Catholic vs. Protestant – 2016-08-02 – Amanda

I met Amanda at a Protestant meetup. I liked her immediately. I still don’t know what she thinks of me. She’s my first American interview, and my first Protestant interview. I enjoyed our chat, but I may have been too aggressive. God help me.


Please excuse any errors as these captions were automatically generated by YouTube.

0:00 hi I’m Amanda and you’re listening to
0:01 Catholic vs Protestants tell us a little
0:08 bit about who you are what you believe
0:10 and why okay so I grew up in a Christian
0:14 home and you know i went to a baptist
0:17 church for most of my life when I went
0:20 to college I started going to a more
0:24 charismatic church which definitely
0:26 shaped my faith in a lot of ways and
0:29 yeah i would say changed a lot of my
0:31 beliefs about God and my relationship
0:34 with god and my relationship with other
0:36 people as well was there a time where
0:38 you were indulging in sin and putting
0:42 God to one side I was never like a bad
0:45 girl or whatever like I was like the
0:47 good girl you know I probably prided
0:49 myself on that to a certain extent yeah
0:52 so so I guess in terms of indulgence
0:55 then maybe the you know more crucially
0:57 acceptable since like being judgemental
1:01 gossiping is accepted in your church no
1:06 one would say that it’s accepted but
1:08 people do it is it like jaywalking like
1:10 I jaywalk and I feel bad about it but
1:12 it’s like no one actually cares uh yeah
1:14 kind of it’s more acceptable somehow
1:16 would you agree that it would be good to
1:19 make improvement in your personal
1:21 struggle against buzzes yeah i mean but
1:25 i don’t think that just telling people
1:28 or even you know thinking to yourself i
1:31 really want to work on this you know i
1:32 shouldn’t gossip as much it’s not kind
1:34 or whatever for me personally that
1:36 really didn’t do much I mean you could
1:40 tell me all day that it’s like not right
1:42 or something but I still did it because
1:45 that’s just how my heart was at that
1:47 time so I went off to college I’m the
1:50 oldest and then I started going to a
1:54 church there where I would say that I
1:57 really actually encountered God for the
1:59 first time and I didn’t really try but
2:02 just my heart was just changing a lot
2:04 and when I came back after the end of
2:07 the school year my sister after a couple
2:11 weeks she was like you know I at first I
2:13 didn’t want you to come
2:13 because I thought you were just gonna be
2:15 super mean to me like you were before
2:17 but you’re actually really nice now and
2:20 what happened but it was just
2:22 interesting to me because it’s not like
2:23 I consciously tried to change my habits
2:26 but they did change and so now you’re
2:29 part of a church here is it charismatic
2:31 as well uh it is part of the x29
2:35 denomination which is charismatic
2:38 oriented but um I think there’s a
2:41 variety in how different churches within
2:45 the denomination practice gifts of the
2:48 Spirit and whatnot in their services
2:50 like how open they are to it in the
2:52 services but it is like a belief that
2:54 they subscribe to yes now that I’m
2:57 Catholic from my perspective it seems
2:59 like people can float around even as a
3:01 child I floated around with my parents
3:03 to Presbyterian Anglican united church
3:07 of canada and there wasn’t a focus on
3:11 doctrine the way that the Catholic
3:13 Church has a United doctrine does that
3:15 freedom bother you or do you like it or
3:18 do you not even consider it at all kind
3:22 of interesting that you say that there’s
3:24 a freedom of in the doctrine because i
3:27 think you know part of the reason that
3:30 there’s so many different denominations
3:32 is because there isn’t really freedom of
3:33 doctrine so it’s like if people disagree
3:36 about a doctor and then they split off
3:37 and form a different church when i
3:39 talked about the freedom i was talking
3:41 about your freedom as a Protestant to
3:43 change churches you went from Bob to
3:46 acts 29 for example my family went from
3:49 one to the other to the other and there
3:51 was no loyalty to this is the truth
3:54 about doctrine and that’s what I’m gonna
3:55 stick with it whether the person in the
3:56 pew next to me sings badly or dresses
3:59 badly or behaves badly or gossips or
4:01 whatever without judging the church just
4:04 on the music and just on the experience
4:06 from a Catholic perspective it’s all
4:09 about the doctrine and we take it for
4:11 granted that the people around us in the
4:13 pews are just like us they’re annoying
4:14 idiots Protestants seem to be on a quest
4:18 to find a better experience this one
4:22 fits I feel good I used to like this
4:24 experience now I found that experience
4:26 and I met this guy and then
4:27 to a church in it you know riding this
4:29 wave of experience that’s very foreign
4:33 to me as a Catholic now I think it is
4:35 true to a certain extent a lot of
4:37 Protestants will change churches not
4:41 necessarily based on doctrine but just
4:42 because they want a different experience
4:45 although I do think that doctrine does
4:47 play a role to a certain extent were you
4:50 baptized after reaching the age of
4:53 reason or before after because you’re
4:56 about to yes would you baptize your
4:58 child before or after the age of reason
5:00 I’m not sure to be honest I’m sure as a
5:04 Catholic I’m sure that infant baptism is
5:07 good we have certainty of these
5:10 questions that largely go unanswered to
5:13 a Protestant because they’re too busy
5:14 having that experience I don’t even know
5:18 what it is that you guys see if it’s the
5:20 community poor if it’s literally the
5:23 music well there’s a lot of things what
5:27 I like about my church is that there is
5:32 a sense of community and in good music
5:37 well I mean honest to be honest no um
5:41 yeah to be honest I don’t really enjoy
5:45 the worship they’re very much but what I
5:48 do like about it is yeah that people are
5:51 involved in each other’s lives and
5:52 they’re also involved in the lives of
5:54 people outside the church as well which
5:55 i think is important there’s a lot of
5:58 opportunities to get involved and serve
6:01 in some capacity like I help out with
6:04 children’s ministry so I like that these
6:07 are the young population there are young
6:10 families but there’s also a lot of
6:12 college students when I go to church
6:14 it’s elderly women so it’s quite a
6:21 different experience and we don’t meet
6:24 and greet and socialize we just go for
6:27 Jesus Christ in the Eucharist and then
6:30 we go our separate ways
6:32 there are a lot of parish churches where
6:34 there is no real sense of community
6:36 people don’t interact in a way I
6:39 personally don’t mind that because I
6:41 like anonymity and I like doing my own
6:43 thing and I’m just a rebellious
6:45 individual but I don’t think that’s what
6:47 Christ wants I think Christ wants us to
6:48 be in mission and the church is doing it
6:51 all over the world but at the parish
6:53 level we’re missing that in a lot of
6:56 parishes not every parish when we
6:59 neglect something for example when we
7:02 neglect the beautiful gift of
7:04 sacramental confession suddenly on TV
7:07 you’ve got people in the confessional
7:08 literally telling the whole world about
7:11 the most intimate shameful deeds if you
7:14 watch reality TV they have adopted the
7:16 confessional and they call it the
7:18 confessional I’m not making this up it
7:21 really literally is adopted by either
7:23 the Protestants or the 80s or whoever
7:25 because people want to confess what I
7:29 want to ask next without getting too I
7:32 feel I feel like you’re a woman it
7:34 should be more gentle right I don’t know
7:36 if that’s the case I just feel as though
7:39 bars are crying you know you’ll know to
7:41 back off I looked into the history of
7:46 church 21 and acts 29 and it actually
7:49 traces back to a Presbyterian route
7:53 going all the way back to John Knox and
7:55 Calvin and Luther who split from the
7:58 Catholic Church in 1517 or their votes
8:04 and then of course with the Catholic
8:06 Church from there you go back to Jesus
8:07 Christ as a Catholic I always start with
8:10 Jesus Christ and the Apostles and the
8:13 successors of the Apostles all the way
8:14 up until today I can name the person who
8:16 laid his hands on me to enter me into
8:18 the church through confirmation I have
8:20 the names of the bishop that laid hands
8:22 on him all the way back to Jesus Christ
8:24 laying his hands on Peter it’s quite an
8:27 impressive lineage you know I’m just a
8:29 little dweeb in the church there’s a
8:30 documentary trail all the way back to
8:33 Jesus Christ there could be some error
8:34 in that but in principle the idea is
8:37 beautiful so what do you have in terms
8:41 of that family tree from Jesus to you
8:44 well I’ll take this question from a
8:47 slightly different angle you can tell me
8:48 if if it answers a question because this
8:51 is something that I actually have some
8:53 conflicting thoughts about because I
8:55 think that in the in the Reformation a
8:58 lot of complaints were justified and I
9:01 understand why why people wanted to
9:03 break away from the Catholic Church and
9:05 I think that having the freedom to say
9:08 that you think that some part of
9:10 theology or doctrine is wrong is
9:12 important and I think that it’s it’s
9:14 good for helping the church soundtrack
9:16 but on the other hand people really
9:18 don’t honor their spiritual heritage
9:20 like I see the Catholics doing there’s
9:23 really not a lot of respect for people
9:24 who have come before you who have gotten
9:26 you to where you are today because of
9:27 their walk with god and things that they
9:29 discovered and learned about God like I
9:31 think sometimes people can be a little
9:32 flippant about being like well let’s
9:35 just throw that out like this is what I
9:36 think this is what I want to do like
9:38 this is part of why we have so many
9:39 church splits and Protestantism is
9:41 because people prioritize being
9:44 theologically correct over being the
9:46 body of Christ like I don’t think
9:47 there’s really a real understanding of
9:48 how to be the body of Christ unless you
9:50 all perfectly agree which isn’t really
9:53 going to happen one thing that I really
9:56 like admire about Catholicism and I wish
9:58 that we understood more in Protestantism
10:00 is that honor for your spiritual
10:02 heritage and the roots of where you came
10:05 from do you know about Luther I know
10:09 some I wouldn’t say that I’m exactly a
10:12 Luthor scholar but does it bother you
10:14 that you don’t agree with Luther and
10:17 he’s the one that made the initial
10:18 Protestants does it bother you dollar is
10:20 inconsequential as long as we have the
10:22 freedom now to to interpret as we wish
10:26 it doesn’t matter if I agree personally
10:27 with what Luther tots
10:34 do you understand the difference is he
10:37 your hero or is he just a guy that got
10:39 you off the boat and now you can float
10:41 around freely I think probably I would
10:46 say the latter I think that as the body
10:50 of Christ we all know in part we
10:52 prophesy in part like it talks about in
10:54 Corinthians to different context but I
10:56 think it applies in the sense that
10:57 several generations ago or maybe all the
11:00 way back to Luther people had a certain
11:03 understanding of God and it doesn’t mean
11:06 that they were one hundred percent
11:07 correct they could be corrected some
11:09 things and wrong about other things so
11:11 yeah I wouldn’t say that it’s ever
11:14 really good to just say okay this is
11:16 what this one person thought so we’re
11:18 just going to follow that now forever
11:20 and not change if it turned out that you
11:24 were able to just through studying the
11:28 life of Luther and his contemporaries if
11:31 you were able to come to a rock solid
11:33 understanding that this man was demonic
11:37 evil crazy mad not on the right track
11:40 not a good Christian would that taint
11:43 your loyalty to Protestantism versus the
11:47 Catholic Church would it make you more
11:48 likely to question the whole branching
11:51 and sub branching of Protestant
11:53 revolution or is it inconsequential to
11:56 you
11:57 a raving lunatic madman started the
12:00 whole thing off in principle does the
12:05 idea bother you oh yeah it bothers me
12:09 hmm so I don’t know where to go from
12:14 here welcome to the church
12:18 congratulations you know a lot of times
12:25 Protestants demonize for lack of a
12:27 better word Catholics for their beliefs
12:30 about salvation because crust anism is
12:34 all about like just you need to accept
12:36 Jesus into your heart and and you don’t
12:38 think that’s it we do that well some
12:41 Preston’s say no but then or they
12:44 acknowledge okay well Catholics are
12:46 Christians but then they also think that
12:47 Catholics believe they need to somehow
12:50 earn their salvation in addition to
12:52 receiving it as a gift but do you know
12:55 that historically that has been
12:56 definitively resolved the Lutheran’s and
12:59 the Catholics have come to an agreement
13:00 not about everything obviously but about
13:03 the core differences that we thought
13:06 existed between us and them so it’s
13:10 fascinating that these cultural
13:13 animosities can linger even though it’s
13:15 been resolved unity is what God’s all
13:18 about and division is what Satan seeks
13:19 so it has been resolved it’s the same
13:22 thing with the Orthodox Church what
13:24 gives me hope is that when level-headed
13:26 reasonable adults sit down and actually
13:28 try to think about a problem we can’t
13:31 both be right so let’s hammer it out
13:33 whenever they decide to do that
13:35 understanding comes it’s a struggle but
13:38 it’s a struggle of love it’s not just a
13:40 casual dismissal of hatred there are
13:43 many many many many misconceptions about
13:46 the Catholic Church well when you I mean
13:49 when you and I talked before we talked a
13:51 little bit about vigorous you know
13:53 whether it’s literally like the presence
13:55 of Christ in the bread and the wine or
13:57 whether it’s he’s not in the bread and
13:58 wine here least not bread and wine are
14:00 gone and transubstantiated into Jesus
14:03 Christ body blood soul and divinity
14:04 really truly and actually present the
14:08 church is very very very clear in terms
14:11 of the proc
14:11 missions bang that’s the way it is in
14:15 terms of the explanation there is no
14:16 explanation God’s a Trinity deal with it
14:19 there’s no explanation given by God none
14:21 and when the theologians explain or try
14:25 to explain any of these dogmas the
14:27 explanations are not dogmatic the
14:29 explanations are not infallible the
14:30 explanations are subject to error
14:32 they’re not protected presumably you’re
14:35 getting this from the Bible I assume
14:36 right Bible and tradition okay so Bible
14:40 in tradition so I think it’s kind of
14:42 easy to say oh well the Bible says this
14:43 and therefore that’s what God says and
14:46 it’s just obvious but I have a hard time
14:49 with that personally because people
14:52 bring their preconceptions and
14:54 assumptions to how they read the Bible
14:58 even things that are supposedly
14:59 extremely clear so I’m right there with
15:03 you yeah I agree one hundred percent
15:04 that if we don’t have Jesus Christ
15:07 Himself guiding us with His Holy Spirit
15:10 that he said will lead us into all truth
15:12 if we do not have divine protection
15:15 everyone will come up with whatever
15:17 interpretation they want and say this is
15:18 real it’s true and that’s what’s
15:20 happening I just find it interesting
15:22 that Protestants don’t hunger more for
15:25 an infallible authority that will give
15:28 us unity and give a certainty without
15:30 certainty what do we have you strive to
15:34 follow the Ten Commandments um no I
15:38 don’t you don’t know okay um neither did
15:43 Luther he paid his own he hated Moses I
15:46 wouldn’t say I hate Moses but i think
15:52 that there’s a different purpose do you
15:54 follow the two commandments what do you
15:57 mean by that you love of God love of
15:58 neighbor I would say yes but I think
16:00 those are also intentionally vague
16:02 where’s the Ten Commandments are pretty
16:04 specific I think that knowing the Ten
16:06 Commandments and you know knowing other
16:09 commands that God has in the Bible are
16:11 helpful for you to be able to identify
16:14 you know fruit in your life or the lack
16:16 of fruit in your life I think when
16:18 you’re saying you know do you live by
16:19 the Ten Commandments that’s kind of a
16:20 different question do you do any kind of
16:23 formal or informal
16:25 amination of functions do you mean like
16:30 reflecting on my actions behavior
16:33 motivations etc yeah I definitely you’re
16:38 not conscious of the Ten Commandments
16:39 while you do that no I mean for me
16:42 personally I honestly probably spent too
16:45 much time thinking about what I could
16:46 have done better and what I did wrong
16:48 and what I could do right and what not
16:50 do you personally have the concept of
16:54 scrupulosity what do you in the Catholic
16:59 Church scruples are where you’re
17:01 doubting that you’ve been forgiven
17:02 that’s one pitfall that the devil sets
17:06 up in terms of pride where you’re
17:07 constantly watching yourself instead of
17:10 looking to Christ yeah I think at one
17:13 point in my life I was definitely a lot
17:14 more like that but you know what’s
17:17 interesting when you start talking about
17:19 sins of pride like you were saying our
17:22 sins of omission are you know thinking
17:25 about what you could have done better
17:26 things like that you’re still really at
17:28 the surface level of what’s really going
17:30 on because if you just say okay well
17:31 this is a sin or this isn’t a sin and
17:33 then you just stop there say okay well
17:36 it’s a sin I need to repent you know or
17:38 it’s not a sin okay I’m good you’re not
17:41 really getting into what’s really in
17:43 your heart like getting past whether
17:46 something is right or wrong like why do
17:48 you do the things you do because for
17:50 example like you could say that it’s a
17:53 sin of pride for me to just constantly
17:55 think that everything I do is wrong or a
17:58 transgression and you’re right but why
18:00 do I do that I mean I thought a lot
18:02 about this myself why do I always worry
18:05 about whether I did something wrong or
18:08 think that I did something wrong when I
18:10 didn’t and there’s actually a fear there
18:13 you know and it’s like I think for
18:16 different people it could be different
18:17 fears um just kind of manifesting the
18:21 same way is there any difference between
18:24 your approach and my approach given that
18:28 i have sacramental confession
18:31 well maybe you could tell me a little
18:32 more about what sacramental confession
18:36 looks like because I haven’t ever done
18:38 that the Church teaches us to
18:40 acknowledge that were weak and that we
18:43 have to turn to God right that’s the
18:44 whole point it also tells us that we
18:48 need to confess our sins to the priest
18:51 and the priest is another Christ the
18:55 priest has the power because of the
18:58 sacrament of Holy Orders Jesus laid
19:00 hands on him and he landed on hands on
19:02 him and he laid hands on him and all the
19:04 way down to me so the bishop who laid
19:06 hands on me can also forgive my sins in
19:08 Jesus Christ he can do it in the name of
19:10 Jesus Christ and in the person of Jesus
19:12 Christ so that’s what the Church teaches
19:15 and I can tell you that if you ever
19:17 enter the Catholic Church you’ll be very
19:19 happy you did if nothing else for the
19:22 sacrament of confession you’ll love it
19:24 you’ll also love the Eucharist you
19:27 believe that Jesus Christ forgives you
19:29 of your sins yeah and I have to agree i
19:31 think jesus christ does bring a few of
19:33 your sins but i think you’ll still be
19:35 excited if and when you join the
19:37 catholic church to experience Jesus
19:39 Christ in the confessional forgiven your
19:41 sins there is a difference and the
19:43 difference is Jesus Christ I was
19:46 speaking with the Atheist during my
19:47 interview today and he said well if
19:49 Jesus is in the Eucharist so what you
19:51 teach that Jesus is God and God is
19:53 everywhere it’s a paradox it’s not a
19:55 very complex paradox because yes God is
19:58 everywhere and yes Jesus is God but you
20:01 can’t deny that even though you know
20:05 Jesus Christ me of a personal
20:06 relationship with Jesus Christ if Jesus
20:09 came right now and stood before you and
20:11 touched you physically it would be a
20:13 little bit more exciting a little bit
20:16 more tangible yeah and a little bit of a
20:19 categorical difference from knowing that
20:23 Jesus is in your herd and God’s
20:24 everywhere and I’m not downplaying the
20:27 fact that God’s everywhere we would
20:28 vanish if God weren’t with us and
20:31 everything depends on God God is
20:33 everywhere but we are material creatures
20:36 we have body and soul if it’s true you
20:39 want in there’s no doubt about that yeah
20:41 but if I’m wrong
20:44 of Christianity is wrong we can’t throw
20:46 out the Catholic Church and maintain
20:47 Luther we just can’t do it if the
20:49 Catholic Church is a false religion
20:51 christianity as pulse religion and Jesus
20:53 is not God so I will become a Jew I will
20:57 be I won’t become a Lutheran if if the
20:59 Catholic Church contradicts itself and
21:02 that’s all it would take for me to leave
21:03 the Catholic churches for the for them
21:05 to declare a dogma that contradicts one
21:07 of the other dogmas if they ordain women
21:09 I’m a Jew they may be a whole other
21:13 topic we could get you because I’m a
21:14 woman and marries well I have a lot of
21:16 things to say but just going back to
21:18 confession de Protestant churches have
21:21 confession as a sacrament no but I do
21:24 have people in my life that are I would
21:27 say spiritual mothers and fathers to me
21:29 like yeah and I also talk to these
21:33 people about sins so how’s that really
21:40 fundamentally different it’s all about
21:42 having more God gives the atheists
21:45 sunshine and rain and all the gifts and
21:48 the atheists like I just told you
21:50 confesses on national television always
21:52 sick perverted sins on reality TV so he
21:57 has God he has confession but there’s a
22:00 better way he could be a Jew if he’s a
22:03 Jew he’s got all that plus the law and
22:06 then that’s good but he could have more
22:09 he could be a Protestant and then we
22:11 could list the abundance of gifts that
22:14 come with being a Christian vs a Jew and
22:16 then the last step would be going from
22:19 Protestant Christian to Catholic because
22:21 it is Jesus Christ there’s a famous
22:24 saying of Saint Joan of Arc she said
22:26 don’t ask me to explain it I just know
22:28 that Jesus Christ and the Catholic
22:30 Church are one they are one in the same
22:32 that’s the teaching of the church that
22:34 the church is the mystical body of
22:35 Christ God’s showering his gifts on hey
22:38 everybody including you so when you say
22:41 hey look at all the gift to get from God
22:42 look at look at how jesus loves me look
22:44 it doesn’t tell you that I’m on the
22:46 right path yeah it does but it’s not a
22:48 question of removing something it’s a
22:50 question of just adding more
22:53 it’s my understanding that the basis of
22:55 authority in the Catholic Church is the
22:57 scripture where Jesus says to Peter
22:58 you’re the rock and on this rock I’ll
23:00 build my church but to me that seems
23:03 like taking one verse and building an
23:07 entire doctrine around it my answer is
23:09 an indirect answer st. Augustine
23:11 famously said I would not believe the
23:14 Bible if it were not for the authority
23:16 of the Catholic Church when a great
23:18 Saint like Saint Augustine says I
23:20 wouldn’t believe the Bible without the
23:22 authority of the Catholic Church that is
23:24 so comforting to me because I look at
23:26 the birth of the church and the
23:29 documentary evidence it’s true is in the
23:32 Bible but it’s only the unwritten
23:34 tradition that gave birth to the Bible
23:37 it’s only because living and breathing
23:40 witnesses of Jesus Christ and the
23:42 successors of those witnesses sat down
23:45 and said some of these books are
23:48 divinely inspired some of them are let’s
23:51 figure it out and over hundreds of years
23:53 continuously put a stamp of authority on
23:55 the definitive set of books that make up
23:58 the cannon it’s impossible for the Bible
0:02 to give us the Catholic Church it has to
0:06 be the Catholic Church that gave us the
0:08 Bible and that’s exactly what happened
0:10 if you go back in history actually look
0:11 at ironically if you look in the Bible
0:13 at the birth of the church and you look
0:15 at the other documentary evidence from
0:17 Jews and from pagans of the era and you
0:20 look at the birth of Christianity you’ll
0:22 see the followers of this man Jesus
0:24 Christ formed a movement that spread to
0:27 this day and several hundred years after
0:30 the death of Christ came together to
0:33 decide the canon of the scriptures so I
0:35 never used the Bible to justify the
0:38 Bible I never used the Bible to justify
0:39 the Bible I always go to the church the
0:41 living and breathing voice of the church
0:44 and that’s why i venerate the Pope
0:46 because he is the Living voice of the
0:50 church today he is carrying in his hands
0:53 the infallible teachings of the church
0:55 then gets passed on through the ages and
0:57 the Pope is infallible meaning that he
0:59 cannot err when he passes on this truth
1:03 truth / training to faith and morals if
1:06 you
1:06 us to add a dog when he can add a Dogma
1:08 but he can’t subtract and he can’t
1:10 contradict he can’t add a dogma that
1:11 contradicts so for 2,000 years the
1:14 church has been giving us things and one
1:15 of the things that it’s given us is the
1:18 definitive list of books that belong to
1:20 the Canon of Scripture and that are
1:22 divinely inspired that are inerrant
1:24 there’s no air there’s no contradiction
1:25 even though it may appear that way
1:28 frankly I don’t need the Bible I don’t
1:31 need the Bible st. Augustine said the
1:33 same thing he said we don’t need the
1:35 Bible what we need is the church and
1:39 just so happens the church generously
1:41 gives us the Bible do you guys
1:44 acknowledge that it’s in errant there is
1:47 no contradiction in the mouth I don’t
1:49 know if I really you find it slightly
1:51 yet do you find it slightly ironic that
1:54 you a Protestant or less certain in the
1:56 Bible then okay if I had one doubt about
2:00 the inerrancy of the Bible I would
2:02 become a Jew I would leave you know I
2:05 think it depends on what you what do you
2:06 mean by inerrancy no but what do you
2:09 mean by error you don’t know what when
2:11 you say or do you mean that different
2:14 parts of the Bible say different things
2:16 that seemingly contradict each other or
2:18 when you say or do you mean the Catholic
2:20 Church embraces paradox obviously we
2:22 have Jesus Christ in what looks like
2:24 bread so we’re comfortable with
2:25 appearance is not matching reality and
2:27 when the classic example the church
2:29 gives for contradictions in the Bible is
2:33 in Genesis there to creation story bang
2:36 bang so my thought is that if you see
2:41 something that seems like it’s a
2:44 contradiction in the Bible I think that
2:48 most likely there’s just something
2:51 you’re not understanding or there’s
2:53 another piece of the puzzle that you
2:55 need in order to see how these things
2:57 fit together like I don’t think it’s a
2:59 true contradiction that’s completely one
27:02:00 hundred percent Catholic what you just
27:03:00 said catholic and i didn’t even know it
27:08:00 let’s change the subject a little bit
27:10:00 and talk about it one of my favorite
27:11:00 topics heaven tell me what you know and
27:14:00 tell me what questions you have about
27:16:00 heaven what do I know um
27:20:00 probably nothing um I mean God is there
27:23:00 but I don’t know why do you want to go
27:27:00 there so badly or do you yes of course
27:32:00 if there were a magic button right here
27:34:00 and you could just press it and go to
27:35:00 heaven with you bang don’t have to come
27:37:00 back Oh would you press the block right
27:39:00 now maybe a little later after we’re
27:42:00 done the interview no I’m just not
27:45:00 really at a point in my life where I
27:47:00 want to go to heaven I mean not that I
27:50:00 would necessarily what if god said it’s
27:52:00 now or never well then obviously okay
27:54:00 but but i think that uh you know there’s
28:00:00 just more than I want to do in the world
28:02:00 before I what are you more excited about
28:05:00 your earthly life or heaven so the
28:11:00 reason I hesitate is because it just
28:13:00 seems so foreign to me that I just
28:14:00 really cannot really imagine yeah I know
28:18:00 God’s presence as their God is there
28:20:00 like oh you think it’s gonna be foreign
28:23:00 in heaven unfamiliar I don’t know I
28:27:00 don’t know you should know that it’s
28:29:00 going to be more familiar to you than
28:32:00 anything you’ve ever experienced on
28:34:00 earth when you’ve been out on a journey
28:36:00 or something and you go home you know
28:37:00 that feeling right yeah familiarity
28:39:00 comfort feels great yeah heaven takes
28:42:00 that to the next level it’s your real
28:44:00 home your true home it’s not unfamiliar
28:46:00 it’s hyper familiar just like God is not
28:50:00 foreign to you God is hyper familiar to
28:53:00 you that’s the whole point that’s why we
28:57:00 have to go to him not because he’s
29:00:00 strange and vague but because he is so
29:03:00 real real to you and real and meaningful
29:06:00 to you so I’m surprised you’re not more
29:09:00 excited about heaven I just didn’t ever
29:12:00 think of it like that one of the main
29:15:00 arguments against Catholicism actually
29:17:00 it was that you pray to Mary and talking
29:20:00 to dead people is bad it’s like sorcery
29:22:00 so therefore you just shouldn’t do that
29:25:00 like I don’t think it’s sorcery or
29:27:00 something I think it’s legitimate in
29:29:00 Hebrews the scripture that talks about
29:32:00 we’re surrounded by a cloud of witnesses
29:34:00 you know and that they’re looking on to
29:37:00 our races of faith before we join them
29:40:00 so yeah that kind of made me start
29:42:00 thinking okay well it’s not like once
29:44:00 you’re in heaven you’re just totally
29:45:00 disconnected from everything that’s
29:46:00 happening on earth or vice versa so I
29:48:00 think it makes sense that there is some
29:50:00 interaction I think that we need and
29:55:00 want and desire ways to relate to God
29:57:00 physically but there is that danger of
30:00:00 superstition so do you have any notion
30:03:00 of superstition and how that works some
30:05:00 kind of magical formulaic religiosity
30:07:00 you know I think you kind of hit the
30:10:00 nail on the head there when you said
30:11:00 formulaic I think that’s kind of where
30:14:00 you get in to superstition and
30:16:00 Christians are not immune to that like
30:19:00 you with your lucky charm fuzzy black
30:20:00 microphone well this is real I’m pretty
30:24:00 sure but um but you know sometimes maybe
30:30:00 not necessarily consciously but
30:32:00 sometimes we can even treat God like
30:34:00 vending machine yes do the right
30:37:00 principles pray the right prayers and
30:38:00 then do some people prefer diet God died
30:41:00 had done what do you mean oh it’s like a
30:43:00 vending machine you got the coke you got
30:44:00 the diet coke hmm well speaking from
30:52:00 like a charismatic perspective there can
30:54:00 be this mentality that okay well we need
30:56:00 to get right with God in order to
30:58:00 experience these gifts so if I can just
31:00:00 do everything right then God will do XYZ
31:04:00 however there are principles it’s true
31:07:00 but when you start turning principles
31:09:00 into I’m gonna do this and God’s gonna
31:11:00 do this then that’s when you’re getting
31:13:00 into formulas and things like then you
31:16:00 know God somehow it was you something I
31:17:00 know some young people in the Catholic
31:19:00 Church who are really into the
31:21:00 charismatic thing and I have to admit
31:22:00 that I’m very cautious about that what
31:26:00 is the fruit of someone’s life are they
31:28:00 a person of integrity do they love
31:31:00 people and that’s not to say that you
31:32:00 can’t experience gifts of the Holy
31:33:00 Spirit if you don’t have those things
31:35:00 because I believe God he can use anyone
31:37:00 he can do anything he wants to do but I
31:40:00 think that is an indicator though
31:44:00 at first I kind of just thought okay
31:46:00 everything is the Holy Spirit you know
31:48:00 every time that someone prophesized to
31:50:00 me speaks in tongues or goes rolling on
31:53:00 the floor or whatever it’s the Holy
31:55:00 Spirit because I didn’t know anything
31:56:00 then over time I started thinking okay
31:58:00 well the same persons rolling on the
31:59:00 floor every week is God really having
32:01:00 this like dramatic encounter with them
32:02:00 like every single week you know when you
32:06:00 are open to gifts of the Holy Spirit and
32:09:00 you want to start practicing them people
32:11:00 are gonna have excess they’re gonna do
32:13:00 things that are just in their flesh you
32:15:00 know rather than like really directed by
32:17:00 the Holy Spirit I generally try not to
32:20:00 say that something is daughter isn’t God
32:22:00 because I don’t know that i’ve really
32:23:00 been given the authority to discern that
32:25:00 but i do question things more especially
32:27:00 because the church isn’t really that
32:29:00 well developed in practicing gifts of
32:31:00 the Spirit like there’s just in general
32:33:00 not a lot of understanding about it that
32:35:00 you kind of have to have a high
32:36:00 tolerance for making mistakes because
32:37:00 people are going to make mistakes
32:38:00 because there are people you know kind
32:41:00 of trusting God to bring order to things
32:42:00 and like bring things back into line I
32:44:00 should say just so don’t give the wrong
32:47:00 impression that I’m all in favor of the
32:49:00 gifts of the Holy Spirit and the fruits
32:50:00 of the Holy Spirit I pray every day to
32:52:00 receive the gifts and the fruits of the
32:54:00 Holy Spirit so I’m definitely excited
32:57:00 about them and in favor of them so the
33:00:00 seven gifts are wisdom understanding
33:02:00 council fortitude knowledge piety and
33:05:00 fear of the Lord and then the fruits are
33:07:00 charity joy peace patience kindness
33:10:00 goodness generosity gentleness
33:12:00 faithfulness modesty self-control and
33:14:00 chastity in the church they’re always
33:16:00 going to be able to tie each one of
33:18:00 these gifts and fruits directly to life
33:21:00 with God and faithfulness to Jesus
33:23:00 Christ and how it can help bring others
33:25:00 to God and they’re very powerful things
33:28:00 I have to admit that I’m weak
33:30:00 intellectually and sluggish spiritually
33:32:00 there’s room for growth in terms of
33:34:00 holiness right so I think the great
33:38:00 Saints can look at that list of which to
33:42:00 me is like a dry laundry list and get
33:44:00 really really excited about each and
33:47:00 everything on there you know if you tell
33:49:00 most people they’re praying for chest be
33:51:00 there probably not going to get too
33:52:00 excited right probably not
33:55:00 so when you pray you don’t your God say
33:59:00 anything it’s not like I have less just
34:02:00 because they don’t have an audible voice
34:03:00 of God well not audible voice oh it’s
34:06:00 not an autumn no no okay okay no I
34:09:00 personally never heard the audible voice
34:12:00 but I wouldn’t totally discount it if
34:15:00 someone said they did yeah I don’t know
34:17:00 it just gets to an interesting question
34:19:00 though when you start talking about
34:21:00 gifts of the Spirit if your prof sighing
34:24:00 for example then presumably you’re
34:28:00 hearing God’s say something with words
34:31:00 of knowledge for example just having a
34:33:00 supernatural understanding that this
34:35:00 thing is wrong in this person’s body and
34:37:00 then you go over ask them is this thing
34:39:00 wrong with you they say yes you know
34:42:00 it’s like you didn’t know that through
34:43:00 not natural knowledge yeah my concern
34:47:00 would be that it could be demonic well
34:50:00 there are false signs and wonders but
34:52:00 that means there’s also true signs and
34:54:00 wonders I have no doubt there are true
34:56:00 signs and wonders I just don’t trust
34:58:00 myself enough I know how nice Satan is
35:03:00 he gives you God’s gifts that’s not say
35:06:00 it does it gives us stuff and it’s stuff
35:08:00 that comes from God its power its money
35:10:00 its pleasure knowledge so that’s why I’m
35:14:00 very cautious but you’re on a different
35:16:00 path so I don’t mean different paths I
35:20:00 do know I left hand path but I do
35:25:00 understand the scitation also because I
35:27:00 mean many members of my family came from
35:29:00 churches where these kinds of things
35:31:00 were abused and they were used to try to
35:35:00 control people and these are Christian
35:37:00 people supposedly i think if you are
35:41:00 preaching Jesus right like you believe
35:43:00 that Jesus is the Son of God your new
35:45:00 creation and you welcome to the Holy
35:48:00 Spirit’s influence into your life yes
35:50:00 it’s a natural outcome and you don’t
35:52:00 really have that much to worry about in
35:53:00 terms of whether you personally are
35:55:00 being influenced by God or demons if you
36:00:00 look at the history of the Pope’s you’ll
36:02:00 find almost without fail the bad popes
36:04:00 even though they didn’t teach dogmas
36:06:00 that contradict the church
36:08:00 they were prevented from doing that by
36:10:00 the Holy Spirit even though they didn’t
36:12:00 do that they were bad they had male
36:15:00 lovers living in the Vatican with them
36:17:00 and they killed their rival claimants to
36:19:00 the throne and almost without fail the
36:23:00 bad popes sought office the good Pope’s
36:26:00 the sainted Pope’s resisted they didn’t
36:30:00 want to be elected it was a burden to
36:32:00 them and they took the burden once it
36:34:00 was forced on them they did their duty
36:37:00 and I did what God told them to do but
36:40:00 grudgingly they did it because there was
36:42:00 a pain in the butt but they had to do it
36:43:00 because god said so if you read the
36:46:00 lives of the Saints you’ll never find a
36:48:00 saint who asks for a special favor never
36:52:00 never never never what you’ll find is
36:54:00 quiet humble people who are very
36:57:00 cautious because they know pride can
36:59:00 come they don’t want the gift when they
37:02:00 get the special gift for example the
37:04:00 stigmata or something like that they’re
37:06:00 ashamed of it they hide it they try to
37:07:00 they try to keep it secret saint-andre
37:10:00 over here he wasn’t looking for that he
37:13:00 was he was the epitome of the lowest of
37:16:00 the low the uneducated doorman who
37:18:00 everyone disrespected no one thought
37:20:00 anything of him they never paid him any
37:22:00 mind and they just thought he was
37:24:00 nothing and he was nothing and that’s
37:25:00 precisely why he’s this great saint just
37:27:00 like Mary why is she such a great saint
37:30:00 because she was nothing she knew she was
37:32:00 nothing she had nothing to say I mean
37:33:00 what does she say in the Bible how much
37:36:00 other than do what he says do what Jesus
37:39:00 tells you yeah I think that that is an
37:42:00 important point like are you or someone
37:45:00 else who’s doing these things seeking
37:46:00 Fame for themselves when they’re doing
37:48:00 it but i don’t think that humility means
37:50:00 that you just don’t seeker want these
37:52:00 things because paul tells us you know
37:54:00 that we should both what seek to love
37:57:00 people and earnestly desire spiritual
37:59:00 gifts i like the story where all the
38:02:00 disciples are arguing about who’s the
38:04:00 greatest and he doesn’t get mad at them
38:07:00 for wanting to be the greatest he just
38:09:00 said okay you want to be the greatest
38:10:00 well this is how you do it you be the
38:12:00 servant of everyone I think that’s the
38:14:00 tricky challenge that lies at the heart
38:17:00 of every decision we make moment to
38:19:00 moment don’t put myself first derivative
38:21:00 put God for
38:22:00 for me as a man just the romance and the
38:25:00 mystery and the other nests of a woman
38:26:00 is so captivating so exhilarating so
38:30:00 deep and so elusive you can lose
38:33:00 yourself in another human being imagine
38:37:00 what it’s like with the almighty you
38:39:00 know pretty amazing yeah there’s this
38:42:00 compulsion I want to give myself to you
38:45:00 I want to be your slave want to be your
38:46:00 love slave and even if it’s a sick and
38:49:00 twisted perverted expression of that I
38:51:00 think that at the core there’s a natural
38:53:00 longing to give yourself and to enter
38:56:00 into the other and really we get that as
38:58:00 Christians we get to be love slaves
39:01:00 really truly love slaves give ourselves
39:03:00 completely with complete trust and we’re
39:06:00 not going to get hurt and it’s like this
39:08:00 is what everyone wants and we get to do
39:10:00 it you know pretty exciting yeah and
39:15:00 that ties in with heaven there’s the
39:18:00 plenty of imagery in the Bible about the
39:20:00 conjugal fulfillment of that marriage
39:22:00 between us and God so yeah it’ll be
39:27:00 pleasurable it’s always a good thing
39:29:00 right like when Paul was going through
39:31:00 his crazy travels and trials he actually
39:34:00 enjoyed every single thing being rich
39:37:00 being poor being well-fed being hungry
39:38:00 everything drowning being stoned why
39:41:00 because he was making way he wasn’t him
39:46:00 that lived it was Christ who lived in
39:47:00 and that’s the secret for happiness for
39:50:00 everyone yeah like he’s learned to be
39:51:00 content in all circumstance we can do
39:53:00 that yeah we can I’ve never been
39:55:00 shipwrecked or beaten so it makes other
40:00:00 things seem less intense so you had
40:04:00 enough yeah
40:06:00 if you like it will do if you think it’s
40:08:00 well you got some questions at the end
40:11:00 hotel all you got to do is all you got
40:15:00 to do is

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