Catholic vs. Atheist – 2016-08-27 – Vahik Manookian

My sister introduced me to Vahik in Ottawa, where I interviewed him in his home. He was very gracious and open and we could have continued talking, but I had to catch a bus back to Montreal. A fun chat.


Please excuse any errors as these captions were automatically generated by YouTube.

0:00 my name is vahik manoukian I would label
0:07 myself as a non-practicing atheist a
0:10 Catholic is a Catholic it’s it’s a
0:12 religion it’s a creature a Muslim or a
0:14 Protestant or Buddhist there’s a
0:16 Creedence it’s based on what you believe
0:18 or what you practice orthodoxy
0:21 orthopraxy but at the end of the day
0:23 there is set instructions there is no
0:25 such a thing for an atheist that you say
0:27 go you must follow these things to
0:29 become an atheist so many people can
0:31 label themselves as atheists one thing
0:35 that binds atheists let’s say is the
0:37 belief that there is no God it’s just
0:40 matter and energy and that’s it at the
0:42 end of it the minute I try to say there
0:45 is no god but i do not have proof i am
0:48 stepping into the realm of having faith
0:50 which means i’m contradicting myself i
0:53 do not want to contradict myself yeah I
0:57 don’t believe it but I cannot prove it
0:59 so I’m a non-practicing atheist I wanted
1:03 to take us back to your childhood how
1:05 are you raised what did you believe what
1:06 sort of ups and downs did you go through
1:08 with your fader with your atheism I grew
1:11 up as an orthodox christian i was a very
1:13 good Christian boy I’m an Armenian at
1:16 some point I started reading I saw you
1:19 know like evolution creation it’s just
1:22 my mind one of sudden one day I woke up
1:24 and I said you know what just this this
1:26 this belief doesn’t just make sense to
1:29 me so I just moved on how old were you
1:31 at that time I was 13 14 something like
1:35 that that’s the age i lost my faith
1:37 Christianity I was 14 I remember the
1:39 exact moment when I lost my faith do you
1:41 remember the moment there wasn’t a
1:43 moment for me there was there was it’s
1:45 more it was more like progressive you
1:47 know like I was like okay you know like
1:49 we are seeing this evolution there that
1:51 exists so but there is also a God so
1:54 probably yeah of course God when create
1:56 city has a means of creating things so
1:59 yeah evolution is the mean so you know
2:00 like so for a long time growing up I’m
2:02 like yeah that makes sense but then as
2:05 it further progress I’m like you know
2:08 what it looks like there is no God so
2:11 you spoke about
2:13 the inability to prove that God does not
2:15 exist was there a time when you fight
2:17 maybe you could I was at you can call a
2:21 militant atheist the likes of I guess
2:24 Richard Hawkins things like that they
2:26 are very much into converting people
2:28 into atheism and they think religion is
2:31 evil and the source of evil and all
2:34 those things of course when you’re
2:36 growing up you’re exposed to
2:37 revolutionary ideas such as Marxism and
2:40 all those things religion is evil this
2:43 and that and this and that looking back
2:45 I would never be able to prove there is
2:48 no God scientifically I could only prove
2:52 that let’s say creation did not happen
2:56 exactly as written specifically to that
2:59 but the Orthodox Church agrees with you
3:01 that the biblical account of creation is
3:03 not to be taken scientifically I’d be
3:05 very surprised if the Orthodox treated
3:07 any differently because then they’d have
3:09 to abandon reason did you come out of
3:11 the closet so to speak with your atheism
3:13 to your parents to be honest they kind
3:15 of ignore let’s say yeah okay bohica
3:17 it’s okay we love you and we pray for
3:19 you I’m like okay thank you just keep
3:21 praying for ya did they still have
3:23 practice their faith oh absolutely
3:24 absolutely being in Armenian mainly
3:29 means being an Orthodox Christian is
3:31 it’s very much deeply rooted in you if I
3:34 was brought up as let’s say another
3:36 ethnic background again I would have be
3:38 proud of that ethnic background I am I
3:40 was brought up as an Armenian I am proud
3:42 of being an Armenian basically are you
3:44 attracted to any particular worldview no
3:47 i am not attracted to any specific more
3:51 than the other ones even buddhism I’m
3:53 not sure anymore I think more and more I
3:56 find them very similar which which is
3:59 great I mean there’s nothing wrong with
4:00 religion or anything like that when it
4:03 comes to let’s say specifically between
4:05 Islam Christianity and Judaism I kind of
4:09 feel Judaism is more fun more exciting
4:14 more challenging when you talk about
4:16 theology when you talk about God and its
4:18 relationship with in God and man because
4:21 they really feel that connection with in
4:23 God you know like as a chosen people we
4:26 of this teaching that all of the Jews
4:29 will be saved I’m a Catholic I’m not
4:32 guaranteed salvation when the Jews are
4:33 guaranteed salvation now there’s a
4:35 caveat that we don’t know exactly who
4:38 gets to be categorized as a Jew God
4:40 knows the only God knows so am i
4:42 confident that Woody Allen’s going to go
4:44 to heaven no I’m not it all comes down
4:45 to that question of who is a Jew I want
4:49 to change gears a little bit now and
4:50 talk about the ultimate foundation you
4:53 exist you can’t deny that you exist but
4:55 you can legitimately deny that I exist
4:57 and that the world exists why are you
5:00 comfortable taking the leap of faith
5:02 into the so-called reality which I is a
5:04 Catholic acknowledged as real but why
5:07 are you comfortable making that leap of
5:09 faith to me this whole existence it’s a
5:13 weird thing why this thing exists and
5:16 then the question is why it shouldn’t
5:20 exist the same thing can go either with
5:23 God or without God why God exists why
5:26 shouldn’t it exists are you one hundred
5:29 percent certain that the sensory data
5:31 that’s coming into through your eyes and
5:33 three years and through your sense of
5:34 touch correspond to an actual reality
5:37 that’s outside of you and that’s
5:38 independent of you when i’m looking at
5:40 it from a scientific point of view which
5:43 you know i cannot prove or disprove we
5:46 boil down to let’s say electrons and
5:48 protons and quantum particles that come
5:51 in and out and sometimes their energy
5:53 and sometimes their matter and whatnot
5:55 so if you look at it there is a bunch of
5:57 electrons right in this geographical
5:59 space and there’s another bunch of
6:01 electrons right there turning around and
6:04 doing stuff in our brains and then we
6:06 can communicate when you go down that
6:08 level it’s just a bunch of matter and
6:12 energy going back and forth and turning
6:15 around and understanding each other so I
6:17 mean who is really doing that it’s just
6:19 the existence itself in a way how many
6:21 people do you think are in this room how
6:24 many person is how many minds how many
6:26 beings are in this room right I don’t
6:28 know can consciousness exist on its own
6:31 independence of a flash that rots away I
6:35 don’t know yeah there could be some
6:38 other form of consciousness I
6:40 could be part of a greater existence as
6:43 we know universe it’s expanding
6:44 expanding into what what is it expanding
6:48 into you bring to mind this idea that
6:50 the universe is expanding and cooling
6:53 and it inevitably through entropy is
6:56 going to dissipate into what they call
6:58 the heat death sure if they say so I can
7:02 are you comfortable with that idea I
7:03 don’t care yeah you don’t care no just
7:06 leave your life a good life worry about
7:09 after if there is a God for example let
7:11 him decide and if there is no God just
7:14 be a good person just give your life you
7:17 don’t feel the need to investigate this
7:19 rumor that’s going around that there are
7:22 two final destinations heaven and hell
7:25 you know I mean if there is a God I’m
7:28 comfortable he’ll make a judgment based
7:30 on what you said who is to decide who is
7:33 a Jew at the end of the deal to say God
7:35 will decide and who is to say you will
7:38 not go to heaven because you believed in
7:40 me or you did not believe in the same
7:43 people that gave you the idea that
7:45 there’s a heaven and hell also told you
7:47 that God requires certain things from
7:50 you to get to heaven you need to love
7:52 him first and foremost you need to obey
7:54 Him what is love what is obedience if we
7:59 go down that path don’t kill people be a
8:03 nice person you know don’t cheat I can
8:06 do all of those things without living in
8:09 him if there’s a god do you think that
8:11 the devoutly religious are better
8:14 prepared for death and for their journey
8:17 to the afterlife I don’t know it’s not
8:21 my place to answer that again I’ll go
8:24 back to what you said about saving the
8:26 Jews would Woody Allen go to heaven or
8:30 not I I don’t worry or maybe that’s why
8:32 they called him woody okay let’s talk a
8:34 little bit about free will do you
8:36 believe in free will the question of
8:39 free will you have to somehow be able to
8:42 believe in God first then debate on free
8:45 will or not so for me to believe in free
8:49 will or not I have to first believe in
8:52 God or not
8:53 if I would believe in God i would say
8:55 freewheel is is a very almost an
8:57 impossibility because when you create
9:00 something as a creator at almighty and
9:04 everything you create everything
9:06 everything that comes into that system
9:08 as a program let’s say so you think that
9:12 God’s grace and his omnipotence and
9:14 omniscience is incompatible with human
9:16 free will when you create something you
9:20 create everything belonging to that
9:22 system it’s a closed system everything
9:26 is determined at the end of the day you
9:29 say it’s God’s will where’s my role if I
9:33 have a free will that means there is
9:35 something outside of God’s will is this
9:38 what we are saying the Catholic teaching
9:41 is that God will has always done always
9:43 if a criminal does something evil he’s
9:46 still doing the will of God but what
9:48 he’s doing is the permissive will of God
9:50 not the positive will about so we need
9:52 to make that distinction st. Augustine
9:54 in the fourth and fifth centuries made
9:55 that distinction so God’s positive will
9:58 is always good what God permits all
10:01 kinds of evil and because we have free
10:04 will we can choose to go against his
10:06 positive will God can bring good out of
10:09 evil that’s why he allowed us to have
10:10 free will the main reason he allows us
10:12 to have free will is because love has to
10:14 be free he loved us freely and he
10:16 created us for love why does it know if
10:18 love is not free it’s not love if a man
10:21 and a woman are married and they love
10:23 each other and she gives him a kiss on
10:25 the cheek every morning before he leaves
10:26 for work I think he’ll be a little bit
10:28 disappointed if he wakes up one morning
10:30 and realizes that she’s just a robot and
10:32 she’s programmed to do that love has to
10:35 be free if it’s not free it’s just like
10:37 being married to a robot and if we are
10:39 to serve God we have to serve him freely
10:41 that’s why free will is so essential to
10:43 Christianity we have to serve God freely
10:46 we have to obey Him freely when I obey
10:48 god it’s not a mechanical process it’s
10:51 the most free thing that I do so love is
10:56 something that God created no love is
10:59 uncreated god is love but the concept of
11:01 understanding love as we know it as
11:04 humans that’s that’s a creator
11:06 that must be part of the creation you
11:09 cannot create just the physics of
11:12 universe you have to create the logic of
11:14 the universe the mathematics of the
11:16 universe the feelings of the universe v
11:19 without these we will be just rocks the
11:22 component I think you’re missing as a
11:23 materialist is the supernatural so you
11:26 think of your mind as an epiphenomenon
11:27 of all the molecular activity in your
11:29 brain I think of the mind as a
11:31 supernatural could be I’m not gonna I’m
11:33 not discarding that oh so you’re open to
11:36 the supernatural absolutely as I said
11:38 I’m a non-practicing yes like I cannot
11:42 disprove it if I if I was at that
11:45 practicing atheist I would say no and I
11:47 would categorize myself as a religious
11:49 person because I would have faith in no
11:53 God and nothing else just mat matter and
11:56 energy do you think that logically we
12:00 necessarily need a first cause because
12:02 that’s what my god is my god is garish
12:04 cause I stopped thinking about that and
12:08 trying to have an answer for that how
12:11 can you have matter on its own big bang
12:13 on its own out of the blue as the first
12:16 cause for example you know just just
12:18 doesn’t make sense God is defined as the
12:23 only necessary being existence is in
12:25 essence so my definition he exists and
12:28 by definition he’s the first cause it
12:31 seems to me that you have to accept God
12:33 is there any logical reason to reject
12:36 God if you want to define that this is
12:41 what God is which if it really exists
12:44 you cannot define God by the way sure
12:47 yeah I mean if you want to define God as
12:50 you said yeah there is God but that’s
12:54 the definition that you want to put if
12:56 we are all contingent beings that means
12:59 that our existence depends on something
13:02 else that chain of dependencies hangs on
13:05 something that in and of itself is not
13:07 dependent and that is God the fact that
13:11 we’re here proves God’s existence just
13:13 the fact that we’re here no it could be
13:15 a circular thing based on the recent
13:17 things that i read few years ago
13:19 all the string theory and all those
13:21 things some planes they kind of curtains
13:24 they touch each other and we created the
13:27 Big Bang and all those things which is
13:28 like way more interesting than science
13:31 fiction movies that we have sinned so to
13:33 answer your question Christianity and
13:36 Judaism and Islam that it’s very its
13:39 linear based view if you look at
13:41 Buddhism and Hinduism it’s it’s very
13:43 cyclical thing I I don’t understand why
13:46 this dissipating universe points to God
13:50 God is the first mover and he’s the
13:53 first cause and the only way we can
13:56 avoid the first cause is to say there’s
13:58 an infinite universe that stretches back
14:00 in time infinitely and if time in the
14:03 past is infinite then the heat death
14:04 would have already arrived let’s picture
14:06 the universe as a train that is now on a
14:09 plateau and it’s just running on
14:11 momentum okay and the friction of the
14:13 wheels means that it’s slowly coming to
14:16 a stop okay that we’re still in motion
14:18 means that there’s not infinite time
14:20 behind us so there is a beginning in
14:22 time for that train the motion of that
14:24 okay the other way you can look at it is
14:26 a train going uphill we have to
14:29 acknowledge that there is an engine
14:31 pulling us uphill okay it can’t just be
14:33 an infinite chain of cars attached to
14:35 each other and you can’t just say it’s a
14:37 circle because we need an engine to pull
14:40 us up this hill why we can’t say it’s an
14:42 icicle I challenge you to build me a
14:45 perpetual motion machine using a hill
14:48 and a circle of drinks yeah but that’s
14:51 because we cannot create a non
14:52 frictionless surface hey so you see
14:56 you’re you’re trying to use science to
14:58 disprove basically atheism yeah using
15:03 pure reason we can determine the reality
15:06 of God in the necessity of God my church
15:09 tells me that yeah that I cannot debate
15:12 I don’t think it’s fair for me to try to
15:16 change your mind in a way no you should
15:19 you should try that’s what this whole
15:21 podcast is about is to expose my
15:25 worldview to different attacks and to
15:27 try to find the Achilles heel in in my
15:29 world view because obviously you don’t
15:30 believe that the Catholic Church is the
15:32 one true religion
15:33 I don’t believe there is any true
15:36 religion including atheism having faith
15:39 without reason it’s a little bit hard to
15:41 swallow how important is reason to you
15:45 in your world view central is a
15:48 peripheral it is central what is the
15:52 basis the rational basis for your
15:55 morality I do not have an answer for
15:58 that in a sense of is it from God or not
16:01 and I don’t know whether this is right
16:02 or wrong how much of it makes sense have
16:05 an homage of it is true but there are
16:07 things that okay we’re all social social
16:10 beings and the you know like
16:12 evolutionary wise at the end of the day
16:14 somehow some sort of a social norm comes
16:17 about based on the way you live within a
16:20 group you kind of develop your morality
16:22 so I don’t know I don’t know where the
16:24 source of morality I don’t know why I’m
16:26 i am a good person or a bad person what
16:31 do you want to get out of life is it
16:33 happiness is it pleasure what is it ya
16:37 know being content have friends simple
16:42 life is it necessary for you to get the
16:45 things you want through honest means
16:47 because of the nature of the things that
16:49 you want people that want pleasure can
16:51 use dishonest means to get pleasure well
16:53 if you want love can you cheat to get
16:56 love can you manipulate someone to get
16:58 love not for the love that I’m looking
17:01 for maybe some people they don’t care
17:05 and from you know like they cheat and
17:07 maybe the earth their content with that
17:08 for me personally no I like I want it to
17:12 be real let’s talk a little bit about
17:14 justice looking in the world today do
17:17 you get the feeling that too often
17:19 people do get away with that stuff and
17:22 aren’t compensated are being lifted too
17:24 often people get away with it so how do
17:26 you feel knowing that I have a world
17:28 view where all the accounts are
17:31 perfectly balanced and there is justice
17:33 achieved do you feel envious of my
17:36 position my love you not a bit you
17:39 prefer life sucks and then you die
17:40 ignore I do not prefer but it doesn’t
17:43 mean that because there is that view
17:47 that at the end people will be rewarded
17:49 I do not need to believe in you in that
17:52 view that you just said to continue
17:55 living a good life being a good person
17:57 meaning be kind respect others live your
18:01 life you know don’t lie don’t cheat
18:03 don’t kill don’t steal all the stuff
18:05 that is written but in the Ten
18:07 Commandments I I do not need to know
18:09 that once I’m dead I will go to heaven
18:11 or not to be a good person do you think
18:14 that there’s a connection between virtue
18:16 and happiness there is yeah I mean I
18:21 mean money by it doesn’t buy happiness
18:23 but if you’re a good person you’re
18:25 you’re happier yeah so I’m just
18:27 wondering what you think of Pascal’s
18:29 wager his logical argument was that the
18:32 only rational on same choice is to
18:34 believe in God because even if you’re
18:37 wrong you’re no worse off than anyone
18:39 else but if you choose not to believe in
18:41 God and he does exist that’s the worst
18:43 possible outcome if there is a God he’s
18:46 not gonna care whether I believed in him
18:49 or not for him to judging me to send me
18:52 to hell or to heaven because he’s going
18:54 to say you know what I created this
18:57 world for you and you ended up following
19:00 the permissive we are of not believing
19:03 in me but you did all the right things
19:06 that I want the believers to do to go to
19:09 heaven so you know what you did follow
19:11 what I wanted you to follow so go to
19:14 heaven if God exists in God is
19:17 infinitely lovable I think it’s natural
19:20 that you would love him do you
19:21 acknowledge that I have knowledge that
19:23 you a logic here I’m telling you right
19:26 now that God does exist infinitely
19:27 lovable and how could you dismiss that
19:29 message from me right now I’m not
19:31 dismissing that message in a way I am
19:35 just saying if what you’re trying to
19:38 tell me is correct even though i say i
19:41 don’t believe in god i am already there
19:45 i am doing what he wants for me to do so
19:48 is it really that important for me to
19:53 say I believe in God or not given that
19:56 he knows he knows the reasons is it that
20:00 in
20:00 portant for for you the messenger for me
20:04 to say yes and no if you told me that
20:07 you were married and you never tell your
20:08 wife that you love her I would say your
20:11 relationship will only improve by
20:13 expressing your love to her daily not
20:15 only daily but hourly why does he need
20:18 that he knows everything that God
20:22 teaches me to do religiously like
20:24 whether it’s going to church on Sunday
20:26 or or giving alms to the poor whatever
20:28 it is that he tells me to do it’s all to
20:31 increase my eternal happiness what are
20:34 you doing to prepare yourself for death
20:36 because at dash everything isn’t running
20:38 smoothly everything is falling apart
20:39 usually yeah you yeah so I’m preparing
20:42 now for death what are you doing to
20:43 prepare just accept the reality that
20:46 it’s coming to an end or who knows maybe
20:48 it’s not coming tonight I don’t know but
20:51 what I’m trying to do right now as a
20:53 preparation just to be the good person
20:55 that I think I am just live your life be
20:57 content and see what happens what is the
21:00 best case scenario for you at death if
21:02 you can use your wildest fantasies I
21:04 actually have never thought about that
21:07 even at the very last moment I still
21:10 exist so from that perspective there is
21:14 no precaution effort because I just will
21:16 never experience non-existence of course
21:20 there is the other way that my soul will
21:23 survive my physical body and I’ll move
21:25 on that means there is a God nothing
21:28 decide what he’s gonna do with me so is
21:33 there a rosy picture that you could
21:35 paint of something good happening after
21:37 you die to my soul per se yeah or to
21:41 your body to my body my body will
21:43 decompose like just that’s the best case
21:47 scenario but that’s the reality of what
21:49 we see today so I’m not asking what
21:51 reality is I’m asking you to fantasize
21:53 about oh you’re asking my fantasize my
21:56 god I don’t live in fantasy the Atheist
22:00 point of view where you die and you’re
22:01 Niall ated and it’s like you were never
22:03 born compare that with heaven it’s
22:06 pretty bleak it’s pretty depressing it’s
22:08 not heaven is better you’ll have to
22:10 admit okay
22:14 talk to me a little bit about heaven I’m
22:19 thinking it will not be physical you’ll
22:22 end up in some sort of a conscious state
22:26 that you recognize your part of the
22:30 greater the god you have loved or
22:33 feeling great or whatever for eternity
22:36 which is timeless for you to transcend
22:40 into timelessness that means you’re
22:42 actually have to surpass the time in
22:45 itself so in a way you become part of
22:48 God or you become United with him or do
22:51 you think it could ever become boring
22:53 boredom hatred love things like that are
22:58 part of creation if you transcend
23:02 creation boredom does not exist anymore
23:05 because boredom is part of this
23:07 existence not transcendence can you
23:10 describe to me the best parts of life on
23:14 Earth list me some of the top things
23:16 that are good about living on earth
23:17 married down to one actually it’s the
23:22 knowing that your life will end because
23:26 if I am immortal why would I go and
23:30 let’s say take religious courses this
23:34 year and why would I try to save my
23:37 money and buy a car and so that I’m
23:39 happy for the next 10 years I can do
23:41 that a million years from now so to me
23:45 the fact that I’m dying the fact that
23:48 there is life there is an end it
23:52 motivates me to achieve something and
23:54 what kinds of things do you want to
23:56 achieve I think I’ve can’t achieve what
23:59 I wanted have a good life be a good
24:02 person have a good friend so the idea of
24:06 immortality is a little bit of a
24:08 turn-off because you think you’d be
24:09 unmotivated and immortality on this yes
24:13 but if the immortality of your soul
24:16 exists that you join god it’s a
24:20 different experience in my religion
24:22 there’s a very strong parallel between
24:25 the goods of Earth
24:26 goods of heaven for example we have a
24:27 body but our body is not subject to pain
24:29 and disease and aging we have power we
24:32 have pleasure we have all the things
24:34 that we see here first and foremost
24:36 among which is love and of course we’ll
24:39 have knowledge and we’ll have discovery
24:40 and we’ll have all these things we’re
24:42 not going to be sacrificing any of the
24:44 things that we love and cherish here
24:46 below they’ll be augmented they’ll be
24:48 perfected it will be elevated so it’ll
24:50 be very familiar and it’ll be very
24:52 comfortable and homey and you’ll be at
24:53 home the image that you painted of
24:56 heaven is a little bit more abstract and
24:57 a little more science fiction I am
25:00 interested in understanding why you
25:03 became an atheist and then as you
25:05 progress you discover that there is a
25:08 God at the age of 14 I specifically
25:11 remember having a beautiful dream about
25:13 Jesus standing on a small island with a
25:15 palm tree on it and he just looked at me
25:17 and smiled and I woke up and I realized
25:19 that I had lost my faith and it was very
25:21 counterintuitive because that should
25:22 have strengthened my faith basically at
25:25 the age of 39 I’d been studying
25:27 philosophy as a hobby I had read many
25:29 many things and explored many avenues as
25:31 an atheist my journey in to atheism I
25:35 got deeper and deeper to the point where
25:37 I realized that logically it was not
25:39 scientific to posit the existence of the
25:42 other I only had myself and I became God
25:44 and of course in the back of my mind I
25:46 knew that I was contingent and that I
25:47 depended on many things but I could in
25:50 my soul eps ism i could escape that by
25:52 saying it’s just a dreamer it’s just an
25:54 illusion and i’m just a god who’s
25:56 confused and I was reading Rene descarte
25:59 he had a very offhand solution to the
26:02 problem of solipsism which was something
26:05 like yeah of course God is good and of
26:07 course God exists of course the real
26:08 world exists and let’s get on with
26:10 science it wasn’t set out as a proof and
26:13 it certainly wasn’t set out to convert
26:15 anyone from atheism to God but that’s
26:17 the effect it had on me because of my
26:19 journey it was philosophy that led me to
26:21 salep season Rene descarte brought me
26:23 out of solipsism to God the Father and
26:25 then I had to pick a religion I didn’t
26:28 believe in Christianity but I made the
26:30 pragmatic choice to start my journey as
26:32 monotheists as a Christian because I
26:33 live in a Christian culture but i will
26:36 say that reading st. Augustine’s
26:38 Confessions maybe fall in love with
26:39 christian
26:40 for the first time because I was
26:41 antagonistic towards Christianity and as
26:43 an atheist and I think it makes sense
26:45 when you abandon Jesus Christ you hurt
26:47 him when you hurt someone it’s hard to
26:50 face them but luckily I have the church
26:53 and I have marry and have the Saints and
26:54 I can’t approach Jesus in an indirect
26:56 way and that’s what I have been doing
26:58 took 25 years as an atheist to come back
27:01 to God but I was very very happy and I
27:03 hope it happens to you too if being a
27:06 Catholic makes you a good person then be
27:09 a Catholic just all that I can say I
27:12 would say if my message is to atheists
27:15 from a non-practicing atheist to
27:17 atheists look back and see if you can
27:20 scientifically prove there is no God we
27:23 cannot do that so for us to insist on
27:27 the religious person to give up their
27:31 worldview and join the Atheist worldview
27:34 I think we are on the wrong path in a
27:37 sense at the end of the day both
27:40 religious and atheists can be evil and
27:45 also can be good if you like a worldview
27:52 if you think it’s got some questions
27:55 piano tell all you got to do is all you
27:59 got to do

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