 the history of humankind’s relationship
15:32 with the divine is like this tree and
15:35 but different prophets and incarnations
15:38 are like different flowers that
15:42 blossomed at different times on
15:44 different branches different times
15:46 places and they each have different
15:47 fragrance but they’re all fed on one
15:51 sack of know thyself one SAP of you
15:55 could say our evolution towards
15:57 self-realization so according to this
16:02 Christ or Muhammad’s father would be the
16:05 same father in heaven
16:07 in fact Mohammed would tell you the same
16:09 thing too gets as you probably know he
16:11 honored and I would go so far as to say
16:14 worship though Muslims would not use
16:16 that word
16:17 Christ and his mother as well as Abraham
16:20 and Moses and all that and that all
16:22 these divisions between the different
16:23 religions are just artificial ones
16:25 imposed for political or other reasons
16:27 by human beings because we can’t grasp
16:30 well the Sufis actually believes that
16:32 God has come in many times and places in
16:35 different forms and that there is like
16:37 William Blake said that all religions
16:39 are one but in any case Muhammad’s
16:42 problem with idolatry was that these
16:45 warlike desert people of his time in
16:48 place did not have the capacity to treat
16:51 a statue or a painting as a metaphor as
16:56 a symbol but if he didn’t restrict the
16:59 use of idols that they would just fall
17:01 into idolatry right but there is
17:03 something called swayambhu it’s
17:06 basically the idea that there is chakras
17:08 like we have in our own body that
17:09 there’s also chakras on the mother earth
17:11 and that these are actually not an idol
17:15 in the sense that they simply represent
17:17 some source of inspiration or spiritual
17:19 sustenance but they’re actually divine
17:23 objects created by the mother earth
17:25 there are special places and that this
17:29 Lingam is a manifestation of the father
17:33 principle and so Muslims are all about
17:37 God the Father right they don’t really
17:39 get into the feminine side and all of
17:41 that so much so
17:43 just happened to be one of those which
17:46 you call like a Shiva Lingam and so
17:49 that’s why even though Muslims are not
17:50 into worshipping the world of forms and
17:54 into the formless God
17:55 but that Muhammad made an exception for
17:57 this particular thing and that it is
18:00 exactly what a Hindi would call our
18:02 Shiva Lingam and the idea is that
18:05 everything flows with spiritual energy
18:09 and that an object a place a person a
18:13 book whatever its vibratory signature is
18:17 something that you can interact with
18:19 these swayam booze are places where
18:24 there’s a very potent in a very pure
18:27 vibration I mean a very simple version
18:30 of it would be that if you leave the
18:31 city and go to your cottage and sit by
18:33 the lake or whatever you’ll find it much
18:35 easier to meditate because the vibratory
18:39 environment but you’re trying yourself
18:41 in is feeding your spirit and it’s
18:43 quieting your more complicated parts I
18:47 am very much a Western mind a product of
18:51 the Western culture I know that it’s
18:55 popular to go to the east my problem
18:57 with the East philosophically
18:58 religiously is that it ignores a lot of
19:02 important questions for example a
19:04 questions of origin where did the
19:06 universe come from the question of
19:09 destination is there a difference
19:11 between the worst case scenario and the
19:13 best case scenario for any being
19:14 questions even simple questions like how
19:17 many beings are there like you and I are
19:19 we – or are we one I’ve asked many
19:21 people in the east and I don’t get a
19:22 straight answer I get are we – yes are
19:25 we one yes and I don’t get any any real
19:27 satisfying answer even when I talk about
19:30 the ultimate eternal outcome for you or
19:35 for me if we’re to or if were one my
19:38 hunch is that we’re all one according to
19:41 the East but people just don’t like to
19:42 admit that my hunch is that there’s only
19:45 God there’s only heaven and that all
19:47 suffering is illusion according to all
19:49 the Eastern world views well I don’t
19:52 know where you got your hunches from but
19:54 they’re both absolutely correct and
19:55 anybody who
19:57 coming from Zen or Buddhism or Sikhism
20:02 or Hinduism in its mainstream who’s
20:07 telling you otherwise just doesn’t
20:08 really know the background because that
20:10 was well-established
20:12 ever since the time of Adi
20:13 Shankaracharya I don’t know if you’ve
20:15 heard of Adi Shankar Acharya one of the
20:17 greatest of all the scholars from the
20:20 Vedic tradition and so Adi Shankar
20:23 Acharya was part of a debate that was
20:25 coming up in Hinduism and Buddhism which
20:28 was debate between duality and
20:30 non-duality which is exactly what you’re
20:33 talking about and he was basically said
20:37 to have put all his competitors to rest
20:41 in all the various debates and
20:42 discussions which is that there is only
20:45 one there is only the parabrahma the
20:48 all-pervading divine and that duality is
20:52 just an illusion in fact that’s the
20:55 whole concept of Maya which is the whole
20:57 world of the five senses is illusory
21:01 it’s basically the sort of bootcamp that
21:05 all of our souls go to to kind of whip
21:09 ourselves into shape so that we can
21:11 ascend the evolutionary ladder to rejoin
21:15 the source from which we have come so
21:18 even the concepts of heaven and hell are
21:21 not all incompatible with yoga and even
21:25 in the Christian tradition there was
21:26 people who believed in reincarnation
21:29 it’s essentially the same you know you
21:32 were saying questions of meaning and
21:34 direction and source and destination and
21:37 all of that it really comes down to the
21:39 idea that we are ascending to return to
21:42 the divine source for which we all came
21:45 and that darkness was created to teach
21:48 us about light and that the freedom to
21:51 sin was given to us so that we could in
21:54 our own freedom through our own will and
21:57 through our own efforts come to God has
22:00 our own legitimate experience not just
22:02 that we were just made divine but that
22:05 on our own terms in our own freedom we
22:08 get to accomplish it
22:10 it seems as though love cannot really be
22:14 understood until you kind of struggle
22:16 through its opposites to reach it I
22:20 suppose the big difference between
22:23 reincarnation and the more you could say
22:26 a more mainstream Christian view of
22:28 things is just that we have a longer
22:30 scale of time to reach heaven I want to
22:33 ask a little bit about annihilation or
22:36 Nirvana there’s some schools of Buddhism
22:39 that don’t believe that we reunited with
22:42 the one mind of Buddha or with God but
22:45 that we simply step out entirely of
22:48 existence and that were annihilated so
22:52 there’s no joy there’s no bliss there’s
22:53 no fulfillment it’s just stepping out
22:55 and nothing and this strikes me as a
22:57 sort of nihilistic pessimistic atheism
23:00 which dominates secular society yeah
23:02 yeah right it’s based on a fundamental
23:05 misunderstanding of Buddha as an atheist
23:08 and so it’s trying to graph the
23:11 spiritual dimensions of Buddhism on to
23:13 atheism and the only way to do that is
23:16 to end up with this bleak nihilistic
23:18 version of Buddhism which I don’t buy
23:20 for a second
23:21 I think Buddha just understood that
23:23 let’s talk about self-realization let’s
23:26 talk about immersion into egoless state
23:30 because if you talk about God before
23:33 people have a connection to God it just
23:35 gets them into all kinds of blind
23:37 Allen’s and that is a fair point to be
23:40 made which is that human beings can get
23:41 into all kinds of nonsense in the name
23:43 of God and if you can achieve your
23:46 self-realization or Buddha consciousness
23:50 or whatever you want to call it is
23:52 simply that you achieve your yoga you
23:55 get United to God and that the idea as
23:59 far as I can understand from the
24:00 Buddhist scriptures is that the removal
24:02 of the ego meaning the get rid of all
24:05 the things that separates you from God
24:07 is the achieving of Satori or
24:10 enlightenment or self-realization so
24:13 that is the Kundalini awakening as he
24:16 described it in in the sanskrit that
24:19 comes first as the priority in buddhism
24:21 so presumably buddha could have been
24:24 to himself well there’s no point in
24:26 describing God or talking about God
24:28 these people are not connected to God
24:29 it’s just going to turn into another
24:30 book or another concept or another
24:32 stupid religion so let’s just talk about
24:35 enlightenment as if that’s all there is
24:36 the idea being that if you choose your
24:38 enlightenment then you’re connected to
24:40 God so there’s no confusion about what
24:42 God is because you experience it in your
24:44 own awareness I don’t believe for a
24:47 minute but Buddha was an atheist and I
24:49 think this mixed together of atheism and
24:53 Buddhism it’s more of a modern
24:54 interpretation okay my main concern with
24:59 Buddhism Hinduism all the Eastern
25:02 religions and with Judaism in its most
25:05 of its modern forms is that it says that
25:08 everyone goes to heaven ultimately or
25:10 some or goes to God or whatever you want
25:13 to call it there’s a happy ending for
25:14 everyone and in my mind if there’s only
25:17 God then there’s really no incentive to
25:22 do the right thing and that we can only
25:24 applaud those who want to go and see how
25:27 deep the rabbit-hole of evil is we have
25:30 to applaud those people that are mapping
25:31 out that part of this great dream that
25:34 is the material physical world which is
25:37 really illusory we could do nothing but
25:39 applaud these people that are going into
25:41 the dark stinky corners of this and
25:44 there’s no harm no foul because we’re
25:47 all destined for the same outcome which
25:49 is a wonderful happy eternal joyful
25:52 outcome do you do you see how that
25:53 undermines morality and my from my
25:55 perspective well yeah and I I agree with
25:58 you completely
25:58 and if you look at people from the east
26:02 who generally believe in reincarnation
26:03 it’s basically a ladder a ladder to
26:07 return to perfection and ladders go both
26:11 ways right okay so the best-case
26:14 scenario is going back to God up that
26:16 ladder to God the worst-case scenario is
26:18 that you’re stuck at the bottom of the
26:20 ladder and you’re eternally damned is
26:23 that correct I mean just from never mind
26:26 requiring people to answer that through
26:28 some kind of perception of mystical
26:30 reality just at the human level where as
26:32 you can see that there are levels to
26:35 which you can sink in your individual
26:37 life
26:38 from which you can’t crawl back ok so
26:41 that sounds like there are permanent
26:43 lasting eternal negative consequences
26:45 what I would call hell this is a good
26:48 point to sort of go into your questions
26:52 about my faith because I don’t want to
26:54 believe any lies and I don’t want to
26:56 just sort of coast through comfortable
26:58 and complacent I want to be challenged
27:01 yeah well maybe I’ll take it a bit from
27:04 my path how it led me away from it
27:06 there’s an energy you’ve probably heard
27:08 of it it’s called the Kundalini that
27:10 ordinary human awareness is dormant in
27:13 the sacrum bone at the base of the spine
27:14 it’s said to be there in
27:16 three-and-a-half coils it’s talked about
27:20 it’s symbolized in different faith
27:22 traditions in different ways the Greeks
27:26 had it as this serpentine force like you
27:29 know that’s signed for the medical
27:31 profession you have those spiraling
27:33 snakes and anyways this serpent energy
27:37 is if you dig deep enough it’s in many
27:39 different traditions but anyways
27:41 according to the Sanskrit that energy is
27:44 called as Kundalini it just means it’s a
27:46 coiled energy and when it’s awakened
27:50 from the sacrum bone that’s when the
27:55 yoga takes place it travels up the
27:57 center of the subtle body and it pierces
28:00 the crown chakra what Buddha called the
28:03 thousand pedaled Lotus at the crown of
28:05 the head and according to how Christian
28:09 and when I understand it that’s the Holy
28:11 Spirit and that thousand petaled Lotus
28:14 would be the tongues of flame that the
28:16 Apostles had when they had their Holy
28:19 Spirit awakened like at the time of the
28:21 Pentecost remember after the
28:23 resurrection Christ appeared to them and
28:25 they had the tongues of flame and so on
28:26 so in practical terms when that energy
28:30 has been triggered you start to feel
28:31 evidence of spiritual reality on your
28:34 central nervous systems in particular
28:35 there’s different places of your hands
28:38 your palm your fingertips where you feel
28:40 a response of the different chakras so
28:43 the reason why I’m describing this is
28:45 because there’s a very practical way of
28:48 explaining how I started to feel very
28:51 differently about
28:52 catholic church which is that as my
28:55 vibratory awareness on my central
28:57 nervous system got more and more
28:59 developed i would feel more and more
29:02 heat burning tingling when i went to
29:07 church
29:08 so the burning and the tingling is a
29:11 sign of a blockage or a constriction in
29:14 the subtle body it’s basically the bad
29:16 news so if you are in a situation or
29:19 faced with a person or even if you put
29:22 your attention on some question or
29:24 concern or something which is not
29:26 benevolent the negative responses felt
29:29 as this burning and tingling now you
29:31 could say oh maybe that was just a
29:33 particular church or whatever but it
29:36 tended to be fairly consistent that if i
29:38 was going to church or some such
29:43 situation related to catholicism but it
29:46 was awfully bernie and tingly so then i
29:49 started thinking okay so how is this
29:51 incompatible with christ because as far
29:53 as i understand
29:54 christ is not hard on anybody than he is
29:57 on hypocrites he’s always going after
30:00 the scribes and the pharisees because
30:03 they’re leading people down all kinds of
30:07 wrong roads in the name of god so that
30:09 they’re not just sinners outright but
30:12 that they’re pretending to be something
30:13 else so it seems to me that maybe your
30:17 ads for each catholic or even your
30:19 average priest it’s not a lot better or
30:21 worse than other guys walking around but
30:23 because they’re standing there in their
30:25 robes and seeing jesus miss and christ
30:27 that that it’s a bit hard on the subtle
30:32 system so this is well borne out by
30:35 christ saying words which is that you
30:38 know there’s the thing where he
30:39 describes the pharisees like tunes sepal
30:44 curves right so that they’ve got all
30:46 their fancy garments it sounds exactly
30:48 like he’s describing the pope right cuz
30:50 he’s in these big marble halls with
30:52 these big fancy gowns and stuff like
30:54 that we can all agree that the popes are
30:56 not infallible and no i firmly believe
30:58 that all of the popes are infallible
31:01 it’s the office of pope not the person
31:03 of the pope that’s infallible and
31:04 infallibility is a very limit
31:06 power and it’s a negative power means
31:08 that they can’t teach error concerning
31:10 faith and morals when they teach in a
31:12 certain very well-defined way and the
31:15 whole church shares in that
31:16 infallibility I have a passive
31:18 infallibility as a faithful Catholic
31:20 infallibility is not that exciting
31:22 really when you get down to it it’s just
31:24 that we’re protected from air yeah the
31:26 way you described it it just means that
31:27 they’re just human like the rest of us
31:29 doesn’t mean anything
31:31 well it means what it means is that we
31:33 can trust the church because God exists
31:36 God is a Trinity the second person
31:38 incarnated Jesus Christ took on flesh
31:40 became a man he’s fully God fully man he
31:42 founded a church and his church is his
31:45 spotless bride it’s also his mystical
31:47 body and so the church is Christ and if
31:52 God is infallible and Christ is God and
31:54 if Christ is one body with the church
31:56 then the church is infallible so the
31:59 thing we need to picture when we picture
32:01 the church is not just the church here
32:02 on earth in this fallen world we need to
32:04 picture the purified the triumphant in
32:07 heaven the suffering Church in purgatory
32:09 that’s being purified and the dirty
32:11 priests and everyone else down here on
32:14 earth that haven’t even started being
32:16 purified well some of them have we call
32:18 them Saints the ones that accomplished a
32:20 heroic virtue on earth and that do their
32:22 purgatory on earth and go straight to
32:24 heaven we call them Saints and they’re
32:26 very rare and they’re very extraordinary
32:27 and if they walk into a room I guarantee
32:30 you’re gonna feel it but there’s a step
32:33 lower on that hierarchy which are the
32:35 hypocrites I would put at least a bunch
32:39 of us in the intermediate stage which
32:43 you’re ascribing the church to and I
32:47 would put the church beneath our feet as
32:49 the hypocrites because at least we’re
32:53 not pretending to be bringing the rest
32:56 of humankind into some kind of communion
32:59 with God I’m quite familiar with
33:01 Catholic theology as well so I would
33:06 respectfully disagree and place the
33:09 power structure of the Vatican beneath
33:12 the common man down with the hypocrites
33:14 I think that makes sense
33:16 because to believe that God Almighty
33:18 took on flesh
33:20 founded an infallible church to believe
33:22 that is to be Catholic if you believe
33:24 that eating the flesh of animals is
33:26 wrong then you’re a vegetarian and the
33:29 hypocrite who claims to be a vegetarian
33:31 but that’s secretly gorging himself on
33:33 meat every night he’s beneath contempt
33:36 it’s true but there are real vegetarians
33:39 that abstain from eating meat and there
33:41 are real Catholics who believe that they
33:43 are eating the body blood soul and
33:45 divinity of Jesus Christ who is God
33:46 incarnate and I’m one of those people I
33:49 do believe I believe there are real
33:51 Christians I believe there are people
33:54 who are flowing with the love of Christ
33:58 do you have any favorite Saints
34:00 Christian Saint Joan of Arc oh yeah one
34:03 of my favorites very popular I mean a
34:07 lot of the great Saints were not
34:09 particularly popular with Christians
34:12 that’s like after we burned them they
34:14 were like oh yeah yeah well we were
34:16 wrong and we’ll make them a saint now
34:18 but I I don’t think that this has
34:20 changed that a real saint showed up in
34:23 the midst of the Vatican there would be
34:26 panic and I I’m sorry the current Pope I
34:31 think he’s just substituted the old
34:33 hard-line conservativism of Benedict
34:37 with a kind of Latin American socialism
34:40 this very naive view of Christianity as
34:46 a political movement but what I say
34:49 about the fact that they’re real
34:50 Christians is that I’ve met them I’ve
34:54 met no Christians I’d like to think I’m
34:57 among their lesser ranks I’ve met many
35:01 greater than I I’d be surprised if
35:04 there’s one of them within a stone’s
35:06 throw of the Vatican there’s hardly a
35:08 Christian among them because it’s not
35:11 hard to see that Evo loves to put on the
35:14 garb of spirituality it is the devil’s
35:17 favorite weapon the worst adherence of
35:21 any profit or incarnation
35:23 are usually the people that are most
35:26 vehemently trying to follow that person
35:28 I’ll give you a quick example
35:30 Christ was completely unmaterialistic
35:34 humble beginnings in the manger humble
35:36 life growing up as a carpenter and a
35:39 very humble life of spreading the good
35:43 news with his robe and his sandals and
35:45 nothing else
35:47 Christians have been consistently the
35:50 most aggressive the most materialistic
35:54 and the most ambitious builders of
35:57 wealth and Empire I’ll give you another
36:00 example in Hinduism in the Vedic
36:03 tradition the core idea is that you’re
36:06 all brahma we are all divine we all come
36:11 from that source we’re all capable of
36:13 reflecting that source so why would you
36:16 have castes why would you have
36:18 untouchables and why would someone be
36:19 higher in somerville or or like Sikhism
36:22 Guru Nanak came to bring unity between
36:28 Hindus and Muslims so what do his
36:31 followers do do they try to integrate
36:34 Hinduism and Islam no they just started
36:37 a third so consistently human-beings do
36:42 the opposite of whoever they’re trying
36:45 to follow and I think looking to the
36:48 Vatican for a Christian would be the
36:51 last place to start just found human
36:54 nature I’m not picking on Catholics
36:56 ahead of any other religion that is
36:59 human nature the closer you get to the
37:01 centers of power you just turn the dial
37:04 up on hypocrisy if you include my
37:08 parents their siblings and then their
37:11 aunts and uncles there are both
37:14 perpetrators and victims of priests sex
37:18 abuse in my immediate family I’m talking
37:21 in media family
37:23 it’s absolutely widespread and I think
37:27 it’s part and parcel of the corruption
37:29 that comes from setting oneself up as
37:32 someone who’s capable of bringing others
37:35 to guarding celibacy is obviously a bad
37:38 idea I disagree with that statement that
37:41 celibacy is a bad idea well it’s a
37:43 product if you don’t have the spiritual
37:46 caliber
37:47 cope with it but I think there’s I think
37:51 that there is some fundamental evil that
37:55 works through the Catholic Church just
37:58 like there’s fundamental evil working
38:00 through other religions
38:02 it’s a favorite pathway for evil to take
38:05 because you can say God said so or you
38:08 can use authority and power the way the
38:11 priests until recently got away with
38:13 using to do whatever they terribly yeah
38:15 I thoroughly agree that there is
38:18 corruption running rampant and evil
38:21 running rampant among them so-called
38:24 members of the church and the hierarchy
38:27 and the smoker Satan has entered the
38:29 church as Pope Paul the sixth famously
38:31 said and the corruption of the best is
38:34 the worst and that there are a lot of
38:36 people that have no business being in
38:38 the Catholic Church but they want the
38:40 trappings that come with it so why not
38:42 just have it between you God because of
38:46 the sacraments because of the channels
38:48 of grace that were instituted by Christ
38:50 the seven sacraments you you realize
38:53 those sacraments are all being
38:54 administered by priests yeah and as long
38:57 as they intend to do what the church
38:58 does then they’re valid regardless of
39:01 the holiness or the lack of holiness of
39:03 those ministers we can we can
39:05 respectfully disagree on that I mean for
39:08 the sake of your listeners it’s probably
39:10 interesting but as far as I’m concerned
39:13 I’m pretty familiar with the theology
39:15 and I find it doesn’t add up with all
39:17 due respect the last thing I want is for
39:20 you to pretend to believe it because you
39:25 know that we have enough people in the
39:27 church that are pretending to believe
39:28 what the Church teaches we don’t need
39:29 one more so I very much appreciate that
39:32 you don’t call yourself a Catholic
39:33 because there there are plenty of people
39:35 that are calling themselves Catholics
39:36 that are what I consider wolves in
39:39 sheep’s clothing and they are they’re my
39:41 only real ideological enemies on this
39:44 planet because people that are born and
39:47 raised Catholic and that have turned
39:48 away and followed a sincere calling to a
39:52 spiritual path I have nothing but love
39:54 and respect and admiration for them and
39:55 I applaud them and I encourage them to
39:57 continue but those people that want the
39:59 power and the glory that
40:01 from a high position in the church or
40:03 any other the trappings of being a
40:05 Catholic for whatever reasons that I
40:08 find repugnant and I think you do too
40:11 you’re in a very rare class because I
40:13 think there’s very few people who are
40:15 simply using it as a vehicle to come
40:17 closer to God there is a line that is
40:20 crossed I’m sure you’re familiar with
40:22 that where Christ says that if you are
40:25 hurting children that it would be better
40:29 if you had had this millstone tied
40:31 around your neck and throw into the sea
40:33 my feeling is that not only that some
40:37 bad apples are child predators but there
40:41 are systemic ways in which those
40:42 predators have been shielded and even
40:48 allowed access to children that crosses
40:52 a line where I know I am no longer
40:54 dealing with this kind of church on
40:57 earth that you’re describing that there
40:59 is something that is essentially evil I
41:03 think that that ideal of a fallen but
41:07 striving Church is not on the table
41:09 anymore that there are depths which you
41:12 cannot rise from hmm I always ask my
41:17 guests to give a little closing thought
41:19 just speak directly to the audience
41:20 because we don’t know who’s listening
41:22 but there might be someone out there
41:23 that just needs a little ray of hope
41:25 from your perspective what could you say
41:27 to anyone that’s out there listening
41:28 right now okay well so how did yoga
41:31 meditation is free it’s fantastic I’ve
41:34 seen extraordinary transformations
41:37 within myself and people around me but
41:39 if someone looks into it and that’s not
41:42 their cup of tea there’s actually
41:44 something much broader which I can also
41:46 recommend which is just to check out
41:48 self offering Oh Jordan Peterson yeah
41:52 Jordan B Peterson I forget the name of
41:54 his website but all you have to do is
41:56 look up Jordan Peterson like I’d
41:57 recommend the Joe Rogan podcast there
42:00 was two of them they’re both excellent
42:01 but the first Joe Rogan podcast he talks
42:04 about self authoring and the advantage
42:06 there is that if you go through the Joe
42:08 Rogan podcast of Jordan Peters and who’s
42:11 going to youtube search Joe Rogan Jordan
42:14 Peterson there’ll be links for rebates
42:18 so you can use the Joe Rogan rebate and
42:21 get a get a discount on your cell phone
42:23 if you go through the past offering to
42:26 begin with and then the future offering
42:29 I think you’ll be able to end up
42:31 confronting whatever it is that’s
42:34 standing between you and your innermost
42:36 self but between sahaja yoga and self
42:40 offering I don’t think there’s a problem
42:42 that cannot be sorted out by anyone no
42:44 matter how much trouble
42:47 [Music]

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