Catholic vs. Atheist – 2017-05-21 – Lucy


Lucy is 17 years old. She is a hard determinist, which is one of the most rationally self-consistent forms of atheism. I really enjoyed our intense debate about the logical necessity of the uncaused first cause.

Transcript

Please excuse any errors as these captions were automatically generated by YouTube.

0:00 hi I’m Lucy and you’re listening to
0:01 Catholic versus atheist so tell us a
0:09 little bit about yourself who you are
0:11 what you believe and why you believe it
0:12 I mean um well I am from Ontario and I
0:19 was raised in a family that was Jewish
0:22 and Protestant but we practiced nothing
0:25 really like you know celebrated
0:27 Christmas but not with any type of
0:29 religious undertones and we would do
0:35 religious kind of events like Passover
0:39 and stuff with my dad’s family but I was
0:42 a child I was never encouraged to
0:44 believe in God or pray or there was
0:47 never any mention of my relationship
0:50 with God or religion um we were always
0:55 encouraged to be curious and to ask
0:57 questions and read we read all the time
1:02 right and I was always fascinated by
1:05 biology and how things worked because of
1:09 the exposure and the openness that we
1:11 had with science even if my parents
1:13 didn’t know the answer to a question
1:15 there was no religious answer it was
1:19 always either you know we don’t know or
1:21 let’s look in this book right is it safe
1:24 to say that you are a materialist you
1:26 believe that there’s only matter and
1:29 energy in the universe there’s no
1:31 supernatural soul or supernatural of God
1:33 that’s right okay
1:35 you believe that your mind is nothing
1:40 more than a certain configuration of
1:44 neurons and cells in your brain in your
1:46 spinal column in your whole body and how
1:50 they interact with the rest of the
1:52 universe
1:52 right right okay there’s nothing
1:54 supernatural there’s no fairy dust in
1:56 there right presumably if you believe in
1:59 science you believe in cause and effect
2:00 that no effect happens without a cause
2:02 right okay so what we can conclude from
2:06 those two facts is that you do not
2:08 believe in free will
2:10 cetera right okay
2:12 so without free will there can be no
2:16 real justice there can be no real praise
2:20 there can be no blame and when the
2:23 criminal goes before the judge it’s just
2:26 theater really it’s it’s just what’s
2:28 happening it’s not like the judge is
2:30 really passing judgment it’s not like
2:33 the criminal is really guilty he’s just
2:35 doing what he had to do and that’s just
2:37 what happened while I believe that there
2:39 is no free will and everything just
2:42 occurs like I don’t think that that
2:44 gives us leave – no there’s no we as
2:47 well
2:48 no there’s by definition don’t do
2:50 anything cuz I mean we’re good or for
2:52 you we still do have this really
2:55 impression yeah the illusion that yeah
2:58 you know a so I think realistically the
3:02 way that we live our everyday lives is
3:04 identical right like we still must act
3:06 with values and morals and people should
3:10 still go to prison and people should
3:11 still work hard and what you’re should
3:14 is different from my should your shit
3:17 applies to everything you’re locked in
3:19 to everything well I my should is a much
3:23 more dangerous affair because what’s at
3:26 stake for me is eternal bliss or eternal
3:29 sorrow you know and when you say people
3:32 should do the right thing of course you
3:35 say that because every everyone should
3:37 do exactly what they have to do there
3:40 there’s no choice right every state of
3:43 affairs is the logical consequence of
3:46 the preceding state of affairs
3:48 even if realistically I don’t believe
3:51 that I am making this moral choice the
3:55 things that cause me to make this choice
3:57 are so infinitesimally small that the
4:01 only difference is that I believe I
4:03 should do it because I’ll feel better in
4:06 it but do you also are you capable of
4:09 seeing from my point of view that there
4:11 is a God there is a supernatural soul
4:13 that we do have free will that what we
4:16 do does matter really
4:18 not just in appearance I mean everyone
4:21 can identify with the experience of
4:23 actions having constable
4:25 and so heaven in hell would be just a
4:29 series of actions having a consequence
4:31 so I do think that I can so to the
4:38 extent that you are a moral person
4:41 that’s the role that you fall into those
4:44 molecules have fallen into that
4:46 configuration here it’s no better or
4:48 worse than Hitler’s configuration right
4:50 you’re no better or worse than me I mean
4:53 like objectively speaking yeah we’re
4:55 from a bigger scale
4:58 absolutely not however we do still live
5:01 life on a very small scale when you look
5:04 at yourself objectively in a clinical
5:07 philosophic manner you can say I don’t
5:09 have free will
5:10 nothing matters but when you’re living
5:13 your life day to day you do the good
5:15 thing because it’s the right thing to do
5:16 and and you don’t question the
5:18 mechanisms that are so subtle behind
5:20 that right okay I really hope that you
5:23 can understand it from my perspective
5:24 you are created by an all good god and
5:28 that you have a conscience and that’s
5:30 why you do the right things as you’re
5:33 listening your conscience and God made
5:35 you this way with freedom right true
5:38 freedom which is by definition
5:39 supernatural and that’s why you’re a
5:44 good person and you know we can educate
5:48 our conscience and we can grow in virtue
5:49 and we can move towards God whether we
5:52 believe in him or not or we can go in
5:54 the other direction by being indulging
5:56 in selfishness you know we can go in the
5:58 opposite direction why do you believe in
6:00 God or not you can go away from God
6:02 right so have you heard this sort of
6:07 thought experiment where there’s a ship
6:10 that needs repairing
6:11 and how I replace replace and yes they
6:15 replace one plank it’s still the same
6:18 ship right but as it goes on and on and
6:21 on and on eventually there’s no original
6:22 plank right and there’s no original not
6:25 even one stitch of original ship and our
6:28 bodies are doing this right
6:29 I think our oldest cells are maybe seven
6:33 years old or something like that yeah
6:35 that what you told me I’d be that’s four
6:37 bones I’m not sure how long
6:39 I think you’re on blast I think you’re
6:41 on blast for the like if you haven’t her
6:43 on it you’ve had it for your life but
6:44 I’m not sure I think I’ve had it
6:46 entirely yeah
6:49 so you are you because of this
6:53 particular configuration of energies and
6:56 matter matter and energy are the same
6:58 thing right principle of equivalence e
7:00 equals mc-squared and there’s a
7:02 principle of conservation of matter
7:04 energy which means we’ve got what we’ve
7:05 got it’s neither created nor destroyed
7:07 it just moves around and then with
7:09 entropy of course we have this
7:10 inevitable heat death coming which means
7:12 that there’s definitely a beginning of
7:14 the universe because otherwise the heat
7:15 death would have already arrived if we
7:16 had in a time behind us and so on and so
7:18 forth so we live in a universe that has
7:21 a beginning and there’s a principle of
7:23 conservation of energy and matter what I
7:25 call Lucy is just this particular
7:27 configuration but like we said with the
7:30 boat analogy where you have a plank here
7:32 in a plank there and you remove this not
7:33 a big deal but if eventually you’ve
7:36 replaced everything how is it the same
7:37 and that’s who you are your your planks
7:40 have been replaced your cells have been
7:41 replaced so you’re not just one
7:43 configuration you’re a whole bunch of
7:44 configuration so what I want to talk
7:46 about in this sci-fi thought experiment
7:47 is if we could reproduce that
7:50 configuration by definition it is you
7:53 yeah so there’s no limit to how many
7:56 Lucy’s there could be right if that were
8:00 to occur where we were cloning people
8:03 exactly so it was like all of these
8:05 people were the same I think that for us
8:09 to continue to have a functioning method
8:12 of life we would have to call them
8:14 different things
8:14 however in I believe that they would be
8:17 the same Lucy one Lucy – yeah however um
8:22 what I would be interested in is and I
8:26 understand that there’s some kind of
8:28 difficulty with the you know like is the
8:31 Bible to be taken word-for-word or is it
8:33 symbolistic of something or in the Bible
8:36 when it was written in all the parts and
8:38 put together my understanding is that it
8:39 relied heavily on the philosophy of
8:43 aerosol much of the scientific parts of
8:46 which were disproved during the
8:49 Scientific Revolution and beyond okay
8:52 how do we interpret we interpret very
8:53 literally or is it more symbolic when
8:56 they say Joe went to the store to buy
8:58 milk the first thing we do is we say
9:00 okay well let’s assume that they’re
9:03 trying to tell us that Joe went to the
9:06 store to buy milk unless we have a
9:08 reason to say well it can’t be right and
9:11 then if it can’t be then we look for
9:15 higher levels of meaning not to say that
9:19 there couldn’t be a higher level of
9:20 meaning even if Joe did that go to buy
9:22 milk maybe he did go to buy milk but
9:25 that has a semantic value that means
9:29 something just like you know these ships
9:31 flags and all the colors and the shapes
9:33 and all that sort of thing they have
9:34 meaning everything means something
9:36 everything so there’s literal there’s
9:38 many many layers of spiritual reading
9:40 there all kinds of literary styles in
9:42 the Bible so that’s the first thing that
9:43 I wanted to address the second thing had
9:45 to do with science in particular and
9:48 Aristotle and a lot of interpretation of
9:52 the Bible on that scientific level and
9:55 how it changed over time right and
9:57 basically the church at the time the
9:59 Scientific Revolution they were first
10:01 resist and then say oh no this is right
10:04 but when the Bible said it it was
10:07 symbolic I am told to believe and I do
10:10 believe that there’s no error in
10:13 Scripture that God is a primary author
10:15 of Scripture that it was written by
10:17 humans the patriarchs and the Saints
10:20 that put their pen to parchment or
10:22 whatever they did and that they were
10:24 inspired and that they exercised the
10:26 freewill and they have these
10:28 inspirations and they wrote what they
10:29 wanted to write and they wrote what God
10:31 wanted them to write and God is a
10:33 primary author and they are the
10:34 secondary authors who are cooperating
10:37 with God’s grace okay so there’s no
10:39 error there is no danger of infallibly
10:43 proclaiming a scientific dogma that will
10:45 be disproven later why because the
10:48 dogmas don’t pertain to natural science
10:50 the dogmas pertain to faith and morals
10:52 exclusively so the church can’t say that
10:55 the earth is the center of the universe
10:57 dogmatically it can’t say that and it
11:00 may be that the church at one time in
11:03 the time we Galileo for example thought
11:05 that
11:05 was the center of the universe it may be
11:08 but even if that’s the case it’s not a
11:10 dogmatic position it’s just that was the
11:14 conservative position based on where
11:17 they had come from and they hadn’t
11:20 caught up to the signs but they were
11:22 willing to catch up to the science they
11:23 just want to do it on their own terms
11:25 and that in their own pace and to make
11:27 sure that they cross every T and they
11:29 dot every I and everything’s in order
11:31 there’s no contradiction yeah it’s a
11:33 cautious approach and it’s one that I
11:36 think can be a little bit embarrassing
11:37 looking back on it but I’m not
11:39 embarrassed but I find it reasonable
11:40 because of the burden responsibilities
11:43 that they have and because they don’t
11:46 want to jump on every fashion because
11:49 there are fashions in science and there
11:51 are false trails as well so they just
11:53 want to be sure and I just want to go
11:55 slowly and that sometimes can come
11:57 across as being a little bit stodgy when
12:00 the church looks back on its own history
12:02 and sees that it called CPR evil then
12:07 how can it look at its modern
12:11 contradictions with science in relation
12:13 your humanism and have conviction if we
12:18 look at the lives of the saints so we
12:20 look at the history of the saints and we
12:22 look at the canonization process of the
12:24 saints now I don’t want you to I don’t
12:26 need to generalize this too much I don’t
12:28 I don’t know how frequently it happens
12:29 we have certainly seen examples of it in
12:32 the history of the church okay that the
12:34 Saints at their time are persecuted by
12:35 the church they’re repressed by the
12:37 church they’re oppressed by the church
12:39 they’re demonized by the church and then
12:42 200 years later 400 years later they’re
12:45 seen as a saint and they’re canonized as
12:46 a saint how does this church move
12:49 forward and as it’s stepping on it
12:52 Saints today it’s canonizing them
12:55 tomorrow how does it do that
12:57 how did the Jews who killed their
13:00 prophets claim to be the sons of the
13:03 prophets that they killed you know Jesus
13:06 in his own day was persecuted and
13:09 belittled by Jews who were claiming to
13:12 be the sons of the prophets and Jesus
13:14 turned around and said we have the blood
13:16 on your hands it’s I think it’s always
13:19 case and the the answer the short answer
13:21 is original sin that’s the short answer
13:22 we are in a fallen world we’re in a
13:26 pilgrimage here we’ve fallen from God’s
13:28 grace we’re on our way back to God’s
13:30 grace and in the meantime we’re
13:31 literally crushing each other’s skulls
13:34 in this pilgrimage my life moment to
13:39 moment is like oh my god I can’t believe
13:41 how foolish I was yesterday but I’m just
13:44 as foolish today and what’s worse I’ll
13:47 be just as foolish tomorrow there’s very
13:49 little progress in me spiritually and
13:52 the only thing I can do is say I am
13:55 fallen I’m a sinner I am weak I am
13:57 nothing I am a fool I need God it’s
14:00 humbling if you look at the lives of the
14:03 Saints you’ll see you’ll recognize in
14:05 them that they are like you and they’re
14:08 like me the only difference is that they
14:12 know that they need God they just know
14:14 that they’re weak we think that we are
14:17 tough and we’re tough minded and we’re
14:20 intelligent and we think that we can
14:22 confront the world and we can manage our
14:25 lives and that we can do a pretty good
14:27 job of it but the Saints depended on God
14:30 and they put their faith in God and God
14:33 alone and they were honest with
14:35 themselves about their the weaknesses
14:37 and about their their ability to be
14:39 wrong not only about science but about
14:41 morality and about everything else even
14:43 even about faith so it’s a really really
14:46 tricky question you know the problem
14:48 with evil specifically and especially
14:52 within the church evil within the church
14:54 is a real thing so there’s there’s
14:57 always this punishment that we’re
14:59 carrying with us in this fallen world
15:00 why would someone who loves you punish
15:03 you like that it was always perfect like
15:06 I can understand people who love someone
15:09 you can treat them poorly and be awful
15:12 to them and still love them but someone
15:14 who is perfect and only good and
15:16 everything that is good how could God is
15:19 not the source of any evil ever he’s
15:21 incapable of evil he is goodness itself
15:24 and he’s the source of everything that’s
15:26 good so everything that you love and
15:28 cherish life Beauty goodness justice
15:31 truth everything that’s
15:33 that comes from God
15:36 God is a source of everything that’s
15:37 good and everything that you hate pain
15:40 suffering injustice ugliness of any kind
15:45 all the evils of the world they all come
15:51 from original sin God allows those
15:54 consequences to play themselves out okay
15:57 because he can bring good out of it
15:59 that’s how powerful he is he’s
16:00 omnipotent he can bring good out of evil
16:02 and therefore since there’s evil in the
16:07 world and God is incapable of evil there
16:10 must have been a fault there must have
16:13 been a movement away from all that
16:15 goodness because in Catholic philosophy
16:18 evil is not a thing evil doesn’t exist
16:21 evil is a lack of good so if you want to
16:23 think of it in terms of light in
16:24 darkness there’s light darkness is a
16:28 lack of light right there’s heat
16:29 coldness is a lack of heat there’s
16:33 knowledge ignorance is a lack of
16:34 knowledge there’s love hatred is a lack
16:37 of love indifference is a lack of love
16:39 okay well how do you know that it’s not
16:42 the opposite like how do you know that
16:44 goodness is the natural state so you and
16:48 I take a walk and we discover an apple
16:50 tree okay and you’re like hey look at
16:53 these apples and you grab one and I grab
16:55 one a different one and you’re like oh
16:57 this Apple is perfect and I say oh lucky
17:01 you because my Apple is half eaten with
17:03 mold and worms and decay and then we
17:08 split your Apple because mine is no good
17:09 to eat so we just share your Apple and
17:12 then as we’re thinking about it we’re
17:14 like well which Apple was more Apple II
17:18 was it yours the perfect one the nice
17:23 color and the texture and the firmness
17:25 and the odor and the taste and the white
17:27 flesh and the integrity and the
17:29 wholesomeness of it and the way it felt
17:31 going down or was it mine the one that
17:34 was melting almost in my hand and that
17:37 stank of death which one was more of an
17:41 Apple I don’t think it takes rocket
17:44 science to figure out
17:46 which one is the basis of reality its
17:48 goodness its wholesomeness its health
17:49 its beauty but wouldn’t the natural
17:52 state the goodness and holiness and that
17:56 is the natural state however is that is
17:59 true then wouldn’t it be that love is a
18:03 lack of haze a hatred is a lack of love
18:06 for the same reason that the healthy
18:08 Apple is more of an apple than the
18:11 rotten apple the Catholic teaching is
18:14 that goodness is and evil is a lack of
18:19 goodness so a cancer cell is a healthy
18:24 human cell that gets deformed and
18:27 malfunctions and is out of whack
18:32 it’s disordered right it’s falling away
18:36 from its function and it’s falling away
18:38 from its form however what that is is a
18:41 mutation that happens to occur in one
18:45 spot in seven another so cancer cell and
18:47 another type of cell the mutations may
18:50 be different but neither of them is
18:53 necessarily I’m not saying that cancer
18:55 is good but in the grand scheme of
18:57 things a cancer cell is a cell that has
19:00 mutation that is bad for life and a
19:06 human cell is the result of millions and
19:09 millions and millions of mutations that
19:12 happened to be good for life in the way
19:16 that we see good and bad I think that
19:20 one of the difficulties is that we
19:21 fundamentally see we see things in a
19:24 different way what would be the tragedy
19:27 of my life having taken a leap of faith
19:30 I don’t think that religion in itself is
19:33 bad however I hold a view that when
19:36 people get carried away with religion
19:39 there can be consequences and I’m not
19:40 saying that all religion is bad because
19:42 of that what I mean is simply that
19:44 fanaticism is dangerous right and that
19:47 if you believe I’m not saying that all
19:50 atheists are linked you know open to
19:52 change however the I think that is the
19:55 way that I see things is that if
19:59 I can understand it and experience it
20:01 and touch it and feel it or comprehend
20:03 it then that is my best estimation of
20:08 that it is real and if what I can
20:11 experience changes my view changes right
20:15 it seems to me that atheism is flexible
20:20 more skeptical maybe yes I consider
20:22 myself a skeptic but what I mean is that
20:25 the number of deaths that have occurred
20:28 because of religion like Aquino look at
20:32 that for six more people have been
20:34 killed in the name of atheism than in
20:35 the name of religion add up the numbers
20:38 of deaths caused by communists versus
20:41 death caused by religious the Communists
20:45 have killed more it’s a materialistic
20:47 worldview that explicitly puts atheism
20:51 at its core how it’s not incidental it
20:54 says there is no God
20:56 and we need to make paradise on earth
20:58 because there is no God and there is no
21:00 heaven the only heaven is here so let’s
21:02 make heaven here and how do we do that
21:04 get a committee together to plan society
21:07 and let’s just build it from scratch so
21:10 round up the religious people round up
21:13 the intellectuals kill them and let’s
21:15 start over okay no one’s going to do it
21:17 for us God’s not going to do it because
21:19 he doesn’t exist that’s the story of
21:21 communism so how do you start over
21:24 mass killings and you can’t just say oh
21:26 well they’re not religious so it doesn’t
21:28 matter it matters what you believe and
21:30 if you’re an atheist and if you’re a
21:31 materialist and if you deny the
21:33 supernatural you don’t believe in free
21:35 will and you don’t believe in morality
21:36 that’s a very very very very very very
21:39 dangerous philosophy you may not express
21:41 it in the dangerous way you may not
21:43 round us up and kill us but you’re part
21:46 of that team and it’s incredibly
21:50 dangerous and it’s a reality in the
21:51 world that I live in it’s a real thing
21:53 it’s there’s a spiritual battle taking
21:54 place good versus evil and I’m not
21:57 saying that you are consciously on the
22:01 side of evil but I’m saying you are on
22:02 the side of evil philosophically do you
22:05 mean that all religion is better than no
22:08 religion I’m saying that there’s one
22:11 light source
22:13 and I’m orienting myself consciously and
22:16 explicitly toward delight and saying I
22:20 want to partake of that light I want to
22:22 go to that light and someone else is
22:25 denying the very existence of that light
22:28 then from my perspective they are for
22:32 darkness if they’re not for light
22:34 therefore darkness so people partake of
22:36 the truth to varying degrees the
22:37 fullness of the truth resides in the
22:39 Holy Roman Catholic Church the Jews
22:41 don’t have the fullness of the truth the
22:43 Muslims don’t have the fullness of the
22:45 truth they have God Almighty but they’re
22:47 missing they’re missing the Trinity they
22:49 missing the Incarnation and the
22:51 Protestant Christians are missing the
22:52 sacraments they’re missing a lot of it
22:54 if two people live their lives the exact
22:56 same way and they both strove to make
23:00 the people around them happy and be good
23:02 people and work hard and be
23:05 compassionate and considerate and one of
23:08 them did it because it was right and one
23:10 did it because they thought it was right
23:12 because of God there’s more merit if you
23:14 do it forgot if Tim you’ll do something
23:17 that’s bad and one says they’re doing it
23:19 forgotten one says they’re just doing it
23:21 because they feel like yet then which
23:24 one would be worse the religious person
23:26 anytime that Christians or Catholics
23:28 have done evil done evil it’s more evil
23:31 than when an atheist does it yeah the
23:33 good they do is better not bad to do is
23:35 worse it’s more extreme so when I commit
23:39 sin it’s infinitely worse than when you
23:43 do the same objective sin the same
23:45 projective Act if I take a pen from work
23:48 if I steal a pen from my workplace it’s
23:51 infinitely more evil than if you were to
23:54 do it infinitely more but if I give
23:58 money to a beggar with love and with the
24:00 true devotion in a truly religious way I
24:03 do it forgot and for neighbor for God’s
24:05 sake it’s infinitely more valuable than
24:08 if you give them the same amount of
24:09 money it’s infinitely more liable so the
24:12 stakes are high I can really win I can
24:14 really lose whereas you’re probably
24:17 going to coast into heaven I’ll probably
24:18 end up burning in hell because I have
24:20 been given so much grace
24:22 and just abused it so I could go to hell
24:24 literally go to hell for stealing 110
24:26 from work if I don’t
24:27 and it’s a very very dangerous thing to
24:30 play with religion very dangerous and
24:33 what do you make of Occam’s razor in
24:36 relation to religion I think that’s a
24:41 big big big big big turning point for
24:43 the worse in society in Western culture
24:46 it’s basically the end of the Middle
24:49 Ages to me the Middle Ages are the high
24:51 point of Christianity and we are now
24:55 suffering because of Willie Malcolm who
24:58 was nominally Catholic and it’s ironic
25:02 that I say he’s nominally Catholic
25:04 because he’s a nominalist the name of
25:05 his philosophy is nominal isn’t it what
25:07 I mean he what I mean is this he was not
25:10 actually the one who came up with
25:11 Occam’s razor it was just named after
25:13 him but what I mean is that the
25:16 supporting explanation explanations
25:18 generally the correct one yeah but that
25:21 comes from alchemy may not have come
25:23 directly from his lips but that comes
25:25 from Occam this is what happens in
25:27 philosophy is that ideas are proposed
25:29 and if they’re true bears good fruit and
25:32 if they’re false if there’s bad for
25:34 there’s a lot of bad fruit growing out
25:36 of Alchemist ideas they can seem
25:38 harmless at the time and you can seem
25:40 like they’re pious and holy and devote
25:43 notions but they’re dangerous and that’s
25:46 why we need to always submit to the
25:48 church because the church knows best the
25:50 church is infallible okay no matter what
25:53 we believe in the purpose is to live
25:57 each day being the most kind and
26:01 compassionate member of society that we
26:04 can be let’s say that you and I both
26:07 work at a suicide hotline and so we both
26:12 get a call from the same guy and he’s
26:13 serious he’s not joking around from my
26:16 worldview I can acknowledge the depth of
26:18 sorrow and despair and hopelessness
26:20 especially reason atheist I can
26:22 understand in a real way the reality of
26:26 what he’s going through and I can offer
26:29 him real hope because I believe that God
26:33 is good and that God created him in the
26:35 christ died for him and that he’s made
26:38 to be happy with God forever so I can
26:40 offer him hope
26:41 it’s up to him to take it or not he can
26:43 kill himself and go to go to hell he
26:45 could also show he not come 7:00 in
26:47 heaven he could not kill himself what
26:49 happened what could he not tell me I
26:51 don’t mean like what I mean is can he
26:55 kill himself and yet still go to heaven
26:57 yes you can it only takes a moment for
26:59 that angel to come and say are you with
27:02 God or not do you love him or not are
27:05 you returning his love that he freely
27:07 gave you or not it’s up to you you’re
27:10 free to choose so yes you can kill
27:13 yourself and go to heaven but the church
27:15 teaches very sternly and strictly if you
27:18 can’t kill yourself and go to heaven but
27:20 when they say that you cannot kill
27:22 yourself and go to heaven there’s a
27:23 nuance behind that I think it’s like
27:25 it’s similar to how we discussed earlier
27:27 about the Dalai Lama and how he doesn’t
27:30 want to encourage suicide but it’s very
27:35 delicate very delicate I still think
27:37 that life is better than not life right
27:39 and I still think that life is precious
27:40 and beautiful because in my small-scale
27:43 it is so the guy phones you on the
27:46 suicide hotline okay and he asks you
27:48 will the pain and when I die
27:50 just tell me will the pain and when I
27:51 die everything want everything so my
27:54 table anyway I die yes but it will also
27:56 end if you get okay I think this is a
28:01 little bit unfair because the because of
28:04 the purpose of my beliefs is not to
28:07 prevent people for having felt yeah this
28:12 is just do you feel like you have the
28:14 short straw here in this thought
28:16 experiment I think I do I think most are
28:19 you because I think that I I do believe
28:22 I have a long straw when it comes to
28:24 darkness
28:25 yes basically every time what I mean is
28:28 that okay I think that most thought
28:32 experiments are aimed to prove religious
28:35 ideas because evolution can explain
28:38 basically everything that I’ve realized
28:40 and that everything that you have I have
28:42 in terms of science everything yes
28:44 there’s no portion of science that I
28:45 don’t have action but what I mean is
28:47 that I am I believe there’s a perfectly
28:49 reasonable explanation for everything
28:50 right do you oh yes however as far as
28:54 I’ve ever
28:55 I seen there’s no proof for God so do
28:59 you believe that the universe is caused
29:02 by an uncaused first cause what I will
29:06 use is that we do not have the answers
29:08 are you open to the possibility that it
29:10 is because that’s my god I don’t think
29:13 that there could be something that has
29:15 no cause okay so you your claim your
29:18 belief is that there is no first cause
29:20 which is itself uncaused not in a way
29:23 that i would be able to understand what
29:25 if I told you that no one can ever
29:26 understand it but you can believe in it
29:28 the way I put I think you can believe in
29:30 anything no what if I told you that you
29:32 have no choice but to believe in it if
29:33 you want to be rational and scientific
29:35 kind of walk you through the proof sure
29:38 okay you believe in cause-and-effect
29:42 every thing that happens has a perfectly
29:45 reasonable explanation meaning it has a
29:48 cause it doesn’t just happen without a
29:50 cause right so you and I are sitting
29:55 here today that is the effect of a cause
29:57 which is in turn was the effect of the
30:00 state that preceded that state we can
30:02 look at it like a series of states going
30:04 all the way back in time as far as you
30:05 want to go and there necessarily has to
30:08 be a beginning because of the second law
30:11 of thermodynamics otherwise known as
30:12 entropy where things spontaneously tend
30:15 to disorder all right we can take that
30:18 river the water is flowing from the
30:20 mountaintop down to the ocean through a
30:21 stream we can grab a cup and we can
30:23 scoop up some water the walk up stream
30:25 and we can put it higher than where it
30:27 slowed down naturally but spontaneously
30:29 and naturally it’s always flowing down
30:30 okay but we are like reverse entropy
30:33 machines we can reverse that in that
30:36 little region we can reverse entropy but
30:39 it’s so miniscule in the universe and as
30:42 we do it we’re causing more than work
30:44 yeah so there is a tendency in the big
30:47 picture towards disorder and so this is
30:50 the nature of reality the universe that
30:53 we live in and what that means is that
30:55 given enough time given a finite amount
30:59 of time biological life will no longer
31:02 be tenable in this universe it just
31:03 won’t that means that there is
31:05 necessarily a beginning
31:07 so there’s a first cause which is by
31:10 definition uncaused therefore you
31:11 shouldn’t say oh well I can’t understand
31:14 that my brain can’t route no no no I owe
31:16 you no like it’s the case I can
31:18 understand that that yes
31:21 HR based on what we have that’s reality
31:24 now however it’s not like I put a ruler
31:28 on the ground and therefore the earth is
31:30 flat at one point that was the best that
31:33 we had and now it’s no longer the bet
31:36 we’re using deduction we’re not using
31:37 induction we’re going to use deduction
31:38 we’re going to assume the opposite of
31:41 what I just proposed we’re going to
31:42 assume that there is not a first cause
31:45 which is in a cellphone cost okay
31:47 because there’s a principle in logic
31:49 called the excluded middle
31:51 it’s either a or it’s not a there’s no
31:55 third option it’s a or it’s not a so if
31:58 you say what about B and C and D well
32:00 those are not a okay and if B is a then
32:05 it a but if B is not a then it’s not a
32:09 so it’s either a or it’s not a this is a
32:11 principle of thought so either there’s a
32:14 first cause or there’s not there’s no
32:16 third option
32:16 you can’t just answer chocolate sundae
32:19 that’s not an answer is there a first
32:22 cause or not so yes or no so we’re going
32:23 to do a reduction to absurdity by
32:25 looking at what you think might be
32:26 possible look wait
32:28 of course there must be something before
32:32 the Big Bang that’s something we can ask
32:35 ourselves were going to make it a lot
32:35 more simple we’re going to say that
32:37 there is no first cause that isn’t it’s
32:39 in and of itself own cost okay we’re not
32:41 going to put a ruler on God we’re just
32:43 going to use the duction use your
32:44 rational thought and say there is no
32:47 first cause what does that mean
32:49 logically and rationally
32:50 there is no beginning but just
32:53 everything not just it there’s an
32:54 infinite amount of time behind us yes
32:56 that’s what it means we can reject that
32:58 even if you didn’t believe in entropy in
33:00 the laws of thermodynamics and the
33:01 conservation of matter and energy you
33:03 could still reject it because if you go
33:07 into the waiting room at the doctor’s
33:10 office and you take a number as you take
33:11 your seat the lady next to you has one
33:14 number lower so you won’t get to go see
33:16 the doctor until she sees the doctor but
33:18 she can’t see the doctor until the
33:20 person
33:20 of her I see the doctor and so on and so
33:24 on and so on and guess what you’re not
33:26 going to see the doctor because that
33:29 lineup of people that need to accomplish
33:32 that physical material gesture of
33:34 getting up of their seat and going into
33:36 the doctor which is bound up with space
33:39 and time it’s not a number line where we
33:41 can just say all infinite numbers behind
33:43 us no problem right yeah that’s not a
33:45 problem the problem is when you have an
33:47 appointment and you got to see the
33:48 doctor and then go pick up your kids
33:50 from school that’s a problem and so when
33:52 there’s not just one person ahead of you
33:54 in line not just two not three not four
33:56 not five million not six trillion but
33:58 infinite people ahead of you you’re not
34:00 going to have sorry your turn
34:03 ain’t gonna happen you won’t be here and
34:05 you are here therefore there’s a
34:06 beginning of time therefore there’s a
34:07 first cause that’s um cause there for
34:09 you believe in my god you can’t possibly
34:11 reject that without abandoning reasoning
34:14 yes there must be something first cause
34:17 first cause however that still
34:19 contradicts the conservation of mass and
34:23 energy no because that applies to the in
34:26 the physical universe all of the science
34:29 that you cherish is limited to the
34:31 material universe of matter and energy
34:33 Wonder Woman’s that we believe that the
34:36 there was a university for this one that
34:38 collapsed as our universe well and
34:42 became super super small and I related
34:47 that by the way waging a chain of cause
34:49 effect I’ve included that however
34:51 although one is very good is that that
34:54 universe may have had different laws of
34:56 physics than ours I’ve included all the
34:59 bizarre universes in my in my inner and
35:03 it didn’t work the same way as ours who
35:05 is to say that that universe wasn’t
35:06 caused by something else I’m allowing
35:08 you I’m granting you an infinite chain
35:11 of cause effect with all the wacky weird
35:13 string theory multiverses bouncing
35:15 universes everything you want I’ll give
35:17 it to you and I’ll give you infinite
35:18 time behind us to accomplish all of it
35:20 okay mult all dimensions you want all
35:22 the strings you want everything now it’s
35:26 still the case that there’s a limited
35:29 amount of time that would accomplish the
35:31 heat death to heat that has arrived
35:32 therefore there’s not infinite time
35:33 Highness
35:34 number one number two you’re here which
35:37 means that there weren’t infinite people
35:39 butting in line ahead of you to get here
35:41 right okay I what do you mean never seen
35:45 you go to the doctor’s office you know
35:47 good I understand this but what you are
35:49 that have to do you are here now it’s
35:51 your turn it’s your turn to be you’re
35:55 not a Buddhist that just thinks this is
35:56 all a dream
35:57 right you believe in the physical
35:59 universe so therefore everything that
36:03 happens takes time we don’t live in some
36:06 spiritual numberland where it’s just
36:08 infinite numbers are possible your
36:09 material creature and cause and effect
36:11 takes place within time you’re here now
36:13 therefore there’s a beginning in the
36:15 universe so in that case wouldn’t it
36:17 just be like the universe has always
36:18 been and that’s it you can’t say well I
36:22 skip the line and I’m at the head of the
36:24 line of infinity that doesn’t work there
36:26 are infinite stages that okay and to
36:28 proceed you so you cannot be here now
36:31 with the shape of the universe if the
36:35 shape is spherical or cylindrical or
36:38 whatever it is then all times could
36:41 exist simultaneously there’s no
36:44 challenge to my faith from saying that
36:46 all time might be simultaneous of course
36:47 it is but how do you escape the infinite
36:51 chain of cause and effect or are you
36:53 willing to admit that there is a first
36:54 cause which is uncaused what I believe
36:59 is based on evidence right in a way that
37:04 I can experience and based on pattern I
37:10 add you conclude right well I’m gonna
37:13 conclude my I don’t know anything I just
37:18 like and realistically even if life has
37:23 no purpose and I don’t think that it has
37:26 an inherent purpose we can still enjoy
37:29 it neither of us know what caused
37:32 universe neither of us can conclusively
37:35 know that there’s no proof I claim to
37:38 conclusively hundred percent with
37:39 hundred percent certainty know that God
37:41 created the universe because there’s an
37:44 alternative they’re the reason
37:45 alternative
37:47 the Buddhists are right then there is no
37:50 physical universe but there’s still God
37:52 there’s still that one mind because you
37:54 can deny everything you want to deny you
37:55 can deny everything but you can’t deny
37:57 that you exist so that existence is what
37:59 you’re faced with and you have to
38:00 explain it you can choose not to explain
38:03 it but it’s still a cries out for
38:05 explanation so I’m right no matter what
38:09 I’m absolutely right that God created
38:10 the universe if there’s a universe okay
38:15 is alternative to that and who’s to say
38:19 that it wasn’t a magic unicorn because
38:22 of the nature of the magic unicorn the
38:24 magic unicorn has flesh right not
38:26 necessarily maybe that makes it magic if
38:28 everything about the magic unicorn
38:30 corresponds to my god then it’s just my
38:32 god the magic unicorn is my god what I
38:35 mean it you know okay
38:37 what’s essential is not the name look
38:39 essentially you know I underst
38:40 but what makes you think that humans are
38:44 special and loved by God and will go
38:47 into a state that is no physical that we
38:51 are the special ones that have the
38:53 special souls that animals don’t have
38:54 and first of all I do believe in the
38:57 resurrection of the body so I will have
39:00 a physical body for all eternity
39:02 during death will be separated from my
39:04 body my soul and water we separated but
39:06 I will be given a glorified and
39:08 perfected body a physical body those who
39:12 say no to God will go to hell with the
39:14 Claudia that’s subject to torment and
39:15 that never fully decays because it’s
39:17 always going to be subsisting in pain
39:20 and agony that’s why there’s the urgency
39:22 to get people to choose God and go to
39:24 heaven rather than suffering and going
39:25 to hell for all eternity and the analogy
39:28 I’d like to use if you allow me to sort
39:29 of go into this is the Titanic people
39:32 were on the Titanic when it sank and
39:34 some refused to believe and they
39:36 perished and some took the warning and
39:38 got in the lifeboats and lived ok this
39:41 is an analogy I think for religion and
39:43 what’s happening in the urgency that you
39:44 feel from religious fanatics or whatever
39:47 you want to call them that you have to
39:48 choose life you have to choose God you
39:50 have to work out your salvation with
39:52 fear and trembling because we’re on a
39:54 sinking ship and the music’s good people
39:57 are smiling they’re dancing the food is
40:00 one
40:00 for the decor sumptuous but the ship is
40:04 sinking and if you don’t take that
40:07 warning seriously it doesn’t matter how
40:10 fine your garments are you going down
40:12 right doesn’t matter how much you smile
40:13 doesn’t matter how nice at the time
40:16 you’re having and how polite you are
40:17 with those around you it doesn’t matter
40:19 it doesn’t matter all that matters is
40:20 heed the warning get off the sinking
40:23 ship
40:24 and the way you do that is by turning
40:26 back to your loving creator thanking him
40:28 for everything that you have that’s good
40:30 because it all comes from him and your
40:32 not source of anything good all I got is
40:33 a source of every good that you have
40:34 your life your health your beauty and
40:37 turn to him and return his love what am
40:42 I supposed to do spend my whole trip on
40:45 the beautiful ship sitting in the
40:47 lifeboat in case that may happen no have
40:50 you read the lives of the saints do you
40:51 know what it is to be a saint do you
40:53 know what it is to live for God and to
40:55 give your life to God it’s not a drab
40:58 and our waiting room it’s engaging in
41:01 the world loving your neighbor doing
41:03 God’s work the issue is that you are
41:05 created by God and you’re not even
41:07 acknowledging the God created you so you
41:08 you’re in danger you need to acknowledge
41:10 first of all that you’re not the source
41:13 of your own life I know I’m seeing a net
41:15 source right now again step one check
41:17 step two you need to acknowledge the one
41:20 who is the source of your own life and
41:22 if you want to say mummy and daddy then
41:23 you better go all the way back to mommy
41:25 and daddy’s mommy and daddy all the way
41:27 back and see where you end up and you’re
41:28 going to end up with the first cause
41:29 rationally you will end up with the
41:31 first cause which is uncaused and then
41:33 you’ll acknowledge that and then you can
41:34 dress I got up with all the perfections
41:36 and all the attributes as reason
41:38 dictates how no there is no evidence
41:42 whatsoever that the ship is sinking
41:44 by the way do you think there was
41:45 evidence on like Titanic the night it
41:47 sank do you think there was evidence is
41:48 gone okay well we can’t know how yes but
41:51 we can’t be we’re not actually talking
41:53 about the Titanic well I want to ask you
41:55 is it possible for people to be so
41:57 deluded in their false sense of security
41:59 that they deny reality and then go about
42:02 the business having fun not knowing that
42:05 by ignoring the very real warning from a
42:08 very real captain on a very real ship
42:10 that has made a very real iceberg with
42:12 very
42:13 evidence they’re doing themselves to
42:16 death by ignoring the warning of the
42:17 captain you acknowledge that captain
42:18 Warren the captain sent delegates to
42:21 warn and people continue to eat and to
42:24 dance because it was promoted as an
42:26 unsinkable ship so is it possible for
42:28 people to be so deluded and so
42:30 closed-minded to the reality in the
42:32 evidence of a dangerous situation that
42:34 they just go load their business yes
42:37 yeah is there the remotest chance that
42:41 your life has meaning and that there is
42:43 an all good God that created you why
42:46 would he do that I’m just asking you if
42:47 there’s the remotest possibility in your
42:49 mind it is zero is it non zero the
42:53 possibility zero okay how do you think I
42:57 went from atheist to monotheists how do
43:00 you think that happened the idea is
43:03 appealing I will not deny that the idea
43:06 and it’s like I said earlier debt life
43:10 is better than not life right and so it
43:13 would be nice I’m to go about your life
43:16 believing that no matter what there’s
43:19 this omnipotent being who loves you and
43:23 wants you to succeed and wants to
43:26 arrange all these perfect things for you
43:28 and is that once you die you’re going to
43:32 go to this beautiful place that’s better
43:35 than anything you can imagine
43:36 however a book that is supposed to
43:42 confirm itself holds little value to me
43:46 that’s not the way I sued the Bible I
43:48 believe in the Bible only on the
43:50 authority of the Catholic Church I have
43:51 a living Magisterium the church is the
43:55 Bride of Christ they’re one flesh so I
43:58 don’t use the Bible to prove the Bible
44:00 so that’s not an issue for me it’s an
44:02 issue for Protestants it’s a big issue
44:04 and it’s their Achilles heel but your
44:07 Achilles heel is morality you’ve
44:10 admitted there’s no morality that’s very
44:12 honest of you but one more thing I just
44:14 a question that you we just didn’t get
44:17 sharia sure and that was that how do you
44:20 know that if there is an uncaused cause
44:23 that it is your god
44:26 there’s a lot of ideas that contribute
44:28 to Western thought there’s a lot
44:30 contributed by Catholic philosophers and
44:32 you can’t avoid it in the Middle Ages
44:33 Jewish philosophy there’s Islamic
44:36 philosophy so when I realized that the
44:38 first cause was that god of monotheism I
44:42 immediately just had a whole package of
44:45 perfect attributes and the fact that God
44:47 is perfect implies that God is one
44:50 because if there are two gods either
44:54 they’re identical in their perfections
44:56 in which case they’re not two but one or
44:58 one of them lacks something that the
45:00 other possesses in which case he’s not
45:02 perfect therefore he’s not done so to be
45:05 God is to necessarily by definition have
45:07 all of the perfections which it is
45:10 better to have than to not have now a
45:12 circle is perfect but God is not a
45:13 circle because it’s not better to be a
45:15 circle than to not be in a circle so
45:17 everything that it’s better to be even
45:18 to not be he is that attribute and it’s
45:22 just the principle of an effect cannot
45:24 be greater than this cause so just to
45:27 wrap up what would you say to anyone
45:29 that’s listening nothing but it seems to
45:30 me that as long as we live our day to
45:34 day life in a way that is valuable to it
45:38 it’s like as I’ve been doing this
45:41 research and existentialism which I hate
45:43 a lot it’s one of the philosophies
45:47 it’s Albert Camus and it’s that suicide
45:50 is the only truly significant
45:51 philosophical question and the idea
45:55 there is that before anything else
45:57 matters you must decide that life is
45:58 worth living or not worth living and
46:01 from my point of view if we live our
46:05 lives in a way that is the most
46:09 beneficial to everyone there is nothing
46:14 better that we can do like that is the
46:16 absolute best because you know we are
46:21 the universe briefly expressed as a
46:25 person so you know we may as well make
46:31 the best contribution that we can and I
46:33 think that that is the heart
46:36 of every religion to be a valuable
46:39 member of society and so I think that no
46:44 matter what your greater beliefs are if
46:46 you can do that then you’ve met the goal
46:52 [Music]
46:55 if you like it will do if you think it’s
46:58 got some questions at the end okay
47:01 all you got to do it all you got this

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