Mr. Rand is the president of the Atheist Freethinkers association. We had a nice long chat in behind the Sanctuaire Saint-Sacrament church. He was a great speaker, which made editing a breeze.
Transcript
Please excuse any errors as these captions were automatically generated by YouTube.
0:00 | my name is David Rand and you’re |
0:01 | listening to Catholic vs. atheist let’s |
0:08 | start by just having you introduce |
0:09 | yourself a little bit your philosophical |
0:11 | journey up until this point how you got |
0:13 | where you are what you believe in why |
0:14 | you believe it I’m an atheist and I have |
0:16 | been for most of my life since I began |
0:20 | to think consciously for myself I was |
0:23 | raised in a Christian household but I |
0:24 | realized as a teenager that or even |
0:28 | earlier that Christianity was not for me |
0:29 | and by the time I was in my early 20s I |
0:33 | was consciously calling myself an |
0:34 | atheist but I was nae this since before |
0:37 | that but I didn’t know what it was |
0:38 | called for the folks that might not know |
0:40 | you already by name in Montreal or |
0:43 | elsewhere what is the group that you |
0:45 | represent the group is atheists |
0:47 | freethinkers or liberal apostle at a in |
0:50 | French my name is David R and I’m the |
0:52 | president of the Association we’ve |
0:54 | existed since about 2010-2011 and our |
0:58 | website is a theology CA or at the ology |
1:03 | panacea our focus is to defend the |
1:09 | rights of atheists defend atheists |
1:12 | against defamation to throw the rights |
1:14 | of religious non-believers such as |
1:17 | ourselves to prote secularism as one |
1:21 | aspect of that and to promote |
1:24 | philosophical materialism you personally |
1:27 | and or your group would deny |
1:29 | supernaturalism anything supernatural is |
1:32 | that yes we deny the we deny the |
1:34 | existence of the supernatural although |
1:36 | it’s a little more subtle than that if |
1:38 | supernatural phenomena exist and they |
1:42 | can be detected in any way whatsoever if |
1:44 | they can be observed no matter how |
1:46 | indirectly or matter how poorly if they |
1:49 | can be detected then they’re part of the |
1:51 | natural world and they’re not |
1:52 | supernatural anymore and they they’re |
1:54 | just part of this world and we can |
1:57 | examine them and study them and and |
1:59 | that’s part of the natural world and so |
2:02 | and if they cannot be detected in any |
2:04 | way then it’s as if they didn’t exist |
2:07 | and they may as well not exist so either |
2:09 | there are supernatural phenomena which |
2:11 | are badly named and they’re just part of |
2:12 | the natural world we don’t know |
2:13 | well or they don’t exist |
2:16 | you mentioned something about the |
2:18 | defense of the atheist or the defense of |
2:20 | the non believer in our society it seems |
2:23 | to me that you’re not in a position to |
2:25 | need that oh yes we are could you |
2:28 | explain a little bit about that well |
2:29 | because things are not too bad you know |
2:33 | here in a country like Canada but the |
2:36 | attitudes toward atheism atheists are |
2:38 | very negative throughout the world and |
2:40 | atheists are often subject to direct |
2:43 | persecution for example in in Saudi |
2:47 | Arabia is an extreme example they |
2:49 | classify atheism as a form of terrorism |
2:51 | which is absolutely ridiculous basically |
2:53 | atheism is illegal in many other Muslim |
2:57 | countries as well the Saudi Arabia |
2:59 | apostasy is a crime it’s criminalized |
3:03 | and maybe in some countries punished by |
3:05 | death and apostasy means leaving a |
3:07 | religion and what they what they mean is |
3:09 | leaving Islam and so to leave Islam to |
3:12 | become a Christian or to become an |
3:14 | atheist or anything else is a crime |
3:16 | which may even be punished by death |
3:18 | that’s extremely severe even in the |
3:20 | United States the idea being an atheist |
3:23 | is considered very bad it’s worse than |
3:26 | being gay being gay is more acceptable |
3:28 | now than being an atheist a person who |
3:30 | is openly atheist could probably never |
3:32 | get elected in the United States one of |
3:34 | the ways in which apparently some people |
3:36 | in the Democratic Party wanted to |
3:38 | slander Sanders was to call him an |
3:41 | atheist which turns out he isn’t but |
3:44 | that was a that’s a form of slander |
3:46 | because atheists are so badly looked at |
3:49 | as as having no morality it’s an old |
3:51 | prejudice which has been around ever |
3:53 | since Plato or longer called a Thea |
3:56 | phobia and that’s a major focus of our |
3:59 | aboot you mentioned Saudi Arabia as an |
4:01 | extreme example but it brought to mind |
4:04 | martyrdom are there martyrs of the |
4:06 | Atheist movement well martyr I don’t |
4:09 | like the word martyr because there are |
4:11 | atheists who have been killed for being |
4:13 | atheists in Bangladesh and in Pakistan |
4:18 | especially Bangladesh recently very |
4:20 | well-known high-profile cases I can’t |
4:23 | recall the names of the victims right |
4:24 | now but there’s been several in recent |
4:26 | months and years and they have been |
4:29 | murdered by is extreme radical Islamist |
4:33 | groups because they published a blog |
4:36 | which defended secularism more which |
4:38 | criticized Islam or which criticized |
4:40 | religion and so to be an explicit |
4:44 | non-believer an atheist or secular and |
4:46 | to talk about it openly can be very |
4:49 | dangerous in some countries now in my |
4:52 | religion Catholicism if you explicitly |
4:56 | die for your faith and it’s your faith |
4:57 | you’re dying for you are a saint you go |
4:59 | straight to heaven what is the case well |
5:01 | the best case scenario for an atheist an |
5:03 | atheist that atheism is not a faith |
5:06 | there is no faith it’s simply a |
5:09 | rejection of fears and and by extension |
5:15 | supernaturalism in general theism being |
5:17 | the most important supernatural belief |
5:19 | the belief in a an all-powerful God as a |
5:21 | supernatural entity and so it’s not a |
5:24 | question of faith it’s a matter of |
5:25 | saying we don’t buy your faith in a |
5:29 | Creator God you do not share your belief |
5:31 | and death is the end of life there is no |
5:35 | afterlife where that’s why this life is |
5:38 | so important because the only one we |
5:40 | have and that’s why it is so important |
5:41 | to live it to the best you know as as |
5:43 | best we can that’s why it’s important to |
5:46 | warp drive for justice in this life |
5:47 | because there’s nobody’s going to get |
5:48 | punished in the afterlife or get |
5:50 | rewarded in the app tonight do you |
5:51 | believe that justice is achieved in the |
5:55 | overall balance no I think that Justin’s |
5:58 | vestas is very often not achieved and |
6:00 | it’s up to us to do it justice will |
6:02 | never be achieved if we human beings |
6:03 | don’t work for it that’s the only way |
6:06 | justice gets done the scales of justice |
6:08 | they’re supposed to be impartial but if |
6:11 | the bad guys are getting away with stuff |
6:13 | and the good guys are suffering then I |
6:15 | would say the scales have been tipped |
6:17 | are the scales tipped a little bit a lot |
6:19 | what is your I think I can’t put a |
6:21 | number on it but the scales are being |
6:22 | tipped a lot there’s a whole lot of |
6:24 | injustice standards of living are rising |
6:27 | globally so am led to understand from |
6:30 | the statistics that so there is good |
6:31 | news nevertheless there is there are |
6:34 | massive inequalities and there are |
6:36 | people who don’t have adequate water |
6:39 | there were adequate food there are |
6:41 | a women who do not are not able to |
6:44 | control their own reproduction and and |
6:46 | so they and their families are condemned |
6:48 | to poverty by restrictions on their |
6:50 | sexuality and the reproduction and that |
6:52 | is a gross injustice it seems that you |
6:55 | have a picture of reality such that |
6:58 | justice is an ideal that hasn’t been |
7:01 | achieved and if we all could get |
7:03 | together and work towards it maybe we |
7:05 | could help tip the balance but |
7:07 | ultimately the record is marred |
7:09 | throughout history such that will never |
7:11 | have a perfect record of justice but we |
7:13 | could just fix it a little bit over time |
7:15 | and perhaps forget about the bad old i’m |
7:17 | not i’m not working for perfection i’m |
7:20 | working for improvement ok the concept |
7:22 | of perfection is probably a religious |
7:24 | concept anyway there’s no such thing as |
7:26 | perfection we want to improve things and |
7:28 | that we certainly can do when you |
7:30 | improve are you moving towards the good |
7:32 | and the perfect and the just we’re |
7:34 | moving towards towards justice for the |
7:36 | good yes ok but not toward the perfect |
7:38 | as I say I don’t really think because we |
7:41 | would have to agree absolutely wondrous |
7:43 | on what is what is the perfect situation |
7:45 | for perfection to exist there’s there’ll |
7:47 | always be lots of disagreement about |
7:49 | what direction we should be working in |
7:50 | but we can most humans can agree that we |
7:53 | would like to get rid of hunger disease |
7:55 | or war you know we can agree on a lot of |
7:59 | things and work toward those things the |
8:02 | notion of good better best that seems |
8:05 | valid to a scientific to you well that’s |
8:09 | good better yeah it’s just if we improve |
8:11 | from good to better and better to best |
8:13 | that seems like a logical progression |
8:16 | yes it’s not offensive to you to move |
8:19 | from better to best offensive no it’s |
8:22 | just that I think that these definitions |
8:24 | are very abstract there they’re abstract |
8:28 | in there I don’t know if they’re well |
8:30 | defined I mean the only thing we can |
8:33 | work for is the better ok ok I mean the |
8:37 | best is I don’t know what your best |
8:39 | you’re a bit hesitant to embrace the |
8:41 | notion that there is a best well I in |
8:44 | absolute what I what I will not embrace |
8:46 | is the concept of perfection because I |
8:49 | don’t think such a thing as possible or |
8:52 | I don’t think it can even be defined |
8:54 | pragmatically is it is |
8:55 | useful to strive for this perfection it |
8:58 | is pragmatic to strive towards and |
8:59 | betterment yes it’s making things better |
9:01 | you don’t aim high you’re never going to |
9:03 | even yes mediocrity it’s probably a good |
9:06 | strategy when you talk about justice |
9:08 | when you talk about achieving justice is |
9:10 | there an eternal objective standard by |
9:13 | which you’re judging justice no like I |
9:16 | said I don’t I don’t think there’s |
9:17 | perfection but I know that one thing we |
9:19 | can do is to completely neutralize the |
9:22 | power of the Catholic Church |
9:24 | internationally that would be an |
9:25 | excellent thing because the Catholic |
9:27 | Church is a motor of poverty and misery |
9:29 | throughout the planet it doesn’t |
9:32 | necessarily do it deliberately and |
9:33 | explicitly but it denies women control |
9:36 | over their own bodies by restricting |
9:37 | contraception and family planning and |
9:40 | abortion and all the various tools that |
9:42 | that people need and it’s specifically |
9:44 | women need so that they can plan their |
9:47 | lives and live better and by not |
9:49 | allowing them to do that they’re |
9:51 | condemned to be at the whim of their |
9:54 | body they get pregnant or they don’t |
9:57 | they have five children instead of they |
9:59 | only wanted to or whatever and the |
10:01 | situation condemns women in particular |
10:05 | and societies in general to poverty |
10:08 | creates a whole lot of misery and so one |
10:10 | thing we can do to make the world a |
10:11 | better place is to kill the power of the |
10:14 | Vatican to stop the Vatican to stop the |
10:16 | Catholic Church from preventing women to |
10:18 | control their own reproduction I want to |
10:20 | present you with the two enemies of |
10:22 | atheism that you mentioned Islam and the |
10:24 | Catholic Church which one do you fear |
10:26 | most of which one do you hate more Islam |
10:29 | and Catholicism being one very large |
10:33 | current in Christianity are both very |
10:37 | negative they’re very harmful to |
10:40 | humanity in different ways it turns out |
10:43 | that Islam is currently on a bit of a |
10:45 | roll and it’s extremely dangerous |
10:47 | because of the radical terrorist aspect |
10:51 | of Islam Islamic fundamentalism but |
10:54 | there was a time when Christianity was |
10:57 | worse than Islam and it’s Christianity |
11:00 | remains of a force a very very harmful |
11:05 | force worldwide as well what can you see |
11:08 | that I |
11:09 | can’t see about how the church’s harming |
11:11 | me as a man a white privilege Western |
11:13 | man or am I not in a position to be hurt |
11:16 | by the Catholic Church your harmed a lot |
11:18 | less than other people just be and so am |
11:21 | i am harmed a lot less than a lot of |
11:22 | people simple by virtue of living in a |
11:25 | relatively well-to-do country where we |
11:28 | have certain basic freedoms that I mean |
11:31 | it’s not perfect but as a whole lot |
11:32 | better than to some other countries |
11:34 | being a man it things like that to the |
11:36 | harm is highly mitigated for us but it |
11:39 | still exists I think everyone is harmed |
11:43 | when people are denied basic rights will |
11:47 | you be willing to hazard a guess as to |
11:50 | how I’m suffering in the church I have |
11:52 | no idea I can’t talk about you |
11:54 | personally know well I would say that |
11:56 | Roman Catholicism distorts the relations |
12:00 | between the genders women by virtue of |
12:03 | the reproductive capabilities are more |
12:06 | directly harmed but that harms everyone |
12:09 | it means that people in general cannot |
12:12 | plan their reproduction it impacts women |
12:15 | directly but in it impacts men |
12:18 | indirectly man who are in relationships |
12:20 | with women or you know men who want to |
12:24 | be Father’s or don’t want to be father |
12:26 | is it the church’s attitude towards |
12:29 | sexuality in general towards |
12:30 | homosexuality is very damaging basically |
12:32 | for the Catholic Church homosexuality is |
12:35 | okay as long as you’re a member of the |
12:37 | clergy and you’re sufficiently |
12:38 | hypocritical but if you are honest about |
12:41 | it and open about it it’s a sin or |
12:43 | there’s something wrong with it and it’s |
12:45 | it basically the Catholic Church is an |
12:48 | engine for hypocrisy in the field of |
12:51 | sexuality in general and homosexuality |
12:52 | in particular and the trouble is it says |
12:55 | this with the pretense of divine |
12:57 | authority a priest who happens to to |
13:02 | abuse someone sexually or even abuse |
13:06 | them in some other way it’s a little |
13:09 | different from just an ordinary human |
13:11 | being who abuses another person because |
13:12 | that priests is imbued according to the |
13:16 | Catholic Church with divine authority |
13:17 | and that means that that gives that |
13:20 | person a great deal of power which means |
13:22 | a great |
13:23 | you love a potential for abuse the |
13:25 | corruption of the best is the worst well |
13:27 | I wouldn’t say they’re the best but you |
13:31 | let their corruption can be the |
13:33 | corruption of those who have who are |
13:35 | reputed to be of the best who have the |
13:38 | authority of as if they were the best |
13:40 | their corruption yes can be very helpful |
13:42 | which form of Christianity were you |
13:44 | raised with I was raised in a Protestant |
13:47 | church a very liberal Protestant church |
13:48 | d know the name of the denominations oh |
13:51 | yeah the United Church of Canada it’s |
13:52 | the most important Protestant |
13:54 | denomination in in Canada that’s the |
13:56 | church I was baptized in okay as a child |
13:58 | okay and it so it’s very you know it’s |
14:01 | very open minded compared to two |
14:03 | probably the majority of Christian |
14:05 | churches but I think it’s naive to |
14:08 | credit them or give them too much credit |
14:10 | for what they’ve done they still hang on |
14:13 | to the idea of morality being situated |
14:18 | to create Creator God they’re a big |
14:22 | proponent of multiculturalism which his |
14:28 | is become very damaging in Canada |
14:30 | because it’s used as a as a sort of as a |
14:33 | vehicle to oppose secularism and I mean |
14:37 | by multiculturalism it used to mean |
14:39 | cultural diversity it doesn’t mean that |
14:40 | anymore and now it means more like |
14:42 | cultural relativism means that people’s |
14:44 | attachment to their ethno-religious |
14:47 | community is more important than their |
14:48 | citizenship and that’s what’s that’s |
14:49 | what’s harmful for example when a |
14:51 | previous Quebec government tried to |
14:53 | implement secularism here they’re |
14:55 | accused of being racist and intolerant |
14:58 | and xenophobic all of which is nonsense |
15:00 | but and this is all based on the |
15:03 | ideology of multiculturalism if you |
15:05 | don’t like it to erase this whereas in |
15:07 | fact I think that multiculturalism is |
15:09 | like a soft form of racism but anyway |
15:11 | the United Church of Canada is a strong |
15:12 | proponent of that it’s it’s it’s very |
15:15 | much I call it the religious left we all |
15:17 | know the religious right you nitrogen |
15:19 | Canada that’s the religious left do you |
15:21 | place the Catholic Church on the writer |
15:22 | in the center oh it’s more on the right |
15:24 | okay it’s it’s sort of in a classified |
15:26 | stuff it is the biggest Christian |
15:30 | organization on the planet I think yeah |
15:32 | it’s very right-wing but it’s also very |
15:36 | large and varied and the |
15:37 | there are left-wing Catholics and would |
15:40 | you include the Pope by the left-wing |
15:41 | path no I would consider him as a clever |
15:45 | marketer and someone not to be trusted I |
15:47 | think he’s very sort of fashionable |
15:49 | these days because he says a lot of nice |
15:52 | things but basically it’s the same old |
15:54 | same old he’s just a very good he’s a |
15:56 | really good propaganda it turns out the |
15:58 | pope is catholic yes yes how you say it |
16:01 | seems pretty catholic and if we go um I |
16:04 | don’t know the details but I believe he |
16:06 | has some pretty close associations with |
16:08 | the dictatorship in our in his native |
16:10 | argentina I need to research that |
16:12 | further but I do know that he was |
16:15 | involved in administration of a Catholic |
16:16 | University in Argentina and the |
16:18 | Declaration of Principles of that |
16:20 | university and there were there were |
16:21 | three basic principles and I forgotten |
16:23 | what two of them were but the first one |
16:25 | of them and the first was the fight |
16:27 | against atheism and I don’t think he’s |
16:30 | changed his opinion on that at all |
16:32 | basically the idea is that atheism is |
16:35 | bad because atheism atheists have no |
16:38 | morals because morality belongs to the |
16:41 | Catholic Church we we own it that’s what |
16:43 | the Catholic Church says we own morality |
16:44 | and that is nonsense what you’re saying |
16:46 | makes me think immediately of |
16:49 | Freemasonry because Freemasonry seems to |
16:51 | have your same objective in mind which |
16:53 | is the eradication of religion and the |
16:55 | elevation of reason I wouldn’t say the |
16:58 | eradication because i would say remove |
17:01 | its power and then it it will fade into |
17:04 | insignificance but removing its power is |
17:06 | a big job I’m not familiar with the |
17:09 | Masons I’ve heard of them i think i was |
17:12 | actually accused of being one because i |
17:14 | was involved in the fight for secularism |
17:15 | and and sort of the Masons are sort of |
17:18 | like the Jews of secularism like you’re |
17:21 | the Jews of anti-catholicism if somebody |
17:25 | criticizes the Catholic Church so no |
17:26 | goddamn freemason and so I got accused |
17:29 | of one of her boots what’s a freemason |
17:30 | but I believe the Freemasons are there’s |
17:33 | a large variety there’s a whole gamut of |
17:36 | them and some of them are religious and |
17:39 | some are not and some are more |
17:42 | progressive than others some are more |
17:43 | anti-catholic than others but there is a |
17:46 | very old organization or a very old |
17:47 | movement with many organizations what I |
17:50 | would say is that I’ve met vegetarians |
17:52 | who eat meat but that doesn’t change the |
17:53 | definition of vegetarianism Freemasonry |
17:55 | has a doctrine your movement and has a |
17:59 | clear agenda and it seems to me that you |
18:01 | should be working together because |
18:03 | you’re you’re very United in your gold a |
18:05 | secular world with reason as its well |
18:09 | the most the most secular non-religious |
18:12 | Freemasons have apparently a political |
18:16 | position which is compatible with ours |
18:18 | to my understanding but I don’t that the |
18:21 | older such an organization exists in |
18:23 | Quebec of oh yeah this is that there’s a |
18:24 | freemason lodge right by a church that I |
18:27 | go to I consider them sort of very |
18:30 | old-fashioned like sort of old boys club |
18:33 | almost medieval that like they’re like |
18:36 | they’re among the original critics of |
18:37 | Christianity which I think gives to |
18:40 | their great credit there’s a lot of rich |
18:42 | pseudo religious ritual apparently and |
18:46 | also then because they’ve been around |
18:48 | for so long they it’s a movement that |
18:51 | started at a time when it was extremely |
18:53 | dangerous to criticize the Catholic |
18:55 | Church and so they had to be very subtle |
18:57 | and careful and and I think that’s part |
18:59 | of their tradition is that they’re not |
19:01 | quite open enough in their criticism now |
19:03 | what do you think of another group that |
19:04 | I think is very similar and that’s the |
19:06 | Satanist I’m not familiar with Satan |
19:08 | this either very similar goals reason |
19:11 | Liberty from religion what yes I mean |
19:14 | religion I considered to be at best |
19:17 | harmless but generally harmful and often |
19:20 | extremely harmful and we have examples |
19:22 | that today but the Satanists I’m not |
19:25 | familiar with they have a taboo to be |
19:28 | associated with someone with that well |
19:30 | not me you know no I do have one sort of |
19:32 | a reservation Satan is it’s a myth it’s |
19:36 | a supernatural mythological character |
19:38 | and I can understand if they’re using it |
19:40 | in a strictly metaphorical boy it means |
19:42 | and that’s fine but that’s something I |
19:44 | need to clarify the atheistic Satanists |
19:46 | are the theistic Satanist also there are |
19:49 | always like the Freemasons there’s |
19:50 | something okay well then she I don’t |
19:52 | know enough about it they seem like |
19:53 | resources that you have not yet tapped |
19:55 | but maybe you’re busy enough with the |
19:57 | regular Joe Blow atheist well I mean in |
20:00 | addition to atheists there are humanists |
20:04 | who |
20:04 | have very similar goals to us there are |
20:06 | people who call themselves secular but |
20:09 | they don’t necessarily call themselves |
20:10 | atheists and they have goals very |
20:11 | similar to ours and you know there are |
20:14 | people who call themselves agnostic and |
20:16 | you know we reject that term but you |
20:18 | know often they have similar goals |
20:19 | sometimes not but there’s a whole gamut |
20:21 | of people with whom we share some values |
20:23 | do you know any closet atheists that go |
20:26 | to Catholic Church I don’t personally |
20:28 | but I’m sure there are he’s probably a |
20:30 | lot of it is probably have a lot of |
20:31 | closet atheists in the priesthood for |
20:33 | that matter yeah I mean I mean those who |
20:36 | are who have studied the have studied |
20:39 | the theology long enough who come to the |
20:42 | conclusion that it’s a house of cards my |
20:45 | journey from atheism in to Catholicism |
20:49 | was via western philosophy how do you |
20:52 | view me psychologically as someone |
20:55 | that’s gone off the rails how would you |
20:57 | describe my I don’t know I don’t know |
20:59 | you personally I don’t know how you |
21:01 | could get from Satanism to Catholicism |
21:03 | but at least you’ve informed me that |
21:05 | your Satanism was atheistic okay so I |
21:07 | know that now my leap was a very short |
21:11 | jump from me as God to God has got a |
21:14 | very short leap you as God yeah this is |
21:17 | logical outcome of atheism if you’re |
21:19 | going to ask yourself Who am I how did I |
21:22 | get here what is the source of my life |
21:24 | there only two answers I am the source |
21:26 | of existence or God is no no that’s not |
21:29 | that’s not correct atheism does not |
21:31 | posit that the individual is God you am |
21:34 | NOT God you would lose membership for |
21:36 | sure if you explicitly said that but |
21:38 | that is the lodge out in very much you |
21:41 | do realize that there’s a gnostic |
21:42 | new-age mole right that people are |
21:46 | expressly coming out of the closet |
21:48 | saying i am god you do understand oprah |
21:50 | winfrey and people like that she said |
21:51 | are saying that yeah I find the whole |
21:53 | concept kind of silly anyway why there |
21:57 | is no God and so we don’t have to be one |
22:00 | the point I know where we came from we |
22:03 | came from evolution of other species |
22:05 | that happened over billions of years and |
22:08 | you know that’s where we came from do |
22:10 | you believe in the Big Bang I don’t |
22:12 | believe in anything in the sense of |
22:16 | being attached to that as |
22:18 | belief if if the scientific evidence |
22:21 | points to that okay then show me the |
22:23 | evidence would you be opposed to the |
22:25 | idea that the universe has no beginning |
22:27 | that i think is plausible yes i mean |
22:30 | there could of if if there was a big |
22:32 | bang at the beginning then maybe there |
22:34 | was something before the Big Bang and |
22:35 | though so that wasn’t really the |
22:36 | beginning and you know maybe there’s a a |
22:38 | bang and is in a shrink and a bang in a |
22:41 | shrinking every 30 gazillion years you |
22:43 | know would it be safe to say that you |
22:45 | prefer a universe that’s infinite in |
22:47 | both directions past and future would |
22:49 | you prefer that philosophically because |
22:51 | then you don’t need to deal with that |
22:53 | troublesome beginning going from nothing |
22:56 | to something an eternal universe is |
22:59 | simpler than one that was created so I |
23:03 | would have some preference for that but |
23:05 | it’s only a time you don’t you don’t see |
23:07 | the logical necessity of a first cause |
23:09 | in the universe where cause and effect |
23:11 | determines every no I don’t accept the |
23:12 | idea that you go back and back and you |
23:14 | have to stop and there oh and then |
23:15 | that’s God do you believe in cause and |
23:18 | effect of course there’s cause and |
23:19 | effect but there’s also random |
23:21 | fluctuation and randomness do those |
23:24 | random fluctuations obey the laws of |
23:26 | nature the laws of nature are not |
23:28 | written down in some big book that we |
23:31 | discover them we see patterns and we |
23:33 | recognize them and and we predict events |
23:35 | based on those laws which we make up |
23:38 | from the data we’ve observed and if our |
23:40 | predictions turn out to be true then |
23:42 | that violates the law is probably being |
23:44 | a good one but it’s there’s nothing |
23:45 | sacred about them do you believe that |
23:47 | randomness is truly random and uncaused |
23:50 | do you believe that randomness is |
23:53 | uncaused it is not part of the cause and |
23:55 | effect chain I could ask you I could ask |
0:03 | you another way are you a determinist or |
0:04 | do you believe in free will oh that’s a |
0:08 | huge question and my mind is not made up |
0:11 | from my limited knowledge of philosophy |
0:14 | is an extremely difficult question that |
0:17 | philosophers have been bending their |
0:18 | brains around for millennia and still |
0:21 | not solved would you prefer to have free |
0:23 | will real free will as opposed to just |
0:25 | the illusion of freedom do you |
0:28 | experience the illusion of free will at |
0:29 | least oh yeah I experience the illusion |
0:32 | but as you say it may be an illusion it |
0:34 | may be a reality it may be a reality as |
0:36 | well would that damage your determinism |
0:39 | with cause and effect in science I would |
0:40 | have to see how they fit together I mean |
0:42 | the reality may be some combination of |
0:45 | determinism and randomness and with some |
0:47 | portion of free will mixed with a |
0:49 | certain degree of determinism is free |
0:51 | will by definition supernatural no free |
0:55 | will is a scientific notion in the |
0:57 | laboratory can we test free will can we |
0:59 | find free will or you’d have to define |
1:01 | it first before you can test for it I |
1:03 | mean what are you going to test a human |
1:06 | being or some animal and how do you |
1:08 | define free will an action where no |
1:13 | cause can be found or in principle even |
1:17 | though in the lab it’s difficult there |
1:18 | are many things in the lab that are |
1:19 | difficult but in principle do you think |
1:21 | that free will follows cause and effect |
1:24 | is free will bound by cause and effect |
1:29 | clearly if we have free will it’s not |
1:31 | infinite you can’t do everything some |
1:33 | things are possible where where where we |
1:35 | are bound by certain constraints I can’t |
1:37 | fly no matter how much free will I have |
1:39 | if you watch water tumbling over a |
1:42 | waterfall you would agree that its |
1:45 | movements are all bound by the laws of |
1:46 | nature and by cause and effect no its |
1:49 | general movements but there’s a there’s |
1:52 | probably a great deal of random motion |
25:55:00 | within the water at a microscopic |
25:57:00 | submicroscopic scale I mean molecules |
26:00:00 | moving around randomly because of their |
26:03:00 | other particular temperature that’s |
26:04:00 | thermodynamics if I flip a coin is the |
26:07:00 | outcome determined by the laws of nature |
26:10:00 | and cause and effect well if you could |
26:14:00 | describe and quantify all the variables |
26:17:00 | maybe but there’s a help a lot of |
26:20:00 | variables what if it’s a little little |
26:22:00 | current air current they didn’t take |
26:24:00 | account of is you know if we in a vacuum |
26:26:00 | we let a coin fall if it’s in a vacuum |
26:29:00 | that simplifies things greatly it |
26:31:00 | removes a lot of variables and you know |
26:35:00 | it’s completely deterministic unless it |
26:37:00 | happens to land on its edge and the edge |
26:39:00 | is infinitely thin and I don’t know what |
26:41:00 | are you and the |
26:43:00 | this is when you decide to have |
26:44:00 | chocolate versus vanilla ice cream is |
26:46:00 | that decision deterministic in the same |
26:49:00 | way or is there a different process I |
26:50:00 | don’t know he’s the complexity |
26:52:00 | preventing you from having an opinion |
26:53:00 | about free will just the complexity |
26:56:00 | that’s probably it yes because I’m I’m |
26:59:00 | not a professional philosopher and I |
27:01:00 | think I would have to be one to fully |
27:02:00 | understand these concepts of free will |
27:04:00 | in principle would it change your a |
27:07:00 | theistic worldview if you realize that |
27:09:00 | free will is real and that it’s |
27:12:00 | supernatural well first of all a free |
27:15:00 | will were real and on delusion I don’t |
27:18:00 | think that would change anything but |
27:20:00 | your statement that that it could be |
27:23:00 | supernatural I’d find that a meaningless |
27:25:00 | statement okay what about your mind if |
27:29:00 | you came to understand that your mind is |
27:31:00 | not just activity in your brain it’s not |
27:33:00 | an epiphenomenon what your mind itself |
27:36:00 | is supernatural with that change your |
27:38:00 | atheistic worldview the mind is simply |
27:41:00 | the result of brain activity if a |
27:44:00 | criminal commits a criminal act and the |
27:47:00 | judge sentenced him to prison do you |
27:49:00 | think that the deterministic scientific |
27:51:00 | nature of his act removes guilt from him |
27:54:00 | if there’s no free will if there is no |
27:59:00 | free will okay but that’s a big if I |
28:03:00 | think it’s pretty clear that punishment |
28:05:00 | doesn’t work very well anyway and so I |
28:08:00 | expect an evolution of criminal law in |
28:11:00 | the future but I can’t say I can’t give |
28:15:00 | any details in principle you believe |
28:18:00 | that we are moral agents we have |
28:21:00 | morality |
28:24:00 | well morality is simply intelligent |
28:28:00 | self-interest who’s a better example of |
28:30:00 | a moral person the one who lives in |
28:32:00 | reality or the one that lives in a |
28:35:00 | delusion I would say the one who lives |
28:37:00 | in reality would you agree would you be |
28:40:00 | willing to agree in principle that if |
28:42:00 | God created you that you owe him worship |
28:46:00 | and love and obedience in principle not |
28:49:00 | necessarily and to say that God exists |
28:53:00 | is it is a humongous leap of faith to |
28:56:00 | begin with but then even if we accept |
28:59:00 | that and take that leap of faith why the |
29:03:00 | hell with that entity need to be |
29:05:00 | worshipped or adulate it God doesn’t |
29:09:00 | need anything but let me let me ask you |
29:11:00 | a different way if you receive love is |
29:14:00 | it natural for you to reciprocate that |
29:16:00 | love not necessarily it may be undesired |
29:21:00 | love his loves about stalking our child |
29:28:00 | abuse her you know love is not always a |
29:32:00 | good thing and hate is not always a bad |
29:33:00 | thing is that all depends on context if |
29:36:00 | we define love as the church does that |
29:38:00 | love is the willing of the good of the |
29:40:00 | other would you say that that’s always |
29:42:00 | good the willing of the good of the |
29:46:00 | other it’s I where you well if it’s |
29:51:00 | limited to simply a wish which app does |
29:53:00 | nothing then it’s harmless it’s |
29:55:00 | irrelevant but if it if it leads to |
29:57:00 | action then that action may have |
30:00:00 | consequences and it may be misguided if |
30:04:00 | somebody does something for me without |
30:06:00 | me asking for it they could do something |
30:08:00 | I don’t like and I could interpret that |
30:11:00 | as hostility and not love did you |
30:15:00 | consent to every loving gesture your |
30:18:00 | mother made towards you when you were an |
30:19:00 | infant no but that doesn’t mean I |
30:22:00 | children are unable to consent to |
30:25:00 | everything and even adults and we have |
30:27:00 | our limitations in principle if there is |
30:30:00 | an all-loving God who doesn’t need |
30:32:00 | anything but just gratuitously created |
30:36:00 | you and loves you |
30:37:00 | and knows that what’s best for you is to |
30:41:00 | go to him because he’s the source of |
30:42:00 | everything good and only with him can |
30:44:00 | you be happy would you be willing and |
30:46:00 | principle to go to god I’m not going to |
30:49:00 | answer that question because it starts |
30:51:00 | with a whole lot of ifs each one of |
30:56:00 | which is a humongous assumption if you |
31:00:00 | had a distant relative that you were |
31:03:00 | unaware of that has lots of money and |
31:05:00 | that is eager to get in touch with you |
31:08:00 | to help you with whatever projects you |
31:09:00 | have yes would you be willing in |
31:12:00 | principle to meet with that person share |
31:15:00 | have you heard of Pascal’s wager yes |
31:18:00 | what do you think of Pascal’s wager I |
31:20:00 | think it’s a pretty lame excuse to |
31:24:00 | believe in God I think it’s pretty lame |
31:26:00 | if you believe in God and God exists you |
31:28:00 | win if you believe in God and God |
31:30:00 | doesn’t exist you lose nothing and if |
31:33:00 | you don’t believe in God but he or she |
31:35:00 | or it exists then you lose big time but |
31:38:00 | it’s not true i mean if if you believe |
31:41:00 | in God and God does not exist and if you |
31:46:00 | spend your entire lifetime basing your |
31:49:00 | actions on a belief in God which causes |
31:52:00 | to do you to do a whole bunch of things |
31:54:00 | you wouldn’t have done you may end up |
31:56:00 | wasting your life I mean you could be |
31:58:00 | doing other things more interesting if |
31:59:00 | you spend your entire lifetime trying to |
32:02:00 | please a fictional entity in ways which |
32:06:00 | do not please you’re either yourself or |
32:10:00 | other people then why not go through |
32:13:00 | life enjoying this short precious time |
32:17:00 | we have here instead of attempting to |
32:20:00 | please a fictional entity in the hope |
32:22:00 | that he she or it will somehow reward us |
32:25:00 | after we’re dead or I’m not sure I have |
32:29:00 | 11 interesting thought experiment for |
32:31:00 | you I think you find it interesting in |
32:33:00 | your atheistic worldview what’s |
32:36:00 | preventing someone if in principle they |
32:38:00 | could find a way to hide their sick and |
32:41:00 | malicious pleasure seeking which is at |
32:44:00 | the expense of helpless victims but he |
32:47:00 | covers it up to such an extent that no |
32:49:00 | one ever finds out of course the victim |
32:50:00 | is fine |
32:51:00 | they’re they’re not going to tell anyone |
32:52:00 | and he he gets extreme pleasure from |
32:55:00 | exerting this power and all the sexual |
32:57:00 | things he does and he lives life to the |
33:01:00 | fullest he has all the things that all |
33:04:00 | of us want in terms of money and |
33:05:00 | pleasure and dies peacefully in his |
33:09:00 | sleep in your atheistic worldview what’s |
33:13:00 | wrong with the choices that that man |
33:14:00 | made what’s wrong with the choices yeah |
33:17:00 | because he maximized his pleasure those |
33:20:00 | types of others and no one ever |
33:21:00 | suspected him he was treated as a pillar |
33:23:00 | of the community the what’s wrong is |
33:25:00 | that we human beings are social animals |
33:29:00 | we live in societies and no person is an |
33:31:00 | island but he was the talk of the town |
33:33:00 | he everyone thought he was a saint well |
33:36:00 | he was extremely lucky that’s all okay I |
33:38:00 | mean people were harmed by this person |
33:41:00 | at first I thought you were positing the |
33:43:00 | idea of an evil god but you were talking |
33:45:00 | about an evil human being okay but |
33:47:00 | that’s another interesting idea the |
33:49:00 | hypothesis about a idea of it of an evil |
33:50:00 | God pretends to be good and loving but |
33:52:00 | no okay you’re talking about an evil |
33:54:00 | person get that never gets found out |
33:56:00 | well I mean that that’s that there are |
33:58:00 | limitations to human justice you know we |
34:02:00 | don’t always detect injustice you know |
34:04:00 | there were imperfect we’re limited but |
34:06:00 | we nevertheless have laws and procedures |
34:10:00 | to enforce those laws and all of which |
34:13:00 | are highly imperfect but they’re better |
34:15:00 | than nothing and the idea is to is to |
34:19:00 | read out or prevent the most egregious |
34:22:00 | examples of harming other people do you |
34:25:00 | think that that person in principle |
34:27:00 | could exist even though he’s rare |
34:28:00 | because it’s a rare form of genius but |
34:30:00 | do you think that that sort of person |
34:32:00 | would be violating his own conscious |
34:35:00 | necessarily because there is like you’re |
34:38:00 | describing a psychopath they have such |
34:39:00 | people do exist and there are people who |
34:42:00 | are devoid of the sort of voice of |
34:47:00 | conscience the the psychological makeup |
34:49:00 | that most of us have the majority of us |
34:51:00 | have that that caused us to feel what |
34:54:00 | you might what I might call emotional |
34:56:00 | pain mmm that is guilt remorse things |
34:58:00 | like that that is a handicap for which |
35:03:00 | the person him |
35:04:00 | for herself does not apparently suffer |
35:08:00 | but other people do and but it’s still |
35:12:00 | suffering and we are social animals and |
35:14:00 | you know if you want to be absolutely |
35:16:00 | one hundred percent egotistical about |
35:18:00 | that one person okay they’re happy great |
35:21:00 | but you know no person is totally |
35:24:00 | isolated and you don’t you don’t think |
35:26:00 | he’s in an env Obel position really |
35:28:00 | objectively speaking no because this |
35:34:00 | person is apparently unable to connect |
35:35:00 | with other people emotionally it sounds |
35:38:00 | like the person is a psychopath and they |
35:39:00 | probably lose out a lot in the quality |
35:41:00 | of life for the same way like don’t they |
35:42:00 | don’t feel that guilt and remorse but |
35:44:00 | they probably don’t feel other feelings |
35:45:00 | that are more friendship love loyalty |
35:48:00 | the whole range of human emotions is |
35:50:00 | probably perverted or distorted or you |
35:53:00 | know in that person I don’t know but so |
35:55:00 | it it seems that you value these |
35:58:00 | intangible things Justice loyalty |
36:00:00 | friendship that doesn’t seem |
36:01:00 | inconsistent to you as my fist no these |
36:04:00 | are these there are plenty of intangible |
36:06:00 | things that are that we use to describe |
36:08:00 | behavior I mean loyalty is a form of |
36:10:00 | behavior it’s not it it’s not tangible |
36:12:00 | but we can recognize it can they be |
36:13:00 | reduced to a Darwinian mechanic survival |
36:17:00 | of the species sometimes yes that’s so |
36:20:00 | that Darwinian worldview is it a big |
36:22:00 | part of your world yes certainly of |
36:25:00 | course evolution is essential everything |
36:28:00 | evolves I mean and not just animals and |
36:32:00 | plants but you know the universe evolves |
36:35:00 | societies evolve Darwin’s worldview the |
36:42:00 | Darwinian world world view will be |
36:44:00 | interpreted with increasing subtlety and |
36:46:00 | got more nuanced he laid the foundation |
36:49:00 | what it was was crude from our point of |
36:52:00 | view but it was the essential beginning |
36:54:00 | he got they got their guts right and |
36:56:00 | we’re adding all the new ones as |
36:59:00 | research continues if there happened to |
37:02:00 | be any religious listeners what would |
37:04:00 | you say to them on a personal level we |
37:07:00 | all want to be good people is your |
37:10:00 | religion really necessary for you to do |
37:13:00 | that do you really need your religious |
37:15:00 | beliefs in order to be the good person |
37:17:00 | you want to be |
37:21:00 | if you like a world view if you think |
37:24:00 | it’s got some questions at the end I’ll |
37:27:00 | tell all you got to do is all you got to |
37:31:00 | do is |