Catholic vs. Atheist – 2016-07-30 – John

This is my first interview. John actually responded to a kijiji ad in which I was seeking non-Catholics to interview. It was a great way to start. He is a physics guy, too. Quite rational. He asked some good questions.


Please excuse any errors as these captions were automatically generated by YouTube.

0:00 Hi! I’m John and you’re listening to Catholic vs. Atheist.
0:08 Tell me a little bit about yourself, John, what you believe and why.
0:10 I don’t believe there is a God, so I’m an Atheist. And I believe this because of my
0:18 understanding of the universe, essentially. From what all I’ve learned
0:22 so far in my life, my reasonable guess is that God doesn’t exist–so in particular the
0:28 God of the Abrahamic religions: Judaism Islam and Christianity.
0:34 How do you exist? How do you explain your existence? Is there a first cause? How did you get here?
0:40 This is essentially the deepest question you could ask. The big bang model, as far
0:44 as I understand, is the best scientific description of the beginning of the
0:48 universe we have–or at least what we know is that 13.8 billion years ago the
0:53 universe was compact dense and hot. And if you ask me was there anything before
0:59 that I don’t know. Maybe. What caused it? I wouldn’t be able to say.
1:05 Do you have any philosophical aversion to an infinite universe where there was no
1:10 beginning?
1:11 Not particularly, and the reason being that there are so many things that are
1:15 counterintuitive in this world. Quantum Mechanics, for example, doesn’t make sense
1:19 the first time you learn it but you get used to it, you know, so maybe the universe is
1:23 infinite in the past and we just have to accept it. Would you be also comfortable
1:28 with a universe that extends into the future?
1:31 That’s actually much less controversial. As far as we understand
1:35 the universe will just grow old and old an old until we reach the heat death of
1:40 the universe where, like, everything will be dark and cold .
1:44 We’re talking about ten to a hundred years, so a long time in the future.
1:48 In this universe whether it has a beginning or, not we can say with certainty that
1:53 there was a time in the universe where there was not life, and then life
1:57 appeared, and at some point in the future life will come to an end, for whatever
2:01 scientific reason. Would you say that’s a safe thing to say?
2:03 Yes, I think that a fair assessment, yes. And if the universe doesn’t have an
2:07 end in time, but it’s actually infinite, then however big this window of life is
2:11 that I just described, it’s
2:13 approaching zero in terms of absolute percentage of time. If my understanding
2:19 of the universe is correct then yes, life will be a very, very short event in the
2:25 in the universe–in the whole lifetime of the universe. But the more important
2:30 aspect is morality
2:32 where’s the value, where’s the meaning in good versus evil?
2:37 Do they have any meaning for you as an atheist? And if you do have morality, is
2:42 it objective and eternal? Like 1+1=2, would you agree that that’s
2:46 an eternal truth
2:48 Actually, this is a construct. When you say 1+1=2 what you are
2:53 saying, actually, is that we made up a game, we made up the number one as a concept and
2:59 we defined 1+1 to be 2, actually. So it’s true but tautologically, because we
3:05 defined it to be true.
3:06 Do you think that we invented the number one? We invented the concept. The thing is,
3:10 there’s no substance that is 1. It’s immaterial.
3:14 Yes, it’s immaterial and it’s, actually, it’s a construct. For example even if you have
3:19 one Apple you can slice it in two, and then you get two, you know? So it’s all a matter
3:22 of subjectivity, the number. The way we apply the number 1 to the world is
3:27 subjective, but the concepts, the rules are clear.
3:30 Can you envision a time where society adopts different rules such that 1+1 is not 2?
3:36 Sure, you get you can make it. I mean, mathematicians work on this, like,
3:40 all the time. But of course, the thing is, now the correspondence to reality is
3:45 very little, of course. Now, why do we use mathematics? Because it’s quite effective
3:50 at describing the worl d. You could make a mathematical system where 1+1=3,
3:56 and actually you could probably do a bunch of stuff in it,
4:00 but you wouldn’t be able to apply it to the real world. There’s a consensus now with
4:04 mathematics that 1+1=2, but if the cashier subjectively wanted to decide
4:09 that for her 1+1=3…
4:11 [yeah well] and she gives you the wrong change, what is the authority by which you would
4:13 enforce–force her, essentially, to conform to an arbitrary set of mathematical rules?
4:18 Personally I won’t be able to enforce anything if she wants her mathematics
4:23 rule to be 1+1=3, she will just do that.
4:27 But, of course, she will not be able to stay a cashier because if she doesn’t give me
4:30 the right change I’m going to complain, because it’s not what society agreed on.
4:35 Do you believe in objective morality, there’s a right and a wrong? Morality, I
4:39 think does exist, quite obviously. But objective?
4:42 No. I don’t think so. In the far future, or in the far past, there were no humans. The
4:49 concept of morality didn’t even exist because there was no one to apply
4:53 morality to. You admit that humans are moral beings? More so than the apes?
4:59 For humans, we have a very complex society, so we need rules to ensure that things go
5:07 smoothly, and we can call these morals or morality. I think animals have some form
5:12 of primitive morality. For example, apes; they don’t just kill each other all the
5:17 time when they kill each other there’s some reason. They will help each other at
5:21 some times and then they will fight at some other times–a bit like humans.
5:25 What do you think of cultural relativism? It has weaknesses, but I would say that
5:30 you can only contrast morality, a set of moral guidelines, with another set of
5:36 moral guidelines. You cannot judge it from a vacuum, you have to do it from
5:40 another point of view. So for us
5:42 it’s completely obvious that this is completely immoral, but that’s because we
5:47 have a moral framework that we use. That can be learned and it can be unlearned?
5:51 Yeah.
5:53 morality is quite a fluid concept you can get very tricky situation in
5:57 morality like where it’s really unclear what you should do and if you do this if
6:02 it’s right or wrong
6:03 now you ask me is there any meaning i don’t think there is any intrinsic
6:09 meaning for us i don’t think it’s divinely set what we are and what we
6:14 should do and so on but i think is that everybody finds their own meaning and
6:20 their own lives for example for me I always imagine a universe where there
6:26 was no life at all
6:27 no subject life and more life at all but still rainbows and rain and mountains
6:35 and clouds and all these things and i always say to myself it would be a shame
6:39 to not be able to witness
6:40 the beauty of this world you know when you look at the telescope everything is
6:43 so wonderful so for me my my personal reason to live is to experience the
6:49 beauty of this world for me that’s the most relevant thing to do is to
6:52 appreciate the medium the universe that we live in is there something special
6:56 about our sophisticated brains that makes us better witnesses to the beauty
7:02 of creation and a monkey or cat i do think that we have a deeper
7:07 understanding of the universe than a cat and even the most intelligent ape I
7:12 think and I think this does help quite a lot in appreciating the beauty of the
7:18 universe we live in this universe with rainbows and the waterfalls and
7:24 community it wouldn’t be quite as satisfying if it were just cats and dogs
7:27 and monkeys witnessing that is there a hierarchy in the animal kingdom if you
7:33 try to tackle the bearer and try to put him down
7:36 you will die and you will lose quite dramatically you know so that there is
7:41 much more fit in certain areas
7:44 it so happens that the humans have intellectual capabilities that are I
7:47 think much beyond most animals so if we compare ourselves by intelligence then
7:53 yes I think we’re pretty much the most intelligent or the best in that category
7:57 but if I put you in water with sharks not going to work so well the Catholic
8:02 Church says we have free will and reason that the other animals don’t have to do
8:05 you agree with that do you believe in free will
8:07 I mean what does it mean free will it’s unclear if such a thing even exists to
8:13 begin with I don’t think there’s any thing uniquely different in humans but
8:19 it’s just that the characteristic that we have our intellectual capabilities
8:23 are just much more developed is a difference in degree not in kind with
8:27 you that’s correct
8:28 ok do you believe that everything is cause and effect there’s no wiggle room
8:32 if you throw a rock its behavior follows scientific laws
8:37 yes are you bound by the laws of nature
8:40 yes i think so i think so i think essentially everything by definition is
8:44 bound by the laws of nature is there the illusion of freedom or is there the
8:48 possibility of real freedom is there a difference between a perfect ill
8:53 in the free will or having free will no I think we do have a nearly perfect
8:59 illusion of free will so that essentially there’s no difference
9:03 between having free will or not having it for you what’s your position on free
9:08 will
9:09 my position is the Catholic position in the Catholic position is always both
9:13 take any deep philosophical issue where people get divided the Catholic Church’s
9:18 always embracing paradox paradox is different for contradictions yes it’s
9:23 the illusion of contradiction there is a very big difference between a paradox
9:27 and a genuine contradiction and i would say there’s a very big difference stream
9:30 illusion of free will and actual free will
9:32 how would you be able to distinguish the difference we can’t we’re
9:38 philosophically people minded God can that’s the whole point for something to
9:45 be somehow relevant it has to have some effect when you say that there is a
9:50 difference between having free will and having the illusion of free will but
9:54 that we cannot make the difference if you cannot distinguish between the two
9:58 there’s no way you could make a difference i want to go to the core
10:01 issue which will allow me a person of faith to embrace free will and will keep
10:06 you from embracing free will
10:08 the leap of faith the leap of faith that you take is not to the God of Abraham
10:13 Isaac and Jacob the leap of faith that you take is into realism naïve realism
10:18 where you just assume that the other exists that the world exists that all
10:24 those sense experiences correspond to some kind of reality that’s the leap of
10:28 faith that you take and I applaud you for that because we do live in reality
10:32 but I also questioned why you’re willing to take that leap of faith if you’re
10:36 scientifically minded because it’s not a scientific i agree visitors i would
10:40 argue it’s pragmatism and I could try in my head to make up a story about the
10:46 universe and I could try to deny the sensors that i have i could do that but
10:52 i will not be successful at essentially anything
10:56 its sheer obvious pneus that yet just have to
11:00 accept the world as it is i have icing all the way of doing it
11:05 it’s a pragmatic decision to live in reality as it is
11:09 yeah so for me it’s just tried mechanism to accept reality as it is as I perceive
11:14 that for the time being
11:16 ok because it’s just the sheer force of what I perceive it overwhelms me I have
11:22 to
11:22 so you think it’s unreasonable perhaps to just dismiss the mountains of sensory
11:27 data evidence all these things we can’t really prove scientifically we do know
11:33 that our brains do trick us sometimes so sometimes it is hard to know what is
11:39 actually there you have to accept at least some part of what you perceive to
11:45 be true to some degree there isn’t a lot that separate your world view from my
11:50 worldview we both choose to live in reality accept reality and work with
11:55 reality but the difference is that I choose to believe since i took the leap
11:59 of faith to God that my thirst for health and beauty and justice and
12:03 goodness and all those things will be fulfilled ultimate but you believe that
12:06 they were somehow given to you your purpose is linked to that of God
12:13 yeah and your meaning of life as well yeah God is everything is the source of
12:18 everything that’s good life and justice beauty and truth and all the things that
12:22 we seek and so there’s nothing that falls outside of God’s domain
12:27 nothing good we can participate more fully in life and we can move towards
12:32 life and we can orient ourselves in the direction of life or we can choose to do
12:37 otherwise this is what free will allows us to do God somehow give you more ality
12:41 do you believe in absolute morality this how is this absolute morality and
12:47 gun-related it’s all about nature God is not a creature God’s the Creator so
12:53 proud of his generous love he created everything that is ke himself is
12:57 uncreated he’s the first cause he’s done cause these the prime mover the unmoved
13:01 mover he’s the being whose essence is existence where were contingent so he
13:07 just is and he’s just all self-sufficient and happy and he doesn’t
13:10 need anything he created freely out of his generous love
13:13 creation university us- and he created as humans in His image meaning free will
13:21 and reason i have a human nature so morality is about corresponding to
13:26 reality corresponding to the reality of my human nature that God gave me in His
13:30 goodness and then its infinite wisdom the example i like to use is if you’re
13:34 in the woodshop and you’ve got a screw and you’ve got your tools you can select
13:37 whatever tool you want you can bang it with the band saw you can bang it with
13:41 the hammer God wants you to pick up the screwdriver and not only any screw over
13:45 the phillips number two that fits into that screw so it’s about correspondence
13:49 to reality it’s all about sanity and yes you can bang it in with a hammer and it
13:53 will work in certain extent is just not ideal
13:56 there’s a better way there’s a more efficient way and it’s his way not
14:01 because he’s a tyrant or bully but because he made it sold it FR work to
14:06 pose a moral dilemma
14:08 do you think there is always a right answer or wrong answer
14:13 not that we can necessarily know it don’t get all the look on you but if you
14:18 read the New Testament you’ll see the Jews trying to trick Jesus with
14:21 questions where there’s no winning answer and yet he finds a way so i think
14:25 there are bad questions just out of ignorance we can ask the wrong question
14:30 sometimes on the other extreme we could say that every moral dilemma has one
14:35 clear-cut answer involves mind imagine that there’s a train and there’s no
14:40 conductor and it’s going to hit treat people and you’re standing on a bridge
14:44 and down there’s a switch and there’s a guy next to you if you push the guy is
14:48 going to fall into switch and make the train deviates and mystery people now
14:53 the question is should you pushed a person or not would you know the answer
15:00 i would probably need to think about it but their principles that would guide my
15:03 decision one of the principles is the ends don’t justify the means
15:08 so you can do any evil so that good may come of that you just cannot that’s one
15:12 principle in the Catholic Church the question itself probably will involve
15:15 other principals and i would need to look at the question
15:18 mostly by i’m pretty sure i could come up with an opinion I wouldn’t
15:21 necessarily trust my opinion but I know for sure that there’s an answer to
15:26 something like that
15:27 I suppose that God does have perfect knowledge that the decision that he
15:32 takes the right one but you as a person you never have perfect knowledge so it’s
15:36 very hard to make the good decision because it depends on factors that you
15:40 cannot know for humans it’s impossible but for God nothing is impossible
15:45 so there’s this tightrope that we walked between knowing that we will fall and
15:49 will make mistakes and we’re imperfect and striving nonetheless to always live
15:54 by its 10 commandments and live by principles that the church gives us it
16:00 becomes a question of exercising your freedom and exercising your love
16:05 basically because having a list of rules and saying in this circumstance do this
16:09 and that circumstance do that that eliminates merit the whole point of life
16:14 is to show your love the way you show your love for God for neighbor is by
16:18 struggling with the complexities and being in a situation where you don’t
16:22 know what the rule is and how to apply that rule if it were simply a matter of
16:26 applying a list of rules we would essentially be back to where we started
16:31 as atheists with this mechanical scientific view this works this doesn’t
16:34 work well and I kind of disagree i mean even if we knew always what the right
16:41 thing would be to do there would be nothing forcing us to do it even if I
16:46 knew that pushing that person would be a good thing hypothetically there’s
16:50 nothing forcing me even if I know it and there’s nothing forcing me to do it yeah
16:54 there’s also nothing forcing me we both are naturally in our human nature
17:00 inclined toward the good reason you reach for the proper screwdriver is not
17:05 because there’s some sort of in position
17:08 it just makes sense it’s just common sense that if you’re going to achieve
17:12 your end whatever that end may be working with nature will get you there
17:17 and working against nature may not good work but it’s not the optimal i am a
17:23 free moral agent and I am going about my business trying to accomplish things and
17:29 trying to experience things
17:31 and if the grass is getting a bit long and I need to cut it i’m probably not
17:35 going to go there with the wet dishrag and start rubbing it just doesn’t work
17:39 you give really example where the answer is kind of obvious of course if you want
17:45 to cut your lawn you should be cool with a lot more for sure but you can always
17:49 make examples that are very subtle
17:53 what do you do if your girlfriend for example says always got these new jeans
17:57 is why whatever your end look then he has you know but do we agree that given
18:04 this circumstance if you were to say no it is a lie
18:09 no it’s not like it’s called discretion
18:13 there’s a classic example given by the church where a violent madman us into
18:18 your home and says where’s Charlie and you know that Charlie’s upstairs you’re
18:22 not obliged to tell him i’m pretty sure that the Church teaches that it’s okay
18:26 to quote-unquote lie in that circumstance because the number one
18:31 principle is life but then all these objective morality that are like
18:37 intrinsically true and and always true and a whole lotta have been true its it
18:42 undermines this whole concept dollar shalt not bear false witness for example
18:46 if you don’t say the truth to the murderer you did bear false witness
18:52 even if you choose to call it something else for me there’s no difference I
18:57 think it undermines the whole objectivity of the thing another example
19:01 I would bring to counter what you’re saying and the way that we are free more
19:06 free with religion then without is the example of Jesus on the Sabbath you was
19:12 doing things on the Sabbath and they objected and he said quite simply that
19:18 the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath so it’s just a question
19:22 really of priority and hierarchy and of the reality of that hierarchy of values
19:28 and not becoming obsessed with the letter of the law and man-made
19:32 traditions he was quite adamant about that with the Jews of his day you talked
19:37 about the ten commandments so one of them is thou shalt not kill for example
19:41 so as far as i understand you do think there are some
19:44 circumstances when self-defense exactly where it could be legitimate and you
19:49 want violate the Commandant that’s correct and there’s no compromise
19:53 whatsoever of the principles and how do you tell the difference
19:58 that’s the challenge of living because if it’s not a challenge then it’s not
20:01 going to exercise our free will as moral agents what is the difference between
20:06 saying thou shalt not kill this is objectively true always has been always
20:11 will be but there are some circumstances where you can and this we have to
20:16 determine what it is that we’re doing this and just saying sometimes it’s okay
20:21 to kill in some circumstances self-defense or the the essential
20:25 difference is understanding that in principle there is an elegant solution
20:30 to a very very very messy math equation on the chalkboard there’s a difference
20:35 between saying it’s just nonsense and let’s just forget about math and saying
20:40 well I have it on authority from these geniuses that means something and if i
20:47 wanted to apply myself take a lifetime or two I too could see through that but
20:52 i’ll just take it on authority for now and I’m comforted by the principle that
20:56 one plus one is two and that’s the foundation for everything at this is
21:00 legitimate
21:01 I think there’s a very big difference between saying well we don’t know
21:04 because they are exceptions are the complexities and nuances and we were
21:07 feeble minded frankly and on the other hand saying i know that god is good i
21:12 know that he created a rational universe
21:14 I know that science is good i know that ultimately there’s a rational
21:17 explanation for everything whether to go citing an Elvis sighting or quantum
21:23 tunneling or whatever it is i know there’s a perfectly reasonable
21:25 explanation i think it’s a more scientific approach rather than just
21:29 saying there’s no difference between the illusion of science and the reality of
21:35 science I think I know where the different slides so when you go to this
21:39 chalkboard and there’s this message equation that you don’t understand some
21:42 people does your actually it means something at face value you either
21:47 accept the claim that means something are you rejected but if you choose to
21:51 accept that you can then work and understand it and at some point you can
21:55 actually achieve
21:56 and understanding not even with them two lifetimes right and one half time you
22:01 could probably do it you don’t finding out what we’re going to let you have
22:03 depending yes but that’s still it’s within grasp but the examples that you
22:08 give me with God and this perfect answer or dissolution this is not even security
22:14 clearance chiva ball as far as I understand you have knowledge of anyone
22:18 who actually achieved it
22:20 yeah all the saints in heaven right this is this is the whole point is there’s
22:24 definitely a connection between us in this fallen world the saints in heaven
22:28 who are with God who see God and who are moving every moment closer and closer to
22:33 god and his love and his his wisdom so there’s there’s a hierarchy and there’s
22:38 a connection
22:39 how do you determine if somebody is a saint or not one simple way the the
22:44 easiest way is if this person died for his Christian faith so Muslims takeover
22:51 they say convert or die if you don’t renounce Jesus Christ we will kill you
22:56 because you’re Christian and you say i’m willing to die for him and they kill you
23:00 you actually go straight to heaven and urs a that’s the easiest quickest way to
23:04 have some of the same there’s something you just said that really really scared
23:08 me if you’re willing to die for your faith in islam this is a concept in
23:14 Omaha bizim it’s difficult for me that you don’t see the problem in this
23:20 because these people that for example blow themselves up they do think that
23:24 they will go to heaven because they died for their faith and you say all but also
23:29 in Christianity if you die for your friend it’s also general standard my
23:33 you’re missing one very important principle if you’re killing innocent
23:38 lives in order to die for the faith and go to heaven you’re breaking one of the
23:42 Ten Commandments but then you just said that you can argue that the Commandant
23:47 shalt not kill you could make an argument
23:49 well yeah if you struggle as you’re dying for your faith and you happen to
23:53 kill one of the six guys who is attacking you
23:55 so you can protect your family how you killed in self-defense as you are dying
24:00:00 as a murder that has happened
24:01:00 it will happen and there’s nothing wrong with that because the principle is that
24:05:00 you are trying to defend innocent life against an attack
24:09:00 how do you
24:10:00 you determine that innocent lives is the criterion every life is worthy of being
24:16:00 defended if these murderous people come to your home and they want to kill you
24:20:00 because of what you believe whether you’re Christian know whatever
24:23:00 mhm you have the right to defend yourself that’s the principle of life at
24:26:00 work and so there’s a huge difference between suicide bombing people because
24:32:00 they have the wrong religion and being the victim of the same aggression will
24:37:00 take the case of extreme Islam because it’s in the news and genetics on
24:42:00 everyone’s mind i personally like Islamic it’s a false religion but i
24:46:00 think it that they worship the same God that we in the Jews do so they’re very
24:49:00 close to my heart but if these extreme levels came in and were killing me and
24:55:00 my family i would i would kill some of them in self-defense
24:59:00 I hope it would save the lives of the innocent even though the people i’m
25:03:00 protecting wouldn’t necessarily be Christian huge difference for me between
25:07:00 the Christian martyrs dying passively and a suicide bomber planning a
25:12:00 malicious hateful violent murderous event I actually I understand the
25:16:00 difference is quite clear the difference but it’s clear for us but it’s not clear
25:21:00 for them it’s a very very subjective thing you know when you said you have to
25:26:00 protect innocent even the term in essence is a highly subjective term i am
25:31:00 sure that when you talk with these people who are ready to die they are a
25:35:00 hundred percent convinced that what they’re doing is right and they have
25:38:00 arguments and they believe those arguments and they have eight at least
25:42:00 partially self-consistent story about why they’re doing this it makes sense in
25:47:00 their framework they have a justification for example you you make
25:52:00 your own investigation okay well if they want to attack me that I can defend
25:55:00 myself and I get makes sense even make sense for me because I’m from also like
25:59:00 Western yeah Western culture and we share very much and culture and so on
26:03:00 there’s nothing for me there is nothing that differentiate the two other than we
26:08:00 happen to agree and they they happen to the cultural relativism well let’s let’s
26:13:00 just get rid of that thing that’s bothering about the innocent people
26:16:00 let’s say that there is a really sick pedophile who killed his young child
26:19:00 victims after having sex with him horrendous criminal he’s guilty
26:23:00 and he doesn’t deny he’s proud of it so I’m the security guard so some murderous
26:28:00 person comes in and wants to kill him
26:30:00 I am protecting him his innocence doesn’t mean that he’s not some sick
26:35:00 criminal murderous pervert what i mean by innocence is that he has the right to
26:40:00 life this guy that guy deserves to be protected and that’s what i mean by
26:45:00 innocent life because there’s the aggressor coming no matter how they
26:49:00 justify you know he deserves to die and it’s not anything it’s just not his
26:52:00 place to come in sure you know her but so the whole question of innocence
26:56:00 really is a lot broader like you then then I have to ask you then so are you
27:01:00 against the death penalty
27:03:00 the first principle is the principle of life i’m pro-life for the children in
27:08:00 the womb the elderly the criminal the fact that the church hasn’t come down
27:13:00 with a totally dogmatic hard line on the death penalty but just is more or less
27:17:00 leaning towards clemency tells me there are some nuance cases where maybe you
27:22:00 know what it’s an extension of self-defense this person unfortunately
27:26:00 doesn’t leave us an option now I wouldn’t want to have to make that call
27:29:00 that seems like a tough call to make but I’m willing to admit that in principle
27:33:00 there may be cases where the death penalty is ok but i would imagine that
27:37:00 those cases are few and far between
27:39:00 it’s very hard for us to agree on anything objective you know you’re like
27:45:00 okay the Catholic Church doesn’t have that a diplomatic position on this but
27:50:00 the link towards that but then I suppose there exists this answer that is above
27:55:00 this whether it’s right or wrong or what God knows in each case in each case and
28:01:00 Katee K’s it’s a case by case then let’s take a simpler clear-cut example of
28:05:00 abortion you can’t really find nuanced maybe there’s one case where the
28:10:00 mother’s life at risk and they’re trying to save the baby the baby dies but you
28:14:00 take that intervention even though there’s a risk of killing the baby
28:18:00 the principle is to save the mother and the baby and it just so happens there’s
28:21:00 a reason the baby dies it’s not it’s not a violation of that predictable you can
28:25:00 make it as subtle as you want for example you could say like what if
28:28:00 there’s a one-in-a-million chance that the baby dies during the intervention
28:32:00 and a few the information you save both but there’s a one in 1,000,000 chance
28:36:00 that the baby dies should you do it
28:38:00 yeah well yes obviously but then a one-and-a-half chance that he dies a 50
28:44:00 50 GS
28:44:00 I don’t want you to say like what you should do it or not the point is you can
28:48:00 always make it as no ones like you can find a graze on
28:52:00 yes okay you do it yes at six percent what if I say it’s 55-percent and you
28:57:00 know it for me
28:58:00 this shows me that there is no right answer because it’s just what risk are
29:03:00 you willing to take
29:04:00 that’s all there is essentially the fact that it’s difficult and challenging to
29:09:00 answer in those gray areas i think proves that there is a very important
29:16:00 moral question that something of value hinges on the decision if it was
29:22:00 something insignificant we wouldn’t be searching for that delicate nuances gray
29:25:00 area where it’s hard to find the answer but we’re not Catholic because it
29:31:00 simplifies morality that does clarify a lot of situations like for example
29:36:00 sexual morality in our society today I can sympathize with the Atheist when
29:41:00 they just don’t want rules about who does what in the bedroom
29:45:00 I can understand that since i became religious i have a completely different
29:51:00 perspective where God Almighty who made human nature and has a plan for humans
29:56:00 and loves humans he says don’t have gay sex so you just don’t have gay sex you
30:02:00 know even though you could legitimize it as an atheist same thing with pedophilia
30:05:00 like if there’s a 60 year old man with a six-year-old girl they could probably
30:10:00 get some sexual thing that would be pleasurable between the two of them but
30:15:00 maybe that six maybe not but whatever why not why not mrs. the thing about
30:20:00 morality right if you’re going to talk about cultural relativism you know
30:24:00 Charles Manson the killer he was a big proponent of getting rid of all the
30:29:00 cultural taboos that were lingering in society in a post-christian world why
30:34:00 are we against homosexuality why are we against pedal feel my let’s get rid of
30:39:00 all these social constructs if it feels good and it’s two consenting people
30:44:00 there’s something that you did that kind of makes me a bit on
30:48:00 comfortable you are talking about that two men having sex and then youyou
30:52:00 contrasted there compared to a pedophiles no i didn’t i just threw two
30:56:00 examples the only thing that joins them is that they’re taboo there are bidden
31:01:00 by my religion yo care about your religion yes for me one is completely ok
31:08:00 and one of them is completely not okay and for me the line is the consenting
31:13:00 adults
31:15:00 what is the problem with father and son consenting to gay marriage to each other
31:20:00 in the Sun more than 18 if you want to be
31:24:00 does it make you more comfortable yes knew both of them want to be with each
31:28:00 other
31:28:00 yeah then ok if you want i don’t have the taboo of incest a lot of people have
31:34:00 first of all it’s two guys so they can’t have babies
31:38:00 what about father daughter and the daughter is more than 18
31:42:00 yeah and they both agree and that’s what what i want i am a third party in this
31:47:00 thing I don’t have anything to say in this thing I mean I don’t think it’s a
31:51:00 good idea because the six-year-old daughter says yeah I want to show off
31:56:00 and willing to do but that you want that if that’s a different thing because
32:00:00 she’s not an adult and of course what does it mean to be an adult it’s unclear
32:04:00 but in our society it’s defined at 18 years old and I think that’s a
32:07:00 reasonable definition for most not but not all other eighteen-year-old to our
32:13:00 capacity of course of course you have 34 years old that also mat relax mental
32:18:00 capacity and will also get amused by your partners and if you’re 18 years
32:22:00 with somebody that’s very old
32:24:00 that’s not a good idea because you have a controlled dominance but if you
32:29:00 nonetheless want to do it when my to say knows you guys are adults you do
32:33:00 whatever you want if it’s consenting of course is the reason for giving your
32:37:00 consent matter a sexual act and the consent is given for reasons of deep
32:42:00 devotion and love and poetry and candlelit dinners versus a bag of money
32:45:00 in a bag of cocaine
32:47:00 no I one consent i would say one is more dangerous at least the eyes of the light
32:52:00 should be regarded as equal I mean of course in Canada prostitution is illegal
32:56:00 so technique we doing this would be illegal under law Apriori I don’t see a
33:02:00 problem there because I have something that you want and you have something
33:06:00 that I want and I could do an exchange and if both parties are are happy with
33:10:00 this and I have no objection I’d love this really there’s no difference
33:14:00 between your application of your principles to these hypothetical
33:18:00 situations and my application of Catholic principles
33:21:00 the only difference is that my Catholic principles on the surface to an atheist
33:25:00 would appear more rigorous more limited
33:27:00 we can do fewer things than the Atheist the Atheist has gay marriage
33:32:00 masturbation adultery all kinds of things so you are against homosexuality
33:36:00 I suppose where there’s no free choice there’s no possibility of sin so if you
33:42:00 have an inclination to adultery you want to sleep with your neighbor’s wife
33:46:00 that’s not a sin that’s just the temptation but if you act on it that’s
33:50:00 the same so it’s the same thing with masturbation or yeah homosexual act or
33:54:00 stealing you know you could be inclined i really want that guy’s yes ipad yes or
34:01:00 a stereo yeah that’s happy but wanting it having that feeling or that desire
34:07:00 that orientation is Madison but then the Act would be a sin
34:10:00 yeah to varying degrees depending on what you know of course if you make up
34:14:00 with someone and you don’t know it’s a guy then what’s that said but I glad no
34:21:00 no I mean what you know in terms of morality if you think that it’s
34:25:00 perfectly healthy and normal and the legitimate and irrational and saying for
34:30:00 two men have sex with each other and you do that there’s no mortal sin and we
34:33:00 talked about people who blow themselves up they don’t know that what they’re
34:37:00 doing is wrong
34:38:00 so technically it’s not a sin for them because they hope that whatever it
34:42:00 doesn’t look good but only God knows I wouldn’t wish hell on those people would
34:47:00 you
34:48:00 it’s not an extra that’s what I’m forgot to tell you that is not a nice place so
34:52:00 I wouldn’t wish it on anybody so you think that the actor for example my
34:57:00 sexuality is a sense of which means that’s not good
34:59:00 will any sex outside of marriage ok yeah ok but why is that because god said so
35:05:00 that’s the short answer I could draw on the chalkboard all kinds of ways to make
35:08:00 it work oh well if I sleep with the secretary and her husband ever find that
35:12:00 I could map out this whole scenario where it actually it looks pretty good
35:15:00 to the atheist but God said don’t do it so that’s what you’re not interested to
35:20:00 know why of course I’m clear happen that at some point you understand why God
35:28:00 doesn’t want you to do this and you disagree with the reason my whole body
35:35:00 and soul could repel against God’s reality he could and it does
35:41:00 that’s the challenge of being a Christian in this fallen world is that
35:43:00 we don’t want to do it god’s way we want to do it our way that’s the whole
35:47:00 struggle of being a Christian of course we know what the right thing is to do in
35:51:00 a lot of circumstances cut and dry and just don’t do it even st. Paul said I
35:56:00 don’t do what i want to do i do what I don’t want to I don’t do the right thing
36:00:00 I do the wrong thing
36:01:00 there’s my spirit and then there’s my body my flesh and my desire and they’re
36:06:00 at odds with each other i was in germany in unique and there for two years I was
36:10:00 walking downtown and was the standard of Muslims actually so i went there at top
36:15:00 with them and one of them approach for I talked a lot with him and I asked him
36:19:00 why why don’t you eat pork and he told me that because God told me I cannot eat
36:24:00 pork and for me it was like well that doesn’t make any sense because if you
36:28:00 don’t tell me why I don’t see any reason to not do it
36:33:00 actually this story that comes to mind is Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac
36:37:00 remember that yes i think the power of Abraham’s faith is the whole point of
36:43:00 the Muslim saying God said nautique works i’m not going to work and I trust
36:48:00 god there’s a connection between faith and obedience it turned out that Isaac
36:53:00 wasn’t sacrifice a lot of a serious will say what God’s means he’s testing us and
36:58:00 all that sort of thing that’s not how we see it that’s not how a good Muslim sees
37:00:00 it or get you a good Christian we the monotheists see God is all good all
37:05:00 loving and in our weakness and in our struggle to learn how to love and how to
37:10:00 be godlike we can end up in some pretty weird situations bewildering
37:15:00 circumstances and it’s not like God manipulated us into some weird scenario
37:20:00 God put us in eat in there in the perfect paradise and we deviated and we
37:26:00 suffer the consequences and these consequences are not imposed arbitrarily
37:30:00 bison tyrant they’re actually just cause and effect you move away from the light
37:35:00 and you’re in the darkness you know you put your hand in the fire and you get
37:38:00 burned that’s the nature of reality so I see the beauty in the arbitrary will of
37:43:00 God as its portrayed even though it seems absurd and Abraham you could say
37:47:00 would be justified to say i’m not going to do that I waited so long to get the
37:51:00 Sun I’m already old doesn’t make sense because you
37:54:00 miss that he did my air and it doesn’t make sense i’m not going to do it that
37:58:00 would be the rational atheist approach but he had faith so it was a good thing
38:02:00 that he trusted God yeah and I suppose and for you is it legitimate for you do
38:08:00 you think they are right and not eating part because god said so I think it’s
38:13:00 false religion and that were allowed to park but i think that according to his
38:17:00 conscience he has to be his conscience and his religion that hopefully he
38:20:00 believes in teachers I’m not work
38:22:00 he should not important but there is a question that the fundamental question
38:26:00 is how do you differentiate between the two
38:28:00 how do you differentiate between a case that Abraham had where God told him kill
38:34:00 Isaac and a Muslim does and doesn’t want to eat pork because God tells him how
38:40:00 would you tell a Muslim that is not correct and to you how do you know that
38:45:00 you are correct
38:47:00 it’s a bunch of converging arguments that brings me to the conclusion that
38:51:00 Christianity is true and Islamist falls in Judaism is false Judaism was true up
38:56:00 until the Messiah came and even even during that three messianic . the Jews
39:00:00 went astray always that’s the whole Old Testament just read it and you’ll see
39:04:00 that they’re going astray all the time but there’s that true religion that is
39:08:00 carried through up until the coming of Messiah the Messiah came and now it’s
39:11:00 it’s the Catholic Church so the question is how do I know I’m in the right church
39:15:00 and how do I know Islam is not the true religion the one true religion because
39:18:00 when two worldviews contradict each other if there’s one objective reality
39:22:00 and one objective moral truth one objective true religion we can’t both be
39:26:00 right
39:27:00 we could both be wrong there may be some third religion that’s the true religion
39:31:00 or hypothetically non hypothetically I think there’s a truth but getting back
39:36:00 to how you know it’s looking at the evidence for example they deny the
39:40:00 crucifixion of Christ I just look at the evidence and say well I think Christ was
39:44:00 crucified maybe he wasn’t but I look at Jewish Bible the Christian Bible and
39:49:00 then the Quran and I see discrepancies I look at the history the non-jewish
39:53:00 non-christian history of the first century and the birth of Christianity
39:56:00 and look at what the Muslims say and I choose to go with the evidence that says
40:00:00 that Christianity was Christian rather than Muslim because the Muslims have a
40:04:00 different view
40:05:00 no not only that the religious books but of salvation history so it’s just a
40:09:00 question of looking at objective reality looking at your sources looking at
40:12:00 history looking at scholarships looking at everything and of course no one has
40:16:00 time to really really dig into depth to learn all the original languages to look
40:20:00 at all the original manuscripts to cross-reference them and do all that
40:23:00 sort of thing but you look at the works that summarize that and the works of
40:27:00 scholarship in the works of popular writings and you can also look at the
40:31:00 people that have come before you who are the great heroes of your faith and what
40:34:00 did they teach that would not be Christian at all if it were not for the
40:37:00 saints the saints that made me choose strategy / islam i wanted to be Muslim
40:42:00 when I found God but I was compelled by the evidence of the heroic virtue of the
40:48:00 saints and how they lived and how they died and its twenty centuries of saints
40:52:00 it’s the lives of the saints of the deaths of the Saints and the love the
40:57:00 Saints I understand what you’re what you’re saying but another person would
41:01:00 have a different thriller somehow things are more important to them and they say
41:04:00 oh that’s more important i’m going to choose Islam and it seems like a very
41:07:00 subjective thing I will of course it is one yr you ate is why you’re not
41:12:00 Catholic it’s because you are moved by what you read and what you’ve seen what
41:17:00 you’ve experienced in and science and everything else and your your upbringing
41:20:00 or whatever but being an 80s at it just means that I I don’t subscribe to
41:26:00 something
41:27:00 it so happens that I also knew believe things about the world but that’s a
41:31:00 different story when i sent an 80s because I didn’t I wasn’t convinced by
41:35:00 the arguments you heard you’ve heard the witnesses for example that Jesus Christ
41:40:00 is God and coordinate is the second person of the Trinity came to earth and
41:44:00 died for your sins you’ve heard this I heard yes you just don’t believe it
41:47:00 ain’t even after investigation and I don’t believe it
41:51:00 Brandon yes I was an atheist what changed me in my particular subjective
41:56:00 path to God was asking the tough questions about meeting about value and
42:01:00 about morality and ultimately am i all alone or is the other real and if I’m
42:07:00 not the source of life then who is
42:09:00 that’s the philosophical approach that brought me to go but you’re on a
42:11:00 completely different path you may just here a piece of music one day
42:15:00 and say wow god has got I don’t look at the default sincere Muslim has some kind
42:21:00 of fool who’s diluted and in any way inferior to me intellectually I just
42:25:00 look at him as being on a different path and God watching very carefully and
42:29:00 doing everything in his power to cooperate with that muslim and loving
42:32:00 him and keeping track of when he violates his conscience and when he
42:37:00 obeys his conscience my problem with this whole essentially this whole story
42:41:00 I mean have you heard of Carl Sagan yeah anyways we had the famous sentence
42:46:00 extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence you have been
42:51:00 convinced of the truth of christianity by some evidence but this is a very very
42:58:00 extraordinary claim I mean that God exists in the Bible is true and all
43:02:00 these things the evidence that you brought up for me that that doesn’t
43:06:00 stack up nearly as much as i would need to think that they claim is true i think
43:13:00 that it’s extraordinary that I exist and that i have no way scientifically of
43:19:00 justifying this hypothesis that you exist i just have to have a pragmatic
43:23:00 naïve realism and just say well let’s get on with life
43:27:00 you’re in that same boat you have to acknowledge that you partake of life and
43:32:00 love and goodness and truth and beauty and just as in all these things
43:39:00 and I know for a fact that deep down you’re not satisfied with a bunch of
43:44:00 molecules coming together in the right way and getting sophisticated to the
43:48:00 point where we can create the idea of God and create the idea of perfect
43:54:00 justice and create the idea of good versus evil that’s not satisfied
43:57:00 why is completely arbitrary meaningless it has no value to him but the universe
44:02:00 doesn’t owe us meaning in your heart of hearts you want your life to matter i
44:08:00 know that
44:09:00 yeah I mean yes I do want my life to minor yes and if you say it’s a
44:13:00 Darwinian mechanism to propagate the species that doesn’t know but that
44:16:00 doesn’t satisfy you well I mean I want my life to matter in the way that I want
44:21:00 it to matter essentially the ephemeral or the fleeting nature of life all life
44:27:00 from the beginning to the end it’s in significance is undeniably
44:31:00 overwhelmingly depressing it is it is objectively if you actually rationally
44:38:00 scientifically look at reality as you an atheist portray it and infinitely brief
44:44:00 there’s no lasting value and this is not where i find value because for me the
44:50:00 meaning of my life will not be in 10 to the hundred years what will I have
44:55:00 accomplished for me this doesn’t matter why have you not kill yourself why do
45:01:00 you not plan on killing yourself what because I do enjoy living and I presume
45:05:00 you would struggle to survive if you’re in circumstances where it was precarious
45:10:00 for example if your health declines you’ll see medical help or if you’re in
45:14:00 a dangerous situation you’ll seek safety research of things i think it’s only
45:18:00 natural and human and in your heart of hearts you value your life and you know
45:22:00 that your life has meaning
45:23:00 that’s the driving force behind struggling to survive know you value
45:29:00 your life enough to seek medical help if you’re sick and in the hope that i will
45:34:00 have more interesting experience if you want more of life and all life has to
45:38:00 offer you
45:39:00 yes yeah you have a hunger for more like there’s not going to come a time where
45:43:00 you say I’ve had enough life my first of all i’m not i’m not about to die so it’s
45:47:00 hard for me to say i know i still have a lot of the things to experience and to
45:51:00 live for but I cannot see
45:53:00 play when i’m going to be a hundred and five years old maybe i’ll be like look I
45:58:00 did what I had to do a nice i had a good life and life I can paint a picture for
46:03:00 you where you will say yes to prolonged youth prolonged health prolonged
46:10:00 creativity and intellectual capacity to learn and to experience things you’re
46:14:00 going to say yes yes yes yes to all these because it gives me higher quality
46:18:00 of life right but that’s what we’re all after all after happiness and all the
46:22:00 things that you want i want but the difference is that you seem to be
46:25:00 willing to say well you know the quality of my life will decline at the end and
46:30:00 i’ll be ready to just and I don’t know we can prove me right by eliminating
46:36:00 sickness and decaying body and an age and declining intellectual those things
46:41:00 and just say if you could have more I resource you want heaven with God
46:45:00 forever of course you did well that i’m not sure that I’m not sure but if you
46:50:00 ask me
46:51:00 would you like to live say 200 years a very good health i would say like
46:55:00 $PERCENT sure but that is not because my life has any intrinsic value in itself
47:01:00 is because of what I experienced with it I’m not gonna be sad because I stopped
47:05:00 existing because I and at least as far as i understand it was not exist i will
47:09:00 not get them about it but you yourself have said that the value of your
47:13:00 existence is the fact that you are a witness to the rain were witness to the
47:18:00 waterfall you are an accumulator of experience and you are essentially a
47:24:00 sponge for soaking up the good things that life has to offer no yeah I’m yes
47:28:00 to something and and not only down but also i tried to also make the life of
47:34:00 other people
47:34:00 good as well maybe we’ll end with one topic was a little bit big the topic of
47:39:00 love like so your mother’s love for you just talk about that what it means in
47:43:00 terms of your Atheist worldview we have various degrees of approaching the thing
47:48:00 i can know that the reason that my mother loves me
47:53:00 biology class because I’m her son and that there is some genetic component to
47:58:00 it i know that this is how the mechanics of the things work but when I
48:02:00 experienced it like i just love my mother and she loves me and like you are
48:06:00 a lower-level we don’t wonder why are these things the way they are is it like
48:11:00 nutrition you just eat the food that tastes good and you don’t think about it
48:14:00 too much but if you analyze you could see the cold hard fact of those
48:18:00 nutrients going into your bloodstream that is that’s what we do all the time
48:21:00 even when like that’s just that’s another level it’s the you can’t really
48:25:00 talk about them at the same time somehow there are times where I analyzed the
48:30:00 nitty-gritty details of stains and are times where I don’t
48:35:00 so let go interests and you just experienced things as they are for me
48:40:00 it’s unclear there are right answer but overall I’m pretty satisfied with my
48:44:00 girls your eyes things i find yourself consistent and logical and i find it
48:49:00 does work for me as well and and it makes sense with everything I understand
48:55:00 about the universe as well so you just to be clear you never believed in God as
49:00:00 a child I probably did I suppose because you know I curling here it’s a very
49:05:00 Catholic background here especially if you’re a french-canadian as well like me
49:09:00 like there’s a lot of influence oh for sure for sure i think i might have
49:13:00 believed they think but it’s just not a important factor so much for me anymore
49:18:00 do you envy people have free sometimes i do sometimes i do sometimes I would like
49:23:00 to pretend like things that are not true are true and i would like to pretend
49:28:00 like there is some somebody that could possibly care but me wanting to pretend
49:34:00 sometimes it’s not a good argument for me so so you just answered your own
49:38:00 question about is the reality of freewill better than the illusion of
49:42:00 free will I think it’s just I don’t know what I mean I suppose it would be nice
49:45:00 if I knew that there would be some one that cares for me in the grand scheme of
49:52:00 things I suppose sometimes it could be nice and so your I have to do could be
49:56:00 nice i supposed to do you think you would be inclined to love a god that
50:00:00 loves you so much as as Christianity teaches that God loves it
50:03:00 well when it natural to respond to love with love and it depends i mean the god
50:10:00 of Christianity i have like a lot of objections
50:12:00 well that that is another big topic as well
50:15:00 but just to know for the central the Old Testament the part about Genesis and all
50:21:00 these things I what’s your position on this
50:23:00 my position is the Catholic position which is why forget know the Bible is
50:28:00 inerrant there’s no air there’s no contradiction
50:31:00 ok and its primary author is the Holy Spirit’s got like a we have infallible
50:37:00 Sacred Scripture and sacred tradition and we have an infallible head of the
50:41:00 church the Pope who is protected from teaching error concerning faith and
50:45:00 morals in the Bible there are some questionable things that God does he
50:51:00 have those are easily explained
50:52:00 for example whenever they talk about God’s anger he’s not disturbed by any
50:56:00 emotion
50:57:00 he’s not it’s a condescension it’s a literary technique whereby God the
51:02:00 inevitable and undefinable reaches down to his creatures on our level talks with
51:07:00 on our level and when he says in the Bible that he’s angry
51:11:00 we understand right away but in truth in reality he’s not perturbed in the
51:16:00 slightest he’s perfectly happy all the time always was always is and always
51:20:00 will be his anger is a cause-and-effect working out of reality just like when
51:25:00 you stick your hand in the fire
51:27:00 God said not to do it he’s angry when you do it and that anger is that burning
51:31:00 of your flesh on your fingertips that’s what is anger is but he’s perfectly
51:35:00 tranquil peaceful happy and whatever there’s no anger there’s not there’s no
51:38:00 emotion getting stirred up in in God ever he needs to condescend to this app
51:43:00 so that a lot about in the Bible given an arbitrary amount of interpretation
51:48:00 you can make anything say anything
51:51:00 ok so I understand what you’re saying about this condescension and so on and
51:56:00 so forth but and actually it does make sense and that’s why you believe it is
52:01:00 because it makes sense for you but it’s quite a bit convoluted and the thing is
52:06:00 you could explain anything right about the that the Garden of Eden factory
52:11:00 happened but then you can come up with some mechanism in the inside and you
52:16:00 will rescue the thing
52:18:00 yeah yeah but they’re there there’s something that you’re missing in your
52:21:00 evaluation and that’s that my acceptance of the Bible is not based on the Bible
52:28:00 my acceptance of the Bible
52:29:00 was based on my trust in the saints and my trust in god because before I found
52:35:00 God and I didn’t believe the Bible you know and after i found god I still don’t
52:39:00 believe the Bible but i believe the heroic saints who in their virtue and
52:43:00 their love of God was so powerful they love my god so perfectly they were able
52:47:00 to open up scripture and they told me to trust the church i could possibly admire
52:53:00 some of the saints who gave their lives for four people and so on i can
52:57:00 appreciate what they did as well and I think they’re very good people and so on
53:01:00 that if there’s quite a bit of jumps that you have to do
53:04:00 logically from going to add I admired science to it’s not that different from
53:10:00 your typical Western atheist believing what he reads in Scientific American you
53:15:00 swallow a lot of information you can verify a lot of information about that
53:19:00 and there’s a there’s a an inherent need for us to do that because we don’t have
53:22:00 time to verify when i read articles i would possibly trust the person that
53:29:00 says it because they are in the magazine I would be like okay
53:32:00 apriori I believe what you will you learn otherwise I’ll until I heard
53:35:00 otherwise another thing is this knowledge here affects my life
53:39:00 not much actually I come here and like I tell you all I have a dog in order like
53:44:00 okay I you have a dog that’s fine i believe you
53:47:00 I come here and I say like I mean the Messiah you’re not get trust me as much
53:51:00 and for me it’s like the same thing that claims are very very different nature
53:54:00 and also the mechanism by which that claims have been verified as completely
53:58:00 different I mean in a scientific journal you would hope that there is a
54:02:00 scientific method that confirms or at least removes as much by as possible you
54:06:00 know but in geology there’s no as far as I understand there’s no such process
54:11:00 which is as reliable or in that you cannot confirm it
54:14:00 IC theology as a scientific system we have the data of the sacred deposit of
54:19:00 faith which is the Bible and sacred tradition
54:23:00 I mean I’ve accepted all of that complex the Sacred Scripture and sacred
54:29:00 tradition based on number one my unshakable faith in God the Father and
54:34:00 on the lives in the witness the testimony of the saints it is a big leap
54:40:00 but you don’t leap into
54:41:00 vague cloud of unknowing you leap into a library of historical documents and
54:48:00 theology and testimony and pure philosophy and natural philosophy and
54:53:00 theology and you leap into that it’s up to you how much you dig into it as
54:58:00 Catholics were obliged to dig into the truth were obliged to be philosophers
55:01:00 and I admit that i’m following I could be wrong and i might be part of a false
55:05:00 religion but i’m pretty sure and keep digging into it and verifying and of
55:09:00 course you could point to confirmation bias but if i’m seeking truth is not in
55:13:00 my interest to delude myself if Islam is true and strategies false i will join
55:18:00 Islam but I am convinced more and more that Christianity is true and as long as
55:24:00 false the point to make about the confirmation is actually quite true
55:27:00 because when you have a worldview it’s quite easy to find supporting evidence
55:31:00 for example the Easter Bunny you can find a lot of evidence exists existence
55:35:00 there’s pictures of him everywhere and easter there’s even a holiday for him
55:39:00 it’s easy to find evidence that supported belief
55:42:00 what’s hard is to try to look out for evidence that do not support you believe
55:47:00 i would sidestep the entire question why do I believe in God the Father and why
55:53:00 do I not believe in the Easter Bunny it comes down to that existential angst of
55:58:00 am I the source of my own existence or not a my god or is God God and that is
56:02:00 not the kind of thing you can jumbled up with all kinds of cultural confusion you
56:06:00 go home at night you lay in bed and you ask yourself what am I how did I get
56:11:00 here what is this life that i partake of and I the source of life or is there
56:16:00 something outside of me and above me that’s the source of my life you cannot
56:19:00 compare the Easter Bunny to God Almighty because when you lay down at night and
56:24:00 in your heart of hurts especially if you’re sad and lonely and things aren’t
56:27:00 going well you won’t be thinking about the Easter Bunny you really want you’ll
56:30:00 be thinking about your life what it means how you got here and these eggs
56:34:00 deep existential questions not about chocolate yeah but actually it the fact
56:39:00 that we humans would look for some and triple Norfolk figure is already signed
56:46:00 that there’s bias in our God’s not anthropomorphic I mean at least at least
56:50:00 at least god made us in His image reason free will but it actually
56:54:00 this is still enter prolific in the sense that it has will it’s good
56:59:00 it helps people I suppose it performs miracle is are all anthropomorphic
57:04:00 qualities usually in society people are good people do stuff people love each
57:09:00 other no God love you that’s a highly entrepreneur ‘fuck I understand how the
57:14:00 person in your it is a further three persons but it’s the inverse of
57:18:00 anthropomorphic meaning that we are made in god’s image in the physical sense in
57:24:00 as much as the second person of the Holy Trinity became man and he’s the first
57:28:00 man and we are modeled after him and we’re supposed to imitate him
57:32:00 oh Jesus Christ is a human being even now up in heaven he has flesh it’s a
57:36:00 glorified flesh but he is two legs two arms and the head that’s almost silly
57:40:00 because I’m gonna ask where is he located but like at the right hand of
57:44:00 the Father and have it so do you think Kevin is somewhere physical when you’re
57:49:00 in heaven to use standards of God you didn’t have a body first of all we are
57:54:00 familiar with our human nature and with the nature of the universe as it is yes
57:57:00 yes so heaven is not going to be unfamiliar it will be familiar
58:02:00 it’ll just be better Jesus Christ is in the Eucharist so he is right now if you
58:08:00 look behind us using this church
58:10:00 yes in the tabernacle I suppose technically also also God is also
58:17:00 everywhere as well so he is also their ways is also here is also everywhere so
58:22:00 if there’s a why should we talk more about this thing what should we make a
58:26:00 distinction with the same reason we make a distinction between the historical
58:30:00 fact of Jesus incarnation when he came took on flesh was born in the $YEAR
58:33:00 version and walked around Galilee and Judea yes will you admit that that’s a
58:38:00 unique and special and significant instance of God’s presence you can make
58:45:00 it if you so on you can make anything to anything so if you want you can say it’s
58:49:00 different there then it’s also different than it when he is there if if if you
58:53:00 want them in what you do you do not understand the difference if
59:00:00 Jesus Christ chose right now to come down from heaven and stand in front of
59:05:00 us that would be more exciting it would be a more tangible somehow it would be
59:11:00 like a shake his hand you know do not see the significance of the course of
59:16:00 course of course I prevention of course i do of course i do I mean I mean it’s
59:20:00 the same thing with the Eucharist in the tabernacle it’s just not there for a
59:24:00 modest it’s more it’s more exciting it’s tangible we’re gonna eat him in care you
59:28:00 know which is a bit creepy if you ask me if you know yet he lost most of his
59:33:00 disciples at that moment when he said the effort in John 6 he said multiple
59:36:00 times time having is here you have to eat my flesh and drink my blood and
59:40:00 blood is have lupus
59:41:00 actually can you imagine if sounds a bit creepy if you ask me but yeah I mean you
59:47:00 asked me earlier what don’t you want to know why God prohibits homosexual act of
59:52:00 course I want to know and of course I want to know why we have to eat / drink
59:56:00 but I’m not going to doubt it just because it seems odd to me like I could
60:01:00 ask God about circumcision like why is that the mark of the Covenant but it
60:05:00 doesn’t occur to me to say because it’s wacky and weird i just won’t believe it
60:10:00 well for me for me yes because if i throw away the circumcision I’ve thrown
60:16:00 away Judaism Christianity and Islam I have to necessarily throw away the three
60:23:00 big monotheistic religions and then what am I left with I’m left with some
60:26:00 anonymous God the Father that’s never communicated when I found God the Father
60:31:00 I was compelled in my heart and soul to have public worship in a public religion
60:36:00 it was like a necessity to worship just like if you’re laying in bed you realize
60:39:00 you have to puke you find yourself in the bathroom or you know what’s
60:42:00 happening
60:42:00 the same thing with my conversion i found myself compelled to go and
60:46:00 publicly worship my god i just can’t throw away circumcision because it’s
60:50:00 weird or the Eucharist because it’s weird because in throwing that away i’m
60:54:00 throwing away my Christianity and Judaism Islam if you don’t throw them
60:58:00 away you have to come up with all these rather convoluted way of explaining
61:02:00 things and so on and then like explain the Bible any explain why circumcision
61:07:00 and why not at my sexuality and you have to say we don’t understand and so on you
61:11:00 can make it work billions of people make it work
61:13:00 it’s a coherent story that’s just way too convoluted for me for me archives ik
61:19:00 like look it’s much simpler for me to say the whole thing doesn’t make sense
61:24:00 and it’s just a fabrication for me but I understand for you it’s not but that’s a
61:29:00 completely subjective . and i cannot argue with you can’t convince you and
61:32:00 it’s it will be also very hard for you to convince me this is a completely
61:36:00 subjective thing of what we choose to accept as evidence actually explanations
61:41:00 are interesting and they can nourish my faith dogmatic facts that are proposed
61:47:00 to us for our belief and we have to believe that we’re going to be Catholic
61:49:00 and if we don’t believe that we’re not Catholic those dogmatic facts are
61:53:00 infallible their divine truth given by God to us and they’re unadulterated we
61:59:00 can trust them wholeheartedly but all the explanation all the theologians
62:02:00 talking about why it might be that that’s the case that’s not infallible
62:07:00 it’s not protected could be wrong so I don’t get excited about the explanation
62:12:00 I just swallow the dogmas as they come to me until my see contradiction and
62:18:00 then i’ll look for how did you call it it doesn’t have contradiction it has
62:22:00 word of paradox es yes of course when there is a contradiction that would
62:27:00 appear you think of an example of what independent new Catholic dogma that
62:32:00 contradict each other I mean I’m not I’m not I’m not I don’t know enough about
62:36:00 the catalytic would you acknowledge that it is impressive that a
62:42:00 two-thousand-year-old religion is constantly proclaiming infallible true
62:47:00 that they cannot back away from they cannot change their mind about them ever
62:51:00 science doesn’t do that science does the opposite of that sign says for now this
62:55:00 seems to be true will modify it later the Catholic Church says this is
62:58:00 absolutely objectively universally eternally true it will never change and
63:02:00 for 2,000 years has been putting its neck on the line putting out these
63:06:00 dogmatic statements do not find that impressive actually not at all because
63:09:00 because as I understand most of the claims are actually unfalsifiable like
63:13:00 Mary was a virgin and then she she gave birth to Jesus for example data is only
63:19:00 no other kids I would be very easy to falsify that claimed by showing that she
63:23:00 had no but not good at first it would be it would not
63:26:00 first of all I have been 2,000 years ago second of all thousand years ago it was
63:29:00 just yesterday that happened you understand that they were rational
63:32:00 humans just like you
63:33:00 optical rational people just like you weren’t stupid 2,000 years ago so when
63:38:00 the church and the apostles were preaching that Mary was a virgin before
63:42:00 during and after the birth of Christ that she had no other children do not
63:44:00 think that the Jews and the atheists around would be saying we’ll wait a
63:48:00 minute what about Mary son so and so I mean it could be that she only had one
63:53:00 kid Freddie but that’s a much much less impressive that she had one kid is much
63:58:00 less than what I said about her assumption into heaven but that’s also
64:01:00 can falsify that by finding her bonds we found the ones of Peter we found the
64:04:00 ball around the balls
64:05:00 how do you determine that it’s the person this is not an easy task that
64:09:00 cute that is science
64:10:00 this is sites i mean it just looking looking scientific american or whatever
64:13:00 magazine you want to look at and say hail they found the bones or so and so
64:17:00 you’re not skeptical of that first of all he would depend who and I don’t
64:21:00 think it happens to happen I mean the only thing that I can think of it is we
64:25:00 found the remnants of this Egyptian king in the tomb is because we had all these
64:29:00 records that it was this person
64:31:00 it has to be a convergence of many many forms of evidence a lot of being
64:37:00 circumstantial lot of them being documentary but just look at some of the
64:41:00 big cases of being a people in history that have been discovered and how did
64:45:00 the scientists come to the conclusion and you just how they do it but it is in
64:48:00 principle you will have to admit that it is at least in principle falsifiable
64:52:00 claimed that her body was assumed into heaven it is true that you are
64:57:00 technically correct in that in that it is technically false a fireball that is
65:02:00 true but we paint the picture for us in the early church first century second
65:07:00 century third century 4th century you could walk around the Holy Land and the
65:12:00 places where the Apostles and their their successors traveled and you would
65:16:00 find not only graves but shrines ornate shrines and layers generational layers
65:23:00 of shrines being piled on top of each other of just the accumulation of the
65:27:00 veneration of these Saints if you knew the veneration that the church in the
65:32:00 first centuries had from area I think you would admit that we should have
65:37:00 evidence of some sort of veneration too
65:40:00 taking place in the same way that we see on the other grave sites that there is a
65:44:00 common-sense argument i’m not trying to follow because because it was actually
65:48:00 the big-name heroes of the religion and have these very obvious
65:52:00 multi-generational constructions of shrines yes yes but we don’t have one
65:58:00 for Mary and people venerated marry the most so she should have one of these
66:03:00 special places archaeologically the fact that I’m infected they claim that Mary
66:09:00 was a virgin and Angie refer to Jesus and also send it to heaven that probably
66:13:00 dates to the very early time of Christianity so the thing is you do
66:18:00 believe Christianity you will not even try to find the bones you will not try
66:21:00 to know you’re not going to look for the bones of this person because in your
66:25:00 challenge she had something to heaven so why would you look for it you won’t look
66:28:00 for it but your enemies will
66:29:00 that’s my point yeah but the enemies of Christianity for letting me use MIDI
66:33:00 agreement very fast to point out the tomb where Jesus was like and where is
66:37:00 more like they were very eager to quell Christianity nip it in the bud let me
66:43:00 try a different approach with you because it seems to me that if these are
66:46:00 not important the dogs are not important they are to me but if you would dismiss
66:51:00 them as just being funny disconnected from reality not falsifiable no real
66:57:00 bearing on anything that to me doesn’t seem like a good argument against
67:02:00 embracing the strange teachings of the church
67:05:00 yes yeah understand what you mean but I completely disagree because you can make
67:09:00 an infinite amount of unfold survival claims and if i were to accept one of
67:16:00 them to be consistent i was have to accept all of them essentially what i
67:21:00 get from your perspective when you look at my face from the outside in
67:25:00 is it kind of seems arbitrary and if you accept one wild and wacky crazy
67:29:00 religious story then you have to accept the law but nothing could be further
67:32:00 from the truth because i have the certainty of this very rock-solid
67:38:00 tradition of the Catholic Church it’s always been consistent it’s always said
67:41:00 the same thing
67:42:00 it’s unchanging and as soon as someone says anything different
67:46:00 alarm bells go off maybe I misinterpreted what you’re saying but it
67:49:00 seemed to me that you are saying well if you accept this weird thing
67:52:00 and pretty much anything that’s weird you just immediately accepted
67:55:00 no I mean for me that would be a case if i were to start accepting weird stuff at
68:01:00 to be consistent that would have to accept quite a bit of them i mean it
68:04:00 would be your standard my Saturday’s I don’t accept essentially on falsifiable
68:08:00 coins or claims they are not sufficiently backed up by evidence
68:12:00 essentially do you accept the claim that your mother loves you
68:16:00 yes it’s not scientifically provable or disapproval matching actually yes I mean
68:22:00 you you can ask her do Lana and like you can ask me that God exists to 10 but but
68:28:00 it’s like pain available if you hit me for example or if I had myself and I
68:33:00 mean funny as we are you finally say yes i’m in pain I know my own I know my own
68:39:00 body actually so if i asked my mother she’s I asked her do you love me cheers
68:44:00 yes i love you and I don’t think she’s lying she knows what she feels Africa
68:49:00 but God is an exterior agent to you maybe for you is also inside you so you
68:55:00 just know but from my point of view is outside you so you say are you we you
69:00:00 believe in him well it’s like well I believe that some other guy exists but
69:05:00 it’s not like an emotion it’s not like love where it’s a subjective thing just
69:10:00 so you know we don’t define love is an emotion we have research we define it as
69:14:00 an act of the will is a reasonable act of the free will can you imagine if
69:19:00 Jesus Christ said you are commanded to love God and love your neighbor as
69:24:00 yourself
69:24:00 he might have foolish that would be if love was a feeling you’re commanded now
69:27:00 to feel something for your neighbor you cannot command someone to like someone
69:32:00 or to feel a certain way about someone have chemistry with someone you can
69:35:00 command them though to make a choice of free choice of rational choice to will
69:39:00 the good of the other person that’s what Jesus commanded it’s really interesting
69:43:00 because the Catholic Church has this position about what love is and then you
69:47:00 have to somehow almost change whole nature operates two to make it fit in
69:53:00 your because because as far as I I don’t choose the people that I love you see
69:58:00 but also we might have different definitions to you love your enemies
70:02:00 I don’t think so do you see the merit in Christ commandment that you love your
70:07:00 enemies that in some instances yes possibly not all the time and you get to
70:12:00 pick and choose yes I mean I mean the thing is I’m not saying that everything
70:16:00 that if right ever had because if we never had good feelings for each other
70:19:00 on earth but we chose to fulfill the commandment to love our enemies would
70:23:00 there be as much war and conflict is reasonable but that is that is that is
70:27:00 that is what is beside the point
70:28:00 it could be but that wouldn’t prove that wouldn’t be evidence for anything we
70:33:00 could all believe that were all brothers and sisters of you have to like love
70:39:00 each other all the time and because there’s some magical Easter Bunny
70:43:00 that-that-that-that said we should and the world would be possibly a better
70:46:00 place but i won’t make it true at all or they won’t be even evidence that it’s
70:50:00 TRUE
70:51:00 so yes maybe there were more Christians the world would be better but that’s not
70:55:00 evidence that what they believe is true if you know what I mean yeah I was just
71:01:00 trying to get at the definition of love as an act of the will vs love is a
71:05:00 biological chemical I mean state that i try to love people either i love them or
71:12:00 I don’t love them I don’t choose that when you say love you say you want to
71:17:00 what you want you want what’s best for them you will they’re good
71:19:00 you will they’re good i’m using this definition i do love quite a bit of
71:23:00 people actually I wish most people would actually do well there’s only a very
71:28:00 very few amount of people that I wish they wouldn’t do well I’d like it’s
71:33:00 really really really rare you know since I yeah in that sense I do love but
71:37:00 that’s not what i mean by love actually I mean we have a different definition so
71:41:00 thanks
71:42:00 you want you want more no yeah you nailed it haha

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