Catholic vs. Protestant – 2016-08-14 – Andrew


Andrew is a scholar and a gentleman. I was referred to him by the pastor of a local Church29 congregation. We talked over lunch and so the sound quality isn’t great. My voice was hoarse from arguing with atheists at Skeptics in the Pub the night before.

Transcript

Please excuse any errors as these captions were automatically generated by YouTube.

0:00 hi I’m Andrew and you’re listening to
0:01 Catholic vs. Protestant want you just
0:07 start by telling us a little bit about
0:08 yourself who you are what you believe in
0:10 why I grew up in Ontario like you in a
0:13 Protestant family I grew up in the
0:15 Presbyterian Church there and pretty
0:17 much have been part of it my whole life
0:18 but in high school I encountered the
0:21 fake my Protestant faith i would say in
0:23 a general way more deeply by reading
0:26 apologetics works especially by CS lewis
0:28 and then i branched out from there to
0:31 other fingers for me i was raised in the
0:34 fake i went to Sunday school things like
0:35 that but it became more a bigger part of
0:38 my life when it became not just
0:39 something that was part of my culture
0:41 you would say but but intellectually
0:43 part of my way of approaching life did
0:46 you undergo a dramatic conversion as an
0:48 idol people ask that questions like when
0:50 did you become a Christian sometimes and
0:52 it’s hard for me to tell if part of me
0:53 thinks that I was raised one and God got
0:56 hold of me when I was very young but you
0:58 could look at it that it was that moment
1:00 when things became more serious
1:01 intellectually perhaps that I became
1:03 your Christian there was nothing more
1:04 dramatic than that although there have
1:06 been you know points in life when the
1:08 faith has been very let’s say
1:10 emotionally significant but that’s not
1:12 where it started for me it’s started
1:14 with the mind and then moved out from
1:16 there are you in agreement with the
1:19 doctrines of the denomination that you
1:22 follow for the most part it’s a reformed
1:25 baptist charismatic denomination mostly
1:28 in agreement though I’m not technically
1:29 a Baptist I’d be okay with ujin baptism
1:32 yeah so I’m mostly in agreement with
1:34 them enough that I feel happy
1:35 cooperating with them in their their
1:37 life it’s not a deal breaker that your
1:40 one personal doctrine doesn’t align with
1:43 not on that issue no I regard that as a
1:47 more of a secondary matter where I can
1:49 agree to disagree with them at least for
1:51 the time you have no children that’s not
1:53 practically relevant to me do you
1:54 believe that all the Protestant churches
1:56 are equally valid ah no there’s a lot of
2:00 churches that could be classified as
2:01 Protestants in a sociological sense
2:03 where I think some of them wouldn’t even
2:06 be recognizably christian by 1st century
2:08 standards
2:09 did you get an example where I come from
2:11 in Ontario there was one clergy person
2:13 at a mainline congregation who was on
2:16 record as being an atheist at that point
2:18 I’m not sure how what you are classified
2:21 as occurring this is some basic you know
2:24 beliefs I think that Christians have to
2:25 hold you to be fishing one of them being
2:27 theism and a few hundred things there’s
2:30 definitely a varieties in the process
2:31 the world were you is the Trinity
2:34 essential vehicle yes I would say I
2:38 think it’s possible someone could be
2:40 confused about that doctrine and be a
2:42 Christian but I would want to attend a
2:45 church that was clear about that and
2:46 agree with it do you think that Muslims
2:49 will be a good Christian no they’re not
2:51 a Christian I would say that’s why is it
2:54 because of the Trinity I think the basic
2:56 reason is Islam their view of history
2:59 kind of rewrites what the basic
3:02 Christian you would be and so you end up
3:04 having a God who does who’s identified
3:06 by very different set of actions so
3:09 there’s been debate you know throughout
3:10 history in the Middle Ages and now
3:12 whether Muslims Christians and Jews in
3:14 any sense worship the same God in some
3:17 sense perhaps they do but the story of
3:19 God is so radically different that I
3:21 think it’s best to say that it’s another
3:23 religion would embracing the Trinity
3:26 necessarily turn a Muslim into a
3:29 question I’m not an expert on Islam so
3:31 I’ll be careful when I say but from my
3:33 perspective they’re also like to be a
3:35 view about what happened in the life of
3:37 Jesus beyond simply his eternal status
3:40 as the second person of the Trinity that
3:42 they would be necessary to accept to be
3:43 a Christian like that he was incarnate
3:45 and he had a ministry and he died in
3:47 rose again for our sins and ascended
3:49 into heaven so there’s some versions of
3:51 Islam where they deny he died right they
3:53 say it was an illusion so I think there
3:56 again you deny something pretty basic to
3:58 the Christian faith at that point is it
4:00 important to you that price has two
4:02 natures came in and divine yes is it
4:05 important to you that he has two wills
4:06 even in the van yes so are these deal
4:10 breakers in terms of labeling someone a
4:12 Christian for you I think people could
4:15 be confused about the subjects and be
4:16 Christians I’m talking about someone who
4:18 is confronted with those
4:21 facts of Christianity yeah and rejects
4:23 them so knowingly rejects those
4:25 doctrines yeah I would say that if you
4:28 fully understood the implications of
4:29 what you were saying and you accepted
4:30 them you end up denying that Jesus was
4:33 human or something like that if you deny
4:34 that he has a human nature and human
4:36 will and if you’re explicitly denying
4:39 that he has a human nature that he was
4:41 man then yeah that again cuts at the
4:42 heart of the Christian story I think
4:44 pretty pretty directly I wonder what
4:47 would it take for you to become a
4:49 Catholic what are the deal breakers why
4:51 are you not a Catholic the most
4:53 fundamental one would be eventually
4:54 before the interview with all ready for
4:56 the Protestants have the slogan of Sola
4:57 scriptura the scriptures are the only
4:59 infallible real of famous is what a
5:01 slogan basically means and I would need
5:04 to see why I should trust the
5:07 Magisterium as having the guidance of
5:10 the Holy Spirit when it speaks ex
5:12 cathedra to be infallible and further
5:14 why I should regard some aspects of
5:17 church tradition as as infallible or
5:19 incorrigible simply because it’s his
5:21 church tradition and then the second
5:24 part would be the other major Protestant
5:26 issue which is justification I think if
5:29 you look at the scriptures on their own
5:30 terms something like Luther’s doctrine
5:33 maybe not exactly what he said but
5:35 pretty close is in Paul in other places
5:37 and I think insofar as the church at
5:39 Trent rejected those doctrines of
5:42 essentially rejected scripture on the
5:44 way in which we are safe have you read
5:45 the joint declaration I did a while ago
5:48 I don’t say I recall at all I’m aren’t
5:50 impressed I was not I think the only way
5:53 that that became a joint declaration is
5:55 because both sides were equivocating and
5:57 as far as I know ratzinger or the Pope I
6:00 don’t know what he was at the time they
6:02 didn’t accept that as authoritative
6:04 anyway like they weren’t bonding
6:05 themselves to that declaration could be
6:06 mistaken on that but but in principle
6:08 the the basic idea is it works is used
6:12 two different ways by Paul and faith is
6:14 used two different ways by Paul and when
6:17 you understand that and you look at the
6:19 different combinations and permutations
6:20 of his use of those words right we can
6:22 come to a common ground yeah i mean i do
6:27 agree that the Scriptures use those
6:29 terms
6:29 in different ways but I don’t think
6:31 Trent’s doctrine can be squared with
6:33 what scripture says not materiality the
6:36 question I have for you as a Protestant
6:38 is where do you think the Bible came
6:40 from if not from the Catholic Church
6:41 explain that to me yeah so the Old
6:43 Testament came from the prophets that’s
6:45 how the Hebrew people knew about what
6:48 Scripture was prior to Jesus the
6:50 prophets spoke and then wrote it down in
6:52 books and put it in the temple and here
6:54 the ER including Moses as a problem yeah
6:56 Moses perhaps the first not exactly
6:58 Abraham and others before him but the
7:00 preeminent beginning of the cannon could
7:02 be Moses and then the ones after him and
7:05 then after Jesus he appointed apostles
7:07 and they basically performed the same
7:10 function as as the Prophet so people
7:13 recognize their authority immediately
7:15 and if as spokespersons and ambassadors
7:18 forgot like the prophets were how would
7:20 you describe the process of putting a
7:22 stamp of authority on the official canon
7:25 of the Scriptures sure how many years
7:28 did it take and how many councils the
7:30 depends what you mean like if by the
7:35 term canonization you mean the process
7:37 by which say the whole Roman Empire’s
7:40 worth of churches all came to the same
7:43 opinion on the contents of the Canon
7:45 then that took centuries if you mean the
7:47 process by which these books became
7:49 divinely authoritative that happened as
7:52 soon as the Apostles put their pens down
7:53 of course Lee know what I’m after is the
7:56 process by which the church sat down and
7:59 said this is part of the canon this is
8:02 not there are many many writings that
8:03 were rejected that was the Holy Spirit
8:06 guiding us into all truth that’s part of
8:08 that process you’d agree you’re using
8:10 the language of John the Holy Spirit
8:12 guiding us in the truth but I think in
8:14 context that promises to the Apostles
8:16 not to the whole church not to the
8:17 successors of the Apostles no not in the
8:20 sense of the following bishops we’re no
8:21 longer guided into all truth we are in a
8:24 secondary sense than not in the same way
8:26 that they were in a text so is the Bible
8:28 Canon truly the set of divinely inspired
8:33 whoops I think it is yeah and so is it
8:36 primary or secondary guidance of the
8:39 holy spirit that brought that about or
8:41 is it just sheer luck no it’s not luck
8:43 there
8:44 reasons and I think the most fundamental
8:45 reason that Christians acknowledge those
8:47 books as authoritative was because of
8:49 their apostolic origin or in the Old
8:51 Testament case the prophetic origin of
8:53 the herbs they were looking for marks
8:54 and when they found them they
8:56 acknowledge the authority of those books
8:58 now the disputed books in some cases
9:00 they would dispute that they were
9:02 authored by apostolic authors revelation
9:05 for example was one that was disputed
9:07 for a while but the people who didn’t
9:08 think it was canonical also didn’t think
9:10 it was by the Apostle John the ones who
9:12 did think it was they included an
9:14 indicator today most Christians accept
9:18 revelation I know that some of the
9:20 Eastern Orthodox communions have varying
9:22 lists but as far as I know Catholics and
9:25 Protestants both agree that that’s in
9:26 the canon so how would you describe
9:28 Luther’s reduction of the set of books
9:31 so the great thing about being a
9:32 Protestant is you’re not tied to
9:33 agreeing with particular theologians so
9:35 I think he was mistaken in his kind of
9:37 rash comments about James for example
9:39 but he also did translate James and
9:40 included in his version of the Bible so
9:42 he was given to not cool-headed moments
9:46 what do you think of his personal
9:48 Christianity’s morality and his he he’s
9:50 a flawed human being I think he did get
9:52 the heart of the gospel but his personal
9:55 character left something to be desired
9:56 like how do you feel about his decision
9:59 to marry even though I took a vow to
10:00 about almighty to yeah that’s it that’s
10:03 a tough question I think I mean part of
10:05 the argument the the Protestants would
10:07 make is that such a vow is invalid
10:09 because it’s promising something that
10:11 can’t be promised by even being
10:13 perpetual celibacy so I tend to find
10:15 that persuasive but sometimes I think
10:17 I’m not sure have you looked at the
10:18 lives of the Catholic saints not all
10:20 many of them like I’ve read Augusta like
10:23 that there is heroic virtue and there is
10:27 chastity it really it’s a real thing
10:29 yeah oh I know people have the gift like
10:31 Paul talks about it but the question of
10:33 whether someone can decide beforehand
10:34 whether they have it to make a promise
10:36 do you think that someone can decide to
10:38 become a priest you mean in the Catholic
10:40 fence or yeah like Luther did was that a
10:42 job for him oh I see what you mean was
10:44 there a calling or is it just a job my
10:46 view is essentially the offices of the
10:48 church are there for the benefit of the
10:50 church and they’re ultimately there’s
10:52 something God wants to be there but
10:54 particular clerics are authorized by
10:58 their own congregations ultimately
10:59 that’s where they get their office from
11:01 not necessarily some other bishop who
11:03 preceded them so I think if a bunch of
11:05 people became Christians in like a
11:06 prison camp and they decided to appoint
11:08 someone over them that person is validly
11:11 their elder as is anyone what do you
11:14 think of the priesthood in general in a
11:17 days since Luther’s there’s no
11:19 priesthood in the Protestant of
11:20 domination some of the mainline churches
11:22 will call their pastors priests did they
11:25 consider it a sacrament of Holy Orders
11:28 like the church does no crossies don’t
11:29 consider ordination so they don’t have
11:31 sacramental priesthood how do you feel
11:33 about that is it something that you
11:34 hunger for no you don’t feel you don’t
11:39 feel like you’re missing out by not
11:40 having sacramental priesthood
11:41 sacramental confession no I don’t the
11:44 Protestant is marriage is the
11:46 Protestants marriage sacramental no it’s
11:47 not they would consider it an order of
11:49 creation not a particularly ecclesial
11:52 institution is it safe to say that you
11:55 promised so generally speaking would
11:57 have one two or maybe three sacraments
11:59 the traditional number is to baptism in
12:02 the Lord’s Supper and that’s it because
12:04 they’re dominical for the only to the
12:05 Lord explicitly gave that’s why the
12:08 number lets you let’s talk a little bit
12:10 about the Real Presence John 6 yeah yeah
12:12 yeah I don’t think he’s talking about
12:14 the Eucharist there he’s talking about
12:17 himself so I guess we’re talking
12:18 abstract Lee about the passage that
12:20 would be my general opinion we could
12:22 look at at verse by verse but with just
12:24 the idea you have to eat my flesh and
12:25 drink my blood yeah I think we do that
12:27 by faith when we trust in him we’re
12:29 doing that essentially when you say that
12:31 you have the two sacraments and one of
12:33 them is the Lord’s Supper you don’t see
12:35 a disconnect between your symbolic
12:37 Lord’s Supper and the Catholic Church is
12:39 real fulfillment of Johnson there’s a
12:43 disconnect between the process and the
12:44 Catholic practice for sure you don’t see
12:46 your take on the Lord’s Supper as
12:49 somehow compromised or watered down no I
12:51 don’t how then do you see the Catholic
12:54 version juiced up and on steroids yeah I
12:56 think the danger of the Catholic view is
12:58 that you end up substituting for God a
13:01 piece of bread and a glass of wine
13:03 that’s been the traditional Protestant
13:05 criticism of the Catholic practice if it
13:07 were true would you become happen
13:08 if what were true if the real presence
13:10 is true we need to come up halfway no it
13:12 would still be the question of the
13:14 authority I mean it would be one less
13:15 reason not to be again you you would not
13:17 hunger for Jesus Christ if you believe
13:19 that it was Jesus by his body blood soul
13:21 and divinity in what looks like bread
13:23 and wine yeah you would not want to go
13:25 to that I would still think i could get
13:27 Jesus by faith so I wouldn’t join the
13:31 Catholic Church which has other issues
13:32 simply to get something I also get by
13:35 faith yeah if time travel was possible
13:37 and you were transported back to Jesus
13:39 day and you were told that he was in the
13:42 next room you think he’d make the effort
13:43 to go and see him sure yeah because his
13:46 physical presence is something special
13:48 well because like I talked to him
13:49 firstly yeah yeah it’s a different sort
13:52 of presence than you have now in your
13:54 Protestant yeah if it were true then
13:57 yeah it would be different than what I
13:58 have now so you would get something out
14:00 of that contact that physical contact
14:03 with the Eucharist if it’s true I don’t
14:05 know because all of the things that make
14:07 it look like Jesus are gone so it’s it’s
14:09 a unexperienced resins essentially what
14:13 is the role of faith in your
14:15 Christianity it’s the foundation of it I
14:18 think do you see everything that you
14:20 believe no of course not so what I just
14:23 want to get to the heart of faith
14:24 because when I go to the Eucharist it’s
14:26 an exercise of faith it’s not an
14:29 emotional experience it’s not a
14:31 conversation with Jesus although you’re
14:34 free to its it is a communion so there
14:37 is an exchange or persons there but the
14:40 notion of faith is central and there are
14:44 Eucharistic miracle we’re like lanciano
14:47 in italy where it is actually blood have
14:52 you looked at the eko sweet miracles in
14:54 it no I know there were bleeding hosts
14:56 in the Middle Ages and things like that
14:57 are you interested to go into a de lis
15:00 and see not really no are you skeptical
15:03 yeah I would be skeptical what if non
15:06 Christian Scientists had no explanation
15:09 for the fact that this actually is flesh
15:12 and blood they’d still be other possible
15:15 explanations besides Catholicism being
15:17 TRUE
15:18 what if the host that is bleeding and is
15:23 on display has been there for years
15:26 years and years and years yeah I’m
15:28 either a scientific experiment yeah I’m
15:30 not saying it has to be a scientific
15:31 experiment it could be after yeah so do
15:36 you view the Catholic Church is the
15:38 Whore of Babylon like so many do I think
15:41 the Catholic Church is mixed even the
15:43 reformers who had very strong words so
15:45 the the Catholic Church would admit this
15:47 there are Christians within it there are
15:50 real believers that’s fundamental do you
15:53 think I’m crystal I’m not sure I mean
15:55 your character is jovial and kind and
15:58 you express your face but then I don’t
16:00 know much about the rest of your life so
16:02 what could you look to it would be hard
16:04 for me to judge by the fruits yeah yeah
16:08 so I’d want to give you the benefit of
16:12 the doubt it seems like there’s some
16:14 fruit there but I think you’re mistaken
16:15 on something’s obviously I watched a
16:17 video you read Agustin it had a very
16:19 powerful impact on you and he was
16:21 catholic so you took on his religion i
16:24 arbitrarily chose Christianity and for
16:27 me Christianity is the policy okay
16:29 there’s no doubt about that if there’s
16:31 no doubt about that I know the history
16:32 of the church and I know the Reformation
16:34 and I’m not impressed by that I need I
16:38 need authority I need infallibility I
16:40 don’t want a man-made religion perhaps
16:42 you could talk about infallibility from
16:45 your perspective yeah you have the
16:46 infallible Bible right I say the church
16:48 gave us I don’t quite understand if you
16:51 agreed with me on that or not that the
16:53 church gave us the level depends what
16:54 you mean by that yeah I think the church
16:56 in the sense of the believers through
16:59 the ages who lived around the time you
17:01 know the Roman Empire after Jesus were
17:04 the first ones to have these books and
17:05 they as human beings recognized they are
17:09 apostolic and agreed with them and we
17:11 they passed them on physically to us you
17:13 know by copying them and commending them
17:15 to us and we’ve accepted it so in a
17:17 sense in the same way that we get
17:19 Caesar’s Gallic Wars from from people
17:22 writing and passing it on we get it from
17:24 the previous church and in a way more
17:27 than that they’ve commended it to us as
17:28 you
17:28 beings and so is there an infallible
17:32 authority that tells you that the Bible
17:35 is infallible you mean an institution no
17:39 I mean an authority whether it’s God
17:42 Almighty or whether it’s the church in
17:44 my case it’s the church just the authors
17:46 of Scripture themselves and got behind
17:48 them are the authorities for me when you
17:52 ask yourself how do I know that the
17:54 Bible is infallible source of Christian
17:57 truth you ask the authors of Scripture
18:00 yeah basically what you’re saying is
18:02 that sola scriptura is in the Bible it
18:05 is in a way yes solar Scripture is yeah
18:08 in Scripture can you please elaborate so
18:11 I think the authorization of Scripture
18:14 is taught by Scripture in the way that I
18:15 explained it so that the prophets and
18:17 the apostles were inspired and that gave
18:19 us these books so the authority of
18:20 Scripture is taught by Scripture it’s
18:22 self-evident which books belong to
18:24 account we don’t need it we don’t need
18:25 an infallible church to put the stamp of
18:27 approval long the cannons you know it’s
18:29 self-evident it takes historical work
18:31 like in the earliest days there be the
18:33 Apostle Paul there and he would hand you
18:34 the letter that’s how you knew was from
18:37 him now it’s like we have to at least
18:38 consider the possibility that something
18:40 has gone wrong historically but I think
18:42 there’s sufficient evidence on a
18:43 historical level to know that these were
18:45 apostolic quotes i believe clement of
18:48 rome had writings that were considered
18:51 i’m just wondering who made the decision
18:52 to exclude that writing or another
18:55 writing that was considered and how how
19:00 you trust the infallibility of that
19:03 decision or was it an infallible
19:05 decision I don’t yeah I think one run
19:07 Protestant teacher in recent days has
19:09 said that we have a fallible list of
19:10 infallible books that’s accurate okay
19:13 that’s your position yeah we have a
19:15 fallible list of infallible books yeah
19:18 now I’d have to say that’s more
19:19 specifically accurate with regards to
19:21 the New Testament because Jesus himself
19:25 commended the old testament to us we
19:27 authorized it in services yeah so that’s
19:29 been a sample of avoidance yeah now that
19:31 brings up an interesting point I as a
19:33 Catholic and taught by the church
19:35 that God is a primary author of
19:38 Scripture that the writers are human and
19:41 they were inspired and that there is no
19:44 error in the Bible is inerrant he’s at a
19:47 broadly Protestant position as well
19:48 traditionally so yes there are
19:50 Protestants who don’t yes oh yes as
19:53 individuals or as churches as the notion
19:55 okay you believe in the inerrancy the
19:57 level yes I do have a question for you
20:00 you know there’s two contemporary
20:03 Catholic views on the relationship
20:05 between traditional Scripture this is a
20:06 the pardon pardon view and in the all
20:09 right so newman thought that’s not all
20:11 doctrine just found explicitly in the
20:15 original texts but that sometimes
20:17 there’s just a kernel of it and develops
20:18 over time the other view older was like
20:21 there’s no development they were both
20:24 present from the beginning some of it
20:25 was written some of it wasn’t so which
20:27 one do you think you would fall into the
20:28 church allows debate on there okay yeah
20:31 the church allows debate the church is
20:33 working on it so so from a biased point
20:37 of view historically i would say that
20:39 cardinal newman view developed because
20:41 it became obvious that catholics
20:43 couldn’t historically defend the
20:45 presence of some of their doctrines in
20:47 the earliest level of the church so like
20:50 the bodily assumption of mary need at
20:53 Immaculate Conception they’re not if you
20:55 read like the second century text you
20:57 know climate and ignatius those aren’t
20:59 there they come in the fourth century
21:00 things like that as a response to this i
21:03 would say from a bias point of view
21:05 Newman said well okay there there there
21:07 hinted at but they aren’t explicitly
21:08 there what this amounts to is him saying
21:10 like there’s something analogous to it
21:12 in the earliest Church but the problem
21:14 with that perspective is like anything
21:16 is to some degree analogous to anything
21:18 so it’s an uncontrolled kind of rise to
21:20 history I’m with you on favoring yeah
21:23 the other view okay uh that’s not to say
21:25 that the Lord doesn’t work in asturias
21:27 ways and that we were just generally
21:30 feeble-minded okay and when God shows us
21:33 in heaven when he opens up the
21:36 scriptures to us wow you just say oh
21:38 that’s how it works so that was the role
21:40 Mary oh that was you know it’s hubris to
21:43 say anything else you know really it d
21:47 are you satisfied with your
21:49 intellectual comprehension of religious
21:52 roots I’m not no no of course I have
21:53 room to grow yeah it’s more but I
21:56 content being added later if any one of
21:58 the dogmas of the Catholic Church is not
22:01 an eternal truth from about almighty
22:03 then I will become a Jew and no longer a
22:05 Christian I will abandon Chrysler so
22:09 here here I’d want to put a division
22:10 between you know the Bible in the church
22:12 obviously and that’s what we’re my
22:14 questions going is basically like is it
22:16 conceivable to you that Paul might have
22:17 taught something in Romans that’s
22:19 contradicted by later tradition about
22:21 justification know why is it a
22:23 conceivable the Bible is inerrant she
22:27 Paul’s a saint mm-hmm I trust Paul
22:31 mm-hmm I trust the Bible mm-hmm I trust
22:34 the Catholic Church if there’s an
22:36 inconsistency or a contradiction there
22:38 then i will leave Christianity what’s
22:41 your basis for thinking that the
22:42 Magisterium has the same level of
22:44 authority as Paul price on present-day
22:46 Magisterium or earlier ageism in the
22:49 church yeah it’s a continuous
22:51 Magisterium that’s the living Church I
22:54 don’t know if you’re aware that Saint
22:55 Augustine said we don’t need the Bible
22:57 and he also said I would not believe in
22:59 the Bible without the authority of the
23:00 temperature yeah that I’ve read that
23:02 passage if there’s something to that the
23:04 living breathing Magisterium has always
23:06 been with us and Jesus said I will not
23:08 leave you orphans and I will lead you
23:11 into all truth but like if I’m right you
23:16 have independent reason to accept
23:17 Scripture regardless of what later
23:19 bishops or the council say that’s not
23:21 what I Augustine said Augustine said he
23:23 wouldn’t accept Scripture I know but by
23:25 the authority of the church but I
23:26 guessing could be wrong too he was wrong
23:27 about things the reason that i’m quoting
23:30 augustine on that one point and not on
23:32 places where he air is because the
23:34 church gives the stamp of approval on
23:35 that point the church does say that the
23:38 church gave us the Bible the Bible is
23:40 inerrant and the Bible is part of the
23:42 sacred deposit of faith along with
23:43 sacred tradition the basis of my
23:46 Christianity is God the Father that’s
23:48 the top down approach to religion but
23:51 the bottom up approach is the Saints I
23:53 have trust and love for an admiration
23:56 for all of the great Catholic saints
23:59 sure and I trust them and they open up
24:01:00 scripture
24:02:00 I’m not a saint I’m not I don’t have
24:04:00 that level of wisdom and knowledge to go
24:07:00 to the Bible directly i need the church
24:09:00 I need the Saints if you put me in
24:11:00 charge of a new Protestant denomination
24:13:00 and I just interpreted the Bible my bed
24:15:00 would be full of women and have poisoned
24:17:00 kool-aid at the end of it you know the
24:18:00 helicopters surrounding my camp I think
24:20:00 that be priests of your miss reading in
24:22:00 Scripture yeah it does happen but I know
24:24:00 myself I don’t lean on my own
24:26:00 understanding do you know yeah don’t you
24:29:00 have to lean on the Saints too don’t you
24:33:00 um in a secondary way like I put myself
24:37:00 in community on purpose with other
24:38:00 Christians so that I’m open to
24:40:00 correction but are you impressed with
24:42:00 the sanctity and the holiness and the
24:44:00 wisdom of the Christians in a few around
24:47:00 me I’m not I think it’s a mixture and
24:49:00 it’ll always be that way until the end
24:53:00 sometimes I’m very unimpressed by
24:55:00 Christians and how they behaving
24:56:00 sometimes I’m very impressed by how they
24:57:00 behave and I see that the same thing in
25:00:00 my own life sometimes I not impressed
25:02:00 with my own behavior have you been
25:03:00 impressed with a Christian that you’ve
25:05:00 met in real life such that you put them
25:07:00 on par with the st. Augustine or a saint
25:09:00 thomas aquinas store well i mean part of
25:13:00 what’s why we remember agustín and
25:15:00 acquaintances because of their
25:17:00 intellects i’m not sure i met someone
25:19:00 alive today maybe one person i know who
25:21:00 i would say is as bright as those two
25:23:00 but obviously they’re extremely
25:25:00 exceptional people okay what about a
25:27:00 saint joseph just a quiet humble man oh
25:30:00 yeah i know lots of people like him I
25:32:00 mean obviously historically not a
25:34:00 significant but in terms of having
25:35:00 humility sure yeah I know humble
25:38:00 christian people that’s powerful yeah do
25:42:00 they open up the scripture to you yeah
25:45:00 I’ve had you know Bible studies and
25:47:00 Sunday School classes with those who are
25:49:00 all in do some some things that can be
25:51:00 seen more clearly when you’ve had
25:53:00 experience with walking with God you can
25:56:00 you can have a notional knowledge of
25:57:00 things from reading Scripture but it
25:58:00 becomes more concrete when you’ve lived
26:00:00 through it so that’s something I can
26:02:00 gain from people we’ve got department I
26:04:00 want to ask something a little bit
26:06:00 different tangential sure there are many
26:09:00 many many
26:10:00 many really popular Catholics today in
26:14:00 the media and in the New Evangelization
26:17:00 that came from Protestantism spot on
26:23:00 Peter grief he decree yeah there’s a
26:26:00 whole host of them and they’re exciting
26:28:00 their their biblical the fresh and there
26:33:00 they don’t take some policies and for
26:36:00 granted the way most yeah they’re
26:37:00 converted to it yeah yeah what do you
26:40:00 see when you look at these examples I
26:42:00 think a lot of these guys are really
26:43:00 bright I especially have appreciated
26:45:00 crieff than Beckwith also for their
26:48:00 philosophical work I just think they’re
26:50:00 mistaken about soteriology and their
26:53:00 biblical view of Scripture and things
26:54:00 like that okay soteriology is like
26:56:00 justification and things like that
26:58:00 doctrine of salvation okay yeah I
27:01:00 thought you’re talking about one of the
27:03:00 end times called eschatology eschatology
27:05:00 is there anything interesting to talk
27:08:00 about insurance eschatology eschatology
27:09:00 I mean that’s one of those things where
27:11:00 I think they’re definitely distinct news
27:12:00 I’m not sure with the Catholic Church
27:14:00 again coming of course it’s coming yeah
27:17:00 has to be yeah once you’re coming too
27:21:00 much Apostles Creed what’s your oh do
27:23:00 you abide by the Apostles Creed
27:24:00 depending on the the one cause about
27:27:00 descending into hell how that’s
27:29:00 interpreted but yes I say it in church
27:32:00 on occasions what’s your interpretation
27:33:00 of descending event um I’m not exactly
27:36:00 sure what it meant but you’re unhappy
27:39:00 with some interpretation so what are the
27:41:00 ones you’re comfortable with well no
27:42:00 actually I mean one of the uses that it
27:45:00 means he went into the grape and I fine
27:47:00 with that one I’m also okay with idea
27:50:00 that he preached to the the spirits you
27:52:00 know it’s my interpretation of that
27:53:00 passage and they get second Peter so in
27:56:00 that sense I’m okay with that too
27:57:00 there’s a famous icon where Jesus is
27:59:00 pulling out a mini the harrowing of hell
28:01:00 yeah the idea yeah i think i read a
28:04:00 while back a lot of literature on an
28:06:00 early church eschatology and they think
28:08:00 if it’s understood that the saints
28:12:00 before Jesus
28:13:00 had a distinct experience in the
28:15:00 afterlife from the nonsense invite
28:19:00 Saints I mean Christians not in the
28:21:00 technical sense of the Catholic Church
28:22:00 then I could allow there’s something
28:24:00 like that like you went to the
28:25:00 underworld and brought them up but they
28:27:00 weren’t indiscriminately experiencing
28:29:00 the same thing it’s like the store the
28:31:00 parable about Lazarus and the hand eyes
28:33:00 something like that sure yeah i think
28:36:00 that the Church teaches that we are in
28:39:00 the end times the church age is the end
28:42:00 times yeah I think that I’m comfortable
28:44:00 with that I think that’s the Catholic
28:46:00 position but I’m not exactly sure one
28:48:00 the only thing I know is that we don’t
28:50:00 know the hour and a day I agree yeah
28:53:00 that that’s one thing that’s for sure
28:55:00 are there any other questions uniform
28:57:00 did you get the answer to your question
29:00:00 about why I I probably the trick i say
29:02:00 the way you answered it is like
29:03:00 psychologically in your own experience
29:05:00 why you continue to trust them from my
29:09:00 point of view it’s like the Catholic
29:11:00 view is like it goes God Jesus apostles
29:13:00 successors to the Apostles but the
29:16:00 connection between apostles and their
29:18:00 successors I don’t think is there in the
29:20:00 sense of the Catholic Church thinks it
29:22:00 is evening it’s fiction the way Clement
29:24:00 of Rome was I think players there’s a
29:26:00 succession of bishops but they don’t
29:28:00 hold the opposite of a possible nor do
29:31:00 they have the authority via possible
29:32:00 they have a type of authority but it’s a
29:35:00 limited infallible one fallible and
29:37:00 fellow gotta see her there yeah so yeah
29:44:00 I mean it’s a question of history for my
29:46:00 point of view like what did the apostles
29:47:00 do did they pass on their own level of
29:50:00 authority or did that in with them do
29:53:00 you remember in the Bible yeah when they
29:55:00 replace Judas yes yeah doesn’t that tell
29:59:00 you something yeah they preserve the
30:01:00 number of the twelve but we don’t have a
30:03:00 12 a group of 12 anymore so I think that
30:05:00 office is ceased
30:08:00 in that sense okay see it was just to
30:11:00 complete the 12 and then when they died
30:13:00 yeah cuz I mean we don’t have a set of
30:16:00 12 anymore nor do we have a single
30:18:00 apostle to the Gentiles person like all
30:22:00 you want to see a one-to-one correlation
30:24:00 with well I mean if I if I’m to believe
30:27:00 that their level of authority is passed
30:28:00 on I want to see evidence of that and I
30:31:00 don’t see it I think the early church
30:33:00 recognized the Apostles are unique and
30:35:00 that’s how they recognize the Canon of
30:36:00 Scripture and the fact that every Bishop
30:39:00 wasn’t adding their sermons to the canon
30:41:00 of scripture shows us that they’re not
30:43:00 on the same level as the apostles were
30:44:00 for one piece of evidence the early
30:47:00 church included books in the in
30:49:00 Scripture because they’re apostolic but
30:52:00 we don’t see them including just like
30:54:00 the sermons of any random bishop in the
30:56:00 canon just because they’re vicious like
30:57:00 so the church is the mystical body of
30:59:00 Christ and it is the pillar and ground
31:01:00 of truth all right that’s on the Nexus
31:05:00 yes yes but the reason that I’m
31:08:00 confident that the Catholic Church is
31:10:00 divine and divinely protected me
31:12:00 divinely guided is because of the
31:18:00 unwavering dogmatic tradition if you
31:23:00 look at the Reformers if you look at the
31:25:00 introduction of compromise if you look
31:29:00 at henry the eighth with divorce and
31:30:00 then what follows from that look at
31:32:00 where we are today in anglican church
31:33:00 would Henry the Eighth the predictive at
31:36:00 would Luther predicted well I can tell
31:39:00 you actually that Luther was very
31:43:00 disgusted revolted by people embracing
31:48:00 Christians of his Bey embracing his
31:51:00 teaching which was to interpret for
31:55:00 themselves he was disgusted with the
31:56:00 interpretations of those machines around
31:58:00 well he definitely had a problem with
32:00:00 the end of a fests and groups like that
32:01:00 ugly and the
32:03:00 m-man zwingli and and the calvess like I
32:06:00 said Luther was particularly strong
32:08:00 headed if anyone deviated from his view
32:11:00 at all he kind of regarded them as an
32:12:00 enemy so if we look at a Lutheran today
32:15:00 with a Lutheran believes today and what
32:16:00 Luther himself not yeah I would go so
32:19:00 far as to say that you cannot find
32:21:00 anyone today who believes what Luther
32:24:00 believe on his deathbed you will not
32:26:00 find one do you mean on every single
32:28:00 issue yes maybe I mean that doesn’t
32:31:00 matter like you may say well you know
32:33:00 Henry the Eighth wanted an heir so you
32:35:00 want to divorce therefore it wasn’t a
32:38:00 big deal but look at where the enkarans
32:40:00 are today hey sure I don’t actually
32:42:00 accept that is correct I think there has
32:44:00 been changed in views over the years
32:47:00 within the Catholic Church yeah I mean
32:49:00 you can compare Church bodies are
32:51:00 different opinions on things but I’m
32:52:00 talking about dogma so you’re
32:54:00 restricting it to a certain class of
32:56:00 issues of course I mean the Pope do you
32:58:00 think that I trust the Pope and I
32:59:00 believe everything that comes out of his
33:01:00 mouth probably no no I don’t because you
33:02:00 seem to be more traditional type exactly
33:03:00 no it’s not because he’s left I don’t
33:08:00 trust any hope as a man I trust the
33:10:00 office of Cobras it be infallible alpha
33:12:00 so if we’re defining you know the field
33:15:00 of things that have continued in terms
33:18:00 of dr. like we’re not saying every issue
33:19:00 has to be continuous but on certain core
33:21:00 issues there’s a there’s a line there’s
33:23:00 a hierarchy of truth even within even
33:28:00 within dogmatic proclamations there’s a
33:30:00 there’s a hierarchy so I would say the
33:33:00 Protestant view of apostolic succession
33:35:00 is that the succession is in doctrine to
33:38:00 a large degree if you look through
33:39:00 history you can find people who agree
33:40:00 with the basic gospel throughout history
33:44:00 sometimes it’s fewer than other times
33:46:00 but there is a kind of succession but
33:49:00 it’s not an institutional hierarchical
33:50:00 passed on by the laying on of hands from
33:53:00 Bishop to Bishop do you think that
33:54:00 divorce is Christian I think it can be
33:57:00 in some circumstances okay not likely
34:00:00 but there can be reasons for it ever
34:02:00 valid
34:03:00 okay I’m just wondering what what change
34:07:00 in doctrine would you consider major the
34:10:00 things that are clear and repeated and
34:11:00 regarded as in most important a
34:13:00 scripture are like the basic gospel
34:15:00 something like the Apostle to read the
34:17:00 idea of the Trinity what did Jesus say
34:19:00 both of us in Matthew he adds this
34:21:00 exception clause about cornea which
34:24:00 Protestants have regarded as adultery so
34:27:00 that that would allow for a valley
34:28:00 divorce I think that’s that is the
34:32:00 traditional Protestant view I think it’s
34:33:00 probably most likely to be correct and
34:35:00 then Paul as a so-called Paul I’m
34:37:00 privileged in first Corinthians 7 i
34:39:00 think is another valid grounds for
34:41:00 divorce which is abandonment essentially
34:43:00 so I think when someone strikes at the
34:45:00 very heart of the marriage relationship
34:46:00 like in those two ways it could be
34:49:00 permissible not mandated you don’t you
34:51:00 don’t see a strength in the Catholic
34:53:00 Church’s dogmatic no I don’t it doesn’t
34:55:00 give me a reason to trust the
34:56:00 institution per se partly because I
34:58:00 don’t have a problem saying some of
35:00:00 those people were Christian like I think
35:01:00 Thomas for example so deep do you think
35:06:00 that it’s possible in principle that the
35:09:00 Catholic Church could define a dogma
35:13:00 that contradicts another dog yes because
35:16:00 i think the catholic church is a human
35:17:00 institution that can make mistakes so
35:18:00 sure so can you explain to me why that
35:20:00 hasn’t happened yet understand years
35:23:00 particularly with the with the bad popes
35:25:00 your Catholics have different views and
35:27:00 once themselves over what things have
35:28:00 been real you know remain infallible so
35:30:00 he’s Vatican to for example supposed to
35:32:00 be there was no dogmatic teaching ok so
35:37:00 then Vice by some standards of her
35:41:00 there’s been like two pronouncements in
35:42:00 all of history that are papal X
35:44:00 cathedrals there’s more to follow
35:45:00 ability than ex cathedra statements sure
35:48:00 there are dogmas that were not x 54
35:52:00 definitions so then I’d have to know
35:54:00 like the criterion by which these were
35:56:00 decided upon why these would fit into
35:59:00 the category is infallible that isn’t
36:01:00 because these Cathedral the criteria are
36:03:00 the same criteria that you gave for what
36:06:00 you want you adhere to it’s the unbroken
36:10:00 tradition since that’s what yeah that’s
36:13:00 not why I believe in those doctrines
36:16:00 I believe in them because it’s apostolic
36:17:00 yeah not because it’s been passed on per
36:20:00 se it’s that initial drift that’s
36:24:00 unchanging whether it gets passed on or
36:26:00 not right yeah but you’ll be forgotten
36:28:00 or you don’t see you don’t see the
36:31:00 consistency in the Catholic tradition of
36:33:00 carrying on the teachings of the
36:35:00 Apostles I mean it isn’t in the sense of
36:37:00 like well when one church when one Pope
36:40:00 chief is a heresy he’s excommunicated
36:43:00 and so is sort of wiped out of the chain
36:46:00 so by that definition you’re eliminating
36:48:00 all the people who disagree it doesn’t
36:51:00 seem remarkable to need it when you have
36:53:00 a mechanism for removing people who
36:54:00 don’t disagree that everyone agrees it’s
36:56:00 the true Scott are gonna no true
36:59:00 Scotsman fallacy I I something like that
37:01:00 I guess I could come up with human
37:04:00 reasons while old institution would
37:06:00 continue to teach at the same doctrine
37:08:00 it doesn’t mean i’ll believe in it for
37:09:00 that reason alone I believe in the
37:11:00 Apostle for more than that reason okay
37:13:00 because they they were appointed by
37:15:00 Christ who died and rose again things
37:17:00 things like that I think if people
37:20:00 search the Scriptures they’ll find the
37:22:00 truth if they do it with sincerity and
37:23:00 humility and they’re willing to
37:24:00 experience pain to find the truth the
37:28:00 pain of loss of their own previous
37:30:00 opinions or whatever that might mean I
37:32:00 trust the spirit works through that so I
37:35:00 would say the same to you or anyone else
37:36:00 search the Scriptures yourself see we do
37:39:00 find if you like it will do if you think
37:46:00 it’s will you got some questions lesbian
37:48:00 hotel all you gotta do is all you got to
37:52:00 do is

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